I Spoke to Her Lion—What Happened Next Shocked Me

🌿 Episode Overview
Trisha reconnects with wildlife rescuer and conservationist Roxy Dankwerts—after 20 years.

What begins as a heartfelt reunion unfolds into a powerful conversation about life, purpose, and the profound bond between humans and animals. Roxy shares her extraordinary journey rescuing and rehabilitating orphaned wildlife, including elephants, lions, and cheetahs, and the emotional realities that come with this work.
Trisha and Roxy explore the importance of truly listening to animals, the unseen emotional world of wildlife, and the responsibility humans carry when interacting with both wild and captive animals.

🐶 Key Takeaways
Every animal is an individual with its own personality, needs, and preferences
Not all animals want to be “saved”—listening is essential
Compassion fatigue is real
True conservation goes beyond saving—it includes respect, ethics, and understanding
Animals are powerful teachers of presence, awareness, and authenticity
Human ego can interfere with genuine connection and ethical care

⏱️ Episode Chapters
00:00 – Introduction to Roxy Dankwerts and her incredible work
 01:14 – A heartfelt reunion after 20 years
 02:47 – The story of Bones the lion and animal communication
 06:28 – Meeting Diesel and Levi the cheetahs
 10:14 – The emotional impact of wildlife rescue work
 13:14 – Roxy’s early connection to animals
 17:39 – Personal relationships with rescued animals
 20:12 – Animal communication in action
 23:22 – Lessons from animals and the importance of listening
 26:59 – Letting go of ego in conservation work
 30:22 – The elephant nursery and rescue realities
 32:10 – Ethical rescue and knowing when to let go
 35:30 – Supporting animals through compassion and awareness

🐾 Animal News
This episode explores the complex and often controversial world of wildlife tourism and captivity, with a focus on ethical considerations.

The welfare of animals in tourism settings such as koala encounters
The fine line between conservation funding and exploitation
The importance of preserving natural habitats over creating artificial experiences
How animals experience human interaction—and why many don’t seek it
The need for more ethical, animal-first approaches in conservation and tourism
Just because humans enjoy an experience doesn’t mean animals do.

👤 Our Guest
Roxy Dankwerts is a passionate wildlife rescuer and conservationist, and the founder of Wild is Life and the Zimbabwe Elephant Nursery.

Roxy’s efforts have gained international recognition, including a Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Fund for Animal Welfare. Beyond rescue, she is committed to educating others, promoting ethical conservation, and fostering a deeper understanding of the sentience and emotional lives of animals.
https://wildislife.org/zimbabwe-elephant-nursery/

🔮 Coming Up in Part 2
Roxy shares the powerful story of Moyo, a rescued elephant who became a guiding force in her life and work. 

Trisha and Roxy explore:
The global impact of poaching and conservation challenges
What animals experienced during COVID—and what it revealed about humanity
The future of ethical wildlife care and communication

🎧 Listen, Share & Stay Connected
Follow, subscribe, and stay connected with Animal Talk with Trisha McCagh for more powerful conversations that deepen our understanding of animals and the world we share.

#AnimalTalk #WildlifeRescue #AnimalCommunication #ElephantRescue   #EthicalTourism  #AnimalAdvocacy #AnimalWelfare #WildlifeSanctuary 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:02

Today on Animal Talk Patricia McKay, we are joined by an extraordinary woman whose life has become a sanctuary for the wild. Roxy Dankwartz is the founder of Wild is Life and the Zimbabwe Elephant Nursery, Zimbabwe's first dedicated orphan elephant rescue and rehabilitation centre. From humble beginnings to caring for some of Africa's most vulnerable wildlife, Roxy has devoted her life to rescuing, rehabilitating, and when possible, returning animals to where they belong. And that's in the wild. Her work with orphaned elephants is nothing short of extraordinary, offering around-the-clock care, deep emotional attunement, and the kind of love that allows traumatized calves to trust again. Roxy's dedication has earned international recognition, including a lifetime achievement award from the International Fund for Animal Welfare. But more than that, she has helped shape a culture of compassion for wildlife in Zimbabwe and beyond. This is a powerful conversation about resilience, devotion, and what happens when humans truly step up for the wild. Well, Roxy, I am so happy for you to be on the show today. I I don't know, I'm all over flatter really. I I'm so excited because you and I haven't seen each other in about 20 years. And I think today's just such an occasion. I'm just so excited with it. And I I know you've been doing a lot in the last 20 years and me too. And I think we're just going to have a great conversation today. But more importantly, I want to find out what you've been doing in the last 20 years. So thank you, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Thank you, Trisha. It's so nice to see you again and just to be able to catch up and reconnect and just crack because you did. You had a huge impact on my life and the way that I work. And yeah, so I'm I'm super happy to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

20 years ago, uh a few things happened actually. I'm trying to remember if it was that year or is it 21 years? Because I remember that uh our first encounter was through a consultation and it was with your lion bones. And I was I was fairly, fairly early on in my career, and when you contacted me and wanted you to talk to, wanted me to talk to your lion, I can't tell you the excitement and the privilege that that was, you know, or or what it did that help you, that consult, because you wanted to know really um what was going on with Bones, your lion. And uh and so tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Bones was a little lion that had come into me as as a newborn, and he for some reason just gripped, you know, really gripped my heart. And but he was never a very well thriving, robust little lion. And um, he'd had an awful, awful um background, and um he was the only cub that survived out of this little group um during a very traumatic experience that the whole family went through. And um it was just so fortuitous that I was able to get him. And you know, I'd known about animal communication, and um I was, you know, deeply curious because having spent a lifetime of working with animals or just being around animals, there was like something a bit magic, and there was something else going on that I just couldn't put my finger on. So that's when I contacted you, and I can't remember exactly why or the questions I asked you about him, but I remember it just changing my whole perspective and just saying, oh yeah, there's something going on here. I want to learn more, you know, it's gonna help me do my job better. And I promise you, to this day, I use the techniques that you taught me. And um, you know, sometimes I can do it, I can do it very well. Sometimes it happens, you know, just naturally. Um and sometimes I can't connect at all. And it's it's very, very bizarre. So um yeah, you did actually change, completely change the way that I saw how things worked, as it were, and that there was a whole world out there that um so few people knew about, and I I was like deeply excited, and then you came. It was just unbelievable.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Well, look, that was a that was a very exciting time for me as well, and I know that we needed to sort out what was going on with Bones, and it was deeply emotional, very deeply emotional. And then I was very caught up with that, and I've always have a had a love of going to Africa and you being in Zimbabwe just happened to be one of the places that there was just this this um program going on there and and something in South Africa. So that's that was going to be my trip for the couple of months, that's where I was going. And then you and I got in contact, or I got in contact with you and saying, Well, I am here, and you said, Well, if you're coming all the way here, do you want to do a workshop because you've got an amazing plantation there in uh in Zimbabwe? And I I I jumped at the chance. And that's what we did, and you organized that. And I'm I don't know whether I've ever said this to you, but I know that you have two sons. Yes, and at the time they were away in their education, but I didn't know that at first. You mentioned your sons, but you didn't mention, or if you did, it didn't register with me. So we the night before the workshop, we were chatting and we were talking about things, and you said to me, Oh, you simply must meet my two boys. And I took it that your two boys were your two sons, and I went, Oh, of course, that would be lovely, that would be wonderful. And then you went out, you opened the door, and I I don't know whether you saw my face, but I can only imagine what my face looked like because two cheetah walked in.

SPEAKER_05 6:49

And I just remember, I just I just remember going, they weren't the two boys I was expecting, and they were these two male cheaters, Diesel and Levi, and I and I had two things going on.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Well, actually, let me tell you, there were 500 things going on. The first thing was going on, they're not boys, as in humans, they're two cheetah. Tut cheetah had just walked into a living room with a fire and couches. Oh my god, is it what's going on? This is just so surreal. And I was sitting there going, I think, I think all everything has come at once for me. I have been awarded something. And then you said, Oh yes, they'll sit down and relax. And they sat with us. I mean, later on they obviously went and got on your bed, and we won't go into that, but they they they were there. And then in the days to follow, we we I took them for a walk on Leeds. I'm telling people out there, because especially people in Australia or other places that don't have cheetah. Um and then they got in the car, and I remember one of the cheaters had, you know, um feet over me, you know, paws over my shoulders. And I just thought, this is the most amazing thing I'll ever have in my life. And I played soccer with them, and that's why I was infatuated with them because and I would have been infatuated with bones as well, but you know, for those that don't know, you know, you have to be a bit careful with lions and when they get past a certain point of time in their life, and you know, because you know, bones was a humongous, it's awesome looking male. And of course, you had two other lions as well, a male and female, and I think it was Mambo and Savannah, something very good, yeah. And and and Mambo and Savannah, because my dog, I named a dog after Savannah. Um I know, right? Big influence for both of us. But I just wanted to let people know that that was just such a remarkable experience. And I remember being in my room um that were that you gave me. I was in my room, and I remember looking out the windows, and I'm going, oh my god, I can see. And then I'm just going, this is insane. I'm I'm looking out a window and seeing these animals, and then the animals were right up around the house. You know, I walked out of the back veranda and you're seeing a kudu, or you're seeing an Elan, or you're seeing the zebra, and there's there's it was just surreal for me. And I just want you to know that because it's made such an impact.

SPEAKER_05 9:16

And in fact, I've told the Levi Diesel story so many times, and people went, Oh, you're kidding me, you're kidding me.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

So I think the impact. And I and I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you for changing my perspective as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah, I'm so pleased. You know, it's often interesting how how this can happen, you know, in in a moment. You know, something will happen and change somebody's perspective. And it can often be life-changing, and I'll I won't know about it until years and years afterwards. Like this particular example, your example, and that just like makes me feel like, okay, this has been worth it. You know, um, and it's been tough, it's been really tough, but um, yeah, it's been worth it, and I love that. I love that that it's you know impacted you so great.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

And I knew I I knew I knew it was like tough for you and in the situation, and it's very tough for the animals, and it's tough because maybe we'll we'll talk about that, and um because I've got lots of questions to ask you. I I I want to do the full gamut, but there's a I had to lecture on a particular subject at a wildlife centre here in Australia. They wanted me to speak on compassion fatigue. Because I I mean, I've uh there's been a little introduction of you and what you do and and who you are, and you're an advocate for animals, but people need to know that in the work you do and you rescue a lot of animals, and in fact, I I want to talk about a few other things because you know you had animals there all the time that you were assisting, and now you're very big into orphaned down uh elephants, and you're working with that, and I want to find out all about that. But when you're working with wildlife animals, rescuing animals in dire or traumatic situations. Yeah, for people like you and I, because you and I both know, you know, we've spent enough time together that we're just in love with animals, our heart can't beat unless we hear the beat of an animal's heart. It it it's it's something within us and and it's so beautiful, but that beautiful can also get very painful when it doesn't turn out the way we would like. And you've gone through a lot of that. I've seen a lot of that, I saw it in Africa, and it's not just in Africa, it's all around the world. And I just want to know that, you know, compassion fatigue is real, and I want everyone who's listening to this to understand how important it is to support people who do this work wherever you are in the world, and to support it and to offer it financial assistance, physical assistance, emotional assistance, because it's very draining on somebody who puts their life on the line, their time, their effort, their heart. And then they have to watch that animal leave in very not so good circumstances. It's very heavy on the heart. So, so I, you know, and that is why I spoke to this wildlife center because they were all suffering. And um, the guy who ran it, he said to me afterwards, thank you for that. Thank you for helping them to understand how to better work their energy, their heart, their relaxation, because they were really suffering. We just had a fire here. There was a lot of animals affected, they were burnt and things like that. And so there was a lot of young people as well, very, very young, and they hadn't seen a lot of that before. So I was glad to be able to help them as I want to offer support to you. That's why I want to be talking about this because it's a beautiful, beautiful thing that we can help animals. So let's get into that. Um now, where did your love for wildlife come from? Is this like from from birth? You know, from a small child?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, I think it probably was, Tricia. I mean, you know, I I grew up with animals and I was an only child for quite a long time. And we had horses and cattle and sheep and dogs and you know, the occasional diker or an owl or something. And yeah, so the I was always around animals, and I found myself spending a lot of time, you know, like at the stables, for instance. I was never a very good horsewoman, but I just deeply loved my pony and you know, all the horses around, and I loved that life. It was a very organic life. So um we also used to um go on like camping trips and go up to the north up to Mana Pools or to the Zambezi Valley, and I remember being around, I think I was around 11 or so. And at that time, well, actually you still can, you can go walking in these wild areas, which is hugely dangerous. I mean, you know, there's lions, there's buffalo, there's elephant, and I went off for a walk, and um I saw in the distance an Ellie so I sort of went from tree to tree, not really understanding, and it was a big ball elephant, and I sat on a sort of broken branch and just sat in his majesty for quite a long time actually, and he knew I was there, but he was spiritual, thank goodness, and I just remember feeling um like a pulsating thing going on, and I'll never forget it because I mean I was only 11. I I didn't know about such things, and I I don't know anything about elephants actually. And then later I I did an elephant study with um an amazing um wildlife guide um Nwangi and you know for school um for A levels and did that and so my interest was had always been there, but I never really had the opportunity. And then when I got married and I moved to the farm, I I yeah, which was a good 40 years ago, I was always involved with the animals. And you know, despite wanting to be a high-flying businesswoman with nice clothes and high-heeled shoes, it didn't really w work. Um, and I was just much happier being um on the farm with animals. So and it just grew organically, you know, a mongoose would come in or a diker would come in, and all these little animals, they just they were around and they were in the house. They weren't really pets as such. Um but they they were there and I just found it fascinating. So I did a lot of reading and a lot of like research and and um and then um when 2000 arrived in Zimbabwe when there was a lot of conflict here and an almost a a war situation, I then rescued a whole lot of animals on farms, and those were the animals that you met. Um I must tell you actually, that that vehicle that you were in with Diesel and Levi never recovered from the smell of those bloody cheetah who used to be in the car. We re-upholstered, we cleaned, we did every say it is to this day, and it's still alive that car. It still smells of this bloody cheetah.

SPEAKER_05 17:17

Because you because I remember you saying when we were driving along, can you oh they smell um because I had because I had a paw on each shoulder, I couldn't smell anything. I was just in heaven. I and I'm sorry for the smell, and I'm sorry, but I I honestly I couldn't do anything that day but go, I think I've I think I've died and gone to heaven.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

So so but I can imagine, and you know what? I I wish I had known and at the time, or you'd you'd you'd contact me because I would have said, I don't want to ask those guys what they're gonna say, because you know what they're gonna say. What's wrong with my smell? I smell wonderful. What is wrong with you? Because that's what catch-out.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

But it did make my children very carsic on the way to school. And um I got disturbed, but no one else did. Anyway, they loved that vehicle. It was so sweet. Anyway, so um, yeah, I suppose that's where my love for wildlife began. And you know, these animals are yeah, they some of them really, really grab you and touch you. You know, they just pull your heart out. Um there've been a few that have been you know deeply, deeply special to me. And um uh but you know, one one every single rescue one has a personal relationship with that animal. So you know, every and I don't think people realize it's not like a canning factory of one animal after the other after the other. It's it's really, really, really personal. And um I think rescue is often underestimated in that respect. That it's you know, it's personal.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

Yeah, I look it is very personal. It's something that it's it's a relationship, it's because each individual animal has an individual personality. Absolutely. It's that there's not, oh, they're all like that, or it's not like that. And I know that in the mornings when I when I was staying on your plantation, you know, I'd go out in the morning and just walk around the animals and have conversations with them. And um I you might remember with Diesel and Levi, you know, I went into the um, because they had a beautiful big enclosure and they had this platform up there they used to play on, and I got a bit waylaid because I was watching um one of them up on the platform, and um I think it was Diesel up the top, and I was watching him like that, and all of a sudden I got this message I'm gonna play with her. And just as that happened, I I grabbed because the pause went round my waist, it's gonna take me down to play, and I grabbed his paws and went, Oh no, you don't leave. I no, no, no, you don't. Because I heard him. It's like there was a warning, like, I'm gonna play with her, and it it was out of the blue, and and so I was right onto it, but it was so beautiful the way you could hear them and you you could have an experience with them because even those two guys were completely different in personality, they were just wonderful. And then the lions had a completely different energy, completely different. And Bones, well, he was something else. He was something else.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Bones is one of my greatest friends or was. I mean, he still is, he's gone now, but um, I often talked to him, I buried him under the tree outside my bedroom, and um he really there was something very different about Burns. He he would communicate very easily. Um he had an immensely open heart that you could get in there really quickly, and he was such a great teacher, you know. I think um he was probably quite an old soul, and yeah, he he did. He taught he taught me many things and listen, he gave me a couple of hard lessons, you know. My mum was um in the pen with him, and I was in the pen as well, but she was in a car because I I mean he wasn't safe with other people. I could go in, but he he he wasn't safe with other people. And I was behind a tree, and he suddenly and I wasn't concentrating, she wanted to take some photos. I wasn't concentrating, and his tail was doing. This and I always said, watch the cobra tail. You know, watch it. And I wasn't listening, I was focused on something else. And he suddenly he did it once. He turned and he hit me with his paw. Um, not hard, and I still didn't listen. I did not listen. I just thought, oh come on, burns, pull it together, you know, we've got things to do. Anyway, then he hit me hard and he hit me in the neck and I blanked out. And then the next thing I and I screamed at the time. I got a huge fright, obviously, because he'd he'd never done that before. Anyway, I then found myself sitting outside the pen, covered in dust and grass. I'd obviously fallen over, but I didn't know that. And the gate was wide open, and there he was just sitting looking at me. And I was leaning at the wall, and everybody came racing. You know, they'd heard this yell. My mother nearly had a heart attack. And um I then got up and just shut the gate so he didn't eat anybody. But it was like, mmm, don't push me. You know, don't don't push me too hard and listen. Listen. And this is what my dream is, just for people. And I think it's your dream as well. It's just listen to what they're trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

Well, we if we don't, we will learn the hard way. It's happened to me as well. But and it's also there's been a few instances in a big way that I've been, you know, working with my communication for different countries or something to do with animals there, and they haven't listened and they've they've suffered the consequences either by the death of that animal or something else has happened. Because we need to listen. We need to listen to the planet, we need to listen to the animals, and we need to listen to everything because there's messages everywhere around even what we're doing. We need to listen to ourselves as well. There's just too much outside, and we get caught up in our humanness, you know, um, instead of the animals have taught me so many things, and I aspire every day to be just like them because I think they're so far more advanced than we are in in and we could sit here and list it off. But I but wild animals also have a different thing going on. Even the ones in captivity, they have a different sense of freedom, they have a different sense of purpose than the ones who have chosen to work particularly side by side, you know, dogs, cats, even horses and birds haven't fully agreed to be domestic. Dogs and cats have, but the others haven't. And we need to listen to that, and so we need to be respectful of that. But Bones came to you to be in captivity, he came to you for a purpose because he wanted to teach you about the wild, the true world. It's because you're living in Zimbabwe and you're pretty much surrounded by it. There's more to it and to the heart of the world.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

But you know, I I think also, you know, at the time I was I was a lot younger. I mean, I don't know how many I think twenty twenty years maybe, I don't know. Um at the time, my ego was getting in the way of the real work. And I needed to learn to get on the other side of that ego. And I'm being completely honest here. You know, it's lovely to have your photograph taken with a lion having a cattle, and I now realize how terrible that is optics, you know, and how awful it is to have to, you know, drug animals or train them to be selfie uh accessories, you know. And I think uh that I and and it's something that I deeply regret were some of those photographs that we had of bones, but you know, at the same time it was still what I was trying to put across was the sentience on and the immense love that can exist between a human and an animal, even though they're still wild. But it's not something that people must aspire to doing, and I missed the point. So eventually I did get the point. Um but that was ego, and I think you know, when I like to uh you know, advise younger people as it were, and I'll say to them, get rid of your ego, guys. Don't don't do this for the wrong reasons.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

No, you know, and leave it in the door. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

There are so many people who do it for all the wrong reasons. So I very rarely get photographed with animals anymore. I d I don't I don't I don't like you know uh interaction with a lot of animals. I just I don't think it's right. And they don't like it. We know that. No.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

Well they're trying to t they're trying to teach us quiet, silence, uh being in the moment, being present, all of those things. You know, even when there was times when I wanted to take pictures with my own animals, you know, my dogs and cats, uh, the dogs were okay. But my cat, who is my particular animal communication teacher, she'd never allow it. She would never allow it. She said, Why do you need that? Why do you need that? Can you not remember me by yourself? Memory of what? I said, Oh, I don't know. It just, it's, it's just I might have regrets. So she said, You don't need that. You don't need that. She said, What we have, the moment we're sharing that you're so busy trying to get the picture of, you've missed the moment. And that is what I learned. And I went, oh my God. I completely walked over that one, right? And so now it's all about the moment. I I mean, I the only reason I like to capture moments now is to show other people those moments and the beautiful sentience involved with it. But the realism is I forget half the time because I'm so in the moment with a dragonfly, a frog, yeah, a bee, what what whatever it is, and it's giving me a moment.

unknown 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

And I'm being shown lessons all the time.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

All the time. Yeah. So that's that's the that's the that's a really important. Do you think there was a a moment in your life where you realize that um that that the work you're doing is it wasn't a a conservation effort, that it was really a passion. Like this, I mean, when I see you, even when I saw you with bones, when I saw you with any of those animals, even 20 years ago, I saw the passion.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

You know, this it's like, oh my god, this is her calling. Was there a moment where you realised that or did it or was it always like that?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

It's a good question. I think um I think there's always been elements of it. Uh you know, being being a passion. I think it has always been passion, actually. I I don't think anyone would do this if they weren't passionate. You know, you you have to be so committed, so in it, so you know, heart open. I wouldn't say there was a moment in time. I think, you know, this has been a very organic progression, as it were. And um one thing has led to another has led to another. And I remember in 2019, um we had I think nine babies in the nursery, which is a lot for us.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

And you know You're talking bad baby elephants?

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Bad baby elephants. And it was absolute pandemonium. They were sick, they were injured, they were distraught, they were, I didn't know who was gonna live and who was gonna die. And I said to my team, oh my god, you need to be really careful what you wish for, you know. So yes, I'd wished for to have a nursery and to make change for elephants and make and by association all animals, you know. I think burns really lit me up as far as conservation is concerned. Because then I started to, you know, write like get m much deeper into it. So burns was the beginning, and then it just grew from there, the the the the big picture conservation stuff.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

But once it gets into your heart, every every animal that needs help I have become a little bit more circumspect. I think you know, rescue and and and rehabilitation is not always the right thing to do. Sometimes you can do more damage. Um and I have a thing where um because of all the trauma that everybody's been through here, I have a a a saying on the wall that goes along the lines, we are here to to to to provide comfort and to provide um a safe environment and to encourage this animal to get well. But you know, we're not we can't save everything. We just can't. So you know, we we do what we can, um and we do it uh with everything we've got, but never cause harm. So what I find I have to do is read into where this animal is going. And I'm saying this really particularly on elephants, but it's not just elephant, it might be a small antelope, it might be a bird, it might be a hedgehog, it doesn't matter. But where does this animal want to go? Does this animal want to be left alone, in peace, to die quietly and without pain on her own? Or does she want to fight? And and the message is often very clear, and not to let yourself get in the way of that is incredibly difficult. You know, you get these god complexes or whatever you call them. I haven't got words for them, but you know, you it becomes like a war to fight for the breath. And sometimes that's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

It's not. Well, we were just talking about this the other day, um, also because we had a vet on that actually does, she's a euthanasia vet. So, you know, she often works with me to find out is the animal ready and we're, you know, doing all this different stuff. Because it's not what everybody thinks. Like you're working with wild animals and you're doing a wonderful job and you're recognizing that. I I I do this with domestic as well. And see, everyone's got this thing about oh, wouldn't it be great if you can live to 95 or 100 or you know, everybody wants to keep no, because it's not going to happen and it's not for everyone. And with animals, they're more into quality than than we are, and they're not afraid about leaving here. It's like it's like they've had their journey or they've done their thing, or I'd prefer this, or I'd prefer that, or I don't like all the fuss, or I don't want you all around. It's not a one stream for all animals. It's just not. And when you talk to them, they're very differing in their opinions and in what they want. Even like people who come to me and are regular people who come to me, we work through their animals' health, for instance. Now, vets and whatever might suggest this treatment, we ask the animal. And a lot of the time the animal said, I don't wish to have that. I just wish to progress naturally, to progress wherever it takes me, because I'm actually on a journey and I know the journey I'm on. It's a very interesting area because it's not what a lot of people think. No, every a lot of people think the animal's afraid of don't. They're not. A lot of people think every animal wants to be saved, they don't. And and I agree with you. And it's like, if I can help, I will. If the animal says, leave me, I don't. And it it it's it's about the listening. And I and I think so far in this conversation, I think that's probably the biggest point that we need to listen and we need to see what they want. Because it's actually not up to us what they want, it's up to them. We are merely here to assist and bring them the things that they need. That's how I see my work, and I guess that's how you see yours.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

I think it's it's easing suffering. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

Whatever form that's in, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Exactly. And and don't like push needles and drugs and uh surgeries and immobilizations and and and yes, y you know, you you can do that, but how much damage are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 36:01

This heartfelt conversation is both emotional and deeply inspirational. I can honestly say that meeting Roxy changed my life when I first met her 20 years ago. In part two of this conversation, we'll continue exploring just how important it is to truly listen to animals, whether they're companions who share our homes or the wild beings we encounter in nature. Roxy also shares the powerful story of Moyle, a rescued elephant who became the guiding light both in her life and her work. Make sure you join us for part two.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Standing in the Sarangeti Plains in northern Tanzania, it's the annual migration of 1.5 million wildebeest! Wildebeest to the right! Wildebeest to the left! And a few dozen separate. A great place to stay, but bad place to stand, as is Podcast Unknown Land. You can help us out with that by taking a tiny moment to press the subscribe, download, or follow button so we can have as many followers as there are ouch. But up next, what does the animal think?

SPEAKER_04 37:23

What does the animal think? You might think they like it, do they really? Today I want to share a story that's incredibly close to my heart, and it's also a story that showcases just how life-changing the right care for an animal can be. It's the story of Lucas, a little rescue cat from Sydney, Australia, and the team who helped him start a brand new chapter in Perth. The heroes of this journey are the incredible people at Jet Pets. Now, if you've ever moved home yourself, you know how stressful it can be. But imagine doing it as a cat, in a crate, crossing the country, surrounded by unfamiliar sounds and smells. It's a huge deal for any animal, and that's why choosing the right transport team can make all the difference. Let me take you back to the very start. Lucas came into our care, a beautiful little soul with a gentle nature, with a past unknown. He needed a fresh start, and that fresh start was waiting for him in Perth. But that raised the big question how do we get him safely from one side of Australia to the other? That's where jet pets came in. From the very first phone call, I knew we were dealing with people who get animals. Not just as logistics, but as individuals, as family members, as beings who deserve to feel safe, calm, and careful. Jet pets treated Lucas's move like a personalized gentle journey, not a transfer. But after all, you'd think a trip like that would leave a cat stressed, panting, hiding in the back of the crate, overwhelmed. But when jet pets are involved, not even close. Jet pets treat every animal as if they were their own. And I'll never forget the moment I saw Lucas in Perth. The door opened, his crate came out, and there he was, bright eyed, calm, curious, completely unfazed. I honestly had to laugh. Because if you didn't know he'd just flown across the country, you'd swear he's simply taken a ten minute car ride. That's the jet pet difference. When I lifted him into the car and began driving him to his new home, he settled instantly. He looked so happy. No trembling, no stress. Just a relaxed, trusting little cat, ready to meet his new family. And that's why I'm so grateful to jet pets. When you're responsible for an animal, especially a rescue, you carry their well-being in your hands. There's no room for mistakes, no room for rough handling, no room for close enough is good enough. Jet pets understand that. They understand that animals feel everything, the stress, the movement, the energy, and they go above and beyond to make that journey not just safe, but genuinely comfortable. Choose jet pets first time, every time, no matter where in the world the journey takes you. Approved by Lucas the Cat. Next up, Animal News with Trisha and Dana. Hey Dana, look, I hope you've had a great week. Yeah, totally. Well, it's a lot going on the planet right now, as there always is. Doesn't really matter when you look at it or or when you don't look at it, really. Uh, but we're here about the animals. And there's kind of um, well, I I would say it's a it's a big issue that we need to discuss, but I think it's a complex one as well. And there's a lot of facets to it, and you know, we won't be able to like mention it all, like right now. But I think we'd, you know, kind of get started on it. And it's to do with animal or wildlife, tourism. As much as people might not think about it, or some avoid it, I'm sure, a lot of animals and a lot of practices and activities we do with animals are to do with tourism and making money. And some of them run a fine line with exploitation. And some are running the two levels. Like we're in animal welfare, but on the other hand, I'm looking at it going, are you completely in animal welfare? So I'd like to discuss that in particular first because it's complex. I want to put the good, the bad, and the ugly out there, right? Okay. So let's start. We'll start in Australia, because that's where we are, right? So let's start in Australia. Let's talk about, for instance, koalas. Now, it it's it's an iconic animal. Everyone wishes they had one, but I'm going to try to deter you off that idea anyway. Koalas have a very um iconic diet as well, the gum trees, the eucalyptus, you know. So if habitat gets destroyed, knocks out their food supply, we now have a problem for the koalas. And koalas are fast becoming a very endangered animal. For those who haven't visited Australia, or if you haven't visited one of these centres, there used to only be one place in Australia or one state in Australia that you could actually, other than view a koala, that you can touch a koala, but now you can hold a koala in some places. I think that might be in just one state, but in other places you can touch a koala when there's somebody with authority uh holding that koala. Let's talk about the welfare issue and and you know the tourism issue because just want to put it out there, because welfare, uh, if they are rescuing these animals, it takes money. Hence we come down to the problem again of governments not funding those areas. So, who has to fund it? Some of these organizations are forced to put their animals in a form of tourism to get money to pay for their health and well-being. Okay. Now, we could put this with koalas, we can put it with kangaroos, we can put it with tons of animal Australian animals, and we're going to talk around the world as well, but it can be with tons of animals.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Uh it's not a black and white issue. Absolutely not, because it is, as you said, animal welfare. There are some authentic, absolutely authentic animal welfare sanctuaries that we know of koala sanctuary up in Port Stevens. Uh there's many of them down up in Victoria. Victoria as well. And we know that if for people to feel moved to action, to donate, to care, to understand that we need habitat for these animals and to get more funding than you know, whatever the government's going to give, we know it's never going to be enough. But for us to be so moved as a as a group to create change for these animals, they sometimes feel that they have to have a touchy-touchy experience. They feel they have to either hold or pat or they have to connect in some way that way. But we know that there's other ways of being able to do that. There is other ways to connect with those animals. You don't have to have that touchy-touchy experience. And I'm sure a lot of these animal sanctuaries feel the pressure of do I just go through with it with our most friendliest, for example, friendliest you would say, most handled koala to be able to get that money coming through. And you would hope that that is how the best of intentions is coming through. And that it's not just another tourism company trying to make money off the back of our iconic species.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

Well, mostly with a lot of with koalas and certain animals, you know, either rescuing these animals or putting them in better habitats because they're so uh unique with their habitat. But I wanted us to connect in with koalas because I certainly have. And I've actually asked many koalas about this issue in those centers. And the general consensus is um they just don't get it. They don't know why they have to be constantly handled. They don't know uh, like, okay, one koala uh mentioned about humans having this really weird smell about them. Um and that's not to be not to be rude. I've actually experienced this where um I was actually uh running a workshop, and so I was using um educational reasons to be very careful with koalas. But uh and we actually had a a help, you know, a vet come in with a koala. But at the time, even then, you know, I questioned, and I I spoke to that koala as well. But if you put your hand on their fur and you kind of rub it between your fingers, it actually smells like a eucalyptus smell when you so they have a distinct smell, right? Apparently we do too. Um, and that and and it was very um strong that they didn't really want to get their pores in our skin to check this out. Okay, so they can smell it from quite a way away. So they love sleeping and eating, and they love being high up in a tree, and they love feeling the breeze, and they don't feel uh I I I'm sorry to upset people out there, but they don't feel the need to be handled, touched, fur, face in fur, or any other reason because they find it quite um unreal. They find it quite strange. All right. So I what I'm trying to get at is for people to, when they are perhaps involved in this animal tourism of such, or if you're going to see and view animals, then just have a thought for what it's like for that animal. Stop thinking about the relatives you're with and how it's all interesting and all of the noise, because these animals are usually out in dead quiet, uh, or only the sound of birds, certainly not bustling people and cafes cooking up, should I say, hamburgers, uh, and thing and hot chips? It's not what they're used to or what they particularly want. And I'm just trying to bring everyone back to reality is does that animal really enjoy the experience that you're enjoying? And how much are you willing to put on the line to make that animal happy, or don't you really care? So it's kind of it's kind of good because if you've got a zoo, and and don't get me wrong, not all zoo animals are unhappy to be in a zoo. I'm just gonna put that out there because I used to work with zoos and they have breeding programs to help with the extinctions and all of these things. So let's not, we're not trying to put it in a bad bag. But we're trying to say is that sometimes it's good to know that species is there because otherwise you may never have even known it existed. Because even koalas are only found in certain places, out of sight, out of mind. So I understand why these places need to bring it to the public to get public, they're public interested enough to want to help these animals and perhaps fund it. What I'd like to say to everyone out there is why can't we just fund it to let these animals be where they've always been? And the only reason they've been displaced is 90% of the time because of us. How do you see that, Dana?

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Well, I think people got to go back to how exciting is it when you see an animal so iconic in the wild? If you are out doing a hike or doing a walk, how excited do you see when you see kangaroos in the wild? That to me is the best feeling, is the most exciting feeling because you've seen them in their natural habitat. If we could see koalas in their natural habitat, you would be ecstatic. And I think that's got to be the motivator that we need to be building up that following, that support with the funds that we have and encouraging for those funds to go to that kind of place to make that happen. So we can see them again in the wild because where that's where they belong. And that way they've got their home back too.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

Well, interesting enough, where I live, about 15 minutes north of here, is actually exactly that. Because apparently koalas are not native to Western Australia. So we've got um a sanctuary there which has kangaroos just roaming in the wild, and they actually hang out by the lake and hang out, and people are very respectful there. They just walk past them. Some will give them a little bit of a uh a nudge, and the kangaroos have said to me they don't mind it because it's a big area and they're not locked up. So I think that's a big thing for them. But they've also got this other section, which is just all these beautifully huge tall trees, because it's just all bush, and they've kind of put, you know, a cafe and things there for tourism, but they're very uniquely made and strategically placed. So somebody's put a lot of thought into it. And so you can do this little walkway along this wooden kind of little bridge thing, and you can look up and if you're lucky enough, and you can see koalas high up in the trees. It's all natural, they're not in a cage, they're not kept there. They've just got this group of trees which is for their diet, and those koalas are cared for by rangers to make sure nobody does anything they shouldn't. But these koalas are literally just living there free, living a best life, and there's no touching, there's just looking and picture taking. You can't touch them, they don't bring them down. To my knowledge, I've I've not seen it there if they've done that since then. But that's the idea. So everybody just goes there and somebody will come and give a talk about it to educate about it. But the one I had, um, the education process, the guy was very informative, but he had a koala behind him, but he wasn't holding him or anything, it was just in a tree. So he put his talk along the bridge where the koala was, the other way around, right? And then the koala was just quite happy to sit there and munch on his leaves because nobody was touching and everyone was silent. There was just one person talking. So there's ways that we can do it that the animals will thrive. And those koalas just seemed so happy there when I spoke to them. And then they said, when it gets too much, we just go higher. So they can get away at will. And I think we maybe need to look at this in all perspectives, not when they're confined to a cage and they have to have that level of contact every day. Because I've been in zoos, I've run educational programs in zoos, and I'm going to tell you something that I think probably everyone knows. The animals are far different during the nine to five than they are before and after hours. Now I had access before and after hours, and after hours, the animals breathed a sigh of relief. It's like if you had nonstop guests visiting your home all day on the weekend in both days, you'd get to Monday Monday and be thankful for work because it's too much. So we have to be thinking about that. And maybe the zoos and other places of captivity just shouldn't be open seven days a week. They've got to have off days as well. We like a weekend. Well, maybe they like a weekend too, but their weekend might be midweek. But I think they need it. So what do you think about let's let's get into captivity, Donna?

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Captivity is an interesting one because, as we both know, we've spoken to them and there's a lot of animals that don't like it. Would rather be taking their chances in the wild. And there are others that go, you know what, it's not a bad gig at all. I get fed, I get what I want, I'm protected from other species that, you know, would be predators to me. It's a it's a double-edged sword, not a double-edged sword, it's more of a it's a it's a let me start again. They get to have both sides, both parts of that world. Some animals want to live in the wild and would want to take their chances in the wild, whereas others think, you know, it's a pretty good arrangement. You get fed, you're protected from your natural predators, and yeah, you got put up with some people every now and again, but you can make it work. And so I think it's we have to look at each one and see what they what we can do to make it better, how we can make it more enriching. How can we make sure that they get to be that ambassador for their species too? And I think a lot of well, some animals do love to be able to give that to be that ambassador. It's quite experienc quite interesting experience because we've done quite a few of these at the zoos, right?

SPEAKER_04 54:35

Yeah. And and it's not to poo-hoo zoos, they they do a lot of amazing work, but I think again, it's very, very expensive to have these animals there and even the breeding programs and even what they're doing. But the hope would be that they never take an animal out of the wild to put it in a zoo. It's come to the zoo as a rescue animal or as an injured animal or an animal that can't be released. There's a couple of things involved in in captivity that we have to look at. Like you were saying that some are happy to be in captivity. They are, but most of the reasons is because we've affected the wild. You know, we've either taken their habitat or there's too many people there, or and we'll go into poachers, but there's too much going on there. And uh, in the case of some tawny frog mouths, they're birds, uh, you know, native to Australia, if if anyone's listening and doesn't know, but they these particular birds wanted to stay in captivity because they said that their predators have changed. So they are no longer safe from their natural predators. And I said, What do you mean? And their natural predators might be foxes or other birds or, you know, but they were showing me dogs and cats. So that's something that's been introduced by us. So we've made it in a situation where they're looking for captivity to survive, which I think is really not a good thing. It's a it's a very detrimental thing. If we're going to keep animals in captivity, we have to make it so that it's as natural as possible. And we need to get funding from governments to do this. And the people can help as well. But we we need to put them in natural habitats, not tiny little cages, because there's no stimulation. And the people, don't get me wrong, the people who look after these animals absolutely love them, would do anything for them. They wish the situation could be different, but they do their very best. And I'm grateful for that. And I know a lot of these people, so you know, uh congratulations to you guys. But unfortunately, is it always the best for the animal? No, because even as much as these people do that and they try to recreate, you can't recreate nature, not really. You can't recreate freedom, you can't recreate the naturalness that they choose of the habitat and the place that they choose, that you we've still taken their choices. So we have to be thinking about these things to make it as great as ever. And and I'm gonna put it out there, if these places don't have an animal communicator on site, then you're really just playing a one-sided game. You're really just listening to yourself and the finance and the this and the that. You're not listening to the animal. And if you think you can govern all this by body language, well, think again, because we know far greater than that. What do you think, Donna, on the animal communications scale?

SPEAKER_02 57:51

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. If you want a really successful program to help them, you need an animal communicator in there. If you're not, you're gonna miss the ball every time.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

And if they don't have an animal communicator, then you need to learn how to be one. As I said to you, animal communication is a choice. You can learn it or not. Can anyone be an animal communicator? Can anyone talk with animals? They can if they want to. It's just that you need to put the time and effort in, and yes, you yes, you can. So we are only ever getting a one-sided story. So I want you to imagine that if we gagged a few humans, oh, that sounds a bit off, but if we gagged a few humans and then we're talking to them over coffee, but we've got them gagged, yeah, what a great thing, all about you. Because it's all about you. Until that other person speaks, it's all about you. It's the other person's opinion. That's why you and I sitting here and saying, What's your opinion on this, Donna? Oh, what's my opinion on this? Because there's this it's it's two-way. It's not one way, but it always is with animals. Well, as we wrap up part one of this deeply important conversation, I just want to leave you with something to really sit with. Everything we've spoken about today, from wildlife tourism to captivity, to the everyday choices we make, it all comes back to one simple question. Are we truly considering the animal? Not just what we want, not just what we feel, but what they experience. Because when we begin to shift our awareness, even slightly, we start to change everything for them and ultimately for ourselves. And to those incredible humans out there working tirelessly for animals, the rescuers, the carers, the volunteers, the ones who sacrifice sleep, time, and so much of themselves. We see you, we honor you, and we thank you. In part two, we're going even deeper. We're going to explore the harder truths from poaching and global impact to what animals experienced during COVID and what that revealed about us as a species. So stay with us because this conversation is far from over. And if you enjoyed this episode of Animal Talk with Trisha McKay, please follow, subscribe, and share the podcast with someone who loves animals as much as you do. Because when we truly listen, only then can learning and inspiration begin.