Episode 70: Dr. Anirban Basu, Andrew Pinkerton & Matt Arnold offer updates from Texas

On this episode of "Drilling Deeper," Kevin Yanik and Jack Kopanski share updates from the 72nd Texas Aggregates & Concrete Association (TACA) Annual Meeting. 

Jack was down in San Antonio for the event and spoke with Dr. Anirban Basu, CEO of Sage Policy Group; Andrew Pinkerton, president of TACA; and Matt Arnold, TACA chairman and vice president of operations at Knife River.

Basu explored the factors driving the construction industry economy of late, the exponential growth data centers are experiencing and what the rest of the year and beyond holds for the industry as a whole. He even provides some insight into his beloved Orioles' rough first half of the season, but why he still has hope for them this year.

Then, Pinkerton and Arnold offer a Texas-centric look at the aggregate industry. The duo shares highlights from a record-setting TACA Annual Meeting, outlines what continues to make Texas one of the top aggregate-producing states in the nation and what they're expecting from the second half of the year and into 2027.

There's plenty to hear in this action-packed episode of "Drilling Deeper." You won't want to miss it!

For 108 years, Pit & Quarry magazine has been the premier monthly aggregate processing information source. Through multiple platforms, we deliver the very latest in equipment and technology news and information that is critical for safely achieving the highest level of efficiency and profitability. Editors Kevin Yanik and Jack Kopanski cover the market in print, online and through e-newsletters. As respected industry insiders, they moderate the annual Pit & Quarry Roundtable & Conference and speak at industry conferences and meetings.
 
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome back into Drilling Deeper. Today we're bringing you conversations from the Texas Aggregates and Concrete Association's annual meeting, where my co-host Jack Kapanski sat down with an industry economist, a leading aggregate producer, and the executive director overseeing TACA, which advocates on behalf of producers in the nation's top crushed own producing state. We've got all that and more lined up on today's show. But first, a word from our episode sponsor.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

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SPEAKER_01 0:56

With that, let me formally welcome in my co-host Jack Kapansky. Jack, you're back from your home away from home, San Antonio. We're we're in Cleveland here, obviously, in northeast Ohio, but uh it sounded like it was a great TACA meeting, record setting. I know you went down there with our with our associate publisher, Dino Vitanz, and and uh what'd you think? That was your first time being a part of that that meeting and that big group down there with all those Texas aggregate and concrete producers.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yeah, yeah, no, I I certainly do uh I do love the Riverwalk. We talked about it probably multiple times on this show, and obviously we talk about it a lot in the office. How I I really enjoy being down at San Antonio. Um it was a great event, my first time being down to Taca. I know you and uh you and Dino, and I I'm sure Rob's gotten down there a time or two have have uh visited it, and you know, for being just such a massive association, obviously, with all the growth that Texas has been seeing, um, it was a really cool event. You know, it it it is it is very different from from a lot of other uh state association shows in that you know there aren't there aren't maybe as many exhibit uh exhibitors as some other state associations, but they did have a record number of exhibitors this year. Um a lot of good, you know, general sessions, information sessions. They have, you know, they had a concert at one point, you know, had the golf outing, everything involved. So it was a really really good time. I I I thoroughly enjoyed being down there, and uh yeah, uh Andrew, Andrew Pinkerton, president of Taco, was was super hospitable and and all of his staff were great to work with. So um, yeah, just a really just a really enjoyable show. Glad I was finally able to kind of check that one off my bucket list. And uh yeah, had had a really good conversation with uh with Dr. Ani Bombasu. Um we've worked with him many a time in his capacity as um chief economist with the Associated Builders and Contractors. So I got to talk to him a little bit about you know what's going on with the construction economy, and then sat down with Andrew Pinkerton and uh Matt Arnold, Vice President of Operations at Knife River, and the current uh chairman at TACA as of the end of uh as of the end of last week's meeting. So um very, very eventful, very eventful show. Really, really cool to again finally be down there. Nice to you know, it's it's I normally I would say get away from the cold weather, but it was I heard it was pretty pretty hot up here last week as well, pretty hot down in San Antonio, so probably all things all things about equal there. But no, it was it was it was awesome to uh to finally check out Taca and see what it was all about. So really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, we're gonna look forward to hearing later in the show from from Matt Arnold of Knife River and Andrew Pinkerton of of Taca. He's executive director of the the association down there. But but first and foremost, we've got on tap for you an interview with Anaban Basu. As you mentioned, I mean we we've been, you know, he's been on our radar here at Pit and Cory for for a number of years. I feel like we're we've used him as as a resource in the past. I feel like he's been on the show in some capacity. Is that right, Jack? We've this is episode 70, so I guess it's a blur at this stage, but but uh kind of at mid-year, you know, I was thinking it's an up this is an awesome opportun opportunity. You're going down to to Texas for the TACA meeting and and Anuban was basically a speaker or one of the keynotes down there. Um we're always wanted to know what's happening in key construction markets out there, agributers everywhere, you know, obviously have different dynamics, whether you're you know, core into the infrastructure side or there's some opportunity these days in residential or non-residential, but but uh I'm guessing what you heard from from Anuban was was maybe a little bit more zeroed in on what's happening in Texas, but maybe even a little bit broader brush strokes in terms of what's happening across the U.S. Jack?

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Yeah, absolutely. He he definitely gave some good insights into, you know, like you said, what's going on in Texas, gave a nice gave a nice overview. Um I always kind of enjoy our conversations, kind of going uh sector by sector, touching non-res, residential, non-building, um, and then kind of getting just sort of a uh a look at the construction economy as a whole. Um and and and he's always he's always great to talk with. You know, he he kind of brings a sense of levity, a sense of humor to to some of the conversations, and he yeah I appreciate that. And and I think he's he's one of the he he's someone that is very direct. He'll sort of tell it to you like it is while also injecting some of that humor into it. Um so he he was always great to talk to. Um just a little bit of info about about Aniban, Dr. Dr. Anibon Basu uh founded Sage Policy Group in 2004. He was speaking in that capacity um at TACA, kind of giving again a construction economy and general economic update. Um he's twice been recognized as one of Maryland's 50 most influential people and has also been named one of the Baltimore region's 20 most powerful business leaders. In 2014, Maryland Governor Larry Hogan appointed Dr. Basu as chairman of the Maryland Economic Development Commission, a position he held through 2021. He serves as chief economist for a number of organizations around the country and currently lectures at Gaucher College as their distinguished economist in residence. Um and as you'll hear at the end of this interview, um I don't know if I've met a more diehard or a more tapped-in Orioles fan than uh than Dr. Basu. He he's very passionate about his O's, and uh you'll you'll you'll kind of hear a touch of that in some of the disappointment uh and the and the lemon lamentation, lamination that he's feeling uh about their performance so far this year. We we touch on that briefly at the end of the interview. I always love to kind of always like to love to kind of throw that out there for him so that he gets a little chance to talk some O's.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Umsoftball at the end.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Exactly, yeah. You know, just just something something kind of fun there. So um yeah, he's always great to work with. Was super glad I was able to get the chance to sit down uh with him at TACA and I think we had a really good conversation.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Well, let's hear it. This is Dr. Anuban Basu of Sage Policy Group.

unknown 6:33

Dr.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Basu, thanks for making a little time for me today. Absolutely, my privilege and pleasure. Fantastic. You know, we've we worked together a couple times before. Um always enjoyed talking with you. I I think I I you know I certainly at least appreciate your very straightforward, very, very honest of view of what's going on in the construction industry economy. That being said, can you what's what's kind of your temperature of the construction industry economy as we approach the midway point of the year here?

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Well, it's interesting that you ask it that way, temperature, because in some ways the economy is overheating and so is the construction segment in the United States. So by that I mean that costs are rising. And yet, despite the increase in costs, we see a fair amount of activity economy-wide and in construction. Obviously, the most uh visible segments in terms of driving demand for construction services data centers. And I think we understand we're in the middle of this AI investment super cycle, but of course there are implications for that because data centers use a ton of electricity. So another area that we see, and this happens to be very, very pertinent for Texas, as it turns out, is a lot of investment, or upcoming investment at least, in energy generation distribution projects. And those two segments, data centers and energy generation, stand to be the two strongest segments of construction going forward. We also have a fair amount of public spending, meaning on infrastructure. Obviously that affects demand for aggregates and concrete, for instance. But um we still have money coming out of the IIJA signed by President Biden on November 15th of 2021. And though the authorization for that package ends September 30th of this year, the money is still there to be spent. The Trump administration obviously has different priorities from the Biden administration, and so there's been some interruption of certain projects. Nonetheless, the money is there. Uh, and we see a fair amount of infrastructure spending in this country. And then you look at other segments of construction, totally different. High interest rates, meaning high project financing costs, high materials prices, and a lot of these projects are not penciling out from a pro farm perspective. They don't work financially right now. Interest rates are too high, materials prices are too high, and the cost of construction labor has gone up, perhaps in part because of shifting immigration policy. But this is a part of American life, is we don't have enough skilled construction workers. So you put it all together, there's some segments that are overheating, lots of activity, very expensive construction being delivered, and other segments that are actually quite cool. Sure, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

You hit on uh one of the key points again throughout the throughout the construction world, data centers. We're in Texas, a booming spot for data centers naturally. Um what is kind of with with data centers, with with electricity, and I know you mentioned a big uh you know, power, a big, a big source as well. What where is kind of the non-residential sector right now? I know three, four, five years ago the talk was warehouses of manufacturing, warehouses of manufacturing, that kind of slowed down eventually. Doesn't seem like data centers is slowing down anytime soon.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

No, data center is not slowing down anytime soon because this is driven by the so-called hyperscalers, uh, companies like uh Amazon and Alphabet and Meta and Microsoft and the aggregate, those companies spend around $400 to $450 billion on artificial intelligence, infrastructure, and architecture last year. The estimate for this year is between $700 and $725 billion by itself. Uh if you add in multiplier effects, that could add more than our full percentage point to gross domestic product. I mean, it's just massive. And of course, if you're a firm that offers master electricians, if you are HVAC specialists, I mean, operating at the highest uh iteration uh of the industry, meaning the most sophistication, you've probably never been busier and your margins have never been higher. So there is that, and I don't see any evidence of a slowing in this form of expenditure into 2027. So people are wondering about is there an AI bubble and so on and so forth? And it's a tough question to answer because uh part of that relates to the stock market and the performance of these AI-centric companies, but another part relates to how much spending will continue. How long can this last? It's spending on data centers. Will we get uh data centers in space at some point? Who knows? Right. But uh for now it would appear that we are very much in the midst of this AI spending super cycle and it's not gonna slow down anytime in the near term. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Outside of data centers, how would you describe the health of the non-residential sector?

SPEAKER_03 10:46

I would say the non-residential sector is not healthy uh in general, with the exception of data centers and some other uh handful, another handful of segments. Why is that? Because I think you'll find a lot of contractors out there who are actually experiencing declining backlog. They're working through their project portfolio pretty neatly now, and it's hard for them to get new work. One of the things I hear about constantly from contractors, at least those who do not work on data centers, the bidding lists have gotten longer. So when they might have been competing against three, four, five firms, now it's 10 to 12, 12 to 15. And that, of course, is bad for firm margins. Uh, because to win, that means you have to bid that much uh more aggressively and reduce the margin aggressively. And so, yeah, I would say that for many contractors, I'll tell you this is not a great uh construction economy. If you look at the multifamily segment, the office construction segment, the hotel construction segment, a lot of weakness there because those segments are really interest rate sensitive. The hyperscalers throw up so much free cash flow, they're less interest rate sensitive. And they're of course competing, they're of course competing for a global dominion and artificial intelligence. Nothing is more valuable in the world financially, one could argue, than global dominion and artificial intelligence. Yeah. Uh and so they're chasing that profitability. So they'll spend whatever they need to to, if they're an Amazon, to defeat Alphabet, Meta, or Microsoft. And so that's where we are right now. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

You already touched a little bit on the non-building segment. Again, some money from the IIJ still left, but expiring at the end of September. Um, you know, I know there have been a few developments in Congress as far as trying to put new bills out to kind of replace that talks of possibly a continuing resolution. Do you have any insights or expectations as far as what you might expect come October 1st, what the infrastructure world might look like in that regard?

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Right. So there'll still be money even after October 1st of this year for infrastructure because not all the IIJA monies have been spent. Those monies have to be obligated by September 30th, but the money can still be spent thereafter. Got it. But at some point, the Trump administration has is going to have to reauthorize infrastructure. And it's very unclear what we're going to get out of that process. The Trump administration has given some uh us some clues, however. They think they want to have a smaller package, a smaller federal role in uh uh in in infrastructure. They want state-local governments to take on more responsibility for infrastructure. I'm not here to say whether that's right or wrong philosophically, uh, but certainly the Biden approach was the federal government will take the lead. And of course, we're coming out of the pandemic during that period, or perhaps in the midst of it, and so there was this desire for the federal government to spend a ton of money, and they did, including on infrastructure. But now going forward, we have a $39 trillion national debt. Uh, the interest on the debt is more than a trillion dollars, and the federal government probably at some point has to pull back on infrastructure spending, and so more state local government involvement. Problem, of course, is that many state local governments are not in great financial shape. And we've seen cities like Chicago, Washington, Los Angeles, San Francisco debt downgraded in the last couple of years. We've seen states like my state of Maryland downgraded in the last few years. And so what's going to happen therefore? A lot of emphasis on public-private partnerships because the capital is no longer in the public sector. It's in the private sector. Got it. And public private partnerships are going to be needed to bring enough capital, enough funding to infrastructure. The problem, of course, is what? It's very hard to put those deals together. If you're a county executive, if you're a mayor, a governor, and you're negotiating with private equity people or these kinds of investors who, you know, did their MBA at Chicago, Wharton, whatever, Harvard, wherever it is, and they're asking you to sign a lease on a bridge for 75 years, as a mayor, that's really intimidating. And so, and and sometimes certain forms of infrastructure don't generate revenues directly. And so water and source systems do. There's water charges, and so you can capitalize that by a public private partnership. But a lot of infrastructure is basically free to the user, right? Freeways, so we don't have toll roads. How do we handle that going forward? It's not obvious to me. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

You you touched a little bit on multifamily, and it seems at least to me, you know, you're obviously much closer to it, over the last 12 to 18 months, the the residential sector has kind of been all over the place. Where do things kind of stand right now, looking residential as a whole, between single family and multifamily?

SPEAKER_03 15:03

It's pretty weak, I'll tell you. Based on the leading economic indicators like residential building permits, and permits are leading indicators because if you're a builder, you've got to pull a permit before you build. But uh it looks pretty weak to me. And again, in the multifamily segment, if we're talking about apartment construction, deals are not penciling from a pro forma perspective. So again, project financing costs are high, uh, because interest rates are stubbornly elevated, actually rising recently, and materials prices are very expensive, in part because of tariffs, perhaps. But now, of course, we've got this conflict in the Middle East, which has raised the price of diesel fuel and all kinds of other inputs into construction. And in certain parts of the country, actually markets became saturated with new construction. So you see this in a place like Austin, Texas. Lots of new construction. It takes a while to lease up these apart buildings, even with a red-hot economy. Denver, Colorado, Tampa, Florida, Nashville, Tennessee. And so rents are no longer rising as they had been because of all this new supply. And so it's just hard to make these deals work. And so the multifamily stands out as one of the segments that's really weakened. Look, here's the good news it's gonna come back. Sure. Because we know that we have a housing shortage in America. We and people can disagree about whether or not it's three million units or four million units, but we don't have enough housing in America, and housing has become really quite unaffordable to many Americans. So we need more supply. At some point we'll get it, but we're gonna need lower interest rates, lower materials prices at some point to get there. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Taking all that into consideration, what are maybe some of your expectations or what are you seeing as what what the next six months or maybe bleeding into 2027 might hold for the construction industry as a whole?

SPEAKER_03 16:38

I think it's still a tale of two industries in some sense is construction, because you're gonna continue to see a red hot data center uh and energy investment space, as it turns out. You'll still see public works going on out there. These projects take many years off it, right? So they begin one year, they they're still going on in five years. I don't think Pennsylvania has ever actually completed an infrastructure project. Right. So uh so that's the but I will also uh suggest to you that certain segments stand to get even weaker going forward. And I'll tell you why. Coming into this year, the expectation had been that the Federal Reserve, our central bank, would cut interest rates two or three times. Okay. And interest rates coming into the year were quite high relative to where we had been, let's say, pre-pandemic. But now, given the surge in inflation, and the most recent data indicate that inflation running in this country, depending on the measure, between three and six and a half percent. It depends on the measure, right? Producer price index year over year, 6.5%, uh, that interest rates are set to rise going forward. The Federal Reserve may start increasing rates later this year, let's say December, and then twice after that in 2027. So instead of getting a 75 basis point or three-quarters of a percentage point reduction in interest rates, you might see a move in the other direction. That's a major change. And for for segments in construction that are interest rate sensitive, that's really bad news because project owners are having a tough time getting those projects financed uh appropriately to begin with, meaning appropriate to what they need to uh to derive to move the project forward. A lot of these projects become even less likely going forward because of these higher borrowing costs. So that's where we are right now, and as I say, a tail of two segments already, even more so as we march toward 2027.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah. One last question for you, Dr. Basu. I appreciate you being so generous with your time. You mentioned you're you know a Maryland manager yourself. I know you're uh a very passionate Orioles fan. What are your thoughts on uh on how the O's have have been playing so far this year, and what are your hopes for the rest of the season?

SPEAKER_03 18:34

Look, we knew that the Orioles had not invested enough in starting pitching. We knew it. We told ownership. We have one of the one of the richest owners in baseball, uh, David Rubinstein, uh one of the co-founders of the Carlisle Group. And uh we expected Mr. Rubinstein, who went to high school in Baltimore but uh made his fortune at a firm located, I believe, in Washington, D.C. But um you need to buy some more starting pitching, sir. Apparently he did not listen to us uh average Orioles fans. Right. And so we've had a devil of a time holding the opposition in check. And then on top of that, our offense, which is supposed to be a juggernaut, has been inconsistent, you know, exploding on occasion, but often uh uh quite muted. So you put it all together, we have a losing record right now. The good news is we're in a very bad American league. Yes. And so a couple of very bad teams are going to get into the playoffs, and I suspect the Orioles will be one of them. So I'm still quite hopeful. Fingers crossed, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Fingers crossed. Let's go, Burrets. Dr. Bosser, thank you so much again for your time. I appreciate the insight. Thanks a lot. And now a word from our sponsor. Geosonics Vibrotech has been leading the seismic industry since 1949. They are the original innovator and trusted standard for seismic monitoring in the aggregate industry. As pioneers in remote technology, they provide vibration, noise, dust, geotechnical, and environmental data you depend on. Stay connected, compliant, and informed with Geosonics Vibrotech. Visit www.geosonicsvirotech.com. Thank you to Geosonics and Vibrotech for sponsoring this episode.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Thanks again to Anuban Basu of the Sage Policy Group. Jack, appreciate you capturing that content down in San Antonio. And you know, a lot to kind of dissect there. Funny about the the Orioles. And then we're here in Cleveland. We just lost our MVP like player, Jose Ramirez. It's been it's gonna be a tough summer ahead from the the baseball standpoint with the Guardians. But but uh yeah, I mean he he put a lot out there in terms of the construction materials market, Jack, and I don't know what where you want to zero in on, but but uh again, we really appreciate Dr. Bassoud offering his expertise here to the drilling deeper audience.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Yeah, absolutely. And and I think a lot of uh a lot of what he said I think echoes what we've heard from either other people in similar positions to him, what we've been hearing from producers we work with, manufacturers we work with, even some dealers we've been working with. And you know, I think first and foremost, again, really the the you I feel like you can't have a conversation about the construction industry or the construction economy without talking about data centers. And you know, as he mentioned, no signs of that slowing down. Um I I think what really stuck out to me is last year you look at companies like Amazon, Meta, Alphabet, Microsoft, some of those really massive data companies. He said last year companies of that type spent around 400 to 450 billion dollars on artificial intelligence infrastructure and architecture. And this year the estimate's gonna be around 700 to 725 billion. So I mean almost doubling what they did last year, just an astounding number. Um really, really kind of crazy to think about. And he noted as well, which I think was you know something maybe that that doesn't get thought about as much when we talk about data centers, is how much of an investment also is being put into the the power and the energy to actually keep these things up and running. So sort of one A, one B was that uh was that data centers and energy j energy distribution for those data centers. Um, you know, additionally, he he touching on touching on infrastructure, you know, there's still money from the IIJ coming out kind of up in the air where things are gonna be post September thirty. 30th. Um, but what he did say that kind of stuck out to me, and and this I wasn't necessarily a surprise, but just kind of looking at it at this perspective, I think, is um something I hadn't really thought about to this point. You know, that the the Trump admin administration has really um he said expressed that they want to have a smaller federal role in infrastructure, which, you know, not not really that surprising, um, and wants sort of states and local governments to take on more responsibility when it comes to infrastructure. The problem, he says, is that many state and local governments are not in great shape to be able to do that. So, because of that, they're gonna try to lean on some private public partnerships to get funding for infrastructure, but those can be hard to put together because a lot of infrastructure types don't necessarily generate revenue. So those partnerships, at least sort of my understanding from what he was talking about, were gonna be found in more types of uh water or sewer or types of infrastructure that will at least bring in some type of money to the uh state and local governments. So gonna be interesting to see how you know things play out in the next few months as we approach the expiration of IIJA and whether we get a continuing resolution, whether anything gets passed in Congress to Build America 250. And then just finally, you know, I think sort of status quo for residential, just sort of a weak sector overall. Um, you know, he he hit a lot on multifamily, as you heard, and I think what stuck out most to me is that, you know, markets are just becoming oversaturated with new construction, so it's taking them longer to lease these units. Obviously, more supply, less demand, bad, bad combination. Uh rents aren't rising like he used to, as they mentioned. Does seem optimistic that there will be a comeback, didn't necessarily put a time frame on him. I don't blame him for that. Um, and then looking forward, you know, I think what stuck out was just that, you know, certain segments are going to continue to stay hot. I'm looking at you, data centers and energy investments and public works, and then also, you know, just looking at some segments are gonna get weaker as you know, we may see interest rate increases coming the rest of this year into next year if this inflation continues to remain kind of sticky and stay higher than it than than it really should be. So a lot of good insight. And again, I think I think you know, I'll I'll I'll thank I'll thank Dr. Basu and uh you know praise him for you know thank him for his time and praise him for sort of making what can be a really uninteresting or sort of maybe dull topic at times easily digestible and at times entertaining. So appreciate his time. And I don't know if there was anything that stuck out to you from from kind of what we heard, but uh um yeah, I just feel like he kind of does a good job running the gamut of of where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah, I mean the data center component of what's happening out there with with the industry, jobs, big projects. I mean, some of the biggest projects that we've we've seen in the history of the country, honestly, you know, on that non-residential construction front, Jack. Um interestingly, I was on a call just before we sat down here to shoot the podcast, and I was talking to an industry expert about data centers. It was part of the conversation, at least, and and this person was basically alluding that in the future we're gonna see more infrastructure built around the data centers. I mean, and you talked about the power generation component, and that's certainly kind of like the one-two punch that is the data centers. Um, but uh my understanding has always been that that data centers, you know, kind of once you get them up and running and situated in some of these remote or wherever they are in the country, that they kind of don't necessarily require a lot of people to be hands-on on the site. And I was getting some new information before the this podcast episode, Jack, that that uh, you know, some of these sites are gonna require more people, that we're gonna see even towns built around them. And and just think about what that means for, you know, the future of of those those regions or those areas. I mean, so if you've got more people there, I mean that just creates additional infrastructure opportunities, whether it's roads, bridges, highways, or schools, hospitals, residential, which you were just kind of talking about for a minute there. Um so that's gonna be a dynamic to watch, certainly. Um I think we're still in the very early innings with these data centers across the country, and and I know that they're very much kind of in certain parts, you know, from you know the the mid-Atlantic kind of down through into the southeast and around to Texas. But uh if you're gonna be competitive in California or you know, you're gonna try to keep up and and and keep up with the needs of of uh of the population out there. I mean, I think data centers are gonna have to continue to pop up across all 50 states in in some respects. So something to watch certainly, and and again, uh as you said, thank you to Dr. Busu. Appreciate him him extending his expertise and and giving you some time to to have some content here for our drilling deeper audience. Absolutely. Well, we mentioned at the top that you also visited with with Matt Arnold of Knife River and Andrew Pinkerton of the Texas Aggret and Concrete Association. When I was down at the Taca meeting, uh gosh, it must have been a few years ago, Andrew was actually in my my golf threesome and along with Dino and I, Dino Batanza and I, and and he wasn't with Taca at the time. You know, he's since joined, I think he's been there about a year and a half, two years, maybe less, but but he's somewhat new to the organization down there. So again, great opportunity having Jack down there in San Antonio for their annual meeting to kind of get some perspective on not only what's happening in Texas um from the Taca viewpoint, but we had a leading producer there in Knife River. We featured Knife River on the podcast and then Pitt and Corey in the past as well. I haven't had the opportunity to meet Matt, but but maybe Jack T up for our audience what we're gonna hear from from Matt Arnold and Andrew Pinkerton here in just a moment.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah, absolutely. So we we we kind of had a had had a wide-ranging discussion. We looked at, you know, this year's uh Taca annual meeting, kind of talked a little bit about, you know, how the association has grown. Obviously, you know, the the growth in Texas is kind of being mirrored throughout TACA, you know, with increasing membership um and growing, growing exhibitors, more money raised at this show. Um, just just kind of a good outlook at how the association is doing, being one of the biggest associations and one of the biggest states um in the country. Talked about the growth in Texas that they're seeing, and obviously, you know, it's it's alive and well, a lot of population growth leading to a lot of you know uh project growth, sort of gave some first half reflections from Taca and Knife River, uh, offered an an overview to the aggregate industry as a whole and provided an outlook for the rest of the year and going into 2027. Um, two just really, really good guys. You know, it was it was awesome talking with both of them. Um appreciate Janine Wheeler at Taka for helping get this set up. Uh just a little bit of info real quick about Matt and Andrew before we get into it. Uh Kevin, like you mentioned, Matt Arnold's vice president of operations at Knife River in Texas. He joined Knife River in 2018 as a materials sales manager. He's also served Knife River as materials manager and general manager before taking up his current position. Uh, in addition to his role at Knife River, Matt is now chairman of TACA. When I talked with him uh Friday, the you know, the the morning of the Friday of the meeting, he still had his vice chairman sticker on his lanyard. Um, as of that night, he is now chairman, so congratulations to Matt on that. Uh for Andrew Pinkerton, he has more than 22 years of experience in the construction materials industry. Before joining Taca, he served as executive director of the Cement Council of Texas, which represents the state's cement manufacturers and shippers. Before leading the Cement Council of Texas, Pinkerton was director of marketing, communications, and public affairs at U.S. Concrete. And he previously served as manager of corporate communications and government affairs at Texas Industry. So two guys that, you know, really, really have done a lot in the industry, a lot of know-how, and uh just a lot of knowledge that I was able to uh that I was lucky enough to kind of be able to glean during this interview. So another another really great conversation that um I'm really appreciative they were able to make some time for me at the meeting.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Well, with that, Jack, let's hear from Andrew Pinkerton and Matt Arnold.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Appreciate you gentlemen making some time for me today. Absolutely. So this is my first time attending TACA. How'd you like it? Very impressed. I've heard a lot of great things. You know, I've been I've been with Pitt and Cory for about five years now, and it's a show that we've constantly been hearing about, and I'm excited to finally be here. Um heard some, you know, obviously some lofty goals were set as far as attendance and fundraising went this year. Um I know some of those numbers are still yet to come, but what were your thoughts on how the 72nd annual uh TACA annual meeting played out?

SPEAKER_04 30:20

Well, the the numbers aren't in uh completely yet, but even with our preliminary numbers, we broke all records. Number of attendance attendees, total attendance at the event itself, uh total attendees for our pack fundraiser and money raised. We sold out the golf tournament, we had the most uh registrants for our mountain biking. Um and uh of course it's a the thing that I heard over and over which makes me most happy is that it felt like family. It's a family event. We had two eight weeks eight-week old children, an eight-month. Um and so it it's something that we keep here locally in Texas so that the families can come and it becomes their yearly event.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Matt, what what what were your thoughts on this year's show? Oh, absolutely. I mean it it it was amazing to see how many people actually turned up this year. I mean, if complete packed house. Um we had our concert pack event last night, completely packed house. Um, and I think a lot of that's drummed up. We've also got um our membership committee has done a fantastic job bringing in new members. Um they they met, you know, they didn't quite meet their producer uh goals that they had set, but our allied members um they blew it by over a hundred percent. Wow. Um so we had a lot of new people here, um, which we recognize them with a different colored badge so we can introduce them, gives them the opportunity to really get engaged with everybody. So I think uh, you know, the ability to be able to get that, get out there and and and get those new people as a part of TACA has been part of our success in this thing growing. So it's it's been fantastic so far.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Excellent. So go ahead, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

And I certainly want to put a plug in for our Emerging Leading Leaders Academy. They do a community service project every year at the event, and this year they put together 2,000 backpacks for needy children across Texas, and so this is uh a new fundraiser for them, and they blew it out of the water. They had a a goal of a thousand backpacks, and they did two thousand, so just another banner year, another record-breaking event.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

That's fantastic. To what do you maybe contribute? You know, obviously Texas is a growing state, and we'll get into that in a little bit, but to what do you contribute the the rate at which TACA has grown, the involvement that you guys are getting, the way that you know this event keeps growing? Just what what what are you doing, you know, in your role and you know, Matt, in your role respectively, to to just keep and continue fostering the growth within this organization?

SPEAKER_04 32:56

Certainly. Well, it it all comes down to our members and their commitment to the industry, the association. Um the momentum that we've gained year after year certainly helps. Uh my staff does an amazing job of putting together the the marketing and communication about the event and continuing to reach out. But we also we have a huge group of volunteers that serve on our committees and they work hard at bringing in the membership, promoting the events that we have. And so, you know, me and my staff, I feel like we do an amazing job, but ultimately it's the commitment from the membership.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Yeah, and just top talk about that a little bit, you know, kind of we're talking about like what's my motto gonna be for my chairmanship, right? And uh the thing that rang true to me more than anything else was generations, right? So I'm a third generation in this industry. But whenever you look around the room um at our at all of our uh at our association, we have a lot of people that have come up through the ranks and that are third or fourth generation folks. Um and so really my goal is really to make sure that you know we're established for generations to come, right? From from the actual resource, right? I mean, one of the things that I want to note is um, you know, in the state of Texas, there's over 120 uh regulated bodies that regulate water, which of course it's a very valuable resource, but we don't have that established for our aggregates. And we are growing at such a massive rate in Texas that we're covering up some of our key reserves, right? And so that's one of those things that we got to be thinking about. What about the next generation? And really looking forward as we do that. So um in Talka give set opportunity to do that. Without this association, we wouldn't be able to do that. That's why this is so important. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

You talk about obviously some of that growth that Texas has seen. Matt, for you, you know, in in your role with Knife River and in the regions you cover, Andrew, you know, from the from the TACA perspective, just what what have you guys seen, even in the last six months, maybe going out to the you know, last 12, 18 months? I mean, obviously data centers are playing a huge role in a lot of the growth that Texas is seeing, but you know, just what what have you been experiencing? What have you been hearing from your members? What have you been seeing from your customers about just the rate at which and and the way in which Texas is growing of late?

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Certainly. Well, the Texas miracle is alive with the uh population growth that we're seeing, uh, that we have seen most of our uh MSAs, the metropolitan statistical areas are ranking very high in so many different metrics from um construction employment uh to the GDP. And you know, we had a great economist speaking today who you know had wonderful things to say about a number of our markets, and and it it rings true with what we're seeing in the markets with being number one in aggregate production and sales, number one in ready mix production, number one in cement consumption. So, you know, it it just is all flowing behind that population growth.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Yeah, I mean, you you spoke about data centers, right? It just seems like there's always something for Texas is next year. Like, what's the next thing that's coming to the state that's gonna make it great? Last year was great, what's next year? And so it just seems like we we we're always having something that's gonna be able to help us keep staying the fastest growing economy in the U.S. So Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

So given all that we just mentioned, the the population growth, the you know, the data centers driving a lot of development and and really everything going on in Texas of late. How how's the first half of 2026 treated both of you from a knife river perspective and from a TACA perspective?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

It I mean it it continues to be the same in Texas, right? It's just it's it's really strong. Um we've got a lot of strong markets. Um I mean I mean this is where a lot of people want to invest in. You've got a lot of corporate, you know, m moving their o moving their offices to Texas. And why are they coming to Texas? It's just that this is a great place for for people to invest in, and it continues to be that way. Um and so from perspective, Texas is a big part of of of our our business, right? Um and uh we plan to continue to grow along with the state.

SPEAKER_04 37:20

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and and that truly benefits the association. So in the last six months, like he said before, we've seen a great growth, and not only producer members, but allied members. So many people want to do business here in Texas. Uh and and luckily for me, they know that we have a strong association. And you know, we had a a record number of booths this year at our event, and I hear over and over from those partners that come in that having a booth at one of our events can change their life. Change their business. We've heard success story after success story of people that have have made the connections here, grown their business, and made the right connections to to further their careers.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah, absolutely. Kind of taking a step back, you know, beyond Texas for a second, what what either what you've seen or what you've heard from customers and and producer members and and manufacturing members for that matter, um, what's kind of the temperature of the aggregate industry right now that you're seeing as we approach the midpoint of the year?

SPEAKER_04 38:19

There's a lot to do. There's so many things out there like he was talking about with uh land management and and making sure that we have the available materials and minerals uh to continue uh doing things responsibly and making sure that we are connecting with our communities in the right way. And so there's so much potential, uh, but with that comes so much responsibility. And so, you know, the temperature is excitement, uh, but also there's a lot of work that goes along with that.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Sure. And to his point, I mean a lot of a lot of what we need to do is educate, right? Um we we struggle to really get our industry out there and in in front of everybody to understand how valuable the resource really is, right? To everything that we do, from a school to a road, a bridge, um, to like Rich's point, our current cherry said, you can't go get uh get a plate of barbecue without our products being involved, right? So it is a very, very valuable resource to us, and and that's one of our goals is to really educate both our lawmakers um and the public, general public for that matter, how important that our resource really is.

SPEAKER_04 39:28

Yeah, we we set out last year at this meeting with the idea that we need to tell our story better. Yeah, and we've really come a long way with doing that uh and trying to educate the communities uh and remind them that everything that we produce makes their life easier and truly uh adds to their uh enjoyment of life, whether it's driving, flying, getting your Amazon packages, you know, those ports are very important. Uh safe buildings, safe homes. So much of what they touch every day, we we do our best to make it possible.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Right. Absolutely. Obviously, a lot of positivity in the you know industry as a whole, and certainly within Texas as well. And you mentioned um, you know, Dr. Basou, who spoke who spoke at the event today, great economist. We've worked with him a lot of times. He's certainly uh certainly a great guy to, you know, and uh makes uh makes a potentially dull topic a little more entertaining. Um, you know, he obviously hit on some of the headwinds and some of the things that are going on in the industry that might, you know, could tamper some expectations for some of that positivity. But given all of that, given sort of everything uh with where the industry's at right now, what are maybe some of your expectations for the rest of the year looking industry-wide, Texas-wide, taco-wide, knife river-centric?

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Well, I would say expectations are high. You know, we we haven't seen the slowdown in the population growth. We we can continue to see elevated numbers from TechStot, um, R DOT, uh, and the the work that they're doing in the next four years and then four to ten years, and and ten years out even. Uh, but as as he said earlier about the data centers, those, you know, the the numbers coming in on those are so high as well. Uh and so we see a continued need for housing. Uh and so there's just so many different metrics that point to uh a very positive year and and future altogether.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah. Yeah, we're seeing the same thing on our our front as well. Um we had a little bit of struggles maybe up front with some weather, um, but that just pins up demand for later. Um so I I think we're gonna have a a a strong year. Um, but but this it's Texas, right? I mean it's um we enjoy we enjoy uh a prosperous economy here and we do our best to to keep pushing the product out. Sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Yeah. Well Andrew, Matt, I appreciate you sharing a little time with me today. Thanks so much for having me here at uh the 72nd annual talker meeting.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

And uh before we we cut off, and you mentioned our our uh annual meeting, I I would be remiss if I didn't say a huge thank you to to my group that put this on. Andrea Tilly, Kristen Smith, Clint Harded. They worked tirelessly for so long to put an amazing event on, and we none of us could do what we did this week without those three. And I'm so proud of them, so proud of our membership. And it's been an exciting week.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Certainly shows. Everything ran very smoothly, and I was very impressed. My first time here, looking to uh looking forward to coming back again. I'm glad you came. Excellent. Thank you both again. Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

All right, well, thanks again to Matt Arnold of Knife River and Andrew Pickerton of the Texas Aggregates and Concrete Association. Great that they were willing to sit down with you, Jack, offer you some perspective on what's happening down in Texas and the latest with their organization, TACA. And and again, just like our interview with with Dr. Anabon Bassoud, kind of a lot to kind of pick out and kind of glean, but but uh you know, they talked about data centers, they talked about kind of the growth in Texas, and you know, think about just some of the the great population migration areas, regions, states in the U.S. And and Texas is certainly one of those. It's been a while since I set foot in Texas, but I feel like there's there's always cranes in the air. There's always highways and and major roadways being built, and and it seems like all systems are go down in in the Lone Star State.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Yeah, certainly. That was definitely the impression I got. Um, you know, again, with the population growth, you know, I I think one of the things that stuck out most to me that Andrew was talking about is that, you know, Texas, you know, at least you know, according to what he was saying, Texas is, you know, breaks number one in aggregate production and sales, number one in ready mix production, number one in cement consumption, and all of that, you know, he sort of credits to the just the continued population growth and really flowing behind that. Um, you know, it is interesting in that same vein, you know, as you heard in the interview, Matt kind of talked about how sort of the the viewpoint in Texas is always what's next, and obviously data centers are the now, and it's it's such an interesting, I think, perspective, and it's really something or a way that I think you really could only think in. A place like Texas, where there's always something going on, there's uh you know continuous growth, that ability to say, you know, you've you've got this, you know, you've got this massive growth of data centers and this massive movement here, but still sort of being like, okay, this is great, but what you know, what's gonna keep us growing in the future, I I think that's just a a a very fascinating mindset to take. Um, and yeah, just you know, I I think there there was there was one thing, there was one quote near the end of the interview that I think stuck out to me. Um Matt credited it to uh Rich Seiche, the outgoing chair of TAC. I know you you talked with him, we had him on the podcast uh before as well. And you know, they're talking about really the the need to educate and tell tell the story of the aggregates industry. And Matt was talking about how you know the the struggle to let people know how valuable the resources are, and the quote he pulled from Rich, as you heard in the interview, was you can't go get a plate of barbecue without our products being involved. And I'm and I'm thinking about that, and I'm like, that's so true, you know, because when I'm driving around with my wife or driving around with, you know, by myself, doing whatever, and I look at a road, a bridge, a building, and I'm like, that wouldn't be there without aggregates. So it's it's it's just I think that's a fascinating and very Texan way of looking at it, talking about not being able to go get a plate of barbecue without um without the aggregates, you know, being there to do it. And and and just just finally, I'm not at all surprised, you know, at the top of the interview, Andrew talked about the fact that they broke really all records. They're breaking records for attendance, attendees at the PAC fundraiser, money raise, sold out the golf outing, the most registrants they've had for bike events, the most exhibitors they've had. So um really kind of par for the course, it seems like, with what's going on in Texas, that TACA is kind of matching that growth. So congratulations to uh to Taca for for a phenomenal event. Appreciate you guys having me out. Thanks again to Janine Wheeler for for helping set up this interview and uh yeah, thoroughly enjoyed my time down in Texas and looking forward to get back down there for another TACA annual meeting.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

And speaking of Andrew Pinkerton, he actually wrote a piece that we published in Pitt and Quarry not too long ago, believe it was in our May issue, and it's online right now. The headline is permitting zoning and the risk of running out of rock. It was a piece that that he contributed just because that's that's an issue in the in the state of Texas, which you know you think they're very aware of of what's happening there in terms of the population, the you know, the migration there. And they're overall, I'd say they're probably one of the more progressive states and willing to support infrastructure construction, those sorts of things. But just like every other state, all the other 49 states, you know, there's there's issues with zoning and permitting. And so he talks about what's happening down there in Texas and kind of some strategy to to overcome that. So, you know, whether you're in Texas or or out of it, you know, I think Andrew had had a good uh a good piece within Pit and Quarry, and I would encourage you to look for it on pit and quarry.com. And again, the headline, if you want to search for it, is permitting zoning and the risk of running out of a rock. So thanks to Andrew for that. Thanks to Andrew for sitting down with Jack and same thing to to Matt Arnold for that video interview down in San Antonio.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

And just, you know, I I think one thing that I just want to follow up by you mentioning that was something Matt talked about. And you know, he he said he said in the interview, you know, what what was his kind of slogan or what was his, you know, what was his catchphrase gonna be for his chairman uh for his chairman tenure, and he he talked about what really stuck in his mind was generations, you know, he looked at TACA where you have people that are coming up through the ranks that are third, fourth generation members, and he and he looked at it from a perspective of there are so many governing bodies that that you know govern or protect or deal with water. And you know, it's such obviously an important resource, and and there's a lot of time and energy put into it, understandably so, but he his point was you know, there's not really a lot of that for aggregate, that really govern aggregate or look at it as a whole. So he he is taking the perspective of wanting to ensure that you know this industry is established and protected for generations to come. So that, you know, it was it was funny if if you heard it in the interview, I know Andrew mentioned that they had a couple eight-month-olds at the at the meeting, very family-friendly events. So, you know, they want to secure this industry for generations to come so that so that those eight-month-olds and that those you know young kids that are coming to these meetings and are learning about aggregates now will have you know a sustainable industry to grow up in and be a part of. So you you mentioned the permitting, that just kind of kind of struck a chord in my mind thinking about what uh what Matt said as far as wanting to you know maintain this industry and and keep it sustainable for the for the generations to come.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

What else is happening at Bit and Cory these days? We're dropping this episode right at the end of June, which means we're looking into July here, not too far off. And in July is always our annual dealer issue, Jack. It's actually one of my favorites. We've been doing it, gosh, uh, probably eight or nine years at this point. And uh, you know, this year, kind of our cover story, again, dealer issue themed, it focused on the idea of service, which you know it seems obvious. I feel like I hear every dealer, every producer, every OEM at the end of the day say, Oh, like, you know, we're we offer the best service out there, but um, does everybody truly live that mantra? Maybe, maybe not, but but really that focus of the our cover story in July talks about service and and service in the age of AI and technology and and how they kind of are at odds, but how they can kind of be integrated as kind of a a package deal for for what dealers and how they're gonna go about addressing customers, producers, pincord readers in the in the going forward. So I'd encourage you to take a look at that and and I also put together uh kind of a case study, I guess, on one particular dealer, TEC, tractor and equipment company. They're down in the in the southeast region, and they had a unique instance where they were getting ready to you know basically sell a plant or a lot of equipment for a kind of a full plant setup to to this company called Lambert Contracting. They're out of Alabama, and uh and at the last minute a competitor came in and ultimately was gonna take the job from from this dealer, TEC. Um so the story kind of gets into the you know the inner workings of of how they pivoted, how they tried to try to appease the customer who essentially needed equipment today, quote unquote, you know, or sooner than later, and how they ultimately secured and and maintained that that victory. Um so take a look at that. It again involves TEC and Lambert and and I was out at uh another dealer here not too too long ago, Ulta M Midwest Mine Services in the Toledo area, actually Northwood, Ohio. Got to sit down with with Bob Keaton, the general manager there, and and again we kind of talked about service, you know. So basically I put together a piece there. It's about uh a little bit about their history, but how they've very much been service oriented, and now they're kind of taking the service trust that they've earned with customers across about 30 years, and and they're translating that into equipment sales. So um again, just the idea of service, Jack. I feel like we hear about that all the time. What does that ultimately mean? How does it manifest into everyday something for the dealer? So that's kind of a theme of our dealer issue this this year. So um if you haven't yet gotten your July issue, it should be coming into your mailbox here if you're a print subscriber and you check it out online. We've got our digital edition ready to go here at this stage. Again, our July issue is our dealer issue. So so thanks again to everybody who helped make that happen. And and uh I guess Jack, at this stage too, I should be back in the US or just about when we're dropping this episode from uh from the Hillhead show. I'm gonna be attending that Jul June 23rd, 24th, 25th, three-day show in the UK. Um if you haven't seen our coverage online, you know, we're planning on have some video interviews just like what Jack kind of presented here from his his TACA visit. And uh look for some of our content on pit and quarry.com on our social platforms, looking forward to to get into Hill Head. But again, by the time that this episode's dropped, that show will be over and and uh looking forward to uh being out there. And I guess speaking of travels, Jack, you were also down at Crisp Industries in Texas, not San Antonio, but you were there and you got to visit with with Dwayne Winter and John Crisp. And what did you take away from those gentlemen during your visit uh in mid-June?

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Well yeah, the uh yeah, that was that was sort of the first stop in the in the during the during the Texas visit for for Dino and myself. We we were in the Dallas area, I believe it was uh I believe it was Irving uh specifically. Um we got to could get to visit with John Crisp, who is you know just one of the i i it it's funny, he he's such a down-to-earth dude, but you you look around his office and he's got photos posing with Jerry Jones and he's got replica cowboy championship rings, you know, he's he's got all these connections, but but you but you talk to him and and and you know he talks to you like he's known you forever, and he's just a really, a really nice guy, and I was able to speak with him and Dwayne Winter, who um, if I believe correctly, is taking over as CEO of Crisp Industries and John is staying on as president. I may have those flips, forgive me. Um But yeah, just basically kind of get their perspective on what's going on in Texas. Um as a you know, as a dealer, um distributor, you know, they they're someone that I I always I always again talking about the dealer issue, I always kind of relish those uh those perspectives because they see they they see the end user side, they see the manufacturer side, and then they have their own perspectives as well. So they kind of are really able to provide a a wide a wide look at what's going on, you know, in their region and in the aggregate industry as a whole. So um really, really solid conversation. It was great talking with them and uh looking forward to to sharing that at some point.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Yeah, should have some videos, might have some more podcast fodder in in the weeks to come. And similarly, I was earlier this month at Sylvie Materials of Bell Mead and Sylvie Sand of Eagleswood. They're both operations in New Jersey. Sylvie's a top 50 or top 60 producer, somewhere in there, maybe even in the 40s, based on the USGS annual rankings. But uh really want to thank those folks, including Andrew Gaddis, who who helped to facilitate some of the the visits with me and uh and his team down there. But uh look for additional content from Sylvie on pitandquarry.com in the magazine, and and we'll just keep it going in terms of our content collection, generation, and and distribution, uh whether it's here on Drilling Deep or elsewhere on different pet pit and quarry platforms. So um and and lastly, Jack, I just wanted to encourage everyone to to take a listen or a watch for our very last episode. It was episode 69. You sat down with Dave McCracken of Aztec. He has discussed uh you know aggregates plants and kind of how there's potential to lose money there or leave money on the table. Um, you know, listen to that episode, and you know, Dave really talked about some efficiencies and and ways that the producers can kind of tighten things up a little bit to be a little bit more profitable at the end of the day. So, you know, Dave's a great guy. Yes, I've enjoyed visiting with him over the years throughout my industry travels, and and again, you can listen to Dave McCracken on episode 69. Dave's with Aztec, and we appreciate his uh his insights as well. So look for that on drillingdeeperpodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And Jack, I mean we kind of had an action-packed episode today. You know, three different folks or were guests talked about some of our recent travels and kind of what's to come here at Pitt and Quarry. Anything you want to leave the listeners with today?

SPEAKER_02 55:02

No, yeah, I just want to you I want to offer one last one last thank you to Dr. Aniban Basu, Andrew Pinkerton, Matt Arnold for joining us. Want to thank Janine Wheeler with Taca for helping set up my interview with Andrew and Matt. Want to thank Julia Hamilton over at Sage Policy for helping set up my interview with Dr. Basu. Um just enjoyed getting just enjoyed getting the insights from from Texas. You know, obviously it's a rapidly growing state, and I think it's a state that kind of offers a microcosm of you know kind of what what's going on in the industry just with how much they have going on. So uh really enjoyed it. Um, you know, excited to excited to hear some stuff from your from your Sylvie visits as well. And uh yeah, just like you said, really, really action-packed episode. I'd I I'd kind of kind of kind of kind of like these ones where we're able to uh have a lot of guests kind of do the talking for us, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

So for sure. Well, appreciate everyone sticking with us, listening to this episode, episode 70, and we'll have more for you in a couple weeks. But until next time, see ya