Hickory Grove Presbyterian Church

[Sunday School] Does God Choose Us or Do We Choose God? (WSC 20)

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SPEAKER_07

Heavenly Father, thank you for this morning. Thank you for these brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you for this thing we get to talk about today. Your eternal election, everlasting life, the covenant of grace, all these moves of your grace toward us when we did not deserve anything from you. Lord, this decision to rescue us from ourselves, not on the basis of anything in us, but on the basis of your own good pleasure, your own version. Help us to think well this morning. Move us to worship, to glorify you. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. I started. Okay. Why did God save you? For his glory. Okay, that's a good answer. For his glory, for his pleasure. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Anything else we want to add to or take away from that? We don't want to take away from God's glory. Anything anything we want to add to it?

SPEAKER_00

I like the story where you have the Trinity and they um love each other's and love each other so much. And then they decided in that relationship and wanted to abroad that relationship and have us involved in it.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, and that's a really good place to take it, right? We start with the eternal blessedness of the Trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, uh a community more glorious than which none can be conceived. So Father, Son, and Spirit exist eternally, loving one another, glorifying one another. No need for us, no need for creation, nothing like that. And God freely chooses to create, to make this world as a theater of his glory. He freely chooses to create us. And even though in the mystery of his foreordination, we fall, we reject God, we turn aside from the good things he wants to give us, he chooses to create us again. He chooses to pluck individuals out of the fallen mass of humanity and send Jesus to redeem us. So what we're talking about today is that. The beginning, we can say, of what God has done. His eternal decree, his eternal decision, his unconditional election to choose us, to save us. So question 12, by way of recap, it asks, What special? Yeah, you're looking for the parents' class. I was about to ask you if you were lost, but I didn't want to blow you up. But here we are. Have fun.

SPEAKER_09

This is biology.

SPEAKER_07

So by way of recap, question 12 asks, What special act of providence did God exercise toward man in the estate wherein he was created? And the answer is when God has created man, he entered into a covenant of life with him upon condition of perfect obedience, forbidding him to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil upon the pain of death. So this covenant of life or covenant of works with the first Adam. We talked about that. It's this arrangement in which we are all represented under Adam as our as our federal head. Adam breaks the covenant, and because Adam breaks the covenant as our head, we all break the covenant. We're all plunged into sin and misery. That's what we've been talking about the past several weeks: original sin, total depravity, hell, all of that. That's the problem. Today we talk about the solution to the problem, and really the beginning of the solution, as we'll spend however many weeks talking about how this works out historically and how it's applied to us. But we come to question 20. That's our focus today. Question 20, did God leave all mankind to perish in the estate of sin and misery? The answer, God having out of his mere good pleasure from all eternity, elected some to everlasting life, and did enter into a covenant of grace to deliver them out of the estate of sin and misery, and to bring them to an estate of salvation by a redeemer. So we start by talking about this choice. God, out of his mere good pleasure from all eternity, he elected some to everlasting life. When we talk about this doctrinally, the term we use is unconditional election. That's the U in the Calvinist TULIP. And TULET, it's fine. It's a relatively recent uh acronym used to summarize the canons of Dort from the early 17th to late 16th century. Did I get that right, Ruby? Okay. I want to say 1609, but I could be wrong. So, you know, some key points when we talk about the doctrine of unconditional election. The first is that God has chosen a certain number to be saved. It's not an abstract choice, but it's a concrete choice. John 15, 16. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruits. Jesus talking to the disciples, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. So the disciples, right? Why are the disciples disciples? Why are they following Jesus? Is it because they made a decision for Jesus after a preacher yelled at them for a while? Well, there's definitely a place for decision. We have to decide for Jesus. But what Jesus is getting at here is there's something more fundamental. That the first things first, we don't choose him, he chooses us. The choice is unconditional, right? Based on nothing in the chosen. You know, unpack that a little bit. Think that out some. What does it mean to say that election is unconditional? It seems obvious, but I want to tease it out.

SPEAKER_05

Well, I was always one of the last ones ever to get picked on a team sport because I was so horrible at all. And so the best most athletic, this is all the way from like first grade I would attribute that to be with me with people that need. But the people that are chosen are always the ones who performed the best. They were always the fastest, they had good eye hand coordination, they could run, they could, you know, throw whatever it was, hit ball, whatever it was. And that is the exact opposite of God's collection in his church. He does not, there is nothing about our quality characteristic in us that obligated him to choose us as the super saint. Yeah. No, not at all. Yeah. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. That's right. It's based on nothing in us. And that includes foreseen faith. You know, Arminian believers. Uh, you know, it's hard to get past the language of election. Election and predestination are all over the Bible. It uses those words several times. God is constantly choosing, talking about predestination, all of that. What an Arminian wants to say is that, yes, there is election, but election is conditional. And it's conditioned upon God looking down through the corridors of time and seeing the people who would choose him. And then choosing those people so that they will choose him. Does that make sense? I mean, I mean conceptually, did I explain that well enough to make sense? Yeah. So what what might be the trouble with that type of view of election if we think it out?

SPEAKER_06

God is not sovereign.

SPEAKER_07

God's not sovereign? How so? Why not?

SPEAKER_06

Because if the person is the one making the choice.

SPEAKER_07

Interesting, yeah. I didn't hear that, has it?

SPEAKER_03

I didn't hear that.

SPEAKER_07

God's not sovereign because it's the person who makes the ultimate decision. We do. Now, uh a sophisticated Arminian will say God is sovereign, but he is sovereign over his sovereignty, and he has freely chosen to leave this aspect of creation redemption up to us. He's like a parent of a small child, where it's kind of like your kid's about to do something stupid, and you let them do something stupid, not because you have no control, but because you have a bigger plan in mind. Now, what might be the issue with that? Tricky.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe because the child thinks that they're doing it.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, the God is still in control. Right? God is still in charge. And uh, you know, this is further afield than we want to go in terms of this discussion. But there's something, the Armenian understanding of election is built on something called middle knowledge. So God's knowledge, God's knowledge is necessary in the sense that God knows everything. Uh God knows everything that has happened, is happening, will happen. And it happens because God has known it by virtue of his decree. And when so God, God even knows hypotheticals, right? He knows what could happen in his necessary knowledge. God's free knowledge is his knowledge of that which he has voluntarily chosen to accomplish. So the actual decree of God. Uh in history, um, it's either a 15th or 16th century Jesuit by the name of Molina came up with an idea known as middle knowledge, where it's it's a knowledge of hypotheticals, where God maps out his plan, but he programs all kinds of contingencies into his plan. So if I choose X, the plan will go this way, or if I choose Y, the plan will go this way, and multiply that by a gajillion. And God's decree ultimately kind of moves and grooves according to the free choices of creatures. But if you think that through, it's how can you possibly have that complicated tapestry of God's decisions in a way that just doesn't end up with God giving up his control to creatures. It doesn't work. And maybe more fundamentally, if you want to climb the ladder of abstraction back down to earth, let's just think about grace. What is grace? Grace is God's unmerited favor towards those who deserve nothing but his wrath. Okay. If we choose God, and God responds with salvation on the basis of the choice we make, have we not merited his favor in some way? I mean, at the end of the day, we're trying to tease this out and think about this according to the logic of grace. And if grace truly is grace, and for grace to be as amazing as the New Testament says grace truly is, it's got to bottom out in God's free, sovereign decision. Election is unconditional. And it's also eternal. Was that a stretch or was that a question?

SPEAKER_00

No, but it's going to be a uh, I was going to add to what you were saying over there. Add away. Another argument that this is very interesting. I was interested here in your stuff because I've been in these arguments, and another argument that's thrown at me is that God blinds himself to the future. No, no, no, no, no. That's bad. I know it's bad, but that's the logical outcome of this line of argument from Armenianism. Yes, exactly. And so I just know that I'm hit with these things, and then I argue back and I don't ever get anywhere with the logic.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's basically a move under known as open theism, or uh, you know, more sophisticated process theology. It's this idea that God doesn't know the future because God has chosen not to know the future, or in harder forms because God can't know the future, because the future doesn't even exist if you know. But what do you do when that happens? I mean, how can you say God is eternal? How can you say he's infinite? How can you say that he declares the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end? All these things we want to say clearly from scripture.

SPEAKER_00

So, yeah, and so your attack was to uh define grace, which is part of the whole grace, yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, and that's you know, having conversations with ordinary people about redemption, salvation, election, grace is the safest place to go. I mean, if you start talking about middle knowledge, I mean, their eyes will glaze over like all your eyes glaze over when you start talking about them. You talk about grace, right? Who saves you? Do you save you? Did Jesus merely make it possible for you to be saved as long as you reach up and grab onto him? Because the Bible doesn't tell you that you're drowning in the water, flailing for hell. The Bible tells you that you're dead at the bottom of the sea. And God's got to reach all the way down, grab you by the scrup of the neck, throw you on shore, and breathe life back into your dead lungs. That's grace. Roy. Yeah. But only if you let him.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, because I that's and I'm wanting to learn these uh some of these arguments because I've argued this was pastors out there. But the uh in my more simple version, the way I've argued with them in the past is go to John 6.44, where uh it says, No one can come to me unless the father presented me, draw him, and I try to explain to them that during that time when that was written, they did not have motors and magnets. They had wells and the bucket in the water, some water is chosen, and some water gives justice.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But there I think we still have to be cautious with election. I'm speaking of somebody raised men and I can do very hardcore Army and live like a fearful. Am I a believer? Am I not a believer? Am I not saying that that kind of person? Anyhow, um the idea of the election can get corrupted into something like manifest destiny and a pride that we are the elect. Yeah. And you come and go and just get out of our way. It can get secularized, and it can get corrupted like anything else that goes into our own head. Yeah. You can have a parody called a conversion of itself. Yeah. If we're not careful.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, it's, you know, we're the chosen people, right? But what does God say to the chosen people of Israel in Deuteronomy 6 and Deuteronomy 7? I didn't choose you because you're special. I chose you because I loved you. So don't act like you've got something up on other people. Uh that's the same thing for us. If we understand sin and our depravity, we understand grace, and we understand that God's election is unconditional, then we can't flaunt the fact that we're the chosen people of God because we know that we have no right to be chosen. Leslie, do I see your hand?

SPEAKER_02

Uh, there's something, an example I remember from the sunships program, that I don't know that it actually fits with what you said about the bottom of the sea and God reaching down and get you. But it talks about us, somebody in there said we're like the ground doesn't have to do anything to get the water. You know, and the water just comes, and God's grace comes. No, we don't have to. Well, now I can't remember how we put it, but it was something like that. Like, you know, we don't have to necessarily do something to make the water come. Are the water just come in?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, it might be drawing on Hebrews 6 and talking about the difference between like a fertile ground and a barren wasteland. Yeah. The fertile ground receives the waters of God's grace. Yeah, there could be something to that. Alright, so election, it's it involves a certain number, a particular number of people. Uh it's unconditional, it's based on nothing in us. It's also eternal. It's a decision made from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1, 4 through 5. He chose us in him, that's in Christ, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption from himself, as sons of Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. So the choice is in Christ. All of our redemption is comprehended in Christ. Our election is in Christ. And notice how he chose us in him in order that we might be holy and blameless before him. It's not that we were holy and blameless before him, and then he chose us. Or it's not, and it's not that, again, he looked down through the corridors of time and he saw a certain people who would be holy and blameless and he chose them. No, he chooses us in Christ, and consequent upon that choice is our holiness and blamelessness. What about they'll have no excuse? What's that? Um, where creation reveals the glory of God and the presence of God, thus they they have no excuse. But they they and of course I'm yeah, I'm I'm I'm using this question, whether you're a lawyer or not. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, but I'm doing it for the benefit, you know. It's kind of a Socratic method here. Um, but they shall have no excuse. So I the question is if if they do have an excuse because they weren't elect, um their hearts are hardened. So uh yeah, here we go. Romans 1 starts with uh 20, for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made, so they are without excuse. Yeah. But they actually are, right? Nope. Professor, could you expand on that? No, I don't have to explain God to you. That's right. Well, in Romans 1, what it's talking about is you know, there will never be a human being who gets to go before the throne of God's justice and say to him, you know, Bertrand Russell, you know, the famous atheist. Somebody asked him, What will you say when you come before God after after you die? And he said, I'll say not enough evidence. And he died, and he went before the throne of God, and I can guarantee you he didn't say that. Because what Paul is saying is that the world is literally filled with evidence. That's why it's only the fool who says in his heart, there is no God. So we will have no excuse. Now, what we do with that evidence, you know, we are responsible for our sin. God is not responsible for our sin. God is not the author of sin. Sin comes from us, comes through us, comes to us, all of that. And so it's not God's fault that he chooses to save some as opposed to all. I mean, if you think about it, why should he choose any? So it's from a certain point of view, you can say, you know, uh imagine somebody's, you know, there are ten people in a burning building, and the firefighters show up, and they can only save eight. Now imagine the two that died, their families, sue the fire department and say, it's your fault. It's your fault they weren't saved. I set aside, maybe there might have been some negligence or something like that, but imagine they did their jobs perfectly and they just couldn't save the two. And then the families come after them for arson or something like that to say, for homicide, to say they kill them.

SPEAKER_00

It's the same thing. I don't like your illustration. Okay, why not? Because God's blood is sufficient to save all. He has the right to choose who he wants to save or who he doesn't, to explain grace to. But in this case, uh your illustration was that firefighters could only save eight out of the ten.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, but I'm not trying, it's not an illustration of the inefficiency of the firefighters or the anything like that. It's an illustration of how ridiculous it would be to charge the firefighters with burning the two people to death.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_07

I mean, they were in the house. But you know, it's a fair point, it's an important point. But when it comes to that, you know, the sufficiency of Christ's blood, we have to remember it's sufficient for all, but it's efficacious for some. Christ's blood isn't just this thing that makes it possible to be saved, it's this thing that actually accomplishes the salvation of his people.

SPEAKER_05

I was gonna refer to a verse in Exodus where God tells Moses his people, he was choosing his people to be in the kingdom of priests. And uh it echoes, I mean, Peter repeats it in his own. And uh That kind of priestly office that humans were originally to have on planet Earth. And God wanted to at least have a start on that and the people of Israel and then fully realized in the redeemed people, the church.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

You know what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, God, yeah. It goes hand in hand with what we talk about election being a concrete thing. God didn't just choose willy-nilly individuals, he chose a people. A people made up of individuals. And that choice was for a purpose. 1 Peter 2, I called you out of darkness and into my marvelous light that you might proclaim the riches. I'm paraphrasing. And that's the point of God's elect people all throughout. From Seth to Abraham to Moses to David, that's the point. A holy nation, a royal priesthood. That's a big part of it. Since we're dealing with objections, let's think about objections or questions, right? Things, hiccups that might keep us from understanding or embracing this doctrine of unconditional election. Sometimes you'll hear that this makes God arbitrary. This is an arbitrary choice by God. And it seems wrong that God would just be an arbitrary God who does whatever he wants whenever he wants, willy-nilly like. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_05

Muslim God, that's not a Christian God. That's a Muslim God, that's not a Christian God.

SPEAKER_07

Okay, what's the difference?

SPEAKER_05

Well, the the I'm like I said, familiar with Islam, you have gotten more or less rolling dice up in wherever he lives. Yeah. And you know, I get I get a six or whatever, I get a double double eye, whatever they call them, then those people say that one's lost.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, see, I don't do things with those groups.

SPEAKER_05

We have that arbitrary, you know, you, you, you, and the rest of them toast. Yeah. Kind of Islamic.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

They have no mercy, they have no grace, they have no redeemer, but it's such a sad, yeah, sad deception and aversion of the gospel.

SPEAKER_07

Wendy. Um your glasses, by the way. I'm asking.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so God is a just God. And um his all through scripture, his demand is that we follow him, obey him, love him, honor him, glorify him. And um man, because of Adam's sin, cannot meet that um basic criteria. And and so all of us are condemned. We we all fall short of the glory of God. So it's not that um he's arbitrary, he has he has a standard, right, and we're not meeting that standard. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So the question is fairness as well.

SPEAKER_07

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But it it's he is fair. He is being absolutely fair.

SPEAKER_07

And yeah, and we'll deal with fairness in a minute, but that's that's right. What you're saying is right. You know, the definition of arbitrary is based on random choice or personal whim rather than any reason or system. Randy, were you gonna say something?

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, in essence, uh all people are born in sin and elect in London. Yeah. And what sets us apart, you know, somewhere down that pathway, is the fact that the elect are drawn to God. Yeah, you know, he pulls us out of that. Yeah. And says, You're mine. Yeah. But we all started at the same place. Yeah. And of course nobody knows who's who until we see what he's hand does.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. The pushback, or George, right?

SPEAKER_04

Well, and this is, I don't know, uh it might sound silly, but I've had people say to me, Well, why doesn't he just say everyone? Yeah. Why doesn't everyone get chosen?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, that's that's the pushback. Like, oh, what or what Randy and Wendy are saying, it's right, but people will kick it back one level and say, okay, but how does God make that decision? Who he's going to draw to himself, who he's not. He could just draw everybody else. And one thing is to like, let's take seriously Deuteronomy 29, 29, where it says the secret things belong to God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever. Alright, the secret things belong to God. We're bumping up against mystery here. But the reason we can't say God's arbitrary, because the definition of arbitrary is random. Personal win, not based on any reason, not based on any system. Well, God, God's reason for his choice is his own inscrutable will. His system is his simple perfection, his attributes. He is all that he is, and he has all that he has and all that he does. He's perfectly holy, perfectly good, just, loving, merciful, all of that, and his decision to choose some to pass over others. So it's one thing to say that because God is incomprehensible, and because his decision is shrouded in mercy and mystery, that we can't know it, and we can't explain it, and we don't know the deep reason why some and not others. That's one thing. That's biblical humility. It's another thing to conclude from that that therefore no such reason exists. That's what you would have to do in order to charge God with arbitrariness. And you may as well say that God doesn't exist at that point. So it's not that God is arbitrary in his choice, it's just that he's above our pay grade. And he hasn't explained to us what he's done and why he's done it. And maybe in glory he will, maybe in glory he won't. But we won't complain about it.

SPEAKER_09

We have a long time to learn a lot.

SPEAKER_05

And we just preached recently uh on uh the uh the people of Nazareth who were so mad at Jesus for not doing the miracles, um not doing the performing show that you got elsewhere any response with the examples of um the wife of Elijah and the widow, uh what was the other one? Elijah and the widow wasn't even Israelite at all.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, yeah. I watched the name. Mayon commander.

SPEAKER_05

Anyhow, that and that was totally the election of God, the freedom of God to do whatever he wants to do, but his choices are always consistent with his entire character. He's not like our beautiful artist with buttons and things to push. Well, now I'll push my justice and now I'll push my mercy. He's not like that at all. He's a totally self-consistent. Yeah, everything is always integrated in everything else.

SPEAKER_07

It was an artist too, but also not like yeah, and but you know, if you want to argue, like uh we don't press the arbitrariness argument to other things, right? Uh like people will level this objection if you're talking about election. Well, what about like the ordinary course of history in providence? Right? Something bad happens in the world. Why did something bad happen in the world? Well, it's not because God is arbitrary, it's because God is holy, just all that's where God has a plan, God's working something out. And generally you'll find agreement with that with your with your Armenian brother and sister who might deny unconditional election. Okay, so if he's not arbitrary in that, you know, why can God do stuff that we don't understand in the in the working out of history, yet he can't do stuff that we don't understand in the working out of salvation? So, the next objection. Oh what? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02

There is not a definite number, though. Something you said in the beginning might make wonder. There's not a definite number of who would be Christians and be wrong.

SPEAKER_07

Oh, yes, there absolutely is. Really? Yeah. From the foundation of the world, God forordained whatsoever comes to pass. And when he chose us, he chose us in Christ.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, what's the number? Is it in the essence of the Christmas? Oh, I don't know. God knows. 144,000.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, there's not a number that we know. There's a number in the mind. Yeah, you missed that in the Bible? It's so obvious. No, no, it's yeah, you're gonna do it. No, no, it's it's a number in the mind of God alone. Only He knows.

SPEAKER_05

Well, it's a number that never can number.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, that's it. That's around the throne that no man can number so it's the best of the best. Yeah. B. V. Warfield argued that. It's like some people think about election, they kind of have a miserly view of it, where in the end only this scanty number of people will be saved. And Warfield's like, nah, we have every reason to think it'll be billions, right? It'll be this massive company. But comparatively speaking, it's small. The Lord said the road is narrow, few find it, right? Yeah. Um, so there will be billions, I'm sure, but comparatively speaking, it's still gonna be a small amount of the total whole. I would imagine, scriptural speaking.

SPEAKER_05

Any data on that?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, at least Jesus was talking about, you know, the right, you know, the narrowness of the path. Many are called, but few are chosen. Uh at the end of the day, I don't I don't know mathematically how that works out in the end. And Jesus said, Christianity is small, it's hard to follow Jesus. If the post-millennials are right, we're gonna have a golden age where everything gets more and more and more Christian, and then Jesus comes back. I don't know if the post-millennials are right on that. But I do I do think I don't I don't want to play the comparison game. I do think it's gonna be a lot. We'll do that. Let's let's not let's not uh get out over our skis and speculate too much. Only the noise.

SPEAKER_00

I wanted to point out that I believe that not everybody that Jesus talked to came to know the Lord. Yeah. Because I I know when we think about the number, then we're like, well, let's push our efforts over here instead of there. Well, we're supposed to just share it with whoever brings across your path.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, there are all kinds of people Jesus talked to that didn't know the Lord. I mean, even after his resurrection, people who witnessed it and talks about some doubt. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, was Jesus an ineffective preacher? No. He was the greatest preacher of all time. But the hearts were hardened. Yeah, that's what. Yeah. Yeah, and when you look at Isaiah 6, yeah, that's the mystery of preaching, right? It's God will use his word. Uh Isaiah 55, the word goes forth, it accomplishes exactly what God intends and never returns to him void. Alright, and when Isaiah 6, when God calls Isaiah, we see that the purpose of his preaching isn't to save everyone. The purpose of his preaching is to confirm God's judgment against them. And Jesus likens his parables to that. And it's not to say so, what it's to say is that like the working out of God's decree of election, part of that happens through the preaching of the word. So I'll stand up in this pulpit this morning and I will preach. And God will use my words to build some people up in their faith. Maybe he'll use my words to bring some people to faith, or maybe he'll use my words in order to further confront someone with the truth of his word and confirm their rebellion against him. So that in the end, when they're without excuse and they stand before the throne, God says, I spoke to you everywhere. I wrote my name in the class and in the stars. I shared the gospel with you through this guy on this day and this guy on this day, and so on and so forth. I called to you again and again and again, and you didn't listen.

SPEAKER_05

There was a huge fall off in the Gospel of John. Jesus was, he even looked at his own disciples and said, Are you gonna leave too? That's one of the saddest moments, I think, in the earthly life of Jesus. And Peter says, Who should you go? You and then towards eternal life.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, and that's one of the most encouraging lines for someone who wrestles with doubt. Some people just wrestle with doubt. And especially like being sedentary student, I'm reading all these arguments from all these unbelievers, and sometimes they ask questions, you're like, I don't exactly have an answer for that one. I'm not buying your argument, but that's an interesting point. And then you just go to Jesus and you're like, where else am I gonna go? You have the words of eternal life, Jared.

SPEAKER_09

You know, when you're talking about the two dying in the fire and the ape saves, that's how God uses us and uses these individuals to save so that's what I try to look at in that terrible situation. How is God working? Yeah. To do his good will.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. It's dangerous when we try to get back behind the curtain and unravel all of God's sovereign workings. We want to go as far as the Bible goes. We want to understand what he's freely revealed, we want to hold on to it because he revealed it for a reason. But yeah, when we speculate too much, then we get knotted up. Things start going sideways. Alright, we talked about arbitrariness. What about, and we've touched on the answer to this one a little bit. But let's say, well, that makes God unfair. Election is not fair. It's not fair that he would save some people like this and he wouldn't save others. What might you say to that? Oh, you just would just say what Paul said, and I love how Paul, well, through the power of the Holy Spirit, preempted that. Oh, is it oh man, Romans? Pastor Kenny, come on now. What is where is it? Where he says Are we to say, are we to say that God is 21 through 24? What is this? Nine. Yeah, 21 through 24, perhaps? Perhaps. Maybe, but let me maybe let me double check here. You will say to me then, why does he still find fault for who can resist his will? But who are you, oh man, to answer back to God. Well, what does Motin say to its motor? Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of the same lump, one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Well, what I would do, and uh that's very good, and I would eventually get there, but I would say, let's talk about this idea of fairness. Yeah. Let's look at the natural world and see how fairness is. Because I suspect that our democratic and mechanistic mindset has corrupted us from seeing what the world actually, nature actually is not fair at all. You can, you know, this baby is born to this welcoming biological, intact biological family. This baby is born to a drug-addicted single mom living in the slum. What's fair about that?

SPEAKER_07

So, Rubens 9, 14, what shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion. That's why humans can't bear election, right? Because you're like, wait a second, I have to have, because of the human pride, right? The humanism, I have to have control of this. It does, yeah. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show your my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. What passage? Uh Romans 9 and 14. Well, it helps, it helps to ask, what is fair?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

That we all go to hell. That's right. Yeah, what is fair, right? According to whose standard, right? Who sets the standards of fair and unfair? What do we deserve? Right? You know, if we all deserve salvation, then it would be unfair for God to grant it to some and not to others. But we don't deserve salvation. We deserve condemnation. Right? We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

SPEAKER_05

And if God fairness came into our philosophical stream somewhere, Kenny. I'm not sure where it entered. With democracy, maybe, with emancipation of, you know, everybody gets the vote, that's fair. Nobody gets cut out, that's fair.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, it strikes me as like a dinosaur version of justice, right?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, but it's justice not out of balance.

SPEAKER_07

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05

Um G.K. Chesterton said there's nothing like a virtue drawn from wild. Yeah. It does more damage than any vice you can think of. A good thing and push it out of its balance.

SPEAKER_07

It's rootless justice, right? Because justice, in some sense, it's it's balanced, but within a personal context, it's justice is giving people what they're due, understanding that God is the first and most absolute person who's due, right, in the cosmic order. So fairness kind of levels that out and says fairness is just everybody getting the same. It's more complicated than that. That is an interesting question. Where does fairness enter the discourse? But again, you you bring it back to that thicker, weightier concept of justice, right? And then you see really quick that you know fair means none of us get salvation. Mercy means some of us get salvation. And again, we're bumping up against the mystery of God. We can't say why only some and not all, except maybe to go back to what James just read from Romans 9. Uh, I don't think you went, you kept going to verse 22, where it says, What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles. God, in his perfect, holy, just wisdom, determined that the best of all possible worlds would be one in which he allowed the fall, one in which he allowed sin, one in which we would see all of his attributes on display, not just his love and his goodness, but also his wrath, his justice inflicted against those who oppose it. Again, in God's will, this is the kind of world that he has made. And if he decided to choose everyone, to save everyone, then we actually wouldn't have a display of his ultimate justice against those who die in their sin. Right? It's again, we're we're getting into that sort of sanctified speculation territory, but these are the directions that Scripture itself schools us to think. Because that's what Paul just said. So if you want to think about it, you can only go so far, but this is the direction in which you think about it.

SPEAKER_00

Personally, and for myself, uh, I like those verses in Exodus 4, 11, where God says, who makes man deaf, who gives him, you know, who makes him hear, who makes them blind. And uh to me, uh there's no that God does exist, and God has that power, and who else would you want to have that power but an all-loving God? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Alright, one more. If we're elect, then it doesn't matter what we do. It's an objection. I'm not saying that's right, but that's something you might hear, right? Well, if election is true, then what does it matter? You know, what does it matter that we preach? What does it matter that you believe? What does it matter that you read your Bible, go to church, pray, all the things? What does it matter? God has made his choice, quesaras era.

SPEAKER_05

Could any person possibly say such a thing? Fully understanding all the implications of the character of God. Could they possibly say such a

SPEAKER_07

Jesus commanded us. Go and preach the gospel. Go and preach the gospel. He commanded us. And you're just throwing the seeds out and then and and then you know you go to sleep and you wake up. How did it happen? Well the Holy Spirit. You just throw the seeds out.

SPEAKER_05

I think God changes your heart. He chooses to change your heart. And that changes your actions. You don't want to do those things. Very well said. Yes, yeah. Very well said.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. So if that's your view on election, you're thinking about it. Like this objector. If it's just an arbitrary choice, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. You're only thinking about the very beginning and the very end. You're not thinking about everything in between. Because for God to choose a people is not to just choose your salvation on the end. You know, salvation is a three-dimensional, you know, in terms of tense. You know, we were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. Salvation, election, election, you have collection, you have uh regeneration, you have uh calling that leads to regeneration, you have conversion, so faith and repentance, you have sanctification, adoption, glorification. You have all these steps through which you walk in the order of salvation. If you're chosen from the foundation of the world, God does that. He changes your heart, he writes his law upon your heart, he gives you the eyes to see Jesus and to turn from your faith and to run to him, and then you continue to change, continue to change, and you persevere by God's preserving grace all the way to the end. So, yes, it absolutely does matter what you do, because what you do is a response to what God is doing. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works within us both to will and to do for his good pleasure. That's what Paul says in Philippians 2. Remember, Ephesians 1 4, I read it earlier. God chose us in Christ from the foundation of the world in order that we would be holy and blameless before him. If he chooses us, we become holy. We're sanctified, we grow, we do the things God wants. And in Scripture, all over the place, God exhorts his elect people. Leviticus 11, 44. I am the Lord your God, consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. Exodus 19, 5 through 6. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. 1 Peter 2 9. You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous life. I chose you, now live like it. Not in order that you might be chosen, but because you have been chosen. And with the choice comes everything you need in order to live as a chosen person. And those works are preordained. Ephesians 2 10, for we are his workmanship, created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

SPEAKER_05

Let us make man in our image. And Jesus is finally making it possible for that image to be fully realized on its way to completely realization. God wants us to be hanging out with him, and in order to do that, we have to have his character. Otherwise, being in his presence would be like the happen to the demons when Jesus came close.

SPEAKER_07

What you have to do with us, Jesus, and Son of the Most High. Alright, last question for us as we draw to a close. How do you know you're a lack? By your fruits. Okay.

SPEAKER_05

I don't worry about that question at all.

SPEAKER_07

So we just got to do that. But John tells us to examine. First John tells us to examine yourself. So historically, in our tradition, there are uh, especially from the the Reformation and the post-Reformation Puritans, kind of two ways to look at this: the mystical syllogism and the practical syllogism. And the mystical syllogism has to do with our union with Christ. John Calvin said that Christ is the mirror of election. If you want to know whether you're elect, look to Jesus. Do you want to look to Jesus? Do you love Jesus? Do you follow Jesus? Is he enthroned in your affections? Is your faith in Jesus? And guess what? You're elect. Because that's what elect people do.

SPEAKER_06

I mean the mere question itself is a way to understand.

SPEAKER_07

Right. In one sense, like, you know, if if someone asks you, like, oh, how do I know I'm elect? And sometimes it comes with anxiety. It's like, well, if you're worried about it, you don't need to worry about it. That's that's often that's the answer to that kind of question. But then, you know, you want to unpack a little bit. Well, do you love Jesus? Because if you weren't elect, you would hate him. You would want nothing to do with him. Right? You are chosen in Christ. That's the prerequisite, right? If you want Jesus, it's because God wanted you first. So that's the mystical syllogism. The practical syllogism gets at what James was talking about. Are you bearing true? 2 Peter 1, 3 through 11. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election. For if you practice these qualities, you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So if someone were to say election is an excuse for inaction, they don't understand election. Because what Peter is saying there is walk the Christian walk. Grow in virtue by grace and in the power of the Holy Spirit. Confirm your calling and election in this way. Again, that's not to say that you're going to earn your election. You can't do it.

SPEAKER_06

Aren't you inherently inspired by the Holy Spirit if you are a left?

SPEAKER_07

What's that?

SPEAKER_06

Aren't you inherently inspired by the Holy Spirit if you are a left?

SPEAKER_07

Illuminated by the Holy Spirit, yeah. Regenerated, sanctified, being more made more and more to conform to these things and grow in these things.

SPEAKER_05

And that includes more confidence. More confidence that you loved hanging out with Jesus and you love talking about him and so anytime I used to travel a lot. Anytime at the airport or on a plane, I'd say, Lord, please put me in a position to talk about you with somebody, and usually there was.

SPEAKER_07

Ruby, I couldn't agree more. It's like you step out of yourself and you're like, man, I love Jesus. You do. You've got to start.

SPEAKER_05

I can't wait. I get it. And now it's at the cat food aisle in Walmart. Yeah. Same thing.

SPEAKER_04

You need to go for us and introverted people then. I know, I'm with you, right?

SPEAKER_05

I'm not quite there yet. It's the most wonderful, exciting thing in the world to be a Christian. It's amazing. That excitement should flavor everything.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, and that's right. You know, that's for extroverts, that's gonna operate in a very extroverted way. For us introverts or ambiverts like me, it's gonna operate in a less extroverted kind of way, but it's gonna operate nonetheless. And so, you know, the final word against vain speculation, right? We go as far as scripture does. So if we come to the personal question about am I elect, do you love Jesus and are you following him? If you love Jesus and you're following him, that's really what we need to worry about. Just do that, and you will confirm your calling and election. So let's let's set our eyes on that. Take what Scripture tells us so that we know that our security in Christ is not based in us, it's based in God's eternal decision. It's safe in his hand. Uh, and just press on. Press on. Press on. Let's pray. Father, thank you for this morning again. Thank you for these brothers and sisters. Thank you for your grace. A grace that goes all the way to the bottom, all the way to the beginning, a grace that is unconditional, based on your own mercy, your own goodness, your own kindness, your own love, not based on us and anything we can do or can't do or anything in us. Lord, help us to remember that and help us to walk in confidence. Help us to look to Jesus, the mirror of our election. Help us to bear fruit in keeping with repentance, so that our calling and election might be confirmed in our hearts and in our minds and in the eyes of those around us who see Jesus in us, hear Jesus in our words, smell Jesus on us. Lord, we would love for you to use us as instruments of your calling to others whom you have chosen from the foundation of the world. We don't know who they are, and as far as we concern, we are concerned, every single person we meet might be one of them. So, Lord, help us to live that way and to trust you to do the work to awaken people to faith. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Alright. Thank you. We only got through the first line of that answer.

SPEAKER_04

So like our whole thing.

SPEAKER_07

So next week we're going to talk about the covenant of grace.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so you said the words introvert?

SPEAKER_07

Ambivert.

SPEAKER_04

Ambivert. Yeah. Explain that.

SPEAKER_07

So like you got the two poles, right? Introvert is someone who gets energy from going to the hideous away from people. An extrovert is someone who gets energy from going out of being with people. An ambivert is someone who behind people. I think that's me. I was an introvert for a long, long time. I'm still around.

SPEAKER_04

I'm an extroverted introvert. Yes. That's what that's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_07

I think that is.

SPEAKER_04

Because I in some circumstances.

SPEAKER_07

I had to wonder if I was. Yes.