SPEAKER_04: Lord, we give you thanks for this day.
SPEAKER_04: We give you thanks for this day that you have made for us to come and worship you.
SPEAKER_04: Lord, we give you thanks for your word.
SPEAKER_04: We give you thanks for Paul and the ways in which you used him to further your gospel.
SPEAKER_04: Lord, as we uh continue to read Ephesians, enter our hearts and minds, may we have ears to hear, eyes to see what you have for us this morning, and that uh we would be edified, that we would be sanctified by your grace and by by your word this morning.
SPEAKER_04: We pray all these things in your son's holy and precious name.
SPEAKER_04: Amen.
SPEAKER_08: Amen.
SPEAKER_08: Like I said, we're gonna go look at verses 22 through uh 33.
SPEAKER_08: I'll read that, read the uh passage, and then um we'll get started.
SPEAKER_08: Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
SPEAKER_08: Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
SPEAKER_08: Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he may sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
SPEAKER_08: In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies.
SPEAKER_08: He who loves his wife loves himself, for no one has ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.
SPEAKER_08: Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
SPEAKER_08: This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
SPEAKER_08: However, let each one of us let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
SPEAKER_08: Actually, we're going to go to verse 10 of chapter six to verse nine.
SPEAKER_08: So, children, obey your parents and the Lord, for this is right.
SPEAKER_08: Honor your father and mother.
SPEAKER_08: This is the first commandment with a promise, that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land.
SPEAKER_08: Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
SPEAKER_08: Bond servants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of I service as people pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this will receive, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bond servant or as free.
SPEAKER_08: Masters do the same to them and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.
SPEAKER_04: Well, as uh as two guys who are not married, yeah, uh we have a we have an interesting perspective on this, but or no, not interesting perspective, but uh or experience or lack thereof.
SPEAKER_04: But the great thing is is that you don't have to be married, I think, to understand this passage.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_04: Um and uh and the Lord uh the Lord has been gracious to us to um make sure that we can not just we, but we can can understand that.
SPEAKER_04: So um I remember I preached on this at uh at a my cousin's wedding and on on Ephesians 5, 22, and uh or Ephesians, not just 22, but Ephesians 5 um 22 through 33.
SPEAKER_04: And it's oftentimes um generally seen as something that makes men look like they're domin domineering over their wives, at least sometimes that's that's the perspective from folks, and wives are kind of devalued.
SPEAKER_04: Um we know that scripture wouldn't suggest something like that.
SPEAKER_04: So generally, what would you suggest that this text then is more so suggesting in terms of that relationship?
SPEAKER_04: You know, we we we'll we'll dive deeper into it verse by verse.
SPEAKER_08: But maybe a couple things.
SPEAKER_08: What's so controversial about this passage or this the word submit or submissive to drill down on it?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that doesn't fit with the modern day idea of women are equal to men.
SPEAKER_05: Well, the souls equal.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, the souls of men and women are equal.
SPEAKER_05: We're both equally made in God's image.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I mean that you see all these people marching equal rights for women and all that.
SPEAKER_01: Feminism doesn't agree with that, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_04: I think a lot of times people think equal is the same.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, men and women are not the same.
SPEAKER_08: Like I can do women, women can do the same thing that men, but are men and women designed to do the same thing exactly the same way?
SPEAKER_04: No, yeah, and uh see that was a part of that is what makes it controversial is uh I think the the modern feminism, the w the women's liberation movement um that has sparked that.
SPEAKER_04: Um but from men's perspective as well, because we're not we're not blameless in this either, um I think it's allowed men to become passive.
SPEAKER_04: And men, we've been allowed to uh it's controversial because men have instead of being the head of the home, we've sat back generally, sat back and you know, ask your wife, ask your mom, right?
SPEAKER_04: Whatever your mom says, you know, and and and you go to work, you show up, you come home, have dinner, have a drink, and then go to bed, you know.
SPEAKER_08: Well, it can go one of two directions, though.
SPEAKER_08: It can be they can take that authority, if we want to use that word, as the head of the household and use it to rule and be a tyrant, but that's not what scripture's saying.
SPEAKER_08: Scripture is saying as we as we drill down even further into the verses there that the husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
SPEAKER_08: So it's not giving them a license to rule with a heavy hand.
SPEAKER_04: Well, in just the verse before, right?
SPEAKER_04: We read it last week, but in verse 21, we're called to submit to one another out of reverence to Christ.
SPEAKER_04: And in the same way he brings that into the relationship, Paul brings that into the relationship between husband and wife.
SPEAKER_08: So that submitting in 21 refers back to being filled with the Spirit.
SPEAKER_08: And how are we to be filled with the Spirit?
SPEAKER_08: Is we are to dress one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_08: And we will remember that, that will help us, and we continue to be reminded of that.
SPEAKER_08: That is going to help us understand and be, like I said, we're I've never been married, Brenda's never been married, but that's having that understanding of how God is calling us to treat one another.
SPEAKER_08: What's what we're getting at here?
SPEAKER_08: What Paul is getting at is relationships between husband and wife, you know, children and their parents and slaves and and their masters are employees and employers.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
SPEAKER_09: Um, I think it's interesting that that the husband that the wife is never told to love the husband, but the man is told to love the wife.
SPEAKER_09: We have to love the wife, and I think there's quite a difference in because we are to take care of the person that we love.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think men have a much harder calling here than women do.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, he died for the church.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: Um how many I'd say godly men, their attitude would be, oh, oh, oh, over my dead body is someone's gonna touch my wife and kids.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, the woman is to respect the husband.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, but the husband is to love the wife.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
SPEAKER_08: What what is implied there?
SPEAKER_08: Or is it an implication that you know um husbands love your wives?
SPEAKER_08: Most of the time husbands respect their wives and and yeah, and then more than respect.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, well, it's more than that, but it's the um when it says wives respect your husband, it's implied that women, wives love their husbands.
SPEAKER_08: It's implied, right?
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: But you can respect someone without loving them, right?
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I respect the police officer, it doesn't mean I love him.
SPEAKER_07: Um, I think even I mean, I think there's some layers, but even I mean, so put this in the context, you know, uh Paul is writing to a somewhat gentile audience in episodes at a time where you know you have women views viewed nearly as property in some in some of these cultures, no legal status whatsoever, can't testify in the trial, can't inherit things, and uh he's basically telling his husbands you have to respect your your your wife.
SPEAKER_07: And and maybe some husbands would have said, but like you know, maybe they probably don't.
SPEAKER_07: Like you basically, and in some level, I think, you know, if you're a man of that age, you're saying you've got to respect your wife like you would, I don't not be the same, but like you know, you'd respect another man since you've got to treat her, you know, like a person.
SPEAKER_07: And it's sort of this outflow with you said we're in kind of a verse 21, like everybody's gotta submit somewhat, yeah, you know, yeah, like we all have to submit to Christ, and out of that reverence, we submit to each other, we don't consider our own needs uh necessarily first.
SPEAKER_07: That's what it means to submit.
SPEAKER_07: And so here's your first example of this now in marriage.
SPEAKER_07: It's like wives you submit out of love, husbands respect, consider your wives, not your needs first, but submit to each other out of reverence for Christ.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
SPEAKER_08: So we we also see where does where does Paul get this idea from?
SPEAKER_08: Where does it come from?
SPEAKER_08: Well, the Ten Commandments.
SPEAKER_05: Um, when it comes to like kids honoring your parents, and especially in the marriage, then well, Genesis 1 and 2, I think.
SPEAKER_05: Genesis 1.
SPEAKER_08: You're right, Genesis 2, 24.
SPEAKER_08: We he quotes that directly in verse 31.
SPEAKER_08: Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and to two shall hold shall become one flesh.
SPEAKER_08: So Paul is not, this is not new.
SPEAKER_08: We've the um the children of God had fallen away from the standard that was set in Genesis that was given to Adam and Eve, and they fell away from it, but through the gospel of Jesus Christ, he's calling them back to the standard.
SPEAKER_08: So this relationship between husband and wife is nothing new, but it's it's especially new to the Gentiles because they they had been living under the the um the mindset of uh like as Jason said, and also in Rome there was a father called the father law.
SPEAKER_08: The father had the right to sell his kids into slavery, he had the right to get rid of his wife, sell them into slavery.
SPEAKER_08: And this is a work the gospel is bringing, is breaking down the wall that divides the Jew and the Gentile.
SPEAKER_08: He's bringing them in to make them one person.
SPEAKER_08: We see we see it even in the in the marriage there that he is bringing the honor and uh and the the image bearers of the understanding that these people are created in the image of God.
SPEAKER_08: Your husband is creating the image of God, your wife's creating the image of what it brings the value of the of the women and the children and the slaves even up to the standard of the gospel.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it helped, and when you put it into that context, it helps you change your framework from this seems a little old-fashioned and you know, kind of out with you know, not in fit with the 21st century, but you know, really it's like no within the context of of that uh of that day, this brings so much value to all people mentioned here.
SPEAKER_04: And um it brings it brings such value to to wives, to children, to to bond servants, um, to husbands, you know, to to uh to fathers and mothers, to to masters, you know.
SPEAKER_04: So um and even even if it doesn't fit our context, it doesn't mean that it's not true.
SPEAKER_04: It means that our maybe our context is a bit wrong.
SPEAKER_04: Um you know, for much of the world, women really have very few rights.
SPEAKER_09: I know I particularly my work in Bangladesh, you know, um a man will not even look at it at a woman other than his wife, and even a doctor will not even administer to a woman.
SPEAKER_09: So we build a hospital there primarily to minister to women because to give medical care to women because the Muslims would not do it.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, but I think we started a girl school to teach girls because they a girl can only go through the fourth grade.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
SPEAKER_05: Well, I I think in Islam, even according to the Quran, yeah, a woman is worth half of a man.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: And that that's in the the Muslim scripture, Islamic scripture.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09: So basically, this is very radical for when you think about the way the world functions.
SPEAKER_09: Uh and um no, it's I I still don't understand why some of the women over there love their way of wit life.
SPEAKER_09: Sure.
SPEAKER_02: It's all they know.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, it's all they know.
SPEAKER_04: That's right.
SPEAKER_04: Um verse 25, when it speaks on, you know, to that husbands are to love, husbands love your wives, if Christ loved the church and gave himself up um for her, that he may sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.
SPEAKER_04: Um so this is drawing on um where my mind goes to is John 15, and um in the latter portion is you know um, I need to turn there now.
SPEAKER_04: I thought I had it on the top of my head yesterday, and now here I am.
SPEAKER_04: Um it's the end of the latter portion of John 15.
SPEAKER_04: And oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04: John 15, verse 12, this is my commandment that you love one another, as I have loved you.
SPEAKER_04: Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
SPEAKER_04: Uh and you are my friends if you do what I command you.
SPEAKER_04: No longer do I call you servants, for the servants do not know uh what his master is doing, but I have called you friends.
SPEAKER_04: For all that I have heard from my father, I have made known to you.
SPEAKER_04: And um that is the level of I think when we understand sacrifice you know, that kind of sacrificial love as our our call is or your call as husbands.
SPEAKER_04: Uh the it really helps I think John 15 really helps put into perspective, and of course, just the story of Christ in general, um, the weight that it carries.
SPEAKER_04: I think you you you said earlier that you kind of think that the man's role is almost like harder, you know?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Because of you know, you're called to die for your family, if need be.
SPEAKER_04: Hopefully we don't need to, but if need be.
SPEAKER_04: Um in the same way, in verse 20, in the same way husbands love their wives as their own bodies, he who loves his wife uh loves himself, or for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church.
SPEAKER_04: Now, what do we when we when we when we have these relationships, like when I think of let's say there's things and it's like, well, what if the man doesn't?
SPEAKER_04: What if the man doesn't, what if the husband or the wife doesn't fulfill their role?
SPEAKER_04: What if the what if the husband isn't loving his wife?
SPEAKER_04: What if what if the husband isn't submitting to Christ in his headship?
SPEAKER_04: What if the what if the wife isn't respecting her husband and those things?
SPEAKER_04: Is that kind of annul it?
SPEAKER_04: No.
SPEAKER_01: This is separate callings and they don't they aren't interdependent.
SPEAKER_05: I mean, yeah, we obey God first.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
unknown: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's much easier to to fulfill your role if your spouse is fulfilling their role.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but some people don't have that luxury.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04: Um I'll I'll share this with you guys, and I and I and I would ask that you would be praying for for him and his wife.
SPEAKER_04: My my cousin and his wife are are are not doing well.
SPEAKER_04: Um, they're struggling.
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I haven't been there enough to see it, but from what it sounds like from a few different folks, it um there there may be something um like physically organic yeah, physically wrong with with his with his wife, and and she because one moment it's like he you know, she loves me, she loves me not.
SPEAKER_04: She loves me, she loves me not.
SPEAKER_04: And one moment she's great, and then next moment she's like, you don't love me, you don't love our family, why don't you know and it's he's like it just he never knows like bipolar something like that, and I don't know, you know, they have two young two young boys, and I don't know if anything like postpartum has affected that or something.
SPEAKER_04: And but in and what's been difficult is that when she's had people around her say, Hey, are you okay?
SPEAKER_04: Like you don't go get checked out, she's kind of cast them out.
SPEAKER_04: And um has she always been like no, I've known they've I mean they're high school sweethearts, I've known I've known her since I was in eighth grade.
SPEAKER_05: I I think from what I understand, uh man or um mental illnesses often hits people when they're in their 20s.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, she's you know, she's my age, she's 27, 28, and um but you know I like you know I've known her since I was in eighth grade.
SPEAKER_04: I've I showed pigs with her, you know, she's um always liked her, and so um just seems sounds very different, so from from what I know of her.
SPEAKER_04: So um, but you know, my my cousin and even people around him have suggest you know uh people around my cousin back home have suggested, well, you know, if she doesn't, you know, if something doesn't happen, you may need to divorce her.
SPEAKER_04: And one of them is a person that I know and that's close with him, and I called them.
SPEAKER_04: I said, why?
SPEAKER_04: Why would you suggest that?
SPEAKER_04: Because I and you know, it because Ephesians 5 doesn't say, well, if you're if you're if your spouse doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, then you're free to do no.
SPEAKER_04: He is to love his wife even in the midst of this, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_04: Or if it was the f you know, opposite way around, you know, around that you know, and and so um it's just been my continued petition to him is you know love your wife the best you can.
SPEAKER_04: It's hard.
SPEAKER_04: I I can't I can imagine that this is not a hard easy time to love your wife, um, but don't take Their advice stinks.
SPEAKER_04: Their advice is terrible.
SPEAKER_04: Do not take that.
SPEAKER_04: It is wrong.
SPEAKER_04: And it's sin.
SPEAKER_04: It would be sinful for you to do that.
SPEAKER_04: And God would not be honored in that.
SPEAKER_04: And I think he took that well.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the world says if you're not 100% happy in your marriage, bail out.
SPEAKER_04: I think I think oftentimes generally it's contractual, right?
SPEAKER_04: And and that's not marriage.
SPEAKER_04: That's not a relationship.
SPEAKER_04: And because if that was if that was our relationship with Christ, we'd be we would have been done a long time ago.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what I see in this passage is and it sort of speaks to that situation.
SPEAKER_00: Like like we've said, that if one person isn't holding up their side of the calling from God, that makes it much harder.
SPEAKER_00: But it's not like in this passage, God gives the excuse to give up.
SPEAKER_00: Like in verse 25, you know, it talks about 26, sanctifying her, having cleansed her, and so that she could be presented without spot or wrinkle.
SPEAKER_00: That implies that there are spots, there are wrinkles.
SPEAKER_00: This is a process and it's gonna be messy.
SPEAKER_00: Lean into that, helping to build her up and present her uh beautiful before before the Lord.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_04: Um, what do we make of the what's what's interesting here is the latter half of I think the passage as well.
SPEAKER_04: Um you know, Paul is really bringing in the body into the relationship between husband and wife.
SPEAKER_04: Part of that with as he quotes uh Genesis 2, therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh, and the relationship there between you know husband and wife and their sexual relationship as well, um, is is important there.
SPEAKER_05: Um just a uh a side track side note.
SPEAKER_05: This is one issue I would take issue with the Gnostics because one flesh that means our physical body is important, yeah.
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
SPEAKER_05: And when you engage in like sexual sin, you sin against your body.
SPEAKER_05: Sorry, I I digress, but that one flesh is a big deal.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and we talked about that a couple weeks ago.
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that one one flesh is a pretty big deal, I think.
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
SPEAKER_04: And and that kind of goes back to verse 23, when when that uh even as Christ is the head of the of the church, his body.
SPEAKER_04: And uh Paul kind of is bringing that back into the fold, that as the husband is the head of the body between the husband and the wife, so is Christ head over all of you know of his body and the church.
SPEAKER_04: Um and there's a there's a unique there's a unique relationship there that only a husband and wife can, or at least should, should have.
SPEAKER_04: Um I I feel like do you have anything more to add to this?
SPEAKER_04: I and then we can we can continue to go into chapter six.
SPEAKER_04: Any any other final, any not final thoughts, but any other thoughts before we move on into chapter six and those those first nine verses?
unknown: Very good.
SPEAKER_09: Okay.
SPEAKER_09: I'm just gonna say that my particular case, my grandmother was the metriarch of the family.
SPEAKER_09: I would have hated to be one of her kids, but I'll tell you, being one of her grandkids was fantastic.
SPEAKER_04: I'll share the I'll share this line that our won't go to the next, but R.
SPEAKER_04: C.
SPEAKER_04: always said uh R.
SPEAKER_04: C.
SPEAKER_04: Sproul would say, um, in my house, I wear the pants.
SPEAKER_04: Now my wife tells me which pants to put on.
SPEAKER_04: But I wear them.
SPEAKER_01: The man rules the roof, roost, but the wife rules the rooster.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01: That's I like that.
SPEAKER_01: The man rules the roost, but the wife rules the rooster.
SPEAKER_01: So that's I mean, well, that's I I tend to have a more domineering personality.
SPEAKER_01: Huh?
SPEAKER_04: Oh boy.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's everybody let's step out for a few minutes.
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, we could still get along, and he he does probably let me take charge.
SPEAKER_05: I'm at home, or I'm at work all day.
SPEAKER_05: You're you're you you homeschool Cooper and I have to take charge as well.
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean I try not to ever do anything that he's adamantly opposed to, and I try to consult with him before I make big decisions that would affect the whole family.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's that's my mother.
SPEAKER_04: She's a you know, she's a farm girl, she's a doer, you know, she uh she's can be like me and we're very uh headstrong.
SPEAKER_04: And my dad is very nothing bothers him.
SPEAKER_04: He's very, you know, the only thing that bothers him is if you if you leave the garbage door open, then he'll then he'll have a flare-up.
SPEAKER_04: But other than that, which don't ask, you know, I've had one too many experiences of a flare-up of him slamming the garbage door and telling me to close it.
SPEAKER_04: Um so but you know, I've talked about you know that relationship with my parents as well, and then they've and they've said, nope.
SPEAKER_04: You know, yeah, I'm you know, my mom's like, yeah, I'm kind of the uh, you know, I have that kind of personality that just kind of takes the bull by its horns, but you know, if your dad says, No, we're not doing that, okay?
SPEAKER_04: And uh, which you know, I don't see that, but you know, they would or that at least haven't haven't seen it much, but that's that's just also my dad.
SPEAKER_04: He's just very just like we'll talk about this ourselves, you know.
SPEAKER_02: So um well, you know, I think about the military families when now in most cases, I'm not saying all are male, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I mean there are women, wives, mothers in the military, but most for the most part it's generally it's men and they're off, and so the women have to take charge.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you know, in today's society, a lot of times it takes both both spouses to work and maintain.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we it's it we it's we we don't live in a world that's friendly to single parent households.
SPEAKER_04: But now in my situation, or not single parent house, single, single uh income income households, yeah, not a single parent, but scratch that from the room.
SPEAKER_02: My husband was not in the military, but I had to be the spiritual leader in my household, otherwise there wouldn't have been one.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_02: And he gave me credit for that after we moved to Tennessee and he joined the men's group, and he was involved in that, and God brought him here to mature him in his faith.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's great before he took him home.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And but he gave me credit for bringing him to Christ.
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, no, that was God.
SPEAKER_02: I just, you know, yes, I kind of made you go to church when you were home, you know.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but uh Yeah, there's unique circumstances in that for sure.
SPEAKER_07: I I think it's probably worth saying, you know, you know, as we dive into this, you know, like the call here, at least as it's directed to the wives, is wives assumed to your husbands.
SPEAKER_07: It's not to have a particular type of personality.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_07: You know, Proverbs 31 woman, she's doing a lot of things.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, you know, and I think you could find a lot of other just biblical examples of Proverbs 31.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that's what I said.
SPEAKER_00: Oh man do business.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, um, so you know, uh you know, we we have this picture here we'll put it here of Christ and the church and relationship, and that's you know, I mean, that's what Paul's saying, which is a lot to say, but he's also, you know, you don't have to necessarily sit at home dart in socks, right?
SPEAKER_07: You know, exactly 16 hours a day.
SPEAKER_07: Exactly.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Um, so then we get into chapter six and the relationship between children and parents, and um we are to honor our father and mother.
SPEAKER_04: This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land.
SPEAKER_04: Um, the promise being you obey your parents and you're not gonna die.
SPEAKER_04: Really?
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08: Um in the old testament that was the the case.
SPEAKER_08: They could be because if they're disobeying their parents, they've disobeyed God first.
SPEAKER_04: Is it Hebrews Hebrews 4 that speaks on that relationship in terms of a father disciplining his children?
SPEAKER_05: Um if you could turn in there and we'll work on it.
SPEAKER_05: Hebrews 11 talks about God disciplining those who loves.
SPEAKER_05: It might it might be Hebrews 11 then.
SPEAKER_05: But I don't recall reading about a family situation.
SPEAKER_04: You know, in terms of in the way that a father disciplines, the way that a father disciplines his children.
SPEAKER_05: I think it's Hebrews 11.
SPEAKER_04: Hebrews 11 is the hall of Hall of Fate.
SPEAKER_05: Or is it Hebrews 12?
SPEAKER_05: Yes, it could be Hebrews 12, like the first early verses, like one through whatever.
SPEAKER_05: I think it is Hebrews 12.
SPEAKER_01: That's about discipline, verse 7.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Hebrews 12, like verse 11.
SPEAKER_04: Verse 7.
SPEAKER_08: You want to read it for us?
SPEAKER_08: It is for discipline.
SPEAKER_08: 12, void.
SPEAKER_01: Starting with verse 7.
SPEAKER_01: It is for discipline that you have to endure.
SPEAKER_01: God is treating you as sons.
SPEAKER_01: For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
SPEAKER_01: If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
SPEAKER_01: Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them.
SPEAKER_01: Shall we not much more be subject to the father of spirits and live?
SPEAKER_01: For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them.
SPEAKER_01: But he disciplines us for our good, so that we may share his holiness.
SPEAKER_01: For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: That uh I think we've all seen children who or have ever been around people who were not disciplined.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: And uh it shows.
SPEAKER_04: It shows.
SPEAKER_04: I uh I my parents figured out what worked for for me.
SPEAKER_04: A couple swats with the wooden spoon uh that did not work on my middle brother.
SPEAKER_04: And he was just like, okay, and we'll go back outside and play.
SPEAKER_04: What he hated was timeout.
SPEAKER_04: He would sit on his bed and just wail.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, just wail.
SPEAKER_04: And uh, because he hated sitting.
SPEAKER_04: He wanted to always play outside, do something.
SPEAKER_04: And um that was that was him, but discipline, especially for boys, I feel like, is even for girls too, but especially for boys, I feel like is uh needed, is a is a very necessary thing.
SPEAKER_01: Um it's humbling to be a parent and realize that you're in that role and you're so imperfect.
SPEAKER_01: And I mean there's times you do not, especially with teenagers, you just do not know what to do.
SPEAKER_01: And you have to remember that God put you in this role, and He's um you know, He's gonna give you wisdom to make the right decisions, but my mother always tells me that she's like we made all our mistakes on you, and I said, Oh great, thanks.
SPEAKER_04: I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_04: That makes me feel better.
SPEAKER_04: That makes me feel better, and uh the but there is uh I I you know and I think it's important as parents, and you know, my mom and I were talking about it last night, and I mean I know she beats herself up over that.
SPEAKER_04: I mean, she you know, um she's mentioned that like you know, in times that she's disciplined me, she didn't discipline there'd be times when she didn't discipline me out of a love for me.
SPEAKER_04: She disciplined me because she was mad.
SPEAKER_04: She was angry.
SPEAKER_04: And first I said, Mom, that's okay.
SPEAKER_04: That's okay.
SPEAKER_04: I don't think you're angry.
SPEAKER_04: I you know, I don't think it's wrong.
SPEAKER_04: I don't think it's wrong to discipline someone because you're angry.
SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, it's like you know, I ideally, you know, probably she's probably angry because she wants me to be better.
SPEAKER_04: You know, she wants me to not do this.
SPEAKER_04: Or she doesn't she wants me to not slam my brother into the wall and put a big old hole in it, you know.
SPEAKER_04: You know, that's you know, that's it's probably it's probably a fair want, but um discipline is uh as it as as Hebrews 12 mentions, it it trains us for um for um righteousness and and holiness um and to be disciplined adults.
SPEAKER_04: It says it, I think it mentioned in there that undisciplined children are illegitimate children.
SPEAKER_04: Why does, well, the author of Hebrews, why does the author of Hebrews, what is what does he mean by that?
SPEAKER_04: Why would they be illegitimate children?
SPEAKER_02: Illegitimate means that they don't have a father figure, or maybe typically, generally, a father figure, so that would make them illegitimate.
SPEAKER_02: So if there's no presence of a father in their lives, wouldn't that make them illegitimate?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I guess it could also be that you know, for a child who had no inheritance, for a child who had no future, because they were illegitimate, people might say, Why would you invest in them?
SPEAKER_00: Why would you even care?
SPEAKER_00: Why would you even discipline them?
SPEAKER_00: They have no future, so invest in your legitimate children kind of a thing in that culture.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: It means they don't belong, and they act like they don't belong.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: But they're they're not acting like they're part of a community, and no one's even training them to be part of a community.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and almost as if that there's a father still in the presence of the child.
SPEAKER_04: Um, that they're but but there's no but the but the parents, the father, the mother, they discipline, you know, because I I I think I see discipline ultimately now as as as it says, as as grace, as love.
SPEAKER_04: And when parents do not discipline their children, um it can be said that it is because that they really don't care how they grow up to be.
SPEAKER_04: They're indifferent to it.
SPEAKER_02: If they are not disciplined, they think they don't care.
SPEAKER_02: So I'll just act out.
SPEAKER_08: So what's the opposite end of that spectrum?
unknown: Right.
SPEAKER_08: We get to it in chap in verse 4.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, fathers do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
SPEAKER_04: I think other I think other passages, like you know, the fear and admonition of the Lord, other translations say it, say it that way, or uh I can't remember if there's another passage in scripture that mentioned that, but I think I think it's just enough, you know, other translations say that, you know, in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
SPEAKER_08: What does it mean to provoke a child to anger?
SPEAKER_05: Well, you over-gescipline, I would guess.
SPEAKER_05: Over-discipline.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what I remember the version I first memorized this in as a child that used the word exasperated.
unknown: That was the biggest word I knew at the time.
unknown: When I understood what that meant, it's just like exasperated.
SPEAKER_02: I've seen some parents pull the strings, they they kind of irritate and they know they're going to, and I just can't imagine doing that.
SPEAKER_02: But I've seen it, you know, back in Missouri when when a parent would pick and pick and pick, and see, I do that with dogs.
SPEAKER_04: I like to but it's different with children, but I like to invoke dogs and get them all riled up when I'm not supposed to, but so maybe I'm not ready to be a parent.
SPEAKER_04: Maybe I'm not ready to be a parent yet.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, burn a bit of your dog sitter.
SPEAKER_04: No, don't want to burn a bigger dog sitting.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: You don't have to worry about being asked to do that.
SPEAKER_04: Don't don't call me.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I said that on purpose.
SPEAKER_01: I'm dog sitting right now.
SPEAKER_01: Oh that's right.
SPEAKER_01: Robin, Robin's your dog sitter.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, almost but also that it's almost that sentiment of of tough love, but without the love.
SPEAKER_04: You're just tough.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: You're just kind of brutal.
SPEAKER_04: Um for brutality's sake.
SPEAKER_04: You know, you gotta grow up to be a man or you know, something like that, or or um and I've seen it, you know, as well with with mothers and and their and their female daughter, and their female children as well, and then with their daughters, um, where it can kind of be that same thing where um a level of I guess brutality or harshness there that um maybe goes a step or two too far.
SPEAKER_01: And you're disciplining your children to teach them.
SPEAKER_01: It's not for your not to feed your ego or to to make to put you in control, it's it's to train your children, and there's a difference.
SPEAKER_04: Now, my question with this is when when does this end?
SPEAKER_04: As children, we're all children.
SPEAKER_04: When it comes to honoring our father and mother, when does that end?
SPEAKER_04: Or does it end it doesn't end on obey?
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there honor and obey in my mind are two different things.
SPEAKER_01: I in my mind, my son has to obey us as long as he's living under our roof.
SPEAKER_01: When he's an adult and he's married and he's supporting himself, he doesn't really have to obey us anymore, but I still hope he will honor us.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
SPEAKER_09: Um respect us.
SPEAKER_09: Well, actually, my daughter I she gets mad at me because I said, I gotta get my daughter's permission to do things.
SPEAKER_09: So it goes full circle.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_09: She says, No, it doesn't.
SPEAKER_09: I suggest it is.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, there's certain things she just tell me now when I do please.
SPEAKER_09: Because she knows she she looks after me now because that's I have to obey my doctor.
SPEAKER_04: That's my grandpa now.
SPEAKER_04: He's 79.
SPEAKER_04: His my my grandma passed a few years ago, and especially when it comes to things of health things, my grandpa is like, you know, put some tape around it and you're good.
SPEAKER_04: Um, or you know, uh drink some water and it's gonna cure cancer or something, you know.
SPEAKER_04: I that's just that's just his, you know, he's he for his meds, like he just like, oh I got some old, you know, you know, animal vet pills.
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I don't think I don't think you should be taking pills from that are meant for pigs and cows, Grandpa, but um he takes them, you know.
SPEAKER_04: That's just that's that's oh yeah, oh that's you know, he's old school.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but you know, when it comes to those things, my mom and aunt, they're like, no, you're not, you're not gonna, no, you're gonna you're gonna go to that checkup.
SPEAKER_01: Is it just reverses because everyone's think about that the way you treat your children is the way they're gonna treat you when you're old.
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, like but I mean, yeah, my relationship with my parents certainly changed.
SPEAKER_04: When I was 16, and you know, uh I had a curfew.
SPEAKER_04: I'm home by nine o'clock.
SPEAKER_04: I better be.
SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm 27 now.
SPEAKER_04: You know, do I have to be home by nine o'clock?
SPEAKER_04: You better be.
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
SPEAKER_04: Yes, sir Alan.
SPEAKER_04: Um, but the like I call my parents all the time.
SPEAKER_04: And because one, I respect them, I honor them, I enjoy them.
SPEAKER_04: Uh I wish they would move down here.
SPEAKER_04: And it but yeah, they they they understand as well.
SPEAKER_04: It's like, listen, we don't here's our opinion, here's our thought, deal with it as you wish.
SPEAKER_04: And uh, we'd encourage you to do this, and we think this is best for you, but you're a grown man.
SPEAKER_01: You can do what you want, and in honoring them, you will take their opinion into consideration.
SPEAKER_04: Right, and not just say, no, you're stupid, I'm not even gonna listen to you.
SPEAKER_04: Uh they're not stupid, they're smart, so uh, and they love me.
SPEAKER_04: And so yeah, it changes, but that never ends.
SPEAKER_04: Um and in terms of certainly the honoring portion of that.
SPEAKER_04: Um and even, well, maybe even still obey in some in some respects.
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, not necessarily a a blind kind of yes dad, yes mom, you know, when you're when you're younger, but there's still a level of obedience, I think, to our parents.
SPEAKER_04: That's part of the honor, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04: I I think.
SPEAKER_04: I think it is part of it.
SPEAKER_04: Um it does change, like you said, Jill, I think, but uh I think there is still a portion of obedience to our parents even in our adult lives.
SPEAKER_04: But I you know it's not a I don't know.
SPEAKER_04: What what do you guys think on that?
SPEAKER_03: Is do we still obeying when he Well I I think when they get Julie's dad is who I'm thinking of.
SPEAKER_03: He's 96 and he's got really bad memory issues, and I I kind of jokingly said, but I really meant it that she she now has a son to take care of because he can't really take care of himself.
SPEAKER_03: He's at an assisted living place, but he gets confused and calls all hours of the day at night, you know, wanting things that don't have to be done then, and so it's like she has a son now.
SPEAKER_03: To me, that's part of honor.
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, taking care of them, and maybe not being obedient to what the what they want and what they say, you know, if they're not capable of making those decisions and stuff, right?
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's a way of giving back, you know, they raised you and now they're the child.
SPEAKER_04: Right.
SPEAKER_04: So I watched my grandma and grandpa go through that with my great-grandpa.
SPEAKER_04: My great I was fortunate to know to have two sets of my great-grandparents in my life.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and one of them, my my grand my mom's dad's parents, um were in my life for a long time.
SPEAKER_04: My great-grandmother passed when I was a freshman in high school, and my great-grandpa passed, I think, uh, I think around 2019.
SPEAKER_04: So a long time.
SPEAKER_04: He lived to 96.
SPEAKER_04: And but in those times, you know, in that time from when his wife, you know, passed to then, you know, it was oh yeah, Marion and I, we went out and grabbed lunch yesterday.
SPEAKER_04: It's like Grandpa Jean, you now he didn't, you know, it's like what do you say to that?
SPEAKER_04: But my grandma especially, you know, had and grandpa, you know, it it they were almost had it, you know, they were there every day, twice a day.
SPEAKER_04: Um, and like you said, you almost kind of do have another son-ish that you're taking care of.
SPEAKER_04: Um but in that way you're you are honoring them as your as your father or as your mother in those instances.
SPEAKER_04: So um, so then the last five verses of this section, verses five through nine, the ESV translation says bondservants, other translations says slaves.
SPEAKER_04: Um now our understanding of slavery in modern-day slavery is quite different than biblical, you know, quote-unquote slavery, or at least in what what Paul's referring to here.
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, bond servant, you know, it's it's an indentured servitude, right?
SPEAKER_04: You know, they're you're you're working off a you know, you owe a debt to somebody and you're working that off.
SPEAKER_04: Um, or um that's typically how how it was done, correct?
SPEAKER_04: Did you have any more context on that?
SPEAKER_08: Right.
SPEAKER_08: I was just thinking, you know, Paul's not condoning slavery in the sense that we what he's getting at here is just like every other relationship that he talked about, in this relationship, we have to see it from the perspective of what Paul is teaching throughout, that we are not who we were.
SPEAKER_08: We've been saved, we've been made alive together with Christ.
SPEAKER_08: And just as the the uh servant, bond servant or slave is made in the image of God, the master has a master in heaven as well.
SPEAKER_08: That this is about how we treat one another, and we need to treat one another in the way that God has given, has prescribed in his word.
SPEAKER_08: So the focus is on each other being created in the image of God, and we are to be placed in this position of service to the master or the employer, the employee to the employer, and we are to honor them as far as we can as long as it's legal and it's honoring, you know, it's we work, we work as unto the Lord, not to the the uh master or the the the boss.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
SPEAKER_09: And so you know I've I I've lived by that passage.
SPEAKER_09: Truthfully, and the way I treat through my employees.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09: Actually, uh I had a lot of people that couldn't understand why I was so successful because they didn't like my way of management.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, but I but I tried to follow the biblical concept of it.
SPEAKER_04: Right, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: That's verse nine.
SPEAKER_09: I got sent to you know, be more forceful, you know.
SPEAKER_09: Yeah, but I got everything they needed to eat.
SPEAKER_09: All my factories were profitable factories, yeah.
SPEAKER_09: But they didn't like the way I treated my people.
SPEAKER_09: Right.
SPEAKER_09: Sure.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that's that's verse nine, right?
SPEAKER_04: Masters, do the same to them and stop your threatening.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: Knowing that he who is both their master and yours is in heaven, yeah.
SPEAKER_04: And that there is no partiality with them.
SPEAKER_09: No, basically I use that passage primarily of the way I conducted factories.
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that's and that you know, that's in in in part, you know, this is a like in my circumstance with with the owner of our company, you know, um, you know, honoring him and and you know, you know, you know, obeying him as a as my boss.
SPEAKER_04: If if he wants me to do something, I'll do it.
SPEAKER_04: Um and and um for for the company and and for the team.
SPEAKER_04: But uh now my boss is not a believer.
SPEAKER_04: Um and I already know that like you know, in a couple weeks he'll be downtown with his wife and their friends marching in the pride parade.
SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm I you know if he were to say, team, we're doing we're doing this as a team together, everyone has to come.
SPEAKER_04: And I can't say yes to that.
SPEAKER_04: You know.
SPEAKER_04: I would actually I I will be going to the pride parade with a handful of other men from around the city, but for different reasons.
SPEAKER_04: But uh we'll be singing hymns and and uh praying with people.
SPEAKER_04: I'm hope I'm hoping it's a fruitful time.
SPEAKER_04: So um, but this uh we are to you know uh obey uh our earthly masters, whether that's parents, bosses, uh, whoever that be, um as we would as we would Christ.
SPEAKER_04: But it does say there in verse 6, not by the way of eye service.
SPEAKER_04: Or as people please as people pleasers.
SPEAKER_04: You know, as when I hear I when I hear you know eye service, I think of Matthew 6, right?
SPEAKER_04: When the Far, you know, don't be like the Pharisees who sit on the corner and you know say elaborate words just you know so that people can see them and how how great and smart they are.
SPEAKER_04: Um but uh but we do it uh for Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
SPEAKER_04: And that I think that's you know that's been Paul's key throughout Ephesians 5, Ephesians 6, Ephesians 4.
SPEAKER_04: Um, that all this is from it comes from the heart and the heart that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_08: Remembering who we are, yeah, it affects how we think and how we act.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
SPEAKER_04: And it and it and I think I mentioned earlier, we I think we I kind of talked about about this earlier in Ephesians, I can't remember when, but when it comes to obedience, because that's been something that I've been thinking a lot about, is what does Christian obedience look like?
SPEAKER_04: Because I don't want to be antinomian.
SPEAKER_04: We don't we don't want to be we don't want to be people like, oh great, I'm saying it, I can do whatever I want now.
SPEAKER_05: Most modern evangelicals, I think, believe that based on my experience.
SPEAKER_04: Yes, and they a lot of times, you know, yes, I I've met people who basically think a call to repentance is legalism.
SPEAKER_04: It's not legalism.
SPEAKER_04: Uh and so, but what does Christian obedience look like?
SPEAKER_04: Well, at first it flows from the heart.
SPEAKER_04: And and I think that's what Paul's point here.
SPEAKER_04: It's whether it's whether it's the bondservant to the master, whether it's a child to um to their parents, whether it's a wife to her husband, or a husband to her wife to his wife, or parents to their children, or masters to their bondservants.
SPEAKER_04: Ultimately it's from the heart, a heart that dwells within the spirit, and a heart whose uh or the spirit of the mind is set on Christ and not on self or not on things of uh of the world.
SPEAKER_04: So well, great stuff.
SPEAKER_04: Any other final thoughts before we get out of here?
SPEAKER_01: Most of this, as well as a lot of other commandments in the Bible, fall under do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
SPEAKER_04: That's a great solution of it.
SPEAKER_01: Treat others the way we want to be treated.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it works.
SPEAKER_09: It does that's why I said managing factors.
SPEAKER_09: I I made it work.
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they don't call it the golden rule for nothing.
SPEAKER_04: It's not called the golden rule for nothing.
SPEAKER_04: So good deal.
SPEAKER_08: Well, praise how I will.
SPEAKER_08: Father, we are thankful for your love, thankful for the finished work of Christ that has accomplished our salvation.
SPEAKER_08: Well, we we thank you that you have given us your word so that we would know how to please you and honor you and how to live with one another in a way that honors you.
SPEAKER_08: Lord, help us to do that, help us to to um live out who we are as um your children, as those who are redeemed by Christ.
SPEAKER_08: And uh, Lord, we just pray that you would um continue to make us more like Christ and in the way we conduct ourselves, and that we would be um people pleasing to you.
SPEAKER_08: And we just ask that you'd bless us in Christ's name, amen.