Smarter Growth with Design Thinking

On this one I was very pleased to be joined by @Jon Reay and @Tim Seddon, the Co-Founders OF @Room 42, a start-up that facilitates effective change and innovation through the use of Design Thinking based programmes, to help businesses tackle the most challenging of live business problems.

I really enjoyed this conversation with Jon and Tim where we dived into how they went on the journey to start Room 42 and specifically how they have seen Design Thinking used to improve Financial Performance.

🌟 Some of my favourite parts of our conversation were:

✅ How, if you can break up and disrupt day to day thinking, it provides the opportunity to inspire different interactions that can be the key to unlocking new thinking and ideas;

✅ How, if you get the right direction of travel, with a small team, Design Thinking can offer opportunities for small businesses to leapfrog larger competitors;

✅ Having a CFO or Finance professional within any change management program from the outset is really critical to help projects succeed more quickly;

✅ Their experience of imposing change top down, leads to a demotivated business that's struggling to adapt to change, while engaging with everyone leads to a much more highly motivated and agile business;

✅ How one of my favourite books, Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy helped inform both their company name and their approach to business.

Transcript

Adam (00:04.775)

Okay, so today I'm here with John and Tim, the founders of Room 42, which is a business setup to use design thinking based programs to help businesses tackle the most challenging of live business problems. John, Tim, welcome to the Fractional CFO show. How are doing?

Tim (00:26.497)

Very good.

Jon Reay (00:27.66)

Good thanks, good to be here Adam.

Adam (00:30.355)

Excellent, good to have you here, good to have you here. And so today we're going to dive into design thinking and financial performance. And I guess to start with, would you mind giving us a bit of an overview of how you went from the world of digital agencies to starting Room 42? A little bit of the journey would be great.

Tim (00:52.705)

Well, if I jump in there with, for me, it's really a personal journey. 25 years trying to find an answer to how to be more effective as a manager. know, and, you know, I'm a little bit of an introvert, to be honest. And, you know, I started off my career, you know, being this sort of thinker and planner.

and coming to the table with a lot of the answers, you know, thought free from as many different perspectives as I could in order to feel that I was sort of adding value in the mix. you know, that's great. And that gets you a certain amount of distance. But really, the higher up the ladder you go, you realise the more it's about bringing people along the journey. And, you know, you can have a great idea. You might even be right.

but unless you've got the buy-in of teams and people, then you're not gonna really achieve what you wanna do. And likewise, you also realize when you're working in quite multi-disciplined businesses that you're not gonna have the answer yourself. That really is about trying to uncover.

the insights that sit within a whole range of different people with different experiences and backgrounds and skills. And design thinking for me has sort of been part and parcel of trying to hone my skills and being better at doing that.

Jon Reay (02:32.398)

I would say from my perspective, I've been a strategist in digital agencies primarily and I've got my own business doing that work. So I'm used to sort of helping people to solve their problems when the challenge is digital. But actually digital, even though a lot of the world is turning around digital challenges, there are lots of other challenges out there.

And I felt that I could apply what I know to be more relevant to those other challenges. So whether that's about trying to make a more financially viable business, reduce costs, grow performance profitability, those kind of things, I found that we can solve those as well. And that's what we'll talk a little bit more about today.

Adam (03:27.785)

Okay, great. And I guess to start with, you've both mentioned there and obviously the title of the show is about design thinking. It would be great to get a definition from your perspective for those in the audience who haven't come across or just in case you're talking about it from a slightly different perspective of what design thinking means to you in the concept of your business.

Tim (03:50.721)

Yeah, I think sometimes people have had a limited exposure to an event or something. They might think of design thing as a of, it's a sort frivolous, know, it's a day out team building exercise thing, or, know, where everyone sort of gets around, you know, playing charades or something like that. I mean, it's absolutely not that in the context of our business. Really what it's about is about

it's taking a group of people, getting a group of people together and getting rid of all of the barriers that get in the way of effective communication. And, know, for example, that might be, you know, your default pigeonhole in terms of the role that you have, your job title, or the fact that you're within a certain department and you're working in that small environment.

Or it might be, you know, hierarchy and, know, a bit of a worry about some speaking up because you might, you know, whether or you're judged on what your thoughts might be if they don't necessarily align with your boss. Or, you know, it could be about levels of introversy, you know, and the loudest voice in the rooms is often the one that's heard.

What we're about first of all is totally trying to break down those barriers and get everyone on a level playing field and feeling comfortable. And then taking everyone on a journey through a process. And the process for us involves lots of deconstruction of the problem as a group, divergent ideation exercises.

reframing exercises to think of things from different angles and then convergent exercises where as a team you're trying to work out which ideas you're to take forward and which ones are the important ones. And the idea is to solve problems, And where we found it really effective is two fundamental

Tim (06:16.105)

requirements for most businesses these days, one of which is to come up with new ideas and innovate, right? And the other one is to build advocacy and take people with you for change. And that fundamentally for us is how design thinking sits. And you you've got processes like we've been developed by MIT, which is systematic and repeatable, and they take

Adam (06:23.997)

I think we've lost Tim there.

Tim (06:44.725)

They take you on a big journey from identifying latent needs through to prototyping, or you've got simple problems which are building levels of understanding and stuff within teams that they can get on board with what's going on around them. So design thinking for us is about fundamentally shifting and taking teams on a journey and getting their input and involvement along the way effectively.

Adam (07:12.777)

Okay, great. I guess I think we lost you a little bit there, Tim, but I think it picked up the recording on your end. So we'll just carry on in terms of some of that answer that you gave. I think some of the points you just mentioned regarding, you know, deconstructing the problem, breaking it down, reconverging. I'm very interested to understand how

that can be used from a small business perspective because obviously, you you talk about hierarchy, you talk about different levels and breaking down those barriers. Obviously in a smaller business, I'm interested to understand how design thinking can work when you don't have all of those layers. Is it still a practical model or do you find it works better in a larger environment?

Tim (08:00.481)

I think it works in every type of environment on that because in a smaller environment, they're quite often sort of CEO led. And there's this one powerful voice, the founder who came up with the original idea and everyone's sort of following that. even as a small scale, it's really easy to fall into a status quo around assumption.

So you think this is what people are going to say, or you think that that's going to be how they'll behave or how they'll act. And they might well do under the normal day to day of the business, but if you can try and break that up a little bit, there is the opportunity to inspire different interaction that...

is the key to unlocking new thinking and ideas. But of course, there's that, you you might also need extra stimulus or outside input to help. So, you know, we don't just facilitate, we also bring

specialist subject matters, experts into the mix to help you with specific subjects as well. So there's always ways you can sort of mix and change the dynamic by bringing other people in as well.

Jon Reay (09:29.742)

I would add a couple of points for small businesses specifically. One challenge that small businesses have is you have to wear many hats. You might be the founder or the CEO,

you might also have to do the marketing and sort of be in charge of the finances or what have you. it dilutes effectively your ability to act in all these different areas and you can't be a specialist of everything. So actually getting in some external support but working with you to help you.

be along that journey is something that I think applies a lot more in smaller businesses where you don't have those experts in all the different areas that you need to have them.

Tim (10:19.583)

Yeah, and John, just to add to that. Yeah, so I guess it's not just about outsourcing the problem to somebody else at arm's length, but it's about helping you as a team of people, you know, think of the problem differently and solve the problem yourself, which is really valuable for small businesses.

rather than the ones with big budgets who can go and employ a big agency or something like that to help them with some of the naughty problems they've got.

Jon Reay (11:01.868)

Yeah, sorry, my second sort of consideration for small businesses is actually they can move faster. If you get the right sort of direction of travel and you've got a small team, you're able to move much faster than larger competitors. And that can really offer a lot of opportunities for small businesses. And this approach can really help.

help to sort of leapfrog, if you like, some larger competitors that businesses might be facing.

Adam (11:36.526)

Okay, great. And you mentioned there, John, earlier regarding financial goals like, you know, growing revenue or, you know, improving profitability or cutting costs. Can you give some examples of times where you've had to work with smaller businesses and you've seen tangible financial results from the projects that you've worked on them with?

Jon Reay (11:58.466)

Yeah, so, you know, the starting point is a trigger like that, that, you know, maybe the...

the CEO or the CFO is looking at the finances and maybe you're finding that you can't be as profitable as you used to be because your supply costs have gone up. So, you know, I've helped a number of businesses that have seen that kind of situation and applying this methodology to have a look at different ways in which that problem can be tackled.

can open up completely different avenues that wouldn't have been thought about in the first instance. you know, from a finance perspective, you might just want to reduce your costs and that might be the obvious place to look. But actually, there could be additional revenue sources.

that you're not looking at at the moment or different ways of actually producing products and services that you have that aren't just about going for more cost-effective suppliers but changing the whole operations and mechanics. So these approaches have absolutely opened up completely different perspectives that can achieve the same goal.

but just done in a different way. And if everybody's on that process with it, as Tim said, it's not someone taking all this away and doing it for you, it's involving you in that process, then it really helps businesses to sort of see the value of it and then get the results. And those examples where I've done that have enabled those businesses to have that fresh viewpoint and then apply it and run with it and get the results.

Jon Reay (13:51.648)

accordingly.

Tim (13:52.799)

I think that's a good point that they're helping the businesses go forward with a set of skills that are valuable for the future. mean, in essence, what we're talking about here with innovation and with managing change are business agility. And so, let's say that contemporary business,

in this day and age, is continually evolving and shifting to the change around us, which is quite dramatic. We're not talking about one-off change, right? We're talking about embedding and helping build the skills that allow businesses to keep agile and keep...

evolving and changing to make the most out of what's thrown at them. Whether or not that's gen AI, whether or not that's dealing with sustainability, whether or not that's the DNI, whether or not it's hybrid working, whatever it might be, that's the thing of the day that's causing a requirement to rethink. There is a

you need to basically have a business that can adapt and evolve to it quickly. So what we're helping provide is, there might be an individual specific reason why we're brought in, but the approach and the way that we're helping people understand the power of design thinking, know, helps set the business up for the future to be able to adjust and...

pivot as needed with the things that are evolving around them.

Adam (15:44.285)

Okay, okay, very interesting. And you mentioned there, Tim and John, regarding that this is not an individual, one individual or one outside support that's involved in these changes, but it's bringing everyone in on the process. I'm interested to understand how important it is to bring those kind of diverse stakeholders into the process. But particularly from a financial standpoint where

perhaps that financial expertise varies across functions. you know, trying to bring everyone into a financial project, I know from personal experience, can be good but can also have its challenges. So I'd love to hear some of your experiences and thoughts around bringing everyone into a sort of financial change process where that financial knowledge is greater or lesser in some areas.

Tim (16:41.41)

Well, I think this is a foundation to any...

any real requirement for change or any real innovation, is, you know, what's the driver for it? You know, is it, is it real? Right? Is there, you know, what, what's the tangible thing that's the requirement that you're trying to satisfy? then, you know, what, what it is that you're doing, you know, is it, is it going to be effective in, in, in solving that challenge? And the third bit is, you know, yeah, is it financially viable?

What's the ROI? Have you done an NPV analysis on it? What really are we talking about in terms of investment versus return? missing any one of those steps is going to lead to being less effective than you can be. And so it's really important that people understand the finance.

side of the business as much as the other parts of the business. It's great to come up with an idea, but if no one wants it, it's not going to be adopted. It's great to come up with an idea, but if it's not going to make money for the business in return, that's not going to fly either. So it's really trying to work out how...

as a team, can help each other understand, know, what a fully rounded business case is, you know, rather than a one component blinkered view of what it is that might be. And that's where design thinking again really helps, because you can start with this level of bringing everyone up to the same level of understanding and knowledge.

Tim (18:41.947)

to at least have a point where they understand where they can add value and also be advocates for it to other people as they, you know, you're rolling it out.

Adam (18:53.505)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Reay (18:54.542)

I would add that having those diverse roles across a business, all working on something together, it means it's much more likely to succeed. A lot of problems get tackled by just a part of the business and it falls down.

when you either get to try and get the business case and try and get the sort of approval or the financial approval, or you sort of take it to the operations side of the business and then they sort of say, well, we can't do that. We're not changing how we do things. So you hit all these brick walls. But if you bring everybody along on that journey from day one, it's gonna get that advocacy. You're gonna get people supporting it and it will take it through.

chances of it going through are much, much higher. I think having a CFO or a financial investment in it from the outset is really critical to Tim's point about how, you you're always going to have to answer these questions at some point. Let's get them answered right from the beginning and let's involve the CFO or the financial side from that point. And yeah, you will succeed and more quickly.

Adam (20:15.261)

Mm-hmm. Sorry, Tim. Go for it.

Tim (20:16.71)

But there's, guess, one really important part of this is that where we help is to be the upfront, is to try and help identify who the right people are to be in room. I mean, not everything is, know, decision by committee, And some things are absolutely relevant to design thinking and team-based sort of action.

and other things aren't. And identifying those people who might be pivotal to the project is a really important skill. And that's not just the people who might be advocates from the start, might be the people who might be a little bit against what it might be, that you should bring them in in order that everyone has a level of understanding.

Adam (21:12.447)

Yeah, guess part of the challenge and you mentioned there before Tim about, you know, Gen.ai as an example of one of the types of kind of new ways of thinking, new projects that you would typically work on using design, design thinking. The challenge with that is obviously the unknown, right? So you're asking a small business, you're asking a team to trust in you in identifying that this is something that's needed now rather than waiting, you know.

two years, three years until the outcomes and the costs and the benefits become clearer. So how do you overcome that challenge where you have kind of forward thinking challenges that you need to address that the answer might not be clear to anyone?

Tim (21:56.905)

Well, I think that's exactly the thing, isn't it? I mean, you basically start with that question.

you know, and, you know, get the team together to try and address that challenge. know, given the fact that it's less than certain what the future is in it, you know, how might, you know, what should we be doing about generative AI? You know, and, you what might be the fears or concerns and the opportunities that individually we can see in the team?

You know might exist. I think I think there's a really key point here, which is about To make someone feel valued And if you make someone feel valued that they're gonna be much more Likely to support whatever's going on You know at the very minimum

They need to make sure that they've been given the information to understand why and what. Slightly better than that is you give them the ability to be listened to. And even better than that, you give them the ability to be involved. And if you don't do those things, you're going to have fear of the unknown.

Well, this is going to is I'm going to lose my job. What does this mean for me? You know, you know, and and anything all of this sort of, you know, concern and worry won't

Tim (23:42.773)

bubble its way up and find a release. It will sit being discussed behind the scenes, right? Because that's generally what happens. And it doesn't benefit the business in any way, shape or form. You really need to sort of lance that and sort of help find ways for everyone to engage in and think of what it might mean for them and how they could help and what it shouldn't.

and shouldn't do. And then from that, see how the business can facilitate some of those ideas that come to the fore, rather than impose everything down with lack of information. One leads to a highly motivated agile business, the other leads to a demotivated and a business that's struggling to adapt to change.

Adam (24:26.209)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Reay (24:40.942)

One thing I'll just add there, we help organisations to understand where they are on the maturity journey for any particular topic. So something like generative AI, it might be that the business hasn't really looked at it yet. They don't have a policy, they don't have the skills.

you know, no one's really using it, but they, you know, as Tim says, they might have some fears or whatever. That's fine. You know, that's their starting point. And we wouldn't take them on a journey that's suddenly going to develop them into a, you know, an AI leader right from the outset. And maybe that's not the right answer for them.

but we take them on the journey that involves all the people, has the discussion about it, looks at what would be appropriate for their organization, bring in some external expertise around the subject matter, get everyone a bit more comfortable with it, start them on experimentation, see what works. These are the things that we would help them on.

so that it isn't just this fear thing that they don't want to go near, but they can start in the way that's appropriate for them. And you can change that for any subject. It could be about sustainability, or it could be like Tim says about...

hybrid working policy or what that would mean. So right at the beginning we look at where the challenges and the opportunities are and we guide the company through that at their own pace with all their people along the journey. So that's how we tackle it and we're just trying to break down the barriers.

Jon Reay (26:29.734)

There are always barriers and we're finding the right way to knock them down in a supportive, collaborative way with all the people.

Adam (26:41.385)

Okay, great. And really interested to hear that approach and particularly how you have to take them on the journey and take the whole group and the whole team on the journey and have different starting points and end points as a result of the organizations that you work with. I wondered, we talked about small businesses leveraging external expertise. How do you manage where and perhaps you don't? Do you have a sort of

minimum sized organization that you'll work with. if they don't have the budget, you know, they're looking to do an AI project, they don't have the budget to bring in the necessary expertise. So would you kindly defer or pass it on to another organization or do you work with anyone of any size and you kind of cater to their requirements regardless of their budget or number of people in the organization?

Tim (27:38.025)

Well, there's a few things in there to unpack maybe. The first of all, guess our super target is companies of the size 100 to 1,000 people, right? Where there's this scale and...

and certain size, we're a small consultancy of, it seemed to be three people rather than a super consultancy of thousands. So, we certainly see value in that. However, under a hundred people.

we see a huge opportunity to work with the leadership of businesses, helping them evolve and adapt and pick up new ways of being agile.

We do also offer discounts, quite significant discounts and have offered discounts to companies that have a real purpose around people and planet and charities that we believe in too. so, know, that's, you know, we are prepared to sort of, you know,

where that help is going to have a real positive effect on community or, you know, say people or planet. And so we're working with a charity called Amplify down near Tumbler as well. So it's all around coming up with sustainability initiatives. They've broken the whole sort of area down into sectors that are all looking to share

Tim (29:29.787)

and work out how best within their sector to take sustainability forward. And we're offering sort of 50 % discount into that group and pre programmes as well where we can help out in a few instances. But it is about

It is really about, you know, there's real value in design thinking approaches and business agility.

that dropped to the bottom line of a business. It's not a hard business case to look at where effectiveness damages bottom line or the inability to adapt damages revenue. If you take a subject like sustainability, it's a fantastic one where there's already been an awful lot done to understand the relationship between revenue and bottom line.

and sustainability initiatives. Whether or not that's attracting people, being more effective at attracting people and retaining your staff if you're purpose driven. Or actually the fact that some of the savings that can be made through reduction in energy usage and travel actually have savings to the bottom line, the business as well. Or whether or not they make you more attractive for investment.

You know, they're trying to find out where there's that sort golden relationship between the things that you can do that actually add value to the culture of your business and to the bottom line of your business and the future, so attractiveness of your business is really, really important.

Jon Reay (31:32.928)

I I talked a bit earlier about the value for small businesses. think people are so much more at the heart of a small business and have a huge impact if you haven't got the right people. And bringing all those people on this journey.

has a lot of value in its own right. It helps with retention, it helps with getting the best out of those people and how they can work collaboratively together. the challenge might be seen as a pure financial one in the short term, but the impact on people is huge as well. And I think this is what we encourage businesses to look at.

We recognize as well that to work in this way requires an investment from a lot of people, right? And people in an organization, you got to take everyone out for a day to go through a process like this. That's a big cost for any business, but a small business even more so. So, you know, we sort of talk to people about...

what this means for them and ensure that this is the right way forward for them. It's worth their investment in their people as well as the sort of cost to be involved and the returns that they're likely to get from that. So, you know, we'll always be open to conversations with anyone of any size and if we don't think it's right for us, we will help refer and help to sort of point them in the right direction. But yeah, I

think we can help in a lot more cases than you'd look out on paper perhaps and I think the value that we bring there is huge.

Adam (33:27.709)

And yeah, think that's having the people focus is critical. And I find the same when I'm talking about coming in and doing CFO services. Often we start talking about bottom line and bottom line only. But the reality is that all these decisions impact the people working in the business. And so having that as a primary focus upfront and then throughout makes a whole lot of sense. OK, that's great. And I guess just final question and then I'd like to change tack slightly is, you know, in terms of

If I'm a small business, a small CEO, small business CEO wanting to start on a change management project like this, are there anything that I really need to have in place before I contact a consultancy such as yours or is it just the problem? Do I need some some pre-work, I guess, before I get in touch?

Tim (34:18.465)

Well, I mean, having an idea of what the problem is is a good start. But I mean, you know, I mean, we're there to help. mean, you know, rather than it being a, okay, well, look, you know, we're just going to come in and do this thing with you. You know, we can help do a bit of the deconstruction of the problem with the person to try and really get to the what's the problem really.

and then, you know, sort of, you know, work together to actually formulate the right approach to engaging the people, and then any type of activity that we might do with those people to take them on the journey. so it, you know, is, is, you know, I mean, I guess that there's the, sort of really, you know, we're, looking for people with, with an ambition to change.

or have change baked into their role in some way, or the expectation of what they need to deliver. And then either with the ambition or the sort of mandate, we can then be helpful allies.

Adam (35:35.977)

Okay, great. I like that. What's the problem really? There's the problem that they think is the problem and then the real problem. So that's often the case. Brilliant. Okay, good stuff. Well, changing tack, as I say, onto what I call our business book bonus section. And this is where we ask our guests to provide us with a recommendation for the audience of a business book or to make it easier any business content that you have found helpful during your business careers and would like to recommend. So.

Tim (35:42.561)

Thank

Adam (36:04.63)

What business book or other content would you like to recommend? We'll start with you, Tim.

Tim (36:11.047)

Well, I'm going to be cheeky. I'm going to start off with not a business, but a hitchhiker's guide to a galaxy. Which is...

Adam (36:17.599)

Classic.

Tim (36:19.201)

which is where 42 has come from. You know, the meaning of life, the universe, But I mean, the really important part of that is the reframing. So, you know, what's the ultimate question rather than the ultimate answer? And, you know, a lot of what we're trying to do is trying to sort of reframe things to get people thinking about things in a different way.But no, I think another one is actually the

more serious one. That's sort of broadly where the names evolved from. But there's a guy called John Timpson who runs the Timpson. Well, he used to, son now runs it. But John Timpson, I think I was driving back from Cornwall with my kids in about 2006 and I was running an agency and we were going for a lot of change at the time.

And it was raining and was horrible and we're 11 hours into the journey and the kids had fallen asleep and the wife was asleep and I just snuck on Radio 4. I was far too young for Radio 4 but I snuck it on and John Timpson was on talking about his book that he had just written about upside down management and how he had completely re-looked at the way that the Timpson

business should be run and that rather than the management being a command and control structure down, it was all about the facilitation of the individual franchises with helping them share their successes and their failures with other people and what do they need from the management to help them succeed. for me, was an inspirational moment at that point in the traffic jam on the way back to

on the M25 that I went out and bought this book and then realised that a lot of what he was saying there was really true and the better way to apply being a better manager within businesses.

Adam (38:37.587)

Okay, great. Two very interesting and different books, but I can see how they both inspired where you are today. That's great. Thanks, Tim. And John, what about yourself?

Jon Reay (38:48.174)

I'm going to choose one that I read very recently actually called the Unaccountability Machine by Dan Davies and this is a really interesting concept that the moment you create a corporation or you look at things like the economy or governments, any of these sort of entities, once you start sort of developing processes with them and

know, systems involved in them, they become their own machine, you know, they're separate from individuals and no individual can actually steer them or individually control them. Now, in a very small business, you might think, well, you know, it's just me, I run this business, I control all believers. But as soon as you have like two or three people or four people, then you start to build it up, you can see how

businesses sort of grind to a halt because there's no influence that any individual can have on that. And when you scale it up to governments and the whole economy and so on, you can see how difficult and unwieldy these things are and how they don't change very easily and how unpredictable they are. And it goes on to sort of suggest that all of these entities are actually

artificial intelligences, know, because they have all these sort of systems and processes baked into them and, you know, they're not sort of immediately controllable by anybody. So it goes a little bit dystopian, but it's a business book and it starts from, you know, when you create a corporation, when you create that sort of entity and it's disconnected from people. And it really just brings me back to thinking...

Okay, you've got to get the people back in the business, so that you can have some sense of influence over it and you can kind of help to steer it. And in a small way, that's what we're doing at Room 42. So that would be my book of choice.

Adam (40:58.727)

Excellent, excellent. It sounds fascinating and we'll put links to all those in the show notes for anyone who's interested. So I guess before we wrap up, is there anything that we haven't covered that you'd like to say before we go or where can people find you if not?

Tim (41:04.042)

Ha

Tim (41:16.389)

Actually, there's one last thing. So I think we covered off facilitation a lot and bringing in specialist help. The third strand is the other guy who's not on the call today, which is all around coaching and leadership coaching and team mentorship coaching. And that is around, you know, helping with a growth mindset.

So rather than a very linear, closed way of thinking, it's sort of opening it up and letting go a little bit in terms of how you think about things can be done. And involve it, open to others' perspectives and stuff. So coaching is a big part of it and Lawrence is the other guy in our

mix and I guess really the three things together, facilitation, coaching, subject matter experts we can bring into the mix are our tools. They're the foundation of it and you can find us at room42.co.uk

Adam (42:31.809)

Excellent, excellent. Okay, any final words, John, from your side?

Jon Reay (42:36.654)

No, I was going to do the shout of where to find us, but I think you can get to us from there, but we're on LinkedIn and if you want to send us an email it's just knock at room42.co.uk.

Adam (42:49.159)

Excellent, excellent. Well, thank you very much, Tim. Thank you very much, John, for joining me today on the Fractional CFO show. I really appreciate your insight, your perspective and your time. Thank you.

Jon Reay (43:00.28)

Thanks, Adam.

Tim (43:00.385)

and see you next time.