Breaking the Blocks
Hi!
Thanks for stopping by! Life is tough, and I think this podcast might offer you some relief. My aim? To inspire you to overcome some of your own blocks through the inspirational, honest, and at times, downright raw conversations with some wonderful guests, not huge celebrities, regular people like you and I. Let’s see how they have overcome the difficulties in their lives and offer you some advice and more importantly hope.
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www.craftymonkies.com
www.rachelpierman.com
Breaking the Blocks
Breaking Through: Art, Healing, and Redemption in Women's Prison
Sarah Humphreys transforms lives teaching arts and crafts in a women's prison, helping incarcerated women rebuild their identities through creativity. Working with individuals who've experienced trauma and abuse, she creates a sensory sanctuary where women who arrive saying "I can't" leave as proud creators with newfound confidence and purpose.
• Teaching in prison presents unique challenges with scissors and supplies requiring strict protocols
• Around 75% of women in prison have mental health concerns and most have experienced childhood trauma
• Sarah's classroom serves as a sensory haven with soft textiles, comforting scents, and supportive community
• A professional shoplifter achieved a breakthrough by later buying art supplies instead of stealing them
• Sarah introduces women to female artists who faced similar challenges, expanding their sense of possibility
• The Red Flag Project collects textile flags bearing phrases from abusive relationships, creating awareness around domestic violence
• Women in prison often face judgment as "imperfect victims" when they've experienced domestic abuse
• Creative activities build resilience, self-belief and new identities beyond "criminal"
• Prison crafting creates ripple effects, potentially breaking generational cycles of trauma
• The crafting community regularly donates supplies, showing incarcerated women they're not forgotten
If you're interested in supporting the Red Flag Project, please check the show notes for details on how to create and submit your own flag to help raise awareness about domestic violence. For those experiencing abuse, support resources are listed below.
To find out Full details about the red flags and how to get involved: Click below
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1DW9ldQmwNWqAuyCJChrPNGX16TIDOn-3?usp=sharing
Follow Sarah on Instagram @edwardandthewhitebear
Book mentioned In Control: Dangerous Relationships and How They End in Murder : Smith, Jane Monckton: Amazon.co.uk: Books
Koestler Arts | Unlock the talent inside
If you need help:
https://www.nationaldahelpline.org.uk/
This is Breaking the Blocks and I'm your host, Rachel Pearman.
Speaker 2:We see in our court system, we see in the tabloid played out celebrity relationships. If you do not fit the mould of a perfect victim, society says did she bring that on herself?
Speaker 1:My guest today is Sarah Humphries, and she is talking about something that I have never come across in my life, not even thought about. She works in the prison service and she teaches arts and crafts. So in this interview today we talk about the amazing prisoners, the ladies that she's working with, the challenges they have to overcome, but what these lessons are giving to them. The challenges they have to overcome, but what these lessons are giving to them. In one word I would say it's hope. Another word could be faith, but definitely personal development, and she has some very interesting stories to tell. I will say that also in this interview we do talk about domestic violence and toxic masculinity. Although I appreciate that both women and men can be victims of domestic violence. We do touch upon that in the chat. Another really important part of the interview is the red flag incentive. I'm not going to talk about it too much here because if you listen to the interview you will hear all about it. The details are below if you would like to send Sarah a red flag, and I'll also time code below the part of the interview about the red flag project if you would specifically like to get involved with that. And one final point to say is that if you are suffering from any kind of physical or mental abuse, I am dropping some support lines for you in the box below. I'm so sorry that you are suffering, but please know that there is support. I know it's very difficult to reach out and I know that there are so many tragic endings to stories of people suffering from abuse where they end up being murdered by their partners. But if you can reach out, if there is someone that you can go to for support, please do. I'm sending you all the best, best. Let's listen to how some women are overcoming their blocks.
Speaker 1:Oh, so, here we are in the breaking the block studio and the lovely carter is joining us today, and I've got the main guest, although I feel like carter is going to make a big impression on us throughout. Carter is Sarah's cat. Indeed, we've heard that Carter, sadly, is blind and old and wants a little bit of attention. There is nothing wrong with that. So welcome Carter, but also welcome to lovely Sarah. Sarah Humphries Now I have to say Sarah, because you're sitting there stroking Carter. It reminds me of Mike myers in the film. What's the film it's just got out of my head? Um, yes, yes, that film, that film where he's in his cat, um, and it's like this yeah that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, austin Powers, austin Powers. There you go, yeah, groovy. Well, that's what it looks like at the moment. If you're not watching on YouTube, you'll have to go over and have a look if you want to see the effect. But anyway, lovely Sarah is joining us. This is the kind of show that we have, though, where you can bring your cat if you want and you can sit there. If that makes you feel more comfortable and makes Carter more comfortable, then we're all happy. So, anyway, here we are. Lovely Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today in the studio.
Speaker 1:Thank you for inviting me. You're very welcome. I love it when my guests come on and they tell me something and I think, oh, that's something I haven't covered before in this show. And you and I, sarah, we're talking, obviously, about Crafty Monkeys and working together with you as a quilter, which hopefully will happen at some point some way in the future. You work in the criminal justice sector. In the system, you're actually an adult educator, but what's interesting is that you're bringing your quilting and your love of fabric and making into that sector.
Speaker 1:You work in a female prison. That's right, isn't it? That's right? Yep, a female prison. That's right, isn't it? That's right? Yeah, yes. So obviously we're not going to give away specific details in this interview today and tell deeply personal stories, but I am hoping that you can give us a little idea of what it is like to work in that sort of environment and how your lovely quilts and creations and your creative expression with these ladies is helping them, because, as we know, in life we all make mistakes. We all have to learn from our mistakes. A lot of mistakes are made because we've suffered from trauma and I'm sure that your people that you're working with, your ladies, the women in the prison have mostly been through terrible trauma in their life and in a difficult situation.
Speaker 1:So lots of empathy in that in that way. But let's go back to you, sarah, and your creative beginnings and and where it started for you, because you did say to me that you also started quilting because of a difficult start in your life or a difficult period.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a family who all crafted. The worst thing you could say to my mother was that you were bored, she couldn't, she couldn't bear it because we had books, we had crafts. But you know, we had a very fortunate childhood so I had all of these things and we dabbled with all sorts of crafts and we lived in West Yorkshire and I grew up in West Yorkshire and then my father wasn't a miner but he did work for the coal board. He lost his job in the late 80s, early 90s. The decision was made that the family was going to move to Nottingham where my father was able to work as an adult. I totally understand that decision.
Speaker 2:But as a 12 year old who had done two terms at high school and then was moved to an entirely different place, I had this weird Yorkshire accent. I used words that nobody else used. I didn't know the slang in Nottingham, I didn't know the fashions in Nottingham and I come into my well. It was the first year of secondary school but the third term and I come into my well, it was the first year of secondary school but the third term everybody's got their friend, everybody's got the person they sit next to, and it was awful, it was just I don't even know the word. You know I was safe, my family was safe, but at that age it's all about friendships, it's all about what's going on for you in school, as women so often do.
Speaker 2:My mother felt so guilty, so she's going to work and yet obviously they've made the decisions for the right reasons. So this went on for a while and my mother, being crafty, thought I've got to get out at least one night a month just to do something different and for her mental well-being. So she was a trained embroiderer and she thought I'll find an embroidery group. Couldn't find that, but did find a quilt making group and thought it's got to be similar. So she started going to this group and it wasn't very long before there was a quilter giving a talk on a feminist piece of work that she'd done and I am, and always have been, strongly feminist. And she said come and listen to this talk. I think you will enjoy it.
Speaker 2:So I went to hear the talk and absolutely fell in love with the quilts, the women who were there, the community, the women who were there, the community. Um, there I am, this 12 year old, angry down teenager, and I just found this group who was so welcoming, so non-judgmental, and it just felt like the right thing. It felt like I was what I wanted to do. So I very quickly decided I was going to make my first quilt and these women brought me bags and bags and bags of fabric to help me with that first quilt and I'm late 40s and I've never, ever looked back.
Speaker 1:I've been quilting since then. Amazing, how do you think that changed you, that experience? Because obviously you said, yes, it was difficult, you're moving, your peer group, etc. Etc. But then your mom got you into the quilting but did that isolation and loneliness sort of continue, or were you able, through that group, to find your identity again?
Speaker 2:I mean, I know you were very young and it's a lot you know quite some time ago, but I think what, what it did, do it made me, like you say that identity and I am fascinated by identity I was always going to be weird in some people's eyes.
Speaker 2:I was a 15 year old who made quilts. I, you know, I had all of those things and I think I learned that, while, yes, you care what people think, that there's a lot of joy to be found in just following your own path, regardless of what people think. It's easy to be cynical and it's easy to be dismissive of people who are passionate about anything, whatever their hobby is, and I think I learned quite early on that the people who are dismissing those of us who have a passion, they're really the ones that are missing out. I also think, as an adult, I hate cliqueness, I hate people bullying people, I hate people leaving people out, and that's always been a big driver for me in any group I'm in and I have found and I know not everybody will get the same experience, but I have found in the quilting world that the vast majority of people want to welcome other people in.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting, I think, that there are sort of roadmaps along the way, aren't there in our life? There are signposts and you know with you it's quite amazing that your signpost was very big, bold and large at age 12, because it went female community, working together with the crafting, as you say, empowering each other, and that's where you've ended up in your job. So it's quite amazing that you stumbled across it at age 12, because it takes most people years and years and years. But I do think you're right. I think a lot of people who pull other people down or criticize I was listening to something the other day, actually, and somebody was saying exactly that that when you say, for example, you paint a picture, and someone goes, oh, I wouldn't have used yellow there. And you turn around and go do you paint? No, it's.
Speaker 1:It's people who don't do are often the ones who tell you how you should do, and it's because they have not found that thing within themselves. They're lacking something in themselves and then they pull it apart in people who have found themselves, because it's you hold a mirror up to people, don't you? You know they and people find it infuriating and you're reflecting back to someone what they haven't got in themselves, and so that's why that's where I think a lot of those comments come from, and what's stemming from that, of course, is it's pain. It's pain Absolutely. You know. You have to heal that pain. There are going to be people who will look at you and not like you just by the way you look. There'll be people who will look at you, give you a chance, listen to you are still not like you, but you just have to let those people go.
Speaker 1:Um, you find your tribe, and when you find your tribe, I absolutely agree, I have found some of the most incredible women I've ever met since I've been running my company and having all these faces flooding into the Zoom classes every week and the retreats and things like that. So let's now talk about your work that you're doing at the moment. I haven't met anybody who certainly worked within a female prison. How did you get involved with that? Did you just answer a job advert or was it something that you really wanted to do?
Speaker 2:Neither, and I've heard you say to people. You know you kind of find your path and I am not a person with life ambitions. I go from one thing I find interesting and rewarding to the next. So after I had done my university degree, I trained as an administrator, admin manager and I did a job for the local council doing that, and then a promotion came or what would have been a promotion came up, and it was for the probation service. It's one of those worlds where when people find out that you work in it, you get so many questions Because I think if you've never known anybody who has even been to court for something or has been arrested, then it feels like a very other world. I don't think I'd ever thought about it, but you suddenly go. I'm enjoying this. This is really good fun. I am meeting people who I would never normally meet and I believe you can learn from anyone, and I was just learning about how different some people's lives are, how different some people's worlds are, so I'd kind of gone into that. And then I spent some time working for a children's charity with children who were coming out of care. So there's a statutory period between 16 and usually 21. And something like a third of people in prison have been through the care system. So there's massive, massive overlap.
Speaker 2:And with this project again, I was doing administration. The young people who we saw most were the ones who were facing the biggest challenges. The project I worked on was really positive and I wanted to do something positive. But I knew I wanted to do something with people in the criminal justice system. And then I saw this advert for teaching in prisons and that felt like the right thing. I knew I didn't want to be uniformed staff, I didn't want to be dealing with sentencing or you know any of that front end stuff, but teaching just I saw it, I thought, yeah, that is, that's the next thing.
Speaker 2:At that time this is 18 years ago maybe I started working in men's prisons. I did my teacher training as an adult educator and I taught all sorts. I've taught maths, I've taught English quite badly and I just loved it. I loved the interaction with people.
Speaker 2:Sometimes prisons are the most bizarre environment. The smallest things are hysterically funny. You deal with great tragedy, but you deal with great kindness as well. You deal with the unexpected all of the time and I truly believe that every one of us who works in a prison is privileged because we meet the widest range of people, much more so than I think people do, probably in hospitals and the health service, but generally our lives can end up kind of quite limited to people who are like us. And yeah, prisons they either suit you or they don't. I think sometimes you have staff start, they last a week and they say this is not for me. I knew that this was what made me happy. About three years ago now I saw this advert for a vocational instructor, which is my job title, working in a women's prison and delivering basically kind of life skills, but through the medium of art and craft, and it just felt like the right thing. Do you know?
Speaker 1:I've just had a thought there well, one thing that we all need as quilters are scissors. Yeah, so are you allowed to use things like that?
Speaker 2:Yes. So everything's very carefully controlled. So scissors, any tools within a prison setting are catalogued. We know exactly what we've got. They're locked away in a cabinet in my craft room classroom. At the beginning and end of every session I have to make sure they're there. I have to sign to make sure that they're there. But within the classroom setting and this often worries people who can't imagine it within the classroom setting yes, everybody will have scissors, might have a rotary cutter out, will have needles out.
Speaker 2:My women value what they are able to do so much that I cannot imagine 99.9% of them would ever do anything to put this offer in jeopardy. So they are very respectful down to. They all know there's one cabinet for paper scissors and one cabinet for fabric scissors and the only time they'll see me panic is if I see somebody cutting paper with my fabric scissors and I go and everybody looks and they all know. They all know what I mean, but they they monitor that for me. So if I've got someone in who's a bit newer, somebody will say just just don't cut paper with those yeah they're very, very respectful of the opportunity and what we have available.
Speaker 2:Where it is more difficult is when you're in prison. You have a huge amount of time with not a huge amount to do so. I have one lady who loves cross stitching and she'll cross stitch when she's behind a door, but she has to cut her threads with nail clippers because she can't have scissors. You know a lot of people cut their fringes with nail clippers because you can't have scissors. So that's you know. In a workshop setting it's very controllable. Outside of that, unfortunately, even though women are learning these great skills that can be a really positive use for their leisure time, they're not able to have the resources while they're in prison to do everything that they'd like to do so, these ladies, right.
Speaker 1:so I'm now visualising this lady you know, been locked into her cell and she's doing her cross stitch, and already there are lots of images going through my head and I feel like they're all a dichotomy, because this is something you don't imagine to hear. There are lots of images going through my head and I feel like they're all a dichotomy, because this is something you don't imagine to hear. But can I ask you, what sort of crimes are these people in prison for? Is it a range, or is this kind of like one of those, almost like what are they called those? They're not free prisons, but you know where it's open, an open prison, I mean. What are some of the sort of, you know, crimes that these people have committed?
Speaker 2:When we look at the prison population in the UK, less than 5% of the prison population is women. So the system is very much set up for male prisoners. So we've got 100 and something 109, maybe 110 prisons. I will probably be wrong on that, but it is just over the 100 mark. About 100 of those are men's prisons. So the male estate is very much more separated by length of sentence and risk levels and so on. So you have high security through to open and various things in between.
Speaker 2:Because there are so few women in prison normally less than 5,000, prisons have to be much more adaptable to a wider range of situations. So for women we only have open or closed. So an open prison is one where women may go out to work. They may start to do some resettlement activities, overnights with family, for example. So I'm in a closed prison. So that is all of the female offenders who have been sentenced to a custodial sentence or have been remanded into custody. So it could be that they're there for two weeks for shoplifting. It could be that they're there for 30 years for a very violent crime or anything in between. A huge number of women are in for very short sentences. A huge number are in for non-violent offences, low level but persistent offending. So you're often talking about shoplifting, more minor drug offences and fraud, things like that. So the majority of the female population is at that end of things. But we do also have people who are on long sentences, who've committed violent offences, but that is the minority.
Speaker 1:You've worked with some of those people who have committed serious offences and they're in for many, many years. First of all, do people have to come to your classes or can they choose?
Speaker 2:With my classroom. It's entirely voluntary to sign up for it. If you have signed up for it, you're expected to attend, because otherwise that place could have gone to somebody else. But as soon as a woman says to me, do you know what, sarah, this is not for me, or I want to go and learn something else, then yeah, not a bother, because I'm not accredited, so I don't need to get them through a qualification. There's not a minimum amount of time. What percentage stay with you? Do you think Over 95%?
Speaker 2:The main barriers to coming to my class are mental health concerns. So people who are dealing with such high levels of anxiety or depression that getting anywhere and being with people seems too much. The less you have and I think this is a lesson for us all the less you have, the more resourceful and creative you are. So I have found female prisoners to be so kind and supportive of one another and they totally recognize that small things have a massive impact. So they love to make each other birthday cards or you know, sorry, you're having a bad time of it, but so people love that. A lot of the women perhaps can knit or crochet. Sometimes that's because they've done a number of prison sentences and they've learned it along the way. Cross stitch is popular, with some Coloring puzzles, kind of that mindful stuff that's very popular. And just that time and space to to try things and develop things yeah, it's huge. So the creativity is there, the enjoyment for creating is there.
Speaker 1:They just need the help and support very often what do you notice in these ladies when they're going through the creative process with you?
Speaker 2:if I can just go back a little bit to the challenges that a lot of particularly women in prison face. About three quarters of the women report mental health concerns. We have about 40 percent who have substance misuse problems, abuse and trauma. Most of the women I work with have got trauma in their childhood or formative years. As I said, about a third have spent time in the care system. So all of this abuse and trauma and traumatic events affect your self-esteem, it affects your confidence, it affects your identity and a big part of any positive activity and crafting and art is huge for this it starts to put those back in place.
Speaker 2:Women will come to me and instantly say I can't draw, I've never done this. I show them a sample of what we're going to do that session. I can't do that and that's their go to. I can't do that because they've been told they can't do it.
Speaker 2:A lot of the time the education history is very poor. With a lot of my women. They absented themselves from school or they were carers from a very young age of parents perhaps with substance misuse problems or mental health problems, and so they don't have those building blocks in place that a lot of us were fortunate enough to have. So they come with that real low self-confidence, low self-belief, and the activities I do with them are very much designed to be a challenge, but achievable. So if you think, at the beginning of the class I can't do that, but this is a safe space and I work so hard, and the women work so hard, to make my classroom a safe space. This is a safe space to try something new. This is a space in which I can get it wrong and I will be supported to put it right. They develop resilience, they develop self-belief and, because the project is achievable, at the end they're like oh my goodness, look what I have made, look how beautiful it is. Everybody in my class will tell you how beautiful it is. Everyone will look across love what you've used there, love your colours. That's brilliant. And a lot of my learners will really recognise the women who are at the beginning of their journey or have got learning disabilities or whatever challenge, and they will totally factor that into their feedback. So the praise that they give each other, the support they give each other, is amazing. It's working on the support they give themselves which is the challenging bit. But they learn to take pride in what they've done. They learn to try things that feel a bit scary. They learn to persevere even if it looks like something's going wrong. The number of times I say, okay, take five minutes, just a few deep breaths. Nothing really bad can happen. It's only fabric or it's only paper, but none of us like getting it wrong.
Speaker 2:A big part of what we have going on in my class. It is at the far end of the establishment, so it's one of the quietest areas anyway, and the women so value it. Prisons are really noisy places places. Having hundreds of people in any establishment makes it noisy. So to be able to come somewhere where sometimes there's silence, where people move a little bit more slower, where people aren't shouting just because of distance. We all sit around one table and that's a safety thing. A lot of people struggle with having people behind them or not being able to see what's going on, because you are hypervigilant in prison so we can all relax.
Speaker 2:I have a lovely big light room. I have a settee, so if you need time out you can go and sit there and then you're still in the group, but you're just physically showing that you need some time. I have quilts in there. The women know they can wrap themselves up in the quilts. I have an array of soft toys, many of which have been made and donated by the women.
Speaker 2:You know the self-soothing of giving one of my dinosaurs a cuddle, or I've got a furry spider which people have a bit of a love hate relationship with. But it's that tactile prisons are short of sensory things. All the surfaces are hard walls, bars, gates. The women are very aware of scent because the smells of food and cleaning equipment and so on is the dominating thing. And they come into class and they appreciate just if I put perfume on, because it's a different smell. So everything in my class is set up to be a different sensory experience and that women can access that as they need to and just the you see people come down, you see people relax and very quickly they give that to other people.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean, there are so many important things to think about in what you've just said, because I think we all have this image. You know, I remember my mom used to watch that that program years ago from australia, cell block h or something, yeah. So you imagine that all these women are just going to be at each other all the time, and yet now you've got this group of really supportive women. But I absolutely love what you say and I really think that yours is such a strong example of what we're all trying to say anybody who's creative to the regular, everyday audience that we're dealing with when we talk about how good creativity is for our mental health, because we all say it's good for your mental health and you know you can. Almost it's like a meditative practice and it gives you confidence. Practice and it gives you confidence. But for these ladies, as you say, it really does show you how important that is and how right we are when we say that because they haven't had those foundations, they haven't had those building blocks, and so, for you know, this is what's. It's giving that back to them and that is that's fantastic, because that is worth so much more than a qualification in maths or English, I personally feel, because when they come out, yeah, they might be qualified in something, but who's going to give them a chance? Anyway, they're not going to walk into the city and start working in a front, in a, in a finance department, because they've just got GCSE maths in prison. So I feel like giving these ladies this inner confidence and this self-belief. I love it when you say that you know they look at something and go I can't do that, I can't do that and you go. Yes, you can and you will. And then they do and they go. I did that. And it's that support from the ladies, it's that praise that they get.
Speaker 1:These are all such important things that we have, hopefully, as children and, as you say, a lot of people have been through the care system are in prisons. As you said, the majority of cases yes, there are cases where I think people are probably just born with a brain that does not function like the rest of us and they have no empathy and sympathy and no care about human life and go off and commit horrendous, atrocious crimes. But there are a lot of people in prison who have had dreadful starts to their life and just see no other way out other than to commit crimes. You know, to either physically support themselves, feed themselves or just filled with rage. Quite frankly, yeah, this has happened to them. Why did this happen to them? When they were children?
Speaker 2:and then this, and then these crimes are committed it's something we talk about a lot, which is that you can be both a victim and a perpetrator. We, we are never saying that what people have done is okay. If we can understand it, we can start to do something about it?
Speaker 1:do you have any story you can share or anything that comes to mind about a particular act of kindness? Another one would be the transformation in someone, and then anything that has really moved you.
Speaker 2:One story I love and it's a small thing but I think it shows what we do. I taught a lady on maybe two of her sentences who similar age to me and she was a professional shoplifter. She would totally own that and she accepted prison as one of the byproducts of her career choice perhaps. So she'd been in and out of prison 20 plus times over her life. And she was amazing in my class because when I would get much younger women who were struggling, she would just tell them how it was. She was not mean, she was not aggressive, but she would just turn to them and go that's enough. Now you need to stop doing that. You need to stop saying whatever behavior they were exhibiting and they loved her, they absolutely adored her because she felt so safe, because they knew where they were with her.
Speaker 2:And she faced a massive personal tragedy herself and when she left the last time she left. So a lot of the women keep in touch. I got a message a few weeks later through one of her friends to let me know that she was still painting. She'd found she loved watercolor painting, so she was still doing that, which is a great positive use of her time and the second part of the message was tell Sarah I bought the paints myself. And it's that shift in identity because she would not have dreamt of paying money for something she could steal even six months before. But she had developed this identity as an artist and as a watercolour artist and part of that identity was clearly that she bought the paints herself, clearly that she bought the paints herself.
Speaker 1:And I think it sounds tiny, but it's such a shift in how we view ourselves and the fact that she wrote that to you as well, the fact that she she wrote that and tell her I bought those paints myself really moved me.
Speaker 2:It's really moved yeah, I love it. It's the gratitude, and I know again, you talk about gratitude. I think if I had had some of the experiences and traumas these women have, I would be a lot angrier than they are. And the gratitude that they express for a kind word, for a generous gesture, for learning something new is immense. And the learning is another one that I love. I show them work by female artists and makers, and I only show them female artists and makers because we did men at school, didn't we? Every history was male, art was male and so on. So we look at female artists and makers from every period of history, from every geographical area, and we learn how to look at art and we learn how to critique art and analyze art. And we we often look at women who perhaps faced similar challenges to what my learners have faced.
Speaker 2:So Tracy Emin is a favorite because the rawness of her emotion in her work the women find so accessible. And obviously Tracey Emin has battled with her own traumas in her life and addiction and so on. And when she got her damehood one of the women came in that morning. She'd been watching the news as she was getting ready and she said that woman with the bed. She was on the news and just to and I think we take it for granted. But to see people on the telly and think I know something about them, I know something about their art. That's massive. It opens up such an interest in the world but also tells you you have the right to go to an art gallery, you have the right to have an opinion on what you see there, you can have a favourite artist. When the women tell me things like this you know I really love Frida Kahlo or whatever it is, it's like, yes, you are starting to make choices and you are starting to see yourself as an artist or a maker or an art appreciator, and very often previously their identity has been I'm just a criminal, I'm not wanted, and so I love that shift. But they do it for themselves. I can only ever do so much. I can only ever open those doors and provide the support. But they have to want to come and they have to want to take it, and they really do. And some women it takes them longer. You know I have people that they come back, because the nature of short sentences is often people bounce in and out of prison and they come back and I get a message, so-and-so's back. She wants to come back to class, which is amazing as well, and people do it in their own time, and I think that's one of the big things for me which I learned very early on.
Speaker 2:In this kind of work. It's not up to me to judge. People have been judged, they were judged in court. They will be judged by a lot of people. But those of us who work in the criminal justice system, we're not there to judge. We are there to support, to help, yes, to follow the rules and make sure that people follow the rules. Make sure people are safe here to judge, and we support women in not judging themselves. They can want to make changes without saying I'm a bad person. They can say I've made the wrong choices, I may have hurt people, but that doesn't have to be all all that I am or who I am.
Speaker 1:I can make different choices, yeah and this is years and years and years of struggles for them. They've actually been punished, probably as little children you know. They were probably told from being little that you don't go to art galleries people like us don't go to art galleries, or you don't. You know you're not intelligent enough, you're stupid, you're ugly, you're worthless. You know these are all sorts of things that they will have been told all through their lives and so that's what they believe and and this is why it's so important the work you're doing to turn around and go. No, that's not right. That's not who you are. You can be something else. So it's really, really important. I'm really moved by that story still of that lady saying and I bought them myself, that's just so. Pat on the back to her and massive props, whoever she is Just amazing. It's on the flip side. I mean I don't want to go there really, but on the flip side, is there any body who you saw had this potential or was on the verge of a breakthrough?
Speaker 2:I believe and have always believed whatever I have taught, that for some people it's a really, really long game.
Speaker 2:That and when I have worked with children in the care system, people in the criminal justice system, we come to things in our own time and it might be that in 10 years time someone says I remember when I did that, or I remember someone saying to me you've worked really hard at that, you've, you've shown a talent for colour, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:And I think and this is not just in this world, it's for all of us we never truly know the impact we have on someone. In the same way that a mean, spiteful comment can sit with somebody for years support, unconditional regard, encouragement we never really know when that will hit home to someone. Yes, it breaks my heart when people come back, particularly when I thought they were in the right headspace, that they'd got it sorted, that they wanted to be clean or they wanted a different life or they were going to start at college or they had a job. And all of us feel that it's heartbreaking when people come back but you never really know. You pick yourself up and we try again. The kindness I've shown them allows them to be kind to somebody else at a time they really knew.
Speaker 1:If you've inspired one person in this world, then you have done your job. You can go out absolutely on your final day on this earth and go. Well, well, I inspired. Barbara Liked what I did, so there you go. That's what it is Definitely. Now let's talk about something else that you do as well, because when you and I chatted, you said have you heard about the red flag? Is it a charity? You say it was, or how did you phrase it? The red flag.
Speaker 2:It's a project.
Speaker 1:It's an art project that we've been doing and I said no. And then you told me briefly about it and I said, okay, we've got to talk about this on the show because I think this is fantastic and if anybody is listening to this podcast right now, you can still get involved in this incentive. Of course, it ties into your prisoners, who will have many of them suffered from an early from abuse early on in their lives or in their relationships. So tell me what this, the red flag incentive, is.
Speaker 2:Okay. So York St John University. There is a drama lecturer there who has worked in a prison partnership for many, many years now and she does various drama initiatives with the women in prison and there's different emphasis but through that there's a wider network of creative people who've been involved. So last year the women got to see a short film. It was directed by Phyllida Lloyd of Mamma Mia fame, and Phyllida came and worked with the women after they'd seen this film and various some of the students came and so on. There was a whole drama project going on around domestically violent relationships, which the film was about, and about safe homes for women and about fleeing domestic violence. A lot of women watched this film.
Speaker 2:Women in my classes did visual art related to the themes of the film. One of my groups made a quilt about safe homes and safe relationships and two of my groups worked on red flags. So this is the notion of the red flag the early warning signs in a relationship that there might be coercive or controlling elements. Now I'm always very careful to say there is nothing at all to say that people should be responsible for spotting red flags. I think for a large range of reasons, women are particularly women. I know it happens to men as well, but women are socialised to ignore red flags. We see it in films I drive my friends mad with this. This is a bit of an aside Beauty and the Beast. Her father put her into a castle to save his own life with an angry, violent individual, and she had to stop him being violent and angry through showing him kindness. That is not a good start to a relationship. But yet the Disney princess she was lovely enough that he could be nice and it's an extreme example. Or some people tell me I'm being ridiculous, but women are told that we can help men or we can stop them being jealous if we do or don't do certain things, and so on. So there's all the social stuff. And then a lot of the women who I work with have not had the role models when they were children of what a healthy, positive relationship looks like, and so they are not in a place to recognize the stuff that is that red flag about, um, problematic relationships. So after we'd watched the film, we started talking and they were so brave and honest in the way that they discussed things that had happened to them, some of the things that boyfriends and partners have said to them and I had some really quite young women at the time, so not being allowed to wear makeup, critique of what you were wearing, critique of friends and often, particularly the younger ones, were saying they hadn't really realized it wasn't okay and often they hadn't told someone before. And a lot of these women want love and security and comfort, as we all do, but perhaps are not finding it in the right places. So we started to make red flags and they are.
Speaker 2:I'm a quilter, so I'm in inches, maybe about four by six inches and they might be like bunting or rectangular flags made of any red fabrics. Ribbons they're all textile and they include one or more words on them about something that was said to you or something you've heard or something a friend has experienced. I kept it very open and then they've got ribbons so we can tie them together. So we are joining people's experiences. So I then went out to my community, my quilting and craft community, and said would anybody like to contribute? And the responses I got were amazing. So many people got in touch, so many women got in touch and said I will make a flag, and then they would tell me what had happened to them, perhaps 30 years ago, what they had seen happen to somebody, what was currently happening to their daughter, their niece, their neighbor, and they would put this on a flag. And some of them were quite detailed or are quite detailed. Some of them are deliberately quite opaque, some were sent to me anonymously and they tie together because the experience is virtually universal.
Speaker 2:It's women who, to the outside world, seem sorted and with it and they might be in an amazing relationship now. They may have been in that relationship for 20 or 30 years, but they still have experienced this in the past. Or they have supported a female colleague who has gone through it and I can remember saying this as a teenager you, you know, if someone hit me I'd be gone. But it doesn't start with that. Somebody's self-belief is so destroyed by the time physical violence starts that they don't know which way is up. They cannot envisage what they would have to do to leave that relationship, notwithstanding, of course, that for a lot of women fleeing domestic violence, that is the most risky time when people say, why don't they just leave?
Speaker 2:Women get killed for leaving, and it's universal and it happens in every country. This is like my pipe dream, but you know, putting it out there in the universe, the turbine hall at the Tate Modern. I would like to fill that with row after row of red flags to say this is not okay. Women are going through this, men are going through it as well. But you know, the epidemic of violence against women and girls is huge and we do not seem to be able to do anything about it.
Speaker 2:Every woman who is killed by a partner, ex-partner, father, brother, is presented in the news as if it's an isolated incident. And we are not doing our young men any favours if we are not giving them the resources to deal with their emotions, their feelings, in a way that doesn't involve hurting somebody else. So I've took them to a Labour Party event because it is a priority for the Labour government to address violence against women and girls. So in Leicestershire each year, to coincide with the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence, they have an exhibition in a large shopping centre. So there is all sorts of art that has been made by survivors of domestic violence, by the children in families where that's experienced, and indeed by perpetrators who have gone through learning themselves, and I was invited to show the red flags there and that's an amazing project, because people who are experiencing controlling relationships or domestic abuse are sometimes tracked. They have to explain where they've been and, of course, you can go shopping. That feels like a safe activity. So the resource is there so that people can pop in and say I need help, I need advice, I need support.
Speaker 2:They've just been handed over to the woven festival, which is in kirklees, which celebrates the the area's textile heritage. June, july, they will be on display. If anybody thinks, yep, that speaks to me. I want to make a flag, absolutely get in touch. I've got a post office box and, um, yeah, people, I've got flags from um other countries in europe. I've got flags from america, you know. So it's, it's brilliant, and this is both testament to the amazing community of crafters that there are around the world, but also shows how problematic this issue is as well.
Speaker 1:Well, I will put all the details in the description box on YouTube and on the podcast host, so every platform will have the details of how to get a hold of you. If somebody wants to make 10 flags, can they make 10 flags, absolutely in terms of phrases. I mean so because we might have some people in our community who have never experienced this but think this is something I want to provide and they could just maybe, you know, write some sentences on there or research things that I mean. If you, just if you typed into Google gaslighting phrases, well, there you go. There's some things, but that's what we'll do. We'll try and raise awareness, because I would love to stand there in the turbine gallery and see that wall of red flags, because I personally, well, I've been through it myself and also have been around people who have used those things. Oh, you're too sensitive. I was only joking, I didn't mean it. And it's those phrases that's like you say, that's how it starts. It's those phrases where it begins and it just, it carries on, it builds and builds and then, as you say, it starts to be well.
Speaker 1:You're making me feel this way, and I remember doing therapy many, many, many years ago, and I remember my therapist saying to me no one can make you feel anything. And I disagreed. I was like, what are you talking about? But they made me feel angry.
Speaker 1:And it's only you know, with years of kind of working on myself, that I've realized yeah, you're absolutely right, you're responsible, going back to the beast. You're responsible for your own feelings, you're responsible for controlling your emotions, you're responsible for dealing with your emotions. You're responsible for balancing yourself out. No one else is responsible for that and no one else is there to rescue you or change you either. You can't change anyone. They have to change themselves and their behavior. And that's when, in those early days, that's when, if you can spot the red flags, you have to get out if that behavior is not changing, because it's just going to escalate. But, as you've said, it is so difficult because don't forget that a lot of these people who are one day saying you're making me jealous or whatever, the next day will be saying how wonderful you are and love bombing you, and that's definitely that you're.
Speaker 1:I once saw this written that when you're dealing with someone who has got that sort of personality, those traits the gaslighter, the manipulator it's like you're at the slot machine and you keep putting money in and pulling, waiting for the payout, and then you get the payout and you go, oh well, I'll probably get another payout. So you keep putting the money in, but then you lose and you lose and you lose and you lose, but then you want to win, you want to win, so you keep going.
Speaker 2:And that's such a good analogy, because if the perpetrators were awful all the time, it would be easy. But they're not, and many of them are damaged.
Speaker 1:I believe that if you are physically violent, you yourself are very insecure and you know and have a low self-worth and you're angry about something A good relationship you elevate each other.
Speaker 2:You can't change somebody's feelings, but you can want to be better because you're with that person. Yes, I absolutely agree.
Speaker 1:You have to have something going on for you if you want to do that to somebody else, if you want to hurt somebody else, if you want to hurt people and you get pleasure from hurting other people, you are a deeply hurt person yourself because you're projecting your pain onto other people. You want people to feel how you feel inside. You feel worthless, you feel helpless, and it's quite often the case that that this starts by this person being attracted. It's like narcissist attractors is someone who is full of confidence and life and personality and has great friends and a great life, and this narcissist probably wants to aspire to be like that person but then realizes that it can't be like that person because they're so damaged.
Speaker 2:So what they do is they bring that person down to that level every time somebody shares their experience, it says this is something that should be talked about, it's not something to be ashamed of. I think that's another problem we have, and particularly for the women I work with as well. We are not perfect victims. Somebody who is sweet and innocent looking and never did anything wrong in their life, we can go with them being a victim. But we see in our court system, we see in the tabloid played out celebrity relationships.
Speaker 2:If you do not fit the mold of a perfect victim, society says did she bring that on herself? Did she wind him up? Did she make him jealous? And it's very hard to untangle when, yes, she might be doing not great stuff, but he's doing not great stuff as well. Or same sex relationships as well. And sometimes the perpetrators of violence or often the perpetrators of violence will seek out somebody who is easier to target. Jane Moncton Smith I'll have to remember the name of the book, but she's an amazing writer and she talks about and researcher, academic researcher. She talks about domestically violent relationships and the pathway that can lead to femicide and she says that we probably massively underestimate the number of women who are killed in relationships because some of them are made to look like accidents, drug overdoses and so on, because if you are not a perfect victim, people are more likely to believe, oh, she got drunk and fell downstairs, or she overdosed, and that some perpetrators of femicide will do that.
Speaker 2:I don't think there's an excuse for physical violence ever there's not, and I think the other difference is the after effects of that. Is it lame, is it tearful apologies, it'll never happen again. Or is it a proper adult looking at what happened there and how is it not going to happen again? And, as I say, it's a conversation, isn't it? It's not tearful begging of this will this will never happen again, I promise. I promise doesn't do anything.
Speaker 1:Is there any flag that you've received with a phrase that has made you go?
Speaker 2:there's one with a ghost on and it's somebody's mother and she says my daughter became a shadow of her former self. I think this is the other thing that sometimes we don't fully appreciate. It's hell for the person who's living it, but equally it's hell for the people around them that can see it, possibly more than that person can see it, who cannot say too much because the perpetrator knows how to isolate their victim. Who is watching, in this woman's case and she contacted me anonymously is watching her bright, bubbly daughter become a shadow of her former self. And she wrote this letter to me and I sat and cried because it was so raw, because it's happening now and, as I said at the beginning, the ability mothers have to feel guilty, to feel that they should have done something different, and to watch someone you love be torn apart by another person. That one, when it, when it came, was amazingly powerful, amazingly moving. But every single one and every woman who has spoken to me or emailed me or written to me and shared something about herself, and some of the you know people I've never met in my life or I've met through this project, is is amazing and I think women again, it's this theme. Through this, this discussion, the support women offer each other, even when they are struggling, is mind-blowing, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, the other case that is so shocking is the Giselle Pellicot case in France, where so many men have perpetrated abuse and she is possibly the bravest woman I have ever come across in my life, and um that, that expression. I can't speak French, but in English. Shame must change sides. It is not for a victim of violence or sexual abuse to be ashamed, it is for the perpetrator. And I wow. I mean that I never ceased to be horrified at what she had gone through, but amazed at the strength that she could use that to help other people, yeah, and that she came out in public and, you know, said this had happened to her.
Speaker 1:But all of those men who queued up at the door to do it yeah, to do it, to have sex with a woman who was unconscious and she was my age, I think she was in her 50s yeah, and men from every walk of life, every job, every charter of society.
Speaker 1:Yeah and and another lady. My husband was telling me another lady just come out, uh, a man has just been. I think he's either been put into prison for a few years or I don't know, but the same thing. He was doing it to her. It wasn't um other people, it was just him doing it to her, but he would regularly do it and take photographs and things of her, his wife, and she said she's come out. And she said that when he told her it was like they were discussing whether to have lamb chops or chicken that night, because he literally went oh, by the way, I think I should tell you this now because I feel a bit guilty. So, uh, this has been happening for the last few years.
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously, you know we're married, you know, but but if you think it is, it's within our lifetime that rape in a marriage has been recognized as illegal in this country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, something has to change and all I can say is that you know you're doing amazing things in the world, sarah. You know, with the red flag incentive, let's try and get that going. Visualize usizers both, both standing there. Not that I've had a lot to do with it, but I'm going to be there. Oh, but you'll be more than welcome, I'll be in the crowd, but, yeah, let's try and get that going.
Speaker 1:But also just the fact that you are helping those women with your you know, your creative classes to have recovered from maybe some of the things that we're talking about, you are doing good and, as you've said, the ripples are that if those women haven't had children yet and they have children they will perhaps treat their children in a different way, maybe sit and craft with them. And, as we say, if we can just help one, two, three and and it's down the generations, because if that can change that generational curse, and then you're helping the next generations and the next, long after you've gone, you know you might have helped hundreds of people. Thank you, that's so kind, that's the way you have to look at it. Maybe thousands. So, yeah, thank you, amazing, amazing. Listen, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Is there anything else that you'd like to to say today in the um, in the before we finish I think the the other thing that I because I've jotted some bits down the other thing I wanted to say was how much I have learned for what I've done, spending time in my classroom crafting. I'm very much in the moment in a way that I'm not anywhere else, because you can't have a mobile phone when you're working in a prison, so you don't you're not distracted. So I love that. I've learned that I learn about honesty, about compassion from these women, and I know that I'm not always the expert there's always a power differential in situations like that but I'm not always the expert and I relish that.
Speaker 2:And women make choices about their crafting and I think why wouldn't do that? But I am there to support and then I see what they've made and they're so right. It was so much more amazing than I thought it was going to be. So, yeah, I am so grateful that I get to do what I do and also I get an amazing amount of donations Another you know joy of the crafting community. People who know me give me fabric and wool and art materials that they've no longer got any use for.
Speaker 2:And there's an amazing support out there from women for other women and I'm grateful to all of them as well, because it means a lot to the women I work with, that other people care about them, that other people want them to enjoy their crafting, that other people want them to have nice things, because it's easy when you're in prison to think that nobody cares, that you've forgotten, and every single person who sends a message of support or donates things or admires their work is yeah, everybody contributes. It's a communal effort and I will mention as well, if people don't know about it, kursla K-O-E-S-T-L-E-R. Kursla is a charity for people who are making art in prisons, in secure hospitals and so on, and they do amazing work and they have exhibition one every year at South Bank and then they so they've recently had one at the Baltic in Gateshead and again, just showing everybody that the art being made in prisons and other secure settings is amazing, is is such a good thing. I love that charity, so it's might be worth putting a link into them as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, and there is a Netflix documentary that's just come out isn't there? About quilters in prison, which is, yeah, is it today? It's might be worth putting a link into them. Yes, and there is a Netflix documentary that's just come out, isn't there? About quilters in prison, which is, yeah, is it today, is it? I don't know. Do you know? I've got a friend who's got contact with Netflix and about two years ago I said we need to do a documentary about quilting and now helping people. I didn't say prisons, but I said how it's helping people and their mental health and they were like, yeah, what is it? Just like old ladies with little granny squares, I mean no. And then, and then I couldn't believe it. When I got my phone, it said quilters on Netflix. But yeah, it is such an important thing. Okay, that's wonderful. So, uh, do you have a motto? It?
Speaker 2:is what's the worst that can happen? Now, obviously we've talked about all sorts of horrendous things that can happen and people say to me it could go wrong. And I'm like, yes, and then what? And there's not an answer. So I would say try stuff it'll be fine.
Speaker 1:And you know, I would add to yours and say what's the worst that can happen? It can go wrong, but that's when you learn. So definitely right good addition, yeah there's the. You know what is the worst that can happen. Nothing apart from as we've said. We can't. You know, we can't say whether serious is what we talked about, but we're talking about as you say. If you're frightened to go to the gym because people look at you, let them throw shade at you.
Speaker 2:You probably feel a bit hot anyway, so shade would be good so yeah, sit, sit in that restaurant by yourself, try that new craft, get on a bus to somewhere new, do the scary things and and see what happens well, I hope this wasn't scary for you today, or your cat he's a nightmare and I'm absolutely covered in dirt uh well, hopefully carter's enjoyed it as well and has felt soothed once again.
Speaker 1:That interview went into places. I had no idea it was going to go into places, that it did, but I think these are very important things to talk about. Absolutely, you know, this shouldn't be hidden in the shadows. It's got to come out. Um, we just keep talking and we just keep trying and keep working with people who are from a very disadvantaged start to hopefully give them a chance to break those cycles. So definitely so.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much thank you so much for inviting me and giving me the opportunity to to talk about what I do and what I welcome, and let's get those red flags made.
Speaker 1:Come on, we need more red flags. Let's.
Speaker 2:We need more red flags only the good ones, only the good ones.
Speaker 1:thank you just before you go, lovely listener, can I ask you a favor if you have a friend who you think would enjoy listening to this podcast, would you mind please telling them about it?
Speaker 1:It helps me to spread the word and you never know, they might get a life lesson out of it or, at the very least, just have a lovely 40 minutes of relaxing time for themselves. The second thing to say is that, if you have enjoyed this, it would really help me if you would give me a little quick like or a comment, especially if you're listening on one of the podcast platforms. It just means that when anybody lands on the page, they can see that people have reviewed it, they've liked it, enjoyed it and got something out of it. So if you wouldn't mind leaving me a review, that would be amazing. And the final thing to say is that if you are a business and you're thinking how do I get my message out there, well, you could do it on this podcast. All you have to do is reach out to me, rachel, at breakingtheblockscom. The details are below in the box. Thank you so much to everybody for listening and enjoying and saying the lovely things that you're saying.
