Join us as we navigate the complexities of avoidant attachment, forged in early childhood by caregivers who were consistently unavailable or unresponsive. Through insightful discussions and personal anecdotes, we explore how this attachment style shapes individuals' perceptions of themselves and the world around them. From the origins of avoidant attachment to its profound implications in adulthood, we uncover strategies for fostering secure connections and healing relational wounds. Tune in as we illuminate the path towards understanding and nurturing healthier attachments.
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Join us as we navigate the complexities of avoidant attachment, forged in early childhood by caregivers who were consistently unavailable or unresponsive. Through insightful discussions and personal anecdotes, we explore how this attachment style shapes individuals' perceptions of themselves and the world around them. From the origins of avoidant attachment to its profound implications in adulthood, we uncover strategies for fostering secure connections and healing relational wounds. Tune in as we illuminate the path towards understanding and nurturing healthier attachments.
To Donate:
https://secure.calfarley.org/site/Donation2?3358.donation=form1&df_id=3358&mfc_pref=T
To Apply:
https://apply.workable.com/cal-farleys-boys-ranch/j/25E1226091/
For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
https://www.calfarley.org/
Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
CCS License No. 9402
Welcome to Brain-Based Parenting, the Boys Ranch podcast for families. We all know how hard being a parent is and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling. Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions, utilizing the knowledge, experience and professional training Cal Farlies Boys Ranch has to offer. Now here is your host, cal Farlies staff development coordinator, joshua Sprock.
Speaker 2:Welcome back everyone and thank you for joining us today as we continue this journey talking about brain-based parenting. Today, we're going to continue talking about attachment styles. Specifically, we're going to talk about avoidant attachment. Again, I'm joined today by Sam Cerna, hello, catherine Clay, hello, and Mike Wilhelm Howdy. To start, as we always do, we're going to do our question today, as we're talking about avoidant attachment. My question today is what activity that most people love that you try to avoid like the plague? For me, it's arts and crafts. My wife is really good at arts and crafts, but I am like a kindergartener. Even kindergartners are better at arts and crafts than I am so that's what I avoid, like the plague.
Speaker 3:That's a good answer. Yeah, I kind of avoid large gatherings of people I don't know, the whole parties of maybe a mutual friend or things like that. I kind of avoid those things or try to find excuses to get out of it.
Speaker 4:You know, I don't know that many people like this maybe not adults, but I have two little kids so they love to play with things like Play-Doh and Slime. I avoid that. There's something about running your hands through the same material over and over.
Speaker 5:That's touched a million gross things that I just cannot.
Speaker 4:I don't get it. My daughter always asks me to play with slime and I always like skirt around and find something else to do.
Speaker 2:I was really glad when my daughter's aged out of that.
Speaker 4:It's horrible.
Speaker 5:Yeah, mine. I never thought about slime, but mine is Disney World. I would rather go to the dentist and have a root canal than to go to Disney World, and I think I'm the only guy that feels that way. Have you ever been?
Speaker 4:Yes, I have been, you can say so.
Speaker 5:I'm just not interested in being somewhere hot and crowded and standing in line. I don't know the artificial, I don't know what it is. I'd rather go to the park or something, but I would rather take a beat and then go to Disney World.
Speaker 4:That's also a great answer.
Speaker 5:So I'm gonna stick in the mud.
Speaker 2:Everybody wants to go to Disney World. So today we're gonna continue talking about attachment styles, and the next one we're gonna go into is avoidant attachment. So what exactly is avoidant attachment?
Speaker 4:Avoidant attachment is the attachment style that develop in early childhood, when the caregiver's response to the child is consistently unavailable or unresponsive, and then the child in regards to meeting the child's needs.
Speaker 2:So the child will cry, ask, bidding for attention, and then the caregiver maybe doesn't really respond in an appropriate way.
Speaker 4:Is that what I'm, yeah, consistently?
Speaker 2:Consistently.
Speaker 4:The same response is avoidant of whatever the bid is for the attention or the need.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I always picture that, like the children seeing the parent's side profile more or their back profile more than their faces.
Speaker 2:So how does that become form then? How is this attachment style developed? Kind of already started talking about it, yeah.
Speaker 4:I think there's probably a variety of ways, some of it based off caregiver behavior, but also caregiver stress levels or whatever it is that's causing the distraction from the child we could look at one side of the spectrum are behaviors like neglectful behaviors or the caregiver's struggling with addiction or whatever it may be that keeps them out of the present moment with the child. But it could also be a caregiver who is stressed out and can't respond, and that could be related to a lot of things a lot of different children, a lot of different stressors. Whatever the behavior is or whatever the environmental struggle is that keeps the caregiver unaware or not present.
Speaker 5:So what you're saying, catherine? Even if there were unfortunate circumstances, like, say, mom had a stroke and was not available the way she normally- would that would really compromise attachment and lead to perhaps avoiding. Is that right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, all that's interesting, guys, because what I have, one of the things I'm hearing is that sometimes it can't be helped. You know, that was a really good example, mike, about it's not their fault they're injured or they're sick, and that maybe that's the only caregiver available at the time and why. It just brings to light how it can even be accidental, you know, based on the caregiver's inabilities or, like you said, preoccupations or addictions and things like that. Those are all important.
Speaker 4:I'm sure if we even talked, there's probably a lot of medical related. You know reasons and hopefully, like Sam said, there would be another caregiver or if there's an ill parent, there would be family members close by. But, like we've talked about in previous podcasts, we don't live in large communities or large families anymore and so I think maybe that's more prevalent than we realize. If there's a caregiver that's got a disability or whatever it may be, I think, too, the generations play a fact in that.
Speaker 2:Like I grew up in the 80s and 90s and we were the latchkey kids, you know, come home, take care of ourselves after school, do our homework, feed ourselves, you know. So we're just kind of on our own. Both parents are working, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's interesting too, because one of the things I've read is that it talks about not meeting their emotional needs. And I was thinking about, you know, when a kid falls and maybe skins their knee or gets a little boo boo, and they come to you and you're, you're. Hey, that's not that big a deal.
Speaker 2:You don't need a band-aid.
Speaker 3:You know things like that. But but in reality, what are they seeking is hate, my care and my concern, and that I meet that need and just simply put a band-aid, even if there's no blood or anything, and it makes them feel better, or kiss it and make it better, things like that I think your example is interesting too, because in the avoidance style the parent would not respond, the parent would.
Speaker 4:We could talk about their noses in their phone or whatever it may be, they're either not there to heal the wound or put the band-aid on, whether they're present physically or otherwise, or they are there and they're unresponsive to the child so each time they come up and say I've got a boo, boo, it's met with silence or avoidance or whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah that makes total sense, yeah no question I have.
Speaker 5:I see the, I see how this plays out Very clearly and this is really helpful. Just this discussion we're having, I'm wondering maybe some of the listeners are too are there particular windows of development that are especially critical, or is this happening all the time? Is it happening just in one particular Time of life, or well, how does that play out?
Speaker 4:You know, I think, I think we all can say like the first handful of years, the first three years, are the most important, you know, for this stuff to be developed well and organized. As you're talking, I'm kind of thinking about a caregiver responding to an infant during that time when the infant's brain is growing the quickest and it's learning the most and All of that stuff, and it is more Vulnerable to insults such as like avoid an attachment or whatever. And so I think if, if attachment is Impacted early on, it definitely sets the tone for later Relationship. Now, if the first couple of years of a child's life was met with Secure attachment, and then there's hiccups down the road, they're gonna do much better because they have that base of secure attachment. So that those first handful of years definitely do matter much more than I think we realize. And in regard to what happens later on and what unfolds. And so another piece to that is those first couple of years.
Speaker 4:The parent is supposed to be the external stress regulator. So stressors come in and the parent responds to stressor might be a dirty diaper, it might be I'm hungry, I'm cold, I'm wet, whatever it may be. And if that is met with Unresponsiveness, or if that's met with unavailability, like what we're talking about in this avoidant attachment, that is Detrimental right, because then they learn I pretty much they learn I am invisible, I'm not here, my you're, my relationship with you isn't important, whatever it may be. And the opposite of that is if the parent responds and creates that secure attachment where they change the Dapper, they meet the need, they're present and Loving, the touch is nice and soft and comforting, all that stuff, and then they're building secure attachments.
Speaker 3:You know what an observation I'm having about that just came to my head is this is also the years they can actually not do anything for themselves, Right the most vulnerable very lit. No language, no, no ability to really move. How interesting.
Speaker 5:Yes and no, no language to the memories as well, so it's. It's more of a Condundrum as a girl older. If there was a, they were deprived of adequate nurture, so that's zero to two, what you're saying, that's a big deal.
Speaker 2:Is it?
Speaker 5:yeah, and I boy, I think all of us have seen that I'm I'm Marvel at what you just said, catherine, how that plays out, where a child can have a pretty solid zero to two and then have just Maybe some disastrous things happen later in life and how resilient they can be. But on the other hand, if that zero to two, it seems to me like if that zero to two Happen in an unfortunate way, no matter how, that's very difficult and there's always some challenges down the road.
Speaker 5:I always hope that there's all that's. It's particularly challenging, isn't it? Yes, but that's helpful.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So I think one of the most confusing parts of avoiding attachment is that on the surface, these kids oftentimes will look okay, they seem independent, they don't act up and in some ways it seems like they're able to take care of themselves. So why do we see this as a style of attachment that is not ideal.
Speaker 4:I was gonna say it's a bit counterintuitive for a child to not have any needs of a caregiver, and so what we were talking about a minute ago is what is learned here is that I can fall down or I can get hurt and I better take care of that myself, and that's not ideal for a child, right? So I think that they've learned, though that they excuse me that they have learned that they have to take care of themselves, that they do have to be independent, that they have to take care of their wound or whatever.
Speaker 4:It's not what should be happening at that age they should be seeking out care from their caregiver and knowing their caregiver will show up and take care of them.
Speaker 3:That's a great explanation, and what I was gonna say from a parenting perspective is that if you think about the things you just said, josh, about being independent, they don't act up and then they can take care of themselves, that sounds ideal. It's like a little adult. Hey, well, they don't really need me and they're, you know, right, they don't misbehave, they act well everywhere they go, whoa, you know, and so it looks so good from the outside. But what's gonna come up is what probably we'll talk about later is that people end up with maybe some kind of different problems out of those things. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that might be what a parent might think is okay, that hey, yeah, they're good, they can take care of themselves.
Speaker 4:And I think you know we all work in childcare and I and you guys have been house parents, so I'm sure that you can name the kids that are the super compliant kids or the kids that take care of business, or whatever phrase you wanna use, and those kids end up being kind of model citizens, for lack of a better word. But what we're learning, I think, is that there's stuff stirring inside that we're not seeing. These kids, to me, often get labeled the kids that fly under the radar, and then there's internal stuff, or lack of ability to attach or whatever it may be, that goes undetected, almost simply because they are so independent, and we praise that. You know, wow, look at this 10 year old.
Speaker 4:He's more mature than our high schoolers, or whatever it may be. But looking a little bit deeper, I think we'll notice or see some internal struggles or even, you know, external struggles that we just don't pick up on because they're hidden.
Speaker 5:I remember this was years ago I was on a team that assisted CPS for a week of just emergency care for a large group of children that were removed from a cult and it was my first experience around children that young pre-adolescent children that did not cry and there was something seems like crying is a bad thing and we're distressed about that. Well, the only thing worse is be around some pre-eds that do not cry and then you know something's wrong.
Speaker 2:yeah, it's interesting you talked about that. I heard a study that they did with kids, where kids who cried and kids who had that more secure attachment that we talked about last week, they took their diapers and they did a test of the diapers to check cortisol levels and in their cortisol levels that was actually pretty high. And then they took the diapers of kids who came from the backgrounds of this more avoidant style, that didn't cry, and the cortisol levels in those diapers were actually the same, if not higher. So on the surface it shows that one looks like they're stressed and the other one doesn't look like they're stressed, but in reality they're both stressed the one who just learned. If I cry, nothing matters, nothing happens. So what's the point? Which?
Speaker 4:is really, really interesting. Wow, it is interesting.
Speaker 2:So if we have a caregiver who is detached, disengaged and disimpressed, wow, and uncaring to me as a child, that's gonna shape how I see the world, right? So if this is my template, what would my I am statement be? If this is my care giver, I am what Alone.
Speaker 4:Invisible.
Speaker 2:Insignificant. Wow, others are busy.
Speaker 4:Unreliable.
Speaker 2:Unavailable. The world is lonely.
Speaker 4:Lonely. I was thinking that too.
Speaker 2:So I must do what Be alone.
Speaker 4:Take care of myself, take care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a message that is for a young kid, right? Who do they have to trust? Themselves.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it looks like probably no one but themselves.
Speaker 2:Which is a hard lesson for life, that early age that I can't really trust anyone except for myself to take care of me.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:So what do you think the impact of this attachment style will have on these kids when they become adults, because of that template of the world?
Speaker 3:Well, they probably don't find relationships to be meaningful to them. They're very superficial. They might find a way to cope by not using others, but you know they're gonna have enough contact to get their needs met, maybe similarly to their young age, having enough conversation to get what they need and go about their day and then go back to possibly just being alone. Just a guess.
Speaker 4:Well, I think too, relationship ideally, are rewarding, and so, kind of speaking to what Sam says, if there's not a reward associated with the relationship, it is going to look transactional. It's going to look like it's Christmas time and you give me a present, and that's our transaction with each other. Or it's my birthday and you give me a present, that's our transaction. But the deeper connection, the bonding piece, I think will be missing in between the child and the adult, and then thinking of future relationships between even a married couple, that could get that far, you know. So I agree with what Sam was saying.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I was thinking that joy seems to be something that's experienced through relationship and within family community, and be closed off from relationship it seems like a joyless existence, don't you think? And maybe even just some cynicism.
Speaker 4:Well, and I wonder too how it might feel if this is your attachment style and you meet somebody who wants to be in relationship with you whatever type of relationship that is, and how that might feel internally. It might be scary or it might be making nervous or it feels like it's going to fail or it's like the worst. I'm just thinking how that you might approach that relationship, anticipating that the person won't meet your needs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's going to be tough because, I mean, I would imagine this person would be emotionally unavailable and probably not even express a lot of emotion.
Speaker 3:I mean, right, they might be walking around mad or sad on the inside, and how would their partner or other people in their life even know? Because inevitably they have to go to work and operate and things like that. But I imagine they, like it said earlier, we said earlier they're going to be good and they're going to do what needs done and they might be very productive citizens, although they're not going to be highly emotional, and that can create problems for them. Like Catherine just said, in a relationship, you're probably not going to know that until you get into some deep stuff.
Speaker 2:In a relationship, so what role do you think technology is going to play in the development of this style of attachment, maybe in our current functioning and maybe even in the future?
Speaker 3:Technology is crazy, because technology can be an easy substitute. You don't have to be there, you can be another person. Online gaming is a big thing and it's everywhere. It's on our cell phone now. It used to be how you had to have a great setup for your computer. I know from personal experience. But now it's everywhere, available to everyone, and you can chat with people you have no idea who are. So in a way, I think that's a way to try to get a need man. Because, right, what do we all want? We do want connection and attachment, even if we don't know it, and that's an easy way to do it. But what comes along with that and let's say that's a kid, that's one thing. Well then, you're not really attaching to people around you. Your current family and these children grow up to be adults. They also. The same thing happens now If they're having kids. They're just kind of passing. The same thing.
Speaker 3:It's just so easy now with technology to just and it feels kind of okay. I think it feels okay to them too. It's not, you know, it's normal. It's normal really, that's the right word.
Speaker 4:Yeah, when I, when I'm reading this question, I'm thinking about technology is creating out like a false sense of connection. And then I also think just working out here at boys are inch, thinking about when we get attend meetings with kids that are struggling with social skills, connection, able to maintain long term relationship, and then we start talking about their technology use and more times than not, it feels like there's techno, there's inappropriate technology use related to connecting with people across the world or connecting with other kids that have similar interests or whatever it may be. And you know, as caregivers are, concerns with them talking pretty much to strangers on the internet, but that's usually what they're doing is they're seeking out connection that feels safer, that there's, they have a little bit more control and power in that relationship, since it's a virtual relationship. And then we start talking about, like now, meetings I mean that piece, but also as adults, we meet via, via zoom or we meet.
Speaker 4:whatever you know platform there is to meet. So even as adults, we're using technology and screens and all that stuff more now, and many people say I'm much more comfortable on a zoom call or I'm much more comfortable in a zoom meeting. And I'm curious too, like, are the people that are more comfortable in a zoom meeting also people that would fall under this type of attachment?
Speaker 1:So I mean.
Speaker 3:I don't know, it's just a thought that a lot of people are, and your question was, josh, that what's the role you think it's playing in the development of this style? Yes, it's just keeping it going. Yes, it's just so easy. I wouldn't be surprised I don't have data, but I wouldn't be surprised that this doesn't become one of the most common styles in life, unless people are being intentional, or maybe, mike, maybe you could speak to something.
Speaker 5:No, I agree with what Sam, what you and Catherine both said about this. I just wonder when it's going to become the. It took a while to figure out, I don't know, in the late 1800s what the opium was. Probably not quite a good a thing as many of you thought it was.
Speaker 5:And we just haven't hit that point of critical mass yet with this discussion and I'm probably, like everyone listening, I'd be a hypocrite if I said that I had all the boundaries with technology figured out because I'm very dialed in a tablet and things like that.
Speaker 5:So but it's a big concern because, as a pastor and watching faith development happen with kids, those with an avoidant attachment style really struggle, especially the boys, even more so than the girls.
Speaker 5:But the boys with an avoidant attachment style really struggle with the whole God piece. It's more complex, it's multifaceted, but this is one piece of it. And if they had the misfortune of having an under-resourced home, maybe a single parent home, and that caregiver was working two jobs and just trying their best, and then that child was off at school in a large classroom that was under-resourced, they're not getting the eye contact, the facial cues being called by name, the warmth. That's not happening. And then to compensate whenever they can, they are just getting lost in electronics, on screens, even at school, but then at home especially, it seems like it's cultivating more of an avoidant attachment style, wouldn't you agree with that? And as that goes, that whole God piece becomes more and more challenging for young people to warm up to the transcendent. So, yeah, very concerned about it and I wish I had the magic pill or answer to it all.
Speaker 4:And I think it's all about balance right.
Speaker 4:We are not going to rid our kids or ourselves of technology and I think there's some benefits to technology. I think about, just in my field, connection to like therapy via telehealth or whatever it may be. I think more people are seeking out help because they are able to do it through a screen. Whether that's good, whether that's bad, I don't know the research on that, but I would say that more people are seeking out services because they are. Now, you know, they're not as difficult to get to right, like physically, actually get to a person's office or whatever. So I think that there's a balance, definitely a balance in technology being helpful and harmful.
Speaker 2:So what are some ways that we can help the kids move to a place of security in their attachment if they have this avoidant style?
Speaker 3:Just to state the obvious. I mean they need your attention, they need our love and care and concern. When they come with a problem or any small thing, we need to be responsive to those things, especially at their younger, younger ages. Even when they're older, it's never too late to start.
Speaker 4:Well, and I think, too, some awareness about the avoidant attachment style as you parent or care give, because you are probably going to, I would imagine, approach an avoidant kid in a different way, knowing that your presence, your attunement, might be confusing to them or stressful to them or whatever it may be, or it may be too intimate for them, and so, being mindful of your distance, the proximity maybe proximity between you and the child, or that they may have a sensitivity to relationships, or whatever it may be, so that you're working with them and not against them, and trying to bond, It'd be easy to overwhelm for a professional caregiver or volunteer working with a child that's not your own.
Speaker 5:It'd be easy to overwhelm a child that has an avoidant attachment style, as if we just assume that, okay, our family, lots of hugs, and well, that must be good for everybody all the time, right away, and not so right.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I hear in group living it's a little more difficult.
Speaker 3:I mean, you could have eight to ten kids with you at any given moment and they all have their own needs and attention.
Speaker 3:And then you know the parents have things they have to do, dinner, to cook, chores to get done, all the things.
Speaker 3:But one of the things a real smart guy told me one time was spend 15 minutes a week with your child, with a child, and so we he set a goal with us to just check in with these kids. And I know that sounds like very little, 15 minutes a week, and so that just tells you how busy he thought we were, and it's true. And so just finding time to just be in their proximity, be in their presence, especially when I mean at the time we're getting kids there at least five, or you're dealing with teenagers, you know we might think that what they are doing is what they want and they think that we're sitting around playing their video games and chatting all day or just being alone in their rooms. And you know there's some value to having some alone time and playing some games with your friends and those are all good things. But it's up to the adults to be intentional, right to set the limits, to set times, to give the kids what they actually need right.
Speaker 3:Because they need time with us. They need time to learn something connect connect and all those things, and just sometimes, just intentionally, seeking them out and making small bids of your own right, with intentional, with intentional purpose hey, I'm just checking in, how did your day go at school, how did you know that this go? And just knowing things about them. Right, because we have to model.
Speaker 4:We have to model and you know, as parents sometimes, and I'll say that you are busy too- and we have dinner to cook and everything, like I said earlier, but every parent has things to do, and so we have to build it in our own schedules to intentionally spend time with our kids and I think too, sam, as you're speaking, each time that you do that, each time that you invest that 15 minutes or you respond in a way that is is present and nurturing you are, it's a small challenge to their internal dialogue, right About adults, about caregivers, and you know the they, the child, probably experienced the avoidance, caregiving for a lot of years, and then they come here or wherever, and it about the repetition of you telling them well, not all adults, not all adults won't give you a band-aid or whatever it is, and that's just years and years and years of work to offset some of the some of the early caregiving stuff.
Speaker 5:I would think, going along too with what you said, sam I can't imagine that it wouldn't always be a helpful thing for any family, no matter the setting, to be intentional about to protect one sit down together, meal a day and I know that's. That's harder now than then, you think. But if if we're not intentional about it, it probably won't happen, it'll. We'll just shuffle in and out of the kitchen and and grab something, and but to sit down together and then also scheduled play and we talked about that last podcast but but to and again, if you're just going to wait to see when that might happen, I'm going to bet that it just won't but to have a scheduled meal, scheduled play, seems like that's always going to be helpful, don't?
Speaker 3:you think yeah, absolutely I think.
Speaker 2:I heard you guys say something too, that we have to model a lot of this behavior, and I was thinking about technology. How much do we have to model appropriate techno hygiene when it comes to kids too, because they learned from seeing us, so putting our phone down and giving them full attention, things like that, and if we're, if we go down that row discussing, say, the child getting stuck into technology.
Speaker 5:Well, rather than scolding, lecturing or shaming, it's like, okay, our job is to provide a better alternative.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And so I've watched the best of our house parents out here. They have very good boundaries with electronics in their home, not because they preach and lecture more, because they're out doing something better with their kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, passion is contagious.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 2:You can get excited about something. I think the kids will fall along with that.
Speaker 4:Well, with technology, I think when I, when I notice myself using my phone more than normal, I often ask myself what's going on here. And usually it's. I'm stressed out, I'm overwhelmed, I'm feeling very tasked or whatever it may be. And I've had a time or two where my daughter has said something about me being on my phone and then I'll say to her you're right, I have been on my phone, I'm sorry, mommy's feeling overwhelmed or whatever it may be, and she's much more forgiving. But there's always, there's always a reason we check out and check into something else, whether it's good or bad, right A phone or the outdoors, or whatever it may be, and the curiosity behind that makes me think of kind of what you were saying when we're caregiving, I think is super important.
Speaker 2:Well, this has been such a great discussion. You guys, I thank you so much, and thank you guys all out there for spending some time with us today. Don't avoid us next week when we'll discuss ambivalent attachment. Until then, remember you might have to loan out your frontal lobes today. Just make sure you remember to get them back.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to brain based parenting. We hope you enjoyed this show. If you would like more information about Cal Folly's boys ranch, are interested in employment, would like information about placing your child, or would like to help us help children by donating to our mission, please visit CalFollyorg. You can find us on all social media platforms by searching for Cal Follies. Thank you for spending your time with us and have a blessed day.