The B-I-B-L-E

Episode 71 - The B-I-B-L-E

Official transcript: https://www.cheynemusic.com/transcripts

Hosts: Jan, Rob, Dee, & Jim.

Having been raised in a Protestant evangelical church, what role does the Bible currently play in our lives? Is it inspired? Infallible? Inerrant? Not surprisingly, our regard of scripture is ever in transition.

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Transcript

JIM (voice-over): I would bet that this chorus is on everyone’s Top Ten Sunday School Songs list. It goes like this:

“The B-I-B-L-E,

Yes, that’s the book for me;

I stand alone on the Word of God,

The B-I-B-L-E.”

We sang that as kids, and if I can remember that far back, I think we had motions to go along with it, too, and we shaped the letters B-I-B-L-E as if they were Y-M-C-A, or something. If you planned it right, while you did the motions, you could kick the kid next to you on the letter E and get away with it - I discovered.

It’s a simple song, just for kids. The problem is, though, some kids never really grow beyond it, and you’ll meet them one day, maybe not in Sunday School this time, but in, say, well, Bible study’s a likely place, and if it’s a good Bible study, you have discussions that push beyond familiar ideas, and you’ll have more questions than answers, and then someone will snap back with “Well, the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.” It’s almost their Harry Potter charm against the dark art of critical thinking.

But, let’s be understanding. For some people, that’s the only answer they’ll ever need. For the rest of us, though, when instrusive, disturbing questions come, critical thinking is the critical guide for us as we are Making Our Way.

Or so we like to believe. Let’s be honest. Critical thinking - the genuine article - is elusive. We are often overwhelmed, or too lazy, or distracted, or just too comfortable with someone else at the helm to give critical thought the consistent attention we ought to give it. It’s much simpler just to run to trusted authorities to help us know, “What do I think now?”

Sorry. I was just suppposed to give a brief introduction to this week’s episode called, “The B-I-B-L-E,” which, as luck would have it, discusses these very ideas.

JIM: In our upbringing, the first thing a Salvationist learns is doctrine number one.

“We believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testament[s] were given by inspiration of God and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.”

We put that at the beginning. All that we teach, think, and do has to do with the authority of Scripture. You guys every Sunday recite the Nicene Creed, is that right?

JAN: We do.

ROB: Mm-Hmm.

JIM: The Nicene Creed, the Apollo’s Creed. The Apollo’s Creed. That’s good. [laughter] The Nicene Creed, the Apostles’ Creed, don’t put any statement about scripture in them. And so you think, “Well, where are you supposed to get your information?” So I’ve got a Bible question for you. And this is multiple choice. The four answers start with “In.” Multiple choice. Complete this sentence. “The Bible is:” A) inspired; B) infallible; C) inerrant; D) in the drawer at the local Holiday Inn.  

DEE: Inspired.  

JIM: So “inspired” is - that is something that has been produced by people above perhaps their normal output. “Infallible” means trustworthy in religious ideas, doctrines. “Inerrant” is every single word is exactly right and there’s no error any place. And the drawer at the Holiday Inn - and do they still put Bibles in drawers?

JAN: Yes, they do.

ROB: Yeah, they do.

JIM: Is the Gideon Society still doing this?

JAN: I don’t…

ROB: Yeah.

JIM: Or is it just…

DEE: It - doesn’t it have to do with the thought people are suicidal?  

JIM: There’s always something right there to help people because…

JAN: You’re right.

JIM: …let’s just say that is a a beneficial thing, not a proselytizing thing. So, Rob, the Bible is inspired, infallible, inerrant, in the drawer at the Holiday Inn?

ROB: A and D. It’s inspired. 

JIM: Inspired?

ROB: I believe it’s inspired. I believe that there has been some direction from a higher being in relating the information that’s in the scripture. How it was put together is a little shaky.

JIM: Dee, what would you say?  

DEE: I would say it’s inspired, and the reason why I come to that is because of all of the contradictions that are in the Bible. It’s full of history, it’s full of parables, it’s full of stories, it’s full of facts, it’s full of interpretation, and I believe it’s inspired, and that in reading it and studying it, you get to know the mind of God, the spirit of God, the intent. And we’re supposed to struggle with it. If every word was actual fact, we would be left with total contradictions and confusion. And we are supposed to struggle with the meaning. I think it’s written in a way that people bring their personalities - who they are as individuals, their life experiences - to read it the way they do. And people read it differently. The truth you bring with it is all those things brought together which you could say is inspired by God. If God is in control of your life, then your experiences, your personality, all of those things that help you interpret the scriptures is inspired by God.  

JAN: I would say inspired, but in a very broad sense. I’ve come from a very strong sense of inspired, to a lot of what we currently define as scripture is an attempt by people to describe God from where they sit in their culture, and in their history, and in their understanding of how the world works. So it’s a little bit nebulous. I’m okay with that.  

JIM: So in all the discussion about the Bible being inspired, I’m trying to figure out what the Bible’s role is in everyone’s life. Is it a primary source for belief? Is it a nice thing to read sometimes? Is it inspirational? Is our primary focus of pointing things out and saying, “I’m gonna say yes to this, say no to that?” - Is it the Bible? Is it personal preference? What is the bottom line trigger for a choice of one thing…

DEE: Well…

JIM: …over another?  

DEE: …I would say the Bible is my source to know Christ. That is the source that gives me the man and my lord.

JIM: Okay, so it’s an information text.

DEE: Yeah, and it teaches me - without it I would not know Christ. I would not know his teachings. I would not know…

JIM: So in what case would it have to be inspired to provide you that information? Why is “inspiration” a functioning word in that definition?  

DEE: Because it’s complex and like I said before, there are contradictions. I mean you can look - like, you have a lot of the Old Testament contradicts a lot of what’s in the New Testament. So that’s where I come to the inspired, but…

JAN: You’re saying “inspired” as opposed to “inerrant.”

DEE: Right, yes.

JAN: But what I think Jim is asking is, what separates it, what makes it - forget the inerrant and all that - what makes it higher than any other document in what informs you  

DEE: I think because it’s the source. I believe without the Bible we would not know Christ. Period. 

JIM: Okay. When we say “the Bible,” I think we have to be more specific about it, because we assume the Bible that is found in the drawer in a Holiday Inn.  

DEE: Right, and is it…

JIM: But there are many different types of Bible.

DEE: …we could go back to the original manuscripts and different…

JIM: None of which we have. This is the problem. I early on had a problem with inerrancy because we could say, “The Lord has dictated everything so that human authors are simply stenographers.” And my first objection would be, then why don’t we have that? And why don’t we have anything that resembles a consistency in that? And then how do we know what parameters to put out of - I mean there are something like 40 Gospels about Jesus. Why do we only elevate four?  

JAN: When I was at U of M, I took a Bible as literature class.  

JIM: Oh, here we go.  

JAN: I know. Liberal institution. I took a Bible as literature class from which I learned amazing things, but what’s funny to me is, at the beginning of the class, I realized I was out of my depth. And so I wrote in the beginning of my notebook, “These are the things I’m taught in this class, but not the things I believe.” You know, I had to have a disclaimer at the beginning because this was a view of scripture I had never considered or even known existed. So it pushed me out of my comfort zone to have to look at scripture with some different eyes. And a similar thing happened when I took cultural anthropology, and looked at other faith systems of the world, specifically Native American. There’s flood stories here, and there are flood stories here. and I thought my flood story was unique. Oh wait, it’s not. And what does that mean? There is a way you can explain that away as a young, naive person, because I, of course, hold “the corner on truth.” And then there’s a way you have to come to terms with it. I’ve had to come to terms with new knowledge - new knowledge of how this Bible that I hold and thought basically got handed over in in mass really was not that. It was a compilation of a lot of different things. And people made decisions about what was in and what was out. So what do I do with that?  

ROB: I think our college experience was one of those defining moments, too. We were brought up under an, uh, belief, an inerrant Bible. Wouldn’t you say? The Salvation Army?

JAN: Yeah, I would say.

ROB: That’s how they believe it. And what I learned from my grandfather was that there was evidence in the Bible showing that what we were taught as children in the Bible, things weren’t necessarily that way, not necessarily true. But I’m sure Grandpa, I’m pretty sure Grandpa still believed in an inerrant scripture. But he read it in a way that, when I started looking at it in the way that he looked at it, it was like, “Well, this doesn’t make sense that we believe this, or that that this this thing exists when I don’t see any evidence for it in scripture. Then gradually it was a shift away from a literal version of the Bible. The Old Testament sounds a lot like a very primitive people trying to describe the world around them, and how it came into being, and a higher power that must have been in charge of that. Now I’ve gradually moved away from the literal to, “What is God really saying to me through the words in Scripture?” It’s still important. I believe, like Dee, that it’s the primary way that we learn about God and about Christ. But I just can’t accept it as literal anymore. There are too many conflicts.  

JIM: This takes me to Norman Bearcroft, obviously. You saw me going there. Yeah, yeah. Norman Bearcroft used the word inspiration this way. You know, sitting on the board, compositions come to London.

“You should publish this. I’ve just finished it.”

And they look at it and they say, “Yeah, maybe yes, maybe no.”

And so a woman sent a composition in, a song, whatever it was, and said, “I want you to publish this. This was given to me by God. It was an inspired piece of music.”

And they look at it. “Well, perhaps it doesn’t quite fit the needs of our journals at this ti-”

“Oh, no, no, no, you must publish this. This was inspired by God.”

“Well, you know, we’re looking at it and we’re thinking that, how is it going to fit in with things? And that…”

“No, no, no, you must publish this in The Salvation Army. This was given me by inspiration of God.”

And Norman Bearcroft reports the response was, “Are you sure you wrote it down exactly the way He gave it to you?” Because there was some question about the quality of it.

So are we sure that the Bible writers wrote it down exactly as they were given it? And are we sure we have the exact things that they wrote? And are we sure that the people that decided who was going in the Bible and who wasn’t had the same level of inspiration? And are we sure that the people who have translated it to other languages have done that with the same level of inspiration?

So, maybe if I could try it this way. Is there a major idea that, if your 20-year-old self were to hear you say it today, that 20-year-old self would go, “What happened to me?” I picked 20 because it was right at this nexus of Salvation Army versus university. You’re closer to twenty than any of us, Dee.  

DEE: I’ve always been the kind of person to question and say, “Why?” Or be willing to say, “Yeah, let me hear that idea or that thought,” because if it’s true, it will pan out. If it’s a falsehood, that will be exposed. I remember, when I was 20 years old, struggling with working at a Baptist church. “Why do I have to be water baptized? Please explain this to me.” And I had a number of Baptists tell me why I have to be. And I said, “Do you want to tell me I’m not a Christian because I’m not water baptized? But I had a different ceremony in The Salvation Army Church? Why is that not legitimate enough? My profession of Christ, accepting him into my Heart is not enough? Now you want to talk about works because you say you’re saved by grace, by faith, and not by works? Because - and I argued this with my pastor, because I got sarcastic. I said, “Am I going to just have water poured on me?” “No, that’s not good enough.” “Why is that not good enough? Do - am I going to be partially dunked or I have to be fully?” I have to be fully dunked. I said, “Well, if we’re going to go this way,” - and he - the model that was used, the way Christ was baptized, John the Baptist. I said, “Well then, if I gotta be dunked, then it’s gotta be in a lake. Because that’s how Christ was. It’s not gonna work if it’s just in one of these little kiddie pools or whatever we use.”  

JIM: Do they sell them that way? Kiddie pool slash baptismal?  

DEE: I don’t know, but that really got me because I’ve always questioned. I have not taken an authority as the word of, “Well you have to do it this way because I say so, because the church tells us.” “No, you’ve gotta give me a good reason to believe that.” 

JIM: Jan, where are you when you’re 20? Are you at Colorado State yet?

JAN: No. I’m at Michigan.

JIM: So Michigan. The twenty year old you would be looking at you today. What would be the most salient point of that is quite different?  

JAN: I read scripture differently today than I did when I was twenty. I would have looked at scripture at that time as an instruction book for life. I don’t do that anymore. And that’s been a process of learning more about how we ended up with the Bible we have, understanding more about the way that I came to my original faith, and then - which is really by being born into it, not by finding it in some way. I’m a product of where I was born, under the circumstances I was born, in the church my parents went to. That’s my initial faith. Since then I have moved in other directions. But it mostly comes from, okay, I take this book, it doesn’t work as an instruction book from my life. There are inconsistencies. I know more now about how it came together. I know more now about the decisions that were made to say, “This is it.” And so, I look at the scripture now as more, these are how people saw God. These are the important pieces that seem to come through and are consistent throughout. I’m very much drawn to the teachings of Jesus, and they resonate with me. So I take that as my foundation.  

JIM: You mentioned a triad that Rob had mentioned in a previous podcast episode and that had to do with the scripture, the tradition, and the reason…

JAN: Mm-Hmm.

JIM: …and those three - I don’t know if you describe them as a triad or three pillars or whatever.

JAN: A stool. A stool.

ROB: They - stool.

JIM: Stool. Does one of those win over the other two?  

ROB: No, not for me. Scripture and reason go right together.  

JAN: Yeah, I would say tradition would be the weakest link.

ROB: Yeah.

JAN: But I still think it’s valuable, because it’s recognizing - you know, again, it requires some study. But it’s recognizing that other people have also struggled with these same things and they’ve come to some decisions. I don’t always agree with those, so I’m - there’s a balance, there’s an equilibrium, I suppose. I don’t look at it in in such a black and white way, I think. Tradition guides a church. There’s a tradition that guides the church, but the church can make different decisions going forward. “Are we going to ordain women?” “No, no, no, no, no. Yes.” “Okay, what changed in there?” “The culture, our understanding of women, its roles, what they could be.” So it’s a fallacy to say it should always be the same. No, of course not. We have to address the culture that we live in. And that’s not giving in to culture. It’s recognizing that people in this culture are not maybe the way we’ve always defined them. I get a, uh, Friday update from a from an officer, and he talked about how the number of trans people and non-binary has gone down. Well, interesting. I’ve got a lot of questions about that comment. Why do you think it’s gone down? Has it become too dangerous to say? Have we eliminated services for those people? Have we denigrated it so much that they’ve gone back in hiding? Or has it really gone down?” You throw something like that out there as if, “Oh, it’s a win for something.” No. People are in fear. So, I don’t know. That really…

JIM: So interpreting a data point like that is pretty much the same as interpreting scripture. You’ve got an idea and you want scripture to back you up, you can find it. The way you made that argument has to be the way also that others can make arguments against you, and you won’t like it when it happens. If I use the process that you just used to marginalize this group, and I use that same process and it marginalizes you, you’re gonna say the process is wrong. And if it’s wrong when you’re the victim of it, it’s also wrong when you’re in the power…

JAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JIM: …holding the power for it. I think - I haven’t found it yet - St. Augustine made a statement of, “All truth is God’s truth.” Okay?

JAN: Yeah.

JIM: If it is a true thing, it’s because it’s from God. But the fundamental idea is, you should not fear the investigation. You should not fear doubt. Faith itself requires the capacity to doubt everything you believe…

DEE: Yeah.

JAN: Yeah.

JIM: …because, otherwise, it’s simple automaton obedience. It’s not faith at all. When I think about Mother Teresa, “There’s an example of faith.” No, there’s an example, by her letters, of lifelong doubt. “I don’t hear any voice. I say these things to other people. I don’t experience it. What am I supposed to do?” The actual doubt that makes faith possible. So when you did your Bible as literature course… 

JAN: Oh, I won’t remember very much about it.

JIM: No, no, no. Do you remember anything that was said: ”Wow, I didn’t know that.”  

JAN: Uh, Jesus had brothers.  

JIM: Brothers and sisters.  

JAN: And Mary wasn’t a virgin her whole whole life. Those are the things that stand out, not because I believed them because they were shocking to some of the people in the room...  

JIM: Yeah.  

JAN: …and I sat back and and listened and thought, “Wow.” And I think it was the first time I considered that the Bible could be looked at in another way besides just as scripture that was to give me a path in life, that you could look at the scriptural context, that you needed to know this is poetry, this is not a historical outline of what happened. This is a parable and what does that mean? It is that sort of look at the context, look at what kind of literature it is, what is the point of the story, not just, “Pick up your Bible and open to any page to find that blessing that’s for you.” Well, no, that’s not how I would approach scripture at all. I’ve got to know where does it come from? What was the point? If somebody is so certain that they are correct, and they are going to use scripture to prove that I am not, I will probably just back away from that argument. I will not engage in the scripture tit for tat, because in order to bring them along to my understanding, I wouldn’t know where to begin. Okay? I’ve been through one of those recently where somebody’s throwing some scripture verses at me and didn’t understand why I didn’t come back with an answer to those scripture verses. “Well, you’re taking them out of context and not using them in the correct way.” But anyway, I want to always have doubt. I want to always question. And I want to be open for a new understanding come tomorrow morning. I will learn more, I will understand more. I know more about science right now than I did when I was in high school. I don’t need to believe that the Genesis story actually happened in six days to believe that this is an understanding that God brought this earth into being. I don’t need those two things to be to exist together. And I know that other people will judge me for that, and that’s fine. Let ‘em. I have a different understanding, and they’ll either accept, or want to know more, or they’ll reach out to me. 

ROB: That won’t bother you at all.

[Laughter]

JAN: Well it will. I’ll lose sleep over it. I’ll wake up in the middle of the night and try to come up with something to say, but that’s because I always think, “Just engage people in conversation and you can find a common ground.” I’ve been proven wrong a lot in the last couple of weeks.

JIM:  Well you can try. And then there’s there is a scriptural mandate to shake the dust off your feet…

JAN: Yes. I’m trying to do that.

JIM: …and move on to another village.  

DEE: You see the difference is: you want to learn; the other person is probably not coming at it from the same perspective and they want to be right.  

JAN: I really honestly believe that God is so much bigger than I used to think. And you know, that whole expression, “You’re God is too small”? And and I’m at the other end of that now. I think, “Who thinks God can’t handle doubt?

DEE: Exactly.

JAN: Questioning? Whatever?  

DEE: I remember testimony period one Sunday. One of the people got up to testify, and he was advising the young people who are about to go to university - and this is ironic because he was also a teacher - saying, “Be careful when you go to university ‘cause they’re gonna try and fill your mind with these ideas, and you have to hold on to your faith,” and it’s like, “Hold on. Are you saying God is really that small?”  

JIM: What he was really saying was, “Up to this point in your religious education, we’ve told you what to believe.”  

DEE: Exactly.

JIM: “And now some other people…”

ROB: Yeah.

DEE: Yes.

JIM: “…are going to tell you some other things and we’re kind of worried you’re hearing somebody else.”

DEE: “And you’re not going to be able to handle it because we didn’t teach you well.”

JIM: And we didn’t give you the foundation.  

DEE: Yes.  

ROB: My…

JIM: There’s…

ROB: …my twenty year old self would be shocked at how how big God really is. Because he was very small at twenty.  

DEE: Yes.

JAN: I never looked at the church, in any church I’ve been in, as the authority on what I was gonna believe. I always thought my belief is - and I don’t really like the word belief - but my faith was bigger, broader than whatever could be conveyed to me from a pulpit. So.

JIM (voice-over): And just like that, we’ve solved centuries of theological conundrums in less that 30 minutes. Or do you think we’ve omitted an item or two? If you’re listening on YouTube, the comment section below is our suggestion box. Feel free to use it. You’ll find it near the “Like” and “Subscribe” buttons. Feel free to use those, too. If you’re listening on a podcast app, did you know you can also listen on YouTube? - where this episode is titled, “Episode 71 - The B-I-B-L-E,” and where you can also find the “Like” and “Subscribe” buttons. They’re nearby the comment section, which you can use as a suggestion box.

And with that, I would like to thank you for your company today. Thank you for joining us on this journey.

Until next time.