Stop Buying Traffic, Start Buying Revenue

In this episode of The Fractional CFO Show, Adam Cooper is joined by Callum Lockwood (Re:signal) to explore how SEO and marketing decisions translate into real commercial outcomes.

Too many businesses still measure success through traffic, rankings, and vanity metrics. But as Callum explains, those numbers don’t always lead to what actually matters, revenue growth, profitability, and cash flow.

This conversation takes a more commercial and CFO-led view of SEO, reframing it as a long-term growth investment rather than a standalone marketing channel.

Together, Adam and Callum break down how founders and operators should think about return on investment (ROI), payback periods, and contribution margin when evaluating SEO and digital marketing spend.

They also explore how AI is changing the economics of marketing in 2026, from reducing the cost of content production to increasing competition and shifting where real value is created.

Key themes from the episode include:

•  Why traffic alone is a poor indicator of business performance
•  How to connect SEO activity to revenue, margin, and commercial outcomes
•  The role of SEO within a broader growth strategy and marketing mix
•  Common areas where businesses misallocate marketing budget and resources
•  Why many “SEO problems” are actually issues with pricing, positioning, or conversion
•  How to think about SEO in terms of customer acquisition cost (CAC) and lifetime value (LTV)
•  The impact of AI on search, content, and digital competition
•  What CFOs and founders should be asking before investing further in marketing 

This is a practical, experience-led discussion designed to help founders, CEOs, and operators make better decisions about where to invest for sustainable growth.

If you’re spending on marketing, or questioning whether your current strategy is really delivering a return, this episode will help you rethink how SEO fits into your wider commercial model.

Transcript

Adam Cooper (00:02.097)

Okay, so today I'm joined by Callum Lockwood, an e-commerce SEO specialist and the director of Organic Search at Resignal, an agency that's looking at how businesses think about organic search. And Callum is at the forefront of that. He sells revenue, he doesn't sell traffic, and the agency he works in builds every proposal around return on investment. So obviously for a show like ours, this is particularly interesting. So really looking forward to this one. Callum, welcome.

to the Fractional CFO Show, how you doing today?

Callum Lockwood (00:32.984)

Good, thank you. Thanks. Fantastic introduction.

Adam Cooper (00:36.777)

Well, I'm very, very happy to have you here. yeah, I guess to kick us off, could you maybe give us a little bit of your background? Tell us about how you ended up at Resignal and how you ended up doing what you're doing.

Callum Lockwood (00:48.942)

Yeah, sure. So I've worked in search a relatively long period of time, like 16 years in total. I started as an apprentice, not actually knowing what to do without a passion for digital marketing. Got into SEO through an apprenticeship, worked a number of delivery roles, say over the past, over the first 10 years of my career, moved into like managing teams and then

I guess just really, really found like a passion for like organic search, but also like agency work as well. The past two roles I've had of agency side. And I think that's where I really found my feet, if you will. I like interacting with a bunch of different clients on a daily basis and.

I like being in a place where we have search professionals as almost like the core community of our workplace.

Adam Cooper (01:51.643)

Excellent. Sounds great. Sounds like you've really done your time, which is often the best way to fully understand the role. I'm really interested, as I said at the outset, you've mentioned when we spoke before about Resignal and how you think about selling traffic, you're selling the revenue, you're not necessarily selling the traffic and you're very much ROI and return on investment first as the sort of foundations for your audience.

Callum Lockwood (01:56.484)

Yeah

Adam Cooper (02:19.465)

Can you explain that a little bit? What does that actually look like in reality compared to a sort of more traditional approach from an SEO point of view?

Callum Lockwood (02:30.614)

Yeah, so all of our engagements with our clients, like if you come to us as a new business prospect, our proposal will always be founded in what we can bring to your business's bottom line rather than what we can bring in terms of say traffic. There are metrics for traffic and there are metrics for visibility that we do track, but ultimately the core KPI, the one that finds itself in that scope of work document is ultimately revenue led.

or outcomes led for the business. So that may be leads in some cases, but working in e-commerce more often than not, it's directly revenue. We have like a few different ways of framing it to clients or prospects, but invariably it comes down to like a forecast based on actual.

business performance or we'll get a little bit of data from them and then forecast like performance what it could be like in 12 months what it might be like if you like the opportunity cost like if you don't invest and and I guess Also the way I mentioned it there that we talk about it like it's an investment rather than a line item for marketing spend if that makes sense

Adam Cooper (03:45.717)

Excellent, no very much so, very much so. And you mentioned that obviously clients are buying into a metric or KPI around revenue or profit. Do you find that clients who buy into this model tend to stay longer and have a healthier relationship with yourselves than perhaps other businesses where you've been more traffic led rather than more focused on the return on investment?

Callum Lockwood (04:11.379)

Yes, now my experience at Resignal has been very much sort of the former there because we have always operated in that way. They operated very similar to that before I started. But yes, definitely we have a fantastic client retention rate and very good relationships with our clients. And ultimately if the work you're doing is driving...

that bottom line revenue increase, there's very little questions, like big questions over the contract that you have with that client. So it's about the value of results. We are quite results driven as a team, as a culture at Resignal. And I think that reflects on the way that we work with clients as well and the relationships we have with them.

Adam Cooper (04:59.324)

Excellent. And what sort of clients do you work with? You mentioned e-commerce, what sort size clients do typically work with?

Callum Lockwood (05:05.973)

Yeah, so it's, there's no...

There's no typical size really. We have like a range. We obviously have like an entry bar and then we'll work all the way up to like enterprise level e-commerce clients across multiple countries. like international brands we'll work with. But also we would work with like an up and coming e-commerce business within the UK that was looking to grow relatively quickly.

I think it matches our culture quite well and how we work with clients. So we have different sort of service levels which we provide based on the needs because the needs might be slightly different client side but the outcomes largely the same.

Adam Cooper (05:55.561)

Okay, okay, cool. And the audience of this show is typically small business owners, UK based predominantly. If they were spending with you, they came on, they spent 5K a month on SEO and can't immediately point to what it's generating, how would you address that? What would you tell them? How would you sort of help them become comfortable with it so it becomes that longer term relationship?

Callum Lockwood (06:22.413)

That is a fantastic question, first of all. there's, I made some mental notes about this before I joined the pod today. And there's an interesting way of looking at it, which is a comparison between paid search and organic. With paid search, you're going to spend money and get money out. There's no two ways about it. You wouldn't be paying for those clicks if they weren't generating you money.

On the face of it, you would be say, put money in, get money out, you stop spending, your money stops coming in. With organic, it's slightly different, but if you do look at it like an investment, you're essentially building an asset that will then generate your money. Not only that, as your performance progresses, your acquisition cost per client or per customer comes down.

Whereas with paid, you will always have a ceiling. We know paid platforms are like the pumping the price up. Yeah, so the sort of like marginal cost will decrease over time with organic. And again, this is something we typically forecast with larger clients. We would then build in a model in the shows.

how those two channels can work together to build incremental growth. So it goes one step further. But on the face of it, like the sort of day one conversation is treating it like an investment and not thinking about it like a marketing channel like with say paid advertising.

Adam Cooper (07:59.515)

Okay, that's great. I like that. And you've taken us nicely onto the next section I was going to ask you about, which is around the reporting and the modeling that you do and how that typically works. You say about building out that model to sort of do that compare and contrast with paid versus organic. Is there any other kind of elements to that reporting that differentiates you from how other agencies work? Is there anything that you provide that's different that you could

Callum Lockwood (08:08.386)

Yeah.

Adam Cooper (08:29.31)

point to and sort of illustrate for the audience.

Callum Lockwood (08:30.445)

I'm.

Yeah, yes, but this, will be honest, this area is partially client dependent. We don't have an awful lot of control over the platforms and reporting setup. We provide guidance on how to get the right data out of those reports if it isn't already being provided to a client. Along that paid thread, we find that typically, say you haven't worked with an SEO agency before

sort of time looking for an organic search agency, you will probably be of the mindset of like performance marketing, paid media does drive results. And that's because the attribution modeling by default in a lot of these platforms will favor those paid channels. So you need to, first of all, take a step back and understand.

your marketing funnel as a whole and which sections of it are important and how that is represented in your reporting. So even using say some sort of like data-driven attribution modeling in Google Analytics, that's probably like quite an easy test to run is set up a second property with data-driven attribution.

And that's like a really good step, a really good step to start. But then also reporting directly on organic revenue. even without everything that I've said, you can still look at organic revenue as a metric within Google Analytics platform, say, at its most basic level and see growth over time if your SEO strategy is in a good place.

Callum Lockwood (10:15.947)

Yeah, but you can get very detailed in this area when you start talking about like your actual reporting setup for the value of organic.

Adam Cooper (10:25.652)

I'm sure, I'm sure it's often the case that the reporting is a lot more granular and nuanced than perhaps the client understands it to be or needs it to be and that's obviously where you guys come in and help guide I'm sure. One thing that I'm really interested on, obviously the audience of this pod as I say, UK business owners but we also have some CFOs and fractional finance folk who are often on the other side of those conversations and I know

we were talking before about when you're in front of a procurement team or in front of the C-suite from a finance perspective, what are they typically asking you for as the agency coming in and pitching for the business and how do you prove the value at that level? And I guess you've answered that to a point in terms of the ROI and approach that you take, but it'd good to just, particular sort of language that,

you talk to finance and finance can understand from that side of things.

Callum Lockwood (11:28.939)

Yeah, again, it is very outcome led those conversations because they don't like, we don't expect them to and they don't need to understand the specifics of what we are doing. So they don't need to know the brief or a specific line item that sits in a project that they can see a breakdown for that says it costs 10,000 pounds. What they need to know is that that is what the team that's asked for it like needs. And we're confident that

we're not doing that to take say like resource away from their internal team, but we're doing it because it's gonna generate results.

We will, to that point, we'll actively take stuff out of proposals that we don't believe will drive organic revenue and have it as like an upsell, but with no KPI attached to it. Like if you really want this outsourced, you can pay for it, but we're not confident in doing this and telling you that you're gonna get a return on your spend. And to that as well, in a lot of our proposals, we'd say have line items for blocks of the strategy and we'll confidently

put a number against it terms of roughly how much revenue we think it would generate or if say it's not that easy to do that and they say some sort of technical infrastructure piece that is critical to the site performing well we will almost say like you cannot grow revenue until this is fixed but once it is fixed this is the upside and

that comes onto like a whole different, a whole different topic of how you get stuff done internally client side. But yeah, a lot of those conversations with say like procurement teams, finance, it's more about making sure that what we're doing is with that KPI in mind and we're not just say like delivering a work for work sake.

Adam Cooper (13:29.556)

I love that. That's great advice. The taking stuff out of the scope and having no KPI attached and then giving guidance around what needs to be done. That's exactly what as a CFO you want to see, you want to hear, you want to understand. And I guess a sort of follow on question around, are there any metrics or any behaviors or activities that you see from the SEO community at large that you think are sort of actually irrelevant to the business outcome or that you try and avoid as an agency?

Callum Lockwood (13:59.949)

No specific, yeah. There isn't an awful lot of specific examples that come to mind to be honest. But I also don't think we talk like as a community, we don't talk enough about everything I've said up until this point. A lot of it is around growing traffic, growing visibility. Like a big one at the moment is.

Adam Cooper (14:01.948)

Asking you to spill the tea here, Callum.

Callum Lockwood (14:24.562)

you need to increase your share of visibility in AI search. And the biggest question that we want clients to ask us is why? how are we tracking the revenue that comes off that visibility? Or how are we tracking the growth that comes off it? Because we don't necessarily have like a sort of like a magic answer to this at the moment. And it's something we are working on.

we can draw some dotted lines, but we can't definitively map those two things together in terms of reporting on the performance. And I think we are, as an organic search community, just jump into this whole AI search is a new frontier without breaking out the bits that are actually gonna make a difference. Like a big thing.

that we would focus on at the moment is we're going down the path of building up and offering around a Gentic search because that will have like a direct outcome. Like people are shopping in AI and buying products. We want our clients products to be there. And that is one of those dotted lines I speak of. Attribution is still like it, there's a bit of a question mark over that.

we're going to be the first ones to market as soon as these solutions launch for sure, or one of the first.

Adam Cooper (15:53.429)

Okay, great. yeah, well, guess that let's dive into that a little bit more because there are AI search and the future of search. There's the promise out there and there's plenty of agencies that sit there and will charge you a lot of money. And obviously, the audience of this pod are small business owners, limited budget. What should they be doing right now to sort of future proof their organic presence without sort of breaking the bank?

Callum Lockwood (16:23.948)

Find an agency that talks about organic searches as one whole piece. don't, none of these things, when we talk about organic search, none of the individual pieces of it operate in a silo. They all contribute to each other and they all lift each other up.

So you have the fundamental piece, which is, is my website technically stable? And that, that should be the sort of narrative that most people are coming to you with. And then you have that the content that sits on there. It needs to facilitate both organic, like traditional search, Google search and AI search. You need to really take into account both of those things at the same time and not one or the other.

I think that's like an immediate litmus test that you can perform like when you're listening to anybody talking about this like GEO, if you're buying GEO, there needs to be that element of like organic search as a foundation to that overall piece for sure. think that's gonna be.

Yeah, I think if I was buying it, that's what I'd be looking out for. I wouldn't want anything that feels like brand new or a little bit gimmicky. I certainly wouldn't be jumping into that at the moment.

Adam Cooper (17:53.263)

That's really good advice. Obviously, there's the from the client perspective, what they should be thinking about. But from an agency point of view and from your agency, you were launching or relaunching the A.R.E. signal today from scratch, what would you do differently? What would you build differently knowing what AI is doing to search and what you know now?

Callum Lockwood (18:16.448)

Yeah, it's a well-timed question. So the agency has just gone through a rebrand and we've launched a couple of new products, service offerings, if you will. So.

AI search built into the core offering is, I guess, added value to what we're already doing, but in some cases, there is like a little bit of explicit cost there for net new activity. And there's a little bit of tooling that's required, like additional tooling that is required on top of that. And then because we are e-commerce, a huge focus now on...

that the product optimization basically like product level optimizations and ensuring you have a robust sort of like product feed.

that is replicated through your site, through your, as well like your, getting a little bit technical, don't wanna go too far off topic, but is replicated through almost like your internal merchandising system. So if you have an e-commerce website, all your products are categorized in a logical format that's replicated in your feed and your structured data.

So we were essentially creating a nice friendly client facing version of that. is organic product optimization for the sake of like organic shopping and also future proofing it for agentic as well. making sure that when AI is going to be facilitating the majority of shopping journeys that our clients can be there.

Adam Cooper (20:00.881)

Excellent. Yeah, that was, that was quite in the weeds there, but I got it. And I think the audience would as well. So it sounds like you're really, you're really setting yourself, you're setting yourselves up. And I think that's the key for, we talk to our clients about from a, from a finance perspective as well, it's foundations, right? It's making sure that your, your data is organized and structured in a way that you can then get insights off the back of that. And that's the same, whether you're talking obviously, you know, product, e-commerce and search, or whether you're talking about finance data.

Callum Lockwood (20:05.13)

Yeah. Good. Good.

Adam Cooper (20:29.172)

and sort of categorization of data. So I think that's critical. I'm interested to go into a little bit, anonymously of course, around some of the case studies that you've been able to sort of achieve improvements with clients. And I think you mentioned a client before we started recording, who's chosen Profit over sort of pure brand growth. Would you be able to walk us through a little bit about that strategic shift?

without naming names or breaching any confidentiality.

Callum Lockwood (21:01.44)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's quite an interesting one. if I, little bit of a story, I guess. So we start the SEO strategy and we focus on what we perceive to be the biggest drivers of organic revenue. So we know, say 10,000 people a month are searching for a non-branded version of their like,

most popular keyword and it roughly converts at around 2 % for an average of 150 pounds every time it converts. We ran the SEO strategy like that for a number of years, always focusing on that bottom line revenue growth. We then got some sort of direction or feedback from the client and also like a little bit more data around the

profitability of individual product lines and product categories, like the actual margins that they would make if we sold them. So we're basically moving more to an area where we're impacting, say the profit and not just overall growth of the company. So we overlaid that data on our...

organic, we call it organic opportunity data. So we can say like X product category has around about 500 grand of headroom this year. But then we can turn that into a profit number. And it drastically changed the sort of, the specific pages and the specific categories we were optimizing.

sort of changed the approach almost in terms of what we're doing. The outcome is obviously more profit for the client, a better client relationship and the ability, because we already had a lot of this data, it just required like overlaying the client data, is the ability to do it quickly as well and not be like, yeah, we'll do this when the renewal comes around or.

Callum Lockwood (23:12.041)

next quarter it was it was almost like an immediate shift.

Adam Cooper (23:16.838)

Nice, nice, I like it. That's a great study. I'm sure, and actually takes us onto something that isn't always talked about, but I'm sure this helped with your client relationship. the client relationship seemed to be key at the outset of that story regarding the data and the profit led approach that the client wanted you to take, but then also your ability to manage that relationship and turn it around quickly as well. So I wondered what role

Callum Lockwood (23:34.635)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Cooper (23:43.56)

that account management, more traditional account management has in unlocking that kind of value? And have you then built that into your workflows going forward with all clients?

Callum Lockwood (23:55.5)

Yeah, I have to say your questions are so fantastic for the journey we've been on over the past two years. Yeah, we really have, we really have. So.

I would say, think around about two years ago, I did some account management training with a fabulous person called Jenny Plant. So little shout out for Jenny. Yeah, so she is fantastic and really opened my eyes to what more we could be doing. And I put a lot of time and effort into it and then realized that was actually a bit of a bottleneck.

Adam Cooper (24:19.732)

Shout out

Callum Lockwood (24:35.231)

because of the amount of...

the amount of opportunity that we had as an agency to really look at our existing clients and see growth opportunities and the amount of time that I had to do it. So we ended up bringing in an account director. So a standalone specific role that sits alongside the delivery team. And now they're available at all major client meetings. So they'll be in person every quarter with the clients.

a specific budget line item that allows them to go and conduct client listening twice a year face to face with the clients. So there's no delivery team members there, it's just our account director and the client. And since doing that, we have noticed a quite a good...

quite a good difference, not just in terms of the results we're getting back from our client listening activity, but the business metric for us is ultimately client retention rate and we're currently set at 100%. So it's definitely working.

Adam Cooper (25:42.996)

Mm-hmm.

Adam Cooper (25:46.813)

Nice.

Adam Cooper (25:50.579)

Very nice, very nice. And I saw your, on LinkedIn, I saw you were hiring as well. So you're clearly doing something right in terms of trying to support your clients and it's giving you the return. Excellent, good. Nice stuff. So just changing tack slightly. If you, as I said, there's a lot of business owners who listen to this. If you were giving one piece of advice to a business owner, hadn't signed an SEO contract before or retained it before.

Callum Lockwood (25:57.708)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we are, yeah.

Adam Cooper (26:17.876)

But that one piece of advice to help guide them, what would that be?

Callum Lockwood (26:22.891)

Wow, that is a question. It depends where you come in from, but if we say we take a step back and SEO is like, this is the first time they're looking at organic search, I would say don't look at it as free traffic like you may.

you may be tempted to look at it as almost like free traffic, but instead looking at it as the ability to bring a business that scales over time. And yes, it does have a glass ceiling, like paid in some regards, but you will very rarely hit it. And you can actually grow like year on year in a compounding way that maybe the first year, your ROI isn't that great on that specific channel.

when you compare it against the others but three five years down the line you'll be wishing you started five years before. I think that's that's like the the best piece of advice if you're not already there mindset wise.

Adam Cooper (27:25.212)

Okay, that's great. Good advice. And I guess two more questions before we go on to our final section, which is our business book bonus section. One is you talked about three to five years, often the sort of reviewing of an agency performance happens sooner than that. Obviously there's quarterly business reviews, annual reviews, et cetera. If a business is looking to review their agency relationship, what should they be looking at? What are the key sort of

Callum Lockwood (27:41.6)

The end.

Adam Cooper (27:54.665)

pieces of advice from that side. We talked about how to sort of think about it at the beginning of the relationship. What about when they come to that renewal review stage?

Callum Lockwood (28:05.085)

Yeah, this is why we like to have KPIs in our contract. So when it comes to renewal, we can point to the KPI and invariably we've hit it and it's quite an easy conversation. So you actually need a number to hold people to account by. I would say that's probably the most important part of it. However,

things can happen, like external events can happen that can cause performance to change as long as you're confident that the agency is aware of that or maybe you might know why, maybe you've increased like paid spend that's cannibalized bit of it, something might have happened.

It's making sure that the story you're being told matches the data. And in fact, there is a story there at all. And it's not just we didn't hit the KPI. It's that why and what is gonna happen next. Because...

every conversation we go to like that, there has been a few, but we will always have a plan. And I think you always need a plan and it needs to be backed by data and it needs to be the truth as well all the time.

Adam Cooper (29:18.1)

Yeah, 100%. That's a great answer. And I guess you've kind of answered it there, but the final question was just about when, obviously it doesn't always work out, a client agency relationship, when's it time to walk away? When would you recommend to someone that it's not worth salvaging? You may have KPIs, you may have missed them, they may come back with a why and a wherefore, but when's that sort of breaking point in your experience?

Callum Lockwood (29:46.091)

There's actually a few reasons. I don't wanna give you a super lengthy answer, but I would say after six months to a year, like if there's no upwards trends, you might not have hit the target, but there needs to be like some sort of green shoots as you call them, if you were to put a bit of jargon on it. There has to be some green shoots. There has to be something they can point to and go, this is working, this isn't, and this is why. Then the...

There is also like a complete flip side to this, which the results might be great, but your ways of working with them are really clunky and it doesn't feel good for the internal team. That is also something that's, it's often overlooked and it needs to feel like they are part of your team and they're not, you're not a bottleneck to them and they're not a bottleneck to you. That needs to be like how it operates, think.

Adam Cooper (30:43.38)

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, great. And I want to move on now to what I call the business book bonus section. So this is where, as I said, you recommend a book or a podcast or another piece of content that's really helped you in your career. So Callum, is there a book or a piece of content that you'd like to recommend to the listeners?

Callum Lockwood (31:00.935)

Yeah there is actually it's a book by a chap called Blair Ends called The Four Conversations.

Adam Cooper (31:07.676)

I can't hear you, sorry, Callum. I don't know if you're... Could you just check your microphone?

Callum Lockwood (31:12.009)

Yeah, is it working?

Adam Cooper (31:16.232)

I'm just going to unplug my microphone and just take a pause for one second.

Callum Lockwood (31:17.524)

Right, okay.

Adam Cooper (31:23.924)

I think it's on my side, hold on one sec.

Callum Lockwood (31:28.767)

Yeah, it's shoving.

Adam Cooper (31:36.062)

Could you just say something?

Callum Lockwood (31:38.207)

Yep. Hello.

Adam Cooper (31:40.404)

Let me just unplug this.

Callum Lockwood (31:41.375)

No.

Callum Lockwood (31:56.629)

Uh-uh.

Adam Cooper (32:14.834)

Hi, can you try and speak again?

Callum Lockwood (32:17.14)

Hello.

Adam Cooper (32:18.654)

Perfect, okay, was probably my headphones decided to disconnect themselves. Wonderful. We'll pick up, let me just repeat that last question so the producer knows where to cut off. thanks for that and now I just want to move across to our business books bonus section. So this is where our guests recommend a book, podcast or other piece of content that has helped you in your career. So Callum, is there a piece of content that you'd like to recommend to the listeners?

Callum Lockwood (32:23.658)

Ah, it's about time,

Callum Lockwood (32:47.068)

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a book by a chap called Blair Enns called The Four Conversations. This book has sort of changed my mindset on like selling to clients, I guess, and being in that room when we're delivering a proposal. So yeah, I'd certainly recommend it.

Adam Cooper (32:47.956)

Absolutely. So it's a book by a chap called Blair Enns.

Adam Cooper (32:57.24)

It sort of changed my mindset on like selling to clients I guess and being in that room when we're delivering a proposal. So yeah I'd certainly recommend it. Nice yeah Blair Ennis I've heard his stuff and the full conversations we'll put a link to that in the show notes so thanks for that and before we wrap up where can people find you learn more about Resignal and the work you're doing.

Callum Lockwood (33:24.306)

Yeah, so obviously the Reteingle website is a good place to start. Other than that, I'm on LinkedIn and that's basically the only social media that I use.

Adam Cooper (33:24.574)

Yeah, so obviously the reading the website is a good place to start. Other than that, I'm on LinkedIn and that's basically the only social media that I use. Nice, nice. Okay, brilliant. Well, thank you very much, Callum, for joining me today on the Fractional CFO Show. Really appreciate your insights, your perspective and your time. Thank you.

Callum Lockwood (33:41.972)

Great, thanks for having me.

Adam Cooper (33:43.667)

Okay, just let's just stay on and