Building a Charity with a CEO’s Mindset

This week, I sat down with Peter Charalambides, CEO of The Upper Room and former Property CEO, for a powerful conversation on how to run a charity with a business mindest.

Some of my favourite moments from our chat include:

✅ What Peter learned from starting-up a business and how that shapes his charity leadership today.
 ✅ Why charities must diversify income streams and the impact of local community.
✅ Financial lessons from the business world on cash flow, benchmarking salaries, and tech that Peter took to the third sector.
✅ How Peter uses mindfulness (and a beard net) to help out with The Upper Room’s meal service.
✅ And his call to action for younger donors, and those who can help reach them.

If you're leading a purpose-driven business or want to hear what financial leadership looks like in the charity sector, this one’s for you.

Big thanks to Peter for being generous with his story, and for the Doctor Who name drop too 👀 

Transcript

Adam Cooper (00:01.428)

Okay, so today I'm joined by Peter Charalambides. Peter is the CEO of The Upper Room and a property professional with over 20 years experience before that and he has recently moved into the public sector. So Peter, welcome to the Fractional CFO Show. How are you doing today?

Peter (00:19.545)

I'm very well glad to be here.

Adam Cooper (00:22.402)

Very glad to have you here. Thank you for joining. And I'm really looking forward to this one. And you're really interested in your experience of how you moved from property to the charity world. So to start with, would you mind giving us a bit of an overview of how you got from running Papoose, I think it was, I saw your property management company, how you got from 12 years of that to being a charity CEO.

Peter (00:50.137)

Okay, so you're going to be taking me back now. We're going back all the way to 2006, not to give away how old I am here. But yeah, I was working in the estate agent and we were working with lots of suppliers and I thought I saw a bit of a gap in the market in terms of property inventories, which is basically if you're renting a property, someone will go in there and look at the property before you go in and look at everything in there and the condition of everything.

And then just basically when you leave the property, will, yeah, see if you've caused any damage and things like that. So we were paying people to do that. And I thought there was a bit of a gap there. So I left a state agency and started Papoose in 2007. It was just me in a bag knocking on doors of estate agents. And yeah, like, thankfully, some people signed into the idea and I started doing inventories.

I started with less than a thousand pounds. So all the growth we had was very organic. over the years, I'm proud to say and glad to say that we increased in size, increased in staff, increased the number of services we were doing. So we went from doing inventories to EPCs, gas safety certificates, electrical safety certificates, everything you need basically to rent a property. So we were just becoming a one stop shop.

So yeah, started in 2007, grew pretty organically and in 2019 decided pretty much enough was enough. It was quite hard going because it was all about high volume, low margins. And I think in the last year that we were in operation, we did about three and a half thousand, four thousand appointments in the year. So it was quite a lot of work.

Yeah, so sold it in October 2019. Thankfully, just before Covid, I'd like to say that I'm one of these super forecasters, but it was sheer luck more than anything else. And I'm grateful that I did actually get out of that stage because everyone knows what happened when Covid came along. It really did hit the rental market. And I think we would have really suffered during that time. So got through Covid and eventually had to look for another job.

Peter (03:11.119)

And it's quite funny being a managing director or CEO of a company, you're kind of qualified for everything and nothing because I was like a master of all trades. No, so I've got that wrong. A jack of all trades and a master of none. So I did struggle a bit, but I did with my background in property. I saw an opportunity at the National Residential Landlords Association as a landlord advisor. And I should declare at this point that I'm also a landlord myself.

So I joined up there. I have to say it was a great organization. I continue to be a member today, but it was actually during that time that I turned to more sort of social impact ideas. We worked with a lot of landlords and I'd say 95 % actually 99 % of them were great. We're absolutely lovely. Really had the tenants, tenants best interests at heart, but there was a tiny percentage who

were looking to exploit tenants and that really made me feel uncomfortable. Landlords would often claim that the law was all on the tenant side and they were the victims in any kind of relationship. And in reality, on paper, that's probably true, but in reality, not so much. For example, if a landlord illegally evicts a tenant, which is a criminal act, then...

the tenant who's sitting on his doorstep with all his belongings, the first thing in their mind is not to lodge an official complaint with the police, it's to find another property. So this didn't really sit well with me. So I decided that with all my knowledge and experience, I should be really helping tenants. And that's when I turned to the charity sector and I started working at Beam, which was a startup looking to help people into employment and housing.

And from there, I went to Thamesreach, a very large London based homeless charity. And I had a year's contract there covering some maternity leave as an area manager. So I was looking after about six different services, working with the NHS hostels, all kinds of things. And this led me quite naturally to this role I find myself in now, which I've been doing for about six months.

Adam Cooper (05:31.918)

Excellent, okay, very good. And very interesting background there. And I'd be keen to understand the crossover lessons that you've taken from those kind of 12 plus years of running Papoose and the property services space. Which lessons have you found from that experience and from your other experiences have helped you most in your current role as a charity leader?

Peter (05:57.317)

Yeah, first of all, I need to say that Papoose, when I started my company, I didn't know it'd take off and Papoose was just a word I liked. People often came up to me said, why Papoose, why Papoose? And because I'm half Greek, people thought it related to the Greek word, Bapoo for grandfather. And no, it's just a word I liked. yeah, for 12 years, I found myself answering the phone with it every single day. But I'd say the single most important thing that's sort of

been consistent between working in the private sector and the third sector now is having the client at the centre of everything you do. So whatever service or product you're making, ensuring you're delivering exactly what people want or need. So I'd say that has carried through. Also, the nature of Papoose, we had no contracts with our clients, so it was all based on goodwill. And that meant that relationships were vital for us to sort of continue and succeed. So I'd say

relationships and having a client focus are the two most important things. But there are also other practical things. For example, when I started Papoose, I went there with kind of blind-eyed and a little optimistic. So I put everyone's initial salaries as high as I possibly could just to try and make it as just and as kind as I could be. And in reality, and with the aid of hindsight,

It was a lesson learnt as costs increase, as we increase in size and overheads went up, like we needed bigger offices, better computers, better software. I had very little headroom left to take salaries. So benchmarking salaries at an appropriate level, I think is one of the key lessons as well. Too low, you won't get the right people. Too high, as I say, it leaves you no headroom. Also cash flow management.

With business, as in any charity that you're looking after, you need money in the bank, otherwise you just can't operate. And Papou's, this was quite a harsh lesson. remember there was a few months at the beginning where I couldn't afford to pay myself because I to pay the bills and pay staff. And likewise, in a charity, we have lots of vulnerable and disadvantaged people to help. If we don't have money in our bank, then we won't be able to pay our staff and we won't be able to provide those services.

Peter (08:24.207)

I also think leadership's really important, whatever you're doing. think leading from the front is vital and not being afraid to get your hands dirty. So to give an example, when I was at Papu, so if people were sick or unavailable, any of my team, I would jump in and do what I could to cover the day to day, the business as usual kind of thing.

And again, with the charity, we run three distinct services here. One of them is a hot meal service. And if we're short volunteers, I'll gladly roll up my sleeves, put on a beard net because they do make me wear a beard net. Although I'm not sure if I need it or not. I'm not sure if they're just having a laugh at me. yes, and also being there for the good times and the bad times. I think if you're delivering bad news.

which you do have to do from time to time running a business and a charity if you're dealing with a team, doing it upfront, being honest. And I think that encourages respect and people appreciate honesty. So not hiding when difficult decisions have to be made. And finally, I'd also say the use of data. Data is king, I think for everything for...

planning your services, looking for efficiencies, looking for improvements and again whatever service or product you're delivering data should be at the heart of all decisions you're making really.

Adam Cooper (09:58.272)

some really, really good advice there. And yeah, amazing as you outlined it, I was just thinking how many similarities there are between commercial and non-commercial organizations. So yeah, and obviously this being a financial podcast, I was very pleased to hear you say that cash is king and also talking about the headroom and that financial discipline and those lessons that you've learned are critical for anyone starting a business or moving into the charity sector clearly. Interesting there,

And I'd like to dive into the cash flow piece a little bit in terms of revenue. Obviously revenue can be slightly different from cash, but for the purposes of this, we'll assume that they're aligned. I'd love to understand how you make money in the charity space. Obviously you've talked about Papoose and the services that you offer there and you've touched on the services that the upper room offer, but obviously it's a charity. So how...

How do you make money? What are the revenue streams that you use to bring in the cash?

Peter (10:58.929)

So I'd say this is where the big difference is. In the private sector, you're looking to maximise profit. That's your, most of the time, your primary aim. In the charity market, you're, well, charity market, in the third sector, when you're running a charity, profit becomes unimportant. It becomes more about impact and purpose. So you're not looking to deliver a service with

sort of profit at the back of your mind. That really doesn't come into it. If anything, you're looking to balance, run a balanced budget as much as possible. in terms of us as a charity, our main income come from trusts and grants, donations and corporate partnerships. This is where it really is different to running a business. We don't have

clients who pay for a product or service. We have to get our revenue to use your financial word. I know this is a financial podcast. So we have to look for our revenue elsewhere. It's not from our clients buying products. And this is, as I say, from trust and grants, donations of corporates. also raise money through events and

Peter (12:23.867)

don't know where else we raise our money. But it's interesting, actually, because I've worked in three different organisations while I've been working in the third sector. And each one had a different approach to revenue raising. So the first one was a startup where it was all about raising as much investment as possible. It was a community interest company. So no, it wasn't. It was a social enterprise.

So it was actually looking to make a profit. And because it was a startup, it was looking to raise as much money as quickly as possible to scale as fast as possible. So revenue was vital, but it mainly came through private investors. And we were talking millions of pounds from sort of socially minded investors who wanted to give something back. And we were making substantial losses.

with the aim of getting, you know, I think it's the whole thing about moving fast and breaking things as you go along. The next charity I worked in was a very large charity. had about 500 employees and their approach to funding was that they would only run services that they actually had funding in the bank. So most of their funding actually came through statutory sources, which is local or central government, and they would only run

what they had money in the bank for. So if a local authority commissioned them to run a certain project, they would run that project and have people on fixed term contracts for the length of that contract. Here where I'm at the moment at the upper room, it is actually more akin to running a business. We make projections based on previous data, previous years finances, and we plan accordingly so that we will plan what services we want to deliver.

We'll then look at what revenue we need to raise based on previous years and raise that revenue through the sources I've mentioned as the year progresses. So there's no guarantees. But yes, I always think that using history as a guide can be very helpful.

Adam Cooper (14:36.814)

Okay, now that's great. And really interesting to hear about those different sources of funding. You mentioned about grants, donations, corporate partnerships and events. And I'd be interested because you've got those myriad sources. What do you do you have any tips for other charity leaders on on how best to reduce your reliance on any one of those? So how to effectively sort of diversify?

your fundraising through the different sources. Any sort of tips for the audience?

Peter (15:11.515)

That's exactly the right word. You mentioned that diversify like you need to have as many income streams or revenue streams as possible. As soon as you become reliant on one or two, you are in danger. And I have to say from a charity's point of view, it is quite tough out there at the moment. Local authority spending is going down. People have less money in their pockets to donate because of the cost of living. In terms of the people we're helping.

we're actually seeing an increase in demand at the moment due to benefits being effectively reduced in real terms. Sorry, let me just say that again. We're actually seeing an increase in service use at the moment because not only because of the cost of living crisis, but also in real terms, benefits haven't increased and the cost of housing, everyone knows how much it costs to rent a property nowadays.

So it is really tough out there. We're seeing a reduction in number of sources of income or revenue and an increase in demand. So it is tough for all charities. I think I was reading the other day that I think in 2023, 4000 charities were taken off the Charity Commission in that year alone, which was actually a new record. So what we plan to do, and I have to give credit to the previous CEO we had.

where I write. He made a conscious effort to start approaching corporate partners in order to boost revenue from that area. And I have to say it now does account for about 15 % of our total revenue. So that has been a real boon. But I would say my advice to other charities is, trusts and grants always apply for them, even though they are becoming more more limited and

people, they are becoming more competitive. I would reach out to corporates, especially if you're a community based charity, I'd say that's one thing that's really helped us actually having a strong community base has attracted local corporates. So if you're a charity with a strong community connection, reach out to local businesses. You'll be surprised at how many actually want to help.

Peter (17:35.193)

especially once they learn about the good work and everything that you're doing. I would also say donations again, we are very lucky with the charity's been going for 30 years plus. And over that time has built up a really strong reputation and a great amount of respect and love from locals. We're also blessed to be in quite a affluent area. So people

are extremely generous in their donations and I'd say they account for about 10 % of our total revenue at the moment. It always amazes me the generosity of the local community is both humbling and heartwarming just to see how people want to help us. One other area that I really want us to look at as a charity though is statutory revenue streams. This will be challenging as I say local authority spending

is getting tighter and tighter. know what's happened up in Birmingham recently. I also read the other day that the, I think, London councils are spending about £4 million a day or three quarters of their housing budget on temporary housing alone. So statutory routes of funding have become more strained, but they still exist. So I would say approach your local authorities, speak to your local councillors, see

see what would be available. would also go to local mayor, like I know in London we have mayoral funding. We also have larger bodies, so when councils come together and in London we have London councils who work as a single sort of unit and they distribute funds to commission services as well. But also central government, we run a service that helps ex-offenders and young people at risk of

crimes. So we are looking to approach the Ministry of Justice to see if there's any possibilities there. I think it is about knocking on as many doors as possible. I would say about the statutory funding. I have started approaching that relatively recent and realistically, I'm not expecting it to bear fruit for a good 10 months. These things take time.

Peter (19:56.325)

At the moment for us, it's just about getting the foot in the door and having those conversations.

Adam Cooper (20:02.375)

Fascinating and really interesting to hear some of those statistics are shocking actually in terms of the number of charities that have come off the register and also the proportion of money that's going towards temporary housing. It just feels like there has to be a better way, but it's great that you're working on that. One thing you mentioned there and obviously we have a lot of companies and people who work in corporations listening to the podcast. So I was interested about your local corporate

partnerships and I'd love to dive into sort of what you find works really well. What is it that makes a good corporate partnership and gets those local companies excited to support the Upper Room?

Peter (20:44.603)

Well, first of all, think it's sorry. I think first of all, is making sure that the corporates share the same sort of ideals and values as you do as a charity. And they're not simply they're just ticking a CSR box, which we have had in the past. And for us, we invite actually invite charities in to come and volunteer with our meal service. We find this really is the best way of getting people to see

First hand, the work we do and see how great our teams are. I have to give a shout out to the team that I've been sort of, I have to give a shout out to the team I work with. They do extraordinary work and go well beyond any kind of expectations that you would expect in any normal role. But I would say, yeah, our corporate cook days have have proved extremely popular.

So we would invite a corporatin, they'd send in maybe up to 10 volunteers and they would work with our chef and our service managers to prep food, help cook the food and then go on to actually serve the food and also wash them up and sorry and also do the washing up which I think is good and a humbling experience for anyone. I know when I do it I actually quite enjoy it, it's perfect mindfulness but

So that has worked really well for us. But yeah, we are really grateful for our corporates. Again, our reputation and good name has proved our most effective marketing tool. did try when I, know the last CEO did try a bit of a scatter gun approach, which I continued when I joined to try and attract more corporates, but it really wasn't that effective. seemed like a lot of time and effort for

for not much, so it's for very few results. So yes, again, I always feel like I've been extremely lucky in this role. I'm really benefiting from the good work that's sort of come before me. yeah, Ag Good Name is like a magnet for those genuinely caring minded corporates who want to give something back.

Peter (23:04.835)

And I have to say when they do, when the corporates do come in, we've had corporates come in and the volunteers love it so much that they'll come back in their own spare time. But it's not only just the volunteering, they also help with donations. So with part of our meal service, we will also hand out sort of mobile phones, data, food vouchers, bus tickets and toiletries and socks and pants and clothes and things like this.

A lot of our corporates will do drives for collections of these items, which really again help us out. And also they've supported us with sponsoring events. recently we had David Tennant. And recently we had an event with David Tennant and Deborah Francis White, which was one of our biggest events ever. And we did have a corporate sponsoring us for that. And I'd say

On a side note, the event was a great success and David Tennant and Deborah were absolutely lovely and were so generous with their time. And I also have to say that David also very generously donated some personal items from with Doctor Who sort of connotations and and signed them all. And we were also able to put on an auction. But I've kind of, yes, drifted away from your corporate question and I'm just name dropping celebrities now.

Adam Cooper (24:32.622)

No, that's all good. That's all good. No, everyone loves a good celebrity name drop. So now and I love a bit Doctor Who. So David Tennant, I'm just sorry I missed that one. That's really useful and some great advice there to what works and what doesn't work from a corporate partnership standpoint. One thing you mentioned when we were talking before this was just about some of the work you're doing to reach younger donors. Obviously donations, as you say, is a key sort

income stream for you and you're doing some work in terms of with influencers and online creators I believe to engage that younger group. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Peter (25:14.181)

Yeah, it's really important that we attract younger people to the work we're doing. Traditionally, our demographic of people that have our supporters is generally, you know, mid-40s upwards, and it is trying to engage younger people in the great work that the team do. So, yeah, recently we were approached by social influencers again. Our good name actually does a bit of a beacon and they came to us.

I think they actually approached a few charities, but they selected us, was quite, well, really nice of them. And yes, the idea is for young people to come along to an event, bring some dry food, tins of food, and they will be able to swap them for designer clothes. Now, I would list the designer clothes here, but I don't know what they are. I'd have to ask my 14-year-old daughter. But...

Yeah, these opportunities have been very few and far between for us and it is a massive challenge for us. I'd say the demographic of those associated with the charity are, yeah, mid-30s upwards. So trying to engage younger people is a challenge and I would actually give a shout out to all your listeners if they know any ways to kind of reach out to engage.

younger people. I would love to hear other people's ideas. As I say, we are quite a stretched team. Well, no, we are a small team and as such, a lot of our roles overlap and a lot of things like social media where we really need to be sort banging out content. It is a luxury for us. We simply don't have as much time as we should do.

the coming months we will be able to focus on that more and maybe that will open up a channel to younger supporters but for the time being it is a challenge that we need to address and I'm hoping that this event that we've got lined up will lead to further opportunities but I have to say we're not proactively chasing it and it is something that's on my list of priorities and yeah.

Adam Cooper (27:31.842)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think we do have a lot of marketing agencies and marketeers who listen to this podcast. So if anyone's listening and has some social media expertise that they want to to donate or help out with the upper room, we'll have Peter's details at the end of the podcast and in the show notes. So feel free to reach out. Really good stuff there, just in terms of obviously you mentioned that you're only a few months into the role.

And you've also mentioned about the strong reputation and the legacy of your predecessors. How are you managing that kind of balance of, you know, stepping into such a large role, managing the history and the reputation and balancing that with the need to obviously modernize, as you say, around social media and other areas?

Peter (28:20.623)

Yeah, that has been a challenge, but again, I've been really lucky with the team I've inherited and also the trustees and the volunteers that work within the charity. For the first couple of months, the team did the heavy lifting. I was just there to watch. I used to try and throw myself into frontline activities so I could better understand exactly the work we were doing. And most of the time I would say to the service managers and the team,

I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm just here to learn. If there's anything you want me to do for now, tell me and I'll do everything I can. So the first couple of months was just observing and learning. And I also have to give a shout out to the trustees. Again, they are quite an established team and they were extremely supportive of me when I first joined in terms of who I should be speaking to, who I should be reaching out to.

That was really, really helpful. In terms of my priorities when I came in, obviously I'm a different person to the last CEO. So I had my slightly different vision of how we should be delivering our services. So there was a slight reorganization when I came in. Nothing too major because I didn't want to make any major changes. But one of the other things I wanted to do was introduce technology a bit more to

streamline our services and try and find efficiencies and save time. Again, charities have this reputation of being a bit analog in this digital world. And I'm not saying I'm a digital guy because I'm far from it, but there were improvements to be made. So we got in a new CRM for fundraising, which has really helped streamline the whole process.

We also made sure that our CRM for our guests and service users were streamlined across all our services. We've recently just introduced a new training program. Again, it's all about having a single source of truth. There you go. There's a startup term that I picked up from my time at an organization.

Peter (30:35.143)

When I first joined, the organisation was very heavily reliant on SharePoint. And we all know that SharePoint is just a place for data to go and die. Yeah, I'm not a great fan. I was going to be more disparaging than, but I know that with this public broadcast. So I was looking for alternatives. And I have to say one of the things, one of the great experiences I had with the startup is that they were really technologically savvy and they were always looking for

technological solutions. So that has stayed with me. There's probably more that can be done there, but in the few months I've been here, this has really helped streamline processes and also given me more time to focus on local communities and things like that. yeah.

Adam Cooper (31:25.356)

No, no, sounds very good. like you've made a lot of change already in your few months there, so I'm sure there's lots more to come. guess final question in this section, I'd just like to bring it back a little bit to finance. And you've mentioned a little bit about the lessons that you took from your corporate and business life into the life of the charity and being the charity CEO.

What are the key things you think other charity CEOs need to know about financial management, about cash flow management, about the finances in general to help them better run charities? What lessons from your business life that you've took into the charity space have best served you and therefore what would be good for other charity CEOs to know?

Peter (32:15.419)

Well, I think anyone's approach to finance in terms of whether it's a business or a charity, I think it's a team sport first and foremost. I don't think anyone should ever try and go it alone. Again, I'm very lucky at the Up Room. have a financial officer who's been here for several years and has been a great support for me. We also have a finance subcommittee who oversee the running of the finances of the charity and

We've just actually done our first budget for 25, 26. And I have to say that working alongside these more experienced people has been vital for me to sort of learn and to learn and actually go through it. But yeah, I would say lean on the expertise around you. There's lots of people around who want to help and

Ultimately, there might be some decisions for you to make along the way. not Yeah, the one thing I have tried not to do, having recently joined this charity is to make any massive changes. So in terms of the 2526 budget, what I'm looking for is stability. not looking for any sort of massive growth or massive changes. I so yeah, I don't know how else to answer that question.

Adam Cooper (33:42.734)

No, I think that's a good way of wrapping it up in terms of, you know, when you're budgeting and you're entering a new organization and setting the budget, there's a lot you don't know. And so leaning on the expertise of the people who have been there and not making large changes, very wise in any organization, not just the charity. So that's very good advice, Peter, very good advice. Thank you. And I'll move on to what I call our business book bonus section. So this is where we ask our guests to recommend a business book or a podcast or

some other resource that's been particularly helpful for you on your journey, business and charity. So Peter, what would you recommend? What's been particularly helpful for you?

Peter (34:23.321)

Okay, I'm going to go a bit left field with this. And because I am relatively new to the charity world, and the third sector, I've only been in this sort of arena for the best part of four years, I'm going to say a trade magazine called charity finance. This has been yes, so helpful to me, especially in my role as CEO at the upper room. It's

I've had a lot of I've read a lot of trade magazines over my time, but this one is particularly useful because one thing I would say when you're a CEO of a charity is that governance and good practice are vital to adhere to if you're going to have any kind of success. And I would say the place I get all my information and keep up to date with all the rules and regulations is charity finance. So I know it's not book. I hope you'll accept that.

Adam Cooper (35:20.396)

Absolutely will accept it. That's a great recommendation. Charity Finance. So we'll put a link to that trade mag in the show notes. And that's pretty much it, Peter. So is there anything that you feel we haven't covered that you'd like to say or if not, where can people find you to donate, to connect with you, to find out more about what the Upper Room are doing?

Peter (35:41.415)

Thank you. Yes, we have a website at www.theupperroom.org.uk. The Upper Room is one word. On our website, you'll be able to find information about how you can volunteer, how you can donate and about future events coming up. Actually, it'd be remiss of me not to mention that we have an evening with Dan Evans next week.

He's the whistleblower from the News of the World scandal that blew up a few years ago. So that will be really interesting. And also later on in May, we have an evening with Annabel Croft. I think if she wasn't before, she is a national treasure. But I don't know if come dancing has even...

And we have Annabel and we have Annabel Croft coming up at the end of the month. yeah, by. Yeah, just leave it there. Let me just say it once more. And at the end of the month, we have an evening with Annabel Croft. So if you want to book tickets for that or learn more about it, visit our website, you'll find everything there. If you want to reach out to me, especially if you have any marketing tips about reaching.

Adam Cooper (36:30.222)

Maybe what?

Adam Cooper (36:39.412)

Excellent.

Yeah, go for it.

Peter (36:58.701)

younger supporters, you'll also find our email details as well, so we'd be very grateful.

Adam Cooper (37:05.322)

Excellent. Great note to end on. So thank you very much for joining me today on the Fractional CFO Show, Peter. Really appreciate your insight, your perspective and your time. Thank you.