S1 E13- Charlotte Meiger - her story

Introducing Charlotte Meiger with her story...

Key points of the episode:

• How she could not believe what had just happened in court.
• How she asked for the notes of the trial but could not believe the extortionate price....
• And how she could not have got them if she wanted them.
• The useful changes in the law thanks to her pioneering work...
• ....but how much more needs to be done.
• How these ongoing changes help victims.
• Trauma informed ways to promote the information you want and need to process.
• How the system could be held to more accuracy and accountability with these changes (proof)
• How and when the pilot scheme was put into place.
• Further changes that are being pressed for.
• A certain cynicism....
• Wny some members of the system are resisting this.
• A possible use for AI.

Reach out to Charlotte on

www.openjusticeforall.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Hi there, this is Danny from Justice Is Now, and a very, very warm welcome to Charlotte Mayo. I'm so appreciative of you giving your time with us this evening to share your story and tell us a little bit more about your amazing charity, Open Justice for All.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Welcome Charlotte. Thank you. Yeah, so I started the Open Justice for All campaign pretty much the day that I left my own trial. I was so kind of frustrated and just couldn't understand what had just happened in the courtroom, and I really wanted to know what was said. So I started pretty much there, and then just trying to find out how I could get access to my court transcripts. And in the beginning, um, the first person I asked, um, they said, you know, it'll cost you£20,000 if you want them. Like, are you sure you want to keep asking for these? Um, and I was kind of taken aback, but I I I thought, you know, let's just go through the process until it really gets to that payment point and see what happens. And you know, the next couple of emails back and forth, it actually um came to light that because I was seen in a magistrate's court, my um trial wasn't even recorded, so I wouldn't be able to get any transcripts by the time that I'd gotten that answer. The notes that magistrates' courts do keep were already destroyed, so they only keep notes for the time that the perpetrator can appeal. So by that time, that time frame was over and all of the notes were destroyed. So, yeah, from there on out I kind of set out for two things to make sure that magistrates' courts would be recorded and then that all victims would be able to get access to their court transcripts for free. So that's what I've been working on with different um levels of success. But from January this year, you know, all victims now have access to their sentencing remarks for free. Um, and then in the latest um courts and tribunal bill, the amendment to make sure that uh magistrates' courts are recorded is in there, obviously yet to be finalised, um, but that's that's in there, so hopefully that's going to go ahead. Um, and yeah, working with the government to keep pushing for more because obviously sentencing remarks isn't isn't enough.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, I just wanted to say I think it's phenomenal how you've you know, having experienced what you went through and the setbacks, and ultimately, very sadly, not being able to access your transcripts, then then not even being in existence for you to to moving forward to create change for vulnerable people to be able to access their transcripts, to to have that information. It's so powerful. So that thank you for for all that you're doing and continuing to achieve. And you know, thinking ahead, kind of how could people support you further in your work? What more do you need? Um, you know, where where is their lack? Where could more change be be put into effect?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, I think the main thing is that people just don't know. They assume that you can get access to them, or if not, that it would be like a small fee. Um so I think just more people being aware to the fact that you can't just get access to them and and the barrier is huge. Um, I think once people know that, then there might also be a bit more public outcry. I think you know, so far the government um that is currently in place has been really understanding and and has um really done some things, but they need pressure on them. You know, it's one person shouting at them is very different to you know, thousands of people saying we need this and we need this for everybody. So um, yeah, it's that pressure on the government and that awareness is really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Um are there any success stories that you could share? You mentioned some people have been able to access the notes initially. Um, are there any success stories that you're able to share of people that you've supported with that and some positive outcomes?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Absolutely. So before the government um put this in place, they actually ran a one-year pilot to make sure that I guess it was feasible for them and and they could see the sort of appetite for people. Um, and during that pilot, I uh basically on my Twitter account just kept tweeting about it, making sure that everyone was aware. And a couple of people that followed me um mentioned that they uh managed to apply through the pilot and got their transcripts, and and you know, I'll never forget what one of the women said. She said it was like a bundle of joy that she had her notes with her um at her bedside table, and when she was feeling like she didn't have a voice when she was feeling you know distraught about everything, she would pick them up and she would read them again because you know the judge made some amazing comments in her case, which you know showed and um how strong she had been and and what an amazing thing she had done. And you know, that is exactly what I'm doing it for. I'm doing it so that victims feel that they're empowered, that they have the information, and it's you know it's in their hands, which is why I think it's also so important that we get more than just sentencing remarks.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah, they feel validated in the process and seeing just embarking through the court system takes so much strength and power and energy. Yeah, you know, um it's wonderful to to hear that the story of the lady keeping her notes by her bedside, and yeah, I mean I got goosebumps, you know, just just yeah, it's uh it's completely powerful, and I think people really underestimate the the you know, it it helps to give a sense of not entirely closure, but being able being able to to process things, yeah, you know, and and having the facts, um, and like you say, the the validation from the judge and and and and hearing and knowing that that that this in this case this lady lady was heard.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, because I think you know the reason why I did it for me was because I really wanted to understand. I wanted to know what was said in that room after I left. I wanted to know what was said about me, I wanted to know what evidence was put forward, and I wanted to know how the perpetrator responded to that. And just having that would have allowed me to process, to understand, and potentially move on a bit faster as well, because you know, I'll forever have those questions of but you know what was actually put forward.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

It's a way of having those answers without having to be re-traumatized, you know, and that and that's the key. It's you know, you've got that, you've got the information, it's on the paper, you can look at it when you're ready in a safe environment, in a supported environment. Um, you know, it's all presented very factually.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Um and I and I I think that that also creates that extra separation that's needed to help prevent re-traumatization, which is really yeah, because at the moment the government claims that you can listen to your trial free of charge in a courtroom should you want to listen to it again. But you know, the red flags that come with that, you know, you don't want to go to a court again, you don't want to probably hear your perpetrator's voice again. And not everyone takes information in through hearing, some people want to read. So, on top of the fact that when we tested out this theory, it didn't actually seem true, nobody actually knew about it. Um, but it's just that is not the right way, uh, that's not a trauma-informed way to be able to process the information you want to process. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

And that in a way, that's exactly what we're about as justices now is is is helping helping to provide educational material to the judiciary to be better trauma-informed and and you know, just hearing hearing you know what you're saying, I think that is something that we could also look to, you know, in materials that we disseminate, you know, to judges and magistrates when they do get these kind of requests to know that actually um there are ways that they could support the victims or the survivors um to have access to that information and be aware that you know there are people out there who do want who do want the transcripts, who do want to have access to the transcripts. And for them, if it even if it is possible in that court for them to listen, um, you know, it's for for them it may it may not be the the the option of choice.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, another thing why I think it's so important that everyone should get their transcripts is that it creates more of an open justice, hence my campaign name of open justice for all. But you know, what happens between closed doors at the moment is not okay. We still know that you know barristers are not behaving, judges are sometimes not behaving, and nobody knows about it either because we're not there or because we are there, but we haven't got any proof. And if a full transcript would be easily accessible for a lot of people, the behavior behind closed doors is gonna have to change. Because you know, some of the things that my judge said, for example, they wouldn't fly if people knew about it. And you know, I'm not a one example. There is thousands of women who go through the system who say things that have happened to them, but we can only make people listen and make people aware if we've got the proof that it happened, because unfortunately, we're not believed and we're not listened to. So having those transcripts available will will really help with that as well, and that should make a better and more fair and more um inclusive justice process as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah, and and provide just a little bit more accountability for those that that that are ultimately re-traumatizing victims in the process of in the process, whilst there are so many members of the judiciary embarrassers who are you know who are trauma-informed, who who do act ethically and in integrity, there are many unfortunately who aren't. Um that we can make it a fair process for survivors, a supportive process for survivors, um, you know, it it would be it is so worthwhile.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah, and you'd also get more victims that would step forward, right? Like at the moment, the system as it is, many a point, but this being one of them, people don't want to do it. And we need victims to come forward to put perpetrators behind bars. And if you look at it in a in an awful way, we need victims for barristers to be in work, for judges to be in work, you know, it it is also a business at the end of the day, but they you know, the system needs to be better to have victims come forward.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I yeah, I I I agree with you. And what would you say that the majority of the types of cases? Is it sort of a mix of different types of cases, or is there a a theme or pattern in the types of cases of survivors that um you know that they do need access or require access to their transcripts?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

I started just around Rasso cases. Yeah. Um that's where we had the most evidence that people were looking for them, and I guess that's because a crime is committed against them and their their body. Um but the one thing that I struggle with is that Rasso doesn't always include domestic abuses and included in Rasso, whilst for me that should that it kind of sits side by side, but from a judiciary point of view, they're kind of kept separate. Um, but yeah, those are kind of the two counts the Rasso case and domestic abuse cases. Um, so the very first pilot that the government approved were just Rasso cases, and then um we did push for that to go wider, so it is now all victims. Um it'll be really interesting to see what the data is on that because I imagine it will very much skew towards you know the domestic abuse and and Rasso side of things.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yeah. And with the pilot, was it run um nationwide or was it in a particular court?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

The pilot is an interesting story. Um, the pilot was put in place just before um we had our general election. So um they announced the pilot, then it was the kind of blackout period um in all kind of media and and all of that, and then the government changed. So they announced it in um gosh, when was it? I don't even remember when they announced it, but I only heard about it six months later. So between them announcing and starting the pilot for six months, nobody knew that this pilot was happening because they they said they weren't allowed to do a press release because of the blackout period, and they never informed me. Then there was a change in government who obviously had lots of things to deal with, so it was only that um it was Claire Waxman, the London Victor Com Victims Commissioner at the time, was meeting someone and talking about it that someone said, Oh, well, the pilot's in place, like what do you what are you talking about? And and um yeah, we we learned it that it was live that way, which did mean that it wasn't advertised for six months. So once I finally found that out, I started putting it on my shows, my socials and my website, but you know, my reach is is only so far. So we did manage to get the government to put out one social post. Um, and I kind of used my network of um all of the charities and stuff that I work with to let them know um that this was happening and get their ISVAs to to tell all of the victims that were going through court. So the uptake, um, I think the end numbers was like 300 people or so um for a year, which is quite low. Um, but I think that's because it wasn't advertised. Um, but it gave them enough data and enough information to obviously put it in place, so um all all ended okay, but um yeah, it was countrywide, it was everywhere, but it was just Rasso cases at that point in time.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

We're currently I'm heading up a pilot for justices now where we're um a project, sorry, where we we've done it with the criminal courts and uh specifically Rasso cases. We placed um observers um in the criminal courts with obviously permission uh from the judge or magistrate, um and it was really um as I was mentioned previously to help um pull together educational material to help you know help um the judiciary to be better trauma informed, and we are currently rolling out the same project in the family courts. You know, so thinking that you know, and it's not from it it's it primarily it really isn't from a perspective of trying to catch people out, it's more about educational purposes, yeah. Trying to to to um really support victims ultimately and uh survivors ultimately um but with with us uh noting our observations, we could certainly incorporate you know whether the victim or the survivor excuse me was given the option, you know, if they knew A knew that they could obtain a copy of the transcript, and perhaps uh somehow if it if it's possible to get feedback if they if they applied for it, yeah, you know, and and have an option, you know, if that would be something that would be helpful to you, um, you know, yeah to charity. Definitely add that element in it would be a simple box tick box, you know. Was this option um given to the survivor or did they did they ask for it for it as well?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, so one of the things that I'm actually really interested in as well, and something that I've been pushing for, is uh one of the reasons why victim survivors want their transcripts is because they're not in court to hear everything. And that is because the majority of us are being advised not to come back. So it'll be interesting also to understand, you know, was the victim survivor there after giving evidence? And if they were, were they given a safe place to sit? So, for example, in my case, I would have had to sit on a three-seater bench next to his best mate and his sister. I wasn't gonna do that, you know. But would I have been offered a video link in another room in the court? Yeah, I might have taken that up. So that is something that I'm really interested in as well. Like, are we given the opportunity to take part and to listen and to hear after giving evidence of what is being said, as well as then, yes, at the sentencing stage, are you being told that you can have your sentencing remarks, and then are people requesting them will be really interesting. Um, because so far I have heard quite a lot of judges are not happy with the fact that we're giving these transcripts, and I think there's multiple reasons for that. One of the reasons that they are stating is that it's more work for them because they need to and they can still and they have to approve a transcript going out. So if you apply, it's not an automatic yes, the judge has to approve to it, and what they then do is they then check the transcript, or they say they check it to make sure that it's correct, and then it gets sent to you. So it's a lot of extra work for them. But the sinister in me also thinks that they don't like it because it shows exactly what they say, and we know that you know certain judges don't behave as they should, or other behaviours that are happening in the court under their watch shouldn't be as they should. So um it'll be interesting to see whether or not judges do get on board with it. Obviously, it's not everyone who's against it, that there'll be plenty who are for it, but um, yeah, if they get on board with it and if they then actively promote the fact that that's available.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, it sort of boils down to we are, you know, we are at the mercy of the judges. They hold the answers in their hands, and yeah, um, yeah, that's really um that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah, and that's also why I've had the most pushback on so the next thing that I've been asking for is the judges summing up. So that would be you know just before the verdict, um, and it would give you a bit of a breakdown of this was the evidence, this is what was said, etc., to give you a real kind of core understanding, and that would be for anyone, so not guilty or guilty verdict, because obviously with sentencing remarks, you have to have a guilty verdict for you to be able to access them. But my main reason that I've been told that we can't is that it's too much work for the judges, as well as monetary from the Government, of course.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah, thinking about the technological age that we live in and you know all of the ways that um data can be recorded and processed and pulled together, and yes, it would it would r require a a judge to sign off, as you as you've said, fine, but to simply record the summary, yeah, I mean that is something that could involve technology.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, I mean you've you've been in our courts more times than I probably have, is they are crumbling, they are not up to date, but it was really good to see that the government has put a lot of money towards um tech and modernization of the courts, so that's also within the courts and transcripts uh courts and tribunals bill that's going through the government at the moment. So I do hope that that helps. But you know, the other thing that I've been working on with the government is the use of AI. You know, how can they use these technologies to do exactly what we need them to do with a click of a finger, um, at no cost of what it's costing at the moment. And I know that they're thinking about it and and looking at it, they obviously want to make sure that it's done right, um, and there'll still be a human element needed to check and to make sure everything's correct, but you know, it would speed things up massively and would cost it would cost you know a hundred thousand of what it's costing at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

I think it would make such a huge difference and it would help with that issue of time, and and and we we you know, yes, the the the court system is overburdened, uh time is precious, um but the value, the value that it would give to survivors is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Yeah, I think that's something that the government often forgets. Like if you are so traumatized and you go through a system and you're re-traumatized again, there are consequences, whether that's you can't work or you need help, whether that's physical or mental, all of those things also cost the government money. And I would be really interested to be able to do a case study to almost see you know what does the difference make having someone you know be provided all of this information and and cared for through a system versus someone who isn't and then has to seek help afterwards in different ways. And you know, what's the difference in cost there? Because as much as I do think the government cares, they obviously have to look at the monetary value of everything, and it's almost like if you were able to present that, you know, would they listen, would they choose one way or another?

SPEAKER_01 25:28

It would certainly help strengthen the case, circling back to your earlier example of the lady who had the notes on by her nightstand. It it certainly sounded like having that helped her to move forward in her life. You know, she you know, the the tone was certainly much more positive, and there was a sense of resolution for her.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

You know, that she could move on to rebuild, to heal and rebuild and and start to feel safer in her life.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

I think so too. I mean, I wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Are there any ways that you think uh we could help and support you uh uh uh uh us here at Justices now?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Um I think you know working together and collaborating is great, right? We're all looking to kind of achieve the same thing and sharing our learning, sharing what we're seeing is just really important. And you know, you having eyes within the system, it would be really interesting to see whether there is a change of behavior, whether there is a change of just kind of how it how it works now that transcripts of sentencing will be available, and then also once stuff becomes more modernized, you know, whether they start to introduce video links and and all of that, and just see the positive impact that's having on on victims, you know. We know it's it's it sounds so little, doesn't it? But I think it'll make such a huge, huge change. I know that if if I had my sentencing remarks, I think what I got a not guilty verdict, so I won't get sentencing remarks, but if I had um any kind of transcript, the difference that it made, the fact that magistrates' courts are going to be recorded, like I'd love to know the difference that that's making how people are behaving. Um, and that would just be so interesting to observe.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah, yeah, because it would be twofold, it would be the the performance, you know, within the courts, um, you know, of the barristers, solicitors, the judges, the magistrates, and then also the the follow-up effects of the survivor who had access to those transits. So it's sort of a two a twofold, you know, of benefit really to everyone going through the through the court system. Yeah. Oh Charlotte, it's been lovely um having you on uh on the podcast and just hearing just some of the amazing and powerful work that you're doing, and um definitely looking forward to working further together and and perhaps we can we can arrange to meet and discuss that further. But um, yeah, it's been having you. Thank you. Thank you so much.