Prepare for the Drop
Are you struggling to prepare for Special Warfare Selection? Join Brian Silva, Pararescueman, Physician Associate, Human Performance expert, and Strength and Conditioning Coach to find out how to prepare your mind and body to get selected at USAF Special Warfare Assessment and Selection.
Prepare for the Drop
You Only Fail IF You Quit
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Today we are talking with Jordan who is a candidate in his late 30s and He has been through multiple unit specific selection events and was selected after multiple attempts but unforeseeable circumstances he had to give up his spot.
Now he is looking to come back in again and give it another shot. Through this conversation he discusses all of the challenges and tests he had to go through in order to be selected as well as the key traits the units were looking for in selecting a member to their team.
Not only does he discuss key selection criteria from the cadre perspective, but also the feedback his team gave to him during the process. An important and often overlooked aspect of selection is the peer review process. What happens at selection does NOT stay at selection and will likely follow you through your career. Make sure you are putting your best foot forward.
This episode is great for any candidate to listen to what got him selected but especially for those who are looking to go into a guard or reserve team as an older candidate. In addition we will discuss three key traits of what makes a person a good candidate in special operations.
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The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed on this show belong solely to Brian Silva and his guests and do not represent the views, thoughts, or opinions of the DoD. The content here is for informational and entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for professional medical advice. The use of information or materials linked from this show or website is at the user’s own risk. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychologist, or other qualified professional, diagnosis, or treatment.
Persistence and Sacrifice in Military Selection
Speaker 1obviously everyone's biggest fear . When you're growing up , you know like who's going to save me ? Am I going to pass it underwater and never wake up ? And then is it worth it if I do that ? To find a person that has that kind of attitude about life is kind of what makes a PJ in general . It's just like what will be will be and it's that others may live , and that's why I'm sacrificing everything that I have right now in order to be that person that is able to go and make sure that other people are able to continue to live their life . And that amount of sacrifice it is difficult to find and difficult to train , and that's why they're spending all this money trying to find that person that's willing to do that . What's up everybody .
Speaker 1Welcome back to Prepare for the the drop today . I have Jordan on . He's been going at it for a real long time and we're going to talk a lot about persistence and what it takes to continue this battle and why he wants to do it in the first place . So he messaged me back in 2018 for the first time and ever since then we've kind of been back and forth in contact , talking about where he is , and this is the first time that I've actually gotten to speak to him , not in person , but over video . You know , and Jordan , if you don't mind , just introducing yourself and tell us . You know where you're from and where you're at in the process .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm Jordan , from Utah originally but bounced around kind of a lot all over the world . My last stint , more or less , was in Hawaii for a long time doing stuff out there , and then I had a buddy who joined the army for SF and he kind of inspired me to look at that route military route and I had a bunch of family in the air force and so I looked and I found about out about pararescue and I was like , wow , that is that's where I need to go . So , yeah , back when I was like 33 , 2018 yeah , so a while ago . And then the process well , well , I don't know how detailed you want me to be on that part , but it's been a long one all right .
Speaker 1So I guess from the beginning you were in . I think you're in Hawaii when you first contacted me and you were talking about going into the guard , and what was the process for you like going into the guard ?
Speaker 2So that , yeah , initially I found your YouTube videos before you had anything else really .
Speaker 2I found some YouTube videos and had anything else .
Speaker 2Really , I found some YouTube videos and and , uh , then , yeah , we got in touch and and I initially was going to go active duty , but then , via your workout programs that you had up , um , I connected with uh , older dudes we called ourselves like the wise owls or something stupid like that , but we got together on facebook as like a little chat of like dudes over 30 who were interested in this and they , they all , all of them were like you gotta check out the garden reserve units . And I was like , uh , no , and it convinced me to , and so , yeah , I went . I ended up and it's honestly a selection process in and of itself trying to find out point of contacts and like how to even get on the list for a tryout in any of those units , um , but I did and I went to my first one um and didn't get hired and then , two years later , continued trying to keep my fitness up and everything up . Two years later , I went to my second one and got hired at that one .
Speaker 1Okay , yeah , so real quick on that , not to take away from the selection process of filing paperwork and getting the right contacts but what did you find was the thing that helped you the most as far as getting hired at one of those units ? Because I mean , even me , I text around to different guys and they're like , well , this guy's a POC now , no , it's not that guy anymore . The other guy is a POC and you kind of get passed around a little bit and I can only imagine that it's somewhat the same for you . Actually , I have access now to a PJ group where it's somewhat the same for you . Actually , I have access now to a pj group where it's on uh , another app that we made , and there's like a thousand guys in there . So now it's maybe a little bit easier . But what did you find the most effective to get in contact with the poc ?
Speaker 2uh , persistence , like you said , because , if you , I kind of like talked to everybody I could , I started where I could with our little group on Facebook . Those guys knew some dudes who knew some dudes kind of thing and eventually got into where I needed . But I talked to a bunch of different units and , honestly , instagram there's some J's on Instagram who kind of have a presence there that , at least to me , were very helpful in that they're not pocs or anything , but they were good um references , uh for that to kind of help me figure out who to talk to . And then , once you get down to the right person , then you can get on the list . So , honestly , I think like online stuff , like social media , was helpful and then just asking around , honestly .
Key Lessons for Selection Success
Speaker 1Okay , and what did you learn that made you more successful the second time around , when you went to selection for that ?
Speaker 2So my initial tryout , I didn't really know what I was getting into . I did kind of you know , there's like they try and imitate ans essentially , or at least a day or two at ans plus some they're not under atc . Uh , so they do what they want and it's . It's a wild ride and this the , the cards are stacked . My first tryout we had a dude who'd been through buds , we had two coast guard rescue swimmers and , uh , tag p , and they all got hired and the rest of us guys didn't . So they offered feedback and I persisted in getting in touch with the team leader for feedback on that and it took a while , but he just told me well , you got to know what we're looking for and your physical stats weren't the best Because back then it was like a modified past , it was essentially the past of the longer run .
Speaker 2Uh , second tryout I , they did the OFT , modified OFT , and my I , I , I , somehow , and I this , I don't really know how , but I crushed it Like , uh , the three mile rock I I got I don't know , like a 10 minute pace or something like that . So I did really well . Um , and the fin , like I crushed that too . So I was stoked on that and there's without going into too much detail on the on the other stuff they do to you .
Speaker 2Um , I kind of excelled in those ways , but I think being being a team player is huge in showing that , like you're , you're looking out , it's a competition , but you're also looking after your guys . So if they need help with their gear , helping them with their gear . There's there's dudes that show up there who have no idea what they're getting into and they don't know how to pack a ruck , or they don't know how to maybe set their fins , mask and snorkel correctly , and so helping them out with that , or their stuff falls out of their ruck or whatever , and you grab it for them . That stuff is huge , I think .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's definitely something that we harped on a lot . When , you know , new guys came in active duty going to in doc when I was the instructor guys that just look like a yard sale and as soon as they open up their ruck , the wind's blowing and there's baggies everywhere and there's little snack wrappers all over the place . It's like dude , you can't be operating like this and it just makes you look like a shit show when you just have everything all over the place . So , yeah , that is one of the key details that I think people don't really pay attention to much , um , because they don't think anything of it . You know , they relate it to their school backpack , which maybe you can make some relations to that . But you can throw pretty much anything you want . You can have a banana on the bottom of your backpack for a month and the only person that's going to care is you , because you put your hand in there and it's squishy , whatever it's just .
Speaker 1Uh , you got to pay a lot more attention to your rock , because when you're in the mindset of like a PJ who don't want on my team , do I want , like guy with a smelly rucksack that's , you know , has garbage all over the place , or do I want a dude that's solid and knows exactly ? You know , we used to test each other and we should be able to blindfolded or under MVGs , of course you're not able to see a lot , so you should be able to just open up your rucksack , you know , obviously taking a knee or whatever you got to do reach your hand in , grab out whatever you need , because you really don't really have a lot of sight , when you know we had the little . Well , originally we had the 18 , which were one , the monocle ones , and then we had the but you need to be able to do that either way .
Speaker 1Even if you're you have the best night vision , don't rely on that and rely on your muscle memory to be able to get the thing that you need , because that's just what's needed . You don't need to be fumbling around with stuff . So , yeah , that is a really important part and I'm glad you mentioned that too . But that reflects a lot on how much you've practiced and how much you've trained and to what level . So I think I don't know if your wise out group or whatever taught you that or talk to you about that , but that is a definitely important thing If you can get around other guys that are like-minded and they can share tips , especially if they've been in your situation where you've actually been to a selection and you kind of know what they're looking for .
Speaker 1Which is like which guy do I actually want to hang out with and be on my team and not be annoyed by the little things that they're not paying attention to , Because if they're not paying attention to these little tiny things that they can control right now , like later on , it's going to turn into okay . Are they not paying attention to making sure their um , you know sites in their rifle , have batteries , like crucial things , which are little things , but they can turn into crucial things when you know you're on target and you don't have Peltors or you don't have batteries that are working in your sites for the mission , you know . So all those little things turn into big things .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think you you nailed it on the head when you said who , who would you want to be on a team with in like a high stress , intense scenario and it's obvious like the dudes who got hired are those shining stars was like , yeah , I want him next to me while I'm trying to do something like ridiculously difficult , as opposed to that other guy who's just lost in the woods , you know yeah , yeah , and it's honestly a lot easier to see , like when you're being selected and you're one of those candidates that are trying to like focus on all the little things you got to do .
Speaker 1You don't have the big picture . So when you're the cadre and you're just like standing there watching this guy who's been trying to open his rucksack for the past two minutes , well , or get his socks on , or you know , just little things like that , and you're like , dude , everyone is already over there , they're drinking water and we're about to go for this next round and you're still trying to change your socks out and get your boots on before we do this . So that's what I mean the little things that , um , you can control and you can practice , even as dumb as it sounds . That was one of the first things that we did when I showed up to INDOC back in 2005 . We had a ranger and a recon guy on our team and they're like all right , we're going to time , you guys putting on your clothes and taking off your clothes , and we're like this is so dumb .
Speaker 2I can't believe you're making us do this .
Speaker 1I know how to put on my clothes . But it paid off , because when you have your clothes in your rucksack you had to have them inside of a big old Ziploc and then take that stuff out , make it nice and neat , Because back then we also had to have a starched uniform inside of our Ziploc , which you guys don't have to do anymore .
Speaker 1but you had to have a nice uniform , then we had to have a field uniform . We had to be able to change out quickly and obviously you didn't want to mess up the wrong one and you had to know where things were , because if you wore your garrison uniform and then you messed that up , then it's just your SOL and then you show up with your field uniform to something more formal like the chow hall or whatever , and you just look like a bag of ass . So anyway , all those little things that you can practice and people don't again pay much attention to . So it sounds like that is kind of what you learned . And then the attitude .
Speaker 1I don't know if you were able to keep up with the TACP and the rescue swimmer guys that you had previously worked out with or asked them for tips personally , but I think if you're able to do that , then that's always a good option , especially if you put in a lot of work and they feel like you're able to do that , then that's always a good option , especially if you put in a lot of work and they feel like you're a solid teammate , and then you'd be like hell , yeah , man , this is what you sucked at , and they'll be pretty candid with you if they're former team guys for sure , which is exactly what you need to do , and take that all in Like all right , what can I fix , and what can I fix ?
Speaker 2Right . Asking for feedback is huge too , like being humbled enough to be like , yeah , I could use some tweaking , especially as an older guy , like , so my first tryout was 34 , my second was 36 that's how old I was and getting help from dudes who are 10 years younger than me . That's like a humility check . But I was willing to take it because , like , hey , I know I don't know what they know , so cause I , I went through both trials with guys who were in the military in one capacity or another and had excelled at least in a few areas . So , yeah , they had something to teach me . So
Importance of Feedback and Mentality
Speaker 2that's huge . Asking for feedback , absolutely , and and being humble enough to do that .
Speaker 1Yeah , and yeah , there's a lot of checking yourself , especially when you kind of know there's some things that I'm sure that you knew , um , that they didn't pick up on , or maybe just being perceptive in general , because guys who are younger are less likely to have that kind of you know , perceptive ability about them , and but there are a lot of things that they've done , like going on ruck marches and whatever , especially if they're former seals , tech P and you know whatever else , like they know how to do all those things in particular , and , at the very least , you know if you've been in that situation and you know now if you are to go back to selection , you know , uh , I'm sure that you would want to impart the knowledge on those guys that are a little bit newer , like , all right , let's take some time out and let's , you know , do some dress rehearsals . Let's do some um meaning like take on and off your your boots especially cause that takes forever socks , especially when they're wet and sweaty and you have to , uh , take care of your feet , whatever you know .
Speaker 1those little things that you know tripped you up whenever you first started out . So , um , it's good to have those guys in your corner and , just like you said , on social media , there's plenty of forums out there of guys who have done it and been there that can talk to you about whatever thing that they struggled with , because everyone has a different thing that really sucked and stuck out for them . So , yeah , yeah totally . So I've been asking you questions and I feel like I know you .
Speaker 2You had some questions for me , so go ahead and you know can I just say something real quick about the , the tryout for guard and reserve units yeah sure so that that the guys know that it's .
Speaker 2You have to be so squared away , like if you're not already in and you don't know how the military works , um , and you get hired as a civilian , like I did . I think I was . I had a little bit of luck to the guys I got hired with um one had been through in doc and ans , fully completed , non-select , and then two other guys who are non-selects from ans and then me and um . It's , it's all about being like completely squared away with your training and with your being a teammate as well . I think that's kind of what I want to say . Cause I don't want , cause it can be a huge , massive gut .
Speaker 2They make it in my mind , they make it harder than any couple of days in ANS so that you'll , you know , finish ANS . That's kind of how they gauge it , I think . So don't show up unless you're completely squared away . You have a nice haircut , you're going to get interviewed . It's a job interview , but it's like a crush you and then a job interview , kind of thing . So that's that would be my suggestion for guys trying to go that route . But questions for you . Yes , I want to know what , because you were down at INDOC for a while as the proctor , like the head of the cadre , correct ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I was the instructor supervisor for about two years .
Speaker 2Okay , so you've seen a ton of cones come and go and my question is what , from your perception , makes that little bit of a difference ? Because that's what I don't I still don't get my my . I feel like I'm very . I know a ton of pjs . My really good friend from hawaii . He's now um in one of the sf groups and I don't see a lot of difference in our like mental toughness stuff .
Speaker 2We've been through , like my SF buddy , we've been in like massive waves , thought we were going to die a few times together and we both like did really well , but he's ends up being successful in his pipeline and I'm not . I'm just like what is what am I missing ? You know what I mean , like where , maybe from your perception , you've kind of seen little little tweaks and , it's for sure , mentality thing for me and I just wondered what maybe insight you would have on that , like I'm not just some like younger dude who came off off the street , like I've been through it , you know , and in different ways in in life , um , and been through a lot of like really difficult things , um , so that's my question Does that , does that make sense ?
Speaker 1Yeah , that definitely makes sense . Um , I think one of the things that people definitely need to realize is that you don't have to be an absolute physical specimen to make it through selection . You have to have put in the work and people can tell when you've done that , and obviously some people have more genetic potential than others to just put on muscle and get to where they need to be . I think let me just give you an example of one of the guys that just popped in my mind is just Mike is his name , and I've been on some deployments with this guy , but he showed up . He was a dude from Hawaii and he was like hey , I'm , I'm here for skydiving school . Is that ? Is this where we ?
Speaker 1learn how to skydive and he was just one of those guys that everyone just liked . He said just funny things , even though sometimes like what are you even talking about right now ? But he always said it in a way where everyone just liked him , and he's carried that on throughout his entire career and sometimes when he was a younger guy . I don't know what he's like now , but I'm sure he's way more squared away .
Speaker 1But even if he messed up he just had this attitude about him where it's like , oh , it's okay , I'll take care of it , no big deal , like I got this . And I say that because , to a certain extent , we want a guy who who just has has it like , if you're , you're building out sectors and you're like , okay , we're going to just go up to just near the top of this in this bush or this little group of trees , and then we're going to pull 360 security and you're supposed to take care of a certain sector , you want to know that that guy definitely has that sector because you've worked with them and you know that they're not going to screw up that really important thing In between there . Maybe they'll mess up little things or whatever , but the important things are always taken care of and it's the ability to identify what things are actually important to the mission by breaking it down into just like I said is it a big deal if the sights on your weapon are not working ? Probably , but is it a big deal if your secondary flashlight batteries I don't know aren't necessarily working but you have backups and whatever ? Like there's ways to work around that . Like you have a primary flash , okay , that's working , whatever . If it's secondary , then you know whatever . So I mean , there's just certain things that you need to be able to prioritize and be able to tell like for this certain mission . These are the things that I really need to focus on and think about , and , beyond that , it's the person that is willing to put forth the effort to show up for the team when they need it .
Speaker 1Some people show up in different ways ways and that depends on your personality , like that guy that I was talking about . He showed up as a lot of times , comic relief for the guys , and I'm like , okay , we need to have that kind of guy around . There are other guys who showed up and if we needed a certain skill done , they had it on lockdown . This , this is their thing . Like , send them in . They're going to crush it , I know for sure .
Speaker 1Or if there's a person that we needed to like have relations with , for example , from our unit , like , okay , who wants to go , we need somebody to go and be an attachment with the seals or be an attachment with whoever . Like we don't want to send the knucklehead guy who's always messing up and doesn't know his gear from his ass and he's just constantly fumbling around . We want to send the squared away guy who constantly shows up with his things ready to go . And if he doesn't show up because he's a newer guy ready to go , we tell him one time and he fixes it . And it's even better than we told him to because he researched it . He asked all the other guys what else they're doing and he 100% corrected that thing . So it's a little bit of a blurry answer that I'm giving you here .
Speaker 2That's good information .
Speaker 1It's , to a certain extent , likability . Teachability goes with being able to be trained , and then attention to what needs to actually be done . Attention to detail in all aspects would be amazing and that would be great , but it's more important to prioritize those things you know like . As PJs , we triage patients , of course , and triage is a French word for to sort .
Speaker 1All that means is for those guys who aren't familiar with medicine or emergency stuff . All you do , you pick a patient and you have three or four in front of you and you're like which guy should I focus all of my energy on ? Because my energy is most likely to save this person's life and we need to get them home . I have the chance to do that , and there are some people who are too far gone in order for you to actually be able to help them , so you might not need to focus on them , even though they seem the most critical . What assets do I have available ? How much time do I have to get them to a place where they can be fixed ? Is it more appropriate to give my materials that I have Cause I have limited resources to this person versus another person who might not make it ?
Speaker 1So , the same kind of thing has to go on in your head . Um , when you're doing any kind of event throughout selection , you know it's like what's an appropriate time to take a drink , eat a snack ? Am I focusing on my feet , the team , the count ? There's a lot of things , because you've been through it , all the things that you need to focus on and what is just chatter , Because sometimes , as an instructor , we'll just create situations because we just want to see how you react . There's nothing really that urgent because it's selection , Like a lot of it , is just to get you riled up and get you feeling something and get that adrenaline pumping to see how you react .
Speaker 1And are you going to react by shaking and not being able to , you know , put in the IV , not being able to just remember the count ? You know if you're counting off on the pool , remember where you are and remember what you're supposed to be doing , because there's procedures that you'll be taught to do . So those little things that you need to do are really what differentiates the guys that I see make it and not make it . So it's just likability , trainability and ability to triage what needs to be done and what is the most efficacious for my effort .
Speaker 2How would you say about someone feeling like it's okay to make a mistake , because I think myself and other guys get a little worked up in like I can't make , I can't drop the ball at any point , or whatever consequence will happen , like I'll just get smoked till I quit or whatever you know . So I think that's kind of a pitfall for me that I realized as you'd like answering that question .
Speaker 1Yeah , so again , as a instructor , we would . It would be easy to identify those guys that got upset at themselves for making mistakes and you can pick at them all day because as soon as you're like , you know if it was you Jordan , what are you doing again ? Why is your water bottle not full ? Why are your fins messed up ? Why is this ? And that it really comes to . It really almost selects yourself as that person when people have to constantly say your name and know your name for those kinds of reasons . We notice guys for good reasons too , but we're just like , oh okay , well , that guy seems like he's doing all right , let's focus on who we need to get rid of here , Cause it's you know , it's a selection process and obviously they're not doing that as much anymore , like you're not going to get as much feedback verbally in NS anymore .
Speaker 1So it's hard to tell , and that's why it's definitely important for you to get feedback from your team to see if you're doing a good job and what things you can improve on .
Overcoming Challenges in Mental Fortitude
Speaker 1Because again , just like I was talking about with the ruck scenario , your head's down , you're not able to see everything that's going on , what everyone else is doing well or not , especially when you first get there . But it's really those guys that you can . They're just so tight . You can just pick on that string over and over again and they're just so tight . You can just pick on that string over and over again and they're just gonna , you know , shake and almost , almost feels like they're gonna come apart , because you just know in their mind they're just scared out of their mind to make a mistake . And again it comes back to knowing what mistakes are acceptable and not acceptable so what would you consider mistakes that are not acceptable ?
Speaker 2I'm curious , um , besides like flagrantly obvious stuff , like freaking out at a team member caught or , you know , getting in a fight or something , what would you consider not acceptable ?
Speaker 1yeah , any kind of integrity violation , of course , is one of the first things . That that immediately sets off all the red alarms and people are just like I , just I can't trust that dude , no matter what . Like um , I've had some guys when we were doing buddy breathing and they're like I didn't pop , I know I didn't . I didn't do that . No , I was like I saw you , sergeant , whoever saw you , and this guy or I didn't touch the wall . I didn't touch the wall at all , sergeant . It's like everyone saw you do that . So own up to it at the very least . So those things are completely unacceptable .
Speaker 1Um , throughout selection , it's kind of hard to say that one thing , one instance is unacceptable . For example , we have guys who I don't know something easy like mislabeling your gear . It's on your gear backwards compared to everyone else . Like okay , hey , why is your gear jacked up ? Fix it , make it look like everyone else's . If they show up again the next day and it's the same way and it's like dude , I told you yesterday to fix this thing and that's where it starts becoming a problem . So , like , little things like that aren't a big deal the first time , but if it's just a constant thing where it's just like not trainable , then sorry you're not going to be a part of the team , but for the most part , things that are not forgivable are integrity type violations .
Speaker 2Sure , okay , cool . I was also wondering what you thought about so wording on this one as well gap in my mentality , I know for sure was got to that point where I'm looking at whatever time frame , two more months of this and every day gets more difficult , and that overwhelmed me . So my question is what that's a mental skill , and I would guess I'd call it like chunking down a big project into smaller pieces , to put it generally speaking . So that's the skill , chunking down into pieces and how do you train that outside of ? How do you train to that level for ANS outside of ANS ?
Speaker 1Yeah , that was one of the things that we used to talk about a lot with the students and you know we just give the analogy of like how do you eat an elephant ?
Speaker 1There's just one bite at a time . But the thing that kept me going , you know when , when I went through INDOC , was two weeks of prep and then 10 weeks of INDOC , so it was just what you thought it was . Every single day you're getting your balls smoked off and just you never know what's going to happen , because any day could be like the worst day , even though you know we thought of the cadre as like robots and just like these guys are freaking machines and they're hero , like in my mind , they were superheroes because they did the job that I wanted to do and they were super jacked , and I just were superheroes because they did the job that I wanted to do and they were super jacked and I just had all the respect in the world for them . So when they said to do something , it was like , oh okay , yes , sir , you know well who else are you and you take care of things .
Speaker 1Um , and it is hard to be in that state for such a long period of time . What one of the things that , um , honestly , I think it was Major Adrian that said to me was said to us as a team it's just that you are going to be going through the next 10 weeks , no matter what . You can be here on the team or you can not be on the team and have wasted all the rest of the time that you put before this 10 weeks to get this done . So in my mind , I had committed to being there until the end , no matter what . If I passed out , I died , and I actually still have .
Mentorship and Perseverance in Military Training
Speaker 1I had one last night nightmares about being at in doc and just like all right , I was like I was thinking about it last night and I woke up and I was like , oh shit , like I was , I was on a pool deck and they were talking , they were yelling at me Cause . I was like , why am I at Indoc again ? Like , oh my gosh , we're at the pool , I'm going to have to do freaking underwaters again and was it black Thursday .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , everyone was screaming . Yeah , everyone was screaming . Like I don't know why I'm here , but I guess here we go again . I'm just gonna do it and like I , was fully committed .
Speaker 1I didn't know I was there , but you know I was just like all right , I'm gonna do this 100 , let's freaking do it . So I mean , it's just that's . It's hard to really like put into words , but once you have convinced yourself that there's no other way and that's part of the burn the boats mentality it's just that , no matter what , I'm going to see this whole thing through and I'm going to be here at the end and I'm going to do the best I can with the limited knowledge that I had when I was 20 years old going through this thing , or I was 19 , 19 . Um , but you know , being a kid , I was just like I don't know . At a certain point you have to be stupid , honestly , like you just have to be so dumb that you turn off your brain . You're just like all right .
Speaker 1All this chatter that I have going on in the back of my head of like what about this ? And this other thing , just like okay , what do they want me to do right now ? The next thing what did he just say ? What did he just tell me to do and what else can I do right now ? That's all I need to think about is that moment , because I remember there were times , a lot of times during Hell Night , that I saw guys that I had thought were way stronger than me , guys that I had thought were way stronger than me , and I really looked up to you know , in the month or whatever two months that I had known them . When we got in the military and they're just talked such a big game and I saw them up on the deck and they were blowing the horn , I was just like what am I still doing here ?
Speaker 2Like how did I ?
Speaker 1how am I still here If these guys , you know , ended up quitting and I was like , well , they just said go , so I don't have time to think about that .
Speaker 2So stick my head underwater , start doing strokes .
Speaker 1So it's really just what is the next best action that I can take to get this done . And I think the hardest time for me was , honestly , every morning when I woke up and we'd wake up at like 3.30 , 3.45 or whatever and I'm just like man , I don't want to do this at all .
Speaker 2Everything hurts .
Speaker 1And I'm just super sore and after I got like four hours of sleep because I had to take care of my gear . But once I put my foot on the ground I made the promise to myself that I'm not going to quit at all during the day . Nobody can quit during the workday , and that was one of the things that we used to say to each other . It was just like nobody quits , you can quit once we're all done . If you want to quit , but you don't quit during the events , because I mean , realistically , that's the time when people want to quit is like okay , the next underwater they told me to go like all right , go or quit , cause that's when it hurts .
Speaker 1But when you are around your friends and you have good teammates and you can talk to them and maybe doubts come into your head , you're like all right , we'll just quit tomorrow . And you just push it , push it on day after day , hour after hour or whatever you have to do . It's just taking that chunk . But I mean it is hard to stay in it . When you're just like man , this is stay in it . When you're just like man , this is fricking . I'm tired .
Speaker 1I don't want to do this anymore , especially as an adult . But , um , you know , like I said , it's just realizing that your time is going to pass one way or another . And do you want to be at the end of 10 weeks seeing your team graduate and go onto the pipeline , or do you want to be that guy that couldn't stick it in for that long , which is obviously , in the grand scheme of things , not that long of a time ?
Speaker 2no , not at all . I mean , yeah , it's already been over a year and it's like , well , that flew by . You know it's crazy . But I do think that is like kind of a downfall of revamping things and creating prep and then turning it into SWCC because they're trying to give dudes . My thought is they're trying to give dudes the opportunity to relax and chill . Um , but it just I would have done way better if I went straight into ANS . Yeah , like SWCC is not not .
Speaker 2And I talked to , you know , bk . I talked to BK about this a bunch before . But he was like , yeah , you know , seals run Naval Special Warfare , warfare , sf runs the army selection stuff and pilots run the usaps ans . And I'm like , yeah , it's overthought the whole setup now . And I just wasn't a fan of swick . Some guys are some guys like love the kind of like slow buildup or whatever . But in my mind I'm like , just throw me in it . I don't need like anticipation , I don't need to sit there and brood Like , I just need to throw in it and be like what the hell ? And then like figure my way out through it , you know .
Speaker 1Yeah , that was one of the things that I've talked to a lot of the instructors who are down there . They miss a lot of the mentorship parts , which was , honestly , my favorite part of being an instructor is that I can do whatever I wanted to with my team . Like you know , obviously there were rules to a certain extent , but when I say whatever I wanted to , I mean as far as mentorship , like I can just talk to them after I'm they're done with a long day . I'm like , yep , you guys got your ass kicked today . I know , because this is the exact thing that I was trying to teach you , or these are the things that I want you to think about when these things are happening .
Speaker 1Impart all the stories and talk about the real big why of like this is why I'm putting you through these things .
Speaker 1If I didn't care , I wouldn't put you through difficult situations , but the reality is that I don't want you to end up on the other side of ANS and graduated and then not be able to do the things that you need to get done in order for you and your team to come home alive , and that was , you know , why I put a lot of effort into making sure that happens and you know from what I've heard , is more difficult to do that now for the instructors . So you know , I'm sure that they have a method to their um , the way that they change things around , but it doesn't help when people who , like you said , are in charge of this , don't really have a strong reference as to what is necessary to mold and create the kind of person that we're trying to create , or find , rather um , through this selection process . And it's hard to convey that information when they're only getting a , you know , 30,000 foot view . They haven't been on the ground with the guys .
Speaker 2Totally , and I'm not talking shit on pilots . My grandpa flew . They haven't been on the ground with the guys Totally , and I'm not talking shit on pilots . My grandpa flew , my uncle's fly . Yeah , they're all bad-ass fighter pilots , but it's totally different , you know ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean yeah , they wouldn't send me to go and teach pilot school because I don't yeah , Like I don't know the culture of pilots , but I know the culture of pjs and there are definitely some things that you know .
Speaker 1I'm sure that they'll work out and there are plenty of good dudes that work down there and I'm sure that they have some kind of a weight of voice or opinion . But it's been a shifting model for the past pretty much . Since I left , everything shifted around a lot and it just continues to be somewhat of a moving target .
Speaker 2But a lot of the 80 at least of the core principles of what is necessary to to make it through still remain yeah , for sure , and I think I think it's important for guys to understand that initially it was a preparatory course for ans and it was pretty chill from my understanding from my buddies went through prep , um , and then they and it was pretty chill from my understanding from my buddies who went through prep and then they thought it was too easy . So they switched it to SWCC and took away some liberties and , like , made it a little more intense and then it's kind of like this halfway thing between ANS and prep . So don't expect I know they say that they'll like mold you in SWCC , but I , with other guys who are like-minded and trying to make themselves better , I'm terrible at computers and we were just talking about this when I hopped on , so I'm terrible at looking all that stuff up .
Speaker 1I know there are other guys who are super great at it , but the things that I'm good at are putting events together or putting you know puzzle pieces together , like with my hands the things that I can see . That's , that's what I'm good at . Um , other guys are really great with computers .
Selection Process for PJ Training
Speaker 1So find guys that are good at certain things and then have them like yeah , I read this and I read that and then verify it . Like you guys who are listening out there can always email me like is this a real thing that is going to happen , cause I read it on Reddit or whatever . Like find somebody who is a PJ or you can verify , has done some stuff before , and then ask them like is this a real thing ? Do instructors really drown you ? You know whatever . How should we prep ?
Speaker 1And you know , just go through that whole thing and show up . If you show up and you're just stellar and you pretty much know what to do , that's great . The only thing that I'll caution you on that , if you're listening out there , is don't show up and not be willing to change the things that you had been practicing . So it goes back to that teachable thing . If you show up and people tell you like , hey , this is not how we do it , maybe something changed from you . Know , whenever I was in as an instructor or whoever you talked to was in as an instructor and they want you to do it a certain way , be teachable above all of the things and be willing to change those habits that you might have .
Speaker 2Yeah , for sure I'm trying to think of what else . Those are the big ones I've also . I don't know , maybe this is good for other guys to hear . I work at gyms . I cover the whole state for equipment here and I was in one of my gyms and I saw this dude with the guardian angel , which you don't see every day . So I'm like , hey , man , are you PJ ? And I kind of prodded him with some questions . He's like who are you ? I'm like I'm sorry , I'm so and so whatever , but he is at the .
Speaker 2He was a active dvpj and now he is at the a guard , a national army , national guard , sf unit here down south . And we're just talking about uh , differences , um , the lifestyle , and uh , he , he was like kind of encouraging me down that route too . It's a little different how they , how the army has it set up . And I talked to my buddy who's in the sf group about when I was I would obviously talk , communicate a lot through him when I was in swick and the tryouts and stuff , and he was like , man , that's such a different type of selection .
Speaker 2Uh , this thing , the way that the , what the air force selects for , not maybe , maybe in a detailed sense , not like a general sense , like yeah , teammate , you know on top of your shit in general , but like doing underwaters on like the shorter and shorter intervals and stuff . He's like that's so , so , vastly different from what they look for in the army and I was just curious what your thoughts were on that , like like the air force standards , I guess , or like the procedures and processes of what they're selecting for , compared to like other units and stuff yeah , the the air force .
Speaker 1So they've always trained pjs to be water centric and that's why we retain the combat dive , whereas , you know , ccts and other guys have not retained the combat dive and a lot of it has to do with you know , for , for example , when you go to do a uh , we call it Rams mission , it's basically you throw a rubber boat out of the back of a C one 30 , you jump in after it and we used to do it at night in the middle of the ocean . Waves , obviously , rain , whatever's going on . Obviously there are certain parameters that are safety , but sometimes they can be waved and whatever happens . So you have to be extremely comfortable in the water . And I guess the Perfect Storm it's an older movie but if you go back and watch that it shows PJs in the middle of the ocean trying to rescue people and being in those kind of situations is why we have so much water centric type things . That , and we also retain the combat dive , which you know like , I went to the Navy seal dive supervisor course down there with them , which we didn't do a lot of diving down there , but if we did , then they would expect me to be able to keep up with those guys . If we did , then they would expect me to be able to keep up with those guys . So it's kind of a tradition thing . Also , comfortability inside of water in general , because if you're trying to pick up a patient , obviously you don't want to be the guy that's freaking out in the middle of the ocean while you're trying to pick up someone else . So that's why it's important for that to happen .
Speaker 1And I'm sure the people that are in charge of PJ selection training in general have brought up the question why do we even keep the underwaters there ? And , in general , why do we just get rid of them ? Because no one else really does that . You know , like all the rest of the guys , they'll do the ditch and don processes and they just don't do a lot of water stuff . So why do we have to do that ? And you know , if you want to advertise pararescuemen as being this person that can do anything in the water and be able to pick people up , that's exactly why and that's why we've had such a high attrition rate in general . I mean , it's the water . That's exactly why and that's why we've had such a high attrition rate in general . I mean , it's the water . That's where people quit is because you take away people's air and just like , all right , I'm out .
Speaker 1And you really , I mean you know I'm obviously a big proponent of keeping that , because that's where I found my resolve as a as a kid , when I stepped up and I saw everyone else passing out and like this is for real , I can pass out underwater , which is obviously everyone's biggest fear . When you're going up , you know like who's going to save me ? Am I going to pass it underwater and never wake up ? And then is it worth it if I do that ? And to find a person that has that kind of attitude about life is kind of what makes a PJ in general . It's just like you know what will be will be and it's that others may live . And that's why I'm sacrificing everything that I have right now in order to be that person that is able to go and , you know , make sure that other people are able to continue to live their life . And that amount of sacrifice it is difficult to find and difficult to train and that's why we're spending they're spending all this money trying to find that person that's willing to do that .
Speaker 1But if you have that mindset , and then you have the other three things that I talked about , then you're going to be an undeniable candidate that you're just going to make it through Like all right , this dude's going to be a PJ candidate that , like , you're just going to make it through like all right , this dude's going to be a pj , like I already know it , barring a freaking , I don't know wild boar coming out and like goring him to death while he's on a rock , I don't know , or maybe he'll beat that boar too . If he has that kind of resolve , you know it's just you . You have that person . Then , like , they're just on the knob and most of the time when you have a PJ that is squared away and continues to be and have that mindset because it can be there for a limited time and then some people were just like I got mine , I'm checked out , I'm done , and they stopped trying .
Speaker 1But if you continue through with that mindset for the rest of your life , then you're going to continue to be successful at anything that you do . I guess that's a long winded way of saying that . That's . That's kind of why I think that the water stuff has stayed in is just like you're literally not just , you're not just fighting through the pain . It's like you're willing to pass out underwater and just you know , I guess , sacrifice yourself , just like it says in the motto right , right .
Speaker 2It's interesting because I like the ocean . This doesn't scare me . I've been in like huge , massive breaking swells and like avid free diver . My max breath holds like four minutes and I've been like underwaters on like 10 second intervals but it's , it's still like got to me in the course . I was like not looking forward to the pool and we didn't ever get into anything that I considered ridiculous , like at tryouts at the garden reserve units . It's beyond , way beyond anything . You'll see it ans and different units are way tougher than others . Um , from what I've heard from buddies , but it's just really interesting .
Speaker 2I thought I was like super duper , squared away water wise . I was like that I would do it like I swam two to three times a week with underwaters and I would do water con every sunday pretty much for years on top of my free diving . And like I swam two to three times a week with underwaters and I would do water con every Sunday pretty much for years on top of my free diving and like surfing and whatever . And it's still like and I think it's just the anticipation . You know , the anticipation is , I think , my kryptonite because I have the skill . The skillset was there and like when I went down and talked to the cadre when I left , they were like what are you doing here ? Yeah , like we don't , we don't expect you to be here , and I was like , oh , you guys know who I am .
Speaker 1That's weird , but yeah , it was just kind of interesting yeah , we have uh , we definitely have a lot of conversations about like who looks composed , who doesn't , and there's always a round table like all right , go down the list looking at the stats of who's performing on what . Like , oh yeah , that guy , I've been seeing him , he's , he looks like he's struggling and every once in a while there is a guy that it's just like yeah , every time I see his name , like it's pretty solid and like he doesn't always , ever seem flustered or anything . But obviously you might be on that , um , the side of the spectrum where you're overly analytical about certain things and trying to can I ?
Speaker 2can I interject ?
Speaker 2yeah sorry real quick before you finish , because it popped in my head and it's stuck with me for years , something you said as a joke , I think , on . I think it was on a ones ready like forever ago . And you said , uh guys who score really high on a one's ready like forever ago . And he said , uh , guys who score really high on the ASVAB , uh like don't , don't quit during an event , they overanalyze during the downtime . And I scored really high on the ASVAB , like overanalyze . And I thought about that like for years ever since you said that . But sorry to interrupt you , but I just had to say that .
Speaker 1No , that's uh pretty , uh , I mean pretty much
Navigating Challenges, Simplifying Tasks
Speaker 1. What I was going to say is just that you start thinking about everything that is going on and just overthink things because , as you know , nothing that they're asking you to do is super complex .
Speaker 1You know , they're not asking you to solve long math equations because , I mean , I , I wouldn't be able to even do that Most of them can't do , that there are some nerds or whatever , but they're not asking you to do anything super complex , but it's just taking that chunk of all the things that they're saying to you and like , okay , what's important ? And honestly , I applied that whenever I became an instructor , because there was just mountains of information like , oh , read all these books and then you'll know something about in doc . And it was like , okay , how do I run this event and that event and whatever ? And as you go through each thing , you're like , okay , some of this is just like bullshit , like it doesn't really matter , it's just in a book .
Speaker 1But there are certain things that are really important , of course , safety wise , and the way that you control the movement to make it flow and to make it seem like you know what you're doing , even if you don't really know what you're doing . You could just improvise some of that to a certain extent . And that is kind of what it's like , um , to be on on missions . Honestly . I mean , you go through all this super long planning cycle and you're like this is going to happen , that's going to happen , and then as soon as you're you get there , it's just like , okay , none of that stuff happened . But what are the really important anchor points to this thing that I got to get done ? In order to get it done and make sure that I hit those things and then everything else , we'll just make it look like we know what we're doing , um because that's just all you can do in some situations .
Speaker 1So I think that is maybe to your detriment or to your benefit . However , you want to play that , play it , because there are plenty of smart people that are in the career field , of course . And if you're able to figure out , like , where does my brain power need to go right now or don't need , just need to shut it off and just say shut up , like , be dumb for a second and do the thing that they're asking you to do , and then yeah , do you know , mark divine ?
Speaker 2he's like a seal commander and he has a seal or SEALs or whatever .
Speaker 2Yeah , he's my , my , my firefighter , buddy's neighbor actually , but anyways , his book that I'm just going through , Unbeatable Mind , is one of the best I've I've read for , and it kind of goes along with what you're saying about me being on the spectrum of being like an overanalyzer , because it's like when I read it I was like ready for like a rah , rah , you know some Goggins , kind of shit , but it was like first thing you gotta do is meditate , like a Zen monk , and I'm like , oh shit what .
Speaker 2But to like quiet the mind and I'm like , well , and like when I was in Hawaii my first few years , I like lived in the jungle , ate fruit and like just didn't wear clothes . I was like a huge hippie , and so that kind of like spoke to me and like kind of like I think how I work and I think that's kind of like a path and you won't know until you like put it through the acid test , but like a path of like , hey , maybe this is like tools in your toolkit for , like you're saying , shut off your mind , be dumb , be dumb for a minute , which should really help me in a lot of just like , stop the over the chatter , you know yeah , what am I so in maverick the top gun .
Speaker 1So I don't watch a ton of movies , but when he I watched it the other day and I was like don't think , just do . And there's a lot of times that you got to just like that's literally . It like stop thinking about all the things . You really just need to . If you're doing 10 ups , do a pushup , jump into the water , swim to the other side , like that's it . Just don't pretty it up and try and make all these other things happen . Like don't bump heads with other people , make it to the other side and do pushups .
Speaker 1Like that's . That's pretty much it , right , so . But that is a good thing to bring to light for a lot of guys , because we talked about going on the internet and talking about all these things that you could do to prep , and at a certain point , that's great and it's great to analyze your plan and plan it all up , make it look pretty and perfect . But when you get there , you can use a lot of the training as just a toolbox to reach in and say , like I can use this right now or that right now , but don't expect to be able to build the thing as you set it in your mind . Um , it's kind of going to just be like Ikea furniture and they're just going to expect you to just say , okay , next step , this thing , next step , this thing , okay , now just put it all in . Before you know it , it'll be a couple months later and you'll be in the pipeline .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's the crazy part . It's like it's just , if you can yeah , kind of like . The aha I'm having is like if you can , just for me and people like me over analyzers , if you can just be stupid enough , dumb enough , like just do it long enough , which isn't that long , yeah , it'll be over before you know it , you know yeah , and then while you're doing that thing , just take time .
Speaker 1I remember when I was doing 10 ups and getting smoked , the most clarity that I had during those times was when I would actually have the wherewithal to look around and just look at everyone else's face and how much they were suffering . And I remember like I don't want to look like that , like I don't want to look like that , Like I don't , I don't want to have that look on my face , like you know , just like , like you're going to puke and like I just don't want to look like that so that me , concentrating , like , just focus on this , one foot in front of the other , don't think about the pain , don't think about , you know , whatever .
Speaker 1Right now my job is to duck , walk from here to there and then whatever happens after that I don't know , maybe I'll have to get in the water and do a 50 meter or whatever , but my job is to get from here to there and then , you know , I'll deal with whatever . I got to deal with that after that .
Speaker 2So for sure .
Speaker 1All right after that . So for sure , all right . So , yeah , we definitely covered a lot of ground here with your past , in going to the guard for two different selections . You got it on the second time and having good teammates obviously was beneficial . So if you are investing your time into trying to prepare for that , get up to the standards and know what you're going to do . Like you said , know your shit and make sure that you are around guys that are going to be able to teach you those things . If you don't have any , we'll find you somebody . So email me and let me know and we'll see who's in the area . I still have the Cone Connect , but honestly , I'm going to be changing that over and I want to make groups around the country where guys are able to link up and make sure that they're training correctly with each other and if you don't know the right thing to do .
Speaker 1Obviously , you guys who are out there listening can always just hit me up and ask whatever questions . If I don't know it , then I'll find the answer for you . So , beyond that , then I'll find the answer for you . So , beyond that , a couple of key things that we hit on was the ability to triage , the ability to persist .
Speaker 1Obviously , you have to be able to show up and show that you have put in the work and , at the end of the day , just put one foot in front of the other and get done what you need to get done . And if you are a different person who's not an overanalyzer , and you're a person that under analyzes , you might be better off , but at a certain point you're also going to be upgraded to , you know , a team leader responsibility . So if you are that person that you know it's too easy to take it one step at a time , then start lifting your head up a little bit more and start seeing what's going on with the rest of the guys , cause before you know it , a couple of years are going to pass by and you're going to be the team leader and you're going to be in charge of everything else that's going on . So , um so , really important points and I think that you hit on a lot of um great things for guys to learn from , and I look forward to hearing of your future success and everything that goes .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1How many months out are you ?
Speaker 2So I think I my understanding . I still don't have exact answers , but my understanding is that could be a year . But to be a hundred percent honest , I'm still considering that guard sf unit um down south here . So , uh , we'll see . Um , I'm kind of playing . I have to get some more facts . I definitely have to gather a bunch of more facts on both sides . But , uh , for prayer rescue , uh , probably a year at least .
Encouragement to Help Others Grow
Speaker 1All right . Well , it's been a long journey and I'm sure that you'll , uh , figure out one way or the other . Whatever thing that you you want to do , and you're persistent , you keep up at that one thing and dive deep , Like you know . You've you've experienced it in the past . So the only thing that I would ask of you is that you keep paying it forward and helping out those other guys who are in the position where you were , back , you know , when you first started this journey , and now that you have the knowledge and experience , is just you know , help out the team and continue to do what you do and I'm sure you'd you'll be awesome .
Speaker 2For sure . If you have someone you feel is like pretty squared away and they want , they're looking for pocs , maybe you could let me know and I can maybe help out with that too so cool .
Speaker 1You heard it , though you got to be squared away , so put in the work .
Speaker 2Definitely put in the work before you ask the questions .
Speaker 1It's always the rule absolutely um , all right . Well , I appreciate you hopping on here and talking , so I think there's a lot of great points and I will catch you guys next time later .