Episode 40: Stop Guessing: How to Truly Understand Your Customers

In this episode, Jennifer sits down with Curt and Rob, co-founders of HUMN Marketing Agency, to unpack the power of customer-centered storytelling and human-first marketing strategy. With complementary backgrounds in design, nonprofit leadership, and brand messaging. The conversation dives into the importance of understanding your customers on a deeper level—and how most business owners are marketing based on assumptions, not insights. You’ll learn how to use frameworks like StoryBrand, plus how HUMN blends human-centered design with smart strategy to build confident, simple marketing plans.

💡 Top 5 Takeaways:

• Don’t market to yourself—market to your customers’ problems.
• Real insights come from real conversations. 
• Partnerships thrive when built with intentionality. They share how they explored their compatibility, values, and strengths before formally launching a business together—
• Simple, confident plans win over marketing chaos.  
• Marketing isn’t B2B or B2C—it’s H2H: Human to Human. 

Meet our Guests: 

Rob Monacelli
Co-Founder, Human-Centered Design Strategist
Rob is a hybrid creative thinker with over 25 years of experience in marketing and branding. He’s all about blending strategic thinking with innovative design to help brands tell their unique stories. Rob loves diving into consumer insights and transforming them into compelling marketing strategies that resonate with audiences. 

Curt Kuiper
Co-Founder, Certified StoryBrand Guide
Curt is a branding and marketing consultant on a mission to help high-integrity leaders connect with their ideal customers. With a StoryBrand certification under his belt, he’s all about clarifying messages and creating powerful brands that truly resonate. Curt believes that strong branding can change the world for the better, and he approaches every project with a mix of empathy, collaboration, and a dash of fun. 

Free Marketing Assessment
https://www.gowithhumn.com/

About the Host: 

Jennifer Kok has been a business owner for over 25 years and now is a business coach.

She turned her first business into a franchise and successfully sold it 20 years later.  She was passionate about building a business and a family at the same time.

And if you’re ready to go beyond visibility and truly grow your business, I invite you to check out the Earn More Stress Less Growth System. It’s designed to help creative business owners like you increase revenue, improve profits, and finally pay yourself more—without burning out.

You have three options to join, depending on where you're at in your journey—and all of them are built around real-world strategies that work.

3 Keys to Growing a Profitable Business Free Masterclass Replay
And how to fix them so their business can actually support their life

Curious about the Earn More…Stress Less Program?
Here’s the breakdown:
💻 Learn more: Program Info
🎧 Prefer to listen? Podcast episode here
📞 Want to talk it through? Book a call

Transcript

Jennifer Kok (00:01.168)

Hello, Rob and Kurt. Thanks for joining me today.

Curt And Rob (00:05.102)

Thank you.

Jennifer Kok (00:06.714)

You know, you and I, met through a mutual partnership, a mutual friend, and when we kind of connected, your guys' energy is just really fun, and I'm excited to dive into your business and what you guys do.

Curt And Rob (00:19.106)

Yeah, thanks so much for having us. Yeah, it's our pleasure.

Jennifer Kok (00:22.286)

So Rob, let's start with you. Can you give us a little bit of backstory on what you've been doing? Because you two came together as a formal business partnership in January of this year, which we're recording just a few months out. So it's only been about a half a year that you guys have been together. So Rob, let's start with you. Give us kind of your backstory and how you wanted to become an entrepreneur and how you ended up here today.

Curt And Rob (00:45.868)

Yeah.

Yeah, so I started as a graphic designer. That's my background. I'm trained in that. a few jobs along the way doing design work and have spent time both on the corporate side as well as the agency side. So I got a diverse experience on how to work with different businesses. And along the way, started to understand strategy and marketing and customer research and all those things. And about eight or nine years ago, went out on my own doing a solo entrepreneurship with Ram

working on behalf of other agencies and for some companies directly, really doing design strategy, product innovation, brand strategy. And that really opened my eyes to the opportunities that were out there to help smaller businesses, you know, really from a corporate environment or from an agency standpoint, we were getting companies coming in that we couldn't help because they couldn't afford, you know, the work that we were offering. And so really started my own company to start to work with those folks who really

still needed our help, but really couldn't afford maybe a big agency or a large team. So that's really kind of where I came from and then met Kurt and I'll let him tell his backstory and then how we came together last year. Yeah. I actually started in the nonprofit space, had some director level positions in ministry positions. And a lot of it though had to do with communication. It was a lot of inviting people in

Jennifer Kok (02:01.581)

Awesome.

Curt And Rob (02:17.482)

a story, inviting people into a cause, working with diverse audiences, really looking to connect well with people. And then I started a business on the side because nonprofit is, well, it doesn't pay as much, I started, I started.

Jennifer Kok (02:32.409)

No, it's a life of service, not so much paychecks.

Curt And Rob (02:40.366)

So with my kids in mind, I started a business on the side. I really developed a love for small business and entrepreneurship and then several years ago, I decided to step out on my own and have been offering outsource chief marketing officer services, having become a Story Brand Certified Guide and having had quite a bit of experience in marketing and communication.

communications before that. So when Rob and I met, we just recognized that there was a really unique combination of expertise that we started finding was a pretty interesting offering.

Yeah, so part of my background is human centered design as well. And so really what that means is understanding the needs of your customers and identifying those insights. What problem are you solving for them and let that inform their strategy or the design solutions that came up with. So it's very complimentary for the story brand framework where it's, it's centered around the customer and what their need is. And you build a story and messaging around that. So that's, that's where we saw the opportunity to compliment our skills. And we thought, you know, Hey, let's, let's

bring this together we were both on our own and stronger together I think was our idea. I can't remember who came up with it first I think Kurt proposed it to me when we were golfing and saying hey maybe we can do this thing together so we spent a few months building it out and we actually tested it with some of our close

friends and some other folks in the industry to really vet like hey is this is there something here that we can really leverage and bring to market and that's where Human was born.

Jennifer Kok (04:32.464)

That's really cool. you know, as soon as you guys are both telling me your backstory immediately, Rob, I could see the technical stuff, the graphic design, you know, that piece of it. And then Kurt, obviously you being the storyteller, because that's what nonprofit is, right? You have to really tell the story to bring people in. So I can see how your partnership from a business lens is very smart, very strategic. How did you guys meet each other? Where have you been friends or were you just?

collaborators, business people on LinkedIn, you tell us how you guys met each other.

Curt And Rob (05:04.022)

I'll you tell that story. Yeah. So a mutual friend of ours who's also in marketing brought a small group of marketing professionals together. We were both in that mix. think like a year ago. Yeah, about a year ago. so we started hearing each other's background in that initial meeting. And our curiosity was peaked enough where we went out and grabbed coffee just to get to know each other a little bit beyond that initial networking event. And yeah, it grew from there. Yeah, we ended up on

golf course and started toying with this idea until we got to a point where we thought let's actually explore it. Like we didn't start by deciding to start a business together. We started by deciding to explore starting a business together because it takes a shared vision, it takes shared values, it takes a very clear mutual understanding

understanding of what we're offering and if those things weren't in place it wouldn't have been a good thing for us to move forward with so that was how we started. Yeah and I just about a partnership idea too I think that was something we're both you know new to and I talked to some folks who had positive experiences with it and negative experience with it.

Jennifer Kok (06:24.13)

Right, yeah.

Curt And Rob (06:25.026)

doing it to say, okay, you we're getting into this relationship and, and, know, going through the dating phase, right. And understanding like, okay, what, what parameters do we, should we put in place to really allow us to work best together? And so I think, you know, going through that process was really important to be on the same page, have those maybe critical conversations upfront so that we don't get, we're not surprised, you know, once we're into this and, and, know, actually have revenue coming in and all that stuff where I think the, the stress level increased.

So trying to hit some of those off at the pass and really be on the same page from the beginning.

Jennifer Kok (07:01.274)

Which is so smart, because you're right, everybody has an opinion. honestly, I feel like there's this very negative connotation around partnerships. So both of you guys were individual entrepreneurs. both went off on your own. Rob, yours was a little bit longer ago than Kurt, but you guys were doing your thing. At what point, do you guys remember either, whoever wants to speak to this, at what point you thought, this is hard going on your own. Maybe it would be better to bring in a partner. Because I think a lot of us feel lonely out there at times.

And the idea of having someone to bounce ideas off of, to, you know, just really kind of brainstorm, strategize with, and obviously, you know, from what you've shared, your backgrounds really compliment each other. But was there just a gut feeling or was there something going on with one of your businesses where you felt like, you know what, I don't want to do this on my own anymore.

Curt And Rob (07:52.578)

Yeah, you know, it's such a valid point.

When I started out doing Chief Marketing Officer work in a fractional way, I intended to reach out and build a subcontractor base of people that I could bring in for different things. But there was a loneliness involved in that where they weren't really my team. And the clients that I was working with, we had great relationships, but they

They weren't really my team.

I think also just having enough emotional intelligence to understand I'm gifted in some things, but I'm not gifted in other things. And it takes some pretty specific skill sets to succeed. And the combination of those realities coming to light for me after a couple years of being on my own made me interested in searching out and finding someone to do this with.

Yeah, for me, think, go ahead, go ahead,

Jennifer Kok (09:03.872)

Well, I was going say that's really impactful and you nailed it as far as the emotional intelligence and we're not meant to be good at everything and who are we going to surround ourselves and bring into our businesses to help us and you're right. A lot of times the contractors, they're not going to invest in your business at a level that a partner would.

Curt And Rob (09:24.61)

Absolutely. Yeah. And for me, think, you know, I was on my own for about seven years and, but I was working on behalf of other agencies. So I was a part of a team in a different way. So that fulfilled, I think a lot of that where, yeah, we would get together, you know, once a week and kind of go through the process. So I didn't have that gap as much. but then as things kind of slowed down post COVID, I think I actually jumped back into a full-time role for nine months with an organization in a corporate environment to say like, Hey, yeah.

I need to need that community. think we were built for a community in different ways. And so I gave that a shot and realized like I wasn't cut out to be in a corporate environment anymore. So I restarted Ram and that's really the same time we met each other and thought, well, there's, there's a piece of this that I can bring then into this business. have that collaborative piece, have those complimentary skills that we can offer. And, and I think, that's really what I think the initiative for me to like, okay, let's consider this partnership now.

moving forward into this next phase of my career and how we can really take that to the next level.

Jennifer Kok (10:29.424)

Well, and I think especially in a creative type of an industry, it's even more important to have people that you can collaborate with and design with. All right, so let's talk about, you guys obviously went into this with a lot of structure. You mentioned that you talked to people that said, yeah, great idea, not such a great idea, but really gave you some pointers on how to structure your communication, how to make decisions, your roles, all of that. So you got that figured out. You're jumping into a space.

That's very saturated, let's be real. mean, most of us are, right? Most of our businesses are in a saturated space. So you guys had to come up with a way to differentiate yourselves. So Rob, your background is dealing with business to business. Now you're...

more dealing with consumers, like you were supporting agencies. Now you're dealing with businesses that are your actual consumer now, correct? Have you guys kind of found your lane of who you like to serve, or are you still kind of working that out? But you're still early in it. I always feel like that kind of comes as you have a few projects under your belt.

Curt And Rob (11:30.658)

Yeah, no, it's a good question. think we're still trying to figure it out. And I think, you know, at some point we might niche down and identify, okay, here's our sweet spot. But I think part of the process and how we approach any of our projects is very iterative. And it's kind of like, we're prototyping this as we go. So we had an initial thought of like, okay, here's the packages, the offerings we think will resonate. But it kind of goes back to my standpoint of let's go test it with real people and then pivot and adjust as we go. And so I think.

We're still in the middle of that, you know, with being three months old. But we're getting feedback along the way and saying, well, this worked here or this is a good fit for us. This isn't and understanding some of those. I think, I think we're coming to the end of the first quarter. think we've talked about last week of like, let's have a quarterly review. Where are we? What is working? What isn't? And then kind of adjust and go from there. So I think that's just healthy as part of any process, especially from this, you know, from a marketing standpoint, it's reevaluating what we're

doing and having those touch points with real customers so that you're getting that insight because I think a lot of times you can get kind of blinders on and like well here's our path forward you know and a year later you realize wait we're we're veered off course here and so having those touch points both with each other and with our customers are important. I think there's a

Jennifer Kok (12:51.12)

So take a s- go ahead Kurt sorry.

Curt And Rob (12:53.038)

I'm just going say, I think there's a temptation to try to figure everything out in advance. And it leads to like elongating the process and never really getting going. And so as we evaluated initially, how much do we need to know before we start? We determined there's going to be processes that we have to build into this where we step back and say, okay, what have we learned from that

initial phase. How can we adjust? How can we tweak? How can we learn? But we ultimately wanted to get started and we wanted to go out and start serving people.

Jennifer Kok (13:37.54)

Yeah, so, you know, well said. We can't have everything created today because it's going to evolve like you, you know, like you just mentioned and those processes and things are going to come up. So take us through, you had, sorry, are we getting feedback?

Curt And Rob (13:52.334)

think we're good.

Jennifer Kok (13:54.34)

I'll pause a minute and my editor guy can edit us out.

Curt And Rob (13:57.678)

You

Jennifer Kok (14:00.09)

Thank goodness for my editor guy.

Curt And Rob (14:02.008)

Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (14:06.04)

Okay, so take us through your approach. So when you're starting to work with your customers, I know you talk a lot about the human centric, you talk a lot about story brand marketing, which I am a huge, huge Donald Miller fan, and I really want to dive into that too. And this idea of driving authentic growth. These are all buzzwords, they all sound great. Take us through your approach as you know,

Rob and Kurt, how are you servicing your client? What you're looking for? You know, the layers of the onion that you're pulling away for your client and then where you take them.

Curt And Rob (14:43.608)

Well, one of the things that we know from psychology is that the brain is constantly trying to do a couple things. One is it's trying to survive and thrive. So it's constantly evaluating its environment and saying, what in my environment should I attach myself to that's going to allow me to survive or thrive? The other thing it's doing is it's trying to conserve calories. So when there's confusion, when it's unclear what something is, we let go

it. And so we understand the realities of that as it applies to marketing.

The reality is that if you don't have a very clear, cohesive story that begins with your customer, it's gonna be really hard to keep their interest. If it's confusing in any way, they're gone. If it's not clear to them how it helps them survive or thrive, they're gone. So at the very basic level of what we offer, it's attaching itself to

real life principles and realities at work.

Jennifer Kok (15:58.404)

And I think as small businesses, what I see often is we know what we want to do, know, whether we own the pet store or we are a service-based interior designer or a coach consultant, we know what we want to do. We put it all together in our language, and then we go out there and we just push it and assume that everybody's just going to love what we do.

You know, we see that all the time. Everyone's going to love my business as much as I do. And so you're really flipping the script and making sure that we're thinking like the customer. And I think that's really hard to do. Is this, where your background comes in and a little bit more of the technical and the research and asking those right questions?

Curt And Rob (16:23.136)

Yeah.

Curt And Rob (16:38.37)

You're next.

Yeah, absolutely. And what drew me to Storybrand is it does put the customer at the center of the story. And I think it's a great framework and works has proven itself, but I think a lot of businesses, it relies on your intuition of what you know about your customer, which, you know, when you start out is probably a lot, but a lot of companies, you get in the weeds and it starts to veer off course. And so I think it's reminding people about like, Hey, who is the person you're serving and what problem are we solving for them? And letting that,

come to the surface be the foundation of your messaging so that people see themselves in that story and we're like, yeah, that's me. How can you help me? And I need a guide to walk me through this and I think that's compelling. I mean, I stories prove in itself over history, right? You get sucked into a story. You're gonna see how it gets resolved. And I think that's even, you know, a simple way to look at how your website works, right? Like, if you can suck them in and understand it, they're gonna scroll down, you know, and understand.

your business even more. They're not just gonna look at it and jump off. So I think that's where, you my standpoint comes in is let's do all that we can to understand that customer so that we can validate what you know about them and really kind of take the guesswork out of the framework is how we like to say it and have those touch points with real customers along the way. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be, you know, a six-month research campaign. It can just be, you know, talking to five to six of your customers, sitting down with them for 30 to 45 minutes and really

understand their motivation behind their behavior and what problems are they really facing and that's really I think where those insights come to life and what you can really connect with them at a different level than just maybe a survey or anecdotal you know comments on Google reviews right it's it's asking those why questions I think that really I think opens up the insights that that really helped drive some of that messaging.

Jennifer Kok (18:34.116)

You know, I'm guilty of not doing that enough, not only in my brick and mortar bakery that I owned for 20 years, but even what I do today. I think we get kind of hung up there as small business owners. So do you kind of do that for them? Is that part of your process? You'll meet with their customers on their behalf, or do you have a system that you feel works best?

Curt And Rob (18:53.195)

Absolutely.

Yeah, so I've got a lot of experience going and doing in-time context research across the globe, really. And we'll sit down with folks in their homes. I think that's a comfortable environment. think, you know, focus groups are great, but it doesn't feel comfortable for a lot of people. And there's a tendency, you know, for group think to take over. So I think I found the best is to just sit with somebody one-on-one in a comfortable environment and ask them questions and get them comfortable talking. think it's something

we take on, we can do it remotely now, you know, with the technology we have. And I think what we try to do is remove the client from those conversations as much as we can. We record them, we'll transcript them so we can share back with them. They can see it. But I think once you remove yourself from those conversations, think customers are more open to share honestly and not feel like they're offending, you know, a company or a spokesperson or anything like that. So that's some of the rules I think we put in place.

to help customers feel comfortable and share really what they're thinking and then we can package that up to still it down so that the client can really leverage those insights quickly and not have to sift through hours of interviews.

Jennifer Kok (20:11.6)

You know, that is really powerful and I would encourage everybody listening to really think about when was the last time you really deep dived with a customer or your client? And really, like you said, ask the questions and really understood where they're coming from. I think once again, as business owners, we think we've got it figured out and we just, you know, we run with what we think we know. So now, Kurt, you said you got certified in Storybrand. For those that aren't super familiar with Storybrand, take us through that concept.

and really the basis of that.

Curt And Rob (20:43.978)

Absolutely, so it was developed by Donald Miller He is an expert storyteller himself. He wrote blue like jazz and then made a foray into marketing Which makes sense. It's a marketing is about storytelling But what he understood was that when you engage somebody in a story you You invite them into

the whole part of the story. if.

If you're watching a movie, for example, and you recognize that there's a problem that's come up, all of a sudden, you're interested in knowing what's the conclusion of this. Like if there's never a problem that was introduced, it would be boring. Like nobody would be interested. The story begins when the character encounters a problem. what he did was he allowed, Donald Miller allowed

I would...

for there to actually be some structure around this. And so he developed a seven part framework that identifies the character, the problem they encounter, and then the business comes alongside as the guide to the character who's encountered this problem and offers them empathy and authority, but also a really clear, simple plan. Also, the other component is there has to be

Curt And Rob (22:19.272)

really clear definition of what success is and what failure looks like. If the guide is giving them a plan, the motivation for the character is to achieve success rather than failure. So with those seven components, if a business can very clearly identify what those are,

related to what they offer, then you're able to leverage that as a really clear cohesive story to engage your customers in.

Jennifer Kok (22:56.016)

So it all goes back to the initial conversation with your customers to really pinpoint what they're tripping up on and what you can help them and then take them through this seven frame, seven step framework.

Curt And Rob (23:08.718)

A lot of times, I think we start with what they know. So we'll draft out the framework. We're like, okay, yeah, what do you know about it? How do you fill in these gaps? And then we'll go validate it with customers and say like, okay, is this really the problem they're solving? Is this how they're emotionally dealing with their problem? Or, you know, what's their philosophical thought about why this is happening? Cause I mean, again, a lot of the folks when you start a business, do you pretty have a good understanding of what those customer are? Cause you probably are one or were one.

And I think it's just a matter of like, let's validate this with real people and use that so that we're not building that foundation with some gaps. And I think that's part of how we structure working with folks is let's start with that foundational layer and then build off that.

Jennifer Kok (23:51.92)

You know, it reminds me of a client I had. She started a fashion boutique, a consignment resale fashion boutique. But her business model is everybody donates items to her. She sells them, and then she donates 30 % to local charities in her area. She, for the first three years of her business, thought that people were coming to her and buying from her because they also cared about the charities that she was donating to. Because she was so passionate about it.

That was her business model. That's how she started. That was all her marketing. And what was interesting is we did what you're talking about at a top level, not as deep as you guys go. And what we learned was that most of the people didn't even realize that was happening. They were coming into this, you know, unique boutique of used items. They were there because yes, sustainability was important to them. They didn't want things going in the landfill. They wanted to repurpose.

Curt And Rob (24:36.674)

Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (24:49.326)

But more importantly, they just want a cheap fashion.

Curt And Rob (24:51.662)

It's a deal. That's what they want. That's right.

Jennifer Kok (24:54.126)

That's what they wanted and she had no idea. So for three years she was marketing incorrectly to her community. And this is exactly what you guys would probably come in and prevent from happening hopefully before three years down the road.

Curt And Rob (25:10.329)

A lot of times we step in at that three year point, we're like, why isn't this working? And kind of holding up that mirror and taking an assessment of like, well, actually there's a gap here, right? Like what you understand and what the customer actually is looking for. yeah, so yeah, totally. That's a great, great example.

Jennifer Kok (25:16.036)

Right.

Jennifer Kok (25:28.794)

So are you guys full service? Are you helping people with everything from social to email to websites to blogs, all of the elements? Or are you guys specializing in just certain areas of marketing?

Curt And Rob (25:40.216)

Well, one of the things that we do is we help a client get very clear on who their customer is and what their story is that they're telling. That's usually where we start. But then what we truly offer is a simple, confident plan.

So there's hundreds of things that people can do in marketing and it becomes very overwhelming. So there's a lot of marketers out there or business owners who are inundated with Here's a strategy to try here's a strategy to try But what we do is we we come alongside and with our free assessment. We're able to very quickly understand Where their strengths and weaknesses are across nine different key points?

And that's really low-hanging fruit if they're able to focus on strengthening up those those layers Then they have a much better chance of connecting with with their audience That said we do offer a number of different services as well So yeah, once we set that kind of roadmap and that strategy in place I think most of the time specific things will come out of that right will evaluate. Okay, how's your website work now?

against this framework and against this messaging. And a lot of times we can help update that or rebrand or shift your social content. think our skill sets are diverse, but there is a limit to them. So we'll bring in other experts in specific areas like SEO or social content, paid social, writing. We have folks that we trust that we'll bring into the mix if those opportunities and needs arise. But yeah, like Kurt said,

At the end of the line, we're selling clarity and confidence for people to know like, okay, I have a direction, I have a plan. And if we need to help them execute that, we will. But that's really at the end of the day, we want them to have a clear plan and something they can follow and measure along the way.

Jennifer Kok (27:45.326)

Yeah, you had me at simple, confident plan. That sounds amazing, because you're right. Marketing's overwhelming, and I think we do a lot of throw spaghetti at the wall. We hear a podcast. We read an article. I got to go try that without really thinking of the whole plan and the strategy behind it. So tell me how you came up with your name, Human Marketing Design. And I love how it's spelled H-U-M-N.

Curt And Rob (27:48.096)

Thank

Curt And Rob (28:03.448)

Thanks.

Curt And Rob (28:07.936)

Yeah, mean, I think it goes back to my background and understanding like.

At the end of the day, business is about human to human. It's not B to C, it's not B to B, it's human to human interactions. think distilling that down as clearly as possible is what we were trying to do with it. And I think it's something that hopefully is memorable and it's obvious about how we differentiate our approach from a human-centered marketing standpoint. yeah, that was, think we kind of like the name, the simplicity of it, and found it worked for how we wanted to communicate,

how we were differentiating ourselves.

Jennifer Kok (28:45.744)

Well, I really love your guys' energy. I love your authenticity. I love how you are really so focused on, like you said, the human element, the customer. It's just really refreshing. So thank you so much for sharing your background, sharing how you came together. I know there's a lot that goes into building businesses and building partnerships. And I believe you too are on your way to being.

doing something very successful. If someone's listening today, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you and what would be the next step if they wanted to learn more about your services?

Curt And Rob (29:18.542)

Well, one thing I would say is that we spell human, H-U-M-N. So we take the A out of human, so they can easily find us on our website. That's gowithhuman, humanwithouttheA.com.

Yeah, and like Kurt said, think if we reach out, we also offer a free marketing assessment for people to take. It's simple, about 30 questions, takes you about five, 10 minutes, and it generates a full 40 page report that is also free. And it just kind of gives you a snapshot of how you're doing any marketing. And so that's a great starting point for people. if people are interested, they can reach out through our website and we'll send that link over and walk through it with them. You know, one of the things we didn't talk about before,

this but we offer a consult that comes following that assessment and we usually charge some for that but for any of your listeners we'd be happy to throw that in for free.

Jennifer Kok (30:17.2)

Awesome. Well, what a great tool, the free marketing assessment. I mean, I would encourage everyone to take advantage of that because it changes, it evolves, and our businesses evolve. And we really need to make sure that we are focusing and changing and adapting as we go. thank you guys so much. Love your story. Love your business. I'm super, I'm to be your biggest cheerleader. And I just really appreciate you coming on and kind of sharing with us. I feel like the key takeaway from today is,

We all have to take our business owner lenses off and put on our customer lenses. And that's a great reminder. So thank you so much for joining me.

Curt And Rob (30:54.382)

Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you.