Revisiting Legend: Unicorns, Darkness and 80's Vibes

Did you meet Tom Cruise as a young forest lad, clad in a gold sequince dress?

Could you save the universe from eternal darkness?

If you learned the foundational lesson that unicorns should NEVER be touched early in life, you might be a Xennial, and a fan of the cult classic 1985 movie, Legend. And we are too.

Join us with special return guest Jamila as we revisit Legend, including its quintessential 80s vibe, stunning makeup effects, and the captivating presence of unicorns. Together, we reminisce about the early film careers of Tom Cruise, Mia Sara, and Tim Curry, and compare the various versions of the film.

Plus - don't miss our hot takes on Tim Curry's Hot Satan portrayal. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Did you know Tom Cruise is Jack the dreamy boy in the woods, long before you knew him as Maverick in Top Gun? Did you ever wish you could also touch a unicorn, even though it would totally mess up the entire balance of the universe? If you remember getting confusing tingles in your special areas from above, satan, you might be a city, all know. And you might remember the 1985 movie Legend, and we are on a roll this morning. Already I knew y'all would love that little bit. Okay, hi everyone, I'm Dani and I'm Katie and you're listening to Generation Inbetween, a Zennial podcast where we revisit remember, we've been doing a lot of re-watching and sometimes re-learn all kinds of things from being an 80s kid and a 90s teen, young adult. And, yes, today we are discussing the dark fantasy cult classic movie Legend. But first we have a special return guest. Our first return guest. Yeah, janela's teen In person, in person. First return guest. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, or have we had carlos on twice? No, he stayed for a dawson's creek, but it was the same day, right, correct? He'll be back. But yes, oh, he's gonna be mad that you're here and we didn't tell him, oops, why he wanted to meet her, I'm sure, oh, oh, okay, I'll text him later. We'll text him later, cool, okay. Well, yeah, him later, cool, okay.

Speaker 1 1:22

Well, yeah, jameela's here in person. She is actually here on vacay. I am, yes, on one of the coldest weeks ever in Florida Suck it, virginia, I know. So she has one of her lovely children here with her and they are having a good time, and I asked her daughter if she was going to be okay with us discussing this and she's like I might make a face there's so many faces, but it's okay. So if you need to leave, that's fine. She also has some great questions for us, so we're going to use those later. So don't leave. If y'all listen to our Labyrinth episode, you will remember my friend Jamila, who is a Labyrinth super fan. But for those who may be new here, I'm going to read her bio for you again, just to give you a little refresh or a brand new info, and I'm going to stare at her the whole time Do it.

Speaker 1 2:09

She loves that. I know I'm her favorite. All right, jamila is the owner of. Mama Loves Herbs. Herbs, it's herbs, it's herbs. I know what I'm purpose. Oh, chill, start over. I'm going to say it again. Oh, it's fine, don't heal us on our bottle of herbs. A company that encourages everyone to heal through sound, good vibes, herbal remedies, self-care and loving community. She is an herbalist, sound healer, doula, writer, mother of five and wife of one. She is mostly lawful, good, but sometimes chaotic evil Mostly chaotic evil, yeah. And as an 80s baby, she has a deep love of Jim Henson and most of the puppet movies, which probably accounts for the chaotic evil. Now, that line was specific for our Labyrinth episode, but I feel like it's relevant. Yeah, it's super relevant. I think so too. Yeah, yes, well, I was just going to say and we'll get to it but yeah, aren't there puppets in this movie? There's, yeah, puppetry, puppetry, okay, like intense special effects and like makeup. Yeah, okay, yeah, not, but not puppet, it was mostly makeup. Yeah, it's a lot of makeup.

Speaker 2 3:17

There's a lot of people yeah, um, but like not. It is yeah, not labyrinth level um puppetry no, got it.

Speaker 1 3:25

Yeah, no, no, okay so, and unicorns and the unicorns. I tell you I can't even. We'll get there, we'll get there, we'll get there. I will relax when I forgot about the slow-mo unicorns listen, it's very it's.

Speaker 2 3:37

That's that movie is, and I'm just gonna say this overall this movie is super 80s. I know for real. Um, on so many different levels and like watching it again in my adulthood. I've done three to four rewatches of this movie and it hits differently every time.

Speaker 1 3:54

I can totally see that, and also, watching it with your child is a different experience, because I did the same thing. Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there, but before we get going, uh, because we're gonna have a lot of thoughts and a lot of feelings and a lot of dissection to do. Katie, why don't you excuse me? Why don't you read us the movie summary? Are you ready? Okay, all right. Oh boy, I didn't read this ahead of time. Oh great, even better, all right. Official summary A pure-hearted forest dweller named Jack, played by Tom Cruise, must battle the evil Lord of Darkness, played by Tim Curry, to prevent him from plunging the world into eternal night by destroying the last unicorn, all while trying to save the beautiful Princess Lily, mia Sara, from the clutches of darkness. Set in a mystical forest filled with fairies, goblins and unicorns, jack embarks on a quest to restore balance between light and evil. I have a comment.

Speaker 2 4:56

How dare they put?

Speaker 1 4:57

Tim Curry and plunging in the same sentence.

Speaker 2 4:58

How dare you? From the beginning they started off. They're just there. They knew what they were doing.

Speaker 1 5:03

They knew beginning. They started off. They're just there. They knew what they were. They knew anyway. Okay, katie, I have to say, like you, reading that summary and your beautiful princess voice is amazing. It's so good. I went extra. I like doubled down. I know I doubled really good. Can I tell y'all a funny fact? I, if I ever had a daughter, I wanted to name her lily and it was because of this movie. Wow, oh wow. You know what's weird? When I was watching it and I saw that her name was Lily, I was like I wonder if that's why a lot of people my age have daughters named Lily. Well, I know a lot. Did you see the?

Speaker 2 5:34

lilies in the movie. Yeah, yeah, when they. Yeah, I had comments about that too and yeah, get to there anyway there.

Speaker 1 5:41

So, before we get going on our feelings and thoughts although we've already given y'all some, that's just so many Walk alone. Yeah, I know we have so many. I got some little facts to pull up just to share, and I know Jamila said she had some, too Some, but they're topical, so Okay, so we'll just basic, bare bones stuff, which is funny because I was like, oh my God, I've got to get this research done. I'm like, oh, it's not that much, it's not that much. And then, of course, you sit down this movie.

Speaker 2 6:10

Ok, let's talk about that for just a second. Yeah, as it relates to, there was. So what I learned because I'd never bothered to look it up? Right, all of my, my interaction with legend has to do with kink or just like nostalgia. Yeah, right, right, right. So like I was reading up on it and I was like holy crap, this movie is not like they had some tea on this, like what was going on yeah, yeah, yeah, and you don't hear about it a lot.

Speaker 1 6:40

I feel like there's some 80s movies out there that you hear a lot of stuff about yeah.

Speaker 2 6:45

I a lot, I feel like there's some 80s movies out there that you hear a lot of stuff about, I feel like Especially for a movie with Tom Cruise. I know he's got a spicy movie history, so for this to have not made it into the zeitgeist is weird, I know, I agree.

Analyzing Multiple Versions of Cult Classic

Speaker 1 6:58

Since we're talking about Tom Cruise, we'll start with the cast, and I only have three. I mean, there's really only three main peeps in the cast and they're all names we know from the 80s. So Tom Cruise has been a bajillion movies, so I just listed some of the other 80s movies that he was in for our younger audience out there who may not like know. All right, yeah, y'all are gonna know all these. Yeah, so he was in the Outsiders before this. I thought he was in the Outsiders after this movie, but he was in Outsiders 83. His first movie yeah, I don't know why I got those confused but Outsiders was 83. Risky Business was 83 as well. Oh yeah, all the right moves, also 1983. He's busy. I, he's a heart. He was a heart grab, he was. These were really big for that he and he looked like the boy next door and you know. So, yeah, top six. So right after legend he did top gun, um. So then he was did color of money 86. Cocktail, 88 I love that movie, I do too. Um, young guns was 88 and then, born on the 4th of july, was 89 and that was just his movies in the 80s. Dang, and he started in 83.

Speaker 1 8:07

So, and he was actually in one before that, in 82, called Endless Love or something like that, but it wasn't one I knew, so I just left it off like never mind. But then you had Mia Sarah, who we know from Ferris Bueller's Day Off, yeah, yeah, which was, and that's it. Well, the rest of her stuff was movies, but they were like TV movies or miniseries, so you may have seen her face a lot, but that was kind of, was kind of. And then, of course, we have our beloved Tim Curry. Okay, so obviously he was in Rocky Horror Picture Show in 75. But I always think that's an 80s movie and I don't maybe because I saw it in the 80s. That aesthetic is very 80s, yeah, so, but that was 75.

Speaker 1 8:53

And he was in Annie in 82, which I forgot. He was in Annie, he was Rooster. Yeah, I hate, I hate Annie. So sorry, can we do an episode? I'm not coming. We can talk about annie, we can talk about the deep trauma of annie. Oh, yeah, there's so much. I hate it much, I hate it. Um, and include 1985. I love the rest of the stuff he was in was in like the 90s. So, okay, um, and then it was directed by ridley scott. I saw that hey wait, wait, I have.

Speaker 2 9:17

I have all of our for all of our um star trek people out there. Oh, here you go. I don anything Doctor from and I'm so sad because his name is escaping me and it'll come to me later. The guy who played the Doctor in Voyager was also in this movie who did he play? I don't know, oh well, I saw him in the casting list, but it wouldn't tell me who he was.

Speaker 1 9:37

That's so funny.

Speaker 2 9:37

Yeah, let us know, like a goblin or something. Yeah, I guess he was like. I mean, if you, if you, you were a goblin, if you weren't. Well, true, tim Curry.

Speaker 1 9:48

Or that lady in the house. Do y'all know we're going to talk about that lady in the house? Yeah, del, or whatever. No, I just watched her finish this morning, oh yeah, yesterday and today, yeah, and I have notes About the little honey, honey, chris. Oh, we'll talk about him. Wasn't he an actor? I mean, obviously he's a.

Speaker 2 10:10

German actor. Yeah, and back to just the things I know. And he, after he did this movie, he just went back to doing mostly German language movies.

Speaker 1 10:21

Ok, yeah, which is interesting because a piece of trivia I found about him, they said his accent was too heavy to do an american movie. So, um, his voice is dubbed and he was 18 when he played gum. Yeah, he looks so little. He looks, isn't that crazy, looks like a baby, I mean. They also had him running around, but it was dubbed by the lady, yeah, who played the goblin. The goblin. There's a lady that played the Lord of Darkness. I have some stuff about her too. We'll get there. The fact that I.

Speaker 2 10:48

I know that was really exciting A little. I know I was like she was played by a woman.

Speaker 1 10:53

I know that's so cool. I didn't think that either. She's villainous as hell, oh my gosh. So here's the thing, and you can jump in Jamila, because you probably know some of this when you started your research too, finding out all these weird little things. So there's like multiple versions of this movie. So there's the OG 94-minute European release, then we have an 89-minute American release, then there's a 94-minute release that they had for network TV yes, which is weird, that it's longer than the theatrical version yeah, whatever. And then they had a director's cut, which was 113 minutes. I've seen the director's cut. I have not. I have it, I have not. Well, you'll have to tell us what is different.

Speaker 2 11:37

Okay, let me tell you what I remember. Okay, because I watched the director's cut. I actually said to Evangeline, who's my daughter?

Speaker 1 11:44

Why didn't? I did? Sorry, I didn't say your name. Oh, I'm sure, if you wanted me to, but your mom did, so now I'll say it. We say our kids names. Yeah, I know, but I mean, I don't want, you didn't want to Thank you for respecting it and letting me make that choice.

Speaker 2 12:05

Yeah, I think I appreciate y'all. I watched it. Uh, how was my oldest 17? I watched it with with my mom and we'll talk about like all my rewatches, but I watched it with my mom when I was no, that's not true. I watched it in my 20s and the one thing that I remember very distinctly is they have this like 15 minutes of Mia Sarah just running through the the woods and singing, singing yes, singing, not singing, like she's like la, la, la, oh my God. That's the opening sequence. It's actually her. Okay, I love that. Mincing that's fun. I can only use the word mincing. It's her mincing around in the woods. That's appropriate and like singing.

Speaker 1 12:47

I wish they would have kept that. No, oh, it's bad. Well, 15 minutes seems like that's too long. Oh, it's too like yeah that's the thing is.

Speaker 2 12:54

It is that okay? And for me, when I I watched it, it felt like they were really impressed, and this is one of the things that comes up in the, the reading that I did. They were really impressed, and this is one of the things that comes up in the, the reading that I did they were really impressed with like the scenery. Yeah, a lot of scene shot, yeah, and that's all that was. It wasn't building character, it wasn't you understanding her in making it make sense, because and we'll get into this in a minute like she doesn't make sense, oh no, in like her character does it not, doesn't make sense, and it just doubled down on yeah, because I'm like oh, she's supposed to be this princess, like from her tower, her ivory tower, and yet she's spending a lot of time just mincing in the woods yes, oh, we need shirts that say that.

Speaker 1 13:40

Yeah, I wish I was mincing in the woods. I'd rather, I'd rather be mincing in the woods okay. So speaking of cuts, uh, tom cruise did not like the american cut of the movie, and so he tells everybody to watch the director's cut.

Speaker 2 13:55

So just, fyi, I'm gonna go back and and watch it. Yeah, let us know when I get home, because I I own it.

Speaker 1 14:01

Um is it on dvd or something it?

Speaker 2 14:03

on.

Speaker 1 14:03

DVD.

Speaker 2 14:03

Okay, so first first I have to figure out how I'm going to watch a DVD.

Speaker 1 14:06

I know I was like you still have a DVD. Yeah, yeah, Nice.

Speaker 2 14:08

Somewhere in my house.

Speaker 1 14:10

I need to go get one at Goodwill or something, because I would like a VCR as well, but I know I don't think. Yeah, no, it's not going to work. We just bought it for the case the Little Mermaid case Episode coming.

Speaker 2 14:26

Yes.

Evolution of Legend

Speaker 1 14:26

Anyway. So also this script went through 15 rewrites and they had one guy that did them all.

Speaker 2 14:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1 14:33

His name was I don't know how to say his last. How do you say his last name, william Hortzberg? Okay, I did it right, that would be my guess. That's my pronoun, hortzberg. All right, yeah, I did it all on the side. Pause. This final version that we watched had 15 rewrites to get to that. No, they were all the same person.

Speaker 2 14:58

Yeah, evolution of like. Yeah, yeah, this is a good time to do that. Um, let's talk about the evolution of, uh, legend. So legend was actually supposed to be a dark adult. Yeah, it was not supposed to be for kids.

Speaker 2 15:11

I could see that very much, yeah, very much, and that was one of my complaints on the rewatch of legend is that I, so I watched it this time from more of a storytelling perspective, whereas before, when I watched it, I was like firmly in my nostalgic feels. I was like, but I watched it from a storytelling perspective this time and that movie was at war with itself the entire time, because darkness, yeah, as a character, is not a character for children's films. I am going to tell you that I am a person who likes darker themes for children because I think they can handle it, and we talked about this in the print. But they spent the entire movie like trying to pull back from this character, yeah, while also making him the main villain, right, but the? Yeah, so it was started, that's how it started. And then they didn't feel like they could sell it as a as an adult, right, so it went through a series of like hack jobs with watching the movie.

Speaker 2 16:27

Was that the elves and the fairies. They reference them, but there's no actual lore around them, right? If you notice, there's no difference. There's no even personality, wise, right.

Speaker 1 16:39

Yeah, that was my thing. What's up for the one creepy girl, the creepy, oh the fairy, oh the sprite. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he creeped Cooper out. He's like he is scary.

Speaker 2 16:49

Well, because, it's the violation of it all. I know, I know, yeah, so anyway, and I'm trying not to like, I know we're not, that's why there were so many rew, many voices, yeah, to make this movie able to sell.

Speaker 1 17:03

And then it went through a screening and they did not do well, so then they rewrote it again. Yeah, I feel like with I guess I don't understand the industry. Maybe wouldn't you just have another writer. Well, I guess I do, because I helped someone who they made a film about her life and it had four or five rewrites and they were all different people because they didn't like the version someone had. There was one version it was about her real life where they had her like sleeping with a journalist and she was like uh, oh, hell, no, because it didn't even happen. Oh, the like screenwriter just wrote it up. And they were like you know what this needs, you sleeping with someone and she was like sorry, like get your life together. Yeah, sorry that you're sad, you're gonna make this happen. She was like mortified. So like I guess I'm saying like, if the first 14 right, work it out, buddy, I are you still someone who doesn't have, I know, a fantasy? Maybe they were just in so deep.

Speaker 2 17:57

They just had the probably yeah, redley got was like here's this book. Oh yeah, that's right, I agree. Uh-huh was like here's this book.

Speaker 1 18:08

Oh yeah, that's right, I've read uh-huh um, celtic fairies write a, write a movie, oh my goodness. And it has nothing to do with what the movie is about. No, no, no, he was now welcome to fairy. Well, so, speaking of deleted scenes, there's one infamous scene no, can we?

Speaker 2 18:19

can we put a pin in this? Yeah, well, I actually want to come. I want to come back to that. Hold it. Okay, we'll hold it because we will talk about it. Yes, and I want to talk about it in a really all right bigger way so, before we move on to get our thoughts, I have a.

Speaker 1 18:31

I found this website that was like um, stage makeup, people and special effects, and they gave so many interesting details on the makeup for this movie. Oh my gosh, yeah, okay, poor tim curry. First of all, guys, y'all okay. When they first started putting the lord of darkness makeup on, it took eight hours, so after they got the hang of it, it only took five and a half hours. Well, every time they filmed that poor man, five and a half hours, five. And then you have to go perform. Right, that's not even. You haven't even done anything and it's not any like let's give more perspective here also.

Speaker 2 19:04

You think this is the 80s, so that's not even you haven't even done anything and it's not any like. Let's give more perspective here also. You think this is the 80s, so it's not like he had a phone, no, so like you're just sitting there, him, which sounds very first world, but like yeah, phone, like maybe he was watching tv, but like yeah, like that just sounds horrible.

Speaker 1 19:19

that's awful. Okay, so here's some details. So he had horns that were made of very lightweight fiberglass and they were over three feet long each and they were like hooked to his back and they like came around, but they were very lightweight. The first ones they had were not, and so they changed it because they were just too heavy. Yeah, he also wore 18-inch stilts and like had to learn how to walk on stilts because of the hooves yeah Right, wow, stilts. And like had to learn how to walk on stilts because of the the hooves. Yeah right, wow. So it said, with curry's height of five nine, the three feet, if he was so little, I know he's little, right, he's five nine. Well, wait in in clue, you get that oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 19:56

Anyway, then he had three feet horns in the 18 inch stilts. He stood like over 10 feet tall. Oh my god, wild, yes, because it looks huge. So it was kind of the real eye.

Speaker 2 20:12

Daddy, here we go all right, sorry, all right, and there's a scene I'm going to reference in when we get to that. Oh yeah, there was the. There was a moment I had last night where I was like this is it.

Speaker 1 20:23

That's, that's where we all break. So at one point when he was doing his makeup, he had to do this process at the end of the day where he had to soak in a bath to get all the crap off, and it took forever, and so he probably got paid like shit for this, oh I know. And at one point he got really too impatient and claustrophobic. He just pulled the makeup off without doing like the bath process, and it tore his skin off. Yeah, oh, I knew that was coming. Oh, it gets, it gets. But listen, the director, there's more, there's more.

Speaker 1 20:54

The director felt bad for him, as he should. He was like horrified, and so he tried to find like an easier way to like make up for his character, and he didn't want Curry to put more makeup on his torn skin, so he shot around him for a week. So you know the opening scenes where you don't see him much. You just hear him. Yeah, that's why they did his day glow fingernail. Yeah, I love. Oh, I know that's why they did that. So you can't see him because they we could have a break. That was nice Italian perspective. It works, it was great. Yeah, yeah, you don't say all that was nice later, it was darkness.

Speaker 2 21:26

Yeah, like they made that yeah.

Speaker 1 21:28

Yeah, and then I'll have a couple more things which we already talked about. Meg Mucklebones was the name of that swamp witch. Yes, I did not even know that was her name. That's so good. That one scared Tori. She was like what, like when she popped out, it was great she has that like, like that movement. I know so creepy Good movement. Yeah, so the inspiration for her makeup she was designed to look like an extreme version of the witch from Snow White.

Speaker 2 21:59

She does look like the witch from Snow White.

Speaker 1 22:06

And as soon as I read that and they said Blix, who was the goblin, lord Darkness' henchman, their face, I know she'd stuck her head. I just read it. Their face was designed after Keith Richards and now you can't see it like his bone structure Because he has very distinct bone structure. But like who would be? Like you know what, let's make this goblin. I would like keith, I absolutely would.

Speaker 2 22:27

I'd be like bones and jawline, but you have to also think about the fact that, like creative people who are they're, they're literally making these things out of yeah, yeah, right. So I'm sure you're walking around your everyday life, yeah, looking for inspiration and you're like wait a minute.

Speaker 1 22:44

Yeah, sir you have a very distinct. Let me pull up in it. Yeah, that was the end of my facts, so now we'll dig into our thought. Okay, apologies, young child, so I, she's not really that young.

Speaker 2 22:54

I'm gonna say that I am definitely a legend super fan and I believe like as I was watching it, I was like, oh my god, legend is like imprinted on my personality. Oh my god, uh, same thing between darkness and jared. I was like, oh, I understand myself so much better now, the brooding, the drama, that like there's so much there. But also I had that, and we talked about this in the Labyrinth episode. I had that. I was explaining to my daughter this morning that like part of that could be because there was a lack of like black characters for me to imprint on. Yeah, and so who did I pick? Like the non-white characters? Sure, and that's what I saw in myself and that's kind of what I picked up on. I didn't pick up on Mia, sarah, I didn't pick up on like Lily or Sarah, or I was like, what about this dude?

Speaker 1 23:56

I mean, I was like that too, but for a different reason.

Speaker 2 24:00

Inigo Montoya. Like let's talk about Right, exactly. Oh boy, yeah, the rewatch was. The rewatch was hard, though, yeah, because I did have to like confront my yeah. I was like, oh babe, yeah, what were you thinking? Where were you? Um, and I'm gonna read something that that I found okay. Oh, I can't wait. Really like sums it up for me, because I was like struggling last night after I watched it and this made me feel better.

Speaker 2 24:28

Okay, style over substance is the oh good. Considering the somewhat light source material, given, it makes sense that there wasn't really much for him to work with the screenwriter. He had to create a lot from very little as he looked at a picture book for potential lore without substance to back up the materials, visuals. It stands to reason that you work with what you got. That was one of my. That was my enduring complaint. As I was watching the movie, I was like there's a lot of shit in here that they're not explaining, oh so much. But for me as a little kid, it made sense, but, like for me as an adult, I was like why is he wearing a golden dress? Oh my god, where did it come from?

Speaker 1 25:10

oh, I have so much to say about that. I would like to buy that and wear it out.

Speaker 2 25:13

Yeah, also but like we don't explain. So I like made this list in my head. I was like we don't explain gump at all at all. We don't explain the hierarchy of gump. We don't explain where the unicorns are when they're not in the forest. We don't explain why the armor is there, yeah. We don't explain, like, why this guy is like a defector, yeah, and is like on the goblin side, but he's not a goblin, right? Nobody is. Because is he an elf? Is he a fairy? We don't make a distinction there. We just sort of have this generalized fairy presence, right? Um, we don't explain the bog witch at all but do you need to?

Speaker 2 26:00

I mean the bog which is fine, the bog which is fine, kind of stand on her own, yeah, which was come back, the bog, which was fine. But like there's so many elements in this movie that they just and I'm fine with saying you don't really need to know there's some things that like it's just there, you accept it, you move on. Yeah, right, but some things I was like we're introducing a lot of elements here. Lily was supposed to be this princess. We don't explain that. Yeah, we don't know that she's a princess.

Speaker 1 26:37

Yeah, Like why I don't understand. He's like Cooper has had all these questions that I did not have when I was 12 watching this movie. He probably had the same ones I had when I watched it for the first time. Should we pause for a second? Everything you're saying yeah, so did you like the movie? I did not like the movie. I knew you wouldn't and I'm so ready for your hot takes on it. I love Tim Curry and we'll get to that.

Speaker 1 27:00

And I just kept going what the fuck? Like everything and like Brown, tom and Screwball, like you've got all these like folklore names, but then you got a character named Screwball. Like you thought all these like folklore names, but then you got a character named Screwball. Yeah, I was like what's happening? Like I was driving Amelia to school and I was like she's like, are you okay? I was like I'm just thinking about this movie I watched. I was like and I just said legend, she goes, I haven't seen it and she would probably love it. We were watching it when she was at my house the other night and I said it was for the podcast. Yeah, jamila was coming and I said I don't know, it's just like it's like fairies and stuff. But then there's this guy named Screwball. She goes, oh, and she's like he's a character. I was like he's kind of a puppet. She goes, sounds cute.

Speaker 1 27:48

I go, he's not, I'm going to cramp, okay, so you like it. I had so many questions, not I?

Speaker 2 27:53

still okay. I still like it from a formative, nostalgic perspective. As a standalone movie it kind of hits the same vein as the music from labyrinth.

Speaker 1 28:05

Okay, oh, got you um, which explains why I still freaking adore this movie. Yeah, yeah, I fucking love it. I can't help it, I know, I know.

Speaker 2 28:19

I need this. I'm gonna say something that's extremely controversial, and it is something I would never ever say.

Speaker 1 28:26

Well, I will take well, you're just putting it out into the universe our five listeners. I have none of those six. We're up to 5000 downloads. Thank you, universe. This week I know 5000. Jamila is going to push us to 6000. Here we go, here we go.

Speaker 2 28:43

Statement whatever it is, controversial, hot take. I think it. I think we could do a remake of this. No, you cannot.

Speaker 1 28:54

I want the adult remake. Do we want some curry back? No, yeah, daddy's gotta we gotta retire.

Speaker 2 29:01

It'd be granddaddy now. You know, grand grandpa's got, he's got some things. Oh, that's true, he's got some things going on, thanks I. But I think that this movie is a good candidate for an adult remake. I don't, I don't want to see it as a children's movie. No, I want that hot daddy energy. Uh because, and let's talk, can we talk about the?

Speaker 1 29:21

deleted scene now. Oh yeah, let's go. I mean, I have notes, we don't have to go in order, we just talk about as we want, okay because this relates to the deleted scene.

Speaker 2 29:28

So we'll tell katie what. The deleted scene, the deleted scene and that wasn't really a deleted scene, it was never shot, it was right in the original screenplay. Got it In the original screenplay which, again, we have to remember, was for an adult audience. The darkness when Lily comes in. And I'm going to step back to step forward. One of my issues with this movie is the this whole innocence thing. Yeah, and it was supposed to be a corruption of innocence, except he never really actually corrupts her. Lily stands her ground. Yeah, all the way to the bitter end, and even her switch doesn't really make sense. No, and that's one thing that I actually like about her as a character is she was like, absolutely not Evangeline laughed with the scene where he's like do you like?

Speaker 1 30:17

it and she's like no my child laughed so hard. Yeah, but felt so honest, like from the chest yes it was very honest and how many times have you been in a situation where you're like yeah, no no, in the context of the 80s, yeah, it would have been her oh, point for sure.

Speaker 2 30:38

That would have been the moment where she's like I've got this dress. You showed me some jewelry, boy, I'm in. It was like, no, no, I'm still not. This is, this is like yeah, I danced with the imaginary oh, I love that scene.

Speaker 2 30:51

I do like that that was one of my favorites is a very beautiful scene, um, and I really like it, but and I really like the, the allegory of it, yes, well, yes, the demon baby. I didn't know what I was like. I'm not sure what we're doing there with that, but anyway, I don't remember a demon baby. I have to go back and watch it. There's this little demon, what? And in the background, when the dress is dancing, you can see it like Stop, really, no, I didn't see it. Okay, it reminds me of do you remember the dancing baby Ally McBeal? Yeah, it looks like the dancing baby.

Speaker 1 31:28

Alright, I'm going to do a Google search while we're talking, because now I have to see it.

Speaker 2 31:31

It's like out of focus Right to do a google search while we're talking, because now I have to see it like out of out of focus, right in the background, but it's there and I do. You think that's like an easter egg? I don't know I don't remember it from like when I watched it as a kid, so I must have just like not paid attention to it, but I saw it last night. Oh, the dn started the dark, the whole thing, but in the you see it in the background Anyway, oh my God.

Speaker 2 31:56

I have to look this up now. So her turn doesn't make sense because she stood strong in her life. Yes, I'm going to undo this. I made the mess, I'm cleaning it up. I'm enduring this to clean it up. So in the original adult version, she actually darkness, actually torments her and to her her change um and and tortures her into loving him.

Speaker 1 32:20

Okay, and then he assaults her yeah, like violently, violently assaults her so you know that scene where it's like there is a scene that's like an implied yeah, yeah, yeah, where there's actually two implied sex.

Speaker 2 32:30

oh, that's right, there is two scene. Yeah, there's actually two implied sex scenes.

Speaker 1 32:32

Oh, that's right. There is two. It was supposed to be where one of those is, and I think it's the one where she's right in the beginning, right, isn't that where that happens? I'm getting things confused in my brain.

Speaker 2 32:43

It's after by the time she's like, no, when she's dressed.

Speaker 1 32:49

That's when it yes, Okay, got it, Got it.

Speaker 2 32:51

Got it Because she's pushing back, and so he pushes back and then he sexually assaults her after she gives in. Right, and For me I don't, that is not a thing. Ok, so let me say I don't enjoy at all sexual violence in movies. Me either. It is a thing that turns me off. I do not like it. I. Sexual violence in movies, me either. It is a thing that turns me off. I do not like it. I do not want to see it. Even when it makes sense in the movie, I don't want to see it. Same.

Speaker 2 33:18

But I will say that for a movie that is about the corruption of innocence, and then a movie where she is supposed to commit extreme violence and you are supposed to believe her capable of extreme violence, because murdering a unicorn, murdering purity, the last unicorn, the last purity in the world, in the, in the universe, is an extreme act of violence.

Speaker 2 33:47

So you have to take somebody who is innocent and make them capable of extreme violence and the way that that happens is trauma. Yeah, and so for me I was like and the other little tidbit on that was, the screenwriter was really upset that they took that out Hmm, and I was like from a vision perspective, I understand it, because if you're trying to make this argument that this young woman, who was pure and innocent, is corrupted by absolute evil and is made to, then want to, because it's through her own desire to do this, and then she does the heel turn right, she's supposed to want to do this and then she does the heel turn right, she's supposed to want to do this extreme act of violence but see, I never believed that she was going to and maybe that's why okay, right, it's different.

Speaker 1 34:44

I knew I was like, oh, she's got a plan, so because she's gonna free her fast, yeah, yeah, it's very quick, agree goes from if they had.

Speaker 2 34:52

Like, I think it would have been easier to believe that she could have done it if they had made that descent slower, yes, and also a pivotal point in that would have been when she touched the unicorn.

Exploring Style vs Substance in Fantasy

Speaker 2 35:06

Yes, okay, which that scene made me so mad Me too, Bro, you're going to take this to go see this unicorn you are not going to have. I know and this is as me, who has taken people to like sacred spaces yeah, this is how you don't get to. You're going to feel overwhelmed by this. You're going to love this. You're going to have all these feelings. Don't fucking touch anything, right, don't mess it up. Thing like you. You are experiencing. You are overwhelmed by privilege. I get it. Yeah, that like there's so many things, because even that they didn't sell that I know they did.

Speaker 2 35:50

I, I really do believe that her being this princess was completely unnecessary. Yeah, could have made her Nell's daughter. Yeah, could have made her this girl from the woods. And they fell in love because the whole thing with her being the princess they didn't explore that at all. No, not really. It didn't matter, it was a completely useless detail because they didn't talk about well, I can't marry you because you're this boy from the woods. They didn't put that tension in there, which would have been a it's a trope, but it would have been a solid thing, henshin, to give this couple who's like falling in love. They didn't do that. They talked about like oh yeah, got suitors.

Speaker 1 36:32

Yeah, where are your suitors? Where are your suitors? Where are your suitors? Oh, and then she like threw the ring, where are your suitors? Never can find this can marry me. I'm like, why did she do that? That was so useless.

Speaker 2 36:42

Why'd she do that? Another implied sex scene. So like, yeah, yeah, there's no tension between these two, right, like, let them fall, let them be in love. Yeah, but there was no implied tension, so that was wasn't useful. Um, she was very comfortable in the woods, so it wasn't like she was the fish out of water and there was no reason, even in the darkness aspect, because he wasn't trying to manipulate her into letting her, you know, into getting into her kingdom. No, so it was just like we have this formula, yeah, for fairy tale yes, and everyone's gonna like her.

Speaker 1 37:21

Well, I got mad at that scene because immediately and I know they do it on purpose but it's the whole like garden of eden allegory where of course the woman messes everything up, she touches the forbidden thing. We also fixed it. She ruined it, but she didn't fix it. We had an impulse control problem. Yes, we can't be trusted.

Speaker 2 37:39

You put a unicorn in front of me.

Speaker 1 37:41

Listen, yes, I'm going to touch it Unicorns for a second. They're beautiful, I love them. Okay, let's just talk. There were movies in the 80s about unicorn Really. Yeah, do you not remember the last unicorn? Oh, it's a cartoon. You've forgotten it. No, I don't. The last unicorn, I don't remember the last unicorn. Then they're in Never Ending Story. No, not Never Ending Story, they're in. What was the other one I was thinking of? They had the last unicorn. Then there's another one. They were all over the place in the 80s, yes, but the first time I saw one that I thought was real, it was.

Speaker 2 38:13

Beautiful. So, as an overall statement, I will say that when we're talking about style versus substance, they nailed the style. Oh my god, yes.

Speaker 1 38:21

Usually the movie. I agree with that. There was glitter everywhere. I know the soft focus. I like the close-ups of Mia Saris' face with the glitter Gorgeous. Yeah, it's like very, very. Yeah, let me tell you, I need to walk around with a soft focus and glitter. Yeah, that's it. And the hair. I need the hair. Oh yeah, oh yeah yeah yeah, I mean, we're supposed to be a child or is she a young woman? No, she's a young woman. She's supposed to be a child.

Speaker 2 38:50

Okay, the way that Nell spoke to, I thought she was like a teenager, but maybe it's a motherly and I noticed that Nell has that whole conversation with her about how she needs to stop running around in the woods, right.

Speaker 1 39:02

Yeah, grow up, be a princess, right needs to grow up now.

Speaker 2 39:06

That, for me, made her seem like a child, not a little child like like that coming of, like this.

Speaker 1 39:14

It made the argument that this is a coming of age yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking, and they refer to jack as a boy right, they do, that's true, even though he was an adult, right.

Debating the Fantasy Film Legend

Speaker 2 39:23

but it still brings the ick factor of this. That was my age, but again we're talking about the 80s and it was a. It was an innocence, it was a betrayal and corruption of innocence, right, which is a kink, by the way.

Speaker 1 39:40

Yes, and I mean as an adult movie that would make sense. I just was watching it like is she supposed to be 15?, is she 20? Like yeah, what's going?

Speaker 2 39:49

on with her Vague and they don't, it's again't, it's again, it's another. It is another place where the movie is at war with itself. Yeah, because they, they want to infer that they are children, and I mean children in the, in the way that I will say children, which is the teens are children. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, um, I don't do the adultification of teens. Uh, y'all can pack that bullshit up, thank you so they are.

Speaker 1 40:14

Yeah, thank you. Sorry, evangeline, but you already know that she's your mother. She knows that my aunt is my teen sister. She's your mother, and this is not funny.

Speaker 2 40:20

Yeah, this is not the first time she's heard this. Oh, that's the right choice. Yeah, I can't do it because, being an adult, were children and but they didn't want to make them obviously children, okay. So they sort of did this vague, like we're not going to talk about ages, we're going to give you enough to infer that they're children, but not make them children, because also, like them, being physical right also brings in this little bit of like you know, yeah, um, and not to say that teenagers aren't because I'm not stupid and I was like we don't want to see that either, like yeah, yeah and then also you're, then you're dealing with this, the again the trope of this.

Speaker 2 41:11

Yeah, this daddy, right, this mature, developed daddy, 18 feet tall, apparently.

Speaker 1 41:20

He's 18 feet tall. Oh, whatever, whatever.

Speaker 2 41:28

Let's just make him gradually larger throughout the podcast.

Speaker 1 41:30

Let's show that guy by the end 600 feet tall.

Speaker 2 41:36

But he's this enduring like, but also still living with his parents. Talk about that too.

Speaker 1 41:43

Well, that was confusing for me. I was going to say so he's not Satan, no, he's the Lord of Darkness Okay. The father is Satan or under I don't know't know something again.

Speaker 2 41:56

That's another thing you're not supposed to know I guess vague, like because they didn't want to direct, because they do reference heaven and hell on the screen in the, in the yes crawl and the yeah in the beginning, right, right, but they don't make him overtly sat even though there's so much imagery around Right, like the torture, the fire the horns, the rat, like all of it, his realm being like full of fire and torment. But they don't. I don't know. Maybe Satan has like a trademark on his name. He just likes the trademark.

Speaker 1 42:33

They're like Lord of Darkness Captain Kitty Comes to call in hell, or that, like Satan daddy is.

Speaker 2 42:41

You know they don't want to get sued. Okay, yeah, wait.

Speaker 1 42:45

Are we going back to unicorns? No, okay.

Speaker 2 42:49

They were very beautiful, though I forgot what I was going to say It'll come back.

Speaker 1 42:54

I will say the unicorns, I, I, even though they were mythical and fiction and all the things when they, when the unicorn no, okay were they, because that that wasn't. I got a whole thing about how okay well, I was just gonna say I was actually really sad when the one unicorn died and the way the other one was like crying around, that actually pulled at my heartstrings, that was the one.

Speaker 2 43:14

Am I so upset about it? One of the things my complaints about this movie is the failure to emote. Like they didn't make you care about Jack. They didn't. Uh-uh, Sarah, it's not Sarah. Lily Labyrinth A little bit more, but they still don't do a good job of like making you connect with the characters. In a way you feel something for them I mean, do they though?

Speaker 1 43:44

yeah, I was sad, crying and walking around him, and the only thing about the unicorn, though, that troy ruined it for me because I was like so excited I was like slow-mo unicorns, I totally forgot. He goes um. Those horns are kind of floppy, are they? Stop it? I didn't even notice. Everything for me, magic for me, and he's like oh, did you think they were real?

Speaker 2 44:10

they found real. They went to you know a bali and they found unicorns.

Speaker 1 44:15

How dare you I'm going to the renaissance fair this weekend and I heard they have unicorns there. Watch for a picture. Oh yeah, I want to see it. I want to see it. I have.

Speaker 2 44:23

I'm also dressing like an elf, so but okay, so here's my issue with the unicorns. Okay, all right. What is it as a as a story feature? Yes, okay, you first of all bitch, your husband gets killed and you're about to just doom the whole universe. Oh, I know, because your bro got got deaded second, but he was over there playing with that girl. Why was why? Why was he playing with that?

Speaker 1 44:51

I mean he's an animal. I don't think he's thinking but are they? Like. I'm not for that. He's magical, so you're right. They probably are like animal with a capital a guardians for these things.

Speaker 2 45:03

Like they are dependent the the universe is dependent on, and they're just animals frolicking. Y'all are just letting them frolic in the forest. Yeah, no thing. They're mincing around, mincing. Have no guardian, I'd rather be mincing no. No desire to fight.

Speaker 1 45:21

No desire to fight, and but they also, that's true.

Speaker 2 45:24

Protective instincts at all.

Speaker 1 45:26

No, they're like hey, that'd be me mythical creature.

Speaker 2 45:31

I would just be like, okay, I'm done, I don't want to do they, like these guys, are sort of useless, so we should probably put them under a glass, like we should. Oh, you're right, guardians, because we have. We have the technology, we have swords and shields and shit, so why aren't we right protecting these?

Speaker 1 45:47

are the elves. There's apparently a lot of elves and fairies. Brown tom, who eventually protected the mayor. Yeah, did I. Brown the guy who gets, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he found his name because I thought it was weird, it's funny.

Speaker 2 46:01

And let's talk about the fact that, like the, the side characters you like, connect more with the side characters than you know being characters?

Speaker 1 46:08

yeah, do you feel like they threw those in, though, to make it more kid friendly?

Speaker 2 46:11

they did, yeah, sure, yeah yeah that was like part of their like we need something. But there was also. There was also another one that got cut out.

Speaker 1 46:19

Oh, there's another yeah, tick, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, I forgot, he was just youthful, they said he was usually anything. I felt like sometimes I, depending what they were doing, I couldn't tell the difference between those two, yeah, unless someone said screwball and I was like we're gen, they're like they're that name again and that is where it comes down to.

Speaker 1 46:37

It was very generic, they were very, very generic and I was like why is this the guy watching the unicorn? Like there was no, like no explanation of that. Yeah, no, you're guarding the unicorn now and he's like cool, and then people are shooting. He's got a pen. Can I tell y'all something?

Speaker 1 46:54

I'm like what can I tell y'all something full honestly uh-oh, did you not remember any of that? No, no, okay, I mean that would check. I like literally I. I feel like our listeners need to have a bingo game, and every time I say I don't remember that you get a. Or a drinking game. Don't do a drinking game. You should be in a hospital by the end of one, exactly no, as y'all are sitting here saying all these things, like I felt none of that, like I was just having a great time but and like did not even give a shit that it makes sense I also want to give like deference to that.

Speaker 2 47:24

Like, yeah, that is a movie where you are there for the vibe. Oh yeah, okay, you're not trying to learn anything. No, because also let's talk about how Jack was our white hero.

Speaker 1 47:37

And this man Dress for the fucking Eros tour. It was beautiful.

Speaker 2 47:42

Listen, he's shown up at the Met Gala and been banging. Ok, hello legs. Oh no, I did not. That's why they did that. Hello Eyes were I'm ringing. Come on, tom Cruise, I'm watching for those. I'm not, I'm not, you know. Okay, we had this whole conversation last night about how tom cruise is my like, how jack is my type, because my husband has, yeah, for real, like, yeah, I see that coloring same hair, same and I was like, but I think I think rich gives more off.

Speaker 1 48:12

Like um surfer jesus vibes. He is well not surfer jesus.

Speaker 2 48:16

Well, he's just a period. He's a very hippie jesus, though. Right yeah, his whole personality. We'll show you a picture very happy jesus. I've seen him on your socials probably, but he shows up, he's like a, he is a very much a unicorn on my socials, like it's usually like yeah, you, and then like he pops up every once in a while, yeah, Pops in every now and then.

Speaker 2 48:35

I try to, like, give him some measure of privacy. Yeah, oh, that's fair. You know he doesn't want to be attached. Well, level of crazy. And now we're talking about you on a podcast, right? Yes?

Speaker 1 48:55

Hi, the thighs were thigh in. Yeah, they were nice, but and they had him crouching a lot.

Speaker 2 48:57

Did you know that? It was like see his underwear constant. But the reason for that was they were trying to sell the jungle boy kind of thing, yeah, but they didn't carry through. I know he wasn't feral at all, he was super feral, he was gorgeous. He was not feral, no, and he also was not very pure of heart. No man went to murder real quick, like real quick, like that jump was super speedy. The bog witch, yeah, he's pure part hero first time. She was really. She was really pissed about this.

Speaker 1 49:32

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 49:38

There was no emotional and he didn't try. I mean, he did have this conversation with her, but he didn't try to de-escalate it. He didn't try to say I don't want to hurt you, I am this innocent, I don't want to hurt you, I have this love of nature. He was like you going to eat me, all right, no, you're not, boo.

Speaker 1 49:59

Nothing. I was like the storyline that that's the first time he'd ever used weapons. Yes, that was the other storyline. Yeah, that was like the first time he didn't even know.

Speaker 2 50:09

I didn't know. He actually, he actually says that, oh, okay, yeah, I don't know how to use it. I'm not a hero? I don't know how to use weapons. Girl, you were not paying attention, you were not there for the dialogue. You were like give me. Tim Curry.

Speaker 1 50:26

Although I would say I waited a long time for Tim Curry Talk about that A long time Like the last 40 minutes of the movie.

Speaker 2 50:33

I've been, I've been. It's a little whising for the first half of the movie.

Speaker 1 50:39

Oh, can I tell you, one of the most favorite things he said was in the beginning, where he's just saying stuff, where they're talking about the unicorn, yeah, and he's talking to the goblin guy, and he was like they were talking about there's only one left, and they're like, oh, only the female is left. She has no power. And he's like I really don't the power of creation. I found, bro, bro, it was Tell y'all. I stood up from my couch and my two male folks that I was watching it with, can we, yeah, go ahead? No, they just looked at me and I was like, hello, this is some feminist, yeah, like power in that movie. Which is ironic, isn't it?

Speaker 2 51:17

because the misogyny but yeah, because there's so much misogyny. But but here's my other thing about that. So the the movie was a was, uh, for the 80s, a really feminist movie. She stood on business, like she was like I this up. But even the idea that like she did something wrong, she didn't do anything wrong, she was not informed, right, she had no idea what she was doing, she was of, she really was very innocent and she went out and was like I, just, I want to touch a unicorn. But even in the way that she approached the unicorn, she got down on, yeah, on her knees, yeah, he didn't come at the unicorn, right, right, like bowed and like waited and the unicorn came to her, yeah, she did not force herself right into that scenario.

Speaker 1 52:06

That's what made me mad about that. Yeah, that's like now everyone's mad at her and she's ruined everything, but like she didn't, she didn't.

Speaker 2 52:12

She didn't because like what all y'all are like looming around flying and shit and disappearing and reappearing, and nobody was like babe, I know, maybe don't that.

Speaker 1 52:22

Well, he did say lily don't, but I'm like after she's already there and also friend.

Speaker 2 52:27

Yeah, you saw this girl get up, I know, tackle her ass, I know, right, you didn't. You like sweetie. Then he straight up walked, okay, he got, he got kind of pissed and walked away. And then she was like sweetie, I just want to touch a unicorn. And he was like that's right, I forgive you. And then it was done.

Speaker 2 52:46

And, yeah, what did we just do that for right, but nobody informed her. She went right to it with no information and then she caused something and then she repaired to hear this Jack was completely fucking superfluous. Oh, he was superfluous. They should have been the same character. There was no reason for them to have been two separate characters. Right, she could have done that whole thing Without him by herself, like she could have descended into hell, gotten trapped with the unicorn. Yeah, gone on down there and done the whole. Could have descended into hell, gotten trapped with the unicorn. Yeah, gone on down there and done the whole. We could have. We could have cut jack round tongue screwball. All of them we didn't like, yes, of them like none of them oh, but then that would have messed up the whole movie.

Speaker 1 53:49

Come on, I need the glitter and I need the goblin.

Speaker 2 53:52

I don't know who's listening to me, but when we do the, when we do the, the, the labyrinth not. Rather, I'm sorry, I'm so in labyrinth, I know. When we do the legend remake, it's just going to be darkness and it's going to be the movie that Fifty Shades should have been. Ok, I like it, it's just going to be her. Not about that. Being the, the, the bratty sub and daddy daddying movie.

Speaker 1 54:18

That's not a redo, I love it, that's just I want it. It's like inspired by the other one, but indicted me it. Yeah, okay. So now I'm writing fanfic. There you go. I love it all, let's go. You heard it here first. Everyone who heard it here first. Okay, wait, I have a really stupid thing to say. Yes, that bothered me the whole time. Okay, good, something bothered you. I laughed so hard when you see what it was. Do we think that tom cruise is a mouth breather in real life or in the movie? Because, hold on, you know, he had a nose job to fix a deviated septum, which does make you a mouth breather. Okay, he had the nose job before this movie. Okay, I think it must have been in between Outsiders and this one, because he did not have the nose job in Outsiders. Okay, because his nose looks different, if you remember.

Speaker 2 55:06

Okay.

Speaker 1 55:06

Anyway, the whole time I'm watching, because I myself am a mouth breather and I struggle really hard to keep my mouth close when I am like in regular life, so I'm not like walking around like this. But he did the whole movie, the whole movie. His mouth is just a little open like this. Well, especially if he had just gotten that fixed, maybe he was still.

Speaker 2 55:31

Y'all didn't notice that. I did not notice, but also, did you notice that?

Speaker 1 55:36

basically, she noticed it. Yeah, he did. Yeah, multiple mouth. Maybe it's my health thing, but I don't know, maybe it was hot there. I probably I would. I thought I could have not noticing it and I was like, troy, do you think he's a mouth breather? And he was like what? That's what you want to know Out of all the shit to notice in this movie. Right, hello, first time he smiled and I don't mean shade, because I think Tom Cruise is an attractive person but I was like, oh man, he really hadn't, like, grown into his teeth yet. Well, he didn't have his teeth fixed yet. Yeah, yeah, oh, didn't have orthodontics yet. It's fine.

Speaker 2 56:12

But I was like, oh, like, like, how you expect from the tom cruise you see in your head, yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, he didn't have his orthodontic yeah, then tom cruise was a piece in that movie and he was, but they just under like, like that was the extent of his character, right was like his character was pretty and I don't know who in charge of the costumes.

Speaker 1 56:38

I was like, oh yeah, we're putting him in a gold dress they were like.

Speaker 2 56:41

First of all, there's a lot of and I no shade on germany, but there's a lot of germans involved in it oh yeah yeah, it makes sense yeah, it does also.

Speaker 1 56:49

did y'all notice? Cooper pointed this out to me the second that gum came on on the screen. Cooper goes, goes was that kid. And Malcolm in the middle. He looks like Frankie, he does look like him. And I said, oh my God, no, like that kid wasn't even born yet, but like he looks exactly like him. Yeah, he does. It was weird, right? Yeah, anyway, those are my two, my two inputs.

Speaker 2 57:12

Thank you for that this was another like style piece and this is like so small and so good, like do what you want with this. But um, there was a lot of like stylistic imagery in that movie which also was like y'all just could have toned that down and you could have written a better story, but anyway, 15, 15 rights and that guy can't get over that.

Character Development and Sensuality in Film

Speaker 1 57:31

and that's what I'm Can't get over that. I'm never going to get over that. At least you're a writer. I bet it's really bothering you. I've been fired five times.

Speaker 2 57:38

Two drafts in yeah, 15 drafts and we got no character development at all.

Speaker 1 57:44

This is what we get. Yeah, when we were talking about the Wizard, it was written in two weeks or something Three, three weeks and two weeks, or something, three, three weeks, and we were like, yeah, it makes sense, yeah, but like this one.

Speaker 2 58:01

If you told me that I'd be like, oh, I see it, but 15 rewrites. And this is what we get yeah, 15 and no, and zero, zero character development. But what we did get was details, like the lilies, with lily like right, yeah, her in that scene and there were lilies underneath her which, for for no fucking reason other than they just wanted to, because there's, there's no reason that lilies would be in the woods yeah, like there he was showing, yeah, yeah, she, she was like of lilies, he, yeah, patch of lilies. Then also the scene there was a scene where she was getting ready to go into the like she stood up to go into the unicorns and there was a hemlock which is right next to her.

Speaker 1 58:43

I did not notice that. Mila's got to notice all the play. I love that, though. Yeah, all the herbalist, all the herbalist, all the herbalist.

Speaker 2 58:50

There were a few more things that I was like oh, you guys really did some detail work and maybe that was accidental, right, but like once accidental, twice seems a lot. But there was a lot of like detail work that they did around that movie. That I was like and I chalk it up to Ridley Scott being Ridley Scott, but also like y'all, we could have just developed some characters.

Speaker 1 59:14

Just one Like we could have. That's the tagline. We could have developed characters. That's the tagline, except for me, where I'm like glitter and unicorns, let's go, let's go. And glittery heart for what? Everything, I don't know. Because it was cute. For what it was cute, I don't know, cute, but let's all right, let's, let's talk about it, let's get into it. Ok, all right. So I mean, appropriately, he doesn't come into the movie until like way past the halfway point, fully, yeah, and let's talk about where his hoof comes through.

Speaker 2 59:44

Girl. That is All right. So there are some like like best entry, yeah, All the times. One of them is Jack Sparrow. When he falls into the port and steps off One of the greatest instances of all time yeah. But when Daddy comes onto the scene with his hoof and his chest and his horn, I was like how else am I supposed to feel?

Speaker 1 1:00:12

about this. All right, 10 feet tall? I doubt 100 feet tall, yes, so this was. I have to say it was so awkward for me to watch. I don't know, you have, like you, watch with your daughter, so it might be a little bit dynamic than me watching it with my one of my son, my youngest son, and my husband who they had Troy had never seen it, which I was like hello, you are why. But you got neither. But that's okay, we get. Troy likes fantasy stuff and in the 80s. But so I'm watching it with the two of them and I'm like, oh no, here I come. This is awkward. And I was like this is I, I try to say next to me and cooper's at the end of the couch and I said this is kind of weird.

Speaker 2 1:00:51

Watching with you guys, okay, that wasn't the kind of weird scene. For me, the entry was because there was a badassness to it that I was like, look at him, there he comes, yeah, yeah. It was the moment where she passes out, oh yeah, and he like, yeah, crawl, yeah he's, I think just like leaning over her, but the visual, yeah, crawling over her, and I was like I gotta go. Yeah, I wish I was alone, right now, I know.

Speaker 2 1:01:20

It was so embarrassing. I was in a weird arouse watching Because what they did, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 1:01:26

I bumped this. You're good, we're all verklempt now, exactly, I know.

Speaker 2 1:01:37

Like I'm now exactly I know like I'm twitter painting. Um. So because the overt, like you can't. That's why I always say this movie is at war with itself, because you cannot deny the overt sensuality right of who he is. Yeah, and even before, like they can try to make this argument that like he was trying to seduce her because daddy told him to you can go seduce girls because your daddy told you. But he, even before that, when he's sitting and he's brooding with his, with his day glow nails and his eyeballs, like he has this broody you under sex, like, yeah, energy to him.

Speaker 1 1:02:17

Yeah, where you're, like you know what you need well, doesn't he even say I can't get this like off my mind. Oh yeah, I knew something about this. Yes, uh, okay. So what was your take on the hot satan? So good that you, okay, so good, you are gonna agree with us on that.

Speaker 2 1:02:36

Amazing eyes like I was really paying attention to the makeup. Yeah, yeah, because I was like, right, I kind of want to like be put off of this. Like maybe I just didn't look hard, but I was looking at his eyebrows and I was like they were good voice.

Speaker 1 1:02:50

Okay, yeah, the voice. They do not have to go as hard as they did with the muscles.

Speaker 2 1:02:54

No.

Speaker 1 1:02:54

They did not and somebody knew what they were doing and the attire. Can we please think about that?

Speaker 2 1:03:00

They really went for it. It was minimal, like there wasn't a lot because there was so much makeup and like, so his attire was minimal, but it was so much drama. Yeah, like hate so much drama?

Speaker 1 1:03:19

yeah, hate, yeah, yeah, it was, it was good. I feel like this would be such a fun cosplay, but you could only be of one certain body type. Yeah, dude, you're not. I mean, unless you're putting on a lot of like, I would say you don't care, like the, like plastic, like abs, like you can buy people, like you have to look and see you right, there's gotta be. Oh, trust me, there's gotta be. Well, and those were prosthetics on him. Oh, yeah, for sure, but yeah for sure, but okay, and I'm always here for a good evil eyebrow. Y'all know what I mean when I say oh yeah, and he had it, hundreds of them. What he had two of them going. Not only did he have one, he had two. You guys, I mean, I like eyebrows. There's just something about it.

Speaker 2 1:03:56

You could, yeah, you have a nice broad shoulders and like yeah, this is why I say like this is also a feminist movie, because you know, in all of its like 80s feminism, let me put that tack on oh yeah, yeah, yeah, um, because they so a lot of times, when you're talking about women getting seduced in movies, like when it's the Nosferatu effect, right, right, yeah, you look at them and you're like girl, yeah are you okay?

Speaker 1 1:04:25

like, what, like right are you doing?

Speaker 2 1:04:27

it. Uh, how? How did that happen?

Speaker 1 1:04:30

oh, it was just the supreme evil, right, but this thing you get it this year, like you get it, yeah, they actually um gave women enough of a thought, or maybe it was for the men.

Speaker 2 1:04:42

I'm not trying to I mean it's for whoever was found this attractive, but they gave people enough of a, enough consideration to say like we're gonna code him in a certain way, that it's not just that he talked to her, it's not just that he's powerful, it's that even in all, and it's sort of again, we're talking about sort of this metaphor yeah, for like being seduced into, into darkness. You're looking at it and you're like I, I know, I know he's got horns and I know he's got, but but like hear me out, hear me, hear me out From the eyebrow down to the knee, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:05:26

And the teeth and the teeth. Oh, the teeth were so good. What was up with that? I just, they were good.

Speaker 2 1:05:33

They coat. Because there are certain things like I was having this discussion with a friend of mine about vampires, see, and how vampires are arousing and we don't like on its face it's like what Well, some are, some are not.

Speaker 1 1:05:47

Yeah, but the concept, but the concept itself yeah, and it should be terrifying.

Speaker 2 1:05:52

Right, but somehow we've been like it's scary.

Speaker 1 1:05:55

I know, I like it, it'd be okay, it's got to go Well, right? Maybe Remember when we went and saw Dracula? We went and saw Just a quick aside it was, it was a now he's saying, but he was good, he was really good, but there was a part where he starts biting the heads off babies and we just started laughing we did and blood was on. Oh, like literally. No, I mean, is he biting babies? He was feeding babies to the other vampires girl. It was cray, but then they had fake blood and it was squirting because, you know, stage blood is hard to control, yeah. And so it was like 10 feet in front of us.

Speaker 1 1:06:32

We were laughing, and then we had a friend who was on the show and we were like, oh gosh, was that? We're like we're all trying to be funny? And he was like, well, not really, but whatever, like y'all got from, it is great. We like dying. We were very entertained. I mean like they did a good job of putting that like attractive. Oh, definitely higher vibe. But were you yeah, like, yeah, like serious? I want to say no, but I feel darkness is coded that way.

Speaker 2 1:07:00

Yeah, but they they didn't under produce that. They were like we are going to. Yes, we could, because they could. I feel like they could have gotten there without all of that. Sure, he could, yeah, been a dude, like they could have just made him red or they could have. You know, it couldn't have just been temporary, but they could have done less makeuping and less specific makeuping and I think we still could have gotten there. Yeah, but they did what they did.

Speaker 1 1:07:28

Yeah, like they gave him a 27 pack okay, gave him a full up case of beer on that and then they made him that the scene again that I go back to the visual.

Speaker 2 1:07:44

I know him just looming over her right. Yeah, the visual of it was like what am I supposed to? What else am I supposed to do?

Speaker 1 1:07:54

I will say, knowing he was coming up, I mean I would have watched it anyway for this episode, but if I was just watching it on my own I probably wouldn't have, I would have stopped. It should have been half hour, I would have been asleep one or whatever. And and I was like, no, I, I got to hold out, I got to hold out for hot Satan, hold out for hot Satan. And in the beginning scene, when it's all dark, I'm like, oh, there he is. And I'm like, oh, because you don't see it, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 1:08:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:08:19

But then when he came back later I was like now we're good when his hoof but realistically.

Speaker 2 1:08:24

Again, it was a great choice. It was Because they don't show him. I know it was really good Hear his voice. You know that he's a brooding drama queen because there was so much.

Speaker 1 1:08:33

Which also we were all here, for that I was here for that we were all here for that, so good.

Speaker 2 1:08:38

And the poetic, like he spoke in an almost poetic way. Yeah, yeah. So I think they coded it in a few different ways, one of which was the intelligent, like well-read, like college daddy, and then professor daddy I'm going to call him. Professor, daddy, professor, daddy, there he is, and then girl we're just going to.

Speaker 1 1:09:02

I do not ever have any attractive professors, though, oh really.

Speaker 2 1:09:05

Zero, not even one. So once again I'm gonna say that, um, I have daddy issues, so any of the daddies, all of them do you think it's from this movie or did it predate this movie?

Speaker 1 1:09:20

oh well, okay, going deep, so I don't.

Speaker 2 1:09:24

I think that this movie was the first time that it like. You know how sometimes you put language to a thing yeah, sure, Right, and you're like there's this been this nebulous thing that's just been floating around in the right of me. But you don't know until you see it. I feel that there was some part of me that definitely leaned into the control Mm, hmm, Daddy.

Speaker 1 1:09:54

And so you see it like all made up and on the screen and you're like that's it, that's it that.

Exploring Confusion and Character Development

Speaker 2 1:09:58

Yeah, that, and in that scene where he crawls over her, and I keep referencing it because that was, yeah, cemented into my brain of like I should be scared. I was aware enough and maybe not the first time I saw the movie I was like six, right but I remember watching that movie and being aware enough to say this is supposed to be scary, I'm supposed to be scary, I am supposed to be scared right now, right, but I also I am not put me in a dress and I'm girl, I'm not passing out.

Speaker 2 1:10:34

You know what I mean. There was something very attractive in that for me, uh, and it wasn't the monster, because I'm not, I'm not like, it's not the, because I know for some women it's oh yeah, the month.

Speaker 1 1:10:45

Yeah, it's the the evil and the whatever, and though the evil, the evil, yes, but you mean like the the monster characteristic and it wasn't actually the body like the body reaffirmed it.

Speaker 2 1:10:59

The body was something about the dynamic for me that I get, that I was like I would have been evil. I totally would have chopped the for real unicorn horn off and we're just gone merrily into the darkness yeah, well, I'm wearing my this is a Hadestown shirt today.

Speaker 1 1:11:17

Yeah, I'm like our lady, our lady of the underground, underground, underground. Yeah, so Persephone, and that's the Persephone. Lore, right that Hades steals her and she agrees to be evil for half the year and live in hell with him, as long as the other half of the year she can be in nature and on land, and like she's and I, so the Persephone, which is interesting.

Speaker 2 1:11:41

Never really did it for me, because I was like why would you go back?

Speaker 1 1:11:44

Yeah, I could just be in there. But when you see Hades in this show and you know you get it he comes for her every six months and she's like, oh, here I go, because there's a point, why would you go back? Why would you go back? Why would you? I would be like, oh, I thought you meant my mama.

Speaker 2 1:12:02

Like, right, I don't want to go to my mom. Yeah, I'd be like girl, you gotta go.

Speaker 1 1:12:05

I think if rich could send me to my mom for six months he'd be like right to go, so he had the better end of that deal, not her. Oh, I see what you're trying to do.

Speaker 2 1:12:13

I would be like I'm not I. I would write my mother staying down here like um, haiti's is smoking hot. We've got a thing going on. Yeah, I gotta, I gotta miss. I gotta just say sorry, sorry, everyone, it's just going to snow, for Okay.

Speaker 1 1:12:29

So let's get. So let's get to Evangeline's question, cause she had a question. I said Evangeline, I'm so sorry, I told, I told her I won't say it wrong Evangeline, what was her question? Okay, evangeline, confusing, is that correct? All right, like did we think this another?

Speaker 2 1:12:47

one you asked me this morning that was, which would have another one I'd like to know more, more about, I think, okay oh, okay, okay.

Speaker 1 1:12:54

So let's do the most confusing. Let's do the most confused. I maybe I should just take a pass on this one, because I'm confused by anybody really.

Speaker 2 1:13:02

I mean, I guess you know what it is, what it is if you I feel like you accepted this movie on a surface level. Yeah, I think that's what it is. What it is if you I feel like you accepted this movie on a surface level. Yeah, you, I think that's what it was. That's a way to watch it. I didn't, yeah, I mean, and I there are lots and lots of movies that I watch that way that I'm like, don't think about it, not think about it, just watch it.

Speaker 1 1:13:18

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure like I went in knowing that and I was just ready to have fun with it. Yeah, maybe if I watched it again and try, I know I think my brain would still be like don't just here for fun, so I'll read it fast. You guys answer.

Analyzing Blank Slate Characters in Media

Speaker 1 1:13:30

I mean, I was confused by a lot of them, but like a lot, a lot, I'm just gonna yeah every single character but I feel like maybe the one I would want to know more about, which is because I was confused about them, is probably jack. Yeah, like, how did you find yourself in this state? Were you raised with the fire, fucking untraumatized? Can we talk about? Yeah, and and very civilized and we, like you said, not very feral, but also has never used a weapon, but somehow apparently like grew up in the woods.

Speaker 2 1:14:02

Okay, good, at it all like, yeah, some, do you know how hard it? I don't know, I don't know I have to it's like wait, I have secret secrets with sword force and precision to chop sword something's head off like I don't know. But I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:14:18

I'm imagining um that the head is not no like, well, yeah, because it's like when they used to have the guillotines, they would get stuck and they had to do it multiple times.

Speaker 2 1:14:29

Yeah, it's because of the blades. That's why they got rid of the chopping block.

Speaker 1 1:14:33

Oh, there we go. That's why they got rid of the chopping block.

Speaker 2 1:14:37

Guys, why does my 14-year-old know this?

Speaker 1 1:14:40

Well, I don't know if they can hear what she's saying, so we may just hear parts of it.

Speaker 2 1:14:53

We'll. We may just hear parts of it repeat. It will repeat what you said too. Yeah, she said that's why they quit with the, the chopping block. But also can we just I need to acknowledge I don't know why my 14 year old knows so much about why they got rid of a torch. I mean execution machines, because smart kids.

Speaker 1 1:14:59

My kids are homeschooled and that they're so smart. Well you're, that's what I was gonna say. Your kids are super go. Your kids are super smart, self-directed.

Speaker 2 1:15:06

So yeah, she's. She was saying that they, danny, had said the guillotine and she was like actually, no, it was. That's why they got rid of of chopping the heads off. Yeah, like manual You're right, it's a little wax, yeah, to get the head chopping. So thank you for that. Yeah, let me make it more humane. Welcome to humans, welcome. We try to find more humane ways to do completely inhumane things instead of just not doing the inhumane things anymore.

Speaker 1 1:15:47

Yours was Jack, mine would be Jack. But does it matter? I mean, it doesn't matter to the story how he got there, hey once again.

Speaker 2 1:15:53

Once again, you got it. I have this thing where and again I write. So I think that's what it is. You guys are both writers and I am not, and I I'm doing this from. I have a critical eye with my own stuff, I have my critical eye, critical eye with other people, and I'm also in the midst of a writing competition where we are reading other people's, so like that's where my brain is. So you got like a feedback.

Speaker 2 1:16:18

I mean, yeah, looking for, yeah, yeah, so for me but also I this is a thing for me with with media and entertainment pieces is you got to shit or get off the pot. Like you have to commit to a thing, right, and you commit and you go all the way with it. Yeah, so like these, and that's my issue with this movie was it wasn't committing, it didn't believe in itself, it wasn't committing to things, it didn't like its own characters, right, and it and it really was a task list movie. It was like we're gonna do this thing and then we're gonna do this thing and then we're gonna. And I want to get to this moment and I'm not going to be really mindful about how these moments grow, the characters, how these moments connect the reader or the person who's experiencing.

Speaker 2 1:17:10

And I was talking to Evangeline about this yesterday or this morning. It was this morning and I was talking about Jack specifically and I said for me there's two things that media so when I'm talking about this I don't mean just movies, but the two things that media does to you when you're talking about characters. One, the character or the piece change requires you to change, to engage with it. So, for example, when you have unlikely heroes, you have your own bias around what a hero looks like and then you're presented with this hero, right, who you're like that you see a lot with anti-heroes like this is a terrible person. Right right now I'm rooting for this terrible person because they're the only one who is actually doing the right thing. That's like house. Did y'all ever watch house?

Speaker 1 1:18:01

yeah, so unlikable um but seriously, he's like he is a prime anti-hero.

Speaker 2 1:18:06

Yes, and you hate to like, yeah, root for him. But now you're rooting for him and like and there's a lot of examples of this but it causes you to confront your bias. It causes you to have to change your mind in order to engage with the character and in order to engage with the story. So the story people talk about, the story, leaves you changed at the end. But then there are characters who are almost a blank slate and you can put whatever, whatever background you want on this character, whatever, whatever he likes to do in his spare time. It doesn't require any change of you for you at all. You can tell yourself whatever story you want to tell yourself about this person, and that's Jack. Jack is a bare minimum character and the good thing about characters like that is if you are of the correct persuasion. So, like a white guy and I would love to talk to a white man about this, just to see if I'm like, because I'm speculating right, but I would imagine it allows you to see yourself in Jack. Oh yeah, probably Blank slate. Yeah, see if I'm like, because I'm speculating right, but I would imagine it allows you to see yourself in Jack. Oh yeah, probably blank slate. Yeah, um, just like for, for you know, it allows you to see yourself in Sarah, it allows you to believe that if I was in that situation, I didn't because I was like girl. No, uh, if I was in that situation, I would be the one defending the unicorn, I would be the one who, right, who's pushing back against this great evil, and I would do the right thing and I would be clever. But you're not. That's uncomplicated by her own story. That's uncomplicated by her own, yeah, you know, personality it is. It is, and that's what this movie feels like to me is a blank slate. And if you're not a person who's, if you're a person who's like I'm here for the glitter, right, this is a very satisfying movie to watch, and I'm not saying that in in a dismissive kind of way.

Speaker 2 1:19:58

There are a slate of movies that I literally watch because I'm like, I don't want to feel anything. Yep, right, I don't want to think too hard about what we do in the shadows. I love that show, because that show requires nothing of me. I don't have to change, I don't. I giggle, yeah, you just watch. The characters are interesting enough, right, like, keep my attention. But like I don't know a lot about Laszlo. I don't and I don't care to know Like. I just want to laugh, right, I want to be entertained. So, and that's no shot against what we do in the shadows, I love that.

Speaker 1 1:20:30

Never watched it. I need to watch it. I need to watch it too. Everybody should watch it. I haven't, so. So who would you want to know more about? Ok, and I'm here.

Speaker 2 1:20:39

For that it's the same in both directions. Enough to me. Gump was to me interesting enough, like intriguing enough from a physical standpoint because he was his body and his presentation was interesting. He was a good little actor and he was good Like. Actually, to me he was the most entertaining on its face, like the most entertaining character I mean, aside from Daddy.

Speaker 2 1:21:04

He stands alone, all exceptions. You know, daddy is the assumed yes, but yes, shows up, he's material, yeah, interesting, yeah and like. But also there's this deference given to him, but nobody explains why.

Speaker 1 1:21:23

I'm gonna say that he seems so authoritative or like like he knows everything, about everything, but then you don't really know. You don't know why or Very interesting.

Speaker 2 1:21:34

They did an interesting in the sea of like uninteresting choices that they made. They made him very interesting because he was childlike.

Speaker 1 1:21:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:21:43

In the ways that the other fairy folk were not. Yeah, that's a choice that they make a lot in fantasy, where fairy folks are children. Yeah, which I'm here for it. I love it, I love the visual of it. But he was childlike, but he was strong and authoritative and he was knowledgeable and he actually was the narrator for much of the story.

Speaker 1 1:22:07

Well and blamed a lot A little bit. He was a little creepy too, like just like this. It was eerie. I think eerie is the is the best word, not creepy obviously there was obviously violence in him.

Speaker 2 1:22:17

Yeah, yeah, and the way that he interacts with una, right, there is, and she, oh yes, we forgot to talk about. We forgot to talk about the consent problem of Una.

Speaker 1 1:22:28

Oh, yeah, yeah, Ew.

Speaker 2 1:22:33

First of all, heather, we are in the way I would have cursed her out. We are in a dungeon Right Now, bitch, right A dungeon, and this is your. I know this is when you're taking a stand, thanks. You want me to kiss you in the middle of a dungeon, right want to. You want to. You want me to kiss you in the middle of a dungeon, right? You want it to mean something? It don't. It don't. It doesn't mean anything, and yeah yeah it's creepy, but cool.

Speaker 1 1:23:01

Okay again, but cool because it was female. Yeah, female to male, yeah, in the 80s, uh-huh, even though it smacks weird.

Speaker 2 1:23:06

And I I want to be clear and say I don't agree with that kind of behavior. I don't agree with um. There's a word for it extorting affection. Yeah, people in a very situation, right, right, it was icky all the way around.

Speaker 1 1:23:21

And I think it was intentionally. Like it was oh, yeah, you were. Yeah, you're supposed to be freaked out by her. Yeah, you were like yeah.

Speaker 2 1:23:28

But like she does it and it's weird because normally in the 80s you would have seen it in the other direction Right right. And it would have felt they would have compounded the it.

Analyzing Female Hero Tropes and Storytelling

Speaker 1 1:23:43

Yeah, I had like a dot revenge of the nerds. Oh no, I can't. Even I had like a dot revenge of the nerds, oh no, I can't even. Um, dawson's Creek, how we talk about all, how every beautiful woman like wants to be with Dawson or whatever, where we've been saying like just this season alone in his bedroom he's had to like fight off girls, stop trying to. And I'm always like what man was writing this script and that's how we know. Oh no, I was like okay, so everyone just is in love with Jack, and like that's almost a fantasy too. Like, yeah, but it's every female hero tropes, yeah, where it's like everyone's somehow in love with him and wants to be with him. I don't know, even though he had no backstory, but nothing happened, the gold dress by the eyes, so it was the thigh, but um, but I don't know, it just struck me as kind of the same thing where it's like of course everyone's in love with this guy for no particular reason I say here's also the issue with that.

Speaker 2 1:24:41

Um, from a storytelling perspective, like we have again, we have again, we have this moment between Una and Jack and and these guys are watching and equally encouraging, I know him to just do it, just get it over with, because he was so devoted to Lily that he wasn't willing to betray her Right To even to get out of this, the dungeon, to save them all and the universe. But to save the universe, yeah, basically. But the fact that, like it was a, it was a very check your bros moment, because it was like, oh, what we actually should be doing in society when things like that happen is y'all should have dogpiled Una and been like are you serious right now?

Speaker 1 1:25:32

Yeah, but they couldn't because she had to get the key Right.

Speaker 2 1:25:35

So then, yeah, I know, you know they just from a, from a justice, equity standpoint, like all y'all did was like just encourage the yeah Yuck, but also fairies, so Correct but also very mean any from a storytelling perspective, it didn't, it was empty Anything. Because didn't have to be there yes, like she and Jack didn't, which would have to me given Jack more of an opportunity to be something, because to be like come here, let me, let's talk about this like, let's have this back and forth, where we reach understanding, where you have to understand that, like I love her, but also, like your girl, you're better than that. Like they had a whole, like well, you know, you're beautiful you.

Speaker 1 1:26:22

You're a fairy. You can share your magic foreigner people, people into a sex ship Also. It made me think of like Peter Pan and Tinkerbell. They had the same thing and even just her little fairy thing that loaded around.

Speaker 2 1:26:37

My thing with Peter Pan, and I feel like I should do an entire episode on my feelings about Peter Pan. But my thing with Peter Pan is Peter Pan gives no fucks. Oh, that's true.

Speaker 1 1:26:47

I would have been like girl, you better go get that key. You're going to like get your ass together, tinkerbell, or else there's going to be a lot of clapping, yeah, okay. Yeah, that's how.

Speaker 2 1:26:58

Peter Pan dealt with Tinkerbell. You're right, or are you in your feelings right now? Get out of them and go do what I asked you to do. And then she did. Peter Pan was with everyone, everybody. Yeah, he's icky, he's so icky in parts, but I also. I also appreciate that energy of like hey, hey, look at me, cut through the nonsense. They try to shoot you with those arrows, wendy. Ok, but you can get over and go make me a pizza.

Speaker 1 1:27:24

Life goes on. You know, not doing this, the emotion that you're oh man, I can totally see why you like that I do.

Speaker 2 1:27:32

It's so bad um, but una, so, but then they didn't do anything with it, like the whole thing with her, and gump like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, first of all, that reveal in the cave was for no reason, right, it didn't. You know that. You know I'm talking about, yeah, where she like, yeah, like, hey, right, I can be a big person, look at me. Yeah, then I was like they were like what, once again, girl, your timing is your timing, and situational awareness Needs so much work, and I think that's where Jack should have, like in this dungeon. Okay, right, oh, like, yeah, oh, I know they were yelling, a lot yelling. Yeah, and we're gonna talk about time and place. Girl, let's sit down. I'm gonna draw on this on this wall. I'm gonna draw you some, you know, right, but social skills, but she does so she reveals herself and then we come back to to it and it means nothing at all.

Speaker 2 1:28:29

Yeah, right, there was no again, like, why, it's been a detail that like, oh, I found out, like she had to, she had to, like we were in peril, and then she got big and then she did a thing, right, oh, no, you're good, she did a thing. And then she was like don't tell anybody about this because blah, blah, blah. No, you're good, she did a thing. And then she was like don't tell anybody about this because but, but, but, but, but, but, but right, there was no explanation. There was no. If they find out, I can do this.

Speaker 2 1:28:58

Right, there's no payoff or anything, yeah, so then we go back to that detail and we learn nothing about it. We, we don't learn why Gump is upset and then he just gets over it and we're nothing about it. We don't learn why Gump is upset and then he just gets over it and we're just moving on. Yeah, it's really weird Big. For the rest of it, you know, like it was like what did we do? What did I go on this trip for? I feel like that's my Game of Thrones thing, like I have so many moments in Game of Thrones where I was like what did you torture me like that for?

Speaker 1 1:29:27

I've never watched Game of Thrones. I haven't either, oh my gosh never.

Speaker 2 1:29:30

Hey, short, short, short thing about Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones, the show I'm not talking about the book. The show has so many moments where they take you through hell and then at the end they're like that was for nothing oh see, I don't want that in my life, like no, that was horrible, too much way.

Speaker 1 1:29:47

Yeah, I'll tell you why I haven't watched it and then we'll move on. It's because I've heard that there's a lot of violence stuff, and I'm not. There's a lot of violence, there's a lot of violence against women and, yeah, I'm not here. I can't. I just literally like, the older I get, the less I can handle.

Speaker 2 1:29:58

I am finding that to be the case as well, that I find that violence against women I I used to tolerate quite a bit of it, and it's not, and I don't know why I feel I need to talk about this, but it's not because it upsets me as a concept and I mean it does. I don't like it, I don't like to, I don't, but it's also that I have churned through it enough. It's the same reason I don't watch movies that are violence against Black bodies. Oh yeah, I've watched all of them. I've watched all the movies. I have felt all the things. I have watched, all the violence against women and I just Carnival Row was like that. I started watching Carnival Row and there was so much violence targeted against women, yeah, I can't do it, that I was like I'm finished. Yeah, there's nothing more for me to learn Right by continuing, if it's not a learning moment. Right, this trauma. So I just, I know it exists, I've experienced it. Right, I've learned everything. I'm going to learn Right About it.

Speaker 1 1:31:08

Let's and for my entertainment time. That's what I mean. Yeah, it's not entertaining me and yeah, exactly then it does the opposite of what I want when I'm being entertained, which means when I turn it off, I feel worse than when I started. Yeah, and I just yeah, anyway, katie, yeah, what else do you have your notes? We didn't get to.

Speaker 1 1:31:20

Oh, I probably have a couple quotes, sorry, there are a lot of good ones because, oh, yeah, o'clock and you have a student, so, uh, 12, 30 I do, but we'll wrap up. Um, I I said, oh, his name was honeythorn gum, honeythorn gum, that's what it was first. Yeah, honeythorn. Okay, that's adorable.

Critiquing Fantasy Tropes and Characters

Speaker 2 1:31:37

That's adorable listen let's talk about gum for a second, because he is adorable like he's super cute. He's so cute, he's adorable. I don't want him in my in my legend fanfic remake, but I could have a small role I could have.

Speaker 1 1:31:51

I would have loved to have.

Speaker 2 1:31:52

Yeah, we're on. Yeah, me too, and we could have done Gump instead of Jack.

Speaker 1 1:31:59

Oh, that's true, could have been a Gump, could have been, yeah, all right. Well, there's some other thing, ok. So I put Brown Tom taking care of the unicorn laughing face and then Drunk, why? And then when Brown Tom says I knew I should have stayed home, I really had some shit against Brown Tom. It was funny. Oh, okay, okay. Although Brown Tom and Screwball on a team doesn't seem like a great idea when they split up.

Speaker 2 1:32:30

And then, what was that? Evangeline? And I did talk about that Because I was like wait, you have a character just from a character perspective. You have a character with a bow and arrow, you have a character with a sword, you have a guy with a frying pan and you have a guy who's just there.

Speaker 1 1:32:48

Why do I feel like I'd be the one with the frying pan?

Speaker 2 1:32:51

but like why? From a strategic standpoint, why would you be one of the people with the weapon?

Speaker 1 1:32:57

exactly. It was so dumb, I did not want to chatter that, guys, I didn't like that. So who would be the sword? Who would hold the sword out of you guys? Oh, if you had to pick a weapon, okay, there we go. Probably not me. I'd be happy with the frying pan. I mean, I don't like cooking. Who am I lying? I'd be running out of the way Cooking it as a weapon. Oh yeah, see, I'd just be laying on the floor crying.

Speaker 1 1:33:29

Listen, listen, listen, he it made me think of for a second. I thought about tangled, yes, because I was like frying pan. Oh, yeah, right, I don't know, frying pans are a weapon in a lot of uh, they're heavy, scary, maybe. Yeah, they are um, okay. And then I had this quote from um, I put from hot satan the dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity. Facts. That was a good one, are they Like it's so bleak, it's bleak. It's bleak. It's true, though it can it. Can I also do like how they ended the movie when they said you can't have light without darkness, because I think that's 100% true, like everybody has both. It was a little like too tied up, though, like it was very, I mean, they're all movies are like that, I guess.

Speaker 2 1:34:07

Yeah, but well, and it yeah we never saw a lady in the cottage again yeah, you never know, you never saw nell again nell was pointless, uh.

Speaker 2 1:34:17

but they because this was not a character-driven story yeah, it was, and that's what I had to like really sit with last night was like, oh, this is not a character driven story, this is an action driven story, and they really just, yeah, used characters to like get the action, like we're gonna go to a dungeon guy. Let me tell you like it was like the storyboards were like forest cave, dungeon, no, forest, cold Dungeon, dungeon, dungeon, dungeon, dungeon, yeah, forest again yeah, cold forest.

Speaker 1 1:34:54

And I thought Listen, cold forest is more like hell to me than flame. Yeah, I can cold forest.

Speaker 2 1:35:00

I see like physical, like yeah, I kept cringing. When I saw his thighs in the snow I was like that's horrible.

Speaker 1 1:35:06

Yeah, or gump in like a little diaper, I didn't know. Yeah, it reminded me of Narnia. Yeah, snow stuff it did.

Speaker 2 1:35:15

The sudden, the sudden switch. Yeah, yeah, that's what very much. And let's, let's have like a five minute, like five second conversation, cause I know we're running out of time about how many tropes were in that movie. I know how many, how it, how it took pieces from existing lore and once I read that the guy who did the screen, the screenplay, did not know anything about lore.

Speaker 1 1:35:43

He had nothing to write but other people, right, right, it made a lot of sense. Yeah, a lot of stuff just hodgepodge together Narnia, uh-huh, yeah, generic apples, oh, generic apples, even Tinkerbell, even Una being like Tinkerbell, yeah, like sassy the sassy, very yeah. Also, the way her hair looked is how mine looks when I wake up, and her hair was so funny I really like her.

Speaker 2 1:36:07

Oh, that I okay, I do. I. I don't like danny in the morning she could have been.

Speaker 1 1:36:14

Yeah, yes, yeah, you could have used her a lot more.

Speaker 2 1:36:18

There's also like part of me because I thought about that. I was like she could have like done, been a stand-in for lily, but then I was like, but then y'all would have left girlfriend like in and the day in hell, but she clearly needed love.

Speaker 1 1:36:29

So I think yeah I also thought and I wrote in my notes about nell. I was like she was really of the few female presenting characters we had in this film. She was like I don't know. It was like young beauty and then like what? I guess what you look like when you're not young and beautiful anymore. You're poor and you're frumpy and you're like I'm doing laundry too cool.

Speaker 2 1:36:52

We didn't address the fact that, like she just totally trashed her life, like they're right.

Speaker 1 1:36:57

Yeah, yeah, what the hell was that? That was weird. Yeah, she just like undid the clothesline reeve line.

Speaker 2 1:37:03

I was like what the fairies like. Again. If she had turned around and been like Lily, I I would have been like, oh, because it would have established. They tried to establish pattern with Nell. That was who Nell was. Nell was like they're trying to without having to actually have backstory. They're trying to use this character to close this information loop around. How often lily was in the woods? Yeah, she was like oh, you're like a daughter to me and I'm like why? Why is she like yeah to you? And also, where the fuck are parents?

Speaker 1 1:37:36

I know where are you. How far are you from your palace? I mean, like what's going on also?

Speaker 2 1:37:42

she has to you are. You are often in these woods, but she still has to warn you about toadstools. Yeah, still has to warn you about, yeah. Yeah, so it didn't really add up. It's not safe, but you are being permitted to just wander into the.

Speaker 1 1:37:57

Hey, the 80s though, man you know. I was I was allowed to wander a lot of places. To you guys, june Princess, are you sure I actually know, I actually know? Explain, are you sure I actually know? I'm actually not explain the unicorn, I know I wish I was. No, I'd be, I'd be the kid with the frying pan?

Speaker 2 1:38:13

I don't know. Listen, I've been seeing where I don't want to be. I don't want to be the heir to the throne, I want to be the sibling of the heir to the throne yeah, I want to be the harry that that is like my.

Speaker 1 1:38:21

That's fair, so has had the best life and the most fun.

Speaker 2 1:38:25

Yeah yeah, well, I mean, he's also deeply traumatized. But I mean, well, correct, you have no response Like that's what in medieval times? Whenever I watch these medieval stories and they have a sibling who is not in any way like the heir has already had a child, I'm like that's me, that's who I want to be right, because I'm just like I would be drunk all the time and I'd be like what are we doing?

Speaker 1 1:38:49

Where are we going? My sister, I mean, I'm the youngest and so she's always like God, you got to get away with everything, because it's like yeah.

Speaker 2 1:38:57

That's pretty much what it is. That's why I identify with it, because I'm the youngest.

Speaker 1 1:39:10

So I'm just like no, that's, yeah is in. There was this case in history where there was um, oh yeah, come over here, because they won't hear you there's a case in.

Speaker 2 1:39:14

There's a case in history sibling just got to travel all the time because he had no chance of inheriting. Hey, yeah ninth sibling.

Speaker 1 1:39:20

that's the spot. Yeah, nine yeah, that's a good take there. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I love that so much. What a great way to end this that way. Overall, I did not like the movie. I am happy that I watched it for all the reasons we talked about today. Dumb unicorns we just broke a unicorn. We just broke a panty's heart Just useless. Unicorns are never useless. When you are holding Just useless, unicorns are never useless, oh no.

Speaker 2 1:39:50

When you are holding the fate of the universe in your hands and like Horns, horns and you're a foo and you didn't, like nobody's concerned about you, like you're just romping around.

Speaker 1 1:40:06

But listen, yeah, horses are very strong. Yeah, a murder point horse. I didn't, I didn't, okay there are so many things it's okay. We all have to agree. That's why I enjoyed watching it and I'm very glad that you are here. I know it's very fun to talk about. It's like a fun circle back. That's about the hot state. Oh, a hundred. Yeah. If you're here for that, she's here for that. I am here for that. Who's not here for that? Who's not? We would like to hear from you.

Speaker 2 1:40:31

No, we wouldn't. I'm proud of us because this was actually a very kink light episode. It was a kink light Very.

Speaker 1 1:40:37

Well, I mean to write your. Yeah, that's it. Wait on our podcast. No, save it for yourself. Save it. There you go. My thing's telling me my power died. There's our sign. Well, thank you again. Thank you and thank you for listening. Please make sure you're reviewing us wherever you listen to podcasts. Share us on social media. That's how we got to 5,000 downloads. So, thank you, guys, so much, and we'll see you on our next episode. Bye, everybody, bye.