Allow Me to Interrupt - Dr. Gilly Kahn talks diagnostic criteria, "female" ADHD, and her upcoming book

This is part 2 of 2.
Listen to PART 1 "Navigating ADHD & Motherhood"
 
Dr. Gilly Kahn shares stories from her clinical experience with neurodivergent individuals. We discuss the difference between male and female brains and she shares what she'd like to include in the diagnostic criteria to make diagnosis more inclusive and comprehensive.

Lastly, she gives more information about her upcoming book "Allow Me to Interrupt".

Dr. Kahn is a Clinical Psychologist, ADHD educator and advocate (and ADHDer), as well as author and currently writing her first book "Allow Me to Interrupt" (due out 2026).

Books mentioned:
"Asper Kids Secret Book of Social Rules" by Jennifer Cook
"How to ADHD" by Jessica McCabe

Podcast: "Psychology of Video Games" Ep 90

More from Dr Gilly Kahn
https://www.drgillykahn.com/
IG: @DrGillyKahn

Thank you for listening!

If you like this episode please share, rate, review, and subscribe.
Each time you do our little community grows. 

25% off Premium Membership for LetterLife https://letterlife.se/en/samattemptsmotherhood/

Learn more about: INTENTION Group Coaching

Disclaimer: I am not a doctor, medical professional, or mental health professional.
I am sharing my lived experience. If you relate to any of the content in these episodes, do your own research and speak to a medical professional if needed.
There are free resources available in my links:
 https://linktr.ee/samattemptsmotherhood

If you enjoyed this episode please share, subscribe, rate, and review. Each time you do our little community grows.

Follow Sam:
https://www.tiktok.com/@samattemptsmotherhood
https://www.instagram.com/samattemptsmotherhood/

Follow the podcast:
https://www.instagram.com/attemptingmotherhood.pod/

For more information and resources head to: https://linktr.ee/samattemptsmotherhood

Buy me a coffee (an opportunity to show appreciation for the content you've enjoyed).

Transcript

 This is part two of my interview with Dr. Gilly Kahn, if you have not gone back to listen to part one, Go ahead and listen to that as well. 

In part, when we talk more about her motherhood journey, her understanding and discovery, and that she has ADHD in this one, we will talk more about her clinical experience, her upcoming book, which is allow me to interrupt if that's not just the most perfect name for an ADHD book. She is a clinical psychologist. 

She practices in the Atlanta area and she loves working with fellow neurodivergence. So if you're in that area, I'm going to put all of her details in the show notes.

 We're jumping right in to part of the conversation where we're talking about one of her former clients, obviously anonymously.

Who is a young girl and the family suspected she was ADHD. And the psychologists they originally took her to did not agree. Listen to this story. 📍      

it's surprising to me also, and I've seen this too. Like for example, there was one family where they were convinced their kid had ADHD and they had her assessed by a psychologist who only gave questionnaires.  So she gave a questionnaire to the teacher and then she gave a questionnaire to the parents and of course the parents rated the child very high on ADHD symptoms, and then the teachers did not.

So because of that she said she doesn't have ADHD. So then they come to me  for therapy. They're like, Oh, she has anxiety,  but we also think she has ADHD, but the psychologist said no. I start working with her and I also, I just really trust parents  because  parents are with their kids. 

All the time, the psychologist is not so if they still are stuck on this, I'm like, there might be something here. And, I'm working with her and she's pretty spacey and. I, and I say from what you're describing from what I've observed, I don't think it would be like, whack to think that she might have ADHD.

It's still a possibility and, yes.  A girl could be anxious, but she could also have ADHD at the same time. And just giving questionnaires is  not enough. Especially if, the parents rate a child like that highly. So anyway, so I recommend, get a second opinion, go do someone, go see someone who's actually going to give like a continuous performance test, like a CPT, which will assess their actual attention.

And An objective way  and at least in that moment,  and so they decide a lot of families are like this. We're going to save money. Let's just go back to this person we saw before, and we'll ask for an update from her.  But then obviously that can go wrong because that person wants to validate whatever they initially said. And so she ended up giving more questionnaires.  Let's give a second round to the teachers, right? This is like a year later. The teachers and the parents, and of course it comes back the same. And so she says no. No ADHD. So I'm just like, okay, good. Now that you've paid this person more money,  take the rest of your money and go to someone else, 

but it's true because also We see, especially in girls, because there are sex differences, that  masking happens from  such an early age, like preschool sometimes, to where  we understand Okay, I am not quote unquote allowed to act this way. I need to mask. I need to shut my natural tendencies down, which then also can mean that at home, they're even more out of control because they're in a safe space and they're able to fill that sensory cup and let everything out and just, for lack of a better term, go wild.

When it's school, it is not uncommon for the teachers to be like,  Yeah. Like they just sit there and they're chill and whatever. And it's yeah. Have you looked at the doodles? Have you like 

seen them looking out the window?  Yeah. But also it's not even necessarily like that. Like I remember for me, I was always behind, like cognitively, like one step behind whatever everyone was doing and it was embarrassing, but I would figure things out, like I remember in computers class.

I remember I.  I still stunk at, stink at like technology, but I remember sitting next to people and like looking at what they were doing because I could not follow along. Like I just couldn't be at the same pace because she was moving too fast. And. Or I would ask people, like I would ask people next to me, can you help me?

Or, and then I would catch up. And for whoever's listening, if you have not read the book, the female brain, like you have to read it. And girls just the way that their brains are wired, like they're just a lot more socially skilled 

than 

boys from an early age. Yes. Yeah. Just if you look at just like brain functioning and structure, like girls are just, they're more controlled, especially in social situations and they're like evolutionary explanations for that.

So yeah, it's going to be a lot less obvious.  In the classroom, but that doesn't mean they're not suffering and then they come home where they know their family loves them and I see this even with teens like older teens and they lose it like completely lose it on their parents and their parents are extremely overwhelmed.

So it's debilitating. What you're seeing in the classroom is not necessarily reflective of what's happening at home. But anyway, yeah, so they went and they did it. Finally, they did the retesting. They got her diagnosed. They got her on medication. All was good. But And did they go back to the 

original psychologist and wave the paper in their face and say you really need to update your methods?

 No, yeah, but that's, I think it goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning where people say that, oh yeah, we can test for ADHD, we can treat ADHD and then, it's too bad. Yeah. And it's too bad. It's really, and I often stress this to families because they're very money conscious as they should be.

And so am I. And I, I'll tell them like this person accepts insurance, there's a long wait list, but just wait and  or, and they'll say, Oh, but I found this other person and and I say, ask them what tests they're going to give to assess for autism. Because most of the time they'll say, no, they're not autistic, but they don't assess them the right way, or they don't have years of experience working with these kids.

Like I had one family where the kid came in with a diagnosis of like conversion disorder, what's it called? Functional neurological syndrome. Because she had stimming and tics but  suspected autism was, like, so obvious to me.

But if, it's hard, it's it's a spidey sense.  

It is, and I think, too, it's one of those things Once you're aware, once you know the subtle, nuanced things to look for, then it becomes obvious. And to someone who isn't as informed, who doesn't know those things, it's not going to be so obvious, but I think too often, and clinicians and practitioners are also in this, they only think of someone who's autistic as very,  I don't even want to say typical.

But like, the culturally, what some people's first minds come to as autistic is someone who's like much higher support needs, someone who has very obvious stimming.  When really, it can be much more subtle. It can be much more masked and controlled. Especially if you're seeing someone who maybe isn't in the most accepting family.

I don't know how to say that. But like, yeah, like I always say there's still a lot of stigma, yeah, in the family, not even just stigma. But like with me, I always say because like with attachment theory, do you know much about? Oh yeah. Yeah. So I have a parent who's  avoided attachment.

And I was not allowed to have emotions as a child, so me, 'cause I'm autistic, A DHD.  My like saying that I have come up with is that like when you don't allow a meltdown, it becomes a shutdown. And so when I wasn't allowed to have meltdowns as a kid,  they turned into shutdowns. And still now in my mid thirties, I am trying to correct course.

I don't like having meltdowns. It may be a slightly more cathartic than a shutdown. And at least now in my life situation, it helps my partner better understand instead of me just going 

yeah yes. I literally had a session recently where I coached the family and I was just like, You need more physical touch.

Like I was like hugs, right? Hugs. Say, I love you. That's what girls with ADHD need  when they're emotional. You need someone who unconditionally, even if you're a biatch, excuse my language is going to love you. And then that helps. That's what I learned, with my daughter.

When she loses it, she just needs unconditional positive regard. And then it's moving on.  

Yeah. Yeah. We had this yesterday. We were somewhere that was very stimulating and  we were there too long. We didn't have enough food. All the factors came into place in that. My daughter was a bit overstimulated and we, I talk openly about that with her.

So at some point we were there with her little friend and we'd been there a couple of hours. She was starting to get a bit more  with, with him. And I was like, baby, are you getting a little overstimulated? And she was like, yeah. And so I was like, okay. And we ended up being there a bit longer.

Anyways, when we came home, she lost it. She was, like, kicking the back of the car seat in front of her. She didn't want to get out of the car. She just went  feral  for a little bit in the car. And I was like, hey, had to end up bringing her kicking and screaming in the house.

She had some moments where I was like, Hey baby, like I'm here.  I know you're upset. I know you're really overstimulated. You're super tired. And then once she calmed down, I got us some crunchy snacks.  We just chilled out. And then she literally just wanted me to cuddle her and hold her for like the next two hours.

And she instinctively knew that she was like, I need a cuddle. And then she did not want me to like, not have my arms wrapped around her.  And it's I feel like,  As ADHD people,  we do instinctively know those things, but over our lives, too often, we're told to turn them off or shut them down or not ask or not say or  basically mask.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or people will say what's wrong with you? There's the, fundamental attribution error, which I just latch onto and talk about all the time because it's so true. People will just tack  the problem onto the person and they'll say, this is a melodramatic person, or this is, this person is completely dysregulated it's a, it's a personality issue.

Yeah. Instead of looking at it from a compassionate lens this person is suffering, right? They need support. 

Yeah. And It's hard. I don't know your upbringing, but with my daughter and it, my upbringing was not all bad, but just, emotions weren't allowed. But with my daughter, I'm doing like everything I can to not  have all of that put on her and to normalize talking about being overstimulated, talking about okay these are things we can do to regulate ourselves, which I think so many in our  generation, I guess you could say that's the work we're doing also on ourselves, which like, Yes. 

Yes. Yeah. No, me too. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. It was hard for me because I lost my mom when I was four, so I was basically grew up, with my dad and my brother  and I didn't even know what a period was when I got one.  Oh my gosh. Yeah, so that was a, an interesting experience. I thought something else was in my underwear.

I did not think it was a period because I didn't know. I did not know what a period was.  

That's the thing though, like if no one's ever talked to you about it, and you're going to be like, I'm dying. What's going on? 

Yeah. Yeah.  Yeah, I was in middle school. Yeah. And I was in school. It was very weird  to say the least. 

It's an interesting story. But anyway yeah. Yeah, it was hard for me. The other thing is like my dad, I think it was pretty similar. First of all, he's not a mom, and, And he didn't know how to deal with emotions like in college, I'm like an adult, there was a situation where something happened with a teacher I really cared about.

And she got in trouble for something she did for me, like it wasn't anyone's fault, but I felt like it was my fault. So when I. And he talked, the first person I call is my dad. So I call him and I'm sobbing and he says to me, Gilly, I can't understand when I understand you while you're crying, stop crying and then call me back.

Practical, but it's too, like they just, they feel so uncomfortable. They don't know how to comfort or how to deal with those uncomfortable emotions in themselves that it's like, Yeah. Okay, you shut that down and then you call me when you've got yourself together. Yeah. 

Yeah. But the reason I'm calling you is because I'm not together, so then I called my stepmom. She called me down and then I called my dad. 

Yep.  

Yep. 

I'm familiar.

It's really tough. Yeah, but you're right. It's like we are learning how to, fix things from our past.  At the same time that we're trying to not replicate a lot of that stuff with our kids and also integrate things from, our parents generation that was good, just, I think the laid back nature, of the breastfeeding, like my mother in law, for instance, she didn't breastfeed.

And so I remember. If I didn't have her, honestly, I think I would have been a very confused human being because she told me like, Gilly, if it's overwhelming to you, just don't do it. Yeah. It's not worth it.  Yeah. And she was the only one who really had that perspective. And But I think, it's a generational thing.

It's a cultural thing. There's so many things 📍   



If the criteria was rewritten,  what are like two or three things that are not included and not emotional regulation, because we all know that should be included, but are not included that you think should be included to be a bit more like comprehensive and, 

yeah. Sensory issues. 



Because that's big that, I had no clue about, I'm definitely very sensitive to like tight clothing.

I can't stand them. I don't understand how anyone wears them and I can't concentrate  if they're on me or like social situations, my battery like runs low very quickly 

and 

it feels like I'm drowning. I'm drowning.

So yeah, sensory sensitivities, I think should be on there just like with autism and sleep issues,  I think should at least have a mention  emotion dysregulation, which is what my book is about. And like rejection sensitive dysphoria as a part of that.  And I think also the other thing I noticed is, sorry, tangents, that's what you get, with an ADHD guest, but I noticed in the criteria for major depressive disorder, there's suicidal thoughts.

And then for ADHD,  there isn't really a whole lot about cognition. I don't think there's anything. It's all behavior. Yeah. So I'm just like, it's all based on 

Eight year old little white boys.  

Right, but 

observational, Observational, behaviors, things you could see, right? Oh, spacing out, looking out the window.

That's like the stereotype, right? But I could, look at you and I'm not really listening to what you're saying. That happens to me half the time in conversations. 

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.  And then you're like, Oh God, do I like say something that I heard three minutes ago because I haven't heard anything or do I just try and pick up what they're saying now?

Yeah. 

And you learn, how to deal with that. Like reflections help me because they make me, during therapy I reflect, I repeat some of what the person says, not only because it's a therapy skill, because it helps me pay attention. 

 Yeah, so sensory issues, sleep issues I would say we need something that's a little bit more specific to impulsivity in adulthood addictive behavior,  and then include examples.

Like body focused repetitive behaviors are included under the obsessive compulsive and other related disorders, I think. But  they're so common, like for people with ADHD and that's because we're sensory seeking. That, or, substance use gambling, oh my god, video gaming, 

like That's what I was just gonna say, it's like, I like struggle to mention this because it's gonna be like, well then everyone would have ADHD, but mindless scrolling?

Oh, yeah, yes. My partner who's ADHD, , it is the biggest friction point in our relationship, especially in parenthood. You Of he almost is never not with his phone, and it's just shit, random shit, he's looking at it doesn't, and  I'm slightly strict with my daughter with the iPad, and if she's watching something, I don't want her to, I say you're watching weird stuff, I don't want you to,  and she now says, Daddy watches weird stuff,  because she'll see his phone, and it's just I don't know the wormhole, rabbit hole things, he goes on Instagram Explorer page, like I don't even know.

But I know that's what it is. It's sensory seeking behavior. But I think that is one way because As adults more often than not, we have our phone and that is the easiest way for someone to just quickly get that little dopamine buzz. 

Yeah. The other dopamine nation. Yes. Yeah. Because, and.

And also, I actually, I recorded a podcast. It was the first podcast I ever recorded. I think but it was with Psychology of Video Games  with, yeah, Jamie Madigan. And I talk about this stuff with him because I've had clients who were legit addicted. Addicted. I see, I've seen videos of them.

And I think people really underestimate it and I think a big problem in our society is the fact that we normalize these things are like, Oh, girls, they like shopping, but that is not okay. Sometimes, when you get your 

paycheck and you go shopping and you don't have money for rent because you're like, Oh, that felt.

Good for five seconds to go out and buy more stuff. I don't 

need going to debt or, the fact that it's so accessible. And the same thing with video games. Oh, he's just a teenage boy.  No when you're trying to separate the kid from this thing, and it's like you're trying to remove a drug,  it's a problem, 



When it's getting them kicked out of school,  it's a problem,  and it's related to ADHD.

It's not because they have no self control.  It's because they're not being Like their symptoms are not being managed in the way that they need to be, and there's a grander, like societal problem with, I don't know if you've you've looked into like stuff about video games recently with loot boxes.

Do you know what those are? 

No. 

Oh, you're going to have I'm not like a 

gamer. I don't know what like a  

I didn't either. I didn't know what it was. And then I, like I would have teens like tell me, I'm like, what do you like about video games? And then it led me to this and that led me to his podcast and I learned about it.

But  loot boxes are, I think they might be illegal in a few places now, but they're basically gambling machines for teens  in video games. What? What? Yes. Yes. , so characters in video games have like skins, which are like different outfits or like different tools, like guns and stuff, weapons that they can use.

And they have the players pay real money for them. So like teens will either ask their parents, there's like Robux for Oh, that I've heard of.  Yeah. So it's like a version of that.  But the problem then is, teens will steal credit cards and do whatever they can to buy these things.

So there's the buying the objects. Okay, fine. That's like the shopping component,  but then there's the gambling component because  you get like mystery lollipops when you're a kid and you're just like, Oh, what flavor is it going to be? It's like that. Only with real money.

So they'll have, like a treasure chest and they'll say, you might be able to get either what's behind door number one, door number two, or door number three. And the only way you can find out what you can get is if you pay.  Oh my God.  Yes. So they'll pay. And then if, and if you watch on YouTube, like what it looks like, it sounds like a slot machine which are all, 

there's like a whole psychology behind that.

Like slot machines and, think of Vegas and stuff like, and here, so in Australia, I know it's different in America, but in Australia.  Gambling's legal. It's not, how do I say, segregated the way it is in the states where you can only do it in certain states or certain areas. But here, online gambling, there's all these different apps and stuff.

But it's of course real money.  They now have where you can do it like with your friends. You can bet against your friends They have ones where you can just that bets  like I bet you can't do blah blah blah and your friends can like Create a pool but also for sports betting or everything else and it's so accessible because it's through an app So you just have to click like yeah, I'm 18  and then  you know, you're racking up someone's credit card 

But I had no idea about these  loot boxes on video games.

Yeah. But are you 

surprised? Think about cigarettes. No, not at all. We've got flavored cigarettes and I think the way I wrote about it in my book is I don't know if I even wrote this. Maybe it was just an idea in my head. But I was thinking, like, when you go into a grocery store, like, all the sugary cereals are at eye level of the kids and it's I don't know what's wrong with adults?

I don't know. It's manipulative. Yeah. But it's a way of sneaking an, you know, an addictive substance  into something that seems friendly and like child friendly, and And like 

a bit of harmless fun, but like really. Harmless, yes. It's not. Yeah. So we've mentioned a few times your book. Let's talk a bit more about it.

I don't know if it's the working title or if it's the, It is. The decided, oh, okay. Allow Me to Interrupt. 

Yes, I hope it stays though, 

because 

I 

like it. 

I like it too.  

Tell the publisher, you're very strong headed, tell the publisher that's what you want.  And, especially for a book about ADHD, like it is,  it's perfect.

Except we don't normally ask, we just do it, and then occasionally apologize after the fact, most of the time not.  

But that's the irony of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's the fact that we're girls, right? With the Masking  excuse me. Allow me to interrupt.  

Yeah. Yeah. Let me, take up some space, which we're not very comfortable with a lot of the time. 

Yeah. So how did the book come about? So I have been wanting to publish a book. In the field of psychology since I was 14 and then, what it would be about. Basically, it all fizzle to the surface with, my diagnosis and my experiences. So I decided to make it about ADHD and I also, while I was teaching myself.

More about ADHD and females. I realized there's really a need in the area and especially work on emotions  and females with ADHD. So that's what led me here. And now it's like a  bubbling  subfield because everyone is submitting, ideas for  like book ideas. And it's a good thing, because people are going to have a lot more resources and there was clearly a need  so my book is about the emotional component, emotion, dysregulation, and females with ADHD, rejection, sensitive dysphoria it's a memoir slash.

Self help slash like just academic educational book. So I talk about my experience and then I also include tips. For emotion regulation, motivation, because motivation has a lot to do with emotions. And then, yeah, and then I have a chapter, I actually initially called it like Your Brain on ADHD, and I just changed it to Our Body.

On ADHD because it's, your brain does not exist in a vacuum. So I talk about like hormones and that's like a whole book in itself. I know. I know. I'm really struggling with that chapter. I like breeze through like chapters one through three and they look great. And now I'm on four and I'm just like,  and then it's like making it. 

Understandable. I want to make it readable. And so today I really went back and I tried to change the formatting  to make it just, just more appealing  because I personally don't pick up books.  

Yeah, 

same. So I, if it's, if I'm going to be selling paper copies, like you need to be able to read it.

And it's funny too, because as someone with ADHD, it's like, for example, I love Jennifer Cooks. Book, the Asper Kids secret book of social rules and it's written for teens, but I love it. And it's because the font is pretty big, it's a lot of spacing between the words she has got bullet points, there's a picture here and there and it's embarrassing to say because you're like, oh, this is a book for teens, but this is the only book that can get me to sit down and read it.

 If it's attractive, then you're going to read it. It's that thing of it's set in so many different things. I'm like, what's the best type of exercise? The exercise you're actually going to do, what's the best type of book formatting and font.

And well, the one that you're actually going to read. And if you know your demographic, your audience struggles with if I could tell you the amount of books on my shelf that I have started, but not finished,  like almost Every book I own, almost. I, it, to the point that it feels like this rare, golden achievement when I actually finish a book.

Yeah. Because it never happens. Because They're too dense. That's it. They're like, quote unquote, adult, and because most of them are like, heavy,  like you said, dense topics. Every page looks the same. They look the same, and it's it's a lot of information and information. So I'm then trying to like, take it all in and yeah, if you're making something that's appealing,  I know there's like page number golden rule things as far as having it this many pages and this many, and then there's also like a monetary issue with making a book X big versus X big.

But if you can have a larger font,  maybe it means you have to write a second book, maybe.  But if it means people are actually going to read it, That is the accomplishment  instead of having something that someone might buy and then sits on their shelves and is not actually helping people. 

Yeah.

Or like for example, like the book that I would recommend to people because there aren't a whole lot of resources out there. That are like, I think like colloquial, but like really understandable. I think by just the general public, they're mostly written for professionals, but I really liked the book ADHD 2. 0, but even I have to, and I had, didn't actually read it with it, like a,  Physical book. I have the audible version. So I need to listen over and over and over again, like sometimes to understand some of the chapters, especially like the more like scientific, brain based ones. So I can only imagine what someone who's not in the field experiences when they see something like that.

They're just okay, next.  And I don't want that. To happen with my book. I want them to be able to understand and enjoy reading it. You know what you should do with your audio book  

because you're going to have an audio book? Sound effects. Sound effects. Keep it interesting. Like every time a chapter starts or every time there's like a little footnote or something, it'll be like,  or like something that's Oh yeah, I'm paying attention. 

Yes. Yep. So the book that I bought  that made me think four times about this is how to ADHD by Jessica McCabe.  She's amazing. Amazing. Amazing. The way that she formatted everything. And she, she has ADHD, but she doesn't have a degree.  In psychology or mental health or anything, but she has got it down the spacing in the book and there are things you don't even think about, like the  saturation of the font, she's got like little as if someone took notes.

In the book that's lighter, right? And I'm not gonna say my book is not gonna be, like, exactly like hers. But I want it to be readable like hers. 

Yeah. I'm a big fan of that um, something in the margins or like a little yes, different colored box somewhere on the page where I'm like, okay, what's this like point they're highlighting or what's the gist?

Yeah. Yeah.  Ooh, I'm so lucky. So did you shop it to publishers or did you have someone  contact you? Like, how did The baby come to fruition. 

Yeah, so it's when you're a psychologist and you're not like in the writing world, you have no freaking clue what you're doing.

And also you have a full time job. And children 

and a husband and.  

Yeah. So it was. not easy, but I basically spent most of my time just first of all, like sifting through, I love listening to things. So on YouTube, I found someone who talks to like, new authors or like aspiring authors, and she basically post these videos just like, you know, Jessica McCabe does for ADHD like explaining like the very beginning phases. 

If you want to publish a book, she says, what's the difference between traditional and self publishing? And, what are the steps that go into that? And she throws in resources and all of that.  It was slow from the  time that I decided to publish to.  Like the book deal. It was like nine months.  

Yeah. And you did decide. So you are with an actual publishing house. You're not self publishing, 

right?

Yeah. 

Yeah.  

Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be with postal press  and it's a dog eat dog world out there. That's how it is. With writing, with publishing, I just, I remember studying creative writing and it's really,  it's a hard field to be in. And that's why I picked psychology as my primary because it's, very subjective and a lot of it is I think based on luck and timing and it's about casting a wide net and not giving up. 

Yeah. And you have a tentative date for the book.  

Yeah. So my full draft is due in November. And then at that point they are going to revise. We're going to work on formatting and all of that. So I'm guessing it will be out in 2026.  Because most 

people might not know. To get a book printed actually takes a long, it's not like a, it's a lot of work.

Yep. Cool. Let's just do that. It is quite a lot of work. It is a long process.  

Yes. And . I'm a perfectionist. I want it to be good. And for it to be good, you need to have a lot of people looking at it. You need to be spending a lot of time working on it and thinking through the idea and then looking at other people's work and then coming back to your book and changing things.

And Publishers are machines,  publishing houses are machines devoted to making your book like the best it could possibly be. And,  if you're going to spend so much time on writing a book, it should be like the best that you can make it, that you can make it, 

absolutely. And. They believe in you, obviously, they've invested in you, and they are willing to put money behind to pay all of this, to pay the copywriter, to pay everyone to make it exactly perfect. But I will, as a fellow perfectionist,  just offer this, that go into it with  having a second book in mind.

Not that it has to be perfect, but that You're always going to find new information. You're always going to have new ideas. You're always going to want to include and make it the best and make it more. And in the editing process, you're going to have to get rid of some stuff. Unfortunately, that's just how it goes.

So  go into all of those processes thinking like maybe that's for my second book. Maybe that's for my second book. Instead of,  I think too often it's like holding ourselves back. And  there's this What would you call her? Habits author called Gretchen Rubin  that she has the saying of don't let perfect be the enemy of good. 

And we really struggle as perfectionists to like, let good be good enough. And you're going to want it to be the best and amazing and it will be, but  there's always going to be.  Oh, if I just did that one thing, if I just included that one thing, if I just,  it's true, give yourself permission to like that one thing can go in my second book. 

Yeah. Yes, it's true. Yeah. No, I get stuck. And then it's like, you're like, Oh, it's great now. And then you go back to it, like a month later, and you're like, Nope.

 I'm usually like, I don't know, like a perfectionist. I feel like this is probably also common, but I'm usually a perfectionist until I can't be anymore. And then I'm like, Scrambling. That's how it was with my dissertation. That's how it was with my master's thesis.

And then it's oh my god, this is so good. And then you get to the end and you're just like, who took this down?  

Yep. Sorry. You reach the like, I have no other way to describe it, but like you reach the fuck it point where you're like, yeah, okay, I've just got to get it done and 

here you go. 

Yeah, the discussion section. It takes the brunt of right. That's the end of a research article.   

 We've gone totally off script, but I like that. And I think it's very on brand for  ADHD conversation. 

Yeah,  I really enjoyed this  

so tell everyone where they can find you and stay up to date on your,  

So you can learn more about me on my website, drgillykahn.Com.  Or on my Instagram page at Dr. Gilly Khan. And I will, definitely include updates every now and then, and you can look out for, more publications and stuff. I'm going to have a magazine article that I'm very proud of coming out soon about ADHD and women. And do you have a email list that people 

can sign up for? 

Yes, 

I do. Yeah. On my website. Perfect.  I'll include everything in the show notes and yeah, thanks so much. I've had a blast. 

Yeah. Me 

too.