WEBVTT 00:00:32.030 --> 00:00:33.630 Okay, let's pray. 00:00:35.950 --> 00:00:41.310 Lord, thank you for bringing us here together safely on this beautiful morning. 00:00:41.710 --> 00:00:48.750 Lord, thank you for all of your promises to us and how they all find their yes and amen in Christ. 00:00:48.989 --> 00:00:56.829 Thank you, Lord, for the benefits we enjoy in this life, and thank you for the benefits we enjoy at death in Him and through Him. 00:00:57.070 --> 00:01:03.949 Lord, help us to reflect well on these things today as we consider what happens when we die. 00:01:04.509 --> 00:01:10.750 Lord, thank you that this doesn't have to be a scary thing for us to talk about, but it's a hopeful thing. 00:01:10.909 --> 00:01:12.189 It's a helpful thing. 00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:23.069 It's a thing that gives us encouragement, gives us hope, so that we don't have to grieve as those who grieve without that hope. 00:01:23.469 --> 00:01:26.509 So, Lord, as always, we're dependent upon your Holy Spirit. 00:01:26.750 --> 00:01:29.310 Help us to understand and apply better your word. 00:01:29.549 --> 00:01:30.909 We pray in Jesus' name. 00:01:31.229 --> 00:01:31.870 Amen. 00:01:32.750 --> 00:01:39.229 Alright, so these past several weeks we have been talking about the benefits of redemption that we enjoy in this life. 00:01:39.389 --> 00:01:42.909 We've talked about justification, adoption, sanctification. 00:01:43.150 --> 00:01:51.389 Last week we talked about assurance of God's love, peace of conscience, joy in the Holy Spirit, increase of grace, and perseverance to the end. 00:01:51.710 --> 00:02:00.750 Today, we're talking about the benefits that we enjoy in union with Christ that are applied to us specifically at death. 00:02:01.789 --> 00:02:10.669 So, before we get into the catechism answer and so on, uh how would you answer that question? 00:02:10.830 --> 00:02:14.030 What are the benefits of dying in Christ? 00:02:14.270 --> 00:02:16.349 Or what happens to believers when we die? 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:18.109 I'll ask it more simply. 00:02:18.830 --> 00:02:19.710 What happens? 00:02:20.430 --> 00:02:20.590 Yeah. 00:02:23.710 --> 00:02:29.789 We move from this corrupted place to a place that God has made just for us. 00:02:29.949 --> 00:02:38.030 And it may be an intermediate place that are, you know, I'm not gonna get all dogmatic about exactly what it is or anything. 00:02:38.349 --> 00:02:39.710 I'll get dogmatic about it. 00:02:44.829 --> 00:02:45.709 It's all about evidence. 00:02:45.870 --> 00:02:47.310 And what does the evidence support? 00:02:47.469 --> 00:03:09.229 The evidence supports that God is going to be with me in my death and never leave me nor forsake me, and he's going to be with me and with whatever my experiences after death, it will be made under his good, loving, sovereign power. 00:03:09.629 --> 00:03:10.750 How's that? 00:03:12.909 --> 00:03:13.949 You're looking at me? 00:03:15.069 --> 00:03:15.870 James approved. 00:03:18.269 --> 00:03:19.150 Is this gonna be on the test? 00:03:25.870 --> 00:03:26.349 Teresa? 00:03:26.829 --> 00:03:30.429 We can rejoice that we will have one more stand. 00:03:31.870 --> 00:03:32.189 Yeah. 00:03:32.669 --> 00:03:33.310 We can. 00:03:33.870 --> 00:03:36.030 Uh guy in the back row playing on your phone. 00:03:36.109 --> 00:03:37.150 You had your hand up. 00:03:37.629 --> 00:03:40.030 I'm just confirming I'm playing with my phone. 00:03:40.909 --> 00:03:41.709 Oh, okay. 00:03:42.030 --> 00:03:43.229 Appreciate that. 00:03:43.469 --> 00:03:46.669 You're looking up scripture references because you're that holy. 00:03:48.429 --> 00:03:50.669 Those candies aren't going to crush themselves, man. 00:03:55.069 --> 00:03:58.509 Every time you crush a candy, a Bible verse pops out, right? 00:03:58.989 --> 00:04:00.669 So it's righteous. 00:04:01.069 --> 00:04:07.709 So what we're talking about today is the intermediate state. 00:04:08.109 --> 00:04:10.109 What happens to believers when we die? 00:04:10.189 --> 00:04:11.469 Where do we go? 00:04:13.229 --> 00:04:18.430 When we say the intermediate state, we mean intermediate. 00:04:19.550 --> 00:04:27.550 A lot of Christians think, a lot of Christians think that when you die, you go to heaven, and that's the end of the story. 00:04:27.790 --> 00:04:29.389 It's actually not the end of the story. 00:04:29.470 --> 00:04:35.629 The story of Christianity isn't life after death, it's life after life after death. 00:04:35.870 --> 00:04:41.629 It's consummate life, it's glorified life, it's resurrection life in the new heavens and new earth. 00:04:41.949 --> 00:04:44.269 So we're going to talk about that new heavens and new earth. 00:04:44.350 --> 00:04:49.150 We're going to talk about the final state next week, but this week, again, we're looking at the intermediate state. 00:04:49.390 --> 00:05:06.590 And there are two popular alternatives to what we will discuss as the intermediate state that have been prevalent throughout church history, that to some extent are prevalent today, depending whether you talk to certain Protestants or certain Roman Catholics. 00:05:06.830 --> 00:05:09.390 And the first is soul sleep. 00:05:09.710 --> 00:05:14.990 And soul sleep is the idea that when we die, we go into a state of unconscious repose. 00:05:15.950 --> 00:05:26.270 Martin Luther held a position like that one, the Anabaptists, Socinians, which were kind of like 16th, 17th century rationalists. 00:05:26.590 --> 00:05:31.629 Today, Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, holds something similar to that. 00:05:31.950 --> 00:05:38.670 And advocates of the view of soul sleep base their position on the common use of sleep as a metaphor for death. 00:05:38.830 --> 00:05:39.629 Like several places. 00:05:39.790 --> 00:05:47.069 Acts 7, Acts 13, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4 talk about death as a kind of sleep. 00:05:47.310 --> 00:05:58.350 And that biblical metaphor is married to a kind of anthropological commitment to the tight unity of mind and body, or body and soul. 00:05:58.510 --> 00:06:03.710 So the idea is that as the body goes in death, the soul goes in death. 00:06:03.870 --> 00:06:12.430 And so the mind or the consciousness, in a sense, goes out of existence until the resurrection. 00:06:13.710 --> 00:06:18.750 What do you make of that idea in light of scripture? 00:06:19.550 --> 00:06:20.670 Anything come to mind? 00:06:25.550 --> 00:06:28.350 So I would assume that means immediately. 00:06:44.830 --> 00:06:49.629 And that's where those arguments would come from, is that those terms meaning are changeable in certain pastors. 00:06:50.270 --> 00:06:50.590 Yeah. 00:06:50.830 --> 00:06:59.870 Yeah, the tricky part with that is when Paul says, you know, when he's talking about when I die, depart with me to be with Christ, and he says that's better. 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:06.270 He compares the this worldly existence to a worldly, an extra-worldly existence with Christ. 00:07:06.430 --> 00:07:16.830 And it's not, you know, the sense you get there is not a sort of impersonal kind of departure, but like a personal existence in the presence of Christ for a time. 00:07:17.310 --> 00:07:22.110 Today thou shalt be with me in Ariana. 00:07:22.590 --> 00:07:24.590 That's what I was going to say. 00:07:24.830 --> 00:07:25.470 Yeah. 00:07:26.189 --> 00:07:26.830 Yeah. 00:07:27.310 --> 00:07:30.350 Alright, so you will be with me. 00:07:30.510 --> 00:07:33.710 Again, it's a personal, relational kind of thing. 00:07:34.670 --> 00:07:41.310 John Calvin, his very first published work was a work by the name of Psychopanicia. 00:07:41.629 --> 00:07:43.629 And this is what he wrote about. 00:07:43.950 --> 00:07:44.670 Soul sleep. 00:07:44.990 --> 00:07:46.750 That was his first published work. 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:49.870 It was him refuting the idea of soul sleep. 00:07:50.030 --> 00:07:53.470 And he drew on several of these texts that we're talking about. 00:07:53.710 --> 00:08:06.590 Also, Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus, where Lazarus is clearly portrayed as conscious in this sort of intermediate state of life after death. 00:08:07.710 --> 00:08:09.950 Today you will be with me in paradise. 00:08:10.670 --> 00:08:15.790 When Jesus dies, he commits his spirit not to non-being but to his father's hands. 00:08:16.030 --> 00:08:20.110 Stephen, the same kind of thing in Acts 7 when he's stone. 00:08:20.430 --> 00:08:29.230 And so we have these different pictures of a conscious, personal, relational existence in the state or in the period between life and death. 00:08:30.030 --> 00:08:41.950 You know, we can speculate about the relationship of time and eternity and what that's like, and will we experience it as just the blink of an eye, and then it will be the resurrection? 00:08:42.189 --> 00:08:43.309 I don't know. 00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:54.509 What we know is what Scripture presents to us as the state, however, we experience the flow of time in it, where we go to be in the presence of the Lord and we await the coming of the resurrection. 00:08:54.830 --> 00:08:55.629 Randy? 00:08:55.950 --> 00:09:01.950 What about in Revelation, the souls that are under the altar crying out? 00:09:02.350 --> 00:09:03.069 Crying out, yeah. 00:09:03.870 --> 00:09:04.589 Where is it? 00:09:04.750 --> 00:09:05.230 What's that? 00:09:05.709 --> 00:09:07.230 Yeah, they're in the intermediate state. 00:09:07.709 --> 00:09:15.949 To me, that's just one more evidence for a conscious kind of existence before the in between death and the consummation. 00:09:16.349 --> 00:09:24.909 So what does it mean when Jesus says to the various people about the people that he brings back from the dead that they're just sleeping? 00:09:25.309 --> 00:09:26.669 Yeah, he says they're asleep. 00:09:26.750 --> 00:09:27.629 I mean, we don't. 00:09:28.909 --> 00:09:36.349 That biblical metaphor is um yeah, it's it's it's a legit metaphor for sleep. 00:09:36.750 --> 00:09:38.829 The Bible uses that metaphor for sleep. 00:09:38.909 --> 00:09:44.990 But it's always the question with the metaphor, like how tightly does it align with the reality? 00:09:45.149 --> 00:09:46.669 Is that what Jesus is saying? 00:09:46.829 --> 00:09:49.309 That everybody who's dead is only sleeping? 00:09:49.549 --> 00:09:57.629 I think when you bring all these other things into the picture, but yeah, when Jesus brings people back from the dead, I mean he uses that metaphor. 00:09:57.709 --> 00:10:12.349 And in those contexts, especially, I think he's emphasizing the fact that, you know, as far as him and the giving of life is concerned, bringing someone back to life is as easy as waking someone up from sleep. 00:10:12.909 --> 00:10:14.349 I think that's a lot of what's going on there. 00:10:14.669 --> 00:10:22.669 He doesn't say that they are, their soul is with God, like a dead person with me. 00:10:23.389 --> 00:10:24.829 He says they're asleep. 00:10:25.309 --> 00:10:30.269 He's not snatching them back from God or heaven or whatever. 00:10:31.469 --> 00:10:33.230 I don't maybe he is. 00:10:33.389 --> 00:10:35.789 I mean, he doesn't explain it, right? 00:10:35.949 --> 00:10:44.829 Like this question that we have about the precise mechanics of the intermediate state, like in those circumstances, he's not at all interested in answering it. 00:10:45.149 --> 00:10:51.309 So it's it's kind of like we have to weigh everything on balance again. 00:10:51.469 --> 00:10:54.189 Uh maybe it becomes formulated as well. 00:10:54.269 --> 00:11:04.349 That's one of the constructs of the social argument is in Genesis is not reading the dust of the earth redirect the life of the soul. 00:11:04.429 --> 00:11:08.669 So it's a combination of life and the body to construct the soul. 00:11:08.829 --> 00:11:13.789 That's part of the things we're gonna hear in the argument is that it doesn't form to it. 00:11:14.269 --> 00:11:16.909 It's part of like the light law has electricity applied to it. 00:11:17.870 --> 00:11:22.669 If you remove one of the components, then the light seems to exist, and the law has electricity to apply it. 00:11:22.829 --> 00:11:26.509 So you have a lot of formula and components to it in the army. 00:11:26.909 --> 00:11:27.309 Yeah. 00:11:27.469 --> 00:11:27.789 Yeah. 00:11:28.110 --> 00:11:29.549 What about poor Lazarus? 00:11:29.709 --> 00:11:31.469 I mean, he was in paradise. 00:11:32.110 --> 00:11:34.829 And then hey, he's in paradise, and then Jesus said, come out. 00:11:35.069 --> 00:11:36.269 Lazarus, you gotta call, man. 00:11:36.349 --> 00:11:40.269 You gotta says he's he had a raw idea. 00:11:40.909 --> 00:11:42.589 He was like, I gotta go back. 00:11:42.829 --> 00:11:43.789 I don't know, man. 00:11:44.189 --> 00:11:51.389 You know, Paul in a vision got swept up to the third heaven and he didn't, you know, complain about coming back. 00:11:51.789 --> 00:12:04.990 He, you know, I think he he saw that as a kind of I mean, if if God were get to give you a glimpse of his glory now, it's like, yeah, you're gonna want to just stay there. 00:12:05.149 --> 00:12:07.870 You're gonna be like Peter on the mountaintop. 00:12:08.029 --> 00:12:10.269 Can we just, you know, pitch some tents here and hang out? 00:12:10.509 --> 00:12:11.469 Because this is great. 00:12:11.709 --> 00:12:12.669 This is great. 00:12:12.990 --> 00:12:24.110 But I I think Lazarus would probably have had the same experience where it's like you've been given this glimpse of glory, this glimpse of paradise, this taste of heaven for a reason. 00:12:24.349 --> 00:12:29.709 And I think in the final analysis, Lazarus probably would have been cool with that. 00:12:30.110 --> 00:12:32.029 They're gonna tell your story forever. 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:38.189 Not really, they're gonna tell Jesus' story forever, and you're you know, the key instrument in it. 00:12:38.589 --> 00:12:45.709 Alright, so soul sleep, that's that's that's a common view, that a somewhat common view in the in the history of the church. 00:12:45.949 --> 00:12:51.949 Uh another, maybe more top-of-mind view is the Roman Catholic view of purgatory. 00:12:54.189 --> 00:13:00.349 According to Roman Catholic, you know, reading Hebrews 9 27, right after death comes judgment. 00:13:00.589 --> 00:13:05.389 So there's a kind of intermediate judgment before the final judgment. 00:13:05.549 --> 00:13:11.949 And if you die in a state of mortal sin, then you go straight to hell and you suffer eternal conscious torment. 00:13:12.349 --> 00:13:22.029 If you die in a perfect state of grace, lacking mortal or venial sin, then you go straight into heaven and you enjoy the beatific vision. 00:13:22.189 --> 00:13:24.189 Uh does anyone get to do that? 00:13:24.509 --> 00:13:25.629 Roman Catholicism? 00:13:25.789 --> 00:13:27.629 Has anyone ever died in such a state? 00:13:27.870 --> 00:13:28.349 Do you know? 00:13:28.589 --> 00:13:30.110 Well, Mary former Catholics. 00:13:30.429 --> 00:13:36.269 Yes, Mary didn't die, she was assumed because she was perfect, so that death would not impact her. 00:13:36.349 --> 00:13:40.429 But as far as if you're not talking about Mary, no, I don't know. 00:13:40.589 --> 00:13:45.870 I mean, unless you had your confession and walked out and got hit by a bus within like eight seconds. 00:13:45.949 --> 00:13:46.349 Yeah. 00:13:46.909 --> 00:13:49.149 Then I think you were clean enough to make it. 00:13:49.549 --> 00:13:52.189 That was always my anxiety being a Roman Catholic. 00:13:52.509 --> 00:13:55.149 Like, how long has it been since I went to confession? 00:13:55.309 --> 00:13:57.230 Because those sins really rack up. 00:13:57.709 --> 00:14:12.189 So if you if you die in a state of imperfect grace, according to Roman Catholicism, so that means you know maybe you have venial sin uh but no mortal sin, then you go to purgatory. 00:14:12.349 --> 00:14:18.829 And purgatory is a state of temporary punishment for those who have not yet fully paid for their transgressions. 00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:26.269 So Hebrews 12, 14 says that we ought to strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord, right? 00:14:27.469 --> 00:14:35.069 So purgatory is the place where the imperfect process of sanctification and holiness can be completed. 00:14:36.829 --> 00:14:38.909 Where do you find that in the Bible? 00:14:39.149 --> 00:14:41.389 Well, not quite the Bible, but almost the Bible. 00:14:41.469 --> 00:14:52.829 2 Maccabees 12, 39 through 46 speaks of Judas Maccabees making propitiation for those who had died in order that they might be released from their sin. 00:14:53.469 --> 00:15:05.789 So there's this idea that there are people who have died but are still held fast by their sin in some way, and Judas Maccabees made some kind of offering in order to propitiate and release that sin. 00:15:06.029 --> 00:15:16.990 So, you know, fast forward a couple thousand years, and when the coin into the coffer clings, a soul from purgatory springs. 00:15:17.949 --> 00:15:23.549 Which is what really tipped Martin Luther over the edge and got the Protestant Reformation going. 00:15:24.189 --> 00:15:49.709 Clement of Alexandria, early church father, important church father, developed the idea of purgatory out of the liturgical practice for praying for the dead and a desire to explain how maybe somebody who had come to faith in Jesus, but they were clearly not very sanctified or completely sanctified, and then they died. 00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:51.629 Okay, well, how does that work? 00:15:51.789 --> 00:15:53.709 Because they seem like a really imperfect saint. 00:15:53.789 --> 00:15:56.189 How do they come into the presence of Jesus? 00:15:58.829 --> 00:16:07.230 This is what Gregory the Great, who is the first Pope Pope, what he said in Matthew about Matthew 12, 32. 00:16:07.469 --> 00:16:14.589 He said, as for certain lesser faults, we must believe that before final judgment there is a purifying fire. 00:16:14.909 --> 00:16:23.309 For he who is the truth declares that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be pardoned, either in this age or in the age which is to come. 00:16:24.349 --> 00:16:28.509 So before final judgment, a purifying fire. 00:16:28.990 --> 00:16:33.789 Which, you know, in the final analysis, uh, it's better than eternal fire. 00:16:34.029 --> 00:16:42.509 So if there's something you can do to get ready for the final judgment so that you don't go into hell forever, it sounds like a good deal, even if it takes 10,000. 00:16:42.909 --> 00:16:43.309 Moneymaker. 00:16:43.549 --> 00:16:45.309 Purgatory is a moneymaker, too. 00:16:45.709 --> 00:16:56.909 So, how, you know, thinking again in an evaluative kind of mode, how do we respond to something like purgatory? 00:16:57.149 --> 00:17:02.990 What sort of biblical and theological ideas pop up in your mind to say, eh, I don't think that's right. 00:17:04.750 --> 00:17:11.870 Purgatory suggests, and maybe outright states, that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not enough. 00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:17.150 So that in and of itself is striking to the conscience. 00:17:17.390 --> 00:17:18.029 Right. 00:17:20.430 --> 00:17:21.710 It makes a transactional. 00:17:22.910 --> 00:17:25.150 It does make it transactional. 00:17:28.190 --> 00:17:38.349 Yeah, the so on the biblical score, we want to be able to say that purgatory has no direct biblical support. 00:17:39.309 --> 00:17:53.149 There's this one obscure line uttered in a deutero-canonical book that we don't recognize as authoritative that maybe would point towards something kind of sort of like purgatory. 00:17:54.029 --> 00:17:58.670 But the Bible, the canon of scripture, has no support for this kind of thing. 00:17:58.909 --> 00:18:08.909 And an even stronger counter-argument, I think, is by pointing to all that the Bible says about the sufficiency of Christ and our doctrine of justification. 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:12.909 These are core differences with Roman Catholics. 00:18:12.990 --> 00:18:15.069 But what do we believe about justification? 00:18:15.149 --> 00:18:25.309 It's the act of God's free grace whereby he forgives all our sins and receives it as righteous in his sight only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and received by faith alone. 00:18:25.549 --> 00:18:27.149 So, one and done. 00:18:28.349 --> 00:18:31.309 If we are in Christ, we are justified. 00:18:31.470 --> 00:18:34.349 We are declared innocent before the throne of God. 00:18:34.509 --> 00:18:39.629 So if that's the case, then what room do we have for a doctrine of purgatory? 00:18:39.869 --> 00:18:41.230 Jesus paid it all. 00:18:41.869 --> 00:18:43.069 Jesus paid it all. 00:18:43.309 --> 00:18:50.829 We don't have to go into some kind of holding tank after death to pay something more if Jesus already paid it all. 00:18:52.029 --> 00:18:57.950 Well, in saying, you know, if you believe in purgatory, you're believing that you don't have all of the righteousness of Christ. 00:18:58.269 --> 00:18:58.909 Yeah. 00:18:59.149 --> 00:18:59.309 Yeah. 00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:00.990 Yeah. 00:19:01.389 --> 00:19:05.629 So it cuts right right at the heart of our assurance of pardon. 00:19:05.869 --> 00:19:07.389 Our assurance of salvation. 00:19:07.629 --> 00:19:07.789 Right? 00:19:08.269 --> 00:19:13.230 Same thing with the fact that you say today is the day for salvation. 00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:16.509 You won't get those second chances that in the future. 00:19:16.589 --> 00:19:17.549 That's not a thought. 00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:24.109 Today is the day for salvation while you're still here and are right. 00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:32.109 Alright, so those are two wrong, from my, from our perspective, views on the intermediate state. 00:19:32.269 --> 00:19:33.869 Let's talk about the right one. 00:19:34.109 --> 00:19:36.589 This is shorter catechism question 37. 00:19:36.750 --> 00:19:40.349 What benefits do believers receive from Christ at death? 00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:52.349 The souls of believers are at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory, and their bodies, being still united to Christ, do remain in their graves till the resurrection. 00:19:53.470 --> 00:19:55.549 So, let's talk about the parts. 00:19:55.629 --> 00:19:58.349 And we'll start by talking about death itself. 00:19:58.909 --> 00:20:00.909 Is death a part of life? 00:20:03.549 --> 00:20:05.470 Yes, descriptively it is. 00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:06.509 Should it be? 00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:09.309 Where does death come from? 00:20:10.349 --> 00:20:10.750 What's that? 00:20:10.829 --> 00:20:11.869 It's not supposed to be, right? 00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:13.789 It's not supposed to be. 00:20:15.629 --> 00:20:16.109 What's that? 00:20:17.869 --> 00:20:18.190 Right. 00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:20.109 Death is the wage of sin. 00:20:20.909 --> 00:20:23.069 Death is a consequence of sin. 00:20:23.470 --> 00:20:26.349 Specifically speaking about human death. 00:20:26.990 --> 00:20:29.629 People can argument about plants and animals in the garden. 00:20:29.869 --> 00:20:33.149 That's that's not, we don't need to talk about that today. 00:20:33.389 --> 00:20:37.869 But in scripture, when it comes to human beings, we think we see three types of death. 00:20:38.109 --> 00:20:41.069 The first is the most obvious, physical death. 00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:46.430 Genesis 42, 38. 00:20:47.069 --> 00:20:49.230 Uh, this is Jacob speaking. 00:20:49.470 --> 00:20:56.029 My son shall not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he is the only one left dead. 00:20:56.349 --> 00:21:01.149 You know, he's it's just everyday, quotidian kind of dead, not alive anymore. 00:21:01.309 --> 00:21:03.149 The breath has left his body. 00:21:04.190 --> 00:21:05.950 That's one type of death. 00:21:06.269 --> 00:21:09.629 Another type of death is spiritual death. 00:21:09.789 --> 00:21:13.309 And spiritual death is the separation of a person from God. 00:21:13.549 --> 00:21:15.629 Ephesians 2, 1 through 2. 00:21:15.869 --> 00:21:19.389 Paul talking to people who are physically alive. 00:21:20.349 --> 00:21:32.750 You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 00:21:33.470 --> 00:21:36.990 So, we got physical death, we got spiritual death. 00:21:37.710 --> 00:21:47.230 You know, when God told Adam, You shall not eat of the tree, he held the consequence before him and said, In the day that you eat of it, you will surely die. 00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:52.509 And surely Adam heard that as kind of physical death, right? 00:21:52.589 --> 00:21:55.549 Or maybe comprehensive death, whatever that would have meant to him. 00:21:55.710 --> 00:21:56.829 But he didn't die. 00:21:57.069 --> 00:21:58.990 Does that mean God broke his promise? 00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:02.430 Does that mean that God was bluffing? 00:22:02.670 --> 00:22:02.990 No. 00:22:03.309 --> 00:22:04.190 He did die. 00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:07.069 He just did not die physically, not yet. 00:22:07.309 --> 00:22:11.069 He died spiritually, in that he was alienated from God. 00:22:11.309 --> 00:22:20.750 And the third type of death that we see in Scripture is eternal death, which is the finalization of that alienation between a person and God. 00:22:21.069 --> 00:22:26.190 Revelation 20, verse 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. 00:22:26.430 --> 00:22:29.710 Over such the second death has no power. 00:22:30.029 --> 00:22:34.509 But they will be priests of God and Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. 00:22:34.750 --> 00:22:36.430 Or Revelation 21:8. 00:22:36.829 --> 00:22:49.789 As for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. 00:22:52.430 --> 00:23:11.470 So believers are saved from the second death, the alienation between the person and God that's reconciled through Christ, and we are kept from that third form of death, which is eternal death, or what Revelation calls the second death. 00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:22.909 But in this age, on this side of glory, we are not all kept from that first form of death, that physical death. 00:23:23.549 --> 00:23:24.589 We still experience it. 00:23:24.670 --> 00:23:27.069 And it was a lot, it was an issue, right? 00:23:27.629 --> 00:23:29.149 In the New Testament. 00:23:32.829 --> 00:23:34.190 1 Thessalonians 4. 00:23:34.349 --> 00:23:39.069 Paul writes to them to encourage them. 00:23:40.109 --> 00:23:41.389 Because there's a problem. 00:23:41.789 --> 00:23:43.149 We've put our faith in Christ. 00:23:43.309 --> 00:23:43.869 We believe in him. 00:23:44.029 --> 00:23:44.990 We have eternal life. 00:23:46.909 --> 00:23:48.190 Bob put his faith in Christ. 00:23:48.269 --> 00:23:49.149 He has eternal life. 00:23:49.230 --> 00:23:50.109 But Bob just died. 00:23:51.149 --> 00:23:52.269 How do I make sense of that? 00:23:53.549 --> 00:23:57.950 And Paul says to him, I don't want you to grieve as those who have no hope. 00:23:58.109 --> 00:24:01.069 Because the trumpet will sound and Christ will descend. 00:24:01.149 --> 00:24:03.789 And those of us who are still alive will meet him in the air. 00:24:03.869 --> 00:24:09.389 Or the dead will rise first to meet him in the air, and those of us who are still alive will meet him too. 00:24:09.629 --> 00:24:22.509 Alright, so we're saved from our spiritual death, we're kept from eternal death, and yet we still experience unless Jesus comes back first physical death. 00:24:22.750 --> 00:24:28.349 So this catechism question helps us to think about alright, when that happens, what happens? 00:24:28.670 --> 00:24:31.549 First it talks about the souls of believers. 00:24:33.069 --> 00:24:40.269 In the ancient Greek world, there was uh there was a kind of dualism between body and soul. 00:24:40.430 --> 00:24:44.269 Uh for Plata, the soul was immortal. 00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:52.109 It uh it dwelled in the world of the forms apart from and before the creation of the world. 00:24:52.269 --> 00:25:05.549 And in Neoplatonic thought, this sort of idea entered that the way you get creation of human individuals is the soul falls out of heaven in some way and inhabits a body for a time. 00:25:05.789 --> 00:25:08.909 And bodies are inherently corrupt. 00:25:09.149 --> 00:25:20.589 Bodies are bound by appetites and desires and all these sort of base kind of things that continue to pull the soul downward. 00:25:20.829 --> 00:25:22.750 And so what does salvation look like? 00:25:22.990 --> 00:25:38.670 Salvation looks like in a sense, back up the ladder of being, back to the one, back to the good, back to the beautiful, back to God, back to that disembodied state where we can just be souls again and we can get rid of the body. 00:25:38.990 --> 00:25:39.629 Right? 00:25:41.309 --> 00:25:44.589 Christianity, for the most part, rejected that. 00:25:45.069 --> 00:25:48.589 Because we are a mind-body duality. 00:25:49.710 --> 00:25:51.789 We are a soul-body duality. 00:25:51.950 --> 00:25:54.750 We are embodied souls and we are in soul bodies. 00:25:54.909 --> 00:25:58.269 God created us, body and soul. 00:25:58.589 --> 00:26:11.389 In the end of the story, like I said before, it's not a disembodied existence in heaven, it's a thoroughly embodied, glorified body existence in the new heavens and new earth. 00:26:11.950 --> 00:26:23.629 So, when we think about the souls of believers, it's really important that we don't forget that intimate connection between the soul and the body. 00:26:23.950 --> 00:26:30.509 The first half of this question will talk about what happens with the soul, and the second half will talk about what happens with the body. 00:26:30.829 --> 00:26:41.869 But we never want to think in an abstracted kind of way where, like, the real me is my soul, and my body is just the skin suit that my soul wears for a while. 00:26:42.109 --> 00:26:44.109 Completely unbiblical, right? 00:26:44.509 --> 00:26:47.789 You are your soul, you are your body both. 00:26:47.869 --> 00:26:51.789 And what you do with your body actually impacts what happens with your soul. 00:26:52.269 --> 00:26:55.710 And what you do with your soul too impacts what happens with your body. 00:26:58.269 --> 00:27:18.029 The incarnation really uh challenged any any belief that that uh diminishes God's love for the body and an appearanor, and his care for it. 00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:24.990 He entered his own creation and took on a spirit of the body. 00:27:25.309 --> 00:27:25.789 Yeah. 00:27:25.950 --> 00:27:26.269 Yeah. 00:27:26.509 --> 00:27:30.029 And he was resurrected in a material body. 00:27:30.509 --> 00:27:39.149 My you know, moment of doubt, I go right back to touch me and see the spirit, not flesh and bones that you see that I have. 00:27:39.389 --> 00:27:41.549 He's so kind to give them back to evidence. 00:27:41.789 --> 00:27:42.029 Yeah. 00:27:44.029 --> 00:27:44.430 Yeah. 00:27:44.509 --> 00:27:48.829 Um, I'm still I'm still deep in it. 00:27:49.069 --> 00:27:51.869 Hebrews 2, quote 14. 00:27:52.589 --> 00:28:00.430 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same thing. 00:28:00.589 --> 00:28:12.829 That through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver all those who, through fear of death, were subject to lifelong slavery. 00:28:13.149 --> 00:28:16.029 So just turn on that this weekend. 00:28:17.230 --> 00:28:20.990 Jesus became flesh so that he could die. 00:28:21.629 --> 00:28:23.950 Um and just thing with that. 00:28:24.589 --> 00:28:32.670 It's just, and then at Usted Kenny, we've all discussed that Jesus will always have that body, will always be flesh. 00:28:32.990 --> 00:28:42.349 Um Paul talks about we will have a perishable body that becomes imperishable for eternity. 00:28:42.909 --> 00:28:45.230 It's it's beautiful, yeah. 00:28:45.470 --> 00:28:46.349 So, yeah. 00:28:46.509 --> 00:28:48.029 I was gonna sneak that in, man. 00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:48.589 I was. 00:28:48.750 --> 00:28:50.269 And then Ruby keep it up for me. 00:28:50.349 --> 00:28:51.470 I'm like, oh, I didn't know. 00:28:55.629 --> 00:29:02.430 So the souls of believers after death are made perfect in holiness. 00:29:03.069 --> 00:29:07.149 Uh you'll remember from when we talked about sanctification. 00:29:07.549 --> 00:29:11.389 Uh sanctification is just a big word for making holy. 00:29:11.629 --> 00:29:15.549 Like they really are in Greek, it's the same, it's the same group word. 00:29:15.869 --> 00:29:23.869 So holiness is being set apart, holiness is being cleansed, holiness is being consecrated for service. 00:29:24.190 --> 00:29:31.549 And so we were made to worship God, and when we come to faith in Christ, it's the duplex gratia, the twofold gift. 00:29:31.629 --> 00:29:36.269 We have justification and sanctification at the same time through our union with Christ. 00:29:36.509 --> 00:29:39.950 So that's the promise that we are being conformed to the image of Christ. 00:29:40.109 --> 00:29:50.109 But the question that purgatory raises is what happens if that process is incomplete when you die, if you're not yet fully conformed to the image of Christ. 00:29:50.670 --> 00:30:08.190 But even that question, if you think about it, um when it kind of presumes that conformity to the image of Christ is an option that's available to us on this side of glory. 00:30:08.509 --> 00:30:21.869 Whereas a Protestant doctrine of sanctification and glorification would say that God will conform us to the image of Christ, but that is an unfinished project before we die or before Jesus comes back. 00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:23.869 What finishes the project? 00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:27.549 Us being ushered into the presence of Jesus. 00:30:27.789 --> 00:30:29.470 That's when we are perfected. 00:30:29.629 --> 00:30:34.750 That's when we are fully and entirely sanctified and no longer capable of sin. 00:30:36.430 --> 00:30:44.109 Hebrews 12, 14 again, strive to strive for peace with everyone and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:51.789 Well, if you think about it, Paul says in Philippians 2, we've talked about it a couple times now, that he dies, he goes into the presence of the Lord. 00:30:52.029 --> 00:31:02.990 Hebrews 12 also talks about the saints and angels, uh, the spirits of the righteous made perfect, right, in this great festival assembly and gathering in the presence of God. 00:31:03.069 --> 00:31:06.589 It's like a heavenly worship service that you see in Hebrews 12. 00:31:06.829 --> 00:31:10.029 Well, how does a saint go into the presence of God? 00:31:10.269 --> 00:31:16.109 How can a saint go into the presence of God if they've not already been fully sanctified? 00:31:16.829 --> 00:31:26.670 And so that's that perfection in holiness is what grants us entry into the presence of God, consummated entry. 00:31:26.990 --> 00:31:30.909 Because Isaiah 6, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. 00:31:31.069 --> 00:31:32.750 The whole earth is filled with his glory. 00:31:32.909 --> 00:31:38.029 Uh Isaiah can't be in his presence unless he's atoned for and cleansed. 00:31:38.109 --> 00:31:42.750 And so we need to be cleansed before we can go into God's presence at death. 00:31:43.629 --> 00:31:47.230 So perfection grants us entry, perfection and holiness. 00:31:47.389 --> 00:31:50.589 It also keeps us in God's presence. 00:31:51.710 --> 00:31:55.789 If we're perfected, we've reached the end of sanctification. 00:31:57.389 --> 00:32:02.029 He is faithful to bring to completion that good work that he started in us. 00:32:02.829 --> 00:32:06.269 And when we see him, we shall be like him. 00:32:06.589 --> 00:32:07.149 Yeah. 00:32:07.470 --> 00:32:16.589 In 1 John, because we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 00:32:17.869 --> 00:32:28.109 And all distractions and the will just make away like the corridor when curve through the ring. 00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:32.829 And we will see as he is. 00:32:32.990 --> 00:32:36.349 And that moment, I just imagine poof. 00:32:36.589 --> 00:32:42.430 All the stuff that still needs to get water for me will just poop right away. 00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:43.950 That's how I imagine it. 00:32:44.109 --> 00:32:44.430 Yeah. 00:32:44.750 --> 00:32:45.230 Yeah. 00:32:45.789 --> 00:32:46.109 Yeah. 00:32:49.389 --> 00:32:57.389 So this next quad, souls of believers are after death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. 00:32:58.029 --> 00:33:06.109 That's, you know, that's swiping a little bit at that idea of both those ideas of soul sleep and purgatory. 00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:09.149 It's to say that there's no. 00:33:10.349 --> 00:33:12.670 The intermediate state is intermediate. 00:33:12.909 --> 00:33:19.389 But when it comes to entering into the glorious presence of God after death, there's no waiting room. 00:33:19.710 --> 00:33:33.629 Like that's when you close your eyes for the last time, you can close them in confidence, knowing that the next time you open them, whatever that means for a disembodied existence, you will open them to Jesus. 00:33:33.789 --> 00:33:39.549 I remember I uh we had a woman, she was wonderful. 00:33:39.710 --> 00:33:49.069 She was an older lady member of our church in Illinois, and she had to have aorta transplant. 00:33:49.309 --> 00:33:51.309 Like she needed a new aorta. 00:33:51.389 --> 00:33:52.269 And she's telling me about it. 00:33:52.349 --> 00:33:53.549 I'm like, is that even possible? 00:33:53.629 --> 00:33:54.349 How do they do that? 00:33:54.509 --> 00:33:55.950 Yeah, that it's possible. 00:33:56.190 --> 00:34:05.710 They put you on a bypass machine, they remove your heart from your chest, take the aorta off, and they replace it with a new one. 00:34:05.789 --> 00:34:06.430 It's crazy. 00:34:06.509 --> 00:34:07.230 It's crazy. 00:34:07.389 --> 00:34:11.389 But I was at, yeah, I'm talking to her and I'm asking her, like, you know, how are you dealing with that? 00:34:12.110 --> 00:34:12.829 Are you scared? 00:34:12.909 --> 00:34:13.710 Are you confident? 00:34:13.789 --> 00:34:15.070 What's going on? 00:34:15.389 --> 00:34:18.750 And she's like, I mean, I've got Jesus. 00:34:19.230 --> 00:34:20.829 It's kind of a win-win. 00:34:21.230 --> 00:34:26.909