Lisa Jacobson on the Race to Power America’s Next Era

America’s energy system has entered a new phase.

After years of relatively flat electricity demand, the country is now facing sustained growth driven by data centers, industrial expansion, electrification, reshoring, aging infrastructure, and rising resilience needs. The challenge is no longer just how quickly the U.S. can decarbonize. It is how quickly the country can build enough power while protecting reliability, affordability, and long-term emissions progress.

In this episode of Green Giants: Titans of Renewable Energy, Wes Ashworth, President of Lee Group Search, welcomes back Lisa Jacobson, President of the Business Council for Sustainable Energy, to unpack the findings of the 2026 Sustainable Energy in America Factbook.

Lisa explains why this moment is different from previous periods of load growth, how urgency could help break years of infrastructure inertia, and why no single technology can meet the challenge alone. She makes the case for a broad portfolio that includes renewable energy, storage, natural gas, nuclear, energy efficiency, demand flexibility, sustainable transportation, and smarter use of existing grid assets.

The conversation also examines the growing impact of large electricity users. Data centers are an important part of the demand story, but the episode goes far beyond AI. Wes and Lisa explore what rising load means for utilities, regulators, communities, manufacturers, households, and businesses across the country.

A central question runs throughout the episode: Who pays for the infrastructure required to power America’s next era?

Lisa discusses the need to protect households and small businesses from unfair cost allocation, the role large customers can play in funding grid upgrades or bringing new power resources, and how regulators can evaluate projects based on local capacity, flexibility, community benefit, and long-term risk.

The episode also covers the technologies being deployed now. Solar and battery storage continue to lead new capacity additions because they can often move quickly and compete economically. At the same time, firm resources, existing nuclear assets, natural gas, long-duration storage, efficiency, virtual power plants, microgrids, and demand response all have distinct roles to play.

Wes and Lisa also examine:

• Why energy efficiency should be treated as infrastructure
• How smart meters and flexible demand can reduce grid strain
• What utilities and regulators should ask before approving major new loads
• Why storage is becoming more important to grid operations
• How corporate clean energy procurement is reshaping the market
• What policy uncertainty means for real projects and investment decisions
• Which technologies emerged stronger from recent tax and policy changes
• Why speed, cost, reliability, and sustainability must be solved together

Lisa closes with a practical message for governors, regulators, and policymakers: align economic development with reliable, affordable, and clean energy, then give the private sector the market signals needed to build.

This episode is a clear-eyed look at the next chapter of the U.S. power system and what it will take to meet rising demand without losing sight of consumers, communities, or climate goals.

Links:
2026 Sustainable Energy in America Factbook
Lisa Jacobson on LinkedIn
BCSE's Website

Wes Ashworth: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weslgs/

• Email: wes@leegroupsearch.com
• https://leegroupsearch.com/green-giants-podcast/
• https://leegroupsearch.com/

Transcript

Wes Ashworth (00:24)

Welcome back to Green Giants, Titans of Renewable Energy. Today we're welcoming back Lisa Jacobson, President of the Business Council for Sustainable Energy. Lisa has joined us before, but the energy landscape she returns to looks a bit different. For years, the power sector was shaped by relatively flat electricity demand and a familiar question: how fast can we decarbonize? Now the question has expanded. AI, data centers, electrification, reshoring, and resilience needs are pushing electricity demand higher, and that pressure is landing directly on grids, utilities, regulators, consumers, and companies trying to build infrastructure at speed.

Wes Ashworth (00:58)

The 2026 Sustainable Energy in America Factbook gives us a powerful lens into that shift. It shows record investment, record storage additions, major clean energy deployment, rising power prices, growing data center demand, policy turbulence, and a very real affordability challenge. So today, Lisa and I are going to unpack what this new phase really means.

What gets built, who pays, how fast we can move, and how we can meet rising demand without sacrificing reliability, affordability, or emissions progress. With that,

Wes Ashworth (01:27)

Lisa, welcome back to the show.

Lisa Jacobson (01:29)

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Wes Ashworth (01:30)

It's great to have you back. Really thoroughly enjoyed our conversation last time and really excited to get into it. So, as I said there in the intro, since the last time you joined us, the clean energy conversation feels like it's shifted from how fast can we decarbonize to how fast can we build enough power for everything coming at the grid? From your perspective at BCSE, what feels most different about this moment?

Lisa Jacobson (01:51)

Well, I think your opening really put it all together. There's so many different factors impacting energy markets around the world. And here in North America and the United States in particular, we're definitely seeing that load growth and that is defining all the conversations we are having about energy right now. You know, in the power sector in particular, you know, we've seen that pivot from, as you said, nearly two decades of flat electricity growth. We are seeing percentage growth increases and we are anticipating very significant growth in the next five to ten years. When you look out even further, I'd love to share with you a stat that was just released from the National Electrical Manufacturers Association. They're saying that electricity demand will grow 55% by 2050. I mean this is astronomical change and they revised it. They had that stat out at about fifty percent, which was also quite large, but just in recent weeks have revised it up to 55%. So whatever the level is, we're in a different moment.

Wes Ashworth (02:56)

Very strong place to start. And 55% that even caught me off guard. And I hear this a lot. That's a big number, just for context. And you know, it does feel like a new chapter. The conversation is really no longer about replacing existing generation, about expanding the system under pressure. So that's remarkable, you know, hearing that kind of stat as well. And no matter what, I think we can all agree on the increase is here and coming.

So you lead BCSE, which we've talked about before, but it's a coalition that spans efficiency, renewables, natural gas storage, sustainable transportation, other energy solutions. In a year defined by just demand growth and affordability pressure and policy disruption. Where has that maybe broad coalition view become more valuable? And are there any places where it's maybe become a little bit harder?

Lisa Jacobson (03:39)

I mean it's definitely valuable when policymakers and communities are thinking about, you know, their energy needs and how they're going to plan and chart their energy future. One of the things we've learned, certainly as long as I've been in this sector, which is going back several decades now, is it really is about a portfolio. There are no one or two technology solutions that are gonna work for the long term, that are gonna provide us the affordability, the reliability.

The resilience, the sustainability that we need. And organizations like the Business Council for Sustainable Energy, we bring together that portfolio. And this has been the portfolio that has defined the U.S. Energy marketplace for several decades. When you put together efficiency, natural gas, renewable energy, these are the drivers of our energy economy. And they're very well suited for this moment as well because they provide that balance. You know, they support each other and as a portfolio can serve pretty much any community's needs.

Wes Ashworth (04:42)

I think that is really important. Even this podcast, I introduce so many different technologies and so many different, you know, perspectives of the entire energy transition. And I think that coalition lens is especially valuable right now, just as you said, is no single technology can really solve it all. And so we need all these kind of working together and harmoniously, and you guys help bring that together as well. So we touched on a little bit in the intro the this year's Sustainability Energy in America Factbook. But If you had to reduce that, you know, to just one sentence, what is the story that it tells about where our energy system is right now?

Lisa Jacobson (05:15)

Well, you know, with demand growth, I think the story of 2025, and I would argue 2026 is that clean energy and energy efficiency are still dominating investment and deployment in the US marketplace.

Wes Ashworth (05:30)

Absolutely, always good to hear and I agree with that. You're hearing that over and over again. So to understand, I guess, you know, get into this more and understand these pressure points, I think we have to start with the biggest shift in the report, which is demand, as we've been touching on here. So for years the US power sector could plan, you know, around this relatively flat electricity consumption. Now that assumption is breaking. So as we've talked about, you know, for more than a decade or more, US electricity demand really flat.

Now demand is really rising. You know, starting hearing those kind of numbers of like 55%. Wow. Cause You know, six percent is a big percentage.

So I guess what changed we've hit on a couple of those, any more context there. And like, why does this moment really feel different, maybe from previous cycles where we have had an increase?

Lisa Jacobson (06:09)

Yeah, I mean I think you'll hear from a lot of people two other commentaries. One is the urgency and the speed with which we need to grow. So it's not just that we're in a growth mindset and people are coming to terms with that, is that it really needs to be fast. It needs it needs to be fast, aside from, you know, kind of the big the big driver of a lot of the conversation is AI data centers. But let's park AI data centers for a moment. What was going on in the last several years prior to this recognition of the speed with which you know the energy sector needed to expand in the United States, we have aging infrastructure. And so many of our power generation facilities, a lot of our infrastructure across the entire sector, not just the power sector, you know, was built decades ago. And we were in a position where we needed to make investments, and those were quite challenging, really.

You know, it was not easy to get support from regulators and others to make the investments we need to, you know, keep our energy system affordable and reliable. So there were some pain points there. The other thing that's occurring in many parts of the country is we're experiencing the impacts of climate change, that be wildfires or extreme weather events that are really taxing, in many cases, this already aging infrastructure. So we need to spend money to kind of keep up with that. You know, if we're having events and it impacts energy infrastructure, you know, that has to be fixed very quickly and that adds up. So I think regulators and communities, you know, really for the last decade or more have been faced with that dynamic. But when you're not in a situation where the public or regulators think that we need to bring in a lot more investment to meet new growth, it was very hard to get the support for advancing, you know, the longer term investments that are needed to mitigate against natural disasters and weather events, as well as, you know, kind of retool our energy infrastructure. So in one way, even though it's challenging in the moment that we're in to move forward with the speed that's necessary, the urgency and the speed is driving more action. And that's what we kind of suffered from in the last decade. We had some good policies that could help the energy sector plan, but we didn't have the public and the regulating community kind of on board to move quickly with the things that we might need to be able to realize that. So now we have this opportunity where people are aware, there's you know a speed that's needed to move forward, and my hope this will break some of the inertia that we had on decision making and unlock much more investment.

Wes Ashworth (08:51)

Yeah, I agree completely. And I think it's a really helpful way to separate kind of the headline from the operational reality. And I appreciate you touching on the speed and urgency there. And I would agree. I mean, you look at it and you're like, it's a big problem, you know, there's a lot to solve. There's a lot of challenges. But I would say the same of like you almost you feel hopeful at the other side of it as well. And kind of like, all right, you know, you see like these pieces starting to align now. There's gonna be a lot of work to do, but it seems like we're in a better position to be able to handle this challenge and move forward. But you know.

Demand growth sounds simple until you ask where, when, and how fast it appears, and then that's a whole different other ball of wax.

Lisa Jacobson (09:22)

There's one other piece of this we haven't discussed, which I think is really important for this podcast, is like technology costs have changed. The technology menu has changed and the costs of many of these technologies have changed. Also, things that were not proven and well understood, say, you know, ten, fifteen years ago, are so today. So we have many more opportunities and choices to make in terms of the solution set and I think that hopefully makes, you know, for faster moving decisions and faster moving investments and that gives me optimism.

Wes Ashworth (09:55)

Agreed. Likewise. You touched on it briefly and we'll get there as well. I think the audience will want to hear. So that this data center story, you know, it's become almost shorthand for AI and electricity demand. But what is actually happening on the grid when data center load shows up in places like PJM, you know, Texas and the Southeast? Like what's actually happening?

Lisa Jacobson (10:14)

Well, I mean, you know, bigger picture. There is a strategic race underway with regards to AI technology and where we wanna have compute and you know, this is US technology. You know, we do not want to lose this race for many reasons. And okay, it requires energy, you know, and different energy resources than you know, more traditional data centers.

Now we're talking about training. We're talking about you know different types of compute needs which require very constant and you know pretty significant gigawatt scale electricity. So we also have demands on water and you know other infrastructure, and so when a large energy user comes onto the system, you know, there's processes in place to assess their needs interconnect them and you know kind of make whatever upgrades are needed to do that smoothly and that happens you know we get large load manufacturing or you know developments in communities that require large loads but these are incrementally larger as I said you know not hundreds of megawatts you know these are gigawatt scale in some cases so it's very large it needs you know significant power it needs it fast because the investment decisions of where to place a data center are happening quickly and in an ideal world you know they are going from you know kind of inception of a project to you know being up and running with you know anywhere from eight to eighteen months let's say right so that's fast and you know sometimes the regulatory processes are not equipped to move that fast however that is changing that's changing all over the country and you know with that comes really important protections for communities that, you know, aren't accustomed to large load coming at you know at this scale and at this pace.

Wes Ashworth (12:06)

It's pretty astonishing. You know, you see that growth even over the last handful of years or what have you, and you gotta just think it's only gonna continue to grow at that pace, but how much is involved in all those different pieces as you just laid out there too, and thinking about like the interconnection, transmission, load capacity, cost allocation, like there's so many different layers that have to come together and get right for this to happen. And I know so the Factbook shows this is our data center power demand has grown dramatically and I think everybody's aware of that, right? But with you know, much more capacity under construction or committed as well. What part of that growth maybe should excite us and any part of that should worry us?

Lisa Jacobson (12:42)

Well, I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't give you some facts, you know, in the 2026 Sustainable Energy in America Factbook, which is available for free, I should say. Go to the BCSE website to access it, www.bcse.org. But you know, one of the headline stats, when you look back ten years, data center demand in the United States quadrupled. And it was also interesting where that occurred, because it was fairly localized. You know, you mentioned PJM, which is basically largely the Mid Atlantic region. Think of Virginia, the Tech Corridor, or Texas, which to some may seem quite obvious, but to others might not. And then other places around the country that have basically put up the sign, I'm thinking of a state like Utah, we're open for business. We would like the data centers to come here. We would like to expand our you know energy system in our state and region. So, I mean, Texas and the Mid-Atlantic region are two places where we really, I would say are data center hotspots, but it we're not only talking about those states right now. I mean it's really proliferated in the last 12 months and yeah it's really exciting time because again it brings to the front of everybody's mind okay what are our energy needs right now and how are we doing and you know how can we make this moment work for communities and that's what it's all about in any circumstance.

Wes Ashworth (13:59)

Without a doubt. And what I'll do too, I'll link that Factbook in the show notes as well too. Anyone wants quick access, go to the show notes and you'll be to click there and find that. So to shift a little bit when policymakers hear load growth. Many immediately do jump to new generation as an idea. But how much of the answer is actually efficiency, demand flexibility, and using the existing grid better from your perspective, like how does that play out?

Lisa Jacobson (14:21)

Well, I think one of the things that we've seen and we've seen it in the data, if you if you look at What we've invested in and what has been brought online in the system in the first few months of 2026, over ninety percent of it was solar and storage. And you know, it was at gigawatt scales. I mean, this is not small amounts, this is significant amounts. You know, the solar sector and energy storage combined with solar is on track to have a record breaking year again in 2026, despite the policy uncertainties we've faced. But, you know, why is that? It's speed.

You know, they can deploy quickly. And if they're in a marketplace like ERCOT, which is the state of Texas, for example, they have really good policies that allow you to bring electricity generation online quickly. So that's just an example. A lot of people are looking to, you know, the Texas model is the Texas model, and we have to, you know, have models that seek and are able to you know meet the moment for different parts of the country. But you know, the fact that they can move so quickly and they've seen This generation come online and they've seen the investment in the state has been very positive for them. So there's lessons to be learned here. But supply side is just part of the story when it comes to speed because number one, you know, load reduction and load flexibility are key tools that we have to address, you know, evergreen, to address aging infrastructure, to address energy affordability, and to meet energy demand. So there's a lot.

Of conversation now about what the right market structures are to capture and aggregate load reduction in ways we haven't before and to really build that into the system. So when they're thinking about large loads, whether it be a manufacturer or a data center, like on the peak days when the system is really stressed, can they curtail? Are there things that they can do that would ease the burden on the rest of the system to help make it a situation where we can avoid some of the build-out that we might Otherwise have to do. And I think that when you look at the entire load stack, not just data centers, data centers, let's say, let's just say they're 10 or 15% of the load stack. You know, if we're looking at buildings, if we're looking at commercial and industrial customers, if we're looking at transportation, you know, there's a lot of ways here to optimize the energy system. And so you have to look at the supply side and the demand side and think about a holistic view and it hopefully an optimized view of the energy assets we have.

Wes Ashworth (16:46)

Yeah, that holistic view is so important and I think so critical to where we are today and kind of looking at all those. And, you know, it's an underated point in terms of like the cheapest megawatt is often the one you don't have to build, you know, especially when timelines are tight. But you know, reframes, I think, efficiency from a conversation message into an infrastructure strategy. And in this moment, I think speed and avoided costs matter enormously as you hit on. And I love that stat over 90% of that new generation being renewables. Just for everybody out there that still thinks, it's you know.

It's unreliable and it's slow and it's not cost effective, that is not the case. As we're seeing over and over again. So I love hearing those stats. Yeah.

Lisa Jacobson (17:21)

Yeah, I mean that's just in the US. I mean globally, you know, there were some really big stats that came globally about what was built in 2025. I mean the headline is that yes, renewables are dominating it on cost and the scale of deployment. And you know, it's that combination, right? It's the availability of the technology globally, it's the relative cost effectiveness of this and certainly in recent months, but we weren't even other than the war in Ukraine, which of course was ongoing.

In 2025, you know, the volatility and the supply challenges that we faced, you know, given the conflict and the war in the Middle East, you know, didn't even, you know, wasn't even in the cards then. So security and control of your energy resources is critical and is now shaping what will probably be the next five, ten years of energy decision making in other parts of the world for sure.

Wes Ashworth (18:13)

Yeah absolutely without a doubt. Again, so many compelling arguments to why renewables are having their moment, you know, and it's great to see. I'll stay on this just for a moment in this terms of just AI. And we've been thinking about this a lot is just you do you think the AI industry, you've got these tech giants and technology individuals, do they fully understand the energy system that they're now asking to serve it?

Lisa Jacobson (18:33)

I mean some are quite sophisticated in it, but their priorities and their decision tree might be different than another stakeholder looking at the same, you know, landscape. But I think many are not. I think this is not their industry and you know, they're in a different, you know, environment than they were five, ten years ago. You know, for both the scale of what they're trying to build, but also you know, just the public's awareness of their sector. You know, we've had data centers for a long time and they've been kind of sleepy. You know, it's a sleepy situation. But now with the scale of some of the very large announced data center projects, you know, again, tens of the gigawatts, you know, plus, that's, you know, awoken a lot of interest from the public and concern. And, you know, we're seeing that very much you can't like avoid a headline Anywhere right now without like some concern about data centers. I mean, I think that's a big part of organizations like Business Council for Sustainable Energy. We can talk with data center developers and data center companies about how they can manage their energy use, how they can manage their water use if they're not already aware. And then, you know, how can we help them communicate that at a community level? And I think that's the that's where we all are right now. We're trying to break down silos, be more effective, and be more transparent about really what the challenges and benefits are at a community level if a data center is you know considering that as a site.

Wes Ashworth (19:59)

Absolutely. And to overuse the cliche, communication is key. You know, how important that is right now. And these different groups that are suddenly, you know, just on the on the main stage, all eyes on them and having to understand these different components work together between, you know, the data center world and the renewable energy world and tech and everything else in between and just being able to translate that and bring those together.

So

Lisa Jacobson (20:22)

One thing that struck me, so last week, Business Council for Sustainable Energy hosted a round table convening with you know a pretty significant number of mid-size to small data center companies. And you know, we often think about it from the energy side, because we're largely the energy providers or the partners, utilities or you know, partners on these projects. But it was interesting to me. We started to talk about construction and how there are more modular data centers. So we're having this conversation about that. But what's embedded in that is even the data centers don't know what's coming down the pike in six to eight months. Their needs and their technologies may change. So when you then translate that back to like your energy needs, your water use, and like, okay, let's you know systematically think about a plan for you know, they may be building a data center today that when it's you know almost near completion is has a different purpose or is totally different. So it's hard for them as well, even if they're sophisticated and very you know responsible with their sustainability or energy use, you know, their landscape is moving and you know as they're building these data centers.

Wes Ashworth (21:30)

Yeah, that's a great point to make. And it's just again back to that speed. And they're used to it's kind of like normal in their world, you know, like it's in weeks and months maybe. We're often talking about years, and so it's the speed thing and coming together, but really fascinating. As we've talked about here, so we've talked a lot about sort of this demand growth, and that brings us straight to the issue every policymaker, utility, and household now cares about, which is cost. The next question is not just whether we can build enough power, it's You know, who pays for the system we're building? And so affordability has really moved to the center of the energy conversation. What are the biggest drivers behind rising electricity costs and where does the public conversation maybe oversimplify the problem?

Lisa Jacobson (22:08)

Well, I mean, I think it goes back to this, you know, kind of what's underpinning all the change in the sector right now. It is needing to invest for new infrastructure and new power generation, but it's also all these other things that have been going on and in some cases put off for many years. So when you look at what's dominating a household electricity bill, a lot of it is infrastructure costs like transmission and distribution costs.

And those are triggered by perhaps rebuilding after a serious event. It could be, you know, just aging infrastructure. It could be future proofing for resilience. So there's a lot of just regular operational expenses that are, you know, ticking up the bills that people see. Now we're talking about, you know, very large load with, you know, large infrastructure needs. And the big conversation is, how are we going to pay for that? And I think there's a general consensus, number one, that consumers and communities need to be protected from that. And that we need to isolate and maybe, you know, add a buffer here, you know, to make sure that in the long term, you know, because these assets, you know, they're 10, 15, 20, 20 plus year financed. So what if a data center is here for eight years but then isn't there? You know, like how are we going to ensure that for the long term, not just The short term that communities are protected and their bills won't go up, you know, astronomically because that community is bringing in load or that region. It was really interesting. We also, you know, participate in a lot of the utility state-level utility regulatory commission conferences, and we were at one in June, and a lot of lively conversation about you know, one states were open for business and another.

Other states, well, we're in your region and we feel that we're paying, you know, for some of the socialized costs of that infrastructure to you to fulfill your open for business sign, you know. It's very dynamic time, really interesting. But you know, kind of going back to something I said before, it's not that large loads don't, you know, get interconnected and utilities and regulators don't assess that. It's really the scale and the speed, and a little bit.

The unpredictability of it because we don't really know where this load is going to be. And I think that's another thing that regulators are doing right now is like, okay, where do we have these opportunistic spots where we have extra capacity? Like this would be a great place for a data center, you know. Or you know, where are those sweet spots? But it takes a little time for the regulated community and policymakers and communities to kind of catch up to where the data center industry is in terms of its planning. But I think we're getting there.

Wes Ashworth (24:53)

Yeah, agreed. I think so as well. And I appreciate kind of going through all those dynamics. You know, there's so much to it. Part of that has come up too, you know, you're hearing a lot more about hyperscalers and data centers sort of, you know, bring their own power. Like how much of that do you feel like they should, you know, be expected to bring their own power or pay for grid upgrades directly? Or is it maybe it's just too simple for how the system actually works?

Lisa Jacobson (25:14)

Think it's what's the goal you're you know, what's the problem you're solving for and then bring your own power might be a solution. You know, I think it really just depends where you are, what assets are available to you. And again, like not being overly prescriptive, but just the goal is that you know communities should be protected. They there shouldn't be more strain on the electricity system because of that investment or project. And then you kind of back that out and say, well what is you know, what is the preference?

Of a particular end user, large customer. So in some ways it's not dissimilar from the conversations that you would have in a setting where you're bringing on a large manufacturing plant, but in other ways it is very different.

Wes Ashworth (25:56)

I appreciate that thought process and that, you know, maybe it's not some cut and dry clear answer, but it really does depend on a lot of those dynamics and factors and what's going to make sense. But, you know, holding that the community should be protected as your kind of baseline, you know, as long as that's achieved and that's the goal. From the regulator side, you know, what should regulators be asking before approving, you know, new infrastructure that is driven by these very large load requests?

Lisa Jacobson (26:21)

Well, I think it's that decision tree. Okay, well, you know, where are we with our energy foundation? You know, are we able and equipped to bring in this data center at this time or this large customer at this time? And then really thinking about how it can be mutually beneficial. And maybe that load flexibility, you know, the curtailment, the peak shaving, like that could be very attractive. The fact that someone might bring their own power might be very attractive.

Because it might also, you know, again, be an asset for the grid. Maybe they're going to also invest in infrastructure that was needing investment, but just hadn't gotten in the capital stack yet. Like, and maybe that pushes it up. So there's really a lot of potential benefits here when you have, you know, a large investor in a system. You know, the question is how do you make all those puzzle pieces, you know, align?

Wes Ashworth (27:12)

Yeah. And from that perspective, just looking again at more of these puzzle pieces, how do you how do you see like how do we protect households and small businesses from, you know, paying for infrastructure that is built primarily to serve some of the largest companies in the world, any like solutions that seem to be working?

Lisa Jacobson (27:26)

Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, obviously coming from an efficiency and clean energy perspective, like BCSE's always been about all the above and this portfolio approach. So we're not saying pick this one, pick that one. We think that's the worst. But I think we should be keeping air quality and climate change in mind. That should be part of the review of what the options are. And so I think regulators could at least encourage that kind of transparency. And I would say the same for the demand side. It's not just picking a supply side answer. Like make sure you're looking at all the cost-effective options that can move in the timeline of that particular project and you know have that be shared with the public.

Wes Ashworth (28:08)

Great points there. And we hit on this earlier, but I think there is this tension between moving really fast and the speed that is being asked and doing cost allocation carefully. What is a risk maybe of moving too slowly and what's a risk of moving too fast?

Lisa Jacobson (28:23)

Well, I mean, I think one risk of moving too slowly is that these investments don't come to the United States. I mean, and I really can't quantify that at this point, but that's the risk. And I also just think there's, you know, economic development opportunities that states and localities, maybe not everyone, don't want to lose. And so that's the vibrancy of our economy and our innovative edge. You know, this is a big part of it. So I think people are aware of that.

As well, and you know, but again, it's kind of like that we needed the policy making and the communities to kind of catch up to the speed with which data centers were looking for sites. And I think we're getting there, you know. And I mean, also the risk is that you end up with moratoriums, which you know, there's one that was recently announced in New York, and we talked a little bit about that recently as a coalition, and it was very interesting. I mean, you know, I don't think anyone was seeking a moratorium on our side, but now that it's there.

You know it's kind of like this is a moment for that catch-up to happen, for the transparency to occur, and you know taking a pause for several months and hopefully being able to continue to do the due diligence on some projects while the pause is in place, you know, could be really beneficial to give the public confidence.

Wes Ashworth (29:35)

And I think you know the trade-off captures the moment, right? Delay has a cost, and I think one that we want to avoid, as you just said, it's pretty big. And so I think just getting that right and bringing those people together. But you know, we're here in the moment and it's happening. So

Wes Ashworth (29:47)

So we've talked about so we have you know rising demand, tighter grids, you know, sharper affordability debate. Now we need to get specific in my mind about the build-out itself, you know, which technologies can actually show up, on what timeline, for what role.

And think about like what actually gets built. So when people do say all of the above, you know, can sound a little bit like a slogan, but in practical terms, like what gets built first when speed, cost, reliability, and emissions all matter at once?

Lisa Jacobson (30:11)

Well, if you look at the last five, ten years, it's really been dominated by renewables and increasingly storage. You know, if you look at our one thing is electricity and then one is, you know, our energy system economy wide. But you know, just looking at the electricity sector and what's changed over the last ten years, we've seen, you know, expansion of renewables actually 2025 record-breaking year for renewable energy deployments, also record-breaking year for renewable energy.

Output Our consumption in the power sector increased. So everything increased a little bit, but renewables kind of were the chart breaking story there. And a lot of that was solar. So you know, really significant solar deployment. You know, thinking about nuclear. Nuclear has been steady state, you know, about 20% of our electricity mix, and that held the same. Obviously, there's a lot of attention right now about small modular nuclear reactors.

Some advanced nuclear, also just thinking about how to sustain the current nuclear fleet and you know how to incrementally expand capacity with existing assets. So there's a lot going on in the nuclear space, but that's really hasn't changed. Natural gas. Natural gas as a proportion of our electricity mix continues to increase, and it's really been paired with the reduction in coal generation. So even though coal had a bit of an up.

Uptick in 2025 because consumption rose, and also the Trump administration to ensure that reliability wouldn't suffer as we were experiencing load growth, they made a decision to allow aging coal-fired power plants in certain parts of the country continue to run, and that's still occurring. So trying to avoid any retirement of those assets or curtailment of those assets.

It doesn't really change the structural dynamics of the sector where we are moving towards cleaner electricity, no doubt about it. And it's because it's more economic, and this is even without subsidies. I mean, you we have data in the factbook that looks at what it would cost to build any particular technology power generation asset and to achieve the same output across the board, so it's normalized. And you know, solar and storage.

Many renewable technologies, I mean, they are way down on the cost curve. Combined cycle natural gas, also very, very economic. So we have a lot of low-cost resources, and when paired together, we can have very optimal outcome in terms of deliverability and price. And then you bring in, you know, the demand side to the conversation, which is even more you know cost competitive. You know, so there's a lot of really good news here.

And I think the key is to make sure that policymakers and communities are aware that the demand side can meet a lot of goals, especially in the near term. And, you know, as one regulator said to me recently, you know, if you care about affordability and you care about consumers' bills, the only thing we can do for them right now is to help them with energy efficiency, conventional energy efficiency. That's the only way we can lower their bills.

You know, we can't really control so many other things that are dictating their bills. So that's really important. And you know, at a time where energy efficiency is just not getting the attention it needs. So, you know, there's all the optimization and load flexibility technologies, you know, just basic energy efficiency in a home or a building can take us a long way. And we need to make sure we're maintaining those investments and helping consumers make those investments.

Wes Ashworth (33:43)

Yeah, all great points. And again back to that importance of it's all important. You know, we gotta work on every side of it and the efficiency part and what you're doing in your own household. A big piece of that as well, too. So definitely excited to see that get some more attention as well. And I think it's gonna be a out of necessity, if nothing else, you know, as we go forward as well. You mentioned, you know, some of those growth areas and I know utility scale storage had just another record year. It continues to do extremely well and makes a lot of sense, but You know, what has changed maybe about storage's role on the grid and what do people still maybe misunderstand about what batteries can and cannot do?

Lisa Jacobson (34:18)

Well, I mean they can Do a lot. And I think that's the story. And they're being deployed. You know, again, I think one of the stats from Texas was eleven gigawatts of storage last year. I mean, just this is big. So even with the technologies that we have now, and battery prices are going down. They're continuing to decrease in price, but there's new technologies, new chemistries that are being explored, that's very important. And then there's a big Focus on long-duration energy storage. So that is what the grid is seeking. And we have technologies to do that. It is happening in different parts of the country, but it's not as well known. And also it's very dynamic and changing very quickly. So there is a need for longer-term storage, and the market is responding, but we need to continue to talk about that and experiment.

With those technologies.

Wes Ashworth (35:11)

Yeah, I agree completely. It's amazing to even watch the investment space and see how much is happening in storage and technologies and all of that, the time and attention that's going into that. And I agree. You know, we talked a bit about, you know, efficiency, right? And I think that's a big point that people should be thinking about.

What do you see, like some practical things that maybe should happen to help individuals see that and be able to play a bigger part in this? Are there any things that you're seeing from your side in terms of what's coming or what people should be thinking about?

Lisa Jacobson (35:40)

Well, I mean on the household level, but I guess we could say this is also for, you know, C&I customers as well, small businesses. You know, just being tapped into the programs, either utility programs or private sector programs that help you respond to market signals to lower your energy use. This will lower your bills, it will help support the energy system as a whole, and you know, avoid potentially some significant investments that might be needed either a disaster you know averted you know grid strain that did not tax a system or you know and therefore we're not having to pay for that or just you know longer term you know if it's really done at scale and is very systematic then we may be avoiding some bigger investments that we would have to make in the system. So that is happening. You know Texas again another really exciting place to look and there you know the private sector can play a big role in going out to customers and giving them the controls. But I mean, we have millions and millions of smart meters deployed and they're not fully utilised. So how do we, you know, take advantage of, you know, the investments we've already made and, you know, make those smart meters deliver for us. Another area With virtual power plants or different forms of microgrids, you know, we really Are tapping into buildings, we're tapping into transportation infrastructure. So that is like the vision in the future. It's just how do all these different both energy sources and energy users optimize with and we can do that with these technologies. We did not have the ability to do that 10, 15 years ago. It was really in its infancy. And now, you know, we have a lot more experience with it and with this faster compute, you know.

There's lot more we can do. I mean I went to CERAWeek this year, which is an energy conference in Houston, Texas, every March. And I mean it's just amazing to hear the presentations working with utilities, working outside the utility sector of these software companies and what they're able to accomplish with the assets we have today, like just better use of what we have.

Wes Ashworth (37:48)

You're seeing those technologies kind of like pop up almost, it seems like daily and weekly now and can continue to get better and improve. And some of those conversations that are starting to happen of that interconnection of, you know, tons and tons of homes and businesses and things like that, and all playing a part and being connected with this technology. So really exciting to see where that goes and what that future will look like. We started to touch on this and in kind of like from the business side of the equation. So corporate clean energy procurement hit another record, you know, and tech companies are now signing deals for nuclear and hydro and geothermal and other firm resources. Is corporate demand starting to reshape the clean energy market faster than policy does?

Lisa Jacobson (38:24)

Well, interestingly, you know, that's the way it kind of had been, you know, going back ten, fifteen years ago. If you look at the pledges that corporates have made for renewable energy, for energy efficiency, for clean fleets, you know, on now looking at electricity, renewable electricity, you could put their demand curve next to what was being built, and it was roughly half represented half of what was being built, not in every one year.

But let's just say we had 20 gigawatts of growth of renewables in a given year. You could track say 10 gigawatts worth of demand coming from the corporate sector. So it didn't always happen in the same year, but it's that forward demand signal. And that's still there for sure. And it's also diversifying, as you said. It's different resources. It's not only wind and solar, you know, that's going in other places, and I think that's very healthy. However, there's been other things in addition to policy change.

You know there's a whole revision right now on corporate accounting for greenhouse gas emissions and it's happening in a number of different venues and that is having an impact on the ability of corporates to have clarity on what really they can have confidence in terms of what they invest in to achieve their sustainability targets. So if they have a renewable energy procurement target they need to know okay if I'm investing in this geothermal plant like this is going to help me count for that.

To getting all the benefits, the 24-7 power and you know other things I might get from geothermal. So that's kind of where we are now and that is having an impact on the market. And it's a worrisome BCSE Business Council for Sustainable Energy. We're very involved in that with our members, trying to, you know, work to get the right frameworks in place and also just getting that clarity in the marketplace.

Wes Ashworth (40:10)

Yeah, clarity is so important. Again, as we you talked about again for those businesses and being able to continue to push that forward. As we talked about too, like the market is moving quickly, demand rising, but policy has been anything but stable, you know. And the factbook makes it clear, I think we all know that 2025 is a year of major policy turbulence and that uncertainty changes what companies can finance, build, and commit to. So with that, you know.

2025 Major policy disruption from tariffs to changes in tax credits. What did that uncertainty do to real companies trying to build real projects from your perspective?

Lisa Jacobson (40:42)

I think it's interesting like whenever you're about to have a change and even though we had you know not the longest runway and transition period we did have we did have one which largely ended for a number of the renewable energy tax credits that were impacted in particular for solar and wind happened you know that transition deadline largely was a big milestone was july fourth of 2026. So I mean I from what I understand it's been extremely busy. People are at capacity trying to get the projects through That were in the pipeline prior to July 4th, get them moving, get them qualifying through safe harbor, either by construction or significant investments made in the project, so they would be able to use the existing rules up until that point. And then a lot of you know thinking and creativity about how they can meet the new rules. I mean, no one's stepping back here, no one's retreating. If anything, they're pushing to see how they can overcome the near-term change.

And come out on the other side stronger.

Wes Ashworth (41:43)

Yeah, that was something I saw across the board and talking to many leaders while that was happening is just no one was pulling back. They were all just leaning in, focused on solutions and just being creative and making it work. From your perspective, like which technologies maybe came out of the recent policy changes in a stronger position that many people expected and which ones maybe now do face the hardest road?

Lisa Jacobson (42:04)

Well, I think nuclear has come out stronger. And even just in the last week or two, Congress has been looking at a number of really important bills that would support, you know, regulatory reform for nuclear energy and just a whole host of you know other supportive initiatives. And they also got the long term tax credit retained, which is important. And it wasn't just for nuclear, it's for hydro, it's for biomass, waste to energy, geothermal, energy storage. So I would say energy storage also has done Quite well, and they we also have in place a long-term advanced manufacturing tax credit, which can help many technologies, including storage, but others too. So I think it's in some ways a little early to tell because a lot of the focus of the last 12 months has been like moving forward massive amounts of projects under the old rules, legacy projects. And now we're gonna see what happens going forward. I also think it's really interesting. I don't have the answer, you know, a big headline from the fact book was you could see that when the electric vehicle tax credit for automobiles that you know for families we're not talking about fleet vehicles here that tax credit ended in September end of September 2025 you saw a race to people to buy and then you saw a big you know cliff However, you know, there's a lot going on in electric vehicle space, and whether it be the infrastructure investments continuing or, you know, just again, more models being offered, costs coming down in the US, but also globally. I mean, electric vehicles, I mean, don't write that story yet. I'm very curious to see what 2026 brings for electric vehicles.

Wes Ashworth (43:38)

Yeah, very much the same.

And I think, you know, it's a helpful way to look at it too. Is policy change rarely hits the whole sector evenly, it reshuffles the competitive landscape. And as you said, I think we're gonna see that, you know, going forward a little bit later. Yeah, I agree. You know, I think some of these like can't ever count these things out. Just some of these smartest, most resilient, just creative people, you know, lead companies in this space. And they're already just figuring things out and trying to figure out how to win, how do we move forward? There's no stop, you know, there's no hesitation there. So again, love all that. So we're getting a little closer to time. I want to hit on a couple more things. So we've covered the problem, the build out, the affordability challenge, and the policy turbulence. I want to close by just looking forward a little bit and what leaders should do now, why this moment can still be one of opportunity. So if you could give governors, utility regulators, federal policymakers one shared assignment for the next two years, what would that be?

Lisa Jacobson (44:28)

I would you know, collaborate with communities and the private sector for economic development, with the foundation of reliable, affordable, and clean energy. I mean I think, you know, you started it off like we went from decarbonization to load growth, and that is true, but you know, sustainability is evergreen. That's like just makes good sense for community planning. So if I were talking to a new governor, you know, there's gonna be 36 new governors in 2027. I would say let's talk about your economic development goals and how we can underpin that with clean and efficient energy resources. And because we have so many technologies to choose from, and many of them are very cost-effective, as long as they provide that market signal, the private sector will come.

Wes Ashworth (45:15)

Absolutely. I love that so much. You know, clear call to action as well. And I think, as we've said, like those next two years matter so much because the load is not waiting for the perfect policy alignment. And I think, you know, it's a really practical roadmap to look at as well. So last question when you look at the next decade, you know, go out a little bit further, what gives you the most confidence that the US can meet this rising demand without losing sight of affordability, reliability, and decarbonization, sustainability as we mentioned?

What gives you that confidence?

Lisa Jacobson (45:41)

I think the technology cost reductions in many sectors give me that confidence. You know, and also looking around at the rest of the world. I mean we are having our own moment and then they'll have their moments, but they're not stopping on clean energy. That's what the choice is, and for so many different reasons. In some cases it's a leapfrogging, in other cases it's, you know, kind of the best in class technology. Why wouldn't I select this, right? And you know, they don't necessarily have you know a history of the infrastructure we do. So, you know, we're blessed with so many abundant resources and this huge geographic area in the United States. But sometimes that can make it really hard to do long term and you know complex planning across jurisdictions. So if it's smaller, you know, jurisdiction, maybe it's easier in some cases to cut through the red tape and get things moving. But anyway, I'm optimistic. I think this moment combined with the technologies we have is gonna suit us well. I worry about our mid and long term climate change goals because I do think they are being hampered, but I also think the direction of travel is clear. No, we're not going back. And we don't have to because we have affordable low and zero carbon technologies on the ready and we have a private sector that knows how to deploy them. So that gives me confidence.

Wes Ashworth (46:59)

And just really a hopeful place to land because we know those challenges are real, but so is the evidence, as you just pointed out, that the market keeps building. And powerful reminder, this story's not of scarcity alone. It's a story of innovation, investment, execution. And again, so hopeful what's to come and I appreciate you coming on. But Lisa, thank you so much for coming back to Green Giants and for helping us understand this next phase of the energy system.

For everyone listening out there, this conversation is a reminder that the next phase of the energy transition will not be defined by slogans. It'll be defined by what we can build, you know, how fast we can connect it, how fairly we can allocate the costs, and whether we can meet the rising demand while still moving towards a cleaner, more reliable, more affordable system. Thank you for listening to Green Giants Titans of Renewable Energy. If this episode helped you understand where the energy market is heading, please subscribe, leave a rating, share it with someone working in the future of power, infrastructure, AI, or climate.

And check those show notes for some important links. With that, we will see you next time.