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Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial co-hosts Dani and Katie talk about their analog childhoods, digital adulthoods and everything in between. If you love 1980's and 1990's pop culture content, this is the podcast for you!
Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial Girl Summer: Flowers in the Attic Re-Read
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What happens when you revisit a deeply controversial novel with adult eyes? For this Xennial Girl Summer book pick, Dani and Katie dive into the dark world of VC Andrews' "Flowers in the Attic."
Have you read "Flowers in the Attic"? We'd love to hear your experiences with this cultural touchstone in the comments!
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Welcome to Generation In Between
Speaker 1Hello, hello listeners, and welcome back to Generation In Between, a Zennial podcast. And you are here for our second installment of our book component of Zennial.
Speaker 2Girl.
Speaker 1Summer Coming at you and, wow, do we have a different book? If you listen to our first book segment, it was Are you there, goddess Me, margaret, by Judy Blume. Not too long of a book and, just you know, a little bit different, different but similar thematically on some things.
Speaker 2Well, okay, sort of, but let's tell them what we're doing today. Why don't you tell them? Alright, everyone, we are going to talk today about the zennial classic VC Andrews wrote, called flowers in the attic. On my way here, I was talking to my sister on the phone and I told her what we were about to do and I was like we're about to talk about flowers in the attic? And she went oh my God, yeah, because I read this at an early age, because my sister had it. Cause, listeners, if you're new here, I have a sister who's seven years older than me, so totally in Gen X, um, and I was just going to room and steal shit. So I was a big reader I still am and so I would go Ooh, what's this book? And the cover was super cool. Have you seen pictures of the old cover?
Speaker 1Yeah, with like the girl in the window and it was like, it was like a cutout.
Speaker 2Yeah, and man so anyway that's a cool cover, so flowers in the attic. So, for those of you who have no idea about this book and what we're going to talk about, buckle up, yeah. And for those of you who've been there, get ready to revisit some shit from grown-up eyes now, yeah, it's different than I remembered and we'll get interesting and and just to like, put us on the right playing field here.
Speaker 1This is the first time I've read this book oh, that's right, yeah, yeah, katie's never read it. Only adult eyes for this one.
Speaker 2This is wild so much of our zennial girl. Summer is stuff katie's never read or seen.
Speaker 1Well, okay. So I had read Are you there, God?
Speaker 2Oh true.
Speaker 1But I had not seen Porky's Right and then I hadn't read this one Right and you haven't read Forever.
Speaker 2I haven't read Forever and you haven't. Kaleidoscope was my pick.
Speaker 1Oh, you did read Kaleidoscope, yeah that was my pick. And then what are the other movies? American Pie I've seen Fast Times at Ridgemont High.
Speaker 2I've seen.
Speaker 1Goonies. I have not seen Goonies. See, yeah, you're going to love Goonies. I'm excited about it. I think you might I think I will. I don't.
Speaker 2You probably won't like Fast Times, but whatever.
Speaker 2Okay, that's okay, we'll get there when we get there summary, the official summary of Flowers in the Attic by VC Andrews. And then I'm going to do like we did for Are you there? Got it to Me, margaret? Give you a few little like tidbits. History there wasn't a whole lot. Like we had a whole lot about Judy Blume. I didn't have super a lot. And then we're just going to talk about the book. Yeah, there's a lot to discuss. Okay, here we go.
Introducing Flowers in the Attic
Speaker 2At the top of the stairs, there are four secrets hidden. Blonde, beautiful, innocent and struggling to stay alive. They were a perfect family, golden and carefree, until a heartbreaking tragedy shattered their happiness. Now, for the sake of an inheritance that will ensure their future, the children must be hidden away out of sight, as if they never existed, Kept on the top floor of their grandmother's vast mansion. Their loving mother assures them it will be just for a little while, but it's brutal. Days swell into agonizing months and years. Kathy, chris and twins Corey and Carrie, realized their survival is at the mercy of their cruel and superstitious grandmother and this cramped and helpless world, maybe the only one they ever know, yep.
Speaker 1There it is. That was a really more thorough summary than I feel like we usually have. Oh well, I didn't write it. I'm just saying there's a lot going on there. I liked it I did not write that.
Speaker 2I don't know where I got it from, probably somewhere in those little sources I put there, yeah, yeah, but anyway. So, like I said, this was written. Oh hold on, guys, my laptop. Okay, literally it's about. It's giving me problems again, y'all, I am cursed. Swear to God, I'm cursed.
Speaker 1We both need laptops.
Speaker 2No, I just got this. Oh Remember, yeah, anyway, it's fine.
Speaker 1I need a laptop. Yeah, universe, I'm telling you not for lack of trying. I've been shopping and I there's just, they're all expensive and there's so many that I get overwhelmed and I stopped shopping. And then the next day I'm like oh, I still need a laptop. Yeah, anyway, we'll get there, okay.
Speaker 2Anyway. So flowers in the attic was written by VC Andrews. It was published in 1979. Okay, and it's actually the first book in a whole series about the Dahlen Ganger family. Okay.
Speaker 1That's how I think you say the name Dahlen Ganger. Well, I listened to it on audio, on audio. Yeah, dahlen Ganger Dahlen.
Speaker 2Ganger. Okay, it was twice adapted into films. One was in 1987, which I remember watching on TV again long before I needed to and then in 2014, they did one on Lifetime. Heather Graham was the mom, oh yeah, and somebody else was the grandma. I didn't go into too much on the movies, I just wanted to talk about the book. Oh, was it Ellen Burstyn. It may have been.
Speaker 1Okay, may have been. I think I read that somewhere. I didn't watch it. I'm pretty sure I didn't watch that one. Yeah, I watched the 1987 one, the original movie Okay.
Speaker 2The book was also adapted into a stage play by VC Andrews ghostwriter, who we'll talk more about later. His name is Andrew Niederman. It was released in 2014. And in 2015, it premiered on stage in New Orleans.
Speaker 1Oh, wow.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, which this probably would be a very interesting stage adaptation, I think. I mean it would get a little weird, but I think it'd be good. Yeah, I mean, depending on adaptation wise, how you, how you go about it. Um, this actually was VC Andrews debut novel. Wow, yeah, and it was a banger Cause she made bank. It was super popular and it remains so and it's sold over 40 million copies. Dang Right.
Speaker 2Wow, yeah so many Okay, and I think, yeah, so many okay. And I think probably one of the reasons it remains popular is because it's so controversial. I agree that's I mean you ban a book. That's how you're gonna get people reading it and it's, it is well written.
Speaker 1It is we'll get into like the topic, the subject matter and stuff, but like the writing is quite good. Oh yeah, yeah, she's a great writer.
Speaker 2I forgot that about this book, that it was so well written. Um. So here are the other books in the series, because it takes. I don't want to. I mean, should we just have spoilers?
Speaker 1Because, like this, is an old book. This is an old book and I think we should just have spoilers.
Speaker 2Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2So, the books in the series that come after take place, like after their escape, okay, and now I have not read any of them after take place, like after their escape, okay, and now I have not read any of them. I kind of want to now because I'm like kind of curious, and then some of them that came out later that her ghostwriter wrote are like prequels. Oh, okay, but these in the series Petals on the Wind came out in 1980. If there Be Thorns came out in 81. Seeds of Yesterday came out in 84. And Garden of Shadows came out in 81. Seeds of yesterday came out in 84 and garden of shadows came out in 86. Um, she passed away in 87. So, and then her ghostwriter took over, oh, she passed away in 87.
Speaker 2Yeah, In the eighties.
Speaker 2Um, I think we'll get there in a minute but, she passed away and then her ghostwriter took over and wrote new books in 2014 through 2020. Okay, I don't know if he's still doing it, but that's that's the most recent stuff I found. Um so back to flowers in the attic. She was trying to pitch this in 1978 and in her pitch letter she described the novel as a fictionalized version of a true story. What, yeah, About real children who struggled to survive under almost unendurable circumstances? Basically, a horror story. That's what she said.
Speaker 1But she didn't say it was like her story.
Speaker 2She just said it was a true story of someone based on one she always claimed that the story um, she drew it from the life story of one of her doctors, not her own, and she had lots of health problems, which we'll talk about in a second. I see, Okay, so she always said that it was a story that someone told her. One of her doctors told her Dang.
Speaker 1Yeah, about himself. Yeah, oh, wow, right which?
Speaker 2would make sense. We know Chris goes on to be a doctor.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah, which would you know chris, because chris wanted to be a doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Now, whether that's true or not, who knows? But there you go.
Speaker 2it gives it some intrigue. It does, for sure. I mean, I thought that was super interesting and okay. So her name, her name she was born with, was actually cleo virginia andrews. So she switched the c and the v, okay, and C Andrews, but she was known as VC Andrews in the US to appeal to a male audience, okay, but in the UK she's always been known as Virginia.
Speaker 1Interesting. Virginia Andrews, mm-hmm. Okay, I don't know, maybe because I already knew what this book was and every memory I have of this book. I just always knew it was written by a woman, right. Well, I mean she wasn't being as like secretive about it. No, I mean you can put your initials on stuff, I mean that's totally fine. It was just, I guess. I just never assumed she was a guy.
Speaker 1Because of that, like the vc, oh, I was like you know, but but also, like I, my whole frame of mind around it. I probably just always knew it was written by a woman, well, and there was probably a picture of her on the back or whatever you know, but she had a lot of like myths that surrounded her.
Speaker 2The first one was people did think that this story was based on her life because she did have some weird like relationship with her mom and stuff. But also she had some other stuff, so I'll give you these. Um, a New York times obituary said that she kept her age secret her whole life and she was believed to be in her late forties or early fifties when she died. But she never really told people her factual age. I wonder why. Well, I mean we know women who do that.
Speaker 1Yeah, I can think of at least three, and I wonder why.
Speaker 2But I think it's because women have unfair societal expectations placed upon you. Yeah, and I personally am fine with my age, I have no problem with that. But I don't judge people Right Because our society is, they're assholes. Yeah, patriarchy, okay, yes, um, a people magazine profile in 1980. Um, this is all quoted from that article. Um, she spent most of her life as an invalid, actually in Portsmouth, virginia.
Speaker 2Uh, she had progressive arthritis and as Katie has arthritis and you know how, like there's all different kinds and all different levels, but hers got really, really bad. So she had it as like a young, young, young person, yeah and um she had to stand at her desk to write, cause sitting down was too uncomfortable, which you could probably relate to Um, and she said herself in 85 that her handicap began.
Speaker 2That was her words, not mine. When she was coming downstairs at school and her heel caught on something, she fell forward and twisted to catch the banister and later the doctors found the twist had been very violent. It tore the membrane on her hip and started little bone spurs and then since then it progressed.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what happened to me when I tore my meniscus Right, cause I was already. I mean, I tore my meniscus when I was 38 or 39. That's still young, that's still young. But I guess what I'm saying is I was already, you know, feeling stiffness and stuff, so it wasn't like out of nowhere, but it did go from like 10 to a hundred overnight. And the doctor kind of told me the same thing, similar, not necessarily the bone spurs, but that, um, essentially it flooded all my joints and since I was already like struggling with arthritis, that it it just like progressed it much faster.
Speaker 2It's almost like it lit a match.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, like it, it triggered the rest of it. Well, cause, your whole body's connected, correct. So one thing is going to affect everything else.
Speaker 1Exactly Yep.
VC Andrews: The Author Behind the Controversy
Speaker 2So, I feel that yeah, so that was kind of her um, unfortunately, her journey. And she said one. A newspaper said once that she was paralyzed and it made her angry because she's like, I'm not paralyzed. And she said this they think that if you're in a wheelchair you're paralyzed, or else you would be up on your feet and I do walk, but since they don't see me walk, they don't think I can.
Speaker 2Yeah, and you should never assume, should never assume, and also you should never assume that people who do walk don't need to use wheelchairs sometimes either Right or some sort of mobile help for their mobility from time to time. So I can understand her frustration with that. Like I'm not paralyzed, but like also I don't have to give you my whole medical background if I don't want to. Also that.
Speaker 1Right, because Nanya, like, unless I tell you in an interview that I'm paralyzed, you shouldn't print that I am Right.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, correct, okay. So that's kind of a little background about her I will go to. I will tell you this.
Speaker 1So did she die because of her? No, okay, that's why I'll just go ahead. I'm going to jump ahead.
Speaker 2I'm scared. Katie's like Okay, that's why I'll just go ahead.
Speaker 1I'm going to jump ahead. Oh my God, what I mean. It's really painful. I'm pretty sure you don't die from arthritis.
Speaker 2Okay, well, I'm also pretty sure, but let's hear the real story. I think it can make you susceptible to injuries and other things. Yeah, you're more at risk, but I don't think it's a fatal diagnosis. I don't think so either. Okay, so she died in 86 of breast cancer. Okay, which is really sad. And that same year, andrew Niederman, who I mentioned before, he actually published some of his own books at the time.
Speaker 2One you may know is the Devil's Advocate, which was made into a movie with Al Pacino and Keanu Reeves and Charlize Theron, remember? Okay, yes, yeah. I was like remember that movie? I do, I love that movie. Anyway, he was approached by wait, did I say? Is his name Andrew Niederman? Hold on, let me, I'm going to correct myself, live, because I always be saying something wrong. Hold on, yeah, his name was.
Speaker 1Andrew, okay.
Speaker 2Because you were thinking maybe you messed up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but that's his name. Okay, that is his name, andrew Niederman. Okay, he was approached by VC Andrews agent. His name is Anita Diamant, who also is an author, by the way. She is, um, I swear. I have read books by her and now my brain has blinked to be continued. Um, so, interestingly enough, he had never read her books. Get this, you're going to love this. But his wife was a fan, and he said he'd also been a high school teacher, so he was familiar with teenage girls.
Speaker 1Hmm, these are his qualifications. Yes, his wife read the books and he's taught teenage girls. Yes, okay.
Speaker 2Wow, what a genius fit. So, anyway, when the um, the agent asked him to finish the flowers, the attic prequel garden of shadows, because she had been, she had already started writing it. So they had to find somebody to finish it. Okay, um, he said yes. Now I don't know why they asked him. I don't know how they found him.
Speaker 2I don't know I mean, I guess maybe his writing style I haven't read anything by him is similar I don't know, but whatever it is um, he felt he was qualified, even though he'd never read it, because, uh, osmosis.
Speaker 1I don't know. I almost need to like read one of them then just to see like was it a good fit?
Speaker 2I'm thinking I may have read devil's advocate back in the day when it came. The movie came out because I used to love to do that, but I don't remember it enough to say I for sure did okay, but anyway, so that's just basically all the little tidbits I have about her. I mean, the book was super controversial, as we know.
Speaker 2I mean we'll go ahead and talk about it now because of the incest that's in the book, yep, and not just between the brother and the sister, yeah, that happened parents, but the the parent, which that one's tricky, yeah, because it was her half uncle, but still blood relation, yes, so that one I wasn't as freaked out about because I was like well, in like victorian times yeah, like marry their first cousin and she actually says that to the kids like her explanation was super fucking weird. Yeah, it was kind of weird and she was like well, in some societies, you know, even people who are closer in blood relations get married. This is not. This is paraphrasing.
Speaker 1But basically she said that and.
Speaker 2I was like um okay, that's weird.
Speaker 1Yeah, I also wondered, but then it got shot down later in the book when I was listening. I was like because they mention um, so the dad of the kids who end up locked in the attic. So it's confusing because his name is christopher, right, and the son's name is christopher. Well, dad, christopher is the half uncle, yes, but they tell this story about how his mom was like this young, young woman who, like they kind of say, was sort of a gold digger because the grandfather was about to die when she had the kid. And I actually wondered. I was like I wonder if they're related at all, like yeah, maybe it wasn't his kid, maybe it wasn't.
Speaker 1But then they talk about how much they looked alike how much the grandfather, the now grandfather, who that would have been his younger, younger brother, the half uncle, how much they looked alike. So then I was like, okay, maybe it really was.
Speaker 2Yeah, I don't know. I mean yeah, anyway, so this was a super controversial book. It was banned. I thought I had wrote a bunch of stuff about it being banned, but I think I didn't, because it was like this obvious.
Speaker 1It's just so much yeah, yeah, yeah it was just and it was just.
Speaker 2it's just obvious, Like it was. It's the common story of banned books. You ban them and it makes teenagers want to read them. Absolutely, it's just the same. It's that's. That's just the way it is. That's the way the teenage brain works and, honestly, I kind of am that way too. Still, as a 44 year old lady.
Speaker 1I am curious.
Speaker 2You tell me like it's like the whole red button theory it was like don't touch the button, don't touch the button, don't you touch that button. Then you just want to touch it, yeah.
Speaker 1Or even in like Beauty and the Beast when he's like. Never go in the West Wing, when does she go? What's in the West.
Speaker 2Wing.
Speaker 1Fucking.
Speaker 2West Wing yeah, exactly, scary noise at night. You're like I gotta just go see it. Yeah, me too. And then you die. I haven't died yet, but me either. But I mean in horror, that is how you could.
Speaker 1Yes, in horror movies, in horror movies, yeah, um so, oddly enough, I couldn't find a whole lot of discussion questions. Okay, I I have a few like overarching thoughts, so, okay, start with those. This one this is kind of heavy.
Speaker 1I think I wouldn't have picked up on as a younger person reading it, but I thought that the book did a good job of really portraying the innocence of children oh great and the easy ways that they're manipulated, particularly in pursuit of love from their parents, from the adults in their lives. Because it was like every time Kathy because we hear this through her eyes she's the narrator, so she's 12, I think when the book starts she's the one sort of questioning the mom to her face a lot, but then the mom always has like an answer. That's never a great answer, but Kathy wants to believe it, right, and I think it just really was heartbreaking to me because obviously this is an extreme story but like, things like this do happen to children, or children are taken advantage of and just that like or abused or or neglected or um, like, um, negligence, like not paid attention to, and just how much children crave that.
Speaker 1And I just thought the book that was the most heartbreaking part to me was the way that, like they, they didn't need all the material stuff and all the wealth. And I think there's even a part where Kathy's like she could like have gotten a job, you know, selling shoes at a department store, and we could live in a box, but at least we would be together and like that's what kids want.
Speaker 2Well, and I think you realize and this I don't think I picked up on when I was younger Definitely that, um, you know instantly that the grandma's fucking crazy. You don't realize the mom is for a while, yep, and I thought it was interesting to watch her progression with her mental health. Yep, because she was, I feel like maybe when she left that home and left that awful situation, and her and her spouse whether it was whatever familial or not, they tried really hard to not have that Like their house was one of love, yeah, or they well, yeah, I think it was a parents of love, I don't know, I don't know. And then she's back in that environment with both her parents. She gets this shit beat out of her by her dad at least once, we don't know if it's more. And then her mom's be right here.
Speaker 2So it's like it was interesting to me to watch that progression of her. Like I'm going to get you out of here, I'm going to. And then she's very slowly gives up. Yep, she's just because it's hard. It's hard, yep, she, just because it's hard. It's hard, yeah, and she can. She finds a way to disassociate so strongly that she just eventually acts like her kids aren't there at all Yep or and then tries to kill them.
Speaker 1Yeah yeah, that was shocking, okay.
Speaker 2I forgot about that part and I was almost done with the book and I wasn't quite done yet. But I was like I'm going to go ahead and do the research on this and just get some tidbits and I read that I've like spoiled it for myself and I was like shit. I forgot that happened. I would have been surprised in the book because I forgot. Yeah, I don't know how I knew that one of them died. I just couldn't remember how or why.
Speaker 1Yeah, so one of the younger twins, the little boy Corey. Yeah, corey Gets sick, really, really sick, and in the end is poisoned. Well that's why he's sick.
Speaker 2I realize he was slowly being poisoned, as they all were, but he had more because the girl wasn't eating, kathy wasn't eating and Chris was giving his to him.
Speaker 1Yeah, so he had enough for it to kill him. Yeah, and you assume it's the grandmother Right, but it was the mom you find out at the end.
The Dahlen Ganger Family Tragedy
Speaker 1Because? So the whole premise which you've probably read it if you haven't, and you're just hearing this for the first time the whole premise is that when the dad dies, they go to the grandparents who have already disowned them, disinherited them, didn't know about the four kids, and the mom says you have to, kind of like, hide out in this attic until I can get my father to accept that you're alive, that we need to be back in his life, and it's supposed to be a day, and that's supposed to be a week and, as danny mentioned, it ends up being years yeah, um, and there's always a reason.
Speaker 1And then you sort of get that, like it reminded me kind of of stockholm syndrome in a way, where, like Kathy uses the word imprisoned a few times, but then her mom's always kind of able to talk her out of it, but like the meantime she's bringing them gifts and every time they question how long it's going to take she has a reason, well, and she gaslights them like currying, yeah.
Speaker 2And then Chris wants, he like worships his mom, which happens with little boys all the time, not in my house.
Speaker 1Because he's 14 when the book starts and he has.
Speaker 2He just thinks his mother is flawless, and so whenever she says something, he wants to believe it. And kathy is pissed the whole time. Yeah, the whole time.
Speaker 1Um, and she's the only one who really says something back yeah, and the mom ends up like physically, like hitting chris at some point and chris immediately like forgives her, but kathy, it's almost like she's seen that side kathy. First I thought she hits chris. She hit him across the cheeks. When at the party she hit him, unless there were two parts where she hit. She smacked him on one cheek and then she smacked him on another when he came back from the sneaking around the halls at the christmas party wasn't there right, so he's sneaking around.
Speaker 1She comes and wakes up kathy. I wonder if the audiobook has like rewriting or something.
Speaker 2No, it's me.
Speaker 1So she, okay. So they get out for the first time the whole time they've been there it's months at this point and the mom shows them a hiding spot where they can watch this Christmas party and they go back. But he explores the house and the mom comes to check on them and he's not there, that's right, you're right, but that's right, you're right, you're right, right. So that part okay, that part right, but that's the first time that she yes, she shakes kathy like where is?
Speaker 2he, where is he? Where is he? And then when? He walks in she's, she hits him I remember when I was a kid how frustrated I was that they didn't just run. Yeah, I was so frustrated the whole time. This time time I was like, okay, I get it. Like what the fuck are they going to do? Like, they got these little when do they run to? Especially with the twins.
Speaker 1What are you going to do? And you can't leave them behind, and the grandmother's already been physically abusive to them, right? So you're leaving them behind. And I thought it was interesting really, from the time that they're in the attic for the whole book, kathy refers to them as our twins. I know.
Speaker 2Like she's like our twins aren't growing like they should, Well, and she talks about it like how they started taking on the role of parents.
Speaker 1Yeah, they had to. I know, I mean to, you know.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean okay. Well, before I ask any of these questions, I don't have that many. Did you like the book?
Speaker 1I did like the book, even though it's heavy. I mean, it's a heavy.
Speaker 2It was written really well Dark book but it's kind of a.
Speaker 1I was like I bet Katie probably does like this because it is true crime-esque Like well, there's a story of the woman I want to say in Sweden I meant to look this up before I'm on here that like recently that her father built recently, meaning in the last five or six years built like, was abusive to her growing up, whatever built something in his basement he had to go through several sections to get to and kept her there. She had children in there there, no, and it was only like I think. So it was only like four feet tall or something and the woman was like almost six feet tall anyway, lived in the house with his wife the whole time would take them like food and stuff. What they finally got out. I'm gonna send you a link to this. I don't want it. And he had told and people said to the wife you didn't notice that, hello, where did you think your daughter went? But he had just said she ran off. So the mom just thought she had run off.
Speaker 2She was in there for years.
Speaker 1I don't want to know. I mean, this is within the last five or six years. Oh my God, I can't. So that's what I'm saying. Like you read this book and you go this is like I said, this is very extreme, but you can pull some nuggets out of it. But then I remembered that story, the true, true crime story, and I was like, yeah, like this actually happens to people, I'm like, yeah, that's why I can't do true crime guys.
Speaker 2Yeah, I this book. Um, I think it's a. It's very well written. I do think it's a really interesting story. It's not an easy read, no, and I was reading this at a. Really it's been a really heavy time. I don't want to talk about any of it, right? Now this is probably not a great um, but I was like, well, this is a shitty book to read right now when everything's really heavy and like everything's a lot.
Speaker 1It's not really an escape because you're going through stuff.
Speaker 2It's a stressful book, like I was stressed out anyway, that I felt even more stressed because you do feel tension the whole time, the whole time Like the whole time you do not like, you're like this, like you don't relax, especially when they start escaping and you're like OK, this is it, this is it. And it's not. And then the kids get sick and then you're like what is happening? And then the mom gets remarried and you're like this is it? And then it's not. Yeah, she's a bag of trash.
Speaker 1She is Okay, so you did like the book.
Speaker 2I did like it. I did like it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I really was intrigued the whole time. I did listen to really all of it. Mina Suvari was the narrator. She was great. I bet she was really good, it's a 15 hour audio book. You zoom it up.
Speaker 1I started on one and a half, but it was too fast for me oh really yeah, just because um mina talks kind of fast anyway, and so I felt like it was just like, like it was too much, like that. So I think I ended up at like 1.3 or something like that, and I think it took me um closer to 11 hours to listen when I do, I am crazy.
Speaker 2I listened to it at like 2.0.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think that would have been too fast for this one, I think because I liked it so much too. Oh, you couldn't absorb it. I didn't. I wanted to have that moment to like yeah, and even at what I was listening to, there was once or twice well, more than once or twice, it was freaking 11 hours. Several times that I did go back and re-listen to a part or two, in case I, if I just got distracted for a second or whatever.
Speaker 1someone asked me a question. I'm like wait, what did they say? So that to me is like oh, I liked this book. Yeah, cause I didn't want to miss anything.
Speaker 2You didn't want to skip it. Yeah, and you know what you can listen to podcasts faster too. I wonder if anybody listens to us on speed.
Speaker 1Lindsay does what Lindsay said she listens to us at 1.5 and it sounds normal. It sounds like us in real life. You might sound crazy. I think she says it sounds like us in real life. That's what she said. What I don't feel like we're fast talkers, I don't know.
Speaker 2I mean, I'm from South Louisiana. We don't do nothing fast Except pop up on a beer and eat some food.
Speaker 1We do that quick, we do that fast. Yeah, but you're from the midwest y'all ain't fast either what you talking about. We are not. We pop open beers fast though, yeah, so so there you go, so our mouths be popping, our mouths be popping, all right, whatever, I will say one thing I texted you. We don't talk a lot about episode stuff via text, because we try to save it but.
Speaker 1But when I was reading the part, really at the beginning, where the father's in the terrible accident and she's 12 and then knowing when your father passed and then everything you're going through right now with grief in your family. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe like Dani's reading this book right now. And so I texted her and I said how old were you when you read this the first time? And I think you said like 10 or 11.
Speaker 2I think it was before my dad passed. Yeah, I think, because, like I said, my sister is seven years older than me and this book came out in 80,. What did it come out? 80? 79. So you know, I'm sure it was on her shelf for a long time and I was. I was a voracious reader and I would just grab books. I mean, I was reading Stephen King in middle school yeah.
Speaker 1Probably before that I would. I would guess you read it before but maybe not.
Speaker 2I may not have, because I read a lot. I mean I don't think it. I don't think it would have imprinted that. Oh gosh, that's the least thing in the book that I remembered Interesting.
Speaker 1Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2I don't know.
Speaker 1And I mean it's not funny, but the writing when they come to tell them because it's his birthday yeah, 36, right, I think 36 birthday and so the mom has this party and there's tons of people at the house waiting and he's not there, and then he's not there, and then he's not there, and then, finally, it's two state troopers that show up, but the way they describe it they're like this is totally paraphrasing, by the way, but it's like someone ran into him, but then the car also flipped oh yeah, but then it caught on fire.
Speaker 1Yeah, they were like and he would have survived that, but then the car, yes, but then after the car flipped it, the whole thing caught fire and he would have survived that, but they couldn't break the window and I was like, what the hell like? Why are they saying? All that that part was yeah, and it was well written, but it was like that was oh my god not everybody's listening.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, that was a lot.
Speaker 1That was a lot and I felt stressed for the mom. Obviously, as the book goes on, she does not be, she falls from being a sympathetic character, but like at the beginning, where they're still in their house and she's up late with like the bills and like being anxious and stuff, I just thought, oof, I feel that. And then, um, I really thought the way she explained what they owned and what they didn't was really well written, because she's like it's not that we're poor, right, it's that we planned a life based on future wealth, which is like the American story. Yeah, she's like. And we Now it's done we bet on future wealth when we bought this house, when we got our cars, the furniture, the whatever, and now we don't. It's not coming in.
Speaker 2Well, and you know, I did feel for her because that I that is having the rug ripped from under you, especially because, number one, she has no education, she has no training Right, she has, she's been a mom and a wife and she was okay with that and that's what she planned on doing for the rest of her life. And then, all of a sudden and I can see why she thought her only option was to go back. Yeah, because we have to remember the time period it was two.
Speaker 1It was supposed to be in 57. Yeah, in the 50s it was too.
Speaker 2It was supposed to be in 57. Yeah, in the 50s? I think yeah, so when it started there weren't a lot of well-provided opportunities for women to support their families, much less for children.
Speaker 1Yeah, and when you're already in the middle of it too, and you already.
Speaker 2It's not like you're a young woman just getting on your path.
Speaker 1Right, you already own all the things that are expensive, right, and the children that you have to also take care of while you're trying to get the money for the things. Like, there's no like side side hustles on the Internet back in 1957. Well, and you?
Speaker 2have no one to help you with child care either, because they didn't have family, obviously, right. So that's a huge thing when you have four children, yeah, so you know, I think I had more sympathy for that as an adult than I did as a kid. Sure, especially having to remind myself reading it now, like okay, remember the time period this was.
Speaker 1Yes, yeah, because I think too, if I had read this as a young person totally hypothesizing because I didn't I think I would have been like just get a job right. Yes, because I've had a job since I was 14, just get a job. But like when I was that young, who you're supporting? No, who am I supporting? And it's like, yeah, you know, yeah. So I think I had sympathy for that too that she probably didn't feel like there was anywhere else she could go. And I mean, you know, maybe there were friends, maybe there was whatever, I don't know, but she really felt like that.
Speaker 2But you feel stuck, and then you realize later also, she is not mentally well.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think another thing when I was talking about, like the treatment of children and the vulnerabilities of children, I think this book does a good job of showing trauma and how trauma imprints you and the frustration of what you already spoke about, which is that she escaped that setting and was able to I'm not going to say like shed the trauma Cause, like it's always there, but she was able to step outside of it because she wasn't entrenched in it, and take that step back. I mean, I think, like for me, when I was no longer involved in organized religion, I was able to be like, oh, like I feel differently because I was out of it. Like I feel differently because I was out of it, but if I was thrown back into it again for whatever reason, even by choice, I would maybe cycle back.
Speaker 2So I think, for her. I think they did a good job of sort of showing that environment. The environment of trauma is there and it's weird because okay, for those of you that don't know my mom passed away a couple weeks ago. I talked about her being in the hospital on a few episodes back, um, and I I did have not have the best childhood, not because I mean my mom and I did not have the best relationship at all times, um, but there were a lot of things that happened in my hometown. I just don't. I don't go back there a lot. It's not a place of a lot of happy memories for me, it's a lot. My dad's buried there.
Children's Innocence and Manipulation
Speaker 2Like when I left there and I had to come back for a little bit, um, after I graduated college, it was awful. I was like, what am I doing back here? And then I had to come back again for a few months later and I just anyway, your body remembers, like I say this because whether you have, I mean guys, I haven't I don't remember even the last time I was back in my hometown. It's been at least five years, probably. Like I think 2017 was the last time I was there as my sister and I were in our rental car. I was there as my sister and I were in our rental car driving over Lake Pontchartrain from New Orleans and to Slidell. I literally started sweating. I started feeling nauseous and I thought it was because my blood sugar was low, which it probably was.
Speaker 1It may have been a little bit of that.
Speaker 2but I was like, oh my God, I just feel awful. I was like Tara, I got to get some like I don't, even it was once we got to the hotel and I got a snack and I, I was like Tara, I got to get something Like I don't, even it was once we got to the hotel and I got a snack and I I was like that was like almost an immediate reaction of knowing where I was going and being like like well it was.
Speaker 2I can't even explain how weird that is, but I was thinking about that when I was reading the book, cause I think I started this fucking airplane, I don't know. Oh, I know y'all, I know. Anyway, I think I was thinking about that because I thought about her when they were walking from the train station in the middle of the night or whatever, and I'm like, and it said something about like her face and I'm and I'm like that her body was probably on that walk like instantly, like back, yep.
Speaker 1Like she knew. She, being the mom, knew what was coming, what she was going into and, like your body, remembers, there's a book called um.
Speaker 2Your body keeps the score. Yeah, I haven't read it?
Speaker 1I haven't either, but it's amazing. I know it's on my shelf.
Speaker 2My sister gave it to me like two years ago and I haven't read it. I haven't either, but it's amazing. I know it's on my shelf. My sister gave it to me like two years ago and I haven't. We should read it.
Speaker 1Maybe we should read it. Well, not so, I'm not ready. I ain't ready. At some point, girl, I gotta wait. But anyway, ever since I've heard that phrase and heard about that book that you're talking about, I've noticed little things in my life too, yeah, where I'm like why am I acting like that?
Speaker 2Or why am I?
Speaker 1having. I mean obviously there's body language.
Speaker 1We all kind of understand the basic science of that, but I mean even beyond that like the sweating, or the increased heart rate, or the avoidance of something, whether it's a place or an activity or something, and like on the surface, I don't know why. Right and now I will think well, maybe I should think about this. Yeah, because this is based on something. Yeah, like in the moment, right now, there's nothing negative happening to me, so why am I having a negative reaction? Yeah, so I mean, it's that the way that the trauma was sort of built in, I thought was written, written well, as much as it sucks Like it was written Well.
Speaker 2I thought it was written well too. Um, I'm going to look at some of these questions.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, I'll I'll a book club. I mean, we already talked about some of that, okay, Escaping.
Speaker 2We see some of this. We already talked some of this. Very okay. One of the questions was did their mother ever love them? If so, how and why did her feelings change? I think she always did. I think she just didn't know again, when you have underlying untreated mental health issues, if like that affects everything. So I do think she loved them and care for them. She just didn't know how to human in a positive way. I agree Right, and I think that's because I don't know how much of that is just her trauma that she shut out and then relived, or how much of that is like a biological thing.
Speaker 1I'd like I don't know and I think when you use the word dissociate earlier, that was perfect. Oh yeah, because she was compartmentalizing. It was almost as if the trauma, slash grief from losing her husband, slash guilt, got to be so much that you said it was hard. So she was able to somehow compartmentalize that and live her life without them.
Speaker 2It's interesting because military people are really really good at compartmentalizing because they have to. People are really really good at compartmentalizing because they have to like when you're in a war zone or you're flying a plane in a dangerous situation, you have to shut like be able to shut off your fear receptors or whatever that they have a hard time in real life Sometimes not compartmentalizing.
Speaker 1Okay, Makes sense so and also disassociating.
Speaker 2I always thought I wasn't good at disassociating, but guys, I'm great at it.
Speaker 1Lesson learned, okay. So when did you discover this hidden talent?
Speaker 2Well, when my mom was sick, she was in the hospital for over three weeks and it was. I don't want to go into the details of it, but it was like a back and forth thing and Katie knows she.
Speaker 2You know it was. It was very stressful. My body has been in like high stress for over probably two months now, like I've just not not been stressed. And um, my sister and I would text multiple times a day, you know, and she'd be like, how are you doing? I was like I'm great, I'm just disassociating right now by watching whatever on TV, or I'm disassociating by eating candy. By the way, I'm also a huge emotional eater. Yeah, hey, huge, you got to get through some huge. And being in Louisiana for emotional eating is a plus. And being in Louisiana for emotional eating is a plus. Now I am still bloated All that's been two weeks.
Speaker 2I'm still bloated, like I was getting dressed yesterday I was like what is going on with my clothes. I was like oh, yeah, yeah, um. But anyway, I realized, like I am good at disassociating from negative feelings. If I can feel my body start feeling something yucky, um, I just I don't know. It's weird. I always thought I was really bad at it because I have like attention focus problems, but that's different. That's different. That is different than disassociating.
Speaker 1And I was compartmentalizing and all the things, yeah.
Speaker 2Because I can't make myself like, I can't switch it on and off, like if I'm having problems sleeping, right, I have, I have like anxiety, insomnia. I can't compartmentalize and shut down my brain, right, but in other situations I can just be like nope, not talking.
Speaker 1Well, that's like you were telling us, like you've driven people to the emergency room, oh yeah, and been like cool as a cucumber, and they're like literally screaming in pain and you were like able to do it. Which?
Speaker 2is not like me guys, Like I am.
Speaker 1It's weird, and I was. It's almost like the higher the stress, the more you are able to Maybe.
Speaker 2Easily dissociate? I don't Well, unless they're snakes.
Speaker 1Unless it's snakes, which is the highest level threat stress of all.
Speaker 2Anyway, I don't know why we're talking. Oh, because we're talking about the mob disassociating. Because I think she was really good at it in her house, because she probably did it her whole life there. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's definitely. She's definitely nuanced. Of course she's like a quote unquote villain, but not in the way that the grandmother was like you said. Right, the grandmother comes out, yeah.
Speaker 2Even the grandmother had something Like that's the thing that's shitty about humans is that nobody is all good and all bad. Right, that's the shitty thing. She had her moments. You know you can't all the way Most of the time. Most of the time say well, you're just a hundred percent disgusting and she did try and kill her kid. That's pretty horrible. That's pretty bad, but there were times that she was super loving before they got to the house. So, like you know what I mean. Yeah, I don't know, it's super it's.
Speaker 1That's why this book I think was good is there was plenty of layers to peel back and undo for all of them being overly self-righteous about sexual things and being unrealistic about how you should feel at a certain age, or nudity or whatever. How that backfires, Because when you suppress those things then unhealthy behaviors surrounding them or thought patterns emerge.
Speaker 2but the interesting thing was the mom and the dad didn't raise them to have those weird like those weird things, like that was even a question. Was the fam like what do you think of the family's attitudes towards sexuality? And it said was it appropriate? Chris and kathy saw each other naked in pre-addict times but they had a time where her mom like I don't remember as Kathy explaining it, but how they talked about it Like they, yeah, it wasn't anything to be ashamed about, it was. It just was facts.
Speaker 2This is just what you look like and he looks like this because of this, yeah, and if you think about it, that society makes us ashamed of bodies and that incorporates religion and etc. And laws and blah, blah, blah. Whatever we make each other feel self-conscious for, whatever reason that is, and you're so right that grandma from Jump the second those kids were in that attic. She was like don't you look at each other too long? And this they are, like not even you're about to hold them prisoner. Yeah, and they're like what? We're like children.
Speaker 1Yeah, also, you're like saying things that hadn't even occurred to us, right? But now we're wondering why you're saying that.
Speaker 2So, since we're there and we're talking about this, what did you think about?
Speaker 1the rape incident. I mean it was terrible, but like the point at the book when it happened, I kind of understood why it happened. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2Yeah, and you know it's wild, because I read this as a kid and you know there's multiple parts in the book leading up to this that you think it's about to happen. Right, yeah, and they are like no, that's bad, like we got to which they're brother and sister, so correct, correct, but I, and then it happened. You know the rape incident happened and then even Kathy was like no, I, I don't consider it rape because I could have stopped you and I didn't want no ma'am, it's still. It's still rape.
Speaker 2But yeah, if you don't have consent at all, then that is not okay. Um, but I thought that it happened more than once, like thinking back to reading I thought in my head that it was.
Speaker 1It had happened more than once it was just that one time towards the end of the book and I thought it happened frequently, which is weird how your brain remembers.
Speaker 2Yeah, it was like.
Speaker 1Porky's. I thought there was way more. I think I listened back to that. I thought there were way more boobs and butts. I was like there were a lot of boobs there were, but I thought it was like even more, yeah, yeah, and I had never read it before, so I just read the one. Were you shocked?
Speaker 2Or did you know that it was probably going to happen?
Speaker 1I kind of like you. I felt like something was going to happen along the way several times, so I wouldn't say shocked, maybe a little shocked that it went to that point. Yeah, not quickly but kind of quickly. And from a jealousy perspective, quickly, but kind of quickly. And from a jealousy perspective which, again, you're locked in an attic, I know when you're becoming a man and a woman and she kisses the stepfather, not saying that that makes it okay or anything.
Speaker 2When she did, that was like oh my god what are you doing?
Speaker 1yeah, that was wild just because like yeah, how did he not wake up?
Speaker 2I don't know if somebody kissed me flat out well, I mean, a mouse fart wakes me up. But if don't come sticking in my room trying to smooch my face, because I will wake up and clock you yeah, okay and well, unless you're joshua jackson, then you can keep going. Yeah, I'll try and clock you.
Speaker 1Yeah, what's on me? Well, unless you're Joshua Jackson, then you can keep going. Yeah, keep going. I'll try to clock you until I realize it's you, but anyway. But yeah, I kind of understood it, but I'd be interested to read maybe the sequels, because it did make me wonder once they're out of there.
Disassociation and Mental Health
Speaker 2I think, from some of the things I read, I could be completely wrong that they have a relationship after. Oh, really, I think so. I could be wrong, but I think that's where it was going. Oh Well, because they have to lie about who they are.
Speaker 1That's true, because they're not.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's true. So I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1I am interested to read more and I might and I thought it was interesting to the way that all of that sort of related when they talk about the grandfather and how he just basically idolized the mom when she was a kid almost like I think it was less about her religious-wise, like whatever, but more about her not being his possession anymore and that possessive thing that he like had toward her. So that seemed a little unnatural too. Well, I mean, he was mentally unstable as well.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean so like just all it was all a mess yeah, yeah, yeah oh boy. Yeah, it was a lot. Okay, I have a dumb question, oh okay. Well, first we'll have two. One's not dumb and the other one is dumb, so we'll end with the dumb question. Let's do it. The not dumb question was I thought this was interesting because it said this book is often marketed as horror. Do you agree with that classification and why?
Speaker 1Yeah, I read that it was like a Gothic novel. Yeah, I saw that somewhere and I was like I don't understand how. I don't think it's horror, I think it's. I think it's psychological, psychological thriller yeah, that's what I would say but not horror. I mean, I guess someone dies, but I guess when I think of horror, I think of more. Um, I guess you can have real people in horror, but I do think of more fantastical kind of things, like I guess I just think of scary.
Speaker 2Yeah whether that serial killer is not like psycho grandmas and parents aren't scary right, I don't know. I I agree, I think maybe a psychological drama, psychological something, thriller, yeah, something along, but horror seems weird. I don't think it's horror.
Speaker 1Like I that we should ask Cody? Yeah, we should ask him. I don't know if he's read it, but maybe he'll listen to this and he can tell us yeah, so I don't know. He may not have based on our conversation, maybe he would have an opinion.
Speaker 2I did. I did see Patrick and Dina this ever read this and they're like, no, they hadn't even heard of it. Oh, I was like oh well, you better okay. So here's my last stupid question. I'm not reading all these, but, um, if you had to be locked up in an attic for years, what and who would you want to take with you? Y, that is such an open-ended question. Yeah, I'm assuming we probably can't have communication devices.
Speaker 1That's probably yeah, probably not. It would have to be similar to like what they had to deal with. I mean, of course I want to save my children, but then I'm like, well, I don't want my children locked in.
Speaker 2Right, that's what I was thinking Like. I don't want anybody to be succumb. I would probably make my sister go with me.
Speaker 1I was thinking like I don't want anybody to be succumbed, I would probably make my sister go with me.
Speaker 2Yeah, I would probably make like a friend like you, but I wouldn't make well. My husband and I would end up killing each other within moments.
Speaker 1But then I wouldn't want my kids in there.
Speaker 2I know you wouldn't want to succumb anybody to that, but thank you for wanting to succumb me too, you're welcome.
Speaker 1Well, we would just pretend podcast into microphones, connected to nothing. We'd be live streaming nowhere, unlike now where we are apparently live streaming somewhere. I know, oh, but you know, they did put on like fake plays. Yeah, they did like the part where she was talking about dancing for hours and hours. I was like that sounds like fun actually, but I mean obviously here's the thing time I don't know like all right.
Speaker 2So fun fact I realized when I brought my older son to college orientation by the way, just a few days after I got home from my mom dying, I know to the college that my mom and dad both attended and they are both passed away y''all. It was a whole thing. Anyway, I had two nights in a hotel room by myself and I realized while I was there and I text Katie, like I have never stayed in a hotel room alone my whole life. That's crazy, literally my whole life, cause I've like I've never had a reason to. Every time I've traveled it's been either with my family, somebody in my family or a friend, or like if I went for like a workshop or something, I had somebody in the room with me, never alone.
Speaker 2And I've only lived by myself once, like solely by myself, and I absolutely hated it. I lived by myself like a year and it was the worst, and I realized I don't do very good in hotel rooms by myself. I thought I was going to like just love it and like enjoy some alone. I did not. I mean, I was stressed out, like it wasn't optimal under other circumstances.
Speaker 2Maybe it was I was like I don't, I don't enjoy this, like it's not fun to be. I had a nice ass room Cause I accidentally booked myself a suite suite for one, please, and I was too lazy to go fix it and they didn't charge me over. So I was just like, well, I understand. But then I was like well, I'm in this nice ass room by myself. Yeah, I don't like it Okay.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, you've never tried it, so there you go, but I'm like, okay, do I really not like being alone? Or is it just because I was just in a weird mental state?
Speaker 1I feel like it was the second thing.
Speaker 2I think so too.
Speaker 1I think if you could do it again in like I don't know, I don't know a couple months, and maybe if you need to go visit him or something, you will, who knows, I don't know, but isn't that?
Speaker 2wild, yeah. And I was like texting. I was texting my sister like that too. I was like I've never been in a hotel. She's like oh yeah, I guess you never would have been in one. I was like I know, because I didn't ever, I've never had Right Like Troy has been in 800 hotel rooms. Yeah, you probably have too.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I like Never. I actually like, if I'm on a work trip, that does that. I like look forward to like getting through the work stuff. Like they're like let's all get drinks, let's all go to dinner. I'm like I want to be like in the room by myself. See, that's Troy, I'm by myself in a really nice room. I don't want to get there at 11, go to bed and wake up and go to work the next day, Like I want to like be alone and awake. But I think you're good.
Speaker 2You're good with um. You don't get a lot of alone time, but you're good when you do get it and maximizing it. I do, yeah, I do. My brain just kind of goes on like what do I do now? I don't know why. I see what you mean, though. It's weird, I don't know. But see, I remember thinking he was so crazy when he would go on those work trips and being like everybody would be going out to have dinner and he would not go, and I'm like what. But I was at home with two young kids Of course I would be like I would do that.
Speaker 2Yeah, take me to eat without right. Right anyway, I was thinking about that with the attic situation. Yeah, because you'd probably get to where you long to be alone, but then, after you live in close, close proximity with those people for so long, you probably could never be alone again I feel, I feel that you know what I? Mean absolutely so I'm interested to read these next books to see how that transpires. I agree.
Speaker 1Yeah, I agree. And it is similar too to like when people get out of prison and they can't re-acclimate, yes, like wanting their freedom, which they deserved, but I wonder, like if it doesn't feel as good as you think it will, and it almost is scary, yeah well they were literal children, so I'm sure it was very scary. Well right, but like it's not as like joyous as you anticipate, maybe, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2Yeah, this book was a lot man. This book was a lot man.
Speaker 1Yeah, and the next? What did we say? The next one is Is the next one Kaleidoscope or is the next?
Speaker 2one. I'm going to read that. On my trip I actually got an OG copy, 80s copy. That's so awesome and they have a picture of Danielle Steele on the back full on glamour shot. I am. So it is epic, I will bring it, Please bring it. And Cooper was like why does that book smell? I was like that's the 80s.
Speaker 1It's not just that book smell, it's book from the 80s, oh yeah.
Speaker 2And it's like you know those grocery store.
Speaker 1Is it a hardback?
Speaker 2No, it's like a grocery store paperback.
Speaker 1Oh, that's amazing. Like the small ones.
Speaker 2That's amazing, I know, cause I ordered it from thrift books, by the way, that's where I like to order a lot of used books from and uh, they had one and it was like you can like select the excuse me, you can select the quality so you can get one that's like new or good. But I wanted to see the cover and it was like it was probably like close to the bottom quality wise, but I was like, well, it's the OG, even if it falls apart, even if it falls apart, I love that.
Speaker 2I know, Are you? Do you think you're going to watch either of the flowers in the attic movies? I don't think so. I don't either. I don't think I can do it again.
Sexuality, Trauma, and Survival
Speaker 1I don't think I need to. I wanted to finish the book. Yeah, like there was never a time where I was like oh I'm you know, I'm done, I'm not reading anymore, but I don't want to read it again and no, I don't want to see the movies.
Speaker 2Yeah, I don't think I've. I saw the original movie multiple times, which is weird. I was a weird kid, I don't know why did I watch that? I don't, I don't know. Anyway but I don't. I don't want to revisit that again, but it is a good book. Yeah, would you let your kids read it? Yeah, well, your teenagers, whatever, but yeah, like what do you think the appropriate age for this book is?
Speaker 1this book is? I don't really know, it's tricky. I would say teenagers, I think teenagers, maybe 13 or 14 and up, I would say because I think the younger of that age group would be very shocked. Yeah, would be, yeah, but it would um their critical thinking skills, I think, would kick in on it. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2I think, uh, maybe once puberty has kicked in. Yeah, I think so, and kind of is almost.
Speaker 1I mean it's if. If nothing else, it's a tale of the dark side of human nature, but it's human nature nonetheless.
Speaker 2Well, and it's also a tale of survival, yes, and things you have to do. You know I forgot to say this. You know what else that this book reminded me of? Did you ever see the movie, uh, the blue lagoon with brook shields? No, so it's her and her cousin, I think. I don't think that it's her brother. They get stuck on a, they're in a shipwreck and they get stuck on a desert island and they end up having a relationship and she has a baby and like, and they're young, like, and she was young when they filmed it and there was a whole controversy. I can't believe you don't know that movie. I've heard of it, I've just never seen it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I know about like we may have to watch that later. She's talked about it as a person, how it was really inappropriate and like oh yeah, appropriate.
Speaker 2And like oh yeah, I mean she's topless, I mean she was covered, like she had really long hair like yours, but she was topless and like dang and. But it made me think of how, I mean, human nature is gonna develop and sexuality is going to emerge, no matter where you are and who you are with.
Speaker 1Yep so yeah, and I mean that just is like a deeper understanding of the human experience. Yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah, I'm not going to read it again though. Okay, but I will give it. What did I give Porky's? One star I will, no, I'll give. If it was stars, I would give the book like a four. I would say four, yeah. I'd say four. Yeah, because I think some things were for shock value sake. Yeah, that could have been left out. I don't know, maybe not, though maybe the story wouldn't have been as good I might get. Yeah, I think I think I would give it a four. Yeah, yeah. Do we want to do trivia before we go, or is? Is this too? Okay?
Speaker 1I was like I thought I thought you meant book trivia. I was like I don't have that. Well, I've got 20 questions.
Speaker 2I mean we do need a little.
Speaker 1We need to lighten it up. We need to lighten up. Let us know if you read it with us guys or if you read it before. Had never read, I'd heard of it, I'm guessing, just my parents didn't let me read this book and then by the time I was picking out my own books, I wasn't like that's the book I want to read.
Speaker 2So I just kind of slipped through the cracks living on the edge. Yeah, I was the 80s guys most she was most parents oh no, I don't want that.
Speaker 1The category ones Okay, okay, I've got one. This is an 80s question from our 80s trivia box. What 80s television show?
Speaker 2featured Tom Hanks in women's clothing oh, bosom Buddies, bosom Buddies. Yeah, I always said Bosom Buddies, bosom.
Speaker 1Buddies, bosom, buddies. What was the theme song? Is double or nothing, I don't know.
Speaker 2This is my life by Billy Joel, I don't even know how it goes.
Speaker 1Is it? This is my life Is that it.
Speaker 2I don't.
Speaker 1That's not enough, it's like you're just literally saying the words on the page. Um, that was two notes.
Speaker 2Go ahead this is my life.
Speaker 1That's it, yeah, that's it. Oh, leave me alone, I guess. Weird, it's kind of odd occur.
Speaker 2Okay, all right. So this one, um, it's got a bunch of clues. It's you're supposed to battle with a partner, but it's just you, so you battle yourself. Okay, I'm just going to give you clues and you guess, uh, whenever you want, okay. Okay, I was touted as the world's best aerobic exerciser, so get on track and dial my 1-800 number for a free video and brochure. When you buy me, you'll feel like you're cross-country skiing. What am I? Oh my gosh. Picture a guy with a really long ponytail.
Speaker 1NordicTrack.
Speaker 2Yes, nordictrack ski machine Actually wrong. He was the gazelle. Yes, he was on the gazelle, my bad.
Speaker 1But I thought it was Nordic track Weird. You're right, he was the gazelle. Did you guys ever have a Nordic track? I think they were expensive, they were I mean exercise equipment.
Speaker 2We did have. We had a exercise bike called a life cycle. Oh yeah, we had one of those. Yeah, and I remember my my dad used it, not my mom, my dad was the one who's who would exercise and stuff, but he would pull it into the living room and watch it. When he would watch crossfire on CNN or some other something on CNN, yeah, yeah, like that was his exercise.
Speaker 2But I've done that, I've like watched shows while I was like, oh, we all do that now, but I don't think a lot of people used to do it Like pulling it into the other room Because you didn't have TVs in multiple rooms.
Speaker 1Right. A lot of times that's true. So you're literally pulling the exercise equipment into the room.
Speaker 2Because in the front, but it was heavy AF, oh, I bet, and so he would pull it in there. That's a workout on its own.
Speaker 1Do they still have that show?
Speaker 2It's just old men yelling at each other. Basically, I don't know.
Speaker 1You know what it is, though, right, they just debate. They debate stuff. Yeah, I can see it in my head. I just don't know if I've seen it any time in the last decade. Tell us listeners. Tell us listeners, all right, well, thanks for listening into this. Hopefully this is the the dreariest of our zennial girl summer.
Speaker 2I think so but we had to read it we had to, and I'm glad we did.
Speaker 1I have to. I really am so um. I can't close this box. I'm having trouble help.
Final Reflections on a Dark Classic
Speaker 1While she does that, I'm going to remind you to please leave a review five star review wherever you're listening. That helps other people find us. And if you have a remind you to please leave a review five-star review wherever you're listening, that helps other people find us. And if you have a couple minutes, actually leave a few little words about why you like our podcast and make sure you're following us everywhere, including the TikTok and the YouTube. I mean, we talk about Caesar salad, okay, we do. But yeah, do all those things and follow us on patreon and, uh, keep it here for more zennial girl summer. Yay, we'll see you next time, guys. Bye.
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