Diagnosing High Masking Autistic Children with Dr Taylor Day (Part 2)

This is part two with Dr. Taylor Day.

Listen to Part 1 "The Whole Family Approach with Autistic Children"

Our conversation continues as we talk about different therapies and approaches for autistic children. We touch on PDA (pathological demand avoidance), masking, and allowing autonomy.

Dr. Taylor Day is a child psychologist who uses a neuro-affirming approach she calls The Whole Family Approach in working with families of autistic children.


This is PART TWO, if you haven't listened to part one yet, head to the feed and have a listen.

You can follow Dr. Tay on socials:
Instagram: @the.dr.tay
TikTok: @the.dr.tay

Learn more about her clinic and services: DrTaylorDay.com

Listen to her podcast: Evolve with Dr. Tay
Episode 16, her family's autism story

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Transcript

  Okay friends. This is part two as my interview with Dr. Taylor day. We've left off talking about teaching your children. Self-advocacy. Compared to compliance. If you haven't listened to part one. Go back and listen to that. This is a flow on of that conversation. So we're just jumping right into my response of her talking about how using an example of like hand over hand to teach a child to do something. Versus allowing them to learn at their own pace and in a way that works best for them. 

 

I hope you enjoy this conversation. 

If you do, please share it. Subscribe, review it, help us grow this little community so we can keep getting amazing guests like Taylor to come on. 📍  

And it's very similar to,  respectful or gentle parenting of so common. The saying is like, it seems like it's not working until it works because it does feel like there's more. 

Push back or  maybe other generations would call it like talk back, but it's,  I'm laying out my expectations and at the same time, my daughter or the child has the opportunity to share their thoughts and  push back and test the boundaries, which is what they need. And I think especially like you're talking about with different therapies being.

Like more conducive to letting the child learn at their own pace and grow their autonomy. We need to keep in mind too especially with respect. I, it's like such a pet peeve of mine.  We need to model that to them. We need to be treating them with respect.  And we can't expect them to, having never received anything to then.

Automatically know how to give it and with not  giving them any autonomy, it's then, yeah, like you said, at 18, what do we expect is going to happen if you have always done things for them or always put things in a way where they don't have to build the skills on their own. There's always that kind of training wheels, in your analogy. 

Yeah, I hear this a lot of what's going to happen if I use more of this like high autonomy approach, whether again, there's so many different names for it. And one of the things  You know, it's like we're not preparing them for the real world. This is something I hear a lot  and it looks different, right?

So our generation was quote unquote prepared for the real world. But how many of us are in therapy right now? How many of us are working through perfectionism in people pleasing and learning how to actually advocate for ourselves as adults. And so in one way, yeah, if we only measure success based on. 

But even I don't know how many people have college degrees, but they're not actually doing that thing. And maybe they didn't really want to go to college, but they just thought they had to go to college. And so I think it's really interesting that we, We fear the unknown and there isn't an unknown right now that if we are teaching these skills exactly what that outcome will be because there's just not enough research on it, but also is it working the way that we were raised?

I would think You know, there's tweaks that need to be made. And I think one of the things that we're seeing with younger generations is like their ability to advocate for themselves is incredibly mind blowing, and their acceptance of differences is incredibly mind blowing.  Just because it's different doesn't mean it's worse.

And I think that's a lot of the time with these approaches, it's different and we automatically equate it to it's going to be a worse outcome. We actually don't know until we know, but my rule of thumb is I'd rather treat someone as a human right now and see the shakeout effect than the shakeout effect of not treating them as a human right now. 

Yeah, absolutely. And if we could shift just slightly to talk still very in line with that of strength based versus deficit based approach. So this is something it's talked about  kind of in a lot of different ways, but especially when we're looking at autistic children  focusing on their strengths versus focusing on their deficits.

So can you talk a bit more about, a quick breakdown if people haven't heard of those before, and then we can dive in.  

Yeah. And I think the history of this is important. So a deficit model where it's really coming from is it's the medical models, conceptualization of disability.  And it's coming from, we use in the U.

S. The diagnostic and statistical manual to diagnose something like autism. It's the ICD codes, elsewhere in the world. But if you look at the diagnostic criteria for autism, it's talking about it from this deficit lens of what is wrong that there are in, and it literally will say like deficits in.

Social emotional reciprocity deficits in nonverbal communication and what this deficit lens says is that basically this neurotypical standard is the ideal or the right and anything else that deviates from that is the wrong and we need to change that in order to map on to these neurotypical standards.

So that is how autism is diagnosed and it's really interesting as a neural. Affirming psychologists. I still have to play by those rules in order to diagnose autism, but there's also ways in which we can do that. And so ultimately we've seen the neurodiversity movement sweep in the best way possible.

And, it's been around, but I really believe it's because of social media like Instagram and tick tock in particular that we've seen so much. Such a level of awareness about this because so many autistic adults and it's not just about autism but neurodivergent adults are talking about this and what neurodiversity broadly says is, that different.

Isn't flawed. It doesn't need fixed, it's just different. It's, it diverges from neuro typicality, but neuro typicality isn't the gold standard. And so basically when we switch to a neurodiversity affirming lens, what we're saying is we're gonna recognize. Again, the whole person how is their brain wired?

How is their brain made up? As human beings, we all have strengths and support needs. Even if you don't have a diagnosis, you still have support needs. And so it's a viewing the person holistically in that way. And so the strengths based approach really, it's not saying. We're only focusing on the strengths, but it's helping to amplify the strengths and then talk about these quote unquote deficits as differences. 

And then we're approaching it from this. this place in terms of therapy and support as how do we promote quality of life. And this is where a great example of it, a deficit could be, Oh the autistic child doesn't make eye contact versus a differences. Yeah. They have differences in how they communicate.

One of their strengths maybe is their spoken language. They're not using eye contact in the same way So then what care would say more of a behavioral based approach to care or more of this medical model of we have to teach  this child to make eye contact versus a neuro affirming approach would just say, They don't have, why do they have to make eye contact?

Is that promoting their quality of life in any way? No, more likely than not. Do they have an effective way of communicating? Yes. Can we honor that communication?  

Yeah. And I think just that little switch,  because in a lot of things, it doesn't have to be that big of language change. It doesn't have to be that big of a perspective shift.

It's literally just going,  again, my motto is does it really matter? Does it really matter if they are speaking to you and they are engaging in other ways?  Does it matter if they're not making eye contact? And for me, I'm someone where  I'm going to actually engage with you better if I'm not Having to make eye contact because it is an extra stimuli that I am then trying to process out and trying to filter out while maintaining the 18 streams of thought and  everything else that's going on.

So I think  I'm really glad that so many therapists like yourself are bringing this in and talking about it more and educating about it.  I wish the medical model would catch up, but I understand  in, in  kind of practice, it takes a long time for things from institutional side to filter down. We  see how outdated and maybe not the best that some things in the DSM are, but  we're just waiting for, The next version and see what happens and see how the language in there has changed in the diagnostics have changed.

But  yeah I'm glad that you're educating on it. I'm glad that you're actually speaking about how there is a difference and how the change is not that great. Not as great as probably some older practitioners would make it out to be.  

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't actually think it's that big of a change.

And then I also want to mention on this because, of course, and I use a, a example that might apply maybe to someone who is more high masking, Old language, we would call that high functioning. That's how dirt data terminology, but, high masking or low support needs. But I want to also emphasize that this same model of neurodiversity absolutely can apply to those with moderate and high support needs as well, and I think sometimes we get caught in this trap that we only think about it for those with low support.

Support needs and that's not true whatsoever. I think about, I use the example of eye contact versus, spoken language, but we also can take it another way of spoken language versus other forms of communication that viewing, AAC as extremely a valid and effective way of communicating and allowing, those that are nonspeaking Speaking to be able to communicate in that way.

I think it's amazing to watch, how much more we can access, but then also like a, an old school approach that's more this medical model would be like, okay, they press it on their a c and now let's prompt them for the word. And it's no, like that is not affirming and that also is not honoring what their strengths are.

Their strengths are being able to communicate. through this device and being able to express themselves through this device. And so we absolutely still can honor the same process with moderate and high support needs. And I think at the core, again, it comes back to viewing the human as a human. and not parsing apart and saying, this is the autism.

Oh, but this is it's a neurotype. It's the way the brain is wired. And holistically, this is who you are as a human being. And, we can't say that in one way, like this, intense interest is, atypical oh, you love everything about trains, that's atypical, but then you go and get a job, at a, on a train and now you're helping, to fix the train.

I don't know. I'm like pulling this off the top of my head. All of a sudden it works.  It's not like a deficit in one way and then, a strength in another, it's all the same. And so sometimes I think we get so stuck on trying to parse everything apart. It's let's just support the human for who they are and helping them to, really be able to connect with others, follow their passions and ultimately have the best quality of life.

That's our focus for neurotypical kids. So why can't that be our focus for neurodivergent kids as well?  

Absolutely. And that's spot on. If the child  is neurotypical and they're just like super into cars and they say they want to be a mechanic, no one bats an eye, but it's when it's their special interest and it's all they're obsessed with and  then somehow it's problematic.

And it's it is just such a. No, let's make you fit into this box when that's never ever going to happen and  someone working in a field of their special interest like that is living their best life.  That is a dream that I think all of us have of being able to actually work and do something that we can make a living, but actually.

sparks interest in us and sparks like a, sense of curiosity ongoing instead of just  dredging through life like older generations were taught to do. Exactly. Totally. Can we talk a little bit because you do, you see You know, children of different ages,  and I think most people are quite familiar with the quote unquote typical signs of autism in kids, but what if someone  maybe has like an inkling, or maybe one of the parents happens to be autistic, or there's, because we do know there is autism.

a hereditary factor. There's several factors, but there can be a hereditary factor. So what are some non typical signs that  maybe if someone notices, maybe then they consider getting more support? 

Yeah. I think this is a great question to think about, and I will say I it's not aired yet, but I have an upcoming episode.

I have an episode. It was like episode four of my podcast that really broke down autism criteria. And then I have an upcoming episode where I'm talking about autism and girls and really what it is. I framed it that way because that was the request, but really what it is it's more of these subtle, traits and symptoms.

And I like, again, I break down diagnostic criteria in that, but I would say things like, a lot of emotion dysregulation, that's not a diagnostic thing. feature of autism, but like difficulty, regulating emotions needing more support to co regulate. I think something like that can be interesting to look at.

I think also really like early,  So we often think of like developmental delays with autism and they can be there, but we also can see really advanced skills in some areas like, they're really precocious in like they're reading right? Like they're reading early. You never had to teach them how to read.

All of a sudden they're, they know all their letters and numbers. That's called  hyperlexia and it's often associated, with autism, I think, wanting things in a certain way to do things like over and over. And sometimes this is hard to notice if as a parent, you're just naturally accommodating is, but wanting things like to go in a certain way.

And you find yourself as a parent, like constantly responding to that. I think interestingly with peers, like if we have slightly older kids, there's differences where let me give this framework real quick. I always talk about autism and I don't even know if I learned this from somewhere. I always try to give credit where credits do, or if it's just something that I like eventually figured out.

But I think of those stereotypical autism traits as what I call quantity traits. where it's like you can answer yes, no. Does your child flap? Does your child make eye contact? Does your child have friends and you're answering yes, no, and they're meeting diagnostic criteria based on that.

Those are quantity traits, but I also think we need to look at what I call quality traits. traits of the degree of that and the nuances of that. And so does your child have friends? If the answer is no, that's more straightforward. But if it's yeah, they do have friends. Then we want to ask more probing questions of okay, can they easily make new friends? Maybe it's like they've had all their friends since they were little and they don't make new friends. Or do they keep friends? Are they cycling through friends really quickly? Or when they play, are they always the one that has to be in control? And then if someone adds something that there's not flexibility there, so I think it's This is the important thing to keep in mind is there's a degree to everything.

And this is where I it drives me nuts when people are like, it can't be autism. They make eye contact. It's okay. There's so many questions I could ask about the follow up question of eye contact alone. And so I think, ultimately what it comes down to is if your instinct as a parent is feeling like something is different, that it can be helpful to also look in to it.

But I'd also, refer you back to those episodes where I really break down diagnostic criteria as a resource. 

well,

And kind of on that. If you, because I think you can see quite early when children start to mask, especially when then you're talking to like daycare or school teachers, and you know how they are at home in their safe space and the teachers reporting that they are totally different there.

How do you deal with a child masking when you think they're autistic, but all of their own? Other care and support people see the masked version. So the school report is not yes, they're having meltdowns. It's yeah, they do everything that we expect and there's never a problem.  

Yeah, I think that there's a couple of different ways that I can answer this question.

Do you? Do you want me to talk about more in terms of the diagnosis piece, how I sort that out, or more like how parents  talk to schools or places that they're masking? 

More, so if the child isn't diagnosed yet and you're like, I think I want to go down this route, but All of their supporting other care people only see the mask version.

How do I get this  supporting information from them?  

Yeah, I think sometimes it can be tricky. I think one is having conversations with these other people about this concept of masking and just saying listen, I do see a very different kid. It's not that they're truly different when a kid is masking.

There still are indicators of that there, like of the traits. It's that they often just are camouflaged in with everything else. Like you don't notice them as much. But sometimes too, it comes down to compliance. Do they just feel like they have to follow the rules? Or what is their safety in that environment to be able to fully express themselves?

And so I think first acknowledging it, but number two, I think this is the bigger piece of it is you might not get those people on board, but finding a provider who understands the phenomena of masking. So I guess this kind of also answers the question I posed. Post is I still collect measures from school.

It's not uncommon where parents are reporting a lot and schools reporting nothing, and I'm still making that autism diagnosis.  And some of that is because, and historically we would have been like no, like autism is consistent across environments, but like a lot of times, because I know what masking looks like, I can see some of these subtleties and I can talk with parents about them and compare What I'm observing versus what parents are and have a very candid conversation.

And then I can generalize if I'm seeing this mass presentation, I can still see the autistic traits because I. That's my training, right? But then I can talk about like in the school environment, they're probably not picking up on some of these subtle things. And so I would focus there on more so yes, have these conversations with people, but more finding a provider who understands masking.

And that can be something you like actually ask is do you understand You know, masking. What do you know about  neurodiversity? What are you going to do if my child masks during the evaluation? Do you, what measurement data points do you rely on? So a lot of times you hear like the ADOS being the quote unquote gold standard.

What if they mouse during the entire ADOS and don't meet on the ADOS, but there's all these other indicators. Are you incorporating that? And I think the, a lot of neuroaffirming providers have shifted away from the ADOS for different reasons. But I will still use it when I'm doing like in person stuff.

I largely do telehealth now, but I think that.  It's also, I could go on a soapbox about this and I won't, but even pre all this like neuro affirming knowledge that I learned or information, I think people misuse the measure sometimes too, of the ADOS being the end all be all. And it's no, it's.

It's one data point. This is a way for us to systematically collect behavioral observations. Maybe the kid didn't flap during the assessment, but they have flapped right after you can't code that on the ADOS, but that doesn't mean it's not an autistic trait that's relevant to this diagnosis process.

So

thanks. I know you were like restraining yourself, I have seen something that says that potentially PDA and  yes, we know PDA is a theory but and it's not in most places in actual diagnosis yet,  but I have seen that. Even in PDA kids, they might even be higher masking than non PDA. Is that something that you have observed with your clients? 

Yes.  And, but I want to give it a caveat. So yes, in the sense that I find A lot of these kids are missed. So I get a lot of referrals like where parents learn about PDA and that's their entry point into autism. I also get a lot of second opinion consults where parents have already been told, no, it's not autism.

And then the parents are feeling like, I feel like there's something more. And. I will say most times I'm diagnosing autism as a result of all of that. And it's because it's this high masking profile. So I think that yes, that is true. And we see PDA  and high masking often go hand in hand, but I also want to make sure that we're not leaving out, you can have the PDA profile with, moderate to high support needs, and I want to make sure, I think there's this presentation right now on social media that is very focused on the low support needs individuals in this high masking.

And yes, it's true, but it's not.  synonymous, right? Like PDA equals high masking either. And but I do think sometimes if  the autistic individual has the, this PDA profile, again, theorized, but has this like PDA kind of conceptualization  and they are low support needs. I think there's a lot of times, sometimes more baseline skills.

Like we can see, for example, more pretend play  Because it's actually an avoidance strategy. A lot of times of like escaping into this, like alternate reality. We can see definitely like sometimes these kids, really know how to sense their environment. They're super sensors. I get a lot of times like kids be or parents being like, yeah, my kid is highly empathetic, right?

And they notice everything. And it's we don't often.  Associate that with autism, it is, but we don't that stereotypical presentation. And I think that, just some more like baseline social skills tend to be there, but then we need to inquire about that internal experience. Okay, maybe they're having conversations, maybe they're making eye contact, but how hard is it for this individual?

How hard are they having to work? What's that internal experience like? Yes, I do think we see that, but I also want to be cautious that we're not making PDA synonymous with high masking autism. 

Yeah, and I understand that, that clarification. , so there was a,  I don't know, I think it was Tik Tok, one of the platforms, where someone had posted of their child who was doing things that,  if,  I don't know, we often say like, when but things that appeared very typically autistic and a woman commented it.

I don't know.  Is he autistic? I love his happiness because it was like an autistic joy moment.  And in the comment section, she got  Completely attacked, berated,  a slew of things, and  I'm curious, is that ever okay? Is it ever okay, not doesn't have to just be online, but is it ever okay to just flat out ask, or is that because is  I think it's fine, but I am also autistic and so like, I don't social protocols are not always my strong suit, but is it ever okay just to outright to see a child on the playground or to see and, go Oh, are they autistic? 

Great question. So I'm curious if this video did the original parent that posted it say like my child's autistic and these are their autistic traits? No. Okay. No. Okay. Yeah, so and it wasn't an account where it was like clearly because you'll see a lot of those where it's like clearly like these are my child's autistic traits.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. This is tricky, right? Because I think that what my answer to this is I don't have a cut and dry, but I think this is a great example of where maybe this concept of  accepting and neurodiversity is moving faster than our world is ready for, right? From an acceptance standpoint, like it shouldn't be shameful to say that, but I still think there's so much internalized ableism or maybe even outright ableism that exists when someone sees that.

And so I think that It's hard, right? What do other people think of it? But then also I think about if the parent themselves isn't ready to hear that, it can be really hard. That also comes because of what an autism diagnosis means and the stigma that they're associating with it. So I would say where our world is right now, probably not.

But I like applaud this person for like truly modeling acceptance. And I just think the rest of the world isn't ready for it. And that doesn't make it right. But I think what we can do is what are other ways that we can model acceptance that maybe are a little less direct, or what are ways that we can model acceptance that are going to be.

Feel more supportive, and I think social media is a hard one. I probably would just say don't comment on it because we don't know everyone's story, but say like you're at the park with a family, I love coming at this like one just starting to integrate language around neurodiversity.

So if you have a kid being like, yeah, this is how her brain things. Yeah, she's really good at this. She needs more support in this area. Start modeling some of that language to normalize it. And I think also if you're willing as a parent to be vulnerable and share where your child has support needs. Then when you ask that parent of what about for your son?

What would you say? Are some of the things more challenging for him? That parent might then in turn start to be like he is autistic. Like you've opened the door for them. But I also think that, you can say like, I think you can ask questions of yeah I noticed he gets really happy what are some of those things, right?

Or even just describing the behavior. Oh, he jumps up and down when he's happy. I love that. I know exactly what he likes. What are other things we can do so that to make sure he's really happy in our house type of thing? So I think those are some more indirect ways, but  I wish I could answer it. Like part of me is cringing right now because I wish I could answer yeah, of course it's fine.

I just think it's an example of where our world isn't quite there yet, but I hope we get there. I really truly do. And I think these conversations are opening the door for that to happen.  

Yeah. And it makes me think So there's a Swedish journalist author, Claire Thornval, I've recently spoke to her, and she has a book coming out where the whole book is a perspective flip, and she's written an article, and, but it's basically, it's like, there's nothing wrong with you that you're neurotypical, you were just born this way, so it's taking all the way that we normally see Transcribed  Neurodivergent people talked about and just applying it to neurotypicals, and it makes me in that same  thread of, seeing a child at the playground and going, Oh, is he neurotypical?

It's no parent, I don't think would get offended  by that. So it really is. It's 

awesome. Comes into play. Absolutely. 

Yeah, that ableism that and you know what Okay. Even those of us that, like for myself, are late realized, late diagnosed,  there is a lot of internalized ableism that you've got to deal with. And on that, for those of us that are on this journey, that maybe we have gone down several rabbit holes and educated ourselves and perhaps might be doing it with children,  is it ever okay to suggest to a friend who you know their child well,  that you think that they might have? some autistic traits? 

I think so. I think if it's done with compassion and curiosity, so not going in and being like, I know, but rather opening the door for a conversation and being okay to that parent might not be ready to hear it. And and that has to be okay with you too. So do some self like reflection of You bring this up, they shut you down.

Are you going to be able to handle that? Because that is their, they're allowed to do that, right? And as parents, I think parents I see this all the time, like mama or papa bear comes out and is fiercely protective. So this is where, again, the compassion and the curiosity, if you can do it in that way, I think, absolutely.

I've heard parents say The, a conversation like that was the turning point in getting their kid, the support. So I've heard some really positive things, but I think do it gently, if that makes sense. I also love this idea of, asking permission before you do it, which might sound like, huh, what does that mean in this situation?

But it's like almost like a primer question of Hey, like there's something I've been wondering, would you be willing to have an open conversation right now? That might be a little difficult, and even saying, listen, if you don't have the capacity, we can table this for another time because you might also just catch this person in the wrong day of the week, the wrong time.

And it's not that they don't want to have the conversation. So something like that I think can be really helpful. And then pay attention to how they're responding to, right? If you plant the seed and they're not responding, it might be your sign that you just got to give them some more time to let it percolate for them.

So I think compassion and curiosity, if we can approach it in that way, I don't think it needs to be an off limit thing, but I think that relationship is really important in all of this versus again, social media or some random parent at the park, yeah. 

Yeah. Not walking up to people at the park and going Hey, by the way, I think your kid's probably autistic.

Probably won't go over well.  

Yeah. And it's super hard for me. I will say because. I can not not see autism. And so there's people I follow on social media where I'm like, Oh, your kid is. probably autistic, but I would never say that to them or interactions. And it's actually come up in family dynamics before where this is even before my PhD and ultimately this.

This family member ended up getting diagnosed, but we would leave family holidays and I would be say to my mom yep, he's autistic. And my mom would be like, Taylor. I know we talk about this every single time. I'm like but why aren't they getting Their kid help, but they had to go through that process.

And it's interesting. So this is my aunt she'll say now I wish I had done things earlier, but hindsight's 2020 and I don't think coming at it. And actually my mom did try to have the conversation. And it was less so my aunt and more my uncle that just. wasn't ready either. And so again, be okay that someone might not be in the journey of where you are.

And there, and it doesn't make them wrong for having that reaction. Or that doesn't make them  you know, a bad parent either. If you had that reaction at one point and you're like, yeah, I should have known sooner. Like you're not a bad parent. You have emotions in all of this and you're human too.

And so you need to give yourself the grace and the compassion and the curiosity as well.  

Do you have time for one more question? Let's do it.  I'm curious on that with the parent dynamic. What do we do if One parent is all for getting supports, getting a diagnosis, going down that pathway, and the other parent is reluctant.

So 

I do have an episode. I don't remember what it is that kind of breaks this down more. It's one of my earlier episodes though. So like probably teen in the teens. But basically in a similar way, I think you can approach it of Basically, I would ask for permission first to your partner and say, Listen, there's something I've been wanting to talk to you about with our daughter with our son.

Are you open for having that conversation right now? Do you have the capacity to have that conversation? And I think this is often a step that parents miss is it's two ships passing in the night of Hey, I think that's the other parents like no. And so Okay. Cool. making intentional time to have this conversation.

And again, be okay that this other parent might be at a different point of the acceptance journey and the processing journey than you are. You have to remember, this is true even of the diagnosis, say like you've already gotten it. I always say And there are some gender roles that come into play. I find moms are usually the deep divers, the one seeking it out.

And it takes dads a little bit longer. That's not always true. Don't get me wrong, I find, and I say to the moms remember when you first started realizing it, what was that journey like for you? That might be where, your husband is in this. And of course, I'm talking about like a, you know,  heteronormative relationship right here, but regardless of who the partner is, but do you remember when you were there, you got to give them some time to move through this, but having, open intentional conversations about it, being willing to express what you noticed.

without coming at it of I'm right and you're wrong, which I think can be really hard. And especially like when you're wanting to move forward. And I think that a lot of the times too, usually in the relationship, there's a parent, again, a lot of times the mom that does all the like deep dive and wants to go down all the rabbit holes.

And the other parent doesn't do that. What are some helpful resources, like short things that you can give to this other parent of being like, Hey, I listened to this podcast.  There were some things that resonate I'd love for you to listen to this when you get a chance, so that you're not talking at your partner and all of this, but rather letting them do a little bit of the research, but don't overwhelm them either.

And so give them like maybe one to two things.  

And I think to understanding the type of resource that they're likely to engage with if your partner is not a reader, don't suggest two or three books for them to read because it's never gonna happen.  

So true. Yeah, so so true. Yeah, I love that point. 

Awesome. I thank you so much for taking the time. I'll put a couple of your episodes that we referenced in the show notes, as well as just your general podcast, because obviously you're coming out with new ones all the time. So it's Evolve with Dr. Tay, a podcast for parents of autism.