Episode 46: Stop Waiting, Start Doing: Carla Flanders on Pivoting, Producing, and Publishing

 From pivoting during a career crossroads to creating something meaningful and profitable, Carla shares what it really takes to take action—even when the future feels uncertain.

Today’s guest is someone who wears a lot of hats — and wears them all with purpose. Carla Flanders is the founder of CMF Marketing & Events, a West Michigan-based business that blends traditional marketing with large-scale event production. You’re going to love this conversation about what it means to pivot, evolve, and finally say yes to that idea you’ve been sitting on for way too long. Let’s dive in.

 What You’ll Learn:

• The unique combination of skills that help her stand out in the marketing + events world
• Why she launched CMF Marketing 2.0 after a pandemic pivot
• A behind-the-scenes look at managing events with 60,000+ attendees
• The story behind her brand-new event: Girlfriends Getaway Weekend
• What inspired her to self-publish her graduation-themed keepsake book
• Real talk about entrepreneurship: navigating burnout, creativity, and long-term sustainability
  
  

Meet Our Guest:

Carla M. Flanders, founder of CMF Marketing & Events, a West Michigan-based company that specializes in strategic marketing, project management, and event coordination for businesses and non-profit organizations. 

https://cmfmarketing.org

https://www.girlfriendsgetaway.org/

https://www.michiganmakersmarket.org

https://onthedayyougraduate.com

Meet your Host: 

Jennifer Kok has been a business owner for over 25 years and now is a business coach. She turned her first business into a franchise and successfully sold it 20 years later.  She was passionate about building a business and a family at the same time.

I help Women Entrepreneurs who are in year 2+ who are building businesses and families to grow with Clarity, Confidence, and Consistent Profits.  The reality is you’ve built a Business You’re Proud Of -But It’s Time for it to work for you.

The Earn More Stress Less 9-Pillar Blueprint helps women entrepreneurs with families create profitable, sustainable businesses that finally pay them back — in money, time, and peace of mind.

Join me for a Free Online Workshop:
3 Steps to Boost Profitability: Strategic Shifts to Help Small Business Owners Make More Money.   If you want more profits follow this link to register. 

https://nextwavebusinesscoaching.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nextwavewithjen
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nextwavewithjen/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferowenskok
YouTube: http://bit.ly/2M9uX6S

You’ve Built a Business You’re Proud Of -But It’s Time for It to Work for You. You’re still wearing all the hats, working long hours, and not paying yourself what you deserve. You know there’s more possible. More profit, more clarity, and more freedom to enjoy the life you’re building.  The Earn More Stress Less 9-Pillar Blueprint helps women entrepreneurs with families create profitable businesses that finally pay them back. 

Transcript

Jennifer Kok (00:01.112)

Hello, Carla, welcome. I'm so excited to talk with you today. You and I are paths crossed a few years ago at a local networking. You are in West Michigan as well as I. And one thing I remembered about you is I just called you the Posty Note Girl.

Carla Flanders (00:03.374)

Hi.

Carla Flanders (00:08.944)

Mm-hmm.

Carla Flanders (00:16.848)

What are you talking about?

Jennifer Kok (00:19.182)

You know, you find another thr- you know, thriver of Posty Notes, honestly, I love Posty Notes whenever I'm creating content. That's how I- my mind works. I put one little subject per Posty Note and I plaster them all over my office doors, which my family looks at me and says, what are you doing?

Carla Flanders (00:33.04)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yep, I know. And I also have like little sayings too around me that are like little words of inspiration and notes. And so like this one says, the fire inside me burns brighter than the fire around me. And this is good for entrepreneurship. So we can get into that as we talk.

Jennifer Kok (00:56.306)

I love it, I love it. So tell us for those that don't know you or are new to your world, tell us what you do.

Carla Flanders (01:02.998)

So my company is CMF Marketing and Events, I do marketing, traditional marketing, social media. I also do project management for companies that just need somebody to jump in and help out with their marketing or big project. And then I do events as well. So those are kind of my three categories that I focus in on. And then I have a couple little passion projects that I'm working on as well.

Jennifer Kok (01:29.602)

Wow, you are a busy girl. You've got a lot on your plate. No wonder you need to have that inspirational Post-It note about don't worry about the fire around you. So how did you get started? Take us back to what you were doing. When did you first start this business?

Carla Flanders (01:34.384)

Right, right,

Carla Flanders (01:44.142)

Yeah, so I've been around West Michigan most of my entire life. I grew up in Grand Rapids and I ended up moving to the lake shore. And while I was at the lake shore, worked at the Tulip Time Festival for about eight years. And you know,

It was just time for me to do something different, right? And it was really challenging to find a job on the lake shore that fit my skill set and that my, that I was passionate about. So I thought I was getting all these little side jobs and I'm like, well, maybe I'll just start my own business. My dad did it. My grandma did it before that. It's a generational thing. I thought, well, I already have some clients in my pocket. So let me get this going. So that's when I started what I call CMF marketing.

1.0. And so I did that from about 2010 to 2015. And during that time, the Muskegon Lakeshore Chamber of Commerce contracted me to do two big projects. One was the launch of the Watch Muskegon campaign, which was a very big promotional campaign along the Lakeshore. And the second was the Lakeshore Art Festival. And so I was doing that work on a contract basis. And then finally, they're like, do you want to just

Jennifer Kok (02:32.843)

Hahaha

Carla Flanders (03:00.464)

Be our VP of marketing. Like we need you here. We want you to be a part of the team. And I was like, okay. So I ended up working at the Muskegon chamber from 2015 to 2020. I loved the work there. It was a great organization and then 2020 happened. Right. So at that time, everything was changing. I don't need to go into too much detail about that. I'm sure your watchers know what fun that was. So

Jennifer Kok (03:23.209)

Right.

Carla Flanders (03:27.83)

Then I found myself looking for job again and it was the same thing. It's like I'd either have to travel to Grand Rapids or far distance and my kids were younger where they went sports and I was like, I just don't want to do that anymore. I'm done with that. So I decided to do CMF marketing 2.0. So that was five years ago. all together, it's been 10 years that I've had CMF marketing. I absolutely love what I do. I love...

being able to work on projects that kind of mean something to me too, you know, and I'm at a point where I can kind of pick and choose, which makes me really, really happy to be able to do that. And I'm always looking for another new, just client, you know, just here or there, because my business is kind of broken down as follows. I have a certain amount, I would say, now it's more like 50-50, but it varies, where it's just,

On retainer, monthly retainer, straight marketing help, guidance, production, all that stuff. And then the other 50 % is events. So obviously with events, those ebb and flow, right? So an event as a certain time of year. So during that time, things are really hectic, but then when the event's done, it's done. So I've done large scale events like the Lakeshore Art Festival, which at its peak before COVID brought about 60,000 guests to.

Jennifer Kok (04:53.931)

wow.

Carla Flanders (04:54.576)

downtown Muskegon, 50 to 60,000 guests. And then I do smaller events, but kind of the sweet spot lately is between two and 300 people at the event. And then some of the smaller ones are like more business related ones, maybe 20, 30, 40, 50 people. But I do work for the Muskegon Rotary here in town, the Muskegon Community Foundation.

I still do work with a lot of the organizations related to the chamber. So it's just really good to still be connected. And I always feel like I'm in this trifecta. I'm from Grand Rapids. I worked in Holland for about 10 years. I live in the Muskegon area. So I, you know, can do work in any of those zones.

Jennifer Kok (05:40.437)

I guess so, and you picked a beautiful place to live, especially this time of year. We're recording this in June when it's almost 90 degrees. And for those that are not from Michigan, Lake Michigan is absolutely beautiful. I mean, we are so blessed with where we live.

Carla Flanders (05:54.318)

Yeah, it's literally, I live five minutes from Lake Michigan. I'm so thankful for where we live. mean, coming from Grand Rapids, it's not that it's that big of a move. can still, it's only 25, 35 minutes to Grand Rapids, but being so close to the lake, it's just amazing. And I absolutely love where we live. Love it.

Jennifer Kok (06:11.605)

Yeah. So a lot of your work, like you said, about 50 % of it is event focused. It seems like it's more community focused. Like you've been really ingrained in those nonprofit or the community, like you said, Chamber and Tulip Time and all of our festivals. Did that just naturally come to you from your connections, do you feel?

Carla Flanders (06:27.268)

Yeah.

Carla Flanders (06:32.748)

It kind of did. I always knew I had a passion for events. But I didn't know that you could actually make a career out of it. There really wasn't. I remember kind of growing up in Grand Rapids and this is going to age me maybe. But it was when they were, you know, building the Van Andel Arena and doing all that stuff. I at the time, like there just wasn't the kind of events that there was now. And I remember thinking in college, like it'd be so cool to be like,

the event person for a big thing like Van Andel, right? But I didn't think that that was a possibility. So I went more the safe route and I was doing the marketing and honestly, my major was communications and environmental science. So I really wanted to get into the more of the environmental communication aspect of things. Oh, and I had a minor in Spanish. So people are like, what are you going do with that? Well, right after college, I actually did work with AmeriCorps and

I was working with groundwater education with migrant farm workers all over West Michigan. So it incorporated all of my skillsets and what I went to school for, but it's AmeriCorps. It's a 10 to 12 month stint. Very, very low pay, if any pay at all. And so I realized I can't survive doing this, but I will say AmeriCorps is awesome and I hope that it comes back. And I won't get into any more about that, but you guys can Google it.

So I did that and then I realized I'm just gonna stick more with marketing and I got associated with an events company out of Chicago, did some local events and then just went down this marketing path until I was at Tool of Time and then CMF Marketing.

Jennifer Kok (08:19.829)

Yeah. Isn't it interesting how a lot of us, as we start our small businesses, we start out with this one idea in mind, but then doors close and doors open. And for you, the doors were opening to put on these large events. mean, putting on an event for 60,000 people, that is no joke. So are you a team of one, or do you have like a super woman cape on or like, take us, take us through these large events. Are you planning years in advance?

Carla Flanders (08:45.264)

Right.

Yes, yes. So every large event, I work with a team, but it depends on what the event is, so who the team is. for example, Lakeshore Art Festival definitely did not do that by myself, had an amazing team. I mean, at that event, we had 350 exhibitors. So that was fine art, that was craft, food vendors, children's lane, logistics. So in all those categories I just listed off, we had people helping in those areas.

And so yeah, that was an amazing team. And right now the City Muskegon is doing that because during the whole 2020 fallout, know, things shifted and then the City Muskegon took over that. And I did work with them for two years, but I did that for 10 years. So I decided that, you know, again, it was just time for me to do something different. It's all in the same vein. It's just, you know, sometimes it's nice to start something from scratch and to just watch it grow. So

which is another, that other project that I'm working on that I'm gonna get to here in a minute too. So with each event, again, just depends on the client, who I'm working with, and how many volunteers we need. in the fall, I do an event that will be coming up in October with the Muskegon Rotary. It's called the Harvest Fest. There's about 200 to 300 people that attend that. And so we have a great group of volunteers with Rotary, but that's a fun event at the Culinary Institute of Michigan. I don't know if you've ever been

Jennifer Kok (10:16.859)

fun. No.

Carla Flanders (10:17.65)

in there, but it's right downtown Muskegon. It's part of Baker College and it's the Culinary Institute. So we do it at that facility. Anyone's invited to come. is a fundraiser, so tickets are $80, but you get all you can eat food at the different food stations, all crafted by the students there at the Culinary Institute. There's a cash bar. There's a silent auction, live music, you know, all that good stuff, but it's a really unique experience. So.

Jennifer Kok (10:45.184)

Yeah, I love that. So that's got to be really fun and probably, you know, we always say entrepreneurs, have the shiny object syndrome, right? Where we're always wanting to do something next or what's the next big thing. But for you, your creative juices get to flow with the ideas and the additions that you can add into these events. How fun.

Carla Flanders (11:02.574)

Right, right. And so as I kind of alluded to earlier, people generally contract me to do an event or do marketing or do, and that's, think, what my skill set is. There's people that can just do events and there's people that can just do marketing, but there's not a lot of people out there that can do both, that can look at the event, can look at what is happening and say, okay, this is our target audience. This is how we need to market to them. I have a lot of good connections in the media in West Michigan. you know, sending out press releases,

talking to the media, doing all that. Plus, logistically looking at this event, okay, how many people are gonna be there? What do we need? How many cups? How many drinks? How many, you know, all these little things. And I love to look at that big picture and just like, it's like a puzzle to me. Like put it all together and try to make it work. And the biggest pleasure for me is to watch people have fun at an event that I've produced. Like I absolutely love that. It just makes me so happy.

Jennifer Kok (12:00.792)

That's so cool. So you've really found your sweet spot. I love how you said that. Your focus was marketing or is marketing. Your focus was events, is events. And you found a way to partner those two together to kind of build a business off of that. And I love how you said that made you unique because I feel like that's so important. We talk about it all the time. How do we stand out? What's our differentiator? What have you seen with events post-COVID? Because you jumped back into your business. I'm sure.

These past five years have been very different than the first five years. Where are you seeing differences when it comes to building out these events and for business owners out there that might want to do an event for their own purposes for marketing or celebration, grand opening, anniversary, that kind of thing? What are you seeing?

Carla Flanders (12:43.46)

Right. Yeah.

think fortunately the attendance is or was on the upswing from 2020 obviously. those first two years, 2020, 21, 22 were rough and numbers were still quite low. But numbers are coming back, which is good. I think this is again a side story, but I think economically people are bracing a little bit more this year. So maybe travel might, events and things like that.

people might think about more. But in general, think that they've definitely gone up. What has changed, though, and since COVID and just with what's going on in the world today is security. Just thinking about how big is the event? Are you going to be closing streets down? What type of security do you need at those streets? Do you need gates? Do you need roadblocks? So that's obviously for an outdoor event. For indoor events, you know, the same thing, you know,

people coming in depending on what type of event it is.

is there gonna be a troublemaker? Is there somebody that's gonna do something that you're gonna have to escort out? And just thinking about those things, you know, it's worrisome, but it's also part of the risk, I guess, you take when you do events. So.

Jennifer Kok (14:06.722)

That's interesting. That's just part of our culture now, isn't it? Now you have to have probably, as the event planner and producer, have a bigger budget for security and people that are experts in that area to support you so you don't have to worry. So that's interesting. I didn't even think about that, but I can see. I can see why that is.

Carla Flanders (14:09.881)

I know.

Carla Flanders (14:15.3)

Yeah.

Carla Flanders (14:20.662)

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And especially like if there's, know, you had to get a liquor license or there's drinking involved, if you have to wristband people, you know, making sure that people are trained properly to identify, looking at people's IDs and making sure that they're legit and all that stuff. if somebody drank too much, escorting them out of the event as well.

Jennifer Kok (14:42.359)

Yeah.

Carla Flanders (14:45.55)

There's a lot of little things like that, but, you know, I'd say 99 % of the people that are there are there to have fun and enjoy themselves and nobody wants drama. So find those events where alcohol is involved is it heightens that just a little bit, but, you know, it's, it's generally all good. Knock on wood.

Jennifer Kok (15:08.238)

Well, yeah, and you mentioned the economic piece of what we're living in this year. And I've been talking to a lot of small business owners that are sharing. They feel, where are the people? They're not.

showing up in my business as much, they're not willing to spend the money, even restaurants, local restaurants were talking about that recently because people are cooking at home more, you just some of those things. But at the end of the day too, I see this need to reconnect, I see this need to get out of our homes, you know, people love that. And so when you can go to these.

outdoor type festivals that are usually free for admittance. You just go and support the vendors that are there. I would feel like now would be even a really prime time to build out these type of events.

Carla Flanders (15:44.88)

Okay.

Carla Flanders (15:51.79)

Yeah, we'll see how the summer goes too. think, from, work a lot, I work closely with the visitors bureau and the chamber on different things. And we'll, I haven't seen what the projections are for the summer, but I anticipate based on weather and I'm in a Lakeshore community that things are going to be good. I think they're going to be just fine. But from a small business owner perspective, a lot of these cuts that are happening,

And that's what I was alluding to with AmeriCorps. AmeriCorps funding was cut. They employed, sort of, but not really, because they didn't get paid that much. They were mostly volunteers. Thousands of people across the country that were doing things for our community that are no longer doing these things for the community. And so my client base is a lot of nonprofits. Well, their funding has been cut. And so I don't know. have two major clients that I've done.

events for every year and I don't know if they're going to contract me again next year because of their funding cuts. So you could argue any side you want to argue, but I'm just telling you from my perspective, the way that things are going with the economy is worrisome to me because it's affecting my clients, which then

obviously affects if they need to use me or not or want to use me or if they're gonna bring it internally and have somebody, they're not gonna hire somebody else to do it, they're just not gonna hire anybody to do it.

Jennifer Kok (17:09.302)

Right.

Jennifer Kok (17:17.184)

Right. Yeah, the trickle down effect definitely is impacting small businesses. And you're right, when things get crunched like that, small business owners tend to bring it back in house, do it themselves, and just figure out a way to grind it out until things get a little bit better. Now, that's a really fair point. But for you then, do you like the fact that you can lean on your marketing a little bit more and having that reoccurring revenue that's a little more steady?

Carla Flanders (17:20.271)

Yeah.

Carla Flanders (17:28.502)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Carla Flanders (17:38.064)

Yes, yes. That's why I have the business model the way I do is I have a certain amount of events and then certain amount of just straight marketing on that retainer. And then what I was going to say earlier is I've shifted my business model just a little bit. I generally wait for other people to contract me, but this year, and I've been wanting to do this for a really long time, I am starting my own event as a production of CMF Marketing.

It's called Girlfriends Getaway Weekend. And it's going to be a whole weekend of fun in Muskegon, in downtown Muskegon, November 14, 15, 16. And essentially how it's going to go is on Friday night, people will check in, they'll get a swag bag. And then I don't know if you or any of your followers here have been to the Muskegon Museum of Art, but it is a phenomenal. They just had like a

Huge renovation. I think it was maybe $14 million renovation. It was huge.

Jennifer Kok (18:40.29)

Wow.

Carla Flanders (18:41.324)

So that Friday night we're going to do a cocktail reception at the Art Museum and that's part of the fee of being part of the Girlfriends Weekend. Saturday during the day we're going to have, we're bringing back Michigan Makers Market. So that was another event that I created when I was at Lakeshore Art Festival and it's an indoor fine art and fine craft event. 80 vendors in the new Van Dyke Mortgage Convention Center downtown Muskegon. So they can go shopping at that. We're going to have different interactive

where they could do like permanent jewelry or trucker hat bars. And then we have Kaylin Sheik from Sweetwater Floral. you? Isn't she amazing?

Jennifer Kok (19:19.52)

Yes, I met her. Yes! She is amazing. I love her. I got to see her speak at a retreat I was at.

Carla Flanders (19:28.076)

Yes, so she is going to be coming down and doing her wreath making workshop during that Saturday of the event as well. So you can sign up for that and you've met her, you know her energy level, you know she is amazing. that's like Saturday and then in the evening people can grab a bite to eat. There's going to be plenty of other activities going on. I won't tell you every single thing, but then Sunday, you know, people will get up. We're going to have...

Bloody Mary Bar breakfast and mimosa brunch and all that good stuff. that's the short version of it. As a matter of fact, the websites just launched today for Girlfriend's Getaway Weekend as well as the Michigan Makers Market. right now, depending on when this...

Jennifer Kok (20:04.342)

Yay!

Carla Flanders (20:14.48)

airs. We're looking for exhibitors until August 1 for the Michigan Makers Market. And then we'll just be looking for people to attend the event in November, November 15th, downtown Muskegon, $5 to get in to the Michigan Makers Market. There will be a fee to participate in the Girlfriends Getaway.

Jennifer Kok (20:33.014)

Right. I love that. How fun. I, you know, it's funny lately, I've been hearing more and more about ladies retreats, girlfriends retreats. Like, I feel like we are also busy as women, business owners, corporate moms, whatever, all the hats we're wearing. And we really kind of need someone to organize us to say, hey, it's okay to take a weekend away with your friends and go do something just for yourself.

Carla Flanders (20:49.328)

Mm-hmm.

Carla Flanders (20:55.588)

Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (20:59.308)

I'm wondering if that's where the popularity of this is coming from because otherwise we have a hard time doing that.

Carla Flanders (21:04.624)

I think you're absolutely right. And the cool thing about this too is it's gonna be multi-generational. So whether you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, we have some friends that are becoming with the grandma, the mom, and the daughter. it's really exciting. just to get away, even if you're in West Michigan, a lot of people in West Michigan might not have been in downtown Muskegon recently. And it's completely different than what it was 10, 15 years ago. So come on down, check it out. We're also inviting people

Jennifer Kok (21:29.784)

Sure.

Carla Flanders (21:34.678)

from all over the country to attend this event as well. So I anticipate we'll get some people, a lot of people from the Midwest region for this first one. And Kaylin has such an amazing following that I think it's gonna be a lot of fun, a lot of fun.

Jennifer Kok (21:47.68)

Yeah, absolutely. So tell me why you decided it was time for you to produce your own event instead of working for somebody else.

Carla Flanders (21:56.132)

That's a good question. I think part of it is I'm just worried about the economy and people contracting me to do things. And I needed to create my own source of revenue generation, not contingent on another entity hiring me. That was one thing. The second thing is I have been thinking about doing this for like 10 years. And

Jennifer Kok (22:04.14)

Okay.

Carla Flanders (22:20.62)

as you can probably tell I'm a doer. So I just thought, well, I guess now is as good a time as any. So I'm just gonna do it. And I have a team that I'm working with for this, again, not doing this alone. A lot of volunteers, a lot of women that kind of, just, you know how things sometimes just come together. I was speaking with one of my friends about this idea and she's like, my gosh, I've been talking to Kaylin about coming down to do this wreath event. And I was like,

Jennifer Kok (22:39.297)

Yes.

Carla Flanders (22:48.516)

Hello, let's combine the two and let's do it. So that was amazing too.

Jennifer Kok (22:53.442)

love how, like you said, you are being proactive because you're not sure, a little unsure of maybe what's to come. And you're just adapting to the times. And you're like, here we go. So that is so cool. So yes, definitely I'll put the link in the show notes because I'm excited about that. So in addition, you also added author to your resume. Tell us about that project.

Carla Flanders (23:06.736)

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so this is another thing that I have been thinking about doing for a while. So first I'll show you the book is called On the Day You Graduate. And it is a very short book that I'm won't, I'm not gonna go through the whole thing, but essentially it's, it is a story about a child growing up and going through different phases in their life. And I wanted to just show you some of the imagery because it's gender neutral.

And it's applicable to anybody ages 0 to 18 basically. And it was based on a little poem that I wrote for my son when he graduated. And I just kind of kept it tucked away and just sat on it for a while. And then when my second son graduated, I took it and I laid it out at his graduation and had people sign around it so it could be like a keepsake.

And then I started thinking about it. I was like, did a bunch of research. was like, there isn't anything like this on the market where it's a graduation type book, where towards the back end of this, there are pages where the student could write their memories of school, their future dreams, all of these things. And then the last few pages is where teachers, parents, friends can write their hopes and dreams for the child. And,

Carla Flanders (24:36.676)

there's not anything like it on the market. So I thought, maybe I could put this together as a book, you know, and put it out there. So I worked with an agency to help me put the book together. I self-published it, but worked with a company and an illustrator to make it happen. And it just came out this spring. So it's pretty new for me. And I say it's ages zero to 18, because it's a great graduation gift, but it's also great for those young readers, new moms.

and kids just going into school because what they can do is at the back end of it, they could have the teacher write a little note each year. First grade, Johnny was great. Second grade, Johnny excelled. And then at the end, it could be a keepsake for that student and all their teachers could write a little note in it.

Jennifer Kok (25:22.644)

I love that, especially in this digital world. I feel like we take photos, we write things, we send texts, and it just gets lost. And I love how that is something tangible that you can take for years to come. What a beautiful idea. So Carla, you are definitely a go-getter. You are very inspiring. Just the fact, anybody listening who's sitting on the fence thinking, I want to write a book, I think Carla's your nudge to go do it. Or thinking fast forward, what is the next look?

Carla Flanders (25:29.359)

Yup.

that

Jennifer Kok (25:51.531)

year look like for your business and if you're concerned about something don't wait for it to happen you know take Carla's nudge here and think about what can I do to make this next year better and do I need to pivot a little bit do I need to tweak something or in your case add your own event so thank you so much for sharing your story you are very inspirational very fun and I am definitely going to look into girlfriend's weekend you had me at Bloody Mary Bar and Mimosa

Carla Flanders (26:19.504)

I

Love it, love it. Well, thank you so much for having me. This was a pleasure speaking with you and a lot of fun. And I wish you great luck in this year to come too, because we know you got to keep grinding. That's what it's about.

Jennifer Kok (26:35.948)

That's what it's about. And it's funny how you talk to small business owners and it seems like we always talk about the grit, the resistance, the grind, and we forget to talk about the benefit, the win. And you know, the wins are sometimes not tangible. They are freedom and flexibility. You know, they're being able to see all those faces of people that show up at your events. For me, it's when my clients get these double digit growth wins. I mean, that's the wins.

The daily sometimes isn't so exciting and can be the grind, but the big picture is why we do what we do. sometimes we forget to mention that. thanks for sharing how awesome your business is. I love that you created a 2.0 version. And I will put all the links to connect with Carla and find out about her events and get her book. I will put all that in the show notes. So thanks for being here.

Carla Flanders (27:10.928)

Absolutely.

Carla Flanders (27:16.304)

you

Carla Flanders (27:25.434)

Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.