Episode 60: Stop Chasing Leads: Build a Referral-Only Business with Relationships, Not Ads

If you’ve ever felt like you can’t compete with big brands, massive ad budgets, and the constant pressure to “do more marketing,” this episode will feel like a deep exhale.

Jennifer sits down with referral expert, TedX speaker, entrepreneur and author of Referrals Done Right, Scott Grates, to talk about how he built multiple seven-figure businesses almost entirely on referrals.

Scott breaks down his 5 S’s referral framework, why schools are his “secret sauce,” and how ANY small business owner (even social introverts who hate networking events) can build a long-game referral engine in just five minutes a day.

Whether you’re a Main Street business, a local service provider, or just tired of feeling behind on marketing trends, this conversation will help you humanize your marketing and make relationships your strongest growth strategy.

In This Episode, We Cover:
Scott’s  beginning.  How losing his job in the 2008 financial crisis, two babies in diapers, and “rice and beans” pushed him to find a smarter way to grow.

Why traditional marketing was failing him.
The moment he went all-in on referrals.  Looking at his numbers, seeing referrals as the clear outlier in ROI and quality, and having the courage to cut other marketing… even when revenue dipped short-term.

The 5 S’s: Scott’s Core Referral Groups
Small Businesses – Going after the “geese,” not just the golden eggs: building relationships with businesses already serving your ideal customers.

Schools – His secret sauce: being present for juniors and seniors as future customers, employees, and referral partners.

Service Groups – Chambers, nonprofits, civic and service organizations full of super-connectors.

Star Customers – Turning your happiest customers into your volunteer sales team by delivering “wow” experiences.

Social Media – Using social to spotlight others and show up as a real human in your community, not a faceless brand.

Key Takeaways for Local Service Providers
Referrals Done Right = Relationships Done Right
Start small or you’ll quit.
Your best customers are your best sales team
Long-game strategies can actually accelerate your growth
Meet our Guest:
Scott Grates is a multi-business owner, TedX speaker, insurance agency founder, entrepreneur and referral expert, and author of Referrals Done Right. Starting his first business after losing his corporate job in the 2008 financial crisis, Scott built his agencies and a seven-figure coaching practice almost entirely through referrals and relationships.

Book: Referrals Done Right by Scott Grates
Connect with Scott: https://www.scottgrates.com/

Meet Your Host:
Jennifer Kok has been a business owner for over 25 years and is now a Small Business Consultant. She turned her first business into a franchise and successfully sold it 20 years later.  She was passionate about building a business and a family at the same time.

The Earn More Stress Less 9-Pillar System helps women entrepreneurs with families create profitable, sustainable businesses that finally pay them back — in money, time, and peace of mind.  https://nextwavebusinesscoaching.com

My name is Jennifer Kok, and I’m a profit and growth advisor for service-based women entrepreneurs. I help women business owners make smarter, more strategic decisions so they can grow profitably, pay themselves consistently, and avoid burnout.

Because the truth is, business owners make decisions all day long, but the ones that really matter are often the hardest ones. Should I hire? Raise my prices? Invest in marketing? Let go of a draining client? Expand, or simplify?

Those decisions carry weight, and they can impact your time, your profit, your energy, and your long-term growth.

That’s why I created the Focused Growth Collective, a virtual mastermind for women business owners who want support making the kinds of decisions that move a business forward. Yes, we talk strategy, but we also look at the bigger picture like mental load, health, profit, and long-term sustainability.

My goal is to help women build businesses that pay them well, support their lives, and still feel worth leading 10 years from now.

Connect with me:
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Transcript

Jennifer Kok (00:01.332)

Scott, welcome to Main Street Success Stories. I'm so happy to have you here today.

Scott Grates (00:05.166)

Thanks for having me, Jen. I'm actually really excited because my business is literally on Main Street. So I think I fit the bill well.

Jennifer Kok (00:13.192)

You fit the bill well and we were meant to be. You you are what I would call a referral expert and you're an author of a book called Referrals Done Right. And I'm a huge fan of referral marketing, especially for Main Street businesses, small businesses. You know, we don't have the budgets to get out there in the visible online world and what it takes to really be found online. We have to rely on our people and our community.

So when you said yes to being a guest today, I was so excited because I really want to dive deep on this. feel like this is an area for small business owners that can be confusing. It can also be intimidating. We do really great at joining our chamber, but then a lot of times we don't show up or we meet people and we don't do a follow-up with them. You those are the things I see a lot with small business owners and a lot of it's because, you know, they're wearing all the hats and everything.

So how did you take us back to how this became such a hot button for you? Like, where did you find that this needed to be something I could lean in and really teach about?

Scott Grates (01:16.568)

Yeah, great question. And like all, you know, great things that happen in life, it was out of necessity. When I opened my business, I had no customers. I had been out of the state for 11 years and we had just moved back, started our family. My wife and I are both from the town we're in. But we were broke. We had two babies both in diapers. When I opened the business, we were coming off the 08 financial meltdown.

I was with HSBC bank and lost my job with 6,000 other people that year. And, uh, my wife's a school teacher and we were on rice and beans for a good two, three years. So I opened the book with, you know, the story about David and Goliath, which, you know, I didn't think just fits well for the small business owner. Uh, you know, we can't compete with the corporate behemoths with their traditional marketing and advertising budgets.

And in my space, I'm an insurance, you know, I mean that industry spends billions of dollars on marketing, advertising, every everywhere you look, you know, that you're seeing insurance ads. so, you know, after trying to keep up, you know, because everyone said, well, don't reinvent the wheel, right? Just go with the old dirt method, which is an acronym for direct mail, Internet aggregators, referrals. And then the T was telemarketing back when we could do telemarketing.

you know, and then we were doing some newspaper ads and radio ads and some TV ads, and I was getting lost in the shuffle. You know, I was just, five, six grand a month budget, which was huge for me, but it was nothing to make a splash in that space and be seen consistently. And so when I started looking at my, my ROI after the first year, the outlier was referrals. I had such a huge conversion rate.

on referrals and the bulk of my good quality business was coming from that area. And then I looked at how much I was spending on those. And in many cases it was nothing. And so the ROI was huge. And even someone like me who had no business experience prior to opening my first business realized that, I got to go all in on this area.

Jennifer Kok (03:33.039)

You know, there's so many points of this that are so interesting to me. First of all, everyone says don't recreate the wheel. Just do it the way others do it. And we do. mean, like you said, most of us who started a business didn't have any business experience. We weren't opening our third, fourth, fifth business. We're opening our first business, whether it's brick and mortar service, whatever you're doing. And so yeah, we follow what other people do. And I love how you did that and

But I also love the fact that you were like, okay, wait a minute, I need to look at my numbers and I need to learn what is actually driving business. Where a lot of times we don't do that, we tend to just keep going, going, going more more and more. And I'm just, really appreciate the fact that you took a pause. I think we can learn a lot just from that. And you reflected back on this past year of beans and rice and what's happening. And I am getting clients through referrals. So that to me is a very...

poignant point and I think I don't want to over, I don't want to gloss over that because a lot of times we just keep doing more and more and more hoping something different is going to happen.

Scott Grates (04:33.666)

Yeah. And if I can, I want to double down on that because the, part that came next was actually much harder, which was having the leadership courage to do something about it. Because so many times we do pause and we realize, Ooh, we need to make this change, but it's going to be painful, at least in the short term. And we choose the comfort, you know, over the pain and the, and the now, but we neglect the future. And so what do I mean by that?

You know, I could go out and double my budget and get more internet leads and get, you know, send more direct mail and increase my revenue at the expense of my profitability right away. But what I decided to do is to cut all of that stuff and go all in on referrals, which takes much longer. This is a long game process. So my revenue actually decreased, um, you know, right out of the gate, which didn't look good on paper, but then longterm.

my profitability was able to skyrocket because of it.

Jennifer Kok (05:33.739)

And I think that's really key too, where a lot of times we can be so focused on revenue, that's the shiny number, that's the fun number, but know, profitability at the end of the day is going to pay the bills. So you went all in on referral and you have written a book called Referrals Done Right, and you're going to teach us, you're going to give us a little snippet of what this means. And you mention in the book, you've got five key referral groups. Can you kind of quickly take us through these five key groups?

Scott Grates (05:50.094)

Yeah.

Scott Grates (05:58.808)

Yeah, absolutely. they all kind of start with S, right? So these are my five S's. So it's small businesses and real quick, and we can dive deeper into this one. This is the idea of the goose and the golden egg. You know, I was chasing the golden eggs, which is the potential customers, right? The prospects that I wanted to talk to, but so was everyone else. And, you know, you're constantly on this hamster wheel of trying to find these new golden eggs. And finally it occurred to me that, I need to go after the goose or the geese. Right.

And I need to figure out who are the people that are already doing business with the people I want to do business with. And I'm to go all in on the relationship piece with them so that then when they think of my products and services, they're sending their little golden eggs my way. That trust transfer occurs and the conversion rate is much better. So small businesses, huge. The second one is schools. I know you want to dive a little bit deeper into that. So I'll go over that one quickly right now. The other one is service groups.

And a lot of times, you know, these people are super connectors. Most of the time they're super connectors, right? People who are giving back to the community through service and civic organizations. And you mentioned like, you know, the chamber and nonprofits, even if they're not your direct customers, they're going to direct you to other people who might be great customers. And they're also going to introduce you to other potential great referral sources. So I stay active there.

And then your star customers. This one's my favorite. And I think it's one that we don't spend enough time on. The idea that your best customers are your sales team. Right? So hopefully right now in the 30 minutes you and I are talking, one of my 12,000 insurance customers is out there saying something nice to someone they know about me. And they become a salesperson for me. Right? And one of our best referral sources. So

We focus on creating a wow experience. We ask our customers to complete satisfaction surveys annually to rate us on a scale of one to wow. And it's our mission to make sure that everyone that we interact with goes wow. I either want to do business with them or I'm glad I do and I can't wait to tell my friends and family about them. And you know, and that all goes along with creating this unique and memorable customer experience. And then the last piece is social media.

Scott Grates (08:20.05)

And you know, this one is kind of a catch all you can, can, know, take the first four and make sure that everything you're doing, you're active on social, but you know, people are the new brands. It used to be back in the day that, you know, people just trusted the name brand, traditional logos that, that we know. And now there's less and less with the next generation trust around that. But, people want that human relationship, especially

in this digitally dominated world and as AI takes over, I think it's the human relationship that's gonna be the great separator, the differentiating factor in our businesses because yeah, AI can do a lot of things, but it's gonna do a lot of things the same way for everyone. So what's gonna make you different and it's that eyeball to eyeball relationship piece. And what an amazing time to be in business. And I tell my kids this all the time, I three teenagers. I would have to go to Harvard.

and learn from the very best business minds in the world to have access to the information that they do with the phone in their pocket right now. You know, and, to be able to, to, create content, to be on podcasts like this, to cross pollinate with people's markets, you know, via social is such an opportunity. So, so those are the five S's and we can dive into whatever you want to.

Jennifer Kok (09:38.111)

You you brought up the same word a few times as you were talking about your five S's, and that's trust. And I think you're right in the fact that we have to do actions now as small business owners to earn trust, because we are in a trust deficit. And especially the next generation, they don't trust the big brands and the logos and all those things that you're seeing. And that's why one of the reasons I'm very passionate about talking about referrals and helping my customers see the value and, you know,

Scott Grates (09:41.423)

But yeah.

Jennifer Kok (10:07.902)

jumping into referral marketing. So we've got these five buckets, and most of them, I could say we've we've heard, small business, service groups, star customers, social media. The one that throws me for a loop is schools. Where does that fit in for a small business owner?

Scott Grates (10:21.55)

Yeah.

Scott Grates (10:26.35)

Yeah, I think this is the secret sauce. Honestly, I'm a contrarian by nature. I look at everything from 10,000 feet up and I'm like, hey, where is everyone going on this left or right? And wherever they're going, I'm going to look the other way. Because if you do what the masses do, you get what the masses get. And so how do you become unique? How do you stand out? How do I get strategic and intentional with my branding? How do I future proof my business? And

You know, when I look at the schools, especially the, you know, I mean, as little as middle school, and I will work with elementary schools, but really my sweet spot is I want to be in front of juniors and seniors in high school because those are going to be my next generation of customers. They're going to be my next team members, my employees. They're going to be my next referral partners. And when it comes to time to make a buying decision, right, if,

you know, again, whatever your space is, it doesn't matter. I'm an insurance, but when it's time to make a buying insurance decision with insurance, who are they going to think of when they're 20, 21, 22 years old? You know, is it going to be something they find online or is it going to be that guy or lady that came into their school with consistency, adding value to them, helping them? And I'll show up in any capacity. do career days, financial literacy workshops.

driver safety events, or even just piggyback on events that they're doing and just show up so that they know me, not as the insurance agent, but as Scott, the husband, the father, the community leader, the thought leader, the friend, someone that they can bounce ideas off of. so, again, just top of mind awareness to truly future proof your business because whatever your products and services are.

Those are your next generation of customers and all of that stuff, you know, selfishly plays really well on social. So when you do show up at these events and you're taking pictures or doing videos and creating content and sharing with people that, hey, I live here, I work here, I care about this community. I'm willing to, you know, invest in the future of this community. I want to keep top talent here. I don't want these kids to leave, you know, and that plays well on social as well.

Scott Grates (12:48.14)

So yeah, I'm very active with the schools.

Jennifer Kok (12:50.686)

Well, I am so intrigued with your secret sauce. And it's interesting because you see those career days on other people's socials. And I think that's really something a key takeaway is. How can you as a business owner or listeners think about plugging into their schools? And one thing too that's very apparent with you, Scott, is all these groups, you are giving more than you're taking. You are going in with a mindset of how can I pour into these folks? How can I help?

How can I super connect? How do we mentally get there when we are worried about our businesses? Like you had said, I was out of necessity, went here because I was living on beans and rice, you know. We're awake at night thinking about, okay, I haven't had a customer in a while, revenue's down. How do we consistently show up in that type of a mindset when the truth is we are battling some really tough stuff. We're trying to keep a business afloat.

Scott Grates (13:47.8)

Yeah. Such a great question. And I'm so glad you brought this up because there's an order to this stuff. Right. And so I want to be clear and back up my first year in business, second year, even like probably my first three or four years in business. I wasn't as involved with the schools as I am now because that is a long play. Right. You're not going to go show up to a career day and all of a sudden

seven new customers are going to show up, you know, the next day, it's just not going to work. So this is a four or five, six year down the road play. But the beauty of schools is every year you get a new crop, right? So every year there's a new crop of juniors and seniors, you know, and so I get to be in front of new people all the time and doing this now for probably close to 12 years. You know, I've been in front of probably 15, 20,000 students and I'm sure, you know, a solid percentage of those are now in my book of business.

Jennifer Kok (14:15.42)

I'm

Jennifer Kok (14:24.083)

Yeah.

Scott Grates (14:42.286)

What you hit on is so important first. It's that servant heart. And I want to make this very clear when it comes. This is why the name of the book is Referrals Done Right. And honestly, the name of the book should have been Relationships Done Right, but that would have put it in a different section of the bookstore. But it's really all about relationships. But the done right part is the old school referral and why referral has kind of a stigma.

Jennifer Kok (15:01.14)

Right. True.

Scott Grates (15:09.162)

about it is because it's, you know, I'll scratch your back, but you got to scratch mine. If you do this for me, I'll do that for you. What referrals done right is all about is leading with a servant's heart and me just figuring out what matters to Jen, what matters to Jen's business? How can I help you? What do you have coming up that I can promote? How can we connect and collaborate? Who do I possibly know that I can send your way that would help your business?

Right. And then it's consistency. So if there was one word problem that I can sell for the people I work with, it's inconsistency because none of this stuff is rocket science. Like you said, you're all shaking your head going, yeah, we know, we know, we know, or I've tried it. And my answer to I've tried it is right. How often and for how long? Because you can try anything once, twice, three times and not see results when it's a longterm play.

You know, so what we do is we teach people how to be strategic and intentional and show up with consistency month after month after month. And it doesn't need to be physically showing up. It can be, you know, and we teach all this in the book, but connecting on social, handwritten cards, you know, collaboration for different events that they have going on, leave them a review, give them a referral, send them an email with a related article that might help them in their business. So we just want our name.

and or face or presence to show up consistently month after month after month. So when they think of our products and services, they think of you. And a wild thing happens when you do this with consistency. The law of reciprocity kicks in and by not asking you for anything, suddenly you want to give me everything.

because for months and sometimes years, all I've done is help you and support you and show up for you in certain capacity. And then when you finally have someone that can help me, I'm the first person you think of. So again, long-term play, but when you build this the right way and do it over time, you know, what we've created now is truly thousands of referrals come into our agency. I do no other marketing. I do some SEO.

Scott Grates (17:20.462)

But I don't do direct mail. don't buy internet leads. I don't do billboards. I don't do TV or radio ads It is strictly a referral business now But it couldn't be there if we didn't start with the groundwork of this long

Jennifer Kok (17:37.085)

And I think that's important is to remember that it's a long-term play. And I think sometimes we live in a world of unrealistic expectations because we go on social and we see this person hit a million dollars in their business and they're in the same industry we are. And we think, what am I doing wrong? And we put this pressure on ourselves and a lot of start and they think within three years they're going to be profitable and business is just going to be booming. And so from day one,

You you have to play this long game of brand awareness. And I love how you've used referrals as your strategy. How do you keep up? You must teach a system. Like, let's talk about the strategy of this a little bit and the implementation of this. Because, I mean, I have a database of thousands of people. I can go on LinkedIn and I don't know, I have 1,400 people. How do I keep up with it all on top of, you know, my accounting and customer service and selling and everything else that I have to do as a business owner?

Scott Grates (18:27.406)

Thank

Jennifer Kok (18:32.892)

How do you make it easy to be consistent?

Scott Grates (18:36.972)

Great question. And the simple answer is start small. I think that the biggest mistake we make in so many areas is we take on too much all at once. We get overwhelmed and then we quit on it. So what I suggest with people is start with your top 20 list. All right. And just figure out who are those 20. I call them key relationships. Again, think of people who are already doing business with people.

that you want to do business with. So in my business as an insurance agent, I want to talk to realtors, car dealers, apartment leasing managers, managers, mortgage brokers, people like that. cause they're already working with people who are going to need my products and services. So find your top 20 that align with your business and just map it out one per day, five days a week for four weeks. And every day, I just want you to make one contact with that one person.

And then once you do create a follow up four weeks later, or I guess it would be the fifth week, right? If we're going to rotate. So for Mondays from today and then do it again in four weeks in some capacity and just take notes and maybe you're just using outlook. Maybe you're using a ledger, old school pen and paper. don't know. Obviously this will evolve to you using a CRM system, which is what we do now to keep track of it for us. to start, start small.

It's literally five minutes a day, sometimes less, where you are just making one meaningful contact with one person. And if you do that every day, that's 20 a month, and then just repeat the cycle so you keep showing up. And then it might be two a day, and then it might be three a day. And then you might have someone on your team doing that with you as well. So now you're multiplying your efforts, and then you might get to a point where someone just does this for your business.

And that's where we got, we call it the Rainmaker. So our Rainmaker is constantly out doing all of the community events and making the connections and staying consistent with this. So the simple answer is start small.

Jennifer Kok (20:40.168)

And then the idea here from what I'm hearing is you're talking, you're reaching out to the same person about once a month with this formula, okay. And you said it earlier, I think what I hear a lot of times from my clients is I don't want to bother people. I don't know what to say. And like you said, just don't even talk about yourself, talk about them. And we are not lacking information. You can go and chat GBT and say, hey, give me a statistic about car dealers.

Scott Grates (20:46.988)

Yes, yeah, every four weeks. Yep.

Jennifer Kok (21:06.714)

And you could just write an email to a car dealer and just say, hey, this is what I heard is going on. How are things for you? Is that kind of the approach, just offering something of value?

Scott Grates (21:15.118)

Spot on. Spot on. And I'm going give you the golden nugget here because this is the number one question we get. You're really good at this. You're putting things right on into you for me. Where do I start? I get it, but what do I start? It'd be weird. It's icky to just walk in and be like, hey, you don't know me, but I want to pour value into you. It's weird. So what we did is we started a weekly blog.

And we would go to, we would basically ask, cause let me take you back here, right? So what's the easiest way for you to get to know me? You're doing it right now. It's for you to interview me, ask me questions, right? And so how do we, so I was like, how do we start interviewing people? I'm like, well, let's start a weekly blog where we shine a spotlight on amazing other business owners and school leaders and service organization, all the people we want to pour into, right? In the system. And we say, you know, Hey Jenna, would love to, you know, take 15 minutes of your time.

We have this Wednesday blog, call it something unique. where's Jake Wednesday? We have this, this Jake from, can't say the name of the company, but you can connect it. Right. And so we bring this cardboard cutout out and, and we do a picture, we do pictures at the business and we interview the business owner or one of the business leaders. And then to your point too, with, chat, even if you're not a writer, just take all of your notes, throw it in a chat. It'll write the blog for you. put the pictures in, tag them, right? Now you're cross pollinating. They're sharing.

And everyone's seeing that your business, you are pouring into this other business, adding value to them. Again, we didn't ask them for anything, but now they're in our system. And then we're going to, you know, four weeks, send a little handwritten card. was so great to connect with you, Jen, blah, blah, blah. Four weeks, we're going to do something else, maybe a thoughtful gift or, you know, what have you. And now, boom, they're in your network.

Jennifer Kok (23:02.046)

You know, this is just a refreshing conversation because marketing is so overwhelming right now for business owners. And in fact, I just did a podcast on it talking about passive actions, active actions, the cost of it, how to get in front of the ideal client, you know, the trust that has to be built. And I'm getting this like, I almost just want to go, I just want to go make a cup of tea and say, okay, let's just take 10 steps back and just get back to humanizing business.

Scott Grates (23:30.766)

Amen. Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (23:31.347)

And that's what you've done. It's so simple. You're sitting here going, 20 people? I can do that. I can do that. And a handwritten note, how fun is that to send a handwritten note, but even more fun to receive it? So it's like just getting back to the basics. I think we get overwhelmed with the shiny object. We get intimidated that we're not doing enough. And I love this approach. And obviously, the results have worked.

Because like you said, you built a whole entire business, a very successful business, and referrals.

Scott Grates (24:02.626)

multiple businesses. Honestly, you know, we've taken this now into the coaching consulting sales training world where I did no marketing advertising there and built up a seven figure coaching business just around relationships, right? And people that I was able to meet through this. We've got multiple insurance agencies. We've got a seven figure real estate business that we run now and it is all built on relationships. And I want to, I want to go back to the handwritten card that, I say all the time that

What was once old is new again. And we overthink what's a pretty simple business, right? Just see people on a human level, because more and more and more as we go into this AI world, I'm not anti AI use it every day, but we have to understand that, you know, people have not changed since the beginning of time, how we're wired. want to be seen. We want to be heard. want to be.

made to be feel special and loved. And so when you can show someone that, I see you, I hear you, I care about you, and prove it with consistency, they want to be a part of whatever you're doing and whatever capacity. And again, it takes time. The handwritten card. Every morning I sit down and I write out three handwritten cards. It takes me 10 minutes. It's my Scott Greats stationery, nothing on the inside, just my name on the front, nothing fancy, nothing branded, no QR codes, no websites.

And I have this little system called salute and support and so again very active on social media And so what do people put on social media? They put on things that they're happy about that they're excited about that they're proud of and they put on things that make them sad Right that you know, hey, I'm so sorry to hear about this or you know, whatever And then we stay away from the political stuff, but you know salute and support I'm looking for three every single day on social where I can send a handwritten card congratulating them

or supporting them, you know, in some way. And another home run, going back to the kids in the schools, and again, I've got three teenagers, you want to get the attention of parents, recognize their kids. So parents are always putting amazing stuff about their kids online. So I don't send the parents a card, I send the kid a card. And I'll put in like a gift certificate for an ice cream or a pizza or you know, something and saying, you know, great job getting the lead in the school play, you know, great job.

Scott Grates (26:23.404)

with winning whatever championship or being all league in soccer, whatever it might be, handwritten card, sometimes a little thoughtful gift, 80 cents to mail it. And then what happens? Well, then the parents get ahold of it and they put it on social, right? my God, look at what Scott sent so-and-so or did for whatever. And then those kids will one day become your customers potentially or potentially your employees. So.

But at the end of the day, even if none of that happens, who cares? Because to your point, it feels good for me to do it. I don't expect anything in return. And I know that it feels good for them to receive it because they want to be seen and heard. And so again, everything we do isn't for the business purpose. It's to humanize what we're doing. And then the law of reciprocity just takes over.

Jennifer Kok (27:16.71)

And, know, I thought I knew a lot about referral marketing. You know, I teach my clients what I call the strategic referral partner, which is similar to what you, you know, just a different title, but I have learned so much just in these 30 minutes we've spent together. And I can't wait to buy your book and dive into this deeper because not only is it so human centered, but it's also practical. It's very doable. And it just takes away the, the ick of networking, I guess, you know, you know, we.

Scott Grates (27:43.586)

Yeah.

Jennifer Kok (27:46.259)

A lot of people fear it. There's a lot of intimidation and I think it's because they go in thinking they have to have a sales pitch, have an elevator speech and have all these things ready and collect business cards. And your approach is not that it's like just be a human. And most of us who started businesses usually have a huge heart, have a passion for other people, have a passion for a problem and a passion for our community. And you're just helping us package that to not only market ourselves, but just to pour into others. So.

Thank you for this refreshing insight on referral marketing. Yes, please. No, please do.

Scott Grates (28:16.876)

Yeah, I'll give you one more thing. know you're trying to wrap up. I know some people are thinking it, right? They're like, well, what if I'm a social introvert, right? Or what if I'm not a good networker? I want to let everyone know that this whole thing is designed for the social introvert, for someone who hates networking. And no one believes me when I tell them this, but I'm a social introvert. Like I'm comfortable with you. I'm comfortable in a group that I know, but you put me at a chamber mixer.

I'm the guy in the corner like pounding drinks sweating because I hate that forced awkward interaction where everyone's there because they want something. And I don't, I don't own business cards. I don't collect business cards because again, that's where everyone's going. So I want to go the other way. So what this allows us to do is show up one-on-one in unique ways on your terms. And a lot of it's done virtually, right? Handwritten email, social media.

So all of this you can 100 % do even if you're a social introvert and you hate traditional networking because I'm both.

Jennifer Kok (29:13.598)

love that and same with me. Like I love working for my jammies in my home office, but I love connecting with people. So what a great approach. know, Scott, you really walk the talk. Tell me about your fun project that you and your wife are doing. You have a podcast that highlights local.

Scott Grates (29:27.446)

Yeah, real quick. mean, you know, so this is, it's funny how everything evolves. I'm always a just jump and figure it out on the way down kind of guy. So we started our blog, which was really successful. But then I'm like, well, how do we take this to the next level? And podcasting became the answer to that. And so we started a podcast called Love Living Local 315. 315 is our area code in central New York where we live.

And we said, Hey, we're here to shine a spotlight and all the amazing people in our community doing amazing things. People who normally don't get the spotlight. And so once a week, we, we have a guest on and we do a 30 minute interview like you and I just did, and we let them share their story and we blasted all over and the audience has grown insanely. We've got almost 30,000 people that follow us here locally. but selfishly.

What has it done is help me meet people I never would have met before, right? Because now the cool thing about this after years of doing it, now creating the platform is people are now coming to us because they want to be on the show and they want to meet. and so it becomes really easy to network and meet people when they're trying to get ahold of you. and so that's kind of the really long game, you know, here is, we've kind of become, I don't like the word celebrity, but in our local little community, you know, we are

very well known because we put a lot of content out there. But it all started with the blog approach, which evolved to the podcast.

Jennifer Kok (30:56.81)

That's so fun. Well, Scott, thank you once again. Obviously, you have cracked referrals done right. I'm going to put the link to your book in the show notes. I'm going to buy myself a copy. And I really encourage listeners to do that because I love this approach. you brought up the term long game a few times, but I'm a big believer that when you do things right, you're going to accelerate faster in the long run. And that if you're just chasing what's in front of you this week,

You're going to exhaust yourself. And that's why a lot of businesses don't make it to year five is they get overwhelmed. They get exhausted. They burn through cash. But if you do it right, have a strategy, have a plan, five minutes a day, write a few handwritten notes. We can be where you are someday, very successful business owner. So thanks, Scott, for sharing your tips, your story. really was honored to have you on today.

Scott Grates (31:40.534)

and

Scott Grates (31:45.346)

Yeah, thank you for what you're doing as well. I think it's awesome how you serve small business owners. It's not easy, you know that and you being there to help them is amazing. So good job.

Jennifer Kok (31:55.115)

Well, thank you. I appreciate it.