Join us today as we talk about Relationships and Disorganized Attachment. We delve into the disorganized attachment style, where predictability is a luxury unknown to the child. Day by day, their caregivers' responses fluctuate from warm and loving to absent or even violent. Imagine the turmoil of never knowing what mood your caregiver will be in, and how that uncertainty shapes a child's understanding of safety and self-worth. Our discussion highlights the challenges faced by both the child and the caregiver in navigating this turbulent relationship. We explore how these dynamics play out not only at home but also in other settings like school, where hyper-vigilance becomes a survival strategy. As we unravel the impact of disorganized attachment, we emphasize the importance of support for caregivers and the need for a compassionate, curious approach when faced with challenging behaviors. Ultimately, we confront the heartbreaking reality that for these children, even the concept of God may be shaped by their experiences of unpredictability and instability. Through our conversation, we aim to foster understanding and empathy for those affected by disorganized attachment, recognizing that every individual's story is shaped by their unique journey.
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Music:
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CCS License No. 9402
Join us today as we talk about Relationships and Disorganized Attachment. We delve into the disorganized attachment style, where predictability is a luxury unknown to the child. Day by day, their caregivers' responses fluctuate from warm and loving to absent or even violent. Imagine the turmoil of never knowing what mood your caregiver will be in, and how that uncertainty shapes a child's understanding of safety and self-worth. Our discussion highlights the challenges faced by both the child and the caregiver in navigating this turbulent relationship. We explore how these dynamics play out not only at home but also in other settings like school, where hyper-vigilance becomes a survival strategy. As we unravel the impact of disorganized attachment, we emphasize the importance of support for caregivers and the need for a compassionate, curious approach when faced with challenging behaviors. Ultimately, we confront the heartbreaking reality that for these children, even the concept of God may be shaped by their experiences of unpredictability and instability. Through our conversation, we aim to foster understanding and empathy for those affected by disorganized attachment, recognizing that every individual's story is shaped by their unique journey.
To Donate:
https://secure.calfarley.org/site/Donation2?3358.donation=form1&df_id=3358&mfc_pref=T
To Apply:
https://apply.workable.com/cal-farleys-boys-ranch/j/25E1226091/
For More Information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch:
https://www.calfarley.org/
Music:
"Shine" -Newsboys
CCS License No. 9402
Welcome to BrainBase Parenting, the Boys Ranch podcast for families. We all know how hard being a parent is and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling. Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions, utilizing the knowledge, experience and professional training Cal Farlies Boys Ranch has to offer. Now here is your host, cal Farlies staff development coordinator, joshua Sprunk.
Speaker 2:Hello there, and thank you for joining us as we talk about brain-based parenting. Today, we're gonna continue talking about attachments to dials. Specifically, we're gonna talk about disorganized attachment. To do so, I am once again joined by Sam Cerna hello. Catherine Clay hello. And Mike Wilhelm Howdy Josh, alright, so let's get into our question of the day. Since we're talking about disorganized attachment, I'm wondering what does your office look like? Are you nice and organized at place for everything and everything in its place? Or is it crazy town in your office? I'm curious.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this will be interesting. I'm not seeing two y'all's offices Like right now.
Speaker 5:I don't feel like right now is a great representation. I was out of the office yesterday, so it's in poor shape. I have maybe two empty coffee cups on my table or on my desk and lots of papers. Today's disorganized. Disorganized. Usually it's alright, but today's a bad example.
Speaker 4:Well, mine yeah, it's, mine's an in-between office. Okay, I've seen like really neat, highly organized people's offices. Looks like a well-curated museum. Then I've seen some that are just disaster areas. Mine looks, mine is not a disaster, but it's not that you know that quintessential museum office, what about?
Speaker 3:yours, sam, so mine's interesting because I think I had my office two years before I even put anything on the wall. I used the previous guy's stuff for my wall so I finally decorated my office. But if you look at it, the front of my office seems organized and then yet I have stacks of paper in the drawers and on some trays. So it kind of yeah, it's organized from the passing glance.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and very disorganized. Don't look too closely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not excited at all For me. I love organization, like I think everything should have a place for everything and everything is placed, but I'm very bad at exacting that Okay. I need someone to take care of that for me. So my office I wish it looked organized, but it is not.
Speaker 4:Now you're known to have Nebraska Cornhusker memorabilia in your office, josh, and what's the other strange thing you have in your office? There's something else you collect, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes, I have lots of different collections. We're gonna be superhero stuff. I also have lots of glasses from the 1980s. Like glass drinking glasses, oh wow.
Speaker 3:Josh and I help each other decorate our offices. We buy each other these weird superhero gifts.
Speaker 2:We're a culture, we're a cool guy. So what exactly is disorganized attachment?
Speaker 3:I mean it's inconsistent, it's an attachment in where the person may don't, doesn't know what to do. They can be explosive, it can run the gamut because they don't actually know what to do and maybe they have to adapt to every situation or maybe overreact to every situation because they are very unsure of the people they are dealing with.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think one thing to kind of jump off what Sam is saying the child learns that their caregivers response is probably different day to day today. So one day they could be warm and loving, the next day they could be not present, the next day they could be angry and violent, and that could just be from day to day to day. It could be different times of the day. That it changes.
Speaker 5:And the hard piece about this is there's no way to predict what you're walking into or what the child's walking into. And so in the other attachment styles the ambivalent avoidant the child at least knows what they're getting every day. And then there's the ability to cope with that. If my caregiver is not going to show up, I know now what to do about that, or how to cope with that. If my caregiver is by my side all the time telling me exactly what to do, where this, where what's safe, what's not safe, I know how to. I know how to work with that, the disorganized attachment the child is having to, every minute, every hour, every day, figuring out how to respond to their caregiver and how to stay safe.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like it's kind of a mixture of all three, like there's a little bit of security in there, there's a little bit of avoidance in there there's a little bit of ambivalence and then there's a little bit of crazy chaoticness, right.
Speaker 4:What Catherine just described. Catherine, it sounds like you just described a home that's in the throes of addiction. Would that be? A common product of a home that, with all that unpredictability baked in.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's could definitely be the case. I also am sitting here thinking it would be like to be it, to be a child who, on Monday, my mother, father, whoever was loving and wonderful and we spent all this time together. And on Tuesday they my parent, my mother, my father, whoever doesn't address me in the third day, they're mad and I just think can you imagine how that would feel as a kid? Because you know, kids internalize everything and think that I had something to do with. My mother was so warm towards me. I must have been the best kid ever or I must have really made her happy. The next day, my mother, my father, whoever didn't talk to me. So what did I do to make them mad and or make them upset with me? And the next day the parents angry and the kid will think I've angered my parent.
Speaker 5:And to have to constantly yeah it's just, it's just incredible to kind of sit with that and think about how that might be as a small child. Yet these people, these parents, are the people feeding me, closing me. I mean it's just very dynamic well that that.
Speaker 4:I appreciate what you just said, catherine, because everything that Josh teaches us trains us about the brain needing predictability. It's a meaning-making machine, those kind of things. It seems like, as the brain is doing that it's left with no other choice than to turn on itself and default. To this I must be bad, must be what you come up with all the time if you're in a setting like that long enough and seem like it'd be really harmful to self esteem. Thoughts of self-worth is that right about that.
Speaker 5:I would agree with I think.
Speaker 3:I think anything's up for grabs with this attachment style, because what, really, if you can't predict what you're gonna do, what or what a person around you is gonna do? You have to try to prepare for all those things right.
Speaker 3:Sometimes that could be appeasing, right, trying to control your parent? Maybe to to? Maybe a kid spills milk and they have to tell the parent already how dumb they are because the parents going to berate them for it, maybe right. Or or maybe the parents going to be, hey, it's OK today. So what the child or the young person needs to do is try to figure out what's going to happen, because what we just talked about was the brain is always trying to figure it out. They're going to read your facial expressions. They're going to read body language above and beyond what maybe any other kid would do, create a hyper vigilance.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do I run Right, do I?
Speaker 5:power. Do I lean in for a hug?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean they have to be hyper responsive. I mean, can you imagine what that feels like? And so reactives, do I have to be exposed?
Speaker 5:Well, and it just feels much like.
Speaker 5:I mean this. I don't know that this is the right reference, but just what you were saying, sam. It feels like they're in kind of a war zone, right when they're having to figure out where I need to be to be safe, where's the risk, where's the, where's the harm, always having to assess those pieces and their senses, are their smell, their scent, their sight, their hearing, all those things are hyper aware, because the goal is to stay safe, just like it would be if you were in a war.
Speaker 4:So as far as behavior goes, sam, what you're saying all bets are off.
Speaker 3:Because, right, what we're talking about, too, is right in the home is one thing. Well, now this child, let's say they go to school and school is, school, is everything. I mean the teacher, the different teachers, now that they have to deal with coaches, you know anything they have to deal with, right, this child has to go meet every adult and try to figure out what they need to do to succeed here or to be safe. Really, you know, you'll have. I mean, I had teachers that were very avoided, like they never. Yes, yes, yes, very, you know.
Speaker 3:And I had teachers who were super carrying and nurturing, right, and you know that kid has to just figure out. But then when you move to the next class or the PE or whatever it is, that teacher can have a whole different style. I wouldn't, I wouldn't even say that these kids are suited to adapt, right, I think they have to just do what they have to do. So, creating distractions or creating problems, all those things, right, they may create a predictable response for you, right? Or they may just be very appeasing, right? You just never know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I could see these kids being difficult for caregivers to want to interact with, because you could go up to a kid and, you know, say, clean your room this morning did a good job, you just missed a sock. And they could be like, oh OK, yes, sir, thank you, and go pick it up. And then you go and say, hey, good job, you picked up your sock. And then they can be like in your face, cussing you out, and then you're like whoa, whoa, whoa, sorry, I just. And then they just dissociate from there, and so I wonder what that does to the relationship with the adult because we, as adults like predictability.
Speaker 4:True.
Speaker 2:So how do you think that could impact an adult wanting to have a relationship with these kids?
Speaker 3:Well, I've met. I've met all kind of kids, you know, kids that make you feel good one day and then don't want to be anywhere near you the next day and then you're sitting there and going what hat Did I? What did I say? I hadn't seen you since yesterday, when we had a great conversation, and now you're telling me to get away from you and you hate me. You know that creates not good feelings in adults.
Speaker 3:And you know for most people, we don't want to be around people who don't make us feel good, Right, right and so that and that. What does that do for the kid, though, when the adult now maybe wants to become a boy? Yeah, I'm going to avoid that kid, I don't really want to go.
Speaker 5:It goes back to our own attachment, right Right, because we have our own junk, right.
Speaker 3:So I may feel, oh, that kid hurts my feelings and whether they mean to or not, I'm not even thinking that, right.
Speaker 3:And then the now the adults respond is going to have whether that is avoidance or maybe an adult getting upset with a child and telling them hey, you know, or the kid gets in trouble, they.
Speaker 3:So, in a way, they may be just trying to control, right, and sometimes you might unintentionally tap into their private logic. You might be just affirming something that they believe is that maybe I'm worthless or maybe whatever that may be, and so they might. I'm not saying that every time, but you know they're in a bad mood and they go to the safe caregiver that was, or a safe person that was talking really nice to him yesterday, and come to that person and now say I hate you. They make that person go away from them, which you know maybe affirms their logic Because they're again. They're trying to create that predictability. They'll learn tools to create those things right, to create a predictable response to the adult. If I don't know what you're going to do, I, I know how to make you mad. At the minimum, I know how to get I know how to get me kicked out of your class.
Speaker 3:Yes, Right, there's things that they can control.
Speaker 5:Right, you know it's interesting, you're talking about parents, staff, caregivers and, just like with any attachment style or difficult attachment style, we want to support the caregiving, the caregivers, but this group of kids Dr Perry talks about, not necessarily in the context of disorganized attachment, but the man, the manifestation of these types of behaviors that the most impactful thing you can do for the child is to support the caregivers, because this is such a difficult caregiving care, caregiving child relationship and probably, I would imagine, one that wears out pretty fast. And so the people doing the work are the caregivers and a support staff or clinicians or you know, whoever else is involved the most, of course, provide interventions for the child, but primarily that the adults hearing for the kids need an incredible amount of support.
Speaker 4:I was thinking about as we talk about different folks that might be listening to the podcast, some, some that are parenting, maybe there's others that are working with children and other settings paid or volunteer. There's. There's such a thing. You're going to find out real fast when around a child with disorganized attachment, how much pride is still alive and well in your soul. Okay, you might think you have the humble award, but the minute, just as Sam was talking about a child really giving you some pushback and not affirming, maybe, what they affirmed to you the day before, suddenly are you offended, are you insecure, are you going to be counter aggressive.
Speaker 4:And I've watched this happen before with folks just good people that have done great work with kids and maybe they were in a setting where they were the hero of a one hour a week relationship. Maybe it was a youth night at church, or maybe it was a. They were a volunteer at the school or a coach or something, and they thought I got this kid thing, no problem. Well, then you come into a role, say as a house parent, for instance, and well, suddenly these children are going to be, they'll expose your insecurities really fast and that same person suddenly wonders well, what's wrong with this child, what's wrong with this place?
Speaker 4:And it's like, no, you just are learning right now one how much pride you're still tripping over. And a child with a disorganized attachment style is going to be unpredictable and this there's going to be. You're not going to be able to follow it so good good stuff that you both shared.
Speaker 5:Yeah, much like what Sam said. The unpredictable piece, right. So Sam was saying I can elicit from you whatever avoidant behavior or aggressive behavior or whatever, but I know it's coming. So if I go ahead and curse you out and you leave, I'm good for the day or whatever, and the next day and the next day and the next day I can't predict what you're, how you're going to be, but, like Sam said, I can elicit a response and then I've kind of brought that on before you bring it on. You know, and that's where we see that behaviorals.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because you can. You can prepare. You can prepare for a battle, you prepare, yeah.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 3:So, if you know, I have a door at my back and I have an escape route and there's an adult in my face and they are making me feel uncomfortable. Whether that's actually happening or not, you're perceived fear. You got all the control at this point to go ahead and set them off and get me out of the setting. Right, it's easy. It's easy. Teachers are overwhelmed, for example, I say because teachers, our caregivers do. They're right, and so they get overwhelmed with a classroom full of kids and now this child is scared or it needs to get out, and it's very simple to just refuse to do something or get explosive or yell at the teacher or whatever it is, and you get. You get a free pass to the principal's office and then maybe you could just go ahead and repeat that again and you get to go home.
Speaker 5:Right because it's safe, right, Safe.
Speaker 5:So they're seeking safety and even if to get to that safe space I've got to do something because I'm a teacher or whatever. But the goal is safety and it kind of makes me think about the difference between safety and felt safety and I think that's a struggle with a kid like this, because caregiver can say I don't understand, they're safe, there's not an abuser in this home or this, whatever you know. This child is eating three meals a day. This child's needs are provided for. There's no bullies here. Everything's safe, like on paper. And then the difference being the felt safety is the safety felt within the body. And when this a child grows up in a system that has caregiving that looks disorganized like this, there's just an ingrained felt of unsafety and that even goes to physiologically like increased heart rate, sweating, whatever it may be, and the difference between those two is really kind of hard to grasp. You know, I think I hear that a lot when he's saying she's safe.
Speaker 4:You know, I hope I'm not chasing a rabbit here too far, jumping out of the lane of this podcast. But with what, catherine? What you're just saying too? Also, I have learned a lot from working around some kids with disorganized attachments where the other thing a child might report is someone yelled at them Right. And first, when I would hear some of these reports and I was in the setting where this, wherever this happened or maybe I was the person that so-called supposedly yelled it was like well, that's simply not right and I thought the child was either was lying or exaggerating.
Speaker 4:And I finally come to realize they're reporting, really, what the way they experienced that and, because of some unfortunate early childhood things, even sensing some anger. As you're very carefully choosing words with a low voice they'll have experienced that as being yelled at, and they're not lying, they're reporting what they felt.
Speaker 3:So I was curious, as we're talking about this, we're talking about teenagers and maybe young kids, maybe toddlers, who are seeing. What does this look like for a one to three year old? Is that just?
Speaker 5:The disorganized, Disorganized right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what are they seeing? Because that's right, we talked about that's the most impactful time in a child's life where this is where that's going to start to form. And I know that could still continue on later, but so is that when a child cries and that, you know, is it just in the mix of everything.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think so. Monday I cry and I get my diaper change. Tuesday I cry and I don't get responded to. Wednesday, I cry and it makes my caregiver upset. And so it's the same thing, right, when the response to the child is disorganized or unpredictable, and it creates the same type of distress, except it's during a time when development and brain organization is key, very vulnerable.
Speaker 3:So, that being said, right then, when kids start to develop language and motor skills and maybe they're toddlers years at that point we're talking about that's when you can even see it I wonder how that affects the caregiver too, because now the caregiver has kind of created an environment in which the child doesn't have any predictability and now the child is doing the same things that we talked about even at that young age, and that's completely frustrating the caregiver. Even if it's their biological parent, that must be completely frustrating. My kid doesn't listen to me.
Speaker 3:My kid sits around and cries or whatever right, and it must be frustrating to the caregiver.
Speaker 5:Well, yeah, because we've kind of identified that the avoidant child will maybe look compliant or easygoing or might be that's how that child will present and we know kind of how the ambivalent child will present. But the same this child will have many presentations and it might perpetuate some of this stuff.
Speaker 3:Well, I imagine these kids get put on all kinds of meds and all kinds of things right. Because the caregiver simply doesn't understand and I want to argue this too that right that not argue, but state this is, I don't believe it's always intentional on the caregiver's part. Right Again, the busy society that we have, distractions, broken homes, all these things create an environment where sometimes the caregivers simply are surviving as well. So I want to, I do want to acknowledge that.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree I think we learn from our parents right, exactly. And our parents learn from their parents and just do what you've been shown to do. I don't think it's intentional.
Speaker 3:You know, and some kids are even parented by multiple. I mean, like you could have three people living in the house, or four people living in the house. They're all family and all are different, but all are in charge of the care of this child, and that it could not just be one person's fault. One person can be completely healthy when they're secure. Another person can be ambivalent, another person can be avoidant right, and all these things could create a mixing pot of things, right, cause we're living in a culture, too, where, like, people move in with each other, right. So now you have this other adult just living there, maybe couch surfing, and they have contact with this child, right, and so it's an interesting way of looking at everything.
Speaker 4:Josh teaches us in the training room to be curious when, when we're we're uh face with off-putting behaviors from kids.
Speaker 4:And I really appreciate that and one boy, something that I have learned and but I can still am learning but with kids with disorganized attachment style, to continue to step back, to be curious and to step back and look at a larger picture, because we oppose most folks like me will will tend to. If you're looking with secure attachment kids, um, if there's an off-putting behavior that happens, you know that's alarming and you're concerned and really trying to make a lot of it, but a kid with it with a disorganized attachment style, it's kind of like financial investing Don't overreact to the movement of the market in one day.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:To step back and look at larger trends, to look at the month, the year, the six months, the year, and to not make too much of that, to not brush it under the carpet, but to not be reactive and to make too much of that off-putting experience.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Well, and I was listening to a podcast yesterday and it was essentially talking about like just different types of attachment styles, but other things as well. And one thing that was said and it kind of goes back to Sam saying looking at the history, right, and that related to behaviors and simply that if, if the behavior feels disproportionate to the event or the experience, or the term used in the podcast is, if the behavior is hysterical, then it's historical.
Speaker 5:And I was so moved by that because it just speaks to kind of what we've said here is that if something feels so massive and so big like a behavior if I walk in the room and I'm simply walking into the room and a kid has a hysterical response, then there's something historical there and it's just being curious right, being curious, knowing that we all have a story, we all come from different experiences, whether that's good or bad, and I think, as we parent, that the the idea is that I'm not going to come into parenting my two children completely different than how I was parenting, but I can shift a couple of things here and there and train and change generation, generation, generation. And that's kind of how it has to be. It's not doable If we I mean it's ingrained in us how we are and how we parent. You know we can make changes and shift and change, but some of what we learned is good stuff, right Like, except we want to carry on with us. Some of it's not.
Speaker 2:So the research says that the general population, the style of attachment is actually pretty rare, like two to 5% of kids have it. But in at risk population this style is at about 80%. What does you guys's takeaway from those numbers?
Speaker 3:Well, it kind of goes to what I said earlier, right? So a child that ends up in a placement, a group living situation, for example, could have had a long journey. At some point they lost their biological parents whether that was at adoption or a loss or anything right, it lost their bioparent. Then they move into maybe a foster care, let's say, right. And then they got to live in there with all the different people that are whatever running an orphanage. Then we move into somebody adopt, right. And then you got these people who have great intentions but maybe are not prepared for already the amount of trauma that this child has received, Right. Then the adoptive parents don't know what to do and they look for group homes or other situations, right.
Speaker 3:So now a child has had I don't know how many different caregivers, and even in a place like this, I mean we, you know there's a, there's a, effectively there's turnover, um, there's, you know, I, I had a kid tell me they had 40 some different house, parents and their whole tenure here. So, right, all those things build a person. So why an at risk population? It could be 80%, is that? Well, they've had tons of different kinds of styles of caregiving.
Speaker 5:Well, in that primary caregiving, to have led them to removal correct. Would have, could have most likely been difficult, neglectful, abusive, whatever, and that's where you know that's set. That template starts and then all the other caregiving that was disrupted reaffirmed their original template so that, just like paved a concrete road over and over and over and over and over and over, made a very strong pathway about caregivers being disorganized.
Speaker 4:You know this piece here. That's just really a heartbreak. In my opinion, is the uh, a small child. Their imaginations and their spiritual development of spiritual beings will start to formulate what they picture God to be like, and that that's a kind of a universal passage for human beings. Well, this child, if think, this wonderful organ called the brain really is trying to make sense of the world. It does that for survival, connecting dots If the dots just won't connect and finally all you're left with is God must not like me and God is being arbitrary and picking on me, and that must be because I am bad or unworked. It's a terrible script that they're left with. So the stakes are very high.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know what. One of the things I was thinking about is that oftentimes, you know the kids are blamed for all this. You know it's there, they're a bad kid or they can't handle themselves or they are ADD or whatever Everybody says. You know, oftentimes, and you know they can't help it and they have to survive in the world that they've been put in, and you know it's one of the things that we have to change about our thinking is that you know, we are all created, a creation of our experiences, good or bad. Right, and everybody can be helped, and we.
Speaker 3:One of the things with this attachment style, like we discussed earlier, is that it can be super frustrating for caregivers, whether that's to biological parents or foster parents or group living parents, house parents, things like that. It is just looking at it, and we said a lot of good things like look at yourself because, right, there, style is going to affect me in a way, and how I was brought up, or my values, or things like that. And right, sometimes they're not. They're just trying, like I said, they're just trying to create some sort of predictability for them, and so I really like Catherine's If it's. If it's, what did you say?
Speaker 3:If it's hysterical it's historical right and right, that didn't come for me.
Speaker 5:It was on a podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah. But it's brilliant in my opinion it's brilliant. And you know because when I you know if it doesn't feel normal, you got to be more curious right.
Speaker 3:And that's, and that's the part is, I'm sometimes too busy to be curious. Right, I need compliance now or I need, I need, we need to move on. They imagine teachers, they got lessons planned, they got things to do, Right. The last thing I need to do is deal with this difficult child right and and but. Right. Just stop for a second, think and remember that everything we do impacts them, and whether that affirms their private logic private logic or not.
Speaker 4:You know back to Josh's question and his comment that you know this is the rare category two. I've seen it as high as 5% and I'm not sure how old that literature is, that that that reports that at risk populations it's around 80%. I wonder, because of some different unfortunate factors in play, I wonder if that base number is, if we would expect that to be climbing, if we're going to that at risk populations getting larger and if we're going to see that maybe 5% to 10%. Disorganize attachment style I know we've talked before that, the avoidant attachment style. It looks like probably with electronics and things like that that number probably will increase. But this one looks like it would increase as well, I think you're right.
Speaker 2:So let's look at this If I have a caregiver who is sometimes loving, sometimes neglectful, sometimes anxious and sometimes abusive, that's going to shape how I see the world. This is my template. Then what would my I am statement be? I am.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Unsure confused.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, others are unpredictable. Yeah, the world is chaos.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Chaotic, chaotic. And therefore I must hide Do what I need to do.
Speaker 5:Yeah, try to adapt.
Speaker 4:Now I'm going to ask you three this question Something I've seen here in my education as a chaplain here that I didn't sure didn't understand at first and I still don't understand much about it. But I've seen kids that come in from chaotic backgrounds that would, I would say, would be your disorganized attachment and they did For sad reasons came from this chaotic homes and to come into a setting with the things that they need of predictability, of safety, security, structure, balance with nurture and warmth and consistency that, when they're stressed, will try to recreate the familiar chaos because it's familiar. Is that something that would you agree with that? Is that something that that's a reality?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean the brain essentially like repetition and like to kind of know what to expect, right, and so anything outside of the norm or anything outside of what they've, what their experience has been, will come in almost like a stressor or a threat, until it processes through the brain and we, the brain decides this isn't a threat. But still, if, if you're used to chaos and somebody comes up and shakes your hand and says, good day, sir, or whatever, you're like, no, no, that guy should actually be growling at me or whatever, just because they're experienced, they've never experienced someone with kindness or a handshake or whatever, or that hand is not going to shake my hand, it's going to hit me or whatever it may be. And so, yeah, I think that what you're familiar with and what your brain is familiar with is safe, even though, obviously, from your example, the background that that child came from was not, but it's familiar. Anything novel is not.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, and I would think listeners would find that helpful to know if you're part of an intervention or you have a new child in the home that's doing all the right things and being that safe nurturing person. It's novel, like you said, catherine, so it might be viewed as a threat. It might, it might actually stress the child initially because they don't know how to relate to say a safe, a strong but gentle, safe male. If that's not part of a template that you're familiar with, even though that's a right thing initially, don't expect that that's going to be comforting.
Speaker 5:Well, the yeah, let's just say the child you're talking about spent a lot of time Sam referenced this a lot of time figuring out how to survive and how to make it work with this caregiver, right, Like 10 years. Let's say, I have worked 10 years to figure out how to make it work with this caregiver, and that's what I know. I don't know how to make it work with you as a nice loving male, I don't have that skill set. I didn't need that skill set. I needed this skill set, and so it's like re-learning, you know, and it's, it is. It's a lot, Wow.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like one of the biggest intervention is giving it time. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:Consistency time. I mean we said it before. We'll just use the example of like a 10 year old has been in that environment for 10 years and it's going to take a lot of time to undo or unwire or create new pathways, given that that was their primary modality, kind of living for 10 years.
Speaker 3:Well, it makes sense that the the new caregiver is an adult and this child's life need to just model the opposite patient and consistent understanding right, if you're doing that while you're having a good conversation or you're doing that when you're having maybe a harder conversation or when the, the child's is loading on you right and unloading on you, um, if you remain patient and understanding and calm, right, that doesn't ever change and you're providing.
Speaker 3:It's going to confuse them a little bit and they you know, but you, you stay steady and don't let your emotions. You're going to feel a way inside, but if you, if you can remain predictable and do things that are going to deescalate the situation, for example, but that creates you to be a safe adult and maybe, maybe, to challenge their template a little bit, that maybe there's other people like you.
Speaker 4:And, like Josh says, it's it. You can't get around the the element of time. I mean it's it's. You're investing in the market. You're and don't overreact to what the market does in within eight hour window, right, and but what I and what your listeners would probably benefit from and I bet everybody at this table has been around some of this that disorganized, attached child it is.
Speaker 4:It's a, it's a long, it's a journey, it's a and it takes time and what will happen is it's not going to always be pretty and you very easily could lose your nerve and question the plan. What Sam says be be gentle, predictable, present, nurturing, structured and all of a sudden, well, maybe we're doing something wrong and you're just going to start to shop around what we need to do this child and you might have some voices in your life that have good intentions but really don't have the right information and are going to think there's a way to fix this overnight and you're going to jump from this advisor to this advisor to this advisor. I've seen that before and it might even be family members that are watching in horror what they think is things not happening fast enough, but hopefully anybody listening would know that the what you're doing with that child? Yes, it's making a difference. Now choose your counselors wisely.
Speaker 5:Well and find support. You know, I think, like we spoke about earlier, because it is going to take a long time, because it is tedious work, you have to, as a caregiver, take care of yourself and surround yourself with support so that you can sustain your work Right. So, whether that's respite care, whether that's being involved with other families in the same situation as you, whether that's professional help, whatever it may be, your ability to sustain as a caregiver is going to be the most important intervention for that child.
Speaker 2:I really want to thank you, catherine, sam and Mike, for the wisdom you've provided today, and I want to thank you all there in podcast land for hanging out with us. I hope you're feeling a little less disorganized or confused than when we first started. And just remember you're going to have to loan out your front of lobes today, so just make sure you get them back.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Brain Based Parenting. We hope you enjoyed this show. If you would like more information about Cal Farlies Boys Ranch, our interested in employment, would like information about placing your child, or would like to help us help children by donating to our mission, please visit CalFarlieorg. You can find us on all social media platforms by searching for Cal Farlies. Thank you for spending your time with us and have a blessed day.