The Psychology of Beauty with Guest, Dr. Ann Beatty

Beauty and Brains. 

Have you ever thought about the psychology of beauty? Does the beauty industry think about the psychology of you? 

Enter Dr. Ann Beatty. As a senior advisor to top beauty brands she explores how companies interact with consumers in authentic and ethical ways to help you discover your beauty identity and meet your needs. 

Dr. Ann Beatty is a nationally recognized principal advisor and educator to senior (beauty) executives nationwide. Leveraging more than 30 years of business experience, her expertise is partnering with executive leaders and boards to improve individual and organizational performance through CEO succession planning, assessment, performance evaluation, team building, and developmental coaching. Dr. Beatty’s deep understanding of executive and board-level roles enables her to guide leaders in more effectively navigating the unique challenges of their positions.

Her beauty industry clients include Estee Lauder and Its subsidiaries and Bloomingdales, to name a few. She implemented their vision of a collaborative culture, managed the company’s strategic direction and financial welfare, and oversaw CEO-level initiatives, including CEO succession planning, assessment and performance evaluation, team-building, and coaching.

Dr. Beatty earned her Doctor of Philosophy degree in Psychology from St. Louis University. Her area of research interest is the correlation of personality attributes to effective leadership style and management practices. She is a member of the American Psychological Association, APA — Division 13 Consulting, American Psychological Society, American Management Association, Society for Personality Assessment, Society of Psychologists in Management, and American Society for Training and Development.

https://beattyleadership.com/

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to Life Gloss, a beauty podcast for sassy and seasoned women who have lived life and have a drawer full of lip gloss to prove it.

Susan Gerdeman: 0:10

And then Hillary and I met, um, soon after I was out of college. So we got a lot of history here. We've all known each other since we were children. Yeah.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 0:22

It's yesterday, right?

Susan Gerdeman: 0:24

Yesterday.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 0:26

It's so nice to hear you say that. And because we, Susan and I are reiterating often how, how long this love affair has gone on between us. And we've seen each other through we've moved, we've had relationships with business and personally, and we've gone through so much together. It feels like we're sisters. And I don't remember the day we met. I don't remember not knowing Susan and it's lovely when someone else can look at our bios and look at our lives and say, wow, there are so many common threads, but you've taken such different paths. And here we are.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:04

It's beautiful. And I love what you're doing with this podcast series. I listened to several of them and what is so interesting and wonderful about them is they're all unique one from the other and have, you know, very specific, um, information, style, but mainly it's all focused around I think what makes people, what makes women beautiful, both inside and out. And I love that. I mean, it's just the, it's the complete picture of when I think of beauty, I always think of, you know, beauty outside, beauty inside. Right,

Susan Gerdeman: 1:49

right. Well, I'm glad. I'm really glad that comes across because that's something that Hillary and I wanted to focus on in this podcast was really, you know, the, the 40 plus woman, the, you know, really, I mean, you know, 50 plus woman, 70, 80 plus, I mean, we have everybody from my mom, who's, you know, 87 at the end of this year down, you know, listening to us. So it's, Yeah, it's really nice that, um, you pick up on that message that we're not just, um, talking about one thing, but we're talking about the internal, the external. And that's why this episode is going to be so important to us because it'll be almost a year, actually, next What is it, two weeks, Hill? It's a year. We're coming

Hillary Clark-Mina: 2:32

up on our anniversary. You're going to be our anniversary episode. Oh my god.

Susan Gerdeman: 2:37

Which is so apropos, because we're really talking. The whole year has been, if anybody really listens closely, like you have, not just the Outer, but inner. We always try to balance the two, you know?

Hillary Clark-Mina: 2:53

And it's been so important to us to contribute in a meaningful way to beauty. Beauty has become something and every generation and every five to 10 years, we say this beauty has become so much bigger. It's so different. We saw it with the internet and magazines are going away. And what will we do? And. You know, self service stores, you've seen all of the iterations and, but now even with the everyday influencer and so many women that were in our category are now being served, we'll call it that, are being served, you know, silverwashing is a really big thing. So we, we didn't want to be another clamoring voice. We wanted to really be an anchor where people could say, You know, maybe I have something specific. I want to know about. Let me go through their menu and I can pinpoint it and pull it out. Maybe I just want to feel good or I just want to feel like I'm part of a club and I want to feel like people are talking to me. And that's why Keeping the finger on the pulse of what's going on behind the scenes. The beauty companies are not our enemies, they are definitely our friends, but they are businesses. So to keep women and educate women and contribute meaningfully is really what our goal and our mission is.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 4:18

Well, Hillary, you just touched on a key word, educate. I was just talking to members of our team, you know, one of, um, and Susan knows this, that probably one of my longest and, um, most favorite clients is Estee Lauder. And all the brands in Estee Lauder, I, I looked at them all last night, and I had worked with Every brand with an Estee Lauder except for five. And so I feel like I just know them inside and out, but we were talking about, um, Clinique. And I'm saying that I remember as a young girl, I think in high school, probably being, you know, kind of drug through the department store with my mother. And I wanted, I wanted some makeup. I didn't know what it was, just something. Because I felt like I was growing up. I was 16. I just got my driver's license. And I thought, you know, that's something I need. And she took me to the Clinique counter. And I will never forget all of those women in those white coats. And, you know, they were educators as much as anything else. And for a long time. A lot of the brands had that educational component and some of the, I think, best brands and most prestigious brands have that. But then when you look at TikTok, sometimes you don't know what's what, you don't know the efficacy, you don't know the claims, you don't know really anything. And so I really One of the questions that you asked was, what do I hope to see in the future is continued transparency and continued education in this field. I think that that's going to be a huge differentiator.

Susan Gerdeman: 6:13

Okay. All right. Well, we're gonna, we're gonna. I want you to remember that because we're going to hit report soon and and we're going to get into this. So would you like to be called Dr. Anne? I mean, that's what I call you, but would you like to be called Dr. Beatty? Dr. Anne Beatty? Just Anne. Dr. Anne is great. Dr. Anne is great. I thought, um, I'm going to do a little intro for you and we're just going to start and with each question we spend about, you know, 5 to 10 minutes and we'll, you know, we ad lib, I think, you know, we like to have fun. We like to laugh. Um, I will leave it to you to mention anyone you want to, you don't have to mention anyone, uh, as far as names go, obviously confidentiality, etc. But if you want to say, you know, you've worked with the lotter group, etc, you know. I don't think, you know, I don't see that a problem, but that's up to you. I leave that up to you. Um, but we, as you can see in the questions, we won't get, we're not going to get into the nitty nitty nitty gritty. Right. We're going to keep it flowing with more about how women think about beauty and, and the industry, the psychology of beauty, and that's what it is. So, okay, are we

Dr. Ann Beatty: 7:23

ready? Do you have any questions for us before we start? No, I'm just so glad to meet both of you, and I'm so glad to know about this, this series. I just think it's such a sweet, Service. Oh, people. I think sometimes people, you know, when we look at TikTok, we're all on Facebook, we're on social media. I think sometimes that I don't want to say older women, but more mature women, professional women sometimes feel a little left in the dust. And so to, you know, have a series that talks about serious things relative to beauty and cosmetics is wonderful.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 8:05

Wonderful. I love it. Thank you. We do and we and I feel like We're starting to be pandered to a little bit because we do have the buying power, but it's like they, they want us to open our wallets, but they don't always want to hear from us. So I am on a bit of a mission on Tik TOK to turn some of that around. So maybe you'll see it there. All right, we are, we are rolling. So,

Susan Gerdeman: 8:32

okay. All right. Terrific. Well, they say that brains and beauty don't always go together. And on today's episode of the psychology of beauty, we're going to dispel that myth. With over 30 years experience as a top psychologist, Dr. Anne Beatty is a nationally recognized principal advisor and educator to senior executives throughout the United States. She's the founder and CEO at Beatty, a leadership consulting firm based in St. Louis, Missouri. She's got clients all the way from New York to Dallas. Dr. Beatty has helped family owned as well as Fortune 500 businesses with CEO led initiatives, including CEO succession planning, assessment, performance evaluation, team building, and coaching. She has some of the top cosmetic CEOs in the world on speed dial. We are so excited to have her on LifeGloss today as we discuss The psychology of beauty. Welcome, Dr. Anne.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 9:42

Well, thank you so much, Susan. Thank you, Hillary It is a pleasure for me to be here. And I, quite honestly, I'm very honored to be speaking with both of you because As I have listened to some of your episodes, I am so impressed at this initiative, which I find so refreshing and so stimulating. So thank you for what you do in contributing this wonderful Podcast

Hillary Clark-Mina: 10:10

Well, my goodness, Susan, did you

Susan Gerdeman: 10:12

hear that? It's funny, Hill, because we were talking just a few minutes before we hit record, and we were saying that it's almost a year anniversary of LifeGloss, since you and I started talking about even doing a podcast for women over 40. And the fact that we were able to get Dr. Anne to come on, um, to celebrate the year is so perfect because we've always not just talked about tips and trends and outer beauty and ways to make you look younger and blah, blah, blah. We've always tried to tie in the psychology behind it, the beauty within the, how do you feel about yourself? So. That message has rung true through almost four seasons. I think we're in our fourth season now. Um, almost 40 episodes in after a year. So how perfect to have Dr. Anne here today.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 11:10

It's, it, I'm pinching myself. I'm pinching myself. I've, I've been familiar with her work for so many years and she has really helped shape a number of industries and helped them evolve. Navigate and find their way and keep the horizon and she's kept a lot of industries focused on the, I would say the right things and on the right path. So I just, this is a dream come true. So Susan. Thank you, Dr. Anne. It is, it's incredible. And What a way to kick off our anniversary.

Susan Gerdeman: 11:49

That's right. So let's get into a doctor and we're going to, we're going to switch the roles here and we're going to try to pick your brain. Um, we are not doctors. We are doctors of beauty. Let's put it that way, but we have a few questions to ask you, especially for our listeners who don't really understand or don't even maybe know that You know, there are people, um, much like yourself, professionals, um, who actually help drive the cosmetic business. So, you know, I think we talked in the intro here about all the companies you've worked with, et cetera, and I'm going to let you talk in a minute about that. But, you know, how and why did you branch out into the world of cosmetic companies through psychology?

Dr. Ann Beatty: 12:37

I'm, I just love that question, Susan, and I'm so happy to respond to that because it was really, um, almost my serendipity, but, uh, when I was a much younger consultant, one of the first assignments that I had was, um, oddly enough, was to help my current boss at that time with an engagement with Leonard Lauder, of all people. Um, And what, um, Leonard was looking for at the time was not anything really connected with the company. It was the family. And one of the things that we do is we do a lot of work with family and family owned businesses. We help them find their mission statement, their vision statement, their purpose statement, uh, rules of engagement. And so I had the honor really of. working with Leonard and William and Jane and Aaron, um, and just, and also Ronald. So it was really through that connection that I got to know Leonard Lauder. And, um, shortly after that engagement, which was just, Wonderful. Their wonderful, wonderful family and learning about their history in terms of their entrepreneurial drive and particularly Estee Lauder. Um, Leonard called me one day and he said, I would like for you to come and talk to you about a new acquisition that we have just made. And as it turns out, it was Bobby Brown. And so the, the, the assignment was to, um, meet Bobby Brown and really kind of help her quotes, understand more of the corporate world as opposed to, um, just beauty and the production of beauty and the development of beauty. And that's really the way I started is, was just through that type of connection. And people will always say, you know, well, My goodness, did you ever dream of doing this? And I, not in a hundred years. And I think with most people, that's exactly how their life evolves. It's one thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another. But I was very happy to, um, make that acquaintance. And as I've, you know, grown in my career, um, I've done so much work with not only Estee Lauder and all of the brands within, but also within the Prestige business, uh, in retail as well. So a lot of work with Bloomingdale's, um, and, you know, Neiman Marcus, Sachs, and so. Also, who serves the retail community and the cosmetic community. So it's all been fitting together for me, along with all the other clients that I have, but it's really been a treat because one of the things that I always say about working in beauty and working in particularly cosmetics. You can see it everywhere you look. And so the more you know, it just heightens your awareness when you're talking to people or when they're talking to you, um, you know, about the really wonderful contributions that this industry has made. I think to, um, the feeling of confidence, empowerment, um, to many, many women. And certainly I think of late many, many men.

Susan Gerdeman: 16:24

100 percent 100 percent

Hillary Clark-Mina: 16:27

very forward thinking of lotter to help ease Bobby's transition in from more of a pro artist, you know, run by the seat of your pants, entrepreneur, her evolution as an indie artist is one that we've written books and books and books about. And it's such an interesting dynamic to be one of the very first to make that move from artist to brand owner. And how very forward thinking of Leonard to bring someone in to help her understand that transition. I think people don't appreciate how jarring that can be.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 17:05

Absolutely. And then what that did is that led to them thinking about that for their other executives. So over the last 20, 25 years, All kinds of leader development, leader coaching, leader 360 feedback has now become institutionalized at the higher levels within Estee Water. And I would have to say, I think, has been instrumental in preparing for this. Their executives to not only do what they do best relative to their functional gift, their functional expertise, but also how do you bring that to life in a corporate setting? So there's really two things that work there, and it's just, it's great. Just great, you know, to meet some of these very talented individuals, very creative, very innovative, highly emotional, highly passionate about what they do, but also help them understand some of the fundamentals of business and, um, The fundamentals of leadership, the importance of leadership and interpersonal relationships so that, um, you know, they can move teams, large teams, small teams, um, in the ways that are most productive for the brands.

Susan Gerdeman: 18:27

Yeah, because it's interesting, you know, most people that get into the cosmetic industry or beauty industry, and let's just say, let's take makeup artists, for example.

Audio Only - All Participants: 18:36

Yeah.

Susan Gerdeman: 18:36

Most people assume that they are simply a creative brain, and many, many are we've seen companies fail. We've seen small brands fail. We've seen small brands grow, and it's interesting that a lot of people don't think that creative people can also be very entrepreneurial. Very business driven. You can have sort of both of those sides. So I agree with Hillary that it's very forward thinking for the lotters to understand. The need to bring someone in to marry both right brain and left brain. Yes,

Dr. Ann Beatty: 19:12

it truly is. And I love, I love the notion that you just spoke about in terms of, um, there's a lot of stereotyping that goes on with creative people with innovative people, particularly those that are just uber artistic. And so we would be short sighted. for any company, any organization, not to, I think, help them develop, you know, I always say, add to their toolbox of leadership skills, you know, to help them, you know, always be better, do better, and bring people along. Because in these big companies, you always have to have Um, you know, it's very important to have talent developing below you so that you know, as there is attrition, you always have somebody ready. But, um, it is. It's very, very interesting. One of the things that, um, Fabrizio Freyda said often when he came to Estee Lauder as their new CEO, he talked about, um, many of these creative individuals as heroes. And heroes of the company. And so how do we, you know, how do we take these heroes and work with them and develop them in a way that their gifts are not just so specific, but more generalized across all of us. Different brands and the whole company for that matter. And so now, they talk instead about people being heroes, they now talk about hero products. And those are the ones that are, you know, selling hot trends, selling the most, um, at the moment. But it was really interesting how he moved from the reference from a person to now to products.

Susan Gerdeman: 21:02

Yeah. And I don't, I personally, I know Hillary agrees with me because we just talked about this the other day. I don't think you can have a hero product without a hero person. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 21:14

Oh my goodness. I am, I am completely enraptured. I would like, I, I would like nothing more than to just curl up on the chair behind you and talk with you all day long. It's. It is so, I am so fascinated. I think our audience, our listeners are going to be so fascinated too. And, you know, both Susan and I have been in education. Our passion is education to this day. I still work independently with brands as an educator and. It has been a standard from the moment my big toe went into the beauty pool in the mid 90s That people that were trained and people that were educated and came from the estee lauder organization They were pristine In the way that they were, that they would function within the organization. Everyone knew what to do. They had the bravery to be creative, but they also knew specifically what their jobs were in the organization was always known to be so tight. And if you were an educator within Estee Lauder. You were being poached on the regular. And I think a lot of that has to do with you, Ann. So kudos all the

Dr. Ann Beatty: 22:28

way around. Well, I don't know that it has to do with me specifically, but one of the things that, um, I think is so interesting about the, certainly about Estee Lauder and perhaps other companies as well is, um, you know, this. And I think there's a whole notion of, um, can this talent be developed? Do, are people just naturally creative or are they not? Or are there, is, are there things there that can be developed through, um, actually doing the work, watching others, being taught, being mentored? And I certainly think, yes, there are those. You know, creative heroes, but then there, there are a lot of things that can be passed on to others, which I think is very, very, um, important across the industry. One of the, I think, genius things that Estee Lauder has done too, is that they have purposely kept each of their brands individually, distinct, specific. And unique when I tell people that, um, you know, by working with, whether it's Clinique or Mac or Tom Ford, whomever it is, very few people realize that they are in a portfolio of companies all under the umbrella of Estee Lauder. And so when you, speaking of creative genius and being strategic to think of being able to see the value of that, because what that does is that. I think lets people know that we understand how important it is to speak differentially and individually to our audience. You know, while some people resonate to the Estee Lauder brand, others like Clinique, or they like MAC, or they like Bobby Brown and feel that it's For them and feel that the brand speaks to them. And that's the other thing that's interesting as I've gotten into this is understanding this whole notion of narrative and voice that these different brands, um, really must have in order to communicate, um, the emotional message intended for their respective customer. And they spend a lot of time in terms of. What they call things, how they describe things, how they name things so that it has that voice so that it can speak to a potential consumer.

Susan Gerdeman: 25:09

Oh, 100%. I mean, you, you look through the years and it, I remember back in the day, it was always, They would say, and I don't know if they still say this or not, but you start at Clinique and then you graduate up, you know, through the brands until you get to Lauder. You know, so you go through Clinique, you go through, you know, maybe Bobby Brown or Origins or, you know, and then you move into Lauder. And so it's, it's, it's interesting to see that, um, you know, there is, whether people know it or not, there is so much psychology, Behind the building of their folio, and we're just specifically talking about Lauder you know, there's obviously L'Oreal and other big conglomerates, Garnier etc. But the psychology of how they really put and invest so much time and money into how people think and the power of purchase. The psychology of purchase, right? Absolutely.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 26:12

Well, and also when you think of some of the brands within this portfolio, they're also very reflective of societal trends and societal values and norms. I remember when, um, Mac first came to fruition, you know, when it hit the market and it was very much of an anti establishment type of activist brand. I'm different. I'm me. I'm free to be me. Look at me. I'm okay. And I thought that was so ingenious because, you know, yes, there's a place in the world for the Estee Lauders and the Cliniques and the Bobbi Browns, but there's also a place in the world for the Macs of the world. And the same thing within their hair care brands between, of course, Aveda spoke to a certain Clientele as did Bumble and Bumble, but I like that notion of thinking about, um, not just exactly, uh, skin and hair, but thought process, and most of all, Susan, identity, and how, you know, how do I create a product that other people can identify with? And consume and you and enjoy

Susan Gerdeman: 27:29

and that's where the loyalty comes along. You know, when you think of if you name a company, like if we played a game right now and I named a company, you could name a hero product in there. If I named a product. You could match the company to it. And I think that's for most women, you know, if I, if I said, you know, um, three step, everybody would know that's Clinique. If I said Finicils, everyone would know that's Lancôme mascara. I mean, we could go on and play the game for hours, but so it's, it's just, it's amazing how, you know, These companies were able to really tap into that psychology and really create products around the psychology of beauty.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 28:14

I agree. It's ingenious. And the other thing that I like about where the industry is going is I think that they're becoming more and more sensitive. To that in terms of, um, really helping women and men in some occasions really understand who they are and, you know, and their place in the world. I think it's, um, it's really serving, um, almost kind of a societal need right now, particularly post COVID where so many people seem to be lost and people are having trouble, you know, deciding. Do I work in the office? Do I not? If I do work in the office, if I do go outside of my home, what do I wear? I don't know the norm anymore. I've lost the norm. And I think the same is true with cosmetics and beauty. The norm is now being rediscovered. And Chris, obviously, Hillary, you know this, the thing that's driving that is social media. And all the social influencers, TikTok for example, you know, big influencer. It's very very, I think it's, um, I think it's fascinating what's happening right now.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 29:33

It is fascinating, Dr. Ann, and I'd love, I'd love to dive in a little bit to get your opinion on two things. You mentioned talking about fostering, Creativity within the organizations and teaching and passing that on. And, you know, inspiring the group to rise as others grow. And in First, the first part of the question I would say is so many of the brand founders that were individual artists, there was a lot of glory in that sometimes a lot of narcissism in that. How did you work with teaching someone to share? Obviously everybody is a very multifaceted person. Many creatives are also very giving in it, very empathic. So they're very forthcoming with those things. It's not all, but having taught people. How to foster creativity without feeling threatened within a group fascinates me how that might translate to Social media where now everyone has made their own identity on a tiktok and instagram. We are all living in these, you know self built Narcissistic bubbles where we can delete comments that we don't like we can edit how people see us so we So many people don't have to really walk the walk and talk the talk every single day and they're less responsible perhaps with what they put out in the world. And to the audience that can be so, so hard to receive because it makes things more confusing for them. It feels like a big hairball and I'm not sure how we're going to entangle it. And then for those of us, as we're getting older, I'd love maybe a little later on to talk about the psychology of the older consumer, the way we're being spoken to. There are a few different narratives and I would love your thoughts around that as well. But as I said, I would just love to be on your couch. I have so many things.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 31:39

Well, it is the question you bring up about the older consumer, I think is extraordinarily intriguing because, I mean, you can't pick up. Any book, any periodical, any newspaper, or watch any podcast, or listen to any podcast, that one of the primary trends that's running through our society right now is this phenomenon of older women feeling unseen. I can't tell you how many articles I've seen, how many books I've seen, where they speak about that, that, you know, after I've gotten to this age, I just I just don't feel seen anymore. I mean, it's, it's really heartbreaking when you think about it. And so I think for, um, this industry to be able to pick up on that and to help these women, in particular, with strategies for thinking about the importance of being seen by others, is it important or is it not? Or is it really more important how I see myself? One of the things I do a lot of executive coaching Hillary and one of the things that I always say always always I can really tell whether an executive has really reached what I would call Executive maturity if they can begin to what I call Self defined as opposed to be other defined. So, rather than coming up, coming up, coming up, and being worried, worried, worried about what my boss thinks, what my peers think, what my colleagues think, can I ever get to a spot where I really just care what others think? Not in a selfish way, but that I understand and care about what I think about me, and I know who I am, and I have this feeling of self efficacy is so, so important, and I feel I have agency, because I think once you develop that on the inside, Then I don't think that there would be such this, um, feeling, this sad feeling of not being seen.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 34:00

You know, Dr. Anne, I'm going to pause for a moment and ask our audience to maybe bookmark right here. Maybe go back a little bit. I'm going to create a soundbite for specifically what you just said, because I think it's really important that we all spend some time reflecting and asking ourselves those questions. If you take nothing else from our time together, that right there is So I have little shivers up my spine. I have absolute goosebumps. It is a treasure that you're sharing with us. And please, please to all of our life glossers, take a little moment, go back, listen to this again, if you're. Catching this anywhere. And that's all you listen to. That's all you share with your friends. I'm going to make it easy. We're going to soundbite it because it's so important. And I wonder sometimes too, for some of the brands that I see that are giving that message and are saying, you're not seen, we have a solution. I'm like, Do we really not feel seen? Are they just telling us we aren't being seen so they can then solve the problem for us? Or are we sometimes not being seen? Or is it a combination of both? Which I think it's most likely a combination of both. But the brands that declare that we're not seen and we need to be seen and then come in fast and hard with a product to make a scene or a fix or a life solution, but they don't actually spend time curating your. soul and your perception of self. I feel like that's a really cheap shot and it cheapens our industry because we're better than

Dr. Ann Beatty: 35:41

that.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 35:41

Exactly. I agree.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 35:44

And I, do you see, um, I see an evolving trend where more and more Companies are doing that. More and more brands are actually urging people to take that first step that you just spoke about. And I think that, um, that is so good because one of the things that I know that customers are asking for now, just because of all the talk that I have, um, with all of the people with whom, um, I'm working is this whole notion of. Individualization, you know, people want, um, they want treatment for their skin. They don't want a treatment that somebody else has made and just said, try it. They don't want that. They want to know that this is specific for their skin. Same thing, by the way, in the hair industry, they want treatment specific for their, not only hair type, but for their scalp. And so this whole. really quest and desire from customers now to have that type of focus, but it also causes them to be knowing themselves in a way that perhaps they hadn't thought about before.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 37:04

Fascinating. And AI and technology is tiptoeing into being able to give us that bespoke experience for skin, hair, and color. So I think 10 to 15 years from now, we might think it was barbaric that everyone was picking up the same cream and using the same thing across the masses. But I think you're right. I

Dr. Ann Beatty: 37:29

think you're absolutely right. And I think it may be sooner than that. I think it's really I think it's on the horizon. Um, and the other thing that I think, and this, it's interesting how we've become such a small world. Thanks. Thanks. For the internet for sure, but I think people are developing interest just like people are want to travel to other countries. They want to see the, you know, the topography, the culture of the food, all of those things. I think that there is a willingness today to experiment with beauty from other cultures. And I think people have an openness to thinking about that and want to try it. So I, I like that as well. I think that really kind of, uh, represents our feel for the goodness of diversity. Yeah.

Susan Gerdeman: 38:24

I was going to say, it seems that, you know, um, the, the companies that we're seeing now really have a two fold that they've got to take on when we're talking about the psychology of beauty and it's not just the maturing customer.

Audio Only - All Participants: 38:38

Yeah.

Susan Gerdeman: 38:38

But it's also the maturing diverse customer, you know, different genders, different, uh, nationalities, um, different skin tones, et cetera. So it's a two fold process that they're really, I think, really taking on. Is it, is it perfect yet? No. So that, that's my next question to you really is, do you think personally and professionally, both, you can answer both, um, Is the cosmetic industry doing a good job for our mature and or diverse customer base? Are they doing a good job?

Dr. Ann Beatty: 39:18

Here's what I think, Susan. I think that there is such a corporate interest. across every organization, every company in sustainability, that that now is driving exactly, um, this notion of making sure that whatever products you have, if you're in the beauty industry, certainly the efficacy of those. But also, are you sharing the knowledge? Are you making sure that your intended customer knows exactly what it is, what it's for, you know, how to apply it, how it works, what are the benefits? What are some of the downsides? I think that that is, I just feel that that's coming faster and faster. But, you know, cosmetic companies a few years ago did a better job because they all had educators. And you all know about that. You've been educators. And it was only, I think, when You know, we're starting to look at our budget and think, well, what could we maybe do with that? I think some brands thought, well, maybe we don't need those educators. But yet, I think that they're just absolutely essential. I just can't imagine, you know, buying a product and not knowing how to use it or what it's going to do for me.

Susan Gerdeman: 40:48

Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think many companies, you can see this, you know, uh, first of all, you know, should every company be for everybody, you know, we're hearing now, you know, Oh, you've got to, you know, you have to have diversity. You have to have a complete shade range. You have to be mature. You have to be, I hate to break it to people, but I think when you Say that you can meet the needs of everybody. You meet the needs of no one. And I know that's a controversial thing to say, but that's why there are specific brands for specific people. And I think that we get lost in this. Oh, we all need to be welcome. We all need to, you know, be a part of that particular brand in a perfect world. Yes. But I think that they end up doing a disservice or just slapping something out, um, that doesn't work. And we've seen so many mistakes. Hillary and I talk about this a lot in products that have launched recently that they claim to be for everyone and they come out with something and they're not. So I think companies really need to do some, you know, some, some psychology on themselves and say, Who are we and who is our customer and how do we meet their needs? Um, I, I think that's where we've gone a little crazy and thinking that we just, you know, hurry, scramble, scramble. We, we need to be a part of everybody's world, but I think it, it works like that and the lack of education has really hurt brands.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 42:20

I agree. And you know, it's interesting when you think of, you talked about the open counter concept, when I think about the rise of Sephora and Ulta, one of the things that I think they meet the need that the traditional department stores really left undone, so to speak, which is having someone on the floor to tell what this product is, what is it does, what does it do, you know, What are the downsides? Can you suggest something else for me, if not this product? Because certainly, you know, you go to Sephora, you go to Ult, not only will they talk to you about it, you can actually look at it, try it, touch it, feel it, in a, you know, in a multi, um, I think, diverse environment, which is very, very healthy. And so I think in some ways they're fulfilling some of that role of helping educate, um, consumers, intended consumers.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 43:24

They are. And the fact that education has come up over and over again, surprises and delights me. I remember being a beauty director in Northern California with Nordstrom. So we would attend all of the classes and we'd go to all the trainings as part of the way that I became so, um, So exposed to Estee Lauder's brand of type and style of training that was consistent and thorough across their brands. And of course I was, you know, had the good fortune of being trained and educated by all the top brands in that capacity, but Nordstrom eliminated the beauty director position. I remember the day we all were laid off and moved around in the country, in the company and given options to do other things. And their bottom line, unfortunately, because I do love Nordstrom, of course, they're near and dear to my heart. They felt the impact of losing that educator. They have brought it back several times, but the Susan knows the core of the beauty editor program or the beauty. Sorry. I. I went to become a beauty editor with Sephora after that, but the beauty advisor role and the beauty director role was so strong. We were nurturing. We were teaching. We were required to be on the floor at least 10 percent of the time. We were required to keep our own book of business so that we were Truly walking the walk, talking the talk, and I feel so strongly about education. And even if it's working independently with a contractor that understands the DNA of a brand, because that educator is interfacing with the people that they're teaching seasonally, not only for the new product education, but new launches seasonally, they're getting so much feedback. Feedback that they can then take back to marketing and product development of what's not only what you're seeing in the numbers as to how something's selling, but how is it coming off? What is the impression? What is the emotion? What do people say when they come to buy their third or fourth? What do they say when they return it? What do they, what is the overall tone? And it creates a loyalty and a love because your educator becomes almost like the den mother for the brand. Knows this like her, her ride with Chanel. I still to this day will go around the country. And when I people know that, that Susan and I are doing this podcast together, they're like, oh, oh, Susan. I love Susan. I met Susan so many years ago and they, they sing her praises for. All for good reason she's phenomenal and truly made people feel like chanel was pristine It was elevated, but it was also accessible and that is something that Was not in chanel before And that culture of kindness while still being elevated and being elite That's really all that resonated and as we sprinkled susan through the country You saw a little bit of cool Combined with that excellence, the prestige and kindness. So educators can really plant the seeds and change things for a brand. Absolutely. Do you

Susan Gerdeman: 46:37

see, what are companies up to these days with education, Dr. Ann? Are, are there still educators out there? Are they investing in the education and training departments? Or are you seeing that go the wayside of, Oh, check out this video when you're hired, or You know, are they doing product launches through Zooms, or How's it being done now?

Dr. Ann Beatty: 47:00

It's being, and I think that there is a resurgence of emphasis and funding to those individuals. However, I think most prestige brands have those, certainly within Estee Lauder, but do they have enough of them? So they're, you know, every brand can have an educator, vice president of education, but how many people do they have in the field? That's really the question.

Audio Only - All Participants: 47:29

Yeah.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 47:29

Because, That's where they need to be, whether it's hair care, you know, how many people are visiting salons? Is it once a year? Is it once a quarter? When is that? And same thing, um, with all of the, you know, retail, whether they're kiosks or stores, whatever they are, pop ups, you know, Are they getting out and about and really talking, you know, person to person to the consumer. So I think the intention is there. They know the importance of it. And so it's happening, but, um, you know, to what degree, of course, then they're trying very, very hard. I do know that to, you know, make sure that we can get as much education in the field as possible.

Audio Only - All Participants: 48:13

That's great. It's

Dr. Ann Beatty: 48:14

important to touch people and it makes a difference. Well, that was the whole, that was the whole genesis of Estee Lauder. You remember when she developed her cream in the trunk of her car and then would go to the salons and she would sit with women who were captured under the hairdryer and rub cream on their skin? I mean, that was the genesis of the counter beauty advisor. And I wish they still had a lot of those.

Susan Gerdeman: 48:41

Yeah, you know, you bring up, that just reminded me of something, you know, it's, as we're talking about this whole psychology of beauty in the mind, right, and what's presented and how we process and what not. It's the human touch.

Audio Only - All Participants: 48:56

Yes.

Susan Gerdeman: 48:57

Right. Can you talk about that and the power of the human touch in the beauty industry and its importance? Yes.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 49:05

Well, as you know, the human touch is absolutely, it's a basic, basic need of every human being. And when you, when there is the lack of that, whether it's the infants, our, People who are alone, people who, uh, have no one. There is even a, a term coined, um, about skin hunger. That when you're alone and no one touches you, that you have this phenomenon that you want people to touch you, to caress you, to feel your hands, to feel your skin. And that's I think so important for the beauty industry to understand that basic need that people have is to be touched. And so, you know, however we can do that, whether um, there are people in our environment with us or whether there's all kinds of other ways that you can do that, you know, just like anytime you buy products these days, beauty products, you always get samples. Thank you. Um, so that you can try them. But when you think about where we're going relative to technology, face scanning, all of those things, we're still this far away. It's different. It's so different. It seems like it's a, you know, very progressive and it'll be just wonderful. But will it? I don't know.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 50:39

I'm with you. I, I'm with you. I'm, I like to get my hands on people that, on my clients and my people that I love and that exchange is so important. I think COVID,

Susan Gerdeman: 50:53

you know, and the pandemic in general really did such damage to us all psychologically. And that's probably a whole other episode. Um, but I know in the beauty industry, that touch was gone. Even, even, even spraying fragrance on someone's hand, or even just, you know, um, touching up a little bit of their, you know, blush or, you know, whatever, or shaking their hand when you bring the package around, you know, the counter to say thank you. And after someone's purchased, um, I used to always say when I was in education, sometimes You will be the only touch or the only kindness that that person might see or feel today. Don't forget the power of this industry. Our job is to make people feel good about themselves. The sale will come, but we always used to joke, You know, instead of chairs at the counters, we would install a psychologist or a psychiatrist couch. You know,

Hillary Clark-Mina: 51:58

it's true. You know, Susan, what you said is so true. I recently got back from Canada. I was there doing a training and I couldn't help, but notice that there was a significant portion of the room that has trained with me a few times, and they, you know, embraced me and hugged me, and Hillary, hello, how are you? And there were some people that have seen me three and four times, and they're like hugging me with their eyes, but afraid to touch, touch me, and I could tell that they were, they gave me, you know, the, the subtle, you know, The nonverbal communication that like, I love you, but I'm afraid to touch you still and people. There's still a lot of fear out there. People are a little afraid of touch, which is makes perfect sense. Everyone's wired differently, but you can see some people are there. So hungry for it. Other people are hungry for it, but they're still afraid of it. And it just breaks my heart to see.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 52:53

Well, you know, this industry is such a, um, multi sensual business. That's one of the things that makes it so dramatic and so emotional and so explosive. It's all of that sensuousness. Um, I'm and Susan, I think you and I've talked about this before, you know, in uh, former days, pre COVID, you would go to Bloomingdale's on the first floor where all the cosmetics were, and it was like, People could, I mean, the energy was unbelievable. There was, you know, people trying on makeup, people spraying fragrance, people talking to other people. Well, what do you think? How does this look? And other people saying, well, how does it make you feel? I mean, it was just such a wonderful, wonderful experience, which I think really is a testament to exactly what we've been doing. Talking about that. It is important as much as we can to always reach out and we can do that through this industry in a way that people want us to and certainly is very acceptable. But then, you know, we do have that, that kind of remnant from COVID that makes some people still, I don't know.

Susan Gerdeman: 54:17

And then they went ahead and did something really stupid. Um, in my opinion, to put it very bluntly, so many of the retailers, and this was pre COVID, went and put the cosmetic departments in the basement. They took them, you know who I'm talking about. They took them off the first floor and stuck them in the basement. And I'll never forget saying to a CEO of a company I was with at the time. I said, in passing, I said, well, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. And, you know, I mean, right. It just went against everything like we stood for, you know. Absolutely. Have they changed? Are they, are they, I haven't noticed. Is anybody going, is anybody back? I feel like Saks in New York City, I was just there recently, um, they're upstairs. Right, so is, same

Dr. Ann Beatty: 55:17

thing in Nordstrom, it's upstairs.

Susan Gerdeman: 55:21

Yeah.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 55:21

What

Susan Gerdeman: 55:23

are they thinking, Dr. Ann? Are they not calling you and saying, No, no, no, no, no. You need to be right on the first floor. The ambassadors of the store was always cosmetics. We welcome you. It's beauty. It feels good. Come on in. Now they're going up on the second floor. Take an elevator up to get a lip gloss. Go downstairs. It makes me crazy. I

Dr. Ann Beatty: 55:47

think, I think that there is a financial reason for that, Susan. I think that the vendor who is willing to pay for the space, you

Audio Only - All Participants: 55:57

know,

Dr. Ann Beatty: 55:57

that goes to the highest bidder, but it makes no sense. And it's also seems short term to me.

Susan Gerdeman: 56:04

In your words, and as my husband always says, follow the dollars, you know, there's a reason why you know him, but there's, there's a reason why these decisions are made. And it always comes back to the almighty dollar. But sometimes I think in our industry, we shoot ourselves in the foot with stuff like that. So absolutely.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 56:25

Yeah, just the charm of popping in for a lipstick and smelling a scent on your way out. You could literally be walking back from lunch. You could have your taxi could still be rolling and you could run in, grab your thing and meet it at the light. By the time it got there in New York City traffic, it was easy to run in and get a replenish if you needed to say hi to your counter friends and get a sample of what was new. And it was. Joyful to walk into the first floor and see beauty. It's,

Audio Only - All Participants: 56:54

it

Hillary Clark-Mina: 56:55

feels, walking into the shoe department, and I love my shoes, don't get me wrong, but walking into the shoe department is so somber in comparison.

Susan Gerdeman: 57:05

Yeah, me too. And, you know, we we've talked a lot about the brick and mortar because I think we're all of the age where we, you know, brick and mortar is was king, but really quickly before before I know Hillary has has a personal question for you. Our next question. But, um, you know, the psychology behind purchasing online. I was part of that. I remember being part of the teams where product actually went on the internet for sale. I remember all this and everyone had a psychological opinion about that. No one's going to buy fragrance online. No one's going to buy makeup online. You know, why should we even do this? This is crazy. Hillary has a huge history in this, uh, with Sephora and she helped facilitate all that too. So what's your take on that doctor? And do you feel now it's all kind of sorted itself out? And are people simply You know, replenishing online and still going into the brick and mortars. Or are you just seeing because of Amazon, I can have it here and I can have it sent back the same day. How is

Dr. Ann Beatty: 58:11

that? I think for right now, it is absolutely replenishment because you know, Estee Lauder is just now embarking upon launching their storefronts on Amazon and they're being very wildly successful. And of course there are some products that they're promoting, but it's mainly replenishment. But at some point. People, so many people are so used to shopping for everything online, particularly for Amazon, that I think soon people will say, Hmm, that looks very interesting there. I think I'm going to try that. And I think slowly but surely, you know, it will move to something else. Right.

Audio Only - All Participants: 58:52

Right.

Susan Gerdeman: 58:53

Yeah. I often forget about. About returns, you know, I mean, but that, that's a whole other episode. We always, you know, would think about the amount of returns and, um, but yeah, I agree with you. I think a lot of it is simply replenishment or you're purchasing products you've already used and you know. Oh yeah.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 59:10

So

Susan Gerdeman: 59:11

yeah. If

Hillary Clark-Mina: 59:11

anyone can build an Amazon storefront and do it well with the, um, with the opportunity to really inspire people to try something new, it's Estee Lauder. They, they'll, they'll find a way to, you know, give enough product knowledge, maybe even videos, some education, tutorial, and maybe even some follow up, you know, post purchase care, which can be hard with Amazon because they don't share the end user information, it's more of a bounce back QR code you have to use there, but if anybody can do it, I'm, I'm certain Estee Lauder can find a way to connect with that consumer.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 59:49

Well, you know, the first brand to launch from Estee Lauder was Clinique and it's been unbelievably successful. But one of the things too, that they've adapted is what they call the active derm strategy

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:00:02

and

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:00:02

really talking about. the benefits of this active DERM and, you know, how it works for you and you and you and you. And it's one of the things that really, I think, is helping, um, create that specificity and that individual, uh, personalization that customers are looking for. So I, but I agree. I, if anyone can do it, it will certainly be them. That's incredible.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 1:00:30

I

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:00:30

do

Hillary Clark-Mina: 1:00:30

have a personal question for you, Dr. Anne. Um, so you obviously we're looking at you and I've been admiring your skin, your hair, your brows are perfection. It's not easy to have, you know, warmth in the hair and to find a brow that is just the perfect tawny without being too gray without being too orange or too brassy. And with all of your years in the industry, I know we, we know you have anything at your fingertips, but what are some of your favorite products and brands that you personally use and relate to? You obviously love beauty and enjoy a healthy lifestyle. So what beauty tips can you share with

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:01:15

us? Well, you know, one of the things that I know from talking to other women, so many people get attached and are loyal, Susan, to your point, um, to beauty products early on and they stay with them at least in part. And so I, I, And mentioned that, um, I remember when my mother took me to a department store and she took me to the Clinique counter. Well, I still use Moisture Surge. I love Moisture Surge and some of their other products. But then as I got older and particularly when I started working in the industry, I learned, um, and Susan, you may remember, um, this little company called Cradle Holdings. And Erno Laszlo products that were founded and they had this one product called Timeless Skin. And I, I, I've used it at that time. And this has been like 20, probably 22, 3 years ago. And they, uh, used to have it at Barney's. And I just feel that I can't go out of the house without time with skin, uh, to this day. But then I use, um, a lot of Estee Lauder products. I love La Mer. I love Estee Lauder. And they're all just great products. And I love, um, I do like Bobbi Brown. makeup. I like some MAC makeup, but, um, I do, I'm very particular about the quality and I'm very reluctant to try just anything that I see that looks so cute and tricky and great design, great little, you know, uh, wonderful color packaging. I'm, I'm very traditional in that way. I really kind of like to stick to the tried and true. Tell us what lipsticks shade you're wearing. You know what this is? This is Tom Ford.

Susan Gerdeman: 1:03:25

I love Tom Ford lipsticks. I love

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:03:27

Tom Ford. All of the eye shadow. And the brown makeup is Tom Ford,

Susan Gerdeman: 1:03:33

beautiful.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:03:35

It's

Susan Gerdeman: 1:03:35

great. Do you know what shade it is for anyone who's watching? I'm taking notes. We want to put it in the show notes because your makeup looks so beautiful today. So pretty. Someone might want to ask what exact shade you have. Do you know? Wild

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:03:48

ginger, wild ginger, wild ginger lip. And the reason for it is it's, I love red. I have red fingernails, red toenails. red lipstick. But wild bit of a like an orange m with this hair somehow is of the true reds. But I l

Susan Gerdeman: 1:04:17

I love it. I love it on you. Perfect shade. Look at you go.

Hillary Clark-Mina: 1:04:21

And you know, we have a little makeup artist in there because she's talking about undertones and true reds and with all of your time in beauty and all the conversations you've had across brands. I mean, I think that you could be educating in color theory and brand and in, in just outside of, you know, the psychology and the coaching and the education she's got. She's got more going on with beauty than me. She may get credit for the psychology of color. Now there's a class I'd like to teach. Can we come back and maybe do an episode on the psychology of color? If we can steal time in 2025, maybe.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:05:03

Yes, there, that, that is a great, great subject because I think that most people. They don't understand that when they see something they like color wise, may not be the best for them. And so they buy it and then they're sad about that and they're, they regret their purchase.

Susan Gerdeman: 1:05:22

Yeah. Oh, we're going to do that. I love it. I'm Dr. Ann and we're going to do a class on that. For sure. Did you notice my cheap, my cheap trick to get a second date

Hillary Clark-Mina: 1:05:32

worked? I don't. Hilary, you're so easy. Thank you. Dr. Anne. I mean, I don't have an, we haven't gotten enough of you and you've been so generous with your time today.

Susan Gerdeman: 1:05:44

Um. Our final question, Dr. Anne, because as you know, Hillary is going to chain you uh, and keep you here for the next 10 hours, but we do have to wrap up because I know you have a busy day. Um, and it's a million dollar question. It's a crystal ball question, and it's a question that probably a lot of our listeners know we're going to ask you now. From a psychologist's point of view, Where would you like to see the cosmetic and beauty industry grow in the next 20 years? What would you like to see happen?

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:06:20

I would like to see it grow in a multi dimensional way that always pays attention to, you know, the basics of health, um, and wellness, spirituality, which is certainly part of that, as well as, um, the personal aesthetic. And I also think To grow in a way that, um, embraces minimalism in terms of simple but truthful is very important. And I, that doesn't always happen in this industry. We don't sometimes know what is true and what is not, but certainly I would like to see it evolve in that way. And I think that technology is going to play a part, but I do not think it will be the be all end all because beauty and aesthetic Is like poetry. It's ethereal. And, um, I think can only be communicated person to person. Beautiful.

Susan Gerdeman: 1:07:28

It's beautifully said. And I think, um, I think that's something that many brands, if any brands are listening to this podcast should definitely aspire to making women feel good, making them feel seen and understanding that The psychology of beauty is really where beauty begins. It is for sure. Well, thank you. I mean, you will, you will be back because

Hillary Clark-Mina: 1:07:57

we will forward all We will forward all of the requests. I'm certain that people will be banging on our doors to know how they can get more of you. So we will forward them to your resources and we will also start taking little lists of questions if people have them as well.

Susan Gerdeman: 1:08:24

And I know that some people may want to be able to find you, um, and your business. So we will be, uh, putting all that in the show notes that they can find on our website. Um, we'll be posting this on Instagram as well as TikTok and everywhere that you can find LifeGloss, you'll be able to find

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:08:46

so much, Susan. Thank you, Hillary. Thank

Hillary Clark-Mina: 1:08:48

you. Such a pleasure.

Dr. Ann Beatty: 1:08:51

It's

Susan Gerdeman: 1:08:51

been my

Hillary Clark-Mina: 1:08:52

pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.