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Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial co-hosts Dani and Katie talk about their analog childhoods, digital adulthoods and everything in between. If you love 1980's and 1990's pop culture content, this is the podcast for you!
Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial Girl Summer: Forever by Judy Blume
Welcome back to our Xennial Girl Summer Book Club where we are talking about Judy Blume's 1975 young adult novel "Forever" -- now 50 years after its publication.
We talk about the frank discussions of sex and relationships and how we think they fit into the current social climate.
Don't miss the rest of our Xennial Girl Summer series of books and movies from the 80s and 90s.
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Hello and welcome to Generation In Between, a Zennio podcast where we revisit, remember and relearn all kinds of things from our 80s childhoods. Damn it, I did it again. 80s childhood, from being 80s kids and 90s teens. Yes, sorry, I was the one who initiated the change in that intro and I am the one who always has to redo. That's okay. There it is 80s kids and 90s teens. That's what we talk about here.
Speaker 1:And we are nearing the end of our Zennial Girl. Why can't I say girl? Zennial Girl, zennial Girl Summer, I know. And today's episode is our last book that we reread. Yes, last book. Four out of four that's not the star rating that I'm giving it. That is how many books we've read. Yeah, we've read four books. This is our very last one. We had two Judy Blume and this is our second, yes. And then we have one more movie to talk about. Next time we record. And then the new girl summer will end, but that's okay, because we've got spooky girl fall. Spooky girl fall coming right up. Uh, not too far behind that. I think we've got a couple other things we want to get to first, and then we'll be transitioning over to spooky and holiday.
Speaker 1:So I thought of something else for us, um, for the spooky season. Oh good, have you ever seen Rocky horror live? Never live, let's go there's. There's local places we're going. This is gonna. I'd never have seen it live either. Okay, so, like a shadow cast situation. Yeah, so do we watch the movie and then go see it like in the same week or something? Because I think it's like I just rewatched it after years of not having watched it and I'm like, oh, I need to rewatch it again. So when you go, when I go to the shadow cast, I know what's coming. Good idea. So we're definitely going to do that on my list and we'll base that just on a shadow cast somewhere. I'm sure, oh, definitely, I'm sure. I've already heard people like talking about where it's happening or if, am I, am I gonna do it? Am I not? Like I know they do. I'm at, they do want to in titusville, they do want to, uh, surfside, yeah, I believe so, yeah, yeah, okay, well, so, okay, that's on our, that's on our.
Speaker 1:Spooky girl fall. See, we're doing planning. I don't like the word of that. I don't know. We need a more, we need something better.
Speaker 1:Zennial Girl Summer was good because it's a play on hot girl summer. You're the writer, so you think about it and you come up with it. Yeah, because Spooky Girl Fall isn't happening. That's weird. I'll come up with something, don't worry, it doesn. Woohoo, it does. It's so cute.
Speaker 1:I love when they write messages Mine. So I usually get iced. But I got, I really wanted hot. And then they handed me iced and I didn't say mine says nothing because it's plastic, it's not. Oh yeah, they don't put it on the paper, yeah, so, oh well, well, I'll just take your woohoo. I like the woohoo. You know our friend Jen, one of our friends named Jen, get like it's flirted with on her cup, not me. They just say woohoo, because they went heavy handed on the syrup today. They're like you'll see, you'll see why we said that.
Speaker 1:And before we started recording, I told Katie I'm trying a center part and I feel like more like George Washington than I do, but also my roots need coloring, so that doesn't help. I'm going what is today? Wednesday, I'm going tomorrow. And hop, I'm going. Um, what is today, wednesday, I'm going tomorrow. Oh, praise Lord, yeah, my roots done. I know Katie's like yay, I know, I really don't think they look bad at all. Well, when I turned my head down no, still no, but I was like I want to cut it. But I told myself make it through the summer before you make that decision, cause the summer, when you're hot, it's not a good time.
Speaker 1:No, and I'm liking having a long ponytail. I can go like this I love your long ponytail. This is the shortest ponytail I've ever seen. No, when I first started growing out my hair, it was like a knob. It is long for you. Yes, thank you. Okay, listen, here we go. Listen, miss, my hair is mermaid hair. I don't have that, okay. Well, I am having like hair envy in the show that I'm directing right now, our actress who's playing Kate Howard.
Speaker 1:We figured out how to do the hot pink ponytail, the high pony, and I'm like I need a high pony. I need a high, hot pink pony in my life somehow. But I think I still think you need that. I could do it for Gaga. Yes, ma'am, I could do a hot pink high pony. I just ordered a whole bunch of black leather items. I need to. I need to do more. I need to do more planning than just the ponytail, cause I'm not there yet, but it's coming up. It's in like a month I was texting.
Speaker 1:I was texting my friend Kim and Sarah Kim, who bought us the Gaga tickets. We love you, kim. She didn't listen to us, but thank you. Anyway, I was texting them about like outfits and cause I was like, well, y'all know I'm going to get a wig, but I haven't decided. My cart is full of black pleather items and I said I'm going for I think I'm going to go for like slutty vibes, right, because if you're going to do it, gaga is the best place Might as well. Like goth slutty vibes With all your other middle-aged lady friends. Hey, and a gaze, come on, and a gaze, yeah. So I. So my friend Kim was like, oh, yeah, me too, and she was sending me all these pics. And then my friend Sarah said y'all are going to be the best Gaga sluts out there. And I was like I will claim that I love it, gaga sluts. So now you got to get on the Gaga slut train.
Speaker 1:I feel like, um, the pony, the ponytail is my contribution. Nope, you got to get some black leather. I'll find something. I'll find something. You got to get something I love to dress up. I know, day to day don't really like to put that much thought into what I have to wear or do. But if there's like a prep period for something specific, love it. It's on, absolutely love it. All right.
Speaker 1:Well, we're just talking about rain and shit. Well, anyway, now it's time to talk about I think we don't want to let our book summer go. I know I think we're procrastinating. Honestly, though, I'm ready for summer to be done. This summer has been a bitch for me and I'm ready for fall.
Speaker 1:I said last time when we recorded I don't like not having routine, I don't like I'm going to be sad because Caden's going to school, but I haven't let myself think about it yet, not yet so time. But I need, we need routine man, and he's ready to go, like this child is ready to go. So it's time to just be like okay, I never see him anyway, he's at your house. You see him way more than I do. Yeah, last night I got home oh, you probably aren't there. I say he wasn't, he wasn't there last night.
Speaker 1:But I got home and I was like really tired. We had an invited dress rehearsal for our cast, and not so much tired, just like very overstimulated. And so I was like okay, I'm ready to be home and just like put my pajamas on. My husband wasn't even home. I'm like I mean love him, but I was like I don't even have to like, yeah, decompress, yeah, have a whole convo with him, like I can just get. And I walk in like my whole house is full of teenagers and they're all in the kitchen and I'm hungry and it was fine. They were all had a friend over, my son had a girl over and I was just like couldn't even like get through the sea of teenagers to get to my room and I was trying. So I was like, okay, what little bit of something do I have in here to like, at least not look annoyed that they're here, cause I wasn't See, you're so nice, cause I would have just been annoyed. I I probably still came off that way, but I was like I said hi, long enough, I got to the fridge, I made myself some food and then I went in my room and I shut the door. Yeah, I don't blame you. I was like bye Bye teens. Bye Bye teens, all right. Well, speaking of teens Moving on, yeah, oh, good, look of teens.
Speaker 1:This book we're about to read, I'm going to, all right. So we read Forever by Judy Bloom. I we already talked a whole lot about Judy Bloom, like her directly, several times already, so I'm not going to go back into that. I'm just going to talk a little bit about the background of this book and then we'll talk about our thoughts. Yeah, and if you haven't listened to our episode, are you there, god, it's Me, Margaret. We go more in depth about her there and our book review, one we did. Like that's a bunch of books. We talked about Bunch of books. Don't worry, we're not hating on Judy Blume, no, we just have.
Speaker 1:I don't need to reiterate information. We'll see what my computer. See, I did it. See, I have, I have. Oh, oh, my God, oh my God, katie for those of y'all that are listening and not watching, katie kicked, kicked the thing which I've done before, and it's messed up. The screen, and the screen went crazy. And then the computer. All right, we're good, we're back, though, we're back. All right, everybody, here we go.
Speaker 1:So here's the official summary, which is going to make you giggle. Here it is oh God, oh wait, whoops, I went past it. Oh, look at all that buildup. And then I messed up. Okay, hold on. Want me to kick something again. Yeah, okay, there it is.
Speaker 1:The bed is brass, covered with a patchwork quilt, and nice and firm Michael says, in case you're interested, catherine is interested. Catherine and Michael are in love and Catherine knows it's forever, especially after she loses her virginity to him. But when they're separated for the summer, she begins to have feelings for another boy. What does this say about her love for Michael? And what does forever mean anyway? Is this the love of a lifetime or the very beginning of a lifetime of love? Oh, that was kind of a cute.
Speaker 1:I liked the hook, the like yeah, the bed is brass. Yeah, yeah, I had a brass bed. I don't think I ever did. I had a brass bed, no patchwork quilt, though. Yeah, fair enough, brass bed.
Speaker 1:That's a good summary, okay, so before we get going, did you read this in your childhood? I don't think I did. Okay, I was very surprised, not in a bad way, but just like didn't remember very really anything of reading. It Doesn't surprise me, except it does, because you grew up in a strict house, but then you said it wasn't strict with books I think I was able to get. Are you there, god, it's me, margaret, on my own, maybe, like it's not like my parents had the book, god, but then maybe this was just one. They either like it wasn't one that gave you or something, yeah, like I think maybe someone did give me are you there, goddess me, margaret.
Speaker 1:But I just think this one never showed up in our house and by the time I was actually in high school I wouldn't have read it right, like if it was at my school library which maybe it wasn't, I don't know. I didn't think I had read this until I got to the part where they're making out on the rug, yeah. And then I was like, oh, I remember this book. Now I remember I'm pretty sure I read it like middle school time frame, okay, you know, because honestly I don't think I had it. I think my sister had it, yeah, and then I took it or got it from the library or whatever. But then it all came flooding back because then I remembered, oh yeah, he like names his penis. I'm like it's so funny, I said penis, not wiener. Hello, gross Gross, this is wonderful.
Speaker 1:So, all right, let's get a little background of this because obviously, from the summary, this book came out in 1975. So y'all know there was some controversy. There still is to this day. If you've ever read this book, you know why, but we'll get into all that. So this young adult novel was written, like I said, 1975, judy Blume.
Speaker 1:On her website, judy Blume explained that she wrote this after her 14-year-old daughter, randy, asked for a story about two nice kids who have sex without either of them having to die. Okay, because, think about it, a lot of the classic tales like Romeo and Juliet, you know, or they don't die, but, like, something happens. Something horrible happens if you cross that line, right, yeah, so her 14 year old can you just like, cause, obviously Judy Blume was very sex positive, right, so this is probably like a con, a sim, a conversation they would have in their house anyway, right, interesting, right, um, what made it this book stand out to so many readers was kind of how it presented a woman's sexual awakening. It was from the female perspective. There's all kinds of stuff about, like we talked about the movies with teens boys. It's always from their perspective. This book was strictly from Catherine's. Yeah, right, um, bloom gave Catherine agency to make her own decisions, um, regarding her heart, her mind and her body, and she encouraged young readers to do the same. Okay, and if you remember like she was very like Catherine went to Planned Parenthood, she got birth control, she made sure like she wanted to do it and she was ready, and et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1:So obviously controversy started on this book as soon as it came out. All right, this was the mid 70s, not even late 70s. Listen to this quote that a mother told the New York Times in 1978. Okay, I'm ready. I'd rather have my daughter read pornography than forever. At least she'd know that was wrong. Instead of having this book about a nice, normal girl who has sex, and then it ends and the book's over. What? Okay, lady, you'd rather have your daughter read fake, like, see, fake pornography, which is made up All staged, all staged Fictional representations, than having a book based in a reality situation. Right, I get what she's saying. I don't agree with her. But I think what she's trying to say is that porn generally is accepted as wrong, right, so she wants her daughter to think sex is wrong, correct, yeah, she's trying to say that this book is normalizing sex whereas porn doesn't. Right, that's what she's saying, right, right, which is so unrealistic, yeah, right, no, not good.
Speaker 1:Some of the if you've never read this book, some of the things people's feathers got ruffled about. Obviously, sex, because it says in the summary she loses her virginity. But there was. It wasn't just that it happened. There was very frank discussions about it, yes, and there's also very, I would say, direct descriptions of it as well, like very factual, direct also of mutual masturbation, oral sex as well, plus all your feelings associated with it, and then even stuff like birth control, questioning your sexuality, planned Parenthood has always been a hot button topic.
Speaker 1:Teen pregnancy, teen pregnancy you know, all these things that, these are all the things that made people go ah, and there's like all of them that you just listed in one book, right, and then, of course, they still make people go ah, and there's not like a I don't know what the word is, but there's not like a punishment for these things, right, which now, I wouldn't say there's not consequences, there are, correct, but it's not. It is sex positive, right, in all those realms, yeah, and making it like part of life, yeah, and that even if you, you know, quote unquote make a mistake, let's say, maybe in the teen pregnancy realm, right, that like there's still like life goes on and there's options, and you know what I mean. Like I just think that without all these terrible things happening like her 14-year-old daughter said Judy Blume's daughter nobody died or nothing terrible happened. Like that mom even said in her quote, she's like, and then it just ends. And then it just ends. It's like, well, yeah, like people just keep living their lives. Yeah, that's true. I mean, sex doesn't end your life all the time. No, it really doesn't. You know.
Speaker 1:Well, this is a good time to revisit Danny's three C's. Here we go, which I haven't had. My oldest I need to revisit this again with him before he goes to college. He has to be like again, seriously, but you know, hey, it's important. So for those of you who don't know, the three C's, here we go. I came up with these when we had one of many talks with our oldest about sex, which you should do frequently. Troy kind of takes the reins, mostly now because, right, no, 18-year-old boy wants to talk to his mama about sex, most of them. So I told my kid you should not get physically intimate with someone unless you think about the three C's. Now, these are patented. Do not take my idea, unless you want to pay me money to have her write a book. Yes, I feel like I could do a TED Talk, though you definitely could, I know, maybe I will. Let's do it.
Speaker 1:So the first thing is the first C you have to have, which is the most important, is consent for both parties. Okay, first C is consent. You have to both say yes, and that means you can change your mind at any time, right? Either person, all right. Either human being can change their mind at any time. Consent is number one. Number two is communication.
Speaker 1:You have to be able to talk to each other and say what you're comfortable with and say what you're not comfortable with, even while it's happening. Yes, that's a big one, and it took me till probably my 30s to learn that, and I wish the three Cs would have been taught to me in sex ed when I was a kid. You have to be able to communicate, and if you are too embarrassed to do that, you ain't ready. Yep, I mean, sex is awkward and weird, so you have to be able to talk about it. Make it more awkward and weird if you have to, and if you're not mature enough to do it, you're not mature enough to to do the act. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Number three is you have to think about consequences, right, so, and that's not just negative things that happen, and it's not just pregnancy or STDs, which, yes, you need to think about because you need to protect yourself, but it's also emotional attachments that can happen or, um, just I don't know anything, anything that can, or where's your relationship going to go? If this is a casual thing? Where's it going to go after that? Those are the things you have to think about and be able to talk about with whoever you want to be intimate with before you do it. And if you can't do all three C's, you don't need to be doing it. Yeah, I agree, and I feel like. That's good.
Speaker 1:I feel like, and you, if you don't feel okay about any of those things, that's not bad, that's not like oh, I guess you're just behind. No, no, that's just like an indicator, like it's not time for you. And I mean, honestly, grownups who are out there in the dating world. Those can go for you and your partner too. I was just going to say I don't think those I mean, they definitely don't expire. No, you know, like you could.
Speaker 1:If you're feeling uncomfortable as an adult with someone you're spending time with and you don't feel strongly like you're cemented in those three, then like you're cemented in those three, then it's not time for you and that person to have a sexual relationship or an intimate relationship, and I think that's those are really important. And especially you know we've talked on this show before too like the pressure to have sex that we see in media and all of that, and like it's one thing to be sex positive. It's another thing to be like, oh my gosh, I'm different from everyone because I'm not ready, and like that is also fine. It's also fine Of any age, any phase in life. Maybe you didn't used to feel like that, but now you feel like that. Or you know there's, there's all sorts of things that happen in our bodies and our brains and our hormones throughout our life that can change how we feel about those things and that is always fine, 100%.
Speaker 1:Thank you for coming to our joint Ted talk. Yes, mostly hers, but I had a little addendum there. That's a joint Ted talk. That's what we need to do next for generation in between. Joint Ted talk. Yep, let's do it, um and I. The reason I brought those up is because we're going to revisit it later and see if the three C's happen with them in the book, because with them in the book because I think it's debatable.
Speaker 1:On one piece, I agree. Okay. So my computer screen. I know, katie, I know, I know we're going to do this today. My screen keeps dying and she's like you need to fix the settings. Okay, I know how to do it. I just keep forgetting we're going to do it today. Okay, so here's, let me let's talk about some more about this controversy before we get into our questions.
Speaker 1:Okay, by 1982, schools in Pennsylvania, florida and Ohio had challenged the book for not promoting abstinence or monogamy. Okay, one school district complained it was, quote unquote, basically a sexual how to do book for junior high students, which is so dumb which, while another claimed it quote unquote demoralizes marital sex. No, I mean no, I don't agree with either one of those terms. It is not a how to do book. That's ridiculous. No, no, it's more of a. I would say it's more of a. If you are feeling like this, you're not alone, right? I agree? Um, between 1990 and 1999, forever was the seventh most frequently challenged book, according to the American library association, and Judy Blume had two other books on that list. Yeah, so you know, I mean. The thing is it never goes away Like this book is always banned. Um, I thought this was really interesting.
Speaker 1:I found a statement that she addressed book banning very recently. Okay, so the thing is, book banning often is, like, positioned as a way to protect kids, but Judy balloon believes it's always been about fear, not protection. And here's what she said Because fear is contagious. Some parents are easily swayed. Book banning satisfies their need to feel in control of their children's lives. This fear is often disguised as moral outrage. They want to believe that if their children don't read about it, their children won't know about it, and if they don't know about it, it won't happen. Protecting your children means educating them and arming them with knowledge and reading and supporting what they want to read. Yeah, I got to say yes, period Props, judy. Yes, girl, yes, queen, that's right Because it's true. I mean, I have nothing to add. That was she said it exactly, exactly, right.
Speaker 1:And you want your if, if you're comfortable and your children are comfortable coming to you, it can be like a teachable moment where you're talking about the things and not your kids trying to find out everything they can about sex on their own. On other avenues, which they still will do, and I would say way more even now than 1975. Which they still will do, and I would say they still will do, yeah, way more even now than 1975. And that happened in 1975. But in 2025, man, yeah, I know People are, I know. So this book is 50 years old. Yeah, crazy, wow Crazy. It doesn't feel like it. I know Well, and I think, too, it's important that sometimes, like, kids don't want to talk to their parents about sex, but they need to be able to talk to some safe, older person If it's an aunt, an uncle, a friend, you know, somebody they need to be like, cause I don't, I've never wanted to talk to parental units about sex, even today, and I think that's okay, yeah, and that's fine, and you know, sex is a personal thing.
Speaker 1:I think, though, that I don't. I think kids shouldn't. If they don't feel comfortable talking to their parents about it, they. It's important that they don't feel like they're going to get punished if their parents find out that they are talking about it. Yeah, or reading about it, or reading about it In a safe way, correct, yeah, okay. So this I did not know Judy Blume's outspokenness against book censorship and her longtime support of Planned Parenthood, because she mentions it in several of her books actually has resulted in lots of hate mail and threats.
Speaker 1:Wow, to the point that they became so bad her publisher had to hire a bodyguard for live events. I believe it. I know it's just sad. That's too bad For books, like whoever thought an author over a book, who's like a mother, I know. Yeah, come on.
Speaker 1:In a very recent interview in 2023 with the BBC, judy Blume admitted she wrongly believed that book censorship was on its way out in the U? S years ago. I mean, yeah, like I said, we're talking 50 years ago. She said I came through the eighties when book banning was really at its height and it was terrible, and then libraries and schools began to get policies in place and we saw a falling off of the desire to censor books. Now it's back, and it's back much worse. This is in America. It is back so much worse than it was in the eighties because it's become political. Yeah, so she's saying it wasn't political before. Yeah, it was just like individual groups, and I think she's right. I think it didn't become such a big political issue as it is now. Yeah, I think she's a hundred percent right. Yeah, um, but anyway, that's just a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:I did not know this, but they have. I skipped ahead. They have made a series based on this book on Netflix. Did you know this? I don't know if it's out yet. I should have probably looked at that. Um it? It was created this year, oh, wow. Um, it's a new spin, though, on the book, but it's it's. It's loosely based on the book forever. The creator is Mara Brock Akil. She is also the creator of the shows girlfriends the game and being Mary Jane. She is also the creator of the show's girlfriends the game and being mary jane. Judy bloom is actually the executive producer. That's great. Um, the creator.
Speaker 1:She said she wanted to put her own spin on what she considers a timeless story, which is what we were just talking about. It doesn't feel like it's 50 years old, and she said this. I've always credited judy bloom as part of the seasoning of my voice as a writer. She was one of the first writers I read who dared to be honest about the human condition in young people, and you can see traces of her writing style within my own. Now I will say um, mara Brock Akil is a woman of color. Before I read this next part, this will matter.
Speaker 1:Um, even though Blume this is her quote, sorry did not have a lot of blackness or any blackness in her book, she wrote, she wrote with such humanity that I could project myself into the story and see myself and understand, which I think that's a huge compliment to Judy Bloom as an author. I agree, and it's one of those things where do you write about what you know as a white woman, correct? Or do you try to quote unquote, add some diversity or tokenization that maybe you don't know as well? So I think she stayed in her lane. I think what Akil's saying about it being kind of a neutrally based character, that wasn't, and that is one thing I really found. Whereas, like are you there, goddess me, margaret, which makes sense because it's a lot about like religion and stuff, yeah, this one had less of those like identifying markers that would make you feel like, oh, I don't really identify with that. Yeah, it was more of a neutral, like from a class perspective, from, uh, I mean, certainly there's a certain boundary on class, of course, but like from a religion perspective, from all of that. That would make a young person, I think, feel like they could connect and I mean I was a white woman growing up, so like, of course, I could connect with this and and Margaret's story too, but I understand what Akil's saying. Yeah, yeah, she said she wanted to update it for the current social media age, while also those staying true to the book's radical candor. Those were her words. Oh, I like that.
Speaker 1:So the two main characters in her version are two black teenagers, justin and Keisha, and the story takes place in LA in the late 2010s instead of New Jersey in the 70s. Okay, so that's one of the differences. It's an eight-episode series. It's also told from the teen boy's point of view instead of the teen girl's. Okay, so, no teen girl at all perspective. Right, just his, just his. And she said she wanted to show how race and class in today's society impacted one's adolescence. So, as a black male teen, there's a whole lot of things there. Sure, you know that she wanted to talk about. She said she was inspired by her own teenage son and his friends and and her family. Um, she also said that the show tackles issues that are affecting a new generation of teens, including consent, revenge, porn yeah, and racial profiling. Hmm, okay, so I want to watch it, cause it sounds. I want to see like an updated version of it, me too. So yeah, so there you go, check it out. So now that's about it. That's all I got. That was a lot, though. That was a lot, okay, sorry. Okay, hey, now we're going to chit chat, sorry.
Speaker 1:So I found it was actually really hard to find discussion questions. What I, what I know, I found them for American Pie. I know it was weird, that is odd. I found some questions from, like a English course that like read this book and then had like all this stuff with it. It was like in a packet, right. So some of these questions are very scholarly. I love a scholarly question. And then I found a couple here and there. But it was weird. Like usually you can find like book club questions instantly, especially a book this popular, I know. So it was weird, it was hard to find.
Speaker 1:So let's first of all, before we start with the questions, did you like the book? I liked the book a lot, you did. I really liked the book. I liked Judy Blume, though I mean it's hard not to. I mean we'll get into it more, but I liked what we sort of just mentioned, how you could kind of extrapolate, project yourself onto the character pretty easily. And then also I just like her direct, short writing style, not a lot of like hyperbole or flowery writing. Right, it was just very much. And it's not a long book. Yeah, it was short and it's just kind of like to the point this happened, then this happened, then this happened. And again, I think that normalizes the things in there a little more, because as soon as you start romanticizing a lot of it and your writing shows that, then it does become less like relatable. Yeah, and so I really, yeah, I really enjoyed it, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, first, before I do this discussion question, let's talk about what I said. Is the questionable C topic from the questionable consent part? Yeah, okay, because I feel like he kind of talked her into it the first time, even though she wanted to. Right, I know it's hard, because she did say no before, that I know, and it was like accepted and fine. So you're saying that time that they finally did you think she wasn't ready talked her into it? Yeah, weren't they at his sister's or something? Yeah, um, I don't know. I mean, that's that's a tough one, because anything that's scary or new sometimes takes a little bit of a push to do, and I'm not saying like a physical push in life. I'm thinking of myself, like I would have probably stayed afraid of sex my whole life probably, if I hadn't like not been talked into it but been like I don't know, like encouraged in a safe space to want to do it. Which I kind of read was him, like she felt finally safe enough and and based on their location, to finally be able to be like comfortable saying yes. But she wasn't the pursuer. I guess maybe that's the issue If you're not the one pursuing it. I don't know, it's questionable. Now we're in a deep. We're in a deep deep.
Speaker 1:I'm watching your, your thoughts on no. I'm just like a very. It's very, um, I mean, obviously, if someone doesn't want to do something into it, it's always a no, oh right, always Sure, but I don't know that she didn't want to in that moment. I think the times before, yes, but here's my thing If somebody's saying no, whether they feel it 100 or 2, if they're saying it, you have to respect it. Yeah, so from his side I guess I'm thinking of if I were her.
Speaker 1:It's kind of what I was just describing, not not that I well, you know what he did was right, because every time I, every time like since I have two boys, that's been a big thing for me Always them, and touch is consent, right, I want them from from jump to know, like, even when they're like play fighting cause they're boys, and oh my God it's. And I'm like okay, if you're laughing and telling your brother no, you better mean that. And if he's telling you know, stop, I don't care if he's laughing or if his body is, you know, wiggling around and hitting you back and whatever. If his mouth is saying no, it means no, and I don't say no if you don't mean it and like, and maybe that's what I mean, yeah, and like, if you're being tickled and you're like stop, stop, don't say stop unless you mean stop, yeah, but like, say what you mean. And then if somebody's saying take what they're saying for what it means, if that makes sense, yes. So in this particular instance, then I guess what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And again, I'm reading a fictionalized version of an account. I am not the girl there at the moment, I'm neither participant. I don't know that she meant it, but she was being resistant, so that's what he should have taken, right, yeah, so I don't know. Yeah, I get what you're saying, I don't know. I just maybe I'm reading way too much into that. I do that sometimes, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think that that is and it goes back to that matter of fact writing because we're not given like a lot of insight into, like her thought pattern in that moment or or whatever else might be factoring into that moment. We're just hearing the words being said. So I think it is, you know, but to your point, like that's, that's not debatable. A no is a no, right Period, right, you can't be like, well, but they're doing this or they're doing that. So I, I totally agree with that. Yeah, I don't know, that's a tricky one for that. Well, I do think that they I do think the other two c's they did a good job of.
Speaker 1:For sure they did talk about. I mean, she even said I don't know what I'm doing, like how do I do this? Like, yeah, you know, and I just had a giggle Cause, I mean we all remember that. Oh yeah, like, what the hell am I supposed to do with this? And normalizing, that was really good. Yeah, that was good to normalize that. And he didn't laugh at her, he just said well, here's how you do it here.
Speaker 1:The funny, the only other, the only other thing I'll say is, on the flip side, like he already knew what to do. I was just like question mark Right, cause they're both. Well, he is older, I think Right, wasn't he older by a year? Yeah, like they're both seniors, though they're both in the same grade. They're both in the same grade, they're just at different schools. I thought he was older, so I think they're around the same age, but either way, yeah. But I was like, oh, so he just like already like knows how to rock her world. That part was a little. I was like that's out there. That was out there. It's not just her that doesn't know what she's doing. That was the only thing that I was like that made.
Speaker 1:That is not very realistic for real life. Correct, for most. I won't say all, because that's not fair, because all bodies are different, absolutely. For most young women who are, um, for most young women who are with male partners yes, let me put it that way the first few times it takes a while to figure out how to make it a mutually enjoyable experience, because it was from her perspective. Her perspective was that he knew what he was doing and she didn't. Well, I mean physically, yeah, I mean like it was pretty obvious he, yes, but they, yes, that's true, that's what I mean. I took a bit to get to her orgasm point, but not really for him, but that's normal. No, no, I meant that he was even able to do it for her at all. Oh, yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1:No shade straight men out there when you but listen, when you're younger, you don't know. Maybe he was in that reference section at the library, maybe he had that book from American Pie, maybe he wrote that book, maybe that was him, not that, not that. Let me clarify. Not that he couldn't know. I just was saying if you're a young woman reading this book and then you go and that same thing doesn't happen for you and you're, then you're going to be like, oh, what's wrong with me? Right, like it. Listen, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I I'm always very sensitive to that, because I feel like women have been, women have been put under this, like, oh, do you need to look at that? Katie's phone's going crazy. Is it an emergency? Okay, no, not at all. She's like oh, please save me from this. Hello, hello, mom, dad, someone, but I feel, I just feel like women have been given the short end of the stick.
Speaker 1:Sure, with that a lot, sure, and then you are made to feel well, let's just put, let me put it this way men's pleasure has been prioritized by women's for generations since beginning of time, and I mean the fact that they even talk about the woman's perspective in this is good, correct. But also our bodies are different. Who are inexperienced? Believe, yes, inexperienced, on both sides. You may be, wouldn't be at that point yet, and that's something you can work through as young people and as a couple, right, and it's listen, it's harder for females than it is for males. It definitely is, because all of our things are on the inside and you have to do some digging. Honestly, yeah, like, literally, like, literally, yeah, 100%. Do you remember that, friends, where they draw the map of their erogenous zones for Joey? Yes, oh, my God, I think of that all the time when something like this comes up in conversation, cause I'm like yeah, that's basically what you need is a dialogue. Go three, two, two, two, like, yeah, so you think about that a lot, huh, when you're having these conversations all the time. Yeah, monica needs to draw pictures for everyone. Yeah, rachel, whoever it was Okay. Yeah, I think it was Rachel.
Speaker 1:Here's the first question and it goes along kind of with what we're talking about Throughout the book. Many of Catherine's friends go through a major struggle dealing with their sexual actions and feelings. Sorry, my screen went out again. For example, michael talks about having an STD in his past and then Artie struggles with his sexual orientation, which we don't really like. We didn't really know that was a deal at first, and then, yeah, we hear about. Why do you think Bloom didn't really know that was a deal at first, and then, yeah, let me hear about it later.
Speaker 1:Why do you think Bloom didn't have something so negative happen to Catherine? Do you think there was a reason for keeping Catherine safe within the text? Wow, that's a really good question. I know I told you some of these are scholarly. Well, I think the short, simplified answer is that her daughter asked for a book where that wouldn't happen, correct.
Speaker 1:So she made it. She made that character safe, well, and she didn't want to punish her, not like she's punishing other people, but like her point was to have a positive experience, positive and realistic experience, absolutely Not that negative things can't happen, but there's already a lot of that out there. Well, and I think, making sort of the tertiary characters, who it's not written from the perspective of experience, some of the negative things still shows you what those could be, the struggles, consequences, whatever it may be, without it being that core person that she wants you to identify with. I think that's why I think so too. And then I will say, like, why'd they have to make already the one? I know what you're gonna say because I wrote it down yeah, he's like totally in the theater drama stereotype. Yeah, that stereotype of, oh, he's this amazing actor in the theater and he's questioning his sexuality. Come on, I mean, although, yes, that does happen, it does happen. Um, and especially 50 years ago, that would have been. But yeah, now we know, like that, now we know that as a stereotype and I don't know that that would have been the case, then maybe that might've been the first time someone wrote about that and someone went, oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know, but you know, I think the reason to a lot of people of any, um, sexual orientation or gender expression flock to the theater community is because it's a safe place to be. Other people, absolutely, and I I don't think it's, oh, you're just naturally talented, which it a lot of people are naturally talented people. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's because it's a safe place to just express yourself in any way, and that includes people of varying, like you said, identities. But yeah, you can, I like being around people who aren't like me.
Speaker 1:Oh same, and admittedly there are a lot of in my theater circles white women in their 30s and 40s who I do theater with. So there are a lot of people like me too. I will acknowledge that. But it's also an easy way for me to be around people of varying ages, varying backgrounds, varying talent to bring different things and, like you said, in a safe space. It's like that's the theater's eclectic, and so that makes sense, that people who maybe feel marginalized in other ways have always kind of been drawn to that. And if you are uncomfortable in who you are, still trying to process that, and especially as a young, I mean that could be any young people in any situation. Yeah, and especially as a young, I mean that could be any young people in any situation. Being able to be someone else for a little bit is a form of escapism. Yeah, that's safe. And then you return back to who you are in your life and nothing has changed. So I mean, it is a stereotype.
Speaker 1:But I also, for all the reasons we just said, kind of understand why he was kind of placed there in this book. I had a hard time with his suicide attempt. Yeah, that was a rough one. That was a rough one Because that's realistic. Yeah, then and now, yeah, trigger warning to those of you I'm just going to tell you if you ever want to read this book be triggered for self-harm because he tries to hang himself and it goes wrong. Be triggered for self-harm because he tries to hang himself and it goes wrong. So if it he ends up being okay, um, well, he survives it. But man, that was. I forgot that that happened and it took me by surprise and I was like, oh, my gosh, like that I was not ready to deal with, like that I was not ready to deal with. So I moved through that really quickly. Yeah, but anyway, okay, moving on, I was like I was looking at this question. I'm like I forgot who this character was, but now I think I remember the question was what do you feel Jamie's role was in the text?
Speaker 1:That was the best friend. Yeah, wasn't that her friend or no? No, that was Erica, wasn't it? Wasn not her friend, or no? No, that was erica, wasn't it? Wasn't erica her friend? Okay, I was hoping. Yeah, who the heck is jimmy? Oh gosh, now I'm not gonna be able to find it. Uh, we can loop back to it. Or was jamie the little sister? Oh, yes, jamie's little sister, little sister, yes, I don't know. Why was she in there? I don't know, we don't even remember her. So the answer is no role. I don't know, I have no necessary. All right, it's. I don't know, we don't even remember her. So the answer is no role. I don't know, I have no deep literary. All right, it's, moving on. I don't either. We're going to keep going. Okay, this, this will be interesting.
Speaker 1:At what point in the novel do you believe Catherine realized that she and Michael were not going to last forever? How and why did she realize this, this, and what effects did it have on her? I think as soon as she started being attracted to theo, immediately it's like, almost like a realization, like, oh, the way that I feel about this other person is possible to feel with yep others, and especially after you've had some sort of sexual awakening. It's a different feeling, um, and especially if the sexual awakening you associate with like, okay, well, now that's my person, forever, that's it, yeah. And then that first moment of doubt that you're like, well, I don't know, maybe that isn't. I think it was right. Then, yeah, I agree, um, cause I can remember that exact thing happening to me, like with my first serious boyfriend. And then, uh, you know, and all the firsts that go along with that, and then I think I told this story before because, uh, we, we went on a break, uh, yeah, over spring break. Yeah, yeah, um, and then I uh had some making out time with somebody else and then, oops, the break, the break remains. Well, I, but then I lied about it and we got back together and that was bad. But I should have known then, like I should have known, danny, it's time, like, yeah, you're off in this car with this other boy, right, and it's probably, yeah, I should have just one.
Speaker 1:One of my kids without I have so many, I know she has a lot, so you won't be able to figure it out had a really, really bad breakup in the last couple years, and one of the things we said to that kid was you're too young to feel like this. Yeah, meaning like it's not that deep, right. I know we're not trying to trivialize how you feel, right, deep Right. I know we're not trying to trivialize how you feel Right, but believe us that this is just a small speck in the lifelong relationships you are going to have, romantic and otherwise. Yeah, your heart's going to get broken a lot.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think we started listing, like, the number of times we'd been broken up with and then the number of times we'd broken up with someone else. And the kid is just staring at us and we're like oh wait, yeah wait, there was not helpful when you're feeling like shit and you're like so basically you're telling me, I'm going to feel like shit 80, a hundred other times, right, right, right. But it's also true, like it's, like, you know, buckle up buttercup. And I think we were also trying to to tell this kid sometimes you'll be the one that breaks. Oh yeah, like the, the way you feel. Yeah, I've done both. I've definitely been on both sides. Oh God, me too. And I think. I think anyone who you know doesn't marry their middle school sweetheart which I know a few people that have anyone who doesn't have that experience will be on both sides of that spectrum, even if it's not a serious relationship, even if it's just a flirtation, and then you're like and the other person's still into it and you're not that's the worst Like the guy who sent you the picture.
Speaker 1:That was on a Dawson's episode, so people may not have heard this Somebody who was it, that messaged me about that and they were like so, danny, why didn back? After you got the picture, I was like shut up. You know why? Yeah, yeah, flirting online and then seeing a picture and ghosting Ooh, that was me Early 2000s. I mean, I've done worse things, but that was pretty shitty of me. That's okay, I got it.
Speaker 1:I mean, what were you going to say? Sorry, I saw your picture and I didn't think you were attractive. I mean, you think that's what you should have done. I don't know I should have been on, I shouldn't have just ghosted. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is there. You think I should have ghosted. Ghosting is mean, unless the person's saying I don't think you're attractive is not mean, or maybe I'm not, I don't know. Yeah, that's hard, that's tricky, because if somebody told me that, I would crumble on the floor. That's At least. If they ghost you, you can be mad at them, because I had. That was shitty.
Speaker 1:I had people tell me that in middle school and high school, like I don't like you because you're ugly. Literally, 100% Literally, those were, but they're. Boys, right, in middle school, are the worst. What are you going to do? And girls are too. It still doesn't feel good, but what are you going to do? Okay, how she realized it wouldn't be.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, so we address that very well, yeah, okay, what is the significance of Judy Blume's choice to end the text with Catherine's mom telling her Theo had called? I thought that was a good ending to the book. I think it's just like a life goes on. Yeah, I agree, I thought it was good. I love books that end like that. Yeah, like you get a little sneak peek into seeing what's happening next, right, but, but that's it, but that's it, and it's like everything with Michael's done, theo question mark yeah, I don't know, he called. Well, who knows what could happen? Right, and it's okay to not know the definitive answer on that. Yeah, I liked the way that ended. I did too. I liked her parents too, by the way, and her grandma. Okay, well, the next question is about the grandma. Okay, good, yeah, look at that. Oh my god, our segues today. All right.
Speaker 1:So much of the dialogue that attempts to help katherine in making responsible decisions concerning sex is primarily conveyed through her mother, grandmother and, occasionally, her father. Readers do not learn very much about how michael or any of the other male characters are feeling or what they are thinking, unless, unless they say so, it is suggested that Forever was written as a self-help book. Question is what audience might Forever be intending to help, and what does that suggest about society and gender roles when it comes to sex and responsibility? This is a big one. Well, first of all, I don't think it's a self-help book, no, period. But I do think it is trying to make people feel seen, yeah, self-help to me is like a how-to. I did this and it helped me. Here's how Right.
Speaker 1:So I don't think this book is that, although although I'll pause you there, because when she goes to Planned Parenthood for girls back then that wanted to know how to do that, how to get birth control without your parents I think it was a good example of how to do it. That's true, that is true. Yeah, I agree. So keep going. Sorry, yeah, so, no, no, that's that. That's a good point, I think. So the question really at the end, then, is like what audience is it for, then? To help, kind of what you were just saying? I mean, I do think it's targeted for, I think it could really be any teens, certainly teens, maybe even teens who don't fit in like the binary sexualities, I think, because it's like exploratory in general, yeah, and talks about both sides, even though it's in the perspective of Catherine in general, and talks about both sides even though it's in the perspective of Catherine. And then I think, yeah, teenage girls for sure are the main audience for this, and maybe even young teens, like middle school-ish, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think the latter part of that question is where it says what does that suggest about society and gender roles when it comes to sex and responsibility? A lot of responsibility is placed upon men to not spread disease and women to not get pregnant, I think, because men are told to have condom. Well, okay, let me, let me clarify, let me say I'm simplifying here. Men are just told to keep it wrapped up, right, yeah, and then, but girls are like it's your job to get on the pill. It's your job to do this.
Speaker 1:Um, I feel like nowadays, I feel like there's equal responsibility for all partners and any kind of relationship situation, but I feel like in the 70s, I don't know what do you think? I feel like it's kind of, and now I'm like losing my train of thought, because now I'm thinking as I'm talking and I'm like that doesn't make sense actually. So I mean, I think they demonstrated what you just said in the book where she took the extra step to prevent the pregnancy, because the only thing men can do is the condom part. They can't do the other part. Well, I think it's important to. I think it's also important for the men to talk to whoever they're having sex with In this case it's a female to make sure, like, hey, what are your precautions? That you're doing, like I'm doing this Again. That comes back to the communication. Right, I'm doing this again, that comes back to the communication. It does, it does, it does. And you have to have those conversations. Yeah, in advance, in advance. You cannot do it in the moment, right, because it's too late.
Speaker 1:I didn't think that the gender rules were super bad or stereotypical in this. I think it was just you. Yeah, if you have this part right, here is what you should do, and if you have these parts, here's how you can help out. You know so and what you should expect from the opposite, right? So I don't, I don't think it was really like super, yeah, bad, or stereotypical or wrong. I think I think it did a pretty good job of talking about both. Um, I'm gonna skip a few because I thought this, I thought this grandma question was in that one, but I was wrong. It was a few ahead.
Speaker 1:Like I said, catherine's grandma involves herself in Catherine's life by sending her pamphlets and giving her advice. Excuse me, based upon your reading of their interactions, do you feel that Bloom wants readers to view the grandmother sympathetically or view her as an interloper? I think sympathetically I do too. Yeah, you're supposed to like. I just like earlier I said I like the grandma Cause she sent her, like the Planned Parenthood thing, right, yeah, okay, yeah, she's. Cause she is like some big donor to Planned Parenthood, new York city, right, and like she's involved with that. And like she went to go see her grandma and then went to do that. She did it in New York City, yeah. So I think the.
Speaker 1:No, I think we're supposed to like the grandma, and I think it's that thing where it's like, also subtly acknowledging it is hard to talk to your parents about this stuff and that is OK, right. In her case she has a progressive, open grandmother who can help her, and maybe for you that's not you, but maybe there's somebody else. It kind of forces you to think outside your home if you need to, and I thought that that was a good thing to throw in there. I would love to know more and I could probably research this about Judy Blume's relationship with her grandmothers, because in both of these books we've had strong grandmother characters who were very involved in the lives of the characters, true, and and I thought both were very likable but realistic like you could be, like, oh, that was a bit much right in both cases. Yes, um, but they were in the end it's like, oh, but they're, you know, they're a trusted person. Yeah, they're a bonus person in addition to the parents, and I think it's interesting that she keeps including that dynamic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd be interested to know more about her life and that perspective and I wonder what kind of grandmother she is. Oh, she's probably. She's got to be like this, she's got to be like here. Just read my books. I don't need to send you pamphlets, I'll just read you the literal things I've written. Here you go. My guess is that she's either her grandma was either totally like that or 100% different, and that's why she writes them that way.
Speaker 1:We need to do a social clip of this and tag Judy Blume and say, please, tell us how the relationship I'm asking you now, judy Blume, how the relationship you had with your grandmother grandmothers shapes your grandmother characters, because we're curious, let us know, let us know, let us know. Now that's on me to remember that we have that. Don't worry, I'll find it. Ok, let's do one more and then we'd be done, because we've been talking about this for a while. We've been talking about this for a while. Yes, oh, ok, oh, okay, there was one that I. Okay, this one, let me go back up. Okay, hold on, hold, please. Okay, on page 44 of Judy Blume's Forever, catherine is shown to think that this is quoted back in the olden days, girls were divided into two groups those who did and those who didn't.
Speaker 1:Nice girls didn't. Naturally, according to what society seems to be like, as reflected in the novel, would Catherine be considered a nice girl or not Nice girl? What are some other examples of societal contradictions that occur throughout the novel? I know I mean, if we're talking, if we're, if it's black and white, yeah, that nice don't have sex and not nice do, then she'd be not nice. So here's a problem with binaries, because it just doesn't work that way. You just black and white never works like category wise. And I would also say that your sexual experience is not your identity. Oh, yeah, that is a small, small sexual identity might be a little bit more, but, like, the actual acts that you do is not identifying. No, that is just something that happens in life. Well, saying something's nice is very like subjective, for sure.
Speaker 1:Or saying something is nice or pretty or bad, yeah, like what does that even mean that it's different to everyone, depending on totally your belief system, your outlook, like, yeah, I think she put that in there, the part that you read that was quoted to sort of set that up, yeah, so that then the reader could critically think and go well, I think Catherine's a nice girl, Right, and she's doing this thing responsibly, as responsibly as she possibly can. She's also basically an adult, right. This wasn't like who's getting ready to go off to college. So I think a reader, even a younger one, like, let's say, a 12 or 13-year-old, reading the book, could sort that out and be like well, she seems great to me and this is just one thing. So I think her putting that in the book was just a way for the reader to question that standpoint as they're reading yeah, I agree, and it says there, page 44. I guess it depends.
Speaker 1:As they're reading yeah, I agree, and, and it says there, page 44, I guess it depends which version you're reading. But well, it's, it's after. You've already connected with the character, right, so you already like her. So when you read that, you're almost defensive of her. Yeah, in your mind you're like well, what? Like Catherine's great. But it also makes you question like, well, why does that? Why is that even a thing? Yeah, like, I totally agree. I totally agree. It doesn't even make sense.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so did you read this paper like in hardback or did you? Uh, yeah, no, paper paperback, you have this one. No, I don't. I don't love that cover. To be honest, I don't know if mine had a picture on it. I think it was just that looks like a grocery store romance novel. It really does. I know I love it. Oh, that's so funny. The back is really good too. Look at this, what's happening. So the only other thing I had on here that you didn't touch on I don't have that many things. Well, I wrote Ralph just because that was funny, but we already talked about that. Ralph just because that was funny, but we already talked about that.
Speaker 1:Sybil and the pregnancy oh, we haven't talked about that. My brain went there's a lot of names of like secondary, yeah. The pregnancy, yes, and like hiding it from her parents and wanting to give her up for adoption Like that was her whole plan, yeah, and then hoping that they named her Jennifer. That was like plan. And then hoping that they named her Jennifer. That was like I was not prepared for that. That really bothered me, like as a mother now thinking about a mother not being with her kid, just like. And I understand that people choose adoption for all sorts of reasons and that is fine. But even if they choose that, to me that's still. You know that's heartbreaking for them that they had to do that for whatever reason. That's still. You know that that's heartbreaking for them that they had to do that for whatever reason. Right, I know, and, um, no shade at all, but like it's, it's so.
Speaker 1:Like reading that and someone so young, yeah, who I don't know, I thought that that was kind of oversimplified. Well, I think they, I think maybe that she was the character she was. I guess, maybe to show like a different perspective than had been portrayed before. Yeah, because, remember, this is 1975. True, I'm looking at it from 2025 lens and 43 year old mom of five children, lens, right, and in 1975. Yeah, for a girl to just be like I mean, she was not a very stable character, like no, you knew something was going on. She wasn't probably ready to be the type of mother that a child would need for a lot of reasons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think maybe it was written like that just because she wanted a different perspective on a teen who was pregnant, like instead of you know, and this was still back in the time when they would ship girls away, sure, and I think that's where my brain went, because I've, as a journalist, I've spoken to families that that happened to during that timeframe. We've got some stories in my own family of that. Yeah, and I always just get so, especially talking to those people now, 40, 50 years later, like for the stories I've done, it is very heartbreaking because their birth parents, or whatever at the time, were made to feel that there was no other option and that they were bad and they were whatever and there weren't resources and they were an embarrassment and they were whatever. And then meanwhile, the kid even if they have an amazing adopted family, which most of them do they are always going to feel that their parent didn't want them for some reason, right, and to be able to, like, rectify that 40, 50 years later, when they're finding each other through DNA matches or Facebook or whatever you know. And and the kids saying, well, I always felt like this. And the parents saying, like, well, no, this is really what happened and it's great that they can meet to to kind of not closure, but to kind of talk about those things now. But you just think, well, what about all those decades in between? Right, and it's too bad, and so I don't know. I know I I'm not upset with judy bloom.
Speaker 1:No, no, I think she wrote about something real. Yeah, that really was happening a lot and probably, of course, still happens, but, like, um, I just thought it was very much, it was in that matter of fact style. So I don't think you can make that character, especially because we aren't hearing it from sybil's perspective, we're hearing it from katherine's. Yeah, I don't think you can all of a sudden now be flowery about Sybil. She's like feeling sad and troubled, like you really can't go down that road in a book this length. That's not really about her, but I was just kind of like, wow, there's a lot more to unpack there, yeah, and I mean she's a child having a child, yeah, so there's that. But I mean that's what critical thinking and discussions are for, yeah, to take it. For here's a thing that happened in the book. It's it's not up to me to interpret it for you, it's up to you to kind of think about that and be sad or be like, oh, that was good or whatever you want it to be. And that's kind of kind of the, the genius of her writing. I think yeah, yeah, anyway, that was. Was it everything else? You touched on everything else we talked about. We had other questions. But I think we're good, I think we, because those are like I was like that's a lot. They're very scholastic, yeah, very scholastic.
Speaker 1:Do we want to do any trivia before we are done with this one. It's way over there, I get it, it's by your coffee. Um, I think far hold on this was this. I mean, this was a heavy episode. I feel like and this was a heavy read, which is weird, right, because it's short and it's judy bloom, but I feel like I don't know. I think reading it now as someone with whatever amount of sexual experience right, is it's just interesting.
Speaker 1:Loads and loads with so much. Oh no, I can't, I just can't. So much. Too tired, okay, too tired. Don't want to talk about it all. Right, so let's do the 80s first. Okay, in order, so's go in order. So if you haven't listened to us before, you've never heard us do this, because sometimes we forget.
Speaker 1:We read each other a trivia question. One is from a box of 80s questions and one is from 90s. Dani has the 80s questions today. I keep yawning. Sorry, we may have asked this already, but it's a good one. Let's do it, and I don't think you're gonna get it right, even if we've already said the answer. Okay, how much did it cost to make a call on a payphone in 1982? I think I got this one right last time and I said in time. Shit, yeah, yes, yeah, and because the reba song, oh damn it. Yeah, yeah, and jen, all right, I'm doing another one. Would back me up on this, all right, sorry, well, thin dime is all you need. All right, call me if you get this one. Okay, I'll give you a dollar, all right, what was the name of the bartender on the love boat? Just, girl, harry, isaac. Okay, who know? Katie? Katie one, because she remembers, because of Reba. Way to go, reba. Yeah, thank you, reba.
Speaker 1:I will watch Jeopardy, like Brant and I, and then Amelia likes to watch it with us now too. Sometimes some of these questions and the people answer them, I will constantly be like how does anyone know the answer? I know, or I'll say it before they answer, like the question, who would ever know that? And someone answers it. So that's kind of how I felt about that love boat question. Okay, who would ever know that? And someone answers it. So that's kind of how I felt about that love boat question. Well, there we go. Oh, I think you'll know this one. I know you'll know this one.
Speaker 1:Okay, what popular 90s sitcom was a spinoff of Cheers? Oh, frasier, I say we've sang the same song before. I was like what Frasier? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, frasier, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Let me see what the other side says. Oh, it's a math one. It's Seinfeld math. This will be fun.
Speaker 1:Okay, number of the magic eight ball on Putty's bomber style jacket. So that's easy. What Putty has a magic ball? There's a number on it. Yeah, it's a magic ball. Is it an eight? Yes, okay, oh wait, we're not done. Minus, minus, so eight, okay, minus George Costanza's perfect baby name. Oh, I don't know this one, I don't remember. He said the perfect baby name is seven. Okay, so the answer is one. Okay, see, everybody who's Seinfeld stands out there like, oh my God, listen, I loved Seinfeld and I watched it, but I didn't rewatch Seinfeld, right? So like, if you missed it, you missed it. I don't remember. And like, yeah, all right. Well, that was fun, that was a good way to end. Well, thank you guys for being here for all of our Zennial Girl Summer books. We're done with those. We're going to have one more movie, so if you missed any of our Zennial Girl Summer, go on back and re-listen and we'll see you on those episodes, as well as Dawson's Creek, and we'll see you next time. Bye.
