Ep. 58 · Daniel Diermeier | Chancellor of Vanderbilt University

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Entrepreneurs. Educators. Investors. Policymakers. Hosted by GSV Founder & CEO Michael Moe, Ed on the Edge covers the "who" and the "how" of driving change in the global education landscape.

Daniel Diermeier is an internationally renowned political scientist, management scholar and visionary leader and has served as Vanderbilt University’s ninth chancellor since late 2019.  He has led major growth and innovation efforts, including expanding research funding, increasing financial aid, launching new campuses and programs, and strengthening Vanderbilt’s national and global reputation. Diermeier is also a prominent advocate for higher education reform, emphasizing institutional neutrality, civil discourse, and universities’ role in driving innovation, economic prosperity, and societal progress.

Bio via vanderbilt.edu

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Hey everybody, it's really my pleasure uh to have the opportunity today to visit with Daniel Deermeyer, who is the chancellor at Vanderbilt University. Um, Daniel and I are on the National Football Foundation board together, so it was my opportunity to meet him, but I've been just absolutely um impressed by the leadership that he's provided at Vanderbilt, taking what already was uh an exceptional university, but really evolving it um uh with uh the times. And I believe to get better to get worse in all CSTAM. Clearly, under uh uh Daniel's leadership, Vanderbilt has uh really established itself, I think, as you know, uh one of the most, if not the most, impressive, higher education institution in the in the country. Um I want to start this off in a little bit probably different than a lot of the conversations start with you. And like I mentioned, we're in the National Football Foundation board together. Historically, you know, Vanderbilt's always been a great academic institution, but athletics was not uh how you necessarily thought of the Commodores, right? And um yet now uh incredible uh uh success in the football field. You know, Diego Pavia was uh was uh runner up in the Heisman. Uh actually Eli uh uh uh Stowitz won the Campbell trophy, which to me is like the most important award in college football. And then the basketball team just got eliminated, but a heartbreaking loss this weekend uh to Nebraska. And tonight you the women's team plays Illinois. So again, thank you for taking the time. But start with just when you came in as as the as the chancellor, uh, what was your vision for athletics and how important is that to you, to the kind of your overall uh game plan for what you were trying to do at Vanderbilt?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Well, thank you very much for having me. I'll look forward to the conversation and thank you for the kind for the kind words. Well, I started July 1, 2020. So uh obviously there was COVID and all of that, which which uh occupied a lot of everybody's attention. But whenever you come to a new place, you kind of assess what are the strengths and weaknesses. And Vanderbilt had a tremendous amount of strength across the board. Um, but there were also certain things that needed work, and um athletics was clearly one of them. Um I had been um familiar with the College of Athletics, not you know, not at the at the highest level when I was at the University of Chicago, you know, that we had great athletics there, but it wasn't D1, it wasn't SEC level of uh of athletic competition. Um but I had been familiar with that um um I was at Southern Cal, my very first stop in the United States in 1988, 1989, when they were 1988, when they're competing for a national championship and then lost against Notre Dame in the last regular season game, was kind of the uh the the the the uh the the it was a wonderful time on campus. It was kind of Troy Aikman versus Rodney Pete. That was kind of like the big rivalry there with UCLA. So I had a f feeling for that. I was at Northwestern for 17 years, so I knew that. But I have to tell you, SEC is something else. Especially the SEC football. I think there is an intensity there and a passion there that I had not really seen before. And it was very quickly clear that athletics was an enormously important part of um the Vanderbilt culture, of what Vanderbilt stood for. It was very important to alums, it was very important for the community, but we were not doing so well. Um and um it became clear is that I think we had not really fully embraced that as a part of what Vanderbilt needed to be and wanted to be. It was almost kind of like, well, we want one foot in, one foot out. And that's what people responded to. That's what the fans responded to, that's what our alarms responded to. So the first question is, are we in or not? And it was very quickly clear is that we want to be in. Um, and then we want to be in at the highest level. Um, and if you're in at the highest level, you know, which for us means the SEC, well then you have to be good not only in certain areas, and we've always had we always were great in baseball, we've always been strong in tennis, golf, we've been, you know, like the powerhouse and women's bowling. So we had success, and of course, basketball was was great a few decades, you know, a few years ago. But you gotta you gotta be really successful in the big in the big uh in in those areas that have the most fan interest. And of course, that's football, uh, that's men's basketball, and then on the women's side, that's women's basketball. So we decided we're in. And then we then the question was, what do we have to do? So we did a very careful analysis. We asked ourselves, you know, a little bit like if we were an outside, almost like an outside investor, what would we have to do to turn this around? It was very quickly clear we had not invested in um in the in facilities that at a level that was required, uh both for the uh performance on the field but also the fan experience. So we did a very careful analysis. We said, you know, we need to have we need to invest at least$200 million. That led to the Van United campaign, which was our commitment to do this. And uh we now have raised um close to 400 million, so we're very happy with that. We have a beautiful football stadium now, all renovated. We have tremendous uh basketball practice facilities and operations center, and it's great to see the success on the field. So that was the origin of it. I should also say, you know, the most important thing with all of these things is once you set your expectations, once you set your direction, now you need to bring the right people in. And so we my first hire when I was at Vanderbilt was uh Candace Zee, our athletic director, uh, who did a phenomenal job and that's widely recognized now. We brought new coaches in and football, men's, and women's basketball. They're all doing phenomenal. And so it was about commitment, being a place. You needed to bring in great people and create an environment where they could succeed. That's kind of what we did.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Well, and again, you've clearly done it. So, why is that so important for the I mean the overall university experience? What sort of the benefits that Vanderbilt gets from that, both for the student community, for the overall, you know, kind of national community, or if you were the or the or the you know the Commodore uh nation. And then also what sort of the what why do you think athletics, just as a as a concept, is is you know important to be excellent in, um, along with the the academic pieces that clearly Vanderbilt has you know made its um bones in.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

So I think there are a couple of perspectives on that. When we think about universities, it is a wonderful way to bring the university community together. So um nothing brings us together quite like uh you know athletics, um, and to root for your team over months, um, you know, when they're there's all the triumph and heartbreak that we have in the athletic competition, is very powerful. I mean, we know this as a country, when we have the Olympics, you know, every four years, how everybody is, even though you know very little about like specific athletics, and when you kind of all glued together, you all root for Team USA. That's the that's the experience uh we have we have on our campus environment as well. So that's one piece. Very, very, very helpful, really creates a culture on campus. It kind of exemplifies our values as well. It's both about competition and cooperation, if you will. Team sports have that, they exemplify that. And then it's a differentiator for us when we're thinking about um our own environment because you know we're competing for the best students with the Ivies. And you know, that the IVs have athletics, but they don't have it at that level. And so if you wanna if you want to come to Vanderbilt, you get a great academic, you get a great academic education, it's a place where we want you to grow as per as a person, it's collaborative in the way that where we're challenging each other and support each other as Nashville, and then there's that. That's a strong package. But there's one more thing, I think, that that is really powerful, and that I think goes a little bit deeper than that. Um I believe that athletics is life simplified. That's why we love it. Okay, we love it, we love the values that are there, we love um, we love the excitement, we love the the triumphs, we love the tragedies, we like the virtues, and we like like we like all that. Because it's very hard for us to assess where somebody's a world-class brain surgeon or world-class quantum physicist, but it's much easier to see that if you know a quarterback is on the two-yard line and it's fourth and nineteenth, and he hits a fourth down and everybody's excited, you know? Um, or we have a buzzer beater uh, you know, which we which we didn't have, you know, a couple of days ago. It was just like half an inch, right? Um, everybody understands that every man connect with that. And that is now very valuable for us because we're having, as you mentioned, Michael, we're doing many things. They are ambitious, there are many cases um pioneering, things that that that we have not done, other universities have not done. And when people say, you know, how are you gonna how are you gonna pull this off? It's now nice for me to say, well, remember, five and a half years ago when we started, nobody believed this was possible. Maybe me and Candace Lee, and you know, maybe my board chair, maybe one more person. But most people thought this was this was impossible, it was impossible to compete in the SEC in football for a school like Vanderbilt. Um, and I'm not just making this up. There was like uh when I came as the new chancellor, there was an op-ed piece in a local paper, the Tennessee, and where there was an op-ed piece where the writer uh basically said, you know, um, the journalist said, you know, look, you know, welcome to Vanderbilt, an open letter to the new chancellor. It's time to leave the SEC because you're an embarrassment to the conference. That was in the summer of 2000. So when we look back to this now, we can say, hey, if we can do this, we can do anything. So it's a powerful lesson of setting your aspirations high, getting the right people, and then putting them in an environment there where they can do their best work.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

I think that's it's a very powerful lesson, message, and being able to just it's one thing to say it, it's another to do it. And so now people have all have that experience. And so I I mean, I I won't go into some of my story, but I played football for for Lou Holtz. I went to his funeral last week in South Bend.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

And then but a lot of what he did was he beat he beat South Bend Calvin when I was there, the Lou Holtz.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Well, you talked about Rodney Pete and and uh it might have been Steve Berlane at that time, but uh maybe maybe Twitter race, I'm not sure. But um, in any event, it was it was um you know it was reminiscent because nobody thought Minnesota, where he was before Nordame, could compete. But he set these expectations, he had a very specific plan. There were little things that add up to a big thing and a big vision, and oh you know, here you go. You you you proved a lot of skeptics wrong. Um talk about so and and the other kind of multiplier effects. I mean, it gives confidence, it's sort of a model, if you will, to to life and pick yourself up. But some other benefits for the for the for for Vanderbilt. How I mean I know your endowment's now over$10 billion. How much does success in sports made it? Is that is that played a role in terms of people getting excited to do that? Oh, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah. I mean, it's the it's always you know, it's a little difficult to exactly assign kind of causality to do these things, but uh we're we're we already have broken our fundraising record this year. Um and we're we're we're like uh it's you know we're we're very excited about the support that we're getting. And interestingly, it's not only for athletics, but it's across the board.

unknown 12:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

So we're yeah, it spills over. It spills over. And and and basically everybody is proud, everybody's even more proud, even people are even happier. And um, you know, it there was always like this problem that our alums said, you know, we love the university, but you know, in the one area where everybody pays attention, we weren't great. And this is like uh this was the water cooler problem that our alums had. And uh and now everybody is proud, everybody's excited, it's just kind of like a happiness factor that has increased both on campus and for alum in our parent community, and that's just a powerful thing. And uh it's like it's um, you know, the amount of attention that athletics generates, if we just quantify it, it's like 10 times bigger than anything we ever do. And so people say sometimes, you know, it's the front porch of the university, it is it just constantly keeps you um top of mind for so many people, and then you know, if and then it's it's wonderful to see that that support that you get that's sometimes maybe generated from that, then spills over in philanthropic support, or students want to come venable. You know, I mean our like last year our early decision numbers, which is kind of first preference, went up by 16%, now it's up by 20% over last year's number. So all of that is a package, and then you know, I'm sure we're gonna get there in a minute, but the the other things that you know what a vendable education is about, you know, the quality of academic life, the commitment to civil discourse, all these things fit together beautifully now and kind of reinforce each other.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah, and we won't get to that in a second, but the stand topic, so so we'll you know, you had the fluid effect, well now this will be the Diego effect. Um but talk a little bit more about the studio, I mean the world's changed in college athletics, NILs, transfer portal. Kind of what's your point of view or philosophy of the new world we're in and how does Vanderbilt um look to to um define it for Vanderbilt?

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Yeah, so I think there are these are these are as you say, these are two questions. Let me let me talk first about the overall state of affairs, and then um how we thought about that. So the first thing is is that uh it's a it's a complete transformation of college athletics. Um there is I I sometimes compare it, it's like kind of, you know, it's like it's like like airline deregulation in the late 70s. Okay, well the world will never be the same. And um and there are lots of aspects that are problematic. Um we have not really settled on a new model of competition. Um, but the the getting back to the old model is not possible either. So there is a sense of like we we need to work through this now. I think that we have the elements of what a new model could look like in place, but not the structure to make it a reality. So there's way too much kind of problems with like exactly how this NIL, how the settlement is going to be enforced, and and how do you do that? And and um it's not it's not working yet. I think there's a chance that it can work, but at this point we have too many problems. We're still kind of in this kind of like you know, transitional period, if you will, from an old model to a new model. Um so that's that's common one. So we need there's urgent work that needs to be done, it's very complicated, and you know, sometimes you read like the media sense like, oh, people just have to sit together and do it. It's not that easy, it's really complicated because um the legal issues alone are like um are very complex and difficult to maneuver through. So that's the that's the overall that's the overall sense. Now, what we have done is in part because you know we didn't have so much of a legacy. You know, we could we could kind of look at that fresh. I think many, many, many storied programs um had to come to grips that the world is gonna be different. We were much quicker on that. I mean, we we already like three years ago had a whole working group that worked through A, what should the model be, and how do we compete in the new model, and then and then we we we we you know we try to play a positive role through the SEC in having and having um having our voice uh lead to a or at least having some impact and getting to a good spot, but then also we needed to compete with that. And um it's amazing for me to see how like somebody like Coach Lee, our football coach, was able to to um transform his own approach from one that was still kind of molded in the old model to the new one, and um and you know the whole New Mexico State, you know, episode and you know, bringing in Diego and um and Eli and you know the coaches um was an example of that, is that that where he really changed his perspective and you know realized that this is a new world and you're gonna have to compete differently in a new world than in the old world, and then have the fortitude and clarity of thought to take action accordingly. So I'm I'm enormously impressed by that because that takes a lot of self-awareness and courage to set aside the things that have been successful in the past and now embrace a new environment. So I think we, with a couple of other universities, were kind of early in that. We were, we I think we understood quickly that the world would be different, and then we we put the structures in place and we put the the leaders in place that would be able to think differently and a little bit more agile than many other programs.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Well, it's working. Uh let's talk. I mean, you look at the overall higher ed environment, and there's a number of leaders that are kind of crying in their beer for you know the different issues that are going on, the credibility of higher ed, uh, you know, it's has has fallen significantly in terms of its status stature with people, you know, even just 10 years. I mean, the higher ed was viewed as important by college is important for 75% of the population today. Uh you know, half the people would say that. And and a lot of people today are kind of blaming the new administration and saying it's all their fault, but but obviously these issues were going on before this administration. You and uh President uh Martin from Wash U came up with an article uh last year that talked about sort of your your kind of your your your plan for you know what needs to happen to to raise higher education to the stature it deserves. What first of all, what what were you seeing? And what are what what are kind of some of the key things that you and President Martin think need to happen?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

So the the it's very important to remember and to be mindful of like what wonderful institutions, universities are, and especially, I think I'm particularly proud of my segment, which is kind of the you know large research university in the United States, they are the they are a crown jewel, they are the best in the world. Many other countries try to imitate them and see how they can follow that model, and the impact that they have through their path tracking research and transformative education is second to none. We should never forget that. And with all the criticism that we have of universities, is that they are they are enormously important on the educational side, and they are enormously important as the core of the innovation economy. So many innovations that we take for granted came out of university research. So that's that's number one. Number two, is there things that need to be addressed. Uh the the main thing that uh that Chancellor Martin and I have been worried about, uh, and for years, I mean, it goes back to my provost years at the University of Chicago, um, almost 10 years now, when I when I started really kind of uh thinking seriously about this, is my main worry is that we have seen a politicization of universities over the last years. Um, I would say a mission drift away from a mission that was focused exclusively on knowledge generation, if you will, and on discovery and on education, away towards position taking on political issues. Universities are universities, they're there for pathbreaking research and for transparency. They're not a political party and they're not they should not see themselves as part of a political movement. However, I think that that clarity um was there was there was I think mission drift and there were sliding as a sector. Um that led um that was one of the main drivers about the erosion of trust. When we look at the data, um approval of the American public, trust of the American public in university has plummeted on both sides of the aisle, but especially among conservatives. And one of the main concerns is that there is uh you know ideological skew, politicization, lack of viewpoint diversity. People use different words and concepts, they're not the same, but they all point to the Same problem. And what Chancellor Martin and I, in the piece that we wrote before the Trump administration took office in October, said we need to be absolutely laser focused on our purpose, on our mission, and the values that support them, and do not get dragged into the political battle, even though it's tempting. It manifests itself in multiple ways. If you look over the last 10 years, there were debates over free speech, speakers being shouted down. There was debates over institutional neutrality, which is really about universities not taking position on political issues. So those are there are different manifestations of that. Now there are a lot of other issues that we're talking about, questions of academic freedom, civil discourse. They all point, however, from my point of view, to the same root cause. The same root cause is that universities have moved away from their core mission and have been drifted into position taking, and we need to get back to what university are all about and what their core purpose should be.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

On the research front, and I and I know you guys have over a billion dollars of government-funded research. How much do you think is just a messaging problem? Because you know, a dollar of research investment has generated over five dollars to society, but how many people even understand that or see or understand all the important breakthroughs that have been created through this important research?

SPEAKER_00 23:41

It's both. It's both a messaging problem and it's also a problem about how do we run university and what's happening on a campus. There is no doubt that we as a sector have not done a good job in communicating to the American public what a treasure used at universities are. Michael, you mentioned, you know, very strong evidence that for every dollar that the American taxpayer invests in research universities, the American public gets$5 back. That is an enormous return. And any major innovation that you can think about, from touch screens to the foundations of um, you know, AI, this goes back to you know kind of normal network models, to like medical breakthroughs, um those things happen at the great research universities, um, and they happen at an astonishing rate and and in and an astonishing scope. Uh, whether you're interested in education, whether interested in uh national security, whether interested in economic competitiveness, whether you're interested in AI, we're interested in quantum. We are doing so much on that. But we have not articulated that clearly enough, I think. And the more we do that, the better. So that's that's that's number one. But it's not just a messaging problem. Because many people are worried about what happens at their campuses. Uh, we know this from parents that uh are now like um looking at Vanderbilt as their preferred destination. They often have sons and daughters at other universities, and they are troubled by what's happening on their campuses. And of course, exhibit number one was what happened um after October 7th on many campuses. Um the the harassment um of Jewish students, um the breakdown, I think, of um a culture of uh discourse and debate. Um very troubling. And um it's it's I think that was a that should have been a wake, that should be, and I think it was to a certain extent, a wake-up call for universities is that things have gone uh in the wrong direction, have moved in the wrong direction. We need to go back to the focus on that. And um it's not an isolated thing, and it has deeper root causes, um, and we need to address those. So it's both it's both a question about communication and clarity of how we talk about ourselves, but it's also about what we do on campus to make sure that we're creating an educational environment that is that is not biased in one direction or another.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

And and clearly, you mean the articulation of that to begin with, the clarity of that, you know, is is resonates, and and my understanding is Vanderbilt's been a beneficiary of a bunch of parents and and students that that want to be in that environment. And I know you grew up in West Berlin and Germany, so you have particular sensitivity to some of the issues. What specifically has Vanderbilt done to make sure that you, on one hand, promote free speech and rigorous debate, but people's rights are protected?

SPEAKER_00 26:55

We are um very clear about what our values are. We communicate that clearly, both inside the university camp community, but also to students, uh faculty, and staff that want to join. So the way we think about it, we have three pillars. Pillar one is what we call open forums. Open forums is really of the free exchange of ideas, um, a commitment to free speech. And um the way this manifests itself is that um we are historically already, we have been a place that welcomes outside speakers, for example, from a whole variety of different backgrounds. And our faculty and students can invite to campus wherever they want. They don't have to check with us. Goes back to the 60s, in 1967 already, Vanderbilt student organized what's called an impact symposium, where they had the Storm Thurman and Stokely Carmichael and Alan Ginsberg all on campus in one weekend. So this is this is this is a powerful part of our tradition. Um, and it is it is there so that we have we are an environment where our students can explore ideas broadly without being worried about retributional censorship. That's pillar one. Pillar two, so we call institutional neutrality. Institutional neutrality uh means that we will not take sides on contested political or policy issues unless they're directly connected to the core purpose of the university. We will not take sides on Israel-Palestine, we'll not take sides on the DORPS decision. So we are, and the reason why we we as a university, as a university leadership, because we want to create space for our faculty and for our students to debate these issues freely. We don't want to have an institutional orthodoxy on campus. And then the third one is a commitment to civil discourse, which means that we are, as members of one community dedicated to research and education, are committed to a culture where we listen to each other, where we use arguments, where we use fact-based reasoning, where we treat each other with respect, we don't yell at each other, we don't ostracize each other just because we disagree. And then these are the three pillars, and then you have to act accordingly. So when after October 7th, first, I should say the first three months of students were awesome, fantastic, lived really the values of civil discourse. But then we had a you know more radical group, and they were breaking some rules, and then you had to act accordingly. You know, you had to be willing to call a spade a spade, and when rules are broken, you have to, then there have to be consequences, and there are consequences from the students. So that's the principle side. However, what I think is really underappreciated and enormously important is a culture of free expression. The culture is just as important as the principles. So it's not enough to say, you know, put these principles on the wall or to have like one class where students can talk about this stuff. It needs to be part of the culture, it needs to be part of how we do things at Vanderbilt. And so we have an enormous amount of programming around that, uh, which we call dialogue Vanderbilt, and the students have now embraced that and accepted that. And just to give you an example, what this means in practice, after Shirley Kirk was shot, um, our college republicans and our Democrats, call college democrats, both vibrant chapters, um, that often do things together, by the way, very uncommon on university campus, that their whole debate, kind of uh, you know, quasi-presidential debate before the election on the topics of what was it, uh, abortion, immigration, the size of the federal government, all all well argued in front of 200 students, well organized. So these two groups, when Charlie Kirk was shot, on their own, with we had nothing to do with it. Um, issued a joint statement where they condemned the killing and recommitted to a culture of civil discourse. That's what you want. And it's this is not a given because students often, when they come to university now, as hard as we try to select students that want this, they need to learn how to do it because they're often not prepared from their high schools. So this is an in this is a major a major effort to foster a culture of open inquiry, but when you have it, it's very powerful.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

I have uh probably two or three more hours of questions, but I know you got to get to a basketball game, but I want to just finish because um innovation is very important to GSV and this audience. And one of the things I think you know people kind of you know said, well, that's interesting. Um talk about the plan that you have. You you open a New York City campus, going to Palm Beach, going to San Francisco. I I've heard you say that innovation is local, but what do you mean by that? And what's sort of the grand strategy? What are you trying to accomplish?

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Yes, yeah, great. Thank you. Yeah. So we're we're in the process of having four new campuses that we're opening up. The first one, the first one where we're having the first set of students coming in, is New York that's gonna we're already operating, but we welcome the first kind of group of students uh in the fall of 26. We're working on West Palm Beach. Um, that's a larger investment, um about a thousand students, a hundred faculty. We're doing something of similar scale in San Francisco, and we're building a quantum campus in Chattanooga, Tennessee, which is really focused on quantum engineering. Um now the the joint vision is really the following. We strongly believe that if you bring together a local innovation ecosystem and a university, magic can happen. Uh there's a symbiosis between a university and uh the innovation community around it that can create incredible things. We know this from the research, there's a lot of there's a lot of evidence for that, but my own personal experience was when I was at Stanford from 94 to 97, the the magic that happened when the internet economy was born between the basically collaboration, partnership between Silicon Valley and Stanford was incredible. Now, once you believe that, then where you are matters. Or to put it differently, if you want to build a world-class film school, don't do it in a rural location. You want to do it in New York or you want to do it in LA? Because of the symbiosis between the community and the research university. So we we took this to heart, and so whenever we look now at a new opportunity, we ask ourselves what we can do world-class level in Nashville? And there are many things we can. An example is, for example, in healthcare, where we are world leader entertainment and innovation. Of course, Music City, there's pieces of that, there are pieces on mobility, there are a couple of others, but there are also areas where, for example, uh Palm Beach shines. And that's in the area of kind of finance and technology, defense technology, space tech. New York, of course, is a global city that has a whole variety of things that it offers, including things like media, international finance, and so forth. And of course, San Francisco is, you know, arguably the capital of innovation, particularly right now in AI, has a strong artistic community as well. So we're looking, we're not interested in just growing for growth's sake or for doing what we're doing in Nashville somewhere else. We're looking for places where if we if we make an investment there, if we bring our faculty there together, we can create something great and unique.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Um, listen, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I hope we can get you back on Ed on the Edge and other things, programs that we're doing. But um again, congratulations for the success you're having and the vision that you have. It's incredibly exciting. And um go Commodore's win tonight.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Thank you so much. Very much enjoyed the conversation, Michael. Thanks, Daniel.