A Healthusiasm Culture: Why Healthcare’s Next Shift Is Cultural, Not Technological (#61)

What if healthcare is missing the very thing people now crave most?

Recorded live at the Radical Health Festival in Helsinki, this panel argues that healthcare needs a Healthusiasm Culture — and that the next transformation won’t be technological.

In this episode:

• Why people now want energy, meaning, belonging and longevity — not just treatment
• Why institutions still organise around disease, process and silos
• From fixing problems to unlocking potential; from prescribing to intrinsic motivation
• From vertical structures to transversal thinking; less burnout, more belonging
• Why the next transformation in healthcare is cultural, not technological

With a live panel of doctors, psychologists, and policy and innovation leaders, hosted by Christophe Jauquet.

People are more conscious, proactive and aspirational about health than ever — a Life Aspirations Model, not a disease model. A Healthusiasm Culture is how organisations meet them there.

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Transcript

Christophe Jauquet: 0:01

Welcome to the Healthusiasm Podcast, a panel discussion on innovations in health and self-care. My name is Christophe Jauquet. I am a health business expert, author, and professional keynote speaker. And every month or so I discuss with a panel of experts the positive changes that are shaping our health and happiness. Now for this discussion, well, I have only one of your beloved experts in the panel, which is from France but enjoy work life in Barcelona, Aline Noise.

Aline Noizet: 0:31

Bonjour.

Christophe Jauquet: 0:33

That means that we are missing our digital health expert for startups, Estefanía 'Nia' Escobar-Kölle, medical expert in digital innovation, Dr. Keith Grimes, and human experience expert Mo Zouina. In that case, we always invite special guests to our panel, some new blots, some other expertise. And this time we have from the Netherlands, GP, author, and expert in positive health. Karolien van de Breco Dijkstra.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 1:00

Hello.

Christophe Jauquet: 1:02

From Spain but living in Austria. Also already been on the show, actually. Begoña San José, she's a psychologist and happiness expert.

Begoña San José: 1:12

Buenas.

Christophe Jauquet: 1:14

And last but not least, from Ukraine, medical doctor trained, also in Foresight, we have health policy and systems expert Katarina Ostrovka. Did I do any rights with these introductions because we quickly did it? Anything that I missed that you want to share? Oh, good. Very good then. So, on top of that, next to our three new guests, we also have somebody else with us. It's called the Sixth Man in Basketball, and it's the 12th man in football. And the reason for that is that because we are live in Helsinki at the Radical Health Festival, another live episode. Can I hear yourself, please? No, that's what I'm talking about. So today we have this nice panel here, different experiences, different expertise. And we will be talking about Healthusiasm, of course, but something very specific. Let me first introduce Healthusiasm for everyone again. And it's always difficult for me because I've done it already like for eight years long, almost every week, multiple times, and I think I change it every time again. So I hope I do it rightfully so again here in the best possible way. But Healthusiasm, if you will, is the combination of the words health and enthusiasm. And what I truly believe is that people are more than ever occupied with their health, they're more than ever enthusiastic to do something about their health because they have more technologies, because they have different aspirations in life, because our basic and social needs are largely fulfilled, so people become more aspirational, but also because there's more and more support in the world to help you yourself with your health. I mean, there's you know non-healthcare companies that move into the space as well. So, because of all of that, what we see is that people take more and more actions to impact in their health, they are more conscious about it, they are more demanding, maybe even. And what I sometimes believe, if I look at the healthcare industry, and we are here at radical health, which is primarily focused at the healthcare industry, but I sometimes believe, and I also said this morning during the opening keynote, is that within the healthcare system, we don't always have what I call Healthusiasm culture, meaning we don't have a culture in our healthcare ecosystem that thinks about this Healthusiasm that people have, what is important for them, what are their expectations, what are their aspirations, and by basically not paying attention to it or even ignoring it, we don't provide always the best solutions for our patients. That is first of all, the statement that I want to make here before we go deeper into that. And Aline, I know what you think about, but you want to jump in and complete what you think about healthism and how it is important, just in general. Do you also feel that in healthcare maybe we lack a little bit of Healthusiasm?

Aline Noizet: 4:10

Sure. No, you did a great introduction, as usual. But healthism is more and more important. I think that's what people want, people need, that aspiration, inspiration that will get you going. And people's expectations are also changing, and they go back to their roots. I mean, we're good at that in Europe, but we work to live, like to really be happy. And that's what's happening, those Healthusiasm, not going back to that, going back to the roots, yeah, and those small things that can make a difference, and also link to longevity, what we're discussing in a session before. I think those small elements in our day, day-to-day life.

Christophe Jauquet: 4:57

Yeah, Begoña I know you're a big fan of the podcast. I know every time I see you, you ask me, Can I be on the podcast? No, I'm just joking. But you should clearly show that you like to be on a podcast because you actually live and breed healthism as well. Do you think that the healthcare system needs a little bit more of healthsiasm?

Begoña San José: 5:15

I think it needs a lot more enthusiasm in general, because without enthusiasm, it's like keep going like robots, if I may. In the times of AI, I think it's one of the autopilot, you just go, go, go. And enthusiasm is what makes a difference between just going to whoo, let's rock it. Yeah. I do follow Earthm podcast regularly because of the inspiration and aspiration and the hope that it brings together. So it's not we're saying about these innovations are taking place, it's like where, how, and how can we transform from that into the reality, wherever you are, and whatever your position may be.

Christophe Jauquet: 5:55

Yeah, and it's not just about the innovation and the technology, it's really about the human, and we come to that as well. But I want to, you know, go to our new newest member of the Healthism family, if I may say. Karolien, after having heard now live here, what healthism is all about, how do you look at it? And what's your thought on the healthcare system, whether or not it's it has enough health asm?

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 6:20

I think we need a lot of health enthusiasm because we talk about disease. I'm a general practitioner and we learn about diseases, and the whole system is about diseases. And I think if we start talking from out of health, we get a totally different world. we get a different world because everybody says what is important to you, my health. But we don't act upon that. The whole medical system is about complaints about diseases and positive health, the concept where we look broad towards health, because health is much more than the absence of disease. That is exactly what health enthusiasm is. So I guess we hope to speak each other more frequently because I think we're on the same ambition.

Christophe Jauquet: 7:00

Yeah, I think so too. And that's exactly why we wanted you to have Aline and I we were looking at the whole list of people that were on at Radical Health, and we looked at your profile. I was like, this is health asm, you know, in this purest form always. So I'm happy to continue the discussion on this health positivity you're talking about. Let me first go to Katarina. What's your thought on Healthusiasm from your expertise and your point of view looking at the healthcare system again? Is it lacking? Do we need more Healthusiasm or not?

Kateryna Ostrovska: 7:33

Well, I consider that we still have this path dependence in the sense we're living the used futures, we're living that way how our predecessors constructed the service systems. And we sometimes lack imagination, although we're kind of enthusiastic and anticipating there are new technologies coming, but they are coming to accelerate the decision-making process, just kind of to speed up, but not kind of transform it systemically. And quite often we also overlook the way how there's enthusiasm being placed, what it just commits to, in the sense there is a huge disbalance to my to my in my understanding between supply and demand side in services. Sometimes the farmer, the other kind of industry, which are really necessary to us, but they also act as very contributing actors, the way how they displace the initiative within the system. And sometimes we might be doing different things if we're asking different types of questions. So my sense is of that kind.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 8:45

If I may say it's exactly what we need, we need new narratives in health. You know, we think that if we have more money or more people, we can there's a lot of people are talking about health crisis to come, but I don't think those are the solutions. I think the solutions are really to look different, to have a mindset shift. And actually, it was interesting to hear that from our Finnish minister yesterday. She said we need a mindset shift. And I think the solution is in us, in the professionals, in ourselves, in everybody. Because if you think if you have something in your body, your doctor's going to tell you what you should do. I mean, how who am I to decide for someone to fix a problem? So, what we do with positive health is we have people get insight in their own health, and then we start talking about what is important to you. Not where what do you want to get rid of, but where do you want to go? And that's really the place to go. Then you get to the intrinsic motivation of people, and that's interesting. I'm curious what you think about it, how that will work if we do this more.

Christophe Jauquet: 9:48

So you we mentioned positive health twice or three times already. Maybe it's good to is it an organization? Is it a training? Is it what do we understand about what for the people that don't know it? What is positive health exactly?

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 10:04

It has been founded by Machteld Huber. She is a GP herself and she got sick herself. And when she was a patient, she realized that everybody was talking about disease and not about what she could do to promote her diseases. She went into research about what is health, and then there was an international meeting where they said we should change the definition of health. Maybe we should change it to health is the ability to adapt and self-manage to the to the challenges we face into life. These challenges can be physical.

Christophe Jauquet: 10:35

Say that again slower.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 10:36

So I think the ability to adapt to the challenges of life. Okay. And we can have physical challenges, we can have social challenges, we can have mental challenges. Okay. And then also to self-manage too. So to take also to take care of the challenges you deal with. And that's actually it's dynamic, it's not static. And if you have, if you create like the resilience to deal with the challenges of life, that's where health starts. And then me, and that's how she did the research. Then from out of her research team, she asked, like, do we agree upon that this is what we what we talk about when we talk about health? They asked, if I would ask you all, what is health? What does health mean to you? Then what would be your answer?

Aline Noizet: 11:24

What health means to me. For me, it would be being in good health, like being able to live life normally, enjoying life, having good energy, a good energy.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 11:33

And Christophe, what we what would be it for you?

Christophe Jauquet: 11:36

Well, if I if I would answer from a personal point of view, I'd say I would say it's the basis of living a good life. So without it becomes a bit more difficult, or even way more difficult in some cases. If I would look at the word health care, I think I then think about it as science. So it's if the words healthcare has care and health in there, yeah. And I think health to me then becomes certainly science, which is something very strict and procedural and system-driven, and so forth. so I have these two words.

Begoña San José: 12:08

Yeah. What does health mean to you? Yeah, I will come back with Christophe. So if I look at healthcare, I will put care before health. Yeah, I would love to for sure. Yeah, we are in the care health field, and if we look at it that way, then caring is what allows health to happen in a way. So caring is what allows that to happen, but it's certainly far from absence of disease. I think a lot of people with disease are healthy, yeah. That's true, yeah, yeah. So that's it's just a label. I mean, if you don't have a diagnosis, you're not healthy, huh? Excuse me. I mean, who doesn't have a diagnosis anyway, even if that is, I don't know, attention deficit, you know, or hypertension, or yeah, it doesn't matter. Does that make the difference between being healthy and not being healthy? So I think it's quite arbitrary definition. So for me, health is just maybe it's closer to happiness. Maybe that's that gives me the title.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 13:06

And belonging, because I know that's an important word for you. So maybe just to finish up, what is positive health? Like, yeah, what is health for you?

Kateryna Ostrovska: 13:13

Well, I consider this a possibility to unlock many, many domains in my life to the fullest somehow. So, and I probably also add that it's really important to recognize that it's a trade-off that politicians very often play with, to kind of decide what is the right determination of the health, if we qualify this person healthy or unhealthy, should we invest money there and there? And you're actually bringing a very important question to the table because it's at the core how the money would be redistributed in the system afterwards, right? So it's just not only our personal decision, but just it goes up upstream. And how it would be decided, nobody really knows. Should we cover these rare diseases? Should we should we invest into the chronic diseases? Should we treat adults or still care more about vaccination of newborn babies? So, in this sense, it's just something that kind of very rarely crossed our mind very often, but it's on the agenda of everyone.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 14:14

It is, it is, yeah. So just to wrap up, like what is positive health? This question, what does health mean to you have been asked to a lot of people, and we came up with 500 indicators of different what people answered of what was being healthy. And then they grouped this to six categories, and these are the six categories used in the reflection tool of positive health, six dimensions. It's the it's the bodily functions.

Christophe Jauquet: 14:37

Bring them on, bring them on.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 14:38

of course, like are you physically healthy? the mental functions, how do you how do you feel mentally? It's about meaningfulness. that's the third dimension, quality of life, and it has to do with safety and housing, but also about balance, participation, so belonging, and how do you how do you participate, how do you connect to people and daily functioning. And these six categories are plotted in a diagram, and this is a very easy reflection tool to use in daily conversations. And that is what we use, the reflection tool of positive health, which helps professionals to have conversations with their patients. So it's more, it's a broad vision and it's a tool, and this seems to be a driver for change.

Begoña San José: 15:24

And actually, we're very happy to have Karolien tomorrow with us at the Happiness Workshop here in Radical Health Festival, where we will be encouraging human connection with the participants by bringing the topics that go beyond their titles for their industry, the positive health questions.

Christophe Jauquet: 15:41

So you do that with the people on stage or with the people in the audience?

Begoña San José: 15:45

The people in the audience.

Christophe Jauquet: 15:46

Wow.

Begoña San José: 15:46

So they instead of well, a happiness workshop is interactive. So it's never a lecture, it's very far away from a lecture. So we facilitate people living through some of the elements of happiness. This year is belonging because as part of the healthcare ecosystem, we may know we are there, but we forget the human side of things, we forget to connect and to find the reality on the connections. And Karolien will be facilitating the human connection through positive health conversations.

Christophe Jauquet: 16:17

So you train physicians, if I understand correctly, to use these six pillars and talk about with their patients to make sure that they have a better understanding of in what state they are, let's say health, happiness, healthism, whatever, it kind of kind of come close, actually. So this is how it is, right?

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 16:36

Yeah, so and it's important to have no norm. So it's like not good or bad. So it's not are you healthy or unhealthy? It's just how is it at this moment? Like a thermometer, how do you feel today? There's people who use this every week, you don't have to be sick to use it. So, so even citizens use it, we use it in schools, we use it at work, like how can you work in a healthy way? It's just to check in how satisfied am I on the six different dimensions?

And then the question is: 17:01

is there something small you want to do? And what do you need to actually go do it? So it's also to get into action, and we see surprisingly interesting, more deepening conversation in a very short time. It's really interesting.

Aline Noizet: 17:17

I really love that topic, and for me, it really goes to holistic and functional medicine. I think that's where there's still a gap today in healthcare because you go and see your doctor and it's all silos, no? So he will look at if you have some like stomach issue, he'll look at the stomach, and you have some like head issue, you go to the dermatologist, but nothing is linked, right? But at the end, looking at the different dimensions that you're mentioning, today we're treating symptoms, but not the causes, and maybe the causes are coming from one of the points that you are mentioning, but the stomach doctor is not looking at that other point, so the problem keeps going, it's not actually being fixed. So I think that's a great evolution, and that's where medicine should be moving to. And Mo would have a lot to say about that if he was here.

Christophe Jauquet: 18:05

Yeah, I think Mo would definitely have said that.

Kateryna Ostrovska: 18:08

I can say that earlier this day, Karolien so wonderfully complemented our session on women's health. And at some point, we ended up thinking that we need to redesign the systems with many, many kinds of elements in mind. And I think that we would end up incorporating this idea in many services, right? So, in the sense it would be a designing of the life somehow. And also, like a person who contributed to health policies, I'm still thinking that there is a certain missing metrics for analyzing the policies. So the concept health in all policies, it should be really the everyday life exercise. And there needs to be a basis. So, why not to kind of ground this in this particular plot, in this particular diagram to see how it shifts the well-being in a wide sense, right? So it needs to be started somewhere in a composition that has been acknowledged. So why not to use this one?

Christophe Jauquet: 19:13

The only thing I think is you talk about a basis, so you mean a benchmark then?

Kateryna Ostrovska: 19:19

I think rather we need to have a certain man mental map, mind map somehow. So kind of we look at what kind of domains it fits into, because sometimes we see it in silos. So let's say there is a ministry of health and social or affairs, so they look on only into their policies tend to look, or we have different other ministers, and everybody kind of try to help the citizens to be promoted through the constituency, but in the sense we don't have something that would be assembled in a one kind of place. We would see through a one paradigm, let's say, kind of through one lens. And at the end of the day, we want people to live the their life a full one, which has different parts to this.

Christophe Jauquet: 20:11

Yeah, I think to piggyback on that, I think what I've been saying for I think since 2020-2018 is that basically, in my opinion, health is not a vertical, it's a transversal. It touches upon everything. And so the example that you gave with, you know, there's a department of healthcare, but it should also be in social and should also be, and I think that exactly that idea of having maybe these exact tools going transversally over different businesses, but also different departments, different ministries, and so forth. So I think I really like that idea.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 20:41

That's what we already see now with 10 years' experience in the Netherlands. It's not only on a one-on-one level we have conversations, we use it in an organizational level so in teams to make sure that you know what is good to be good to be vital at work and know what your colleagues want, but specifically in communities. So we create resilient communities because this is a very shared language. And interesting, where I live in Utrecht, we have schools working with positive health, our community houses. We have citizens having positive health conversations with other citizens, so the social work, but also the medical work, and it's really a bridge like social prescribing. It's like the doctor, sometimes they come in with the doctor and they have all kinds of complaints, and it turn out they want to do something on a participation or a meaningfulness, and then they say, Well, you better go to either the lifestyle coach or the people, the center where they have all those great activities, and then I don't see them back into my GB practice. And the interesting part is the results are one of my colleagues did a lot of research. The patients feel more hurt and see me because they think, Hey, this doctor is really listening, and the doctors they think, Wow, this is something this is why I became a doctor. This works. This works, you know, and you don't have to work so hard, it's lighter. And then it seems that we have 25% less. Costs, referrals to the more expensive medical doctors. Because you said, I mean, I don't have to refer to with stomach pain again if they've been there two times and I know they're in a divorce and there's a lot of old problems, and then we'll talk about their all their other things which are which give them what the cause is for all their medical complaints. And people start to see themselves like, oh yeah, I understand why I'm so tired now because so many things are going on. So they start even saying, I don't need a medical solution, and that's really interesting.

Christophe Jauquet: 22:32

And you know what I like about so my first book, the first Healthusiasm book, set I kind of explained what healthism is, and it had the subtitle, subtitle Making Customers Healthy and Happy. That was the subtitle. Why did I use customers? It's because the patient is a customer, you have consumers, you have employees, they're all kind of in a way customers, visitors, drivers, whatever, users of technology and so forth. So I wanted to make sure that it touches upon everything. But so many companies came to me saying, like, you're right. I mean, this is exactly what is important. But what is healthy and happy? We struggle to really understand what it means. And for the second book, I was challenged with that question. And funnily enough, I did four years of research and I came up with 24 different what I call live aspirations, and they're categories categorized in four buckets, which is prevention, acceptance, which is a very important one, enjoyment, and then improvement. So, and then you have underneath E6, but the interesting enough, meaningful is one of the aspirations. Belonging is one of the aspirations, and there's 22 two more, of course. But it's interesting to see, and I'm happy to see that it kind of correlates, and you see it pretty much everywhere. So that's interesting. I think it's very good that Positive Health is focusing on these providers, healthcare providers, that it actually works, that it helps to have these conversations with you know your patients and the people that are in front of you. Now, that's one part of the angle. If we think about healthism culture and we look at startups, for example, do you see that startups have enough of this you know healthsiasm lens and in their everyday work? Do they do they incorporate it in the way that they approach their business? Or are they already in the typical healthcare sphere that kind of is focused on technology processes, move forwards? what do you see?

Aline Noizet: 24:29

So I would look at startups from two different angles. Okay. So first, like the creation of the startups, and for me, that's like the biodesign concept. So that's coming from Stanford University, and it's really unmet needs solution. So you identify a need, a problem, and you build a solution for that need. And what I've seen though those years working in the ecosystem, there's a difference between biodesign startups, like startups really create it to answer a need, or startups that come with a technology and say, Oh, I have that cool technology, let's push it to a healthcare sector because the health test sector is great, there's lots of money there. It doesn't work like that.

Christophe Jauquet: 25:15

I'm just gonna I when you said oh, great technology, we need to have this. And I immediately had to think of all the startups that I know that had physicians in them or as founder. So I often see that same, it's not just somebody who wants to go into healthcare. Sometimes they're already in healthcare and they see the technology and think, oh, we should do this because this technology is amazing. So I just wanted to say that I had also this me personally, I had this idea of oh, these are all the physician startups, but yeah, no, not always.

Aline Noizet: 25:42

No, no, sure, sure. What I found is that the startups with patients involving them, they are the strongest because they know the problem in inside out, like they have lived that situation, so that they really develop solutions that make sense. Well, then there's the business involved, it's not always successful, but for me, they're the strongest, they go the furthest. And those who have technologies coming from other sectors and trying to push it to healthcare, it's not always so successful.

Christophe Jauquet: 26:12

Yeah.

Aline Noizet: 26:13

So that's the first part about creation of the startup. And then looking at the startup from like a startup who's trying to attract people. I think that's maybe where you were going, like the culture inside the company. So what I've seen evolving those past years is that the younger generation, they have different expectations, what they look at the workplace, what they want in a in a company. And I've spoken about that with friends who have startups themselves, and they have to adapt a bit when they want to attract talent. So the younger generation are more interested in like quality of life. So that they don't want to be working till like 10 at night. They want to have some games like a fun office, like yeah, maybe video games or ping-pong. Exactly, exactly this. And yeah, they want to be the their freedom, they stay in a company maybe for three years. So that's their health asm. And you have to take that into account. You have to understand the people that are gonna be joining you, what are they interested in, what does health asm mean to them, and to integrate that in your in your culture and your startup.

Christophe Jauquet: 27:24

And then we come to you, Vegana.

Begoña San José: 27:27

What I see as well is it's a lot of people in the healthcare industry in general, but in startups in particular, that are forgetting themselves in the journey. So I see a lot of people burning themselves out, which doesn't do any good to any one of us. So if we get the people with the great ideas and great projects and potentially able to raise one, two, three finance rounds of investments around them, but they neglect themselves along the way, or they disconnect with the reason why they started, or they misalign with the values that drove them to solve that problem in the first place, and it's not sustainable. So it doesn't build the resilience that we need from the system. And it's not so much of the people itself, it's a systemic failure. So it's a system that leads to that. So we I've I've actually worked in a startup and I work with and for startups myself as well. And to be driving what we do today, depending on the next finance round, is not necessarily the way forward to bring the innovation.

Christophe Jauquet: 28:37

That's a lot of pressure, yeah, time pressure.

Begoña San José: 28:39

It's a lot of pressure that is not well that is not justified or is not properly absorbed by the system, let's say.

Christophe Jauquet: 28:48

I once had just to piggyback on that, there was a huge debate on LinkedIn where successful far startup founder exited already, I think, once or twice, was talking about hustle culture. And he was specifically referring to France, Aline, where he said that startups in France they have no hustle culture, they stop at five o'clock, and this is completely unacceptable. It's like and he made a poor reference. I actually you know talked about it with him. He referred to top sporters, top supporters go all the way in and they don't give up and they go all in. I was like, no, it's not true. They do a lot of recovery. Actually, most of their work is actually recovery, so it's a bad reference. But he was actually blaming certain types of startups for not having that hustle culture. Well, he himself already had a burnout, so it's pretty remarkable what you say.

Begoña San José: 29:45

And they're actually saying how many burnouts they've gone through. So I this is my third burnout, and I have already and it's like really, and we're I mean I'm part of Tech2 Impact back home in Vienna, and they've been raising money to study and to prevent burnout in impact funders, because without this innovation and without this fire that brings this innovation forward in the impactful sectors in the industry, and of course, health is one of the top ones in the list, then what? Then we keep on having the same thing, and that's not something we all want. And if we ask what is the healthcare system we want in the future, let that be tomorrow? Yeah, we don't want it to remain the way it is right now. I think I can we can ask the audience if they would like to go to a doctor and wait for an appointment, or wait so many hours, or have five minutes of a visit, or have a prescription as they walk before they walk out the door, they already have the prescription, or would they rather have quality time with the doctors where they understand what the what is going on and contextualize and personalize and understand a bit of the root causes as Eileen was mentioning earlier, yeah?

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 30:54

Maybe I can share an interesting project and it is about new narratives and health.

And we did this in four countries: 30:59

the UK, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. Three meetings where we were dreaming about the future in 2040. And the interesting part was that we had stakeholder meetings where all actors were in the room. So we had patients, young, old, we had people from pharma, from insurance company, academics, medical, social, and we were dreaming together about the future of 2040. What do you think?

Christophe Jauquet: 31:28

Well, you mean like the sentiments?

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 31:30

It was well, the interest, yeah. What do you think what came out? Because it was exactly the same. It didn't matter. We were in the UK, France, Belgium, or the Netherlands. And it didn't matter what the work was the people did. Because if you work as an insurance or you're an academic, as human beings, we dreamed about how does it look like? It was about trust, it was about connection, it was about seeing the humans as a whole, it was about fun, and it was about making things more simple. And this was exactly the same in all four countries.

Christophe Jauquet: 32:03

How many money did you pay to do that study?

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 32:06

Not much. It was like Ashoka, the social entrepreneurs. So it was so interesting. And you know what happens? Everybody is complaining about the system. Because if you everybody thinks if the system changed, something changed. But we gotta change. We're the solution. It doesn't matter where you are.

Kateryna Ostrovska: 32:23

I would probably add to the idea of changing the system. So, in the sense how we structure the payment in the system, it might influence and destroy the market, that's some saturation points in certain innovation, it just supersedes the others. And let's be honest, health tech is underfinanced. And there is a few kind of initiatives that kind of manage to raise enough funding. And it also the case that I think that we need we need to acknowledge that US can afford being not as efficient as European markets because there are not as much VC capital or capital itself here to be inefficient. So this is how should be reconsidered when the need and the finance is being constructed within the systems. So we place the importance on different on different initiatives that need to develop new solutions to the problems we're trying to solve, but not to kind of to struggle to for getting the funding. Because where the money there will be the idea brought about, right? I'm sorry for being so pragmatic after such high and inspirational ideas. I feel like the person who spoiled the day.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 33:42

Well, it's about dreaming or being realistic, of course. But I guess if you really want to make a change and it's good, the money will money will follow. So as an innovator, you're always ahead of things to change. If you wait for systems to change, nothing's going to happen. We don't have time for that. It's urgent.

Christophe Jauquet: 34:00

Yeah, definitely. You wanted to jump in?

Begoña San José: 34:04

Yeah, I think I think there are two things. The one is the system. I think we need to get accountability of we are the system. So we're not waiting for anyone to come out there and say this is changing. It has to start from ourselves and from inside. And having worked more than 20 years in insurance, yes, I have worked more than 20 years in insurance. I can tell a bit about the money, and maybe it's a reallocation of resources question. Point number one, maybe. And then there are many things that improve our health that cost nothing at all. And I'm in a panel for social prescribing tomorrow. But actually is the is yeah, the result of having these devices in our pocket is we need to actually get prescribed, being out there, outdoors in the forest, or having some time to do something creative, or engaging with our hobbies or our families, or something like that. So, yes, it does come with money. I don't think I mean it was mentioned today also in the at the beginning of the conference that we just need to reallocate the resources and continue spending money that needs spending instead of investing money in the wrong things will not give us different results. And looking at the whole thing from scratch and say, okay, if I have five euro, which is what I have, it will not stretch, it will not be ten, it will not be with case.

Christophe Jauquet: 35:35

And that's what makes the Middle East super interesting. Every time I'm there, they start basically from scratch, right? And so the way that they move forward is super interesting.

Begoña San José: 35:44

It's redefining it. I mean, I cannot understand as of today, and I was at the gynecological office last week doing my annual checkup, which I recommend everybody do. Whoever is in the medical practice waits for X amount of time to see one doctor, and half of what the doctor has to say can be shared in the waiting room. We are all going there, and she has to repeat and explain to everybody that the pub results will not be shared with you unless they are pathological, and they have to repeat themselves what happens when you do this and what you do that, and half of it is like completely 80% can be common. And it doesn't have to be on a one-to-one, it can be on a one-to-many basis, but we haven't even thought of it. And so, why don't we use that space and then call every patient that has an appointment between 10 and 11, share some of the things, create the community, share the problems that we're having, what you're doing, what you are what I'm doing, what you're not doing, and so on. And then, yeah, you can have five minutes of personalized care, but having done 80% of the common grounds for the it's just a reinvention of the system. So it's a way of looking at things from scratch and saying, okay, how can I how can I fix it? My last piece on health management, actually, you may have seen it, is on Kinsugi leadership. So, why don't we fix the healthcare system that is broken with the Kinchuggi keramics methodology, which makes it more valuable after it was fixed than before? So, how do we fix the system so that it's better than it was before it broke?

Christophe Jauquet: 37:23

Is that the kamics that are fixed with the gold?

Begoña San José: 37:26

Exactly. Yeah, that applied that parallel thinking applied to how would you fix the broken healthcare system in a way that you put gold into that and make it even more valuable and more beautiful than it was before.

Christophe Jauquet: 37:41

So Aline, go ahead.

Aline Noizet: 37:43

Yeah, maybe something that kept to mind because I really like your idea of like grouping people in the in the waiting room. I think the power of the community, power of the patient, because at the end, us patients, we know ourselves better than anybody else. And maybe the doctor they can't know everything, right? And you have just like that short time to see patient, but maybe in the waiting room, what will happen is that patient will start talking between each other, say, ah, I have that. Oh, me too. Then what happened to you? So creating that synergies between the patient can also help like re reinvent or transform the healthcare system and improve our health as a as a consequence. And it could be moderated.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 38:25

So we have great of these examples already, and we don't even want to have the people in the waiting room. We have there's like sessions of people.

Christophe Jauquet: 38:31

What a word also. I mean, waiting room. Can we can we get lost on the word waiting room? Yeah, what industry works with waiting rooms for Christ's sake?

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 38:40

I agree. Yeah, it should be interesting. How could you call that? Like a health enthusiasm room. But anyway, there's like we, for instance, we have an example, it's called Buddy House, and this is for females who had breast cancer, and they connect and match patients with breast cancer with each other. And this is so more, much more worth than having a doctor telling a talking to a patient with breast cancer because if you experience this before, you can be you don't even have to say anything, you understand each other. And this we have a lot of expert groups where people are there for each other in all kinds of yeah, in all kinds of well, diseases or practical things they have.

Christophe Jauquet: 39:22

Yeah, one thing that is happening is that I know about such examples in the stage, and I don't know about such examples in Europe. We don't share enough innovations in Europe. If you go online and you look for innovations in health, the only thing you find is China and US. Well, there's so much happening here.

Begoña San José: 39:37

I had actually had that question at lunch, and a local film asked me, What's what do you think we're doing not so right? And I said, Look, if I look at as you're saying, we can hear Singapore and we can hear the US and whatever. In Europe, we can hear Estonia, for example, yeah, for sure as the digital health leading country, so to speak. But if it wasn't because of radical health festival, I wouldn't know anything at all about what the Finland is doing in terms of improving health. And they are a number of things and a number of best practices that we could do much better if we know about them. And I actually provocatively suggested that next year we have a session on failure. So when we are vulnerable and we are able to share what we failed upon, then we're likely to not repeat the same mistake simply because we don't have time to make all the mistakes ourselves.

Christophe Jauquet: 40:33

Startups have that mentality, fuck up Fridays, they call it, and they talk about all the fuck-ups that they've done. Katarina.

Kateryna Ostrovska: 40:40

Yeah, I really like that. We started talking very openly about the failures, about mistakes, about the kind of burden in the system. And I think that let's say lean management, it was kind of compromised during COVID, it was blamed for inconsistent delivery of medical substances, kind of for this restocking problem. But in the sense, if we start analyzing our services from the perspective if it's a waste or it's a value, it's just kind of moving from A to Z, understanding that's kind of like alluding to this waiting room is waiting is necessary, and there is kind of, I mean, those practices there already exist, they are kind of evidence-based. We don't use them why so it's just kind of about questioning ourselves why, and this the way how this different types of mistake mistakes might be presented and analyzed, it might be a really interesting conversation and even a conference. I would so be happy to go there to hear to learn more because success is something is to listen to get inspired, but everyday life is learning from the mistakes itself, right?

Christophe Jauquet: 41:52

I think one of the big challenges for conference organizers would be they always try to limit each session to one hour. But if you start talking about failure, you should be probably doing maybe it's a whole stage about failure, that might be a good thing. I want to still stay with the system, the health systems that we see, because we talked touched upon in a little bit. Maybe two questions. You can decide which one you ask the answer. One is do the health systems already have enough health throughism? I think the answer is quite double, probably. But do you see any good examples? Because I think we're on a good role, we see some positive things, we see some things changing. Within the health systems, Katarina, do you see any good examples that might have a bit more of Healthusiasm than others? Or how do you look at it? Things. I mean, we were talking about Estonia. I saw you nodding. It did are there things there that you say, oh, this is pretty good indeed.

Kateryna Ostrovska: 42:47

whatever surprising this might sound, but I think COVID, there was the time when the medical professionals were finally recognized, but how they were treated afterwards, many of them were disappointed and just even went into the complete burnout. So, in the sense, we need to acknowledge more and understand how we can redesign the system. And I think the Nordic Salidiness sense, because the visionary of women's health presented for the Nordic country, it has a potential for spillover. In the sense, this might be an idea how we can bring about the women's health as the discussion point, as an entry point for politicians, but also given that Nordic countries are pioneers in the sense of gender equality, they have they will have a lead through Baltic countries, and who knows, it might be kind of a cascade reaction across Europe. So I would say probably both, and I think you will have more to add to this. Yeah.

Begoña San José: 43:54

I have a question with the with regards to the Corona times and the heroes. And the recognition of the job that the physicians for healthcare providers of the first line were doing because we raised them to the category of superheroes, disabling them from feeling vulnerable, tired, frustrated, because I don't know any superhero that actually says I'm exhausted, I cannot take it anymore, you know, as a superman, you know, you just go and keep going, no? So I think that was one of the things that would maybe not so clearly go with, but of course the recognition of healthcare professionals as well as teachers, for example, is essential so that they also feel their value in the whole value chain. Because I think that we're talking about the healthcare system, and the word system means constellation system. We interact with one another, we affect one another. What I do affects you, and what you do affects me, and so the story goes. So, how can we together be on one mission and not everybody on their single individual mission of arranging? We are all into improving healthcare.

Christophe Jauquet: 45:07

Well, I think I do agree when you say that maybe the hero story that was taught to physicians and healthcare professionals was maybe not the best one. It's you don't do that with your child as well. You don't always say that he's wonderful and amazing, and you sometimes have to, you know, be reasonable. What I do like, and what where I do think that they were more than rightfully so recognized is in taking initiative and trying to innovate, innovate things, and trying to make things move forward. And I think there after COVID, we dropped that ball again. Whether it is in hospitals, whether it is individual practitioners, Carolini might have some examples and feelings there as well as a as a GP. I think there is where we lost their recognition. It's not too much about the hero story, it's about the responsibility, the accountability, the freedom is maybe not the right words here, but you know, trusting. We talked about trust before, that they can do the right thing, that they have that health easiest and to make things make things happening.

Begoña San José: 46:10

And the system supports them because you still need the net to be able to do the jump.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 46:18

I wonder if we needed so much recognition, but it's just our work, you know. this is my work to work in healthcare and that it has a responsibility. And what I saw what was great is that we had a shared vision. So we were able to collaborate. And as soon as COVID was gone, everybody went back into the silo and was and was thinking about their own things. And it's also interesting, we were able to move very quickly to get vaccinations on a very quickly time. We were able to get a lot of online working, we were able to deliver care in a different way, and COVID was gone, and a lot of people, of course, a few things stayed, but a lot of people said, Oh, I still want to see my patient, I still want to do it. And they went back to the old system. So I'm like, what do we what do we keep? What is helpful? And why do we have the feeling to go back to where that's resistant to change?

Aline Noizet: 47:13

But I think patients were also asking for that. I remember going to the hospital in Barcelona, like outpatient, and the hospital was full, and the doctor was telling me, No, but patients want that face-to-face, they want the in-person visit.

Karolien van den Brekel-Dijkstra: 47:26

So it's maybe it's not just our healthcare professionals because in that hospital, video consultation is big, but still But it's it that also is per person different because I have a lot of young people who don't want to come if they want they just want to have digital services, and I have elderly people who say, 'Can you do a home visit?' and I have people who want to prepare their visits with positive health. So we have all different that's not one size fits all, but it seems that we organize it right away back to the one size fits all. And I think that will be interesting to do to make this more flexible.

Aline Noizet: 48:01

If I can go back to your previous question of example in a system. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. So it's not on like on the country level, but just small, like a concrete example in a hospital, and it's called the silent hospital. So in the in the UK.

Begoña San José: 48:17

Yeah, yeah, I read about it. It's amazing.

Aline Noizet: 48:19

Yeah. So they're actually using technology to reduce noises. huh. So they really take into account the patients, and they want to improve outcomes for the patient. So everything is more silent. So when you need to contact the nurse, like everything is done like through special technology, but it's silent. So there's no big alarms in the in the hospital. So it patients are sleeping better. Healthcare professionals, they have less that alarm burden on them. So I think it's a great example of how technology is having a positive impact and really taking into account the patient and outcomes for them.

Begoña San José: 48:59

Yeah, it gets a vibration on the phone. So it that it doesn't sound like B, B, B, B, B. And that's also important for the well-being of the healthcare providers as well as for the patients. It's one of these great examples that yeah, ideas worth sharing. We should have a health-dedicated one so that we can be faster at sharing those ideas and implementing it. There's another one that marks the chemotherapy spots for children using simple pens that have a needle inside, but they have a superhero needle and then and then the mark that they make on the kid to mark where the chemotherapy point should go is actually done with a superhero pen.

Aline Noizet: 49:43

Yeah, and you have these, I think, MRIs as well that are that are like yeah, well, there's the power of visualization and the video games, yeah, reality cells.

Christophe Jauquet: 49:54

Which what is very interesting to see is that if I if I look at hospitals, healthcare providers in general, and we're talking about healthism and a great experience, like the most I'll say differently, if I speak to hospitals, for example, I go online and I look for examples of hospitals and initiatives in hospitals that showcase a lot of healthism, I always end up in children's hospitals, and that is something so you know, I don't understand why it is only possible in children's hospitals. It's not like they have more money, it's just why is it that they can do the effort because it's children, and as soon as there's adults, we kind of not we get sedious. Yeah, why should we do it?

Kateryna Ostrovska: 50:37

We get serious, yeah. I think it's a very professional-driven construction to have big, sexy hospitals, right? So it's just it's something that we can reconsider. It's about health, not about healthcare again. So, in the sense, it's constructed for us for our convenience, right? If we redesign, we need to think what would be the decision, what would be what would be the solution to the problem. And it's quite often out of the vision of the medical professionals. And I think that also needs to be reconsidered for adult population, right? Whether we'll be redesigning, with keeping in mind that the demographics is of this kind, we're expecting there will be more women, Europe is aging in anything of that kind. So, how can we also bring it to as close as to the customer? I mean, what do you mean the word patient, the P word to say? So, how can we bring it closer? And it to some degree it this loads professionals as well. So lovely.

Begoña San José: 51:48

We are facilitating some of that in some of the serious hospitals, I would say. One is by getting them closer to nature, so arranging outings for this stuff in the woods or in the forest or in the park of the hospital, or even recreating a little forest at the hospital or at the healthcare facility. For the patients, I don't know, for the consumers of healthcare, for the providers themselves, for whoever may need a piece of space of a bubble in which they can also feel differently. All these aseptic guidelines is also part of the seriousness of the grown-up hospitals as compared to the children one, no?

Christophe Jauquet: 52:30

Yeah.

Aline Noizet: 52:31

We talked about it in the opening session last night at Radical Health Festival where Jordy was presenting P8, so a prevention clinic, and he says that they are gonna be doing their sessions in the nature, as you said, just putting two sofas outside in the nature.

Begoña San José: 52:49

I think that's that's great. Yeah, we needed liability insurance just for your information. So insurance is one of the ones that you need to be covered for whatever may happen outside the hospital wards when you take patients out. But that's a minimum regulation tick on the box in this case. But it's interesting that we would only cover things that happen within the walls when healthcare happens everywhere. Yeah, health happens everywhere, and therefore caring for health should also.

Christophe Jauquet: 53:17

I was thinking about imagine if right now in Helsinki we would be sitting outside in the woods in a chair with 20 met 20 centimeters of snow. And maybe as we are wrapping up this podcast, we have one of the organizers that is entering just the room as we speak. Pascal, please join. He's almost refusing to join, but there's still one microphone on the table. Pascal, we were just wrapping up this podcast about health enthusiasm. We talked about the culture, everything that's within the entire ecosystem needs to change, how even from the policy standpoint, startup standpoints, company standpoints, provider standpoint needs to have more health enthusiasm. And I we believe that what you've done here with the radical health festival is definitely adding to that. I think you bring this Healthusiasm, you make sure that you talk about its radical actions, radical inaction. Radical inactions. I think this is exactly what we need. So we'd like to thank you for that, but we also would like to give you the last word to maybe say what you wanted to achieve with the festival, what how you feel after now one day and a half of festival and what you're looking forward to.

Pascal (Radical Health Festival): 54:33

Well, first of all, I think we call it a festival because it's a collaboration of content contributors. We don't pretend to know everything about everything in healthcare. So when we want to approach a topic, we ask the best people who are best organizations that can answer. It's radical because we are not afraid of you know, asking the tough questions. I think when we talk about prevention and precision health, we always hear good intentions, but we never talk about money. The session that is following this one is actually about how do we finance prevention. We know that in Europe we still spend, I think, between 3 and 5% on prevention, and the rest goes to acute care. So at some point we need to put the money where we say our intentions are. We're also radical because right now in Europe we're in a difficult position, and we've had a few sessions today about considering healthcare as a critical infrastructure. Unfortunately, in the last few months, we've seen hospitals being targeted. I mean, there's nothing more sad than that. And I think it's a tough discussion that we need to have, but we need to have it because it's a pressing issue. And I'm really glad that you are hosting this podcast with us. It's very fun.

Christophe Jauquet: 56:08

Thank you, Pascal, for these last words, and I'd like to thank all the members and the panelists of today for their Healthm world indeed. But time to wrap up the Healthusiasm podcast. Thank you for listening. If you like the show, hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform. You can also visit Healthusiasm.com to subscribe to the newsletter and learn more about our panelists. For now, I'd like to thank our panelists for their healthsiasm. Thank you, Aline Noiset, thank you, Pascal Ladier, for joining us as well. Thank you, Bigonia San Jose, thank you, Karolien van den Breekeldextra, and thank you, Katerina Ostrovska. This is the Health Yasm panel. My name is Christophe Jauquet, and we'd love to see you again next month for some more Healthusiasm. Ciao