№10 – From IFF Scent Manager to Luisa Jo Founder with Franziska Josteit

After more than 12 years in the fragrance industry, where she served in various roles at International Flavors & Fragrances (IFF), Franziska Josteit founded her high-end perfume brand, "Luisa Jo - Wild Perfumery." Here are some key pieces of career advice she shares in this episode:

1. Talk to strangers: Discussions on a train can open up new industries to you.
2. Study foreign languages: Learning French is essential for the industry, and other languages can also be beneficial.
3. Always ask if you want to move to something new: Being proactive about your career moves is crucial. That's it.
4. Be ready to wait: Sometimes advancing in your career or starting a new venture requires patience and following someone's "vision" on how to do that.
5. Be curious about other cultures: The more curious you are, the better.
6. Accept criticism and work with feedback: This piece of advice is probably the most important in the whole industry.
7. Prepare for a safe leaving: Have a solid plan and safety net in place when making significant career changes.

Follow and connect with Franziska Josteit and her brand Luisa Jo - Wild Perfumery through the links below:

• Franziska Josteit on LinkedIn
•  Luisa Jo Official Website
•  Follow Luisa Jo on Instagram

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

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get quite some emails from people that are still in corporate asking me like how did you do it? I call you? m I also want to leave but I'm not sure how and yeah I know what you mean. oh Hi and welcome to How I Became a Perfumer podcast. In each episode we are exploring the different roles and opportunities in the fragrance industry, as well as talk to founders of the independent olfactory projects. My name is Tanya Mironova and I am here to help you sniff out the best career opportunities. My guest for today's episode is Franziska Jovstide. Franziska studied finance and business in Paris, London and Amsterdam. She worked more than 12 years. at International Flavors and Fragrances, which we will further refer as IFF, where her last job title was a scent design manager. After these years in the industry, she created a high-end perfume brand called Luisa Jo, while perfumery. Franziska, welcome to the show! Thank you. Thank you very much for the invite. Well, I'm so happy to have you and been following you for a while. Your energy is just... me too. Guess which one was sent in. Well, thank you. I really love your energy. And I was so surprised to find out that you worked in a corporate environment for 12 years. A lot of people don't have any energy after that, I believe. Hahaha Apart from maybe staying in the corporate world, but you're very special. So my first question is, you're a very creative person. How initially you found yourself in finance and business? Good question indeed. I come from a family where perfumery was not one of the options, let's say, to study. So I was looking to, like I had just finished my A-levels. I was open for something creative, but thought about interior design maybe. But then I was a bit curious also in other directions. I was not sure about what I would do, so I just thought why. not maybe just study business and finance, which gives me a good, I don't know, foundation kind of. But then I thought in order to be a bit different and to have a bit more fun, I wanted to live in Paris. So I just, that was my idea. Okay, I combine a bit. I also love the language French, was one of my passions at school as well. So then at least I thought it's a nice. a challenge for myself to study finance and business in Paris and that was, yeah, was in the end really nice. Well, that's interesting and like maybe our listeners don't know about your mother tongue is German I'm German indeed, I'm German. yeah, when I was then, yeah, the entrepreneurship was something that I really wanted to discover, but then I thought business and finance gave me good foundation. So then it gives me a bit of time also to see what I will do once I'm done so that I'm bit open. to anything that comes along. And what happened, I was in the tallies going back home for a weekend and I met a woman, she was next to me and that was a big learning for me. It's always good to talk to strangers. And she told me that she works at Simrise. And I didn't know about Simrise and what those companies exist, know, that was totally new to me. uh And I was very intrigued about the fact that there are companies that produce perfumes on a big scale. So I had from that moment on, I had in my mind kind of, once I'm done, I will definitely for sure look at a position at one of those companies. So you felt the initial connection to the fragrance world even though you didn't consider it. Yeah, back then when I met this woman, I was still studying. think I was in my first year of my bachelor or something. So then I knew, okay, I keep it in mind. Once I'm done, I will have a reach out, you know, and I will see if I can find a position in one of those companies. Great, mean like the first piece of advice talk to strangers. It's very good for the careers and also for life What happened then Yeah, I went to London for my third year. did a French study and that was two years, only two years and then I did the third year in London simply because Germany was a bit more difficult on... you know, they didn't know the French system and yeah, they make it more difficult. So London was really easygoing, a public university there, just asking for the international credit points. And once I did my degree in London, I wanted to do a master. And again, Germany was two years master and Amsterdam was one year and it was all in English. So there was no language issue. Yeah. So then I decided to go to Amsterdam. And after I finished my graduation, I replied at IRF in Hilversum, which was close to Amsterdam. That was my idea. And they saw, of course, on my CV, it was written that I'm German, they needed somebody in Germany. There was just somebody being pregnant. And so they asked me to come to Hamburg in the sales office, which also made a lot of sense that I started in sales because I just studied business and finance. So that was a good entrance. So they gave me the opportunity to work in sales as traineeship basically for one year. I did marketing and sales for the German customers, of fine fragrance, beauty care. Hamburg used to be small, I think it was 14 people. I needed to do a little bit of everything kind of. Were there any similarities to what you learned and what you needed to do at the company or you just learned by doing? Yeah, I remember I started em and I was first day of sitting in one of the meetings, like weekly meetings. And I was totally overwhelmed because the industry as you might know is very complex. You know, that was a small sales office, so all the samples are coming from Paris, but other samples are coming from Hilversum and about our customers, suppliers and all those. names, I was totally overwhelmed. was sitting there, okay, this is next level. I need to adjust and take my time to figure out what are the streams that I need to, you know, need to understand here. But yeah, I mean, the study was very different, of course. The industry is very, very specific, let's say. But I guess the study was still giving me a good basic knowledge and also just to be open in different languages. We had a lot of contact, of course, with the Paris Creative Center. So my French was also very welcome, let's say. yeah, Torsali, English also, always good for emails and stuff. yeah, I think I didn't know about ISIPCA back then. So that was my way to kind of figure out how I can enter the industry. But I see at least a few coincidences which are very interesting, you know, to look from the perspective. Like you talked to a woman in a train, like a classic situation for a movie, and then you applied for a position and they really needed you, because we know how committed the industry is and the fact that they needed exactly you, though in Hamburg, not in the Netherlands, but again, still worked. But how do you find yourself transitioning further to the next role? and were you studying or at least somehow developing your sense of smell in this transitional process because I believe it's not possible not to. Yeah, I worked for two, two and a half years, guess, in Hamburg. And then I noticed that I would be close, I would like to be closer to the product itself. And I noticed that sales is not my biggest passion, which I knew already before, I guess, to be honest. But yeah. So, and I also always thought as well, Hamburg is a great... starting point, let's say it's small and kind of cozy, 14 people to understand the business. That was great. But then basically where everything came from, so kind of where the music is really playing was in Hyves, mostly, or in Paris. So I was a bit like, would like to, I think, learn more now and go to the creative center where really everything is happening and the real experts are sitting there for different uh positions. So they gave me a position and consumed my insight. What's that for those who don't know? Yeah, indeed. So consumer insights, was also, I never heard about it before, but it made sense in a way. So to directly transition to the more creative side was not really possible because I had no training whatsoever. mentioned the SIPCA so the competitors are looking at you and thinking like hmm well we won't give you these places right now No, indeed. But consumer insights means it's quite an analytical job, basically. So my finance background did make a lot of sense and my sales position there already made a lot of sense. Consumer insights means that I needed to generate basically testing. It's the department where all the consumer tests are done, done or basically analyzed more or less, because we have the companies that do the real testings for us. but we need to do the analytics in terms of really getting the insights out. So that was a very nice job, which was not my passion again at all, quite analytical. You could honestly say to yourself like I don't feel like it's mine. I want something else. I'm asking about it So I believe it's also at least the second piece of advice if the first was the train talks Yeah, yeah, true, true. Yeah, and also accept that there are moments like, yeah, those four years, basically five years of my first contact in this or positions in the company were not my dream jobs. Now I did two years, I guess, in consumer insights, knowing from the start that this is not my dream. But it was very helpful in getting me, you know, where I wanted to go. the end. And it's also interesting because now I was in this huge setting. So in Haversund there are more than 500 people. think nowadays even 600 people. A lot of experts. You have everything from finance, know, to marketing and to technical perfumers to scent design department and also consumer insights. That was really nice because I could go for lunch, know, different people ask for advice here and there, and I could also uh figure out for myself what do I actually want after that. That was a good step already. And consumer insight was, yeah, was very interesting because I had a lot of contact with the perfumers. So you're very close to the perfumers because they create perfumes, which are then proposed to customers. Let's say I was... Mostly focusing on fabric care, everything like detergent and fabric softness was my specification basically. oh I believe that for IFF it's one of the major categories. Yes, Hevershock is the creative center for fabric care, everything that has to do with laundry. Basically, we have then customers and those customers were looking, let's say, for a new blue detergent, a blue fabric softener in a specific market, let's say, Italy. And what I learned is that perfume is very culturally rooted. You think Europe is maybe kind of similar or should be quite similar, but it's really not. A perfume, a blue fabric conditioner that you would propose in France would definitely not work in Italy. We had also customers in Israel, you know, and different countries. So I really needed to learn, like, what are the specific, culturally specific things for each of the countries. I needed also to travel quite sometimes in order to do in-home visits. So we visited people at home to understand how they will do the round-trip of any very special destinations. Yes, lot of Paris we went to customers and Italy we went to people. Also to have uh focus groups, so like 10 housewives talking to each other. and you're filming it for the next movie now. I actually got to know like, you know, you can have the nicest perfume, but if nobody wants it, yeah, there's no market for it. have to, and that was then, that's what consumer insight is about. You need to really find out what consumers want and give the feedback back to the perfumers because perfumers are also sometimes then really in their own world, very creative, oh and they believe this is perfect, but... then you have to kind of feed back what the consumer is thinking and then adapt with them what the perfume should then look like. oh I feel like this feedback uh thing is kind of difficult for people to accept for the creative people. How did you feel? Like, have you directly brought the results of the tests to them or you just like uploaded them in the system and just never saw a few restrictions? no, no, I did because then Hilversum is, yes, they are just around your corner basically in a different m office. So I just went to them and said like, yeah, listen, these are those are the wizards. oh What I see. Yeah, but the good thing is it's not my opinion, you know, if it would be my opinion, I think they would have killed me indeed. oh But this was then easy because I could say like, yeah. you know those effects we tested and also not just 30 people but then maybe 150 you know and then you see clear results and that means that the consumer, the perfumer has to go back to work and to rework the fragrance according to the outcomes. It's a big thing for them. It's always a big thing to accept criticism. And I think in the industry, it's a huge hurdle. If you want to progress, you will have to accept criticism. But it's not the criticism of you and your work. It's just about knowing people, as you've said. Knowing your audience. How many years did it take for you to feel empowered enough to ask for the third position, in fact, in the company? Yeah, I think I learned a lot from the consumer insight department. And then I, yeah, loudly spoke out that kind of I'm interested in a sense design position. I noticed already kind of the atmosphere also that's there and because you, yeah, that also shapes your job basically. need to know if there are nice people there, working there. felt really like a good place for me to be. So then I told my boss that I'm interested in a scent design position. And back then the big boss was a person who started in project coordination, kind of coordinator role. And he was convinced whenever somebody wants to become a scent design manager, you need to first start in project coordination. I was a bit like, but for me that's kind of a step back because... m Yeah, I already did sales in also the consumer insight. It looks like you had enough experience to be coordinating projects, But it's about the ways... It was a principle, it was his principle. And I think he didn't want to let go from this principle and made an exception. That was the idea. So I was a bit like hesitant, but they offered me to have 50-50. So one year it was because I said as well, you need to kind of time it, you know, that it's not like, oh, you're going to project coordination. And then three years later, I'm still stuck there. I made sure like I'm really looking at the time, you know. And then they said to me, offer you a half-half position. So half project coordination, half traineeship, scent design management. So that we already get prepared for the job. So I was like, okay, that's a good one. interesting. And project coordination, was I could see why the Big Boss was so fond of this because indeed you learn a lot about like what is actually, because then you serve the scent design managers. like an assistant to the Send Design Managers in terms of like project uh deadlines, uh shipping, all the administrative work that needs to be done for the Send Design Managers. It's like, the very old way to train perfumers, right? You get an apprentice and like the apprentice has like, I saw different things from different centuries, around eight years of just helping to a perfumer to get there and it seems like the old way of doing things is still present. Yeah, that's true. That's totally, that's how I also felt. In the end, I know he was having a point because then I noticed as well when I was a project coordinator, oh yeah, that's important, you know, for the same design managers, the deadlines, how it all works, how long everything takes from creation until that it's really at the customer's warehouse. So all those things was indeed a good training. And I also, had a really nice boss at this time. He knew I wanted to grow and he gave me quite a lot of nice projects, side projects, which had already something to do with the sentry's end. So for instance, he asked me if I can organize four days uh perfume training for newcomers. Yeah. People that are new to the company that start sometimes in, yeah, they can say it's all. in finance, you know, and they have never heard about Perfume Away before, basically, but they were in the end sell uh our perfumes. Right. So they should understand a little bit more. And I was totally free to design those four days according to my taste. So that was amazing for me. So I had, I think like 20 people from all over the world flying to Heversong and I could train them for four days in Perfume Away. really love the parallel between you said in the very beginning that you were thinking about interior design. So the idea of design was in your head for quite a while. And then you came to this design in the training again and the same design position. So very interesting. The keyboard was already... Yeah, true. didn't see that before. Yeah, good. And we were there too. Yeah, so that was great because for this training, I needed to ask then a few different people if they can come as guest speaker to fill those four days. And I needed to learn a lot myself about like I prepared all those presentations that I did for those people. Yeah, that was a great, great, great opportunity that I got. And then the year was over and I directly got a position as a design associate, first of all, and then design manager where I wanted to end up basically. So that was nice that I could actually make it. I, in order to get the job, I needed to do a four or four and a half hours or something. nose test. Not everybody can enter the scent design department because training is one thing but they also check if you have the capabilities in terms of physical smelling, you know. So they did a test with me and if the result was good they let me in basically and that was really good. The test outcome was super so then they trained me a lot. Every week I had or sitting with the perfumers to talk about like history of fine perfumery or smelling all the different ingredients that are on the parlay at IFF. What's new on the market or the new launches. Everything was about like training me and that was really cool. uh Yeah, did you at that point feel that you're at the right place? Yes, yes, I did. Yeah, it was a very good team. A lot of nice people, exciting projects. Yeah, was a very supportive network. The perfumers were also great. Now I was then traveling with a different cap on, let's say, with a different hat. Not so much like in consumer inside anymore, but sometimes you travel then to customers and present, for instance. Yeah, no, I felt good there. The only thing that happened is that my own company. Oh yeah, oh yeah. How much time did you spend as a design manager at IFF? I was also pregnant to us in between and there was COVID also. But in the end, think four years, maybe more, maybe five years here, a lot of time to learn and to, yeah, different projects, different customers, different countries. Are there any lesser known aspects of design which you discovered for yourself and maybe people don't really know about and are fascinated to know about from your experience? Meet someone at the gathering and say, well, I'm a design manager. And they say, well, like what are the most surprising things for them, which you maybe... oh Yeah, I think for people that are not from the industry, oh is quite weird, the title, are you designing the perfumes? Since design manager, I always say it's something in between the salesperson and the perfume. Because the perfumer is very knowledgeable, but in their own worlds, dreamy artistic worlds basically. salesperson is on the other side of the extreme, you know. Quite focused on yeah, on the return of the investment and having all those figures in mind and sometimes forgetting and not being able to know what the consumer actually wants in terms of perfume. So, Synthesize Manager is something in between that has knowledge about the perfumery part, not as much into... the details as the perfumer, um but with a good nose. yeah, my job in French is called Évaluatrice. So you really have to evaluate all the perfumes and decide. basically the project manager in the end decides on which perfumes will be submitted to which customer. But I also had to know, of course, about the sales pack. So, budget. keeping an eye on the budget, being sure that their perfume is technically okay and that it's for the right country and that our margins are okay. So those things are also, it's a combination between sales and perfume really. It's a lot. What eventually inspired you to start your own brand? It really came by incident, I guess, because I had a boyfriend back then and he worked in the bank. And I was just about to have all those trainings, all those, we spent all the ingredients from IFF, single ingredients. I was making notes and I really made... A few notes always with the heart. I remember red hearts, the ones that I loved, know, the ingredients where I was like, smelling by themselves. They're really beautiful. And my boyfriend at this time said he didn't wear any perfume. And I said to him, I get all the perfumes for free from IFF, from Toneford or whatever you want to name it. And he didn't want any of those. said, why? He was like in the morning as a man you come out of the shower and you em spray the perfume on your skin. It's so overwhelming. It's just far too intense for me. And he said I didn't even have breakfast. So it's almost a bit sickly. And then you go to public transport and then you have this cloud here and the other cloud there. You cannot run away, but you have to smell those people. in the morning and then he says in the afternoon or evening he often went to customer dinner or events and he said then there's nothing left. So that's also something he didn't like. So it was really about the intensity. Too much at the beginning, not enough at the end. uh Plus he also says they're also sweet for men, swelling a bit similar to him, what's out there on the market. So I to him, listen, I just uh trained, you know, in terms of single ingredients, I'll make you something just for yourself, of course. See if you like it, more like a skin scent enhancer. Because of course, I'm not a perfumer, normal perfumes have like maybe 113 ingredients, you know, in the formula. That was not my intention, of course. But I thought... What if I just do something like a mix of nice ingredients that I love where I didn't let, and it didn't take the budget into account, you know, the boundaries. And I put it into an oil and not into alcohol. So normally what's on the market is all alcohol based. That's why the cloud in the morning and everything that evaporates is also gone, of course. That's why there was nothing left at the end. So I put it into an oil. uh organic coconut oil basically, without a smell. And he was wearing it uh and he came back the first evening and said, I went for lunch. And there was a lady, she was running ten times up and down and up and down. Everybody thought she's crazy. But then she pointed at him and said, it's you. You smell so great. I love it. And that was the first moment where I noticed, there's something maybe interesting happening. em And uh he got a lot of other funny comments from people. I was not able to wear my perfume at IFF because of course I need to smell neutral. But because it's an oil, I noticed that my clothing, the ones that you don't wash often, like your scarf, your jacket in winter and stuff. they were still smelling so I got comments from the perfumers, Franziska you're smelling too intense of your perfume. was like, oh, I didn't even put it. But it was, yeah, on the scarf, you know? And then it touched my skin again. So I got comments from people biking behind me saying, oh, it's a shame you're turning left, I need to go straight. I was like, oh, didn't even put my It's a shame you are turning left and only in the Netherlands. Indeed. yes, I have really a collection of those funny comments and feedback that I got. And with the time, I noticed, yeah, then I had a colleague, for instance, she not working in design management, she wanted to wear it, she loved my perfume. And she got a lot of comments from within IFF like, I know where you worked. I can smell the whole trail around you. was, yeah, I got a lot of nice feedback. And then of course, the intention was never there, but then as I got so much more feedback and people asking, and then more and more, the idea was implemented in my mind that maybe one day I could actually also do it, you know, as my own, my own company and start my brand. Initially that was not my idea at all. It was really simply for him. Yeah, and then this idea was getting bigger and bigger and I was also a bit scared of course to just leave my job because I liked it a lot. There was no urgency to leave, let's say. So I thought, yeah, it's difficult to combine of course. cannot, at least for me, I had two little kids then also. I was not able to find the time to do next to my job to start my own company. It was a full-time job. And then when I had the kids full days, but still the one day it's with the kids, it's even more than work, kind of. So, and I had to travel a lot, always at least two hours traveling per day. So I was not able, but what I did is yeah, I started my company, at least the things in the background, you know, I... I did while still at work, so I had my website done. I had the certification that it's safe on skin done in the background. So that when I really leave the company, leave IFF, my corporate security basically that I'm not starting from zero, but that I could start a bit um focusing on sales and focusing on things that generate already a bit money. How did you feel about that? Did you feel right? Did you feel scared? Because people maybe think that there is nothing scary about leaving the corporate job or the opposite. So what were your emotions? Yeah, good question. think it was such a process for me that I really, I was really then running around in my corporate job, having my idea, having also maybe playing with my thought of leaving, actively thinking for myself like, can I really leave this? Do you feel it? Am I ready? And... like giving it a bit time because yeah, as I said, there was no urgency. I really liked it, but I also felt, I think I went once with my boyfriend to a dinner and he said to me, what about your company, your own company? Is it still in your mind? And I said, I think looking back at my life when I'm an old grandmother and I would say that I always chose for the corporate. because of the security, because I had nice colleagues and good projects and everything was great. I think I would regret, I would have big, big regrets. And then my boyfriend was looking at me saying like, yeah, but what are you waiting then for? Yeah, the was over. So that was also something I wanted to wait because it was so uncertain. But then yeah, the crisis arrived. was everything, the prices went up of everything. And everybody was like, wow, you're leaving now in this uncertain time. But it was for me a longer process, you know, I was already preparing in my mind for quite some while, which nobody knew, of course, in the corporate setting, but I did. I, so when the day came that I really said I'm leaving, I was totally ready for it. I was, I was really very much looking forward. I was also prepared, like I kind of made a list for myself also what were the worst things that could happen, what are my biggest fears when I'm not in the corporate setting anymore. And I kind of thought about those, what I would do if, and I had all those mantras also kind of written down, the things that motivational speeches come and kick ass and all those. things. And then I was totally ready for them looking forward. And I remember when other people were leaving, I was always the one having tears in my eyes. I'm also the one that was, I don't know, at churches, know, weddings and stuff like this. And I thought I'll go to my own um leaving party basically there and prepared a speech. And I thought I would cry like crazy maybe. No. No, not a single tear because I think I was just, it was, it felt good, it was good timing. your child was already born sort of. Yeah, yeah, indeed. uh I'm really interested because you said that you worked in consumer insights and then of course project coordination and design management. Which maybe of these positions and sales of course helped you the most in the early days or all of them again, because you were a jack of all trades and you are still probably. Yeah, good question. I guess the scent design job because, I mean, at least for the ingredients part, knowing about like how to design a perfume, those things. The sales, of course, regret me also, but in different way because the thing is everybody is also saying, yeah, but you're from the industry, you know, already have all those collections. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, all those connections are worth nothing for me because I have connections then to the big private label houses and big supermarkets, you know, which is absolutely not where I want to be with my high-end perfume nowadays. So all my connections were not valuable at all. I needed to start from zero in terms of that. So I think... I learned a lot from all the different jobs, but nothing really prepared me for the entrepreneurial part. Well, yeah, I could imagine. And even the fact that you worked with trans for quite a while or how people perceive them, ah I also believe it doesn't really help you much because what you do is not trans. I mean, to me, well, of course it's trendy, but it's a niche trend right now for the people who wants to smell good but don't be a cloud. How could you maybe... Describe your customer right now. We because I know that it's always changing but for now Yeah, so what I noticed is I have a perfume oil that's different. People don't know that here so much. They know body oils. But otherwise perfume was mostly an acrylic spray. So that's something that I needed to make people, convince them that... This is also a way to put perfume. And then I have a perfume that is very long lasting because of the oil, but it doesn't have the cloud at the beginning, indeed. So you have a constant something perfume experience around you, but it's not this huge cloud at the beginning and then nothing left at the end. It's much more linear. Yeah, and my customers nowadays, so the price is very high. I use natural ferro-rohons in there, which I at the beginning just put because I really love them, the smell of it, crazy, crazy ingredients. But nowadays I also, with all the comments that I received, I noticed maybe there's some magic going on as well from the natural ferro-rohons, like really the attraction hormones. So all of this together, plus the fact that it's a skin scent enhancer, made me think, okay, the positioning has to be totally different as well. I don't want to be in Douglas and EC Paris and Sephora, a mass product, because people that were wearing my perfume in the trial period when I was still in corporate, they always got back to me with the feedback saying that I get a lot of compliments from other people. But I always say that it's not, you cannot buy it yet. It's my perfume. I don't want anybody else to smell like me. So they don't want to share basically. And that made me think, okay, in terms of positioning, I also need to be very niche, exclusive, you know, and not being available anywhere. And yeah, so coming back to your question, my customer is somebody who was taking a lot of care of themselves. It's uni 6, so men and women. So they value to have not the standard perfume but more like a unique experience. They value often craftsmanship, not the types that they really want to have the story as well. So I do personal delivery wherever possible. Sometimes I have customers in, I don't know. Canada, so that's not possible. Here I do personal deliveries, so I tell them about the story, about how I search it, what the perfumes are like, how to use it, how to make the biggest impact, and to give them a story, and they love that. They love that they have something to tell, and they get a lot of compliments from others, and then they can tell a story that they have a unique perfume, um and that smells very different on every skin because it's oil-based. So people often say to me, my customers say to me, I go to niche perfume stores, like for instance here in Amsterdam, you have the skin cosmetics, niche perfume store. But then they say, my friends already, we all smell the same basically. We all, they all go in my circle of friends, they all go to skin cosmetics. And I want to have something that is even more different and that nobody else can really buy. whilst click-shining. I'd like to just say that the pheromone topic is a very huge one and we definitely don't gonna dig into uh that right now too much. How do you define pheromone? it's a big topic indeed. Pheromones, we had you describe them basically as the attraction molecules, hormones in order to attract other animals. So I use, for instance, a pheromone from the beaver and the beavers, they use, they spray something on rocks, which is not pee. but it's really something that is only there to make it possible to attract other sexual partners basically. this is something, so it's a smell that attracts other, from the same species, partners in order to be able to survive basically. Did you discover these raw materials during your work at IFF or afterwards you've been searching for something like that? No, indeed. Yeah, it's a good question. At IFF, we don't use natural ones because they also exist because the smells are very intriguing and nice, but in big corporates, you would never use natural ones because natural ones, then the quality can always differ a bit being different from batch to batch and it's also too expensive. So what I did is I went to a... workshop or like training for one week in Italy with a natural perfumer who did one week course in Italy. That was my most expensive holidays but I thought it sounded great and I wanted to know more and he had a big love for natural pheromones and I got hooked as well. I smelled it and I was like wow. There's something going on, know, there's something mystical about it. And yeah, I also let my customers, I always do events for my customers as well, because I say I'm not selling a product, but an experience. So I practice what you preach kind of, I invite them for perfume shows, evenings where we smell the most intriguing ingredients that are in my formula as well. one of... oh two of those are then also the pheromones and when I let them smell those pure because they are quite intense and heavy and different, I get also their really interesting comments like of like instincts, know, what comes out, instinctive, emotional and something is happening with people. So that's something that is very grateful that I did this course because I figured out about this word of Nature Friolence. Yeah, you found something interesting for yourself. That's the whole topic. I'm really trying to be a little bit neutral because people have very different opinions and the traders industry, you say, for a month is going to be looking at us and saying absolutely different things. But I believe there are a lot of opinions out of the mainstream industry and And also because the industry is full also of, you know, you can buy those pheromone perfumes that don't have a smell to it. Yeah, but what if you look at those, of course they're not working, they are synthetic. And synthetic pheromones, they are. I'm very convinced also that cannot work. So I'm very, very conscious that the topic is hot, but I'm also, I'm not saying, indeed, would you say that I have a scientific I'm just saying I use natural ones where I know the quality is super well and I feel that the comments that I get from my customers and other people is not just like, you smell nice, but much more something like yesterday I had somebody sitting behind me in the line and she was like, Hurry up in the line, we were waiting in the line. Hurry up, otherwise I'm biting in you. You just melt in the ice. And I was like, okay. So this is something that made me think, yeah, maybe that's coming from the pheromones. At least it contributes somehow. That's my idea. And we also could just use a different word for those who don't like it. mean, if people consider pheromones only specifically to something, we could say like the attraction molecules. Indeed, what I always say because film-ons, not a lot of people know them, I always say I use the laws of attraction from the animal world. Now that leaves it a bit open. So maybe that's why it's wild perfumery. Yeah, that's wild perfumery indeed. It's not all beautiful and like other advertisements with Keira Knightley and stuff. No, no, no, it's the wild, natural, neither too wild perfumery indeed. Yeah. That's interesting. It seems like we are talking about niche inside the niche and maybe even further inside the niche. I love it. What probably professional piece of advice could you give to someone who wants to transition from, I don't know, whatever background to fragrance industry? I think my biggest advice is to find the right moment to leave. I feel so many people are getting burnouts nowadays and for me I felt like uh the corporate was great, was a really nice experience for me to learn a lot. But you have to also listen to yourself and notice when there's a point coming when you get frustrated. then I feel that people are still staying, but then in a frustrated way. And that ends then in bitterness and then it gets there's a spiral of negativity and then people are maybe not nice to them. And then you get a burnout and everything is feels terrible. You're yeah, I have so many people around me that went into this negative spiral. And I was like, oh, that's such a shame because I think if you would have left like when you were still enjoying. But when you felt like I want something else in my life and looking for, yeah, that would have been much nicer. And I feel also now I left in a good moment, not being frustrated, which gives me lot of more energy also because I'm, yeah, I feel the, I don't feel any regrets looking back, but also the industry is small. So whenever I have an issue. oh I now have my huge network also for my corporate, which I wouldn't have if I would have left in bad terms, you know. And now I still have my friends, they became friends with my older colleagues, you know, and it feels really nice and supportive. Yeah, so I think knowing when to leave is a huge part that gives you lot of energy and good vibes and... Yeah, that's my choice. I really love this piece of advice. think I've never heard it... uh like it's not something common to give it like that, but thank you. Well, I have a few brief questions to you. So the first one. Name a fragrance note that instantly transports you to your early career days. The lipstick, the lipstick accord. Yeah, it's a violet, violet note. I smelled it when I was in sales indeed, in my position, and I smelled it and I was like, wow, my mother smelled violet then apparently with her lipstick. And that's a note that I also took for my perfume, for my third perfume, the lipstick accord. What's one professional habit you think every cent designer should develop? The time management. Which ingredient do you think is a hidden gem in perfumery? The nature of the hormones. And I also, I'm very much into the woody, smoky, notes. So something I guess that's not really very popular out there and on the commercial market at least. Alright, what was the last fragrance ingredient you discovered? Ambrose night. synthetic amber, uh very powerful, a like amber extreme. Have you heard about amber extreme? Yes. Indeed. Gives a lot of power to the performance of the formula. What is one ingredient you always avoid? personally at least for my perfumes, which doesn't mean that I don't like it in general. But I am not into the white floral narcotic lilies and those. What's the most unexpected source of inspiration which you've probably discovered for you? My grandmother used to, uh she was a horse lady. She always had horses and the smell when she came back home from being with the horses was a big inspiration nowadays for me because the smell of horse, also even the pee and the poo, which normally of a dog is all. Anybody gets terrible, but of horses it's not. And combined the leather, saddle with the sweat and the hay. Yeah, it's to me it's wonderful. It almost smells like whiskey and tobacco and yeah, it's a magic. ah And the last one. If you could design a scent for any modern public figure, I've already seen one of the posts about it, but if you could design a scent, who will? Good question, wonderful question. A big shout out here. I just had a post indeed for 1st of April, April Fool, that I would like to design a perfume for Maxima, like a tailor-made perfume, because my perfumes are unique in a way. I have three perfumes and they smell very different on each skin because they are just enhancing basically your skin perfume. because it's oil, so it's very different. But for Maxima, I thought she needs her own tailor-made perfume, which is still kind of in line with my philosophy of perfumery. um But yeah, that would be great. I think we need to send this episode afterwards, or at least this part. have contacts, I wouldn't mind it. m Many thanks, Franziska. I really enjoyed talking to you. And if our listeners want to continue enjoying your work and your style of communication, what are the best ways to do it? I'm very, mostly active on LinkedIn. You can find me there under my name, Franziska Joostet. And then I'm also a bit active on Instagram and I have a website called www.luisajow.com. believe in all the links in the description box. Thanks again, Franziska. I really loved it. Thank you. bye. Thank you. This was it. you