№13 – How to Become an Oral Care Flavorist at Givaudan with Solène Cauvin Wirz

Ever curious about what an Oral Care Flavorist does? Do they only focus on flavors, or do scents play a part too? How do you even get into that field? Join us as Solène Cauvin Wirz from Givaudan breaks it all down and sheds light on her unique career.

In this episode, Solène also shares some solid career advice based on her own journey:

1) Cherish what you loved as a kid—it might just point you towards your dream job.
2) Don’t shy away from the tough routes; they’re often more rewarding.
3) Keep at it, even when the going gets tough. Your perseverance will pay off.
4) Make connections wherever you go—the right people can open the right doors.
5) Be bold about making big moves, even if it means packing up and starting fresh somewhere new.
6) Never stop learning. Never.

Follow and connect with Solène:

• Linkedin

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

0:00

I just wanted to be able to create this magic, you know? oh Hi and welcome to How I Became a Perfumer podcast. In each episode we're exploring the different roles in the flavor and fragrance industry as well as talk to founders of the independent projects. My name is Tanya Mironova. I'm a career coach dedicated to helping you sniff out the best opportunities and inspiring you to create your own projects. Please welcome our guest Solene Kovan-Wirtz, an oral care flavorist at Givadun, currently based in the UK. With her Franco-Swiss background, she holds master's degrees in chemistry and in fragrance, flavor and cosmetics. Her impressive career includes roles at Chanel in Paris, Robertet in Grasse and Eurofragrance in Barcelona. Beyond the Lab she also enjoys the rhythms of Bachata dancing. Solène, you're welcome. Hello, Tanya, and thank you very much for having me. I will start as always from where it all began. Do you have maybe any particular stories or any moments in your childhood when you discovered flavor and fragrance industry? Or you were like, I have no idea what's that, but I will just do my degree in chemistry and we'll see where it goes. No, so from a very young age I was very very interested in fragrances and smells and different tastes and I can for example remember that when my mom was traveling for a week and so she was leaving home she used to give my sister and I one of her scarf with her scent so that we could you know still smell her perfume while she was away. I think at that moment I didn't realize why it would be so comforting for me. But now looking backwards I can understand and I see the power of scents to our well-being, our moods, how we can transport us in different spaces or times. Also probably another memory that I have and that I'm still doing is when you know when I go to the supermarket and also as a child I would spend so much time in the washing powder and softener alley because I would just open every bottle and then smell them. Yeah and when I was also like when my mom told me that I could choose a shampoo bottle or body wash I would go there open all the... bottles and then smell them one by one and choose the perfect one, you know. So I just loved smelling, just really, really enjoyed it. And then, you know, looking at the package and if it says, oh, paradise or tropical island, I don't know, something like this, just smell it and then imagine myself on a tropical island or something. It's just very powerful, I guess. Very interesting preferences. And your mom seems to be really uh a magician. She knew something because it like now everyone proved that it works and how it works. like back at times. I don't know how, it was me as a child who was asking to have this, I don't remember how it started, but I remember having her scarf and sleeping with her scarf in order to feel her texture. oh Is there any particular perfume? mean like maybe you remember your mom's or it was mostly your mom's scent. She wears different perfumes but then tends to go to the same ones but not only one but one of them is Chanel No.5 which is I guess a classic one and so it was a mixture of perfume and also just her own smell. Yeah, it's also, I guess, very important because it's a perfume, but it's on her. Then how it all developed, like you were interested in smells, then you decided, all right, how could I go there? Or there was not too much thinking about it. So every year at the beginning of the school, we had to fill a little form for each teacher saying um what's our name, our age, family situation, and then also what we would like to become one day. And so every year, you like you kind of had that thought. And because I was so much interested in smells and scents, I don't know exactly how or when exactly I discovered the job as a perfumer but I, at a very very early stage, I think about 13 years old, I was already writing perfumer in that little form. It's your Swiss Franco heritage, believe. Because most of the people have no idea at the age of 13 that this profession exists. So you just were writing like perfume and do you remember the reaction or it was like a normal thing? I don't think we were many writing perfumers. Most popular job, but no, there was no particular reaction. But you started manifesting it to yourself, I believe. I mean, you started thinking about yourself as a perfumer and then projecting it further and then... Yes, I just wanted to be able to create this magic, you know, for me that is kind of magic. It's in a bottle. You've got this juice that just by smelling will transport you somewhere or make you feel, you know, good or happy. For me, it's it's magic in a bottle and I wanted to be able to create this. Yeah, yeah. And I believe like choosing schools according to that was your main like main theme for some time because you have two master degrees. Yes. Did you have to receive first degree in chemistry and then in fragrance, flavor and cosmetics or? From my understanding, uh chemistry was quite nice to have in that industry to understand better how ingredients work together. also like chemistry is also a bit of magic. It's like two ingredients reacting together, giving another ingredient. It's fantastic. And one of my favorite was organic chemistry. you know, like there was a reaction. So I thought I would study chemistry. I thought it would be also safe to have because perfumes seemed a bit of a not accessible or, you know, uh Not accessible if you don't know someone or your parents are not perfumers, though your mom seems to be a magician anyways. Yeah, so I didn't have anybody in my network or my family, friends who worked in that field. And it seemed not really, it seemed far away and very unsafe and a bit like when you, you're a child and you say, want to become a famous singer or a celebrity or something, you know, it's like, it feels a bit risky. So I thought I would do chemistry first and then after this master in chemistry I still wanted really to become a perfumer or work in this industry in creation and then I added another master in flavor, fragrance and cosmetics to have this speciality. How did you choose the second school? Because I believe it was the same university for both of us, the university called Dazur, which we are talking about, which is now called University of Dazur at that time, I guess. wasn't that easy. It was not straight. So basically, after my master in chemistry, I applied for Lysipka, which is the most famous school to become a perfumer. And at the same time, As you do, know, like after once you finished, you graduated, you apply to different stuff because you're not sure which one you will get, right? So I also applied for a PhD in more in flavors. and, then I, I got both. yeah, lucky. And then I did the first week. at Lysipka but you have to find a company to... ah Yeah, like it's called apprenticeship. Yeah, very interesting system for many people who are outside of France. I believe they have no idea what's that about. But maybe in a couple of words you could say about this company finding. Yes, so it's a very good system actually. And you actually study at the university and then you all at the same time you work in a company and there are different system depending of the university. Some do like two months at school, then two months at work, or some others do three days at the university and two days at the company. uh It's a different, it depends of the school and the system, but then basically you study and work at the same time. I also find it very cool if you could find a company as you said. And then it gives you also like the experience, work experience, and you apply what you learn at school. So it makes it very interesting. And also it gives you like a first entry in the actual working world and also a network. It's really good. unfortunately, I couldn't find a company to do this apprenticeship. And I was asking around me and some people, what would they do in my situation? And they, most of them were like, the PhD will bring you one step higher, right? Because I already had a master's and I couldn't really continue EZipcar without the company as well. It would have been more difficult. So I chose the PhD and left EZipcar. The PhD was also sponsored by a company from the flavor and fragrance industry. And unfortunately, after three months, there was no money anymore to sponsor me. I ended up with nothing. So there's no PhD and no easy. And I had to start again. So I went back working at Chanel where I did my final master thesis. Not a bad thing. No, not a bad thing. And I was very lucky to be able to go back there. I mean, I didn't stay too long without a job. So that was, that was good. I went back there, but I was working in the patent development department and technology watching, competitive intelligence, but not in the creation, not in the, and I would have loved to, of course, I would have loved to work at Chanel in the creation side. But I wasn't. So I was still looking how to get that creative part in my CV and also make more network. And yeah, so I then found out that there was another master degree called Master Focal at the university, the one you just mentioned before. And this one em was specialized in fragrance, flavors and cosmetics and was also uh working in a system with a company uh where you do some work, some days at work and some days at the university. And then that time I found the apprenticeship at Robertet in Grasse, so I could work there and at the same time study at the university and learn more about fragrance, flavors. about analysis, about creations, about learning the ingredients, also the quality stuff, regulation. So it was a good year to learn more about this world and to slowly start a network and having more contacts and having this experience and Well, the creation part in my... in your CV. You know, I'm very happy that we brought this all up and thank you for saying all that, all these details, because some people think that when I, like, I network here a little bit and I also say that, know, the fragrance industry is very competitive. Yes. And people are like, okay, so like other industries are also very competitive. And not too many people share all the details of how they got where they got, if they are still in the industry. uh And I'm very thankful you said all that. And the second thing which I want to point out right now and highlight it is that you said networking. You said networking in each of these uh scenarios and that you really prioritize it very high. You really need to... work hard to build a network. Yes. To know some people, to be able to give you this... Just being able to... You know that someone reads your CV, someone just gives you a chance. Just reading the CV is already quite a step. Alright, so you came through the most difficult part. You started creative experience. How did you find yourself? Maybe I'm just jumping ahead in Shanghai. There was a few steps in the middle. basically I worked, I did that year in the south of France, studying this other master degree and also working at Robertet, more in the analytical department. And then I moved to Spain to Barcelona where I started to work at Eurofragments as a perfumer analyst. what I really wanted, what I was really, really interested in was creation. I really wanted to move into creation. I was... I so like to look at you when you're saying what I really wanted. feel like, you know, it's something so, so genuine in you saying that. Yes, it's really what I love honestly and then I applied to different roles and one of them was the oral care flavorist trainee at Givaudan and I actually never thought about oral care flavorist. I knew the flavorist job existed of course on perfumers and I knew that it was different. categories em of products where, if it is in perfumery or flavors, but I never actually thought about Aurocare specifically. Me neither before I saw your profile. Yeah, you don't think about this usually. And then I thought, well, that's quite interesting because of course my first love was perfumes. But what I really like is the smell of clean, know, the hygienic aspect. uh Because you only mentioned laundry department at the supermarket. was thinking like, all right, I could imagine shower gels, but not going to the laundry department for me personally. prefer the laundry department. That's my favorite. So yeah, so I really liked the smell of cleanliness. then Orchard is also about clean sensation and hygienic and making people feel more comfortable and more confident when they smile, they speak. So I was really... interested into it and I was like, yeah, that's actually something that I could like really. And then I applied to this job and it was located in China, Shanghai. So when I got it, was like, yeah, let's go. Yeah. Wow. mean, impressive. oh Did you have enough time to prepare yourself for this trip or was it like you applied one month and a few months you received the decision and the next month you should go? Because I'm a mover, but I understand that moving to China from Europe is not the same as moving through Europe, which I did. Yes, yeah, it's quite a big step I had one weekend to make my decision about saying yes or no to the to Givaudan offer This weekend, I remember very well and I Yeah, it's a big decision and it's scary, of course, but at the same time it's exciting. Um, you know, it's an adventure. I I was in my 20s and I was like I mean, it's a good time, you know, to do those kind of experiences. And I said yes to the offer on the Monday. And then it took a bit of time to actually move there. I would say about maybe four months, five months, or maybe four, because of the visa, because it takes a bit of time to make the visa, the working visa to... to able to go to China. So then I had some time to prepare and also learn more about China and how my life would be there. But then, of course, once you're there, that's when it really starts. How did you feel yourself? Maybe you remember the first day at your new training. How many were you there? We were two. Wow. yes. One, one Chinese colleague and she's still now she's still based in China now. Um, and myself and we met before because we, we both started, uh, because of that visa, uh, well, it took a bit of time to make the visa. we started in November in Ashford in the UK for the the training actually and then we moved to China in January. We studied in January in China. But yeah, the first few weeks in China, you feel a bit lost. And like everything is completely different. And you can't read, know, like you exactly. Yeah, you look at the products and the ingredients list and you don't understand what you are actually eating. Yeah, uh and then also there's no Google. You know, you have to use a VPN to be able to access all those. You need to learn about how to juggle with this. Also, what's polite, what's not polite. There are a lot of cultural differences that you need to learn. Some things that you would think is rude is actually totally normal and fine. And some other things that I would do or say and wouldn't not be perceived, you know, like I would think it's normal, but actually it might be rude or oh something to someone else. So you need to learn about those cultural differences and accept those and just, you know, try to... to our best to integrate. uh Yeah, and for the program, did you have a lot of European colleagues who worked in China or mostly Chinese colleagues uh working at that office at that time? So mostly Chinese colleagues in the China office. However, our mentor, our training and development director is English and he's based in the UK, in Ashford. And he would come to train us maybe four, six weeks in a row and then go back to the UK and we would continue, you know, like... smelling, tasting, working on fake briefs and all that stuff. And then we would meet again and we would still be in touch, of course, all the time. And then during the summer, we usually came back to the UK, my Chinese colleague and me, and then we trained. it was a good split because then we could also meet the UK team. So we, you know, because in AuraCare our team is located in different places in the world and most of them are in China and in the UK. So we could then meet both sides and work with both sides and learn from each flavorist, from their experience and from their region, from their customers. it was, I think it was a good program. It was really good. Well. Late, yeah. But did you feel like you're an astronaut because you were so special to be chosen for this program? I was so happy when I got chosen. was so... Honestly, I don't even have the words to describe how happy I was. After all these battles to be able to access to creation, to a creative role, was really, really, yeah, very, very happy. I'm also happy looking at you. believe this is the moment where we need the video cast to... Yeah. But after the Chinese experience, you moved to the UK and continued working on oral care. uh Yeah, that's when I actually started to work because before it was a training program so we were not actually working on real briefs, we were more like working on exercises, so fake briefs just to put us in a situation, what would you do, how would you approach the brief, how would you answer it, just to prepare us for the real life. Well, now I'm wondering how the real life briefs for the oral care look like. Because for the perfumery sometimes you could find those on the internet. ah But for the oral care, maybe listeners think, what could be the briefs? What could be different? And maybe you could say how the process looks like for you. um So I think the process is quite similar to perfumery. So we receive briefs from a company. They would usually brief several um fragrance houses at the same time to put us in competition. And briefs can go from a very classic mint toothpaste that will provide a a clean sensation and freshness and cooling and you know a very very classic what no one yes well yeah that's two-space right but then we can also have sometimes very surprising briefs where they want very creative notes that could go from floral or fruity and also for adults I mean now it's more and more accepted to have a a fruity note for adults. especially, I think Gen Z are way more open to crazy flavors. And then we would work on brief like that. Then of course, each brief comes with its own norms, depending on the region it is for, or sometimes specific norms for specific customers. uh We have to take care of the local preferences. mean, if it's a brief for France, I wouldn't approach it the same way if it was a brief for China. Of course, we've got different local preferences, which are important. And then also sometimes we would just proactively look at the different trends at the moment. what's on the market and then go to a customer saying we've got this, would you be interested in having this? You know, like if we think that's a gap in the range or we just think it would be good addition. Well, I'm wondering when we talk about oral care and you've mentioned toothpaste These are also like have different formats. Yes. Now we also have tablets. Yes, it's more liquidy kind of stuff, but uh Other big differences for you as a flavorist to approach flavors there Yes, also like, so we've got toothpaste and also mouthwash. uh We've got alcoholic mouthwash, non-alcoholic mouthwash. And then toothpaste can be in different format as well, gel, paste. As you said, it can be solid or more like as a, as a classic in the tube. So different bases. em Well, we have to adapt the flavors for each base and the the way of creating a flavor for a mouthwash compared to a toothpaste will be different. And also then the best is when the customers send us their base, that's really good because then we can really adapt the flavor to the base because in the base you can add actives and these will probably bring a taste that is not something that is looked for, like it can be quite astringent, bitter or metallic, sour, depending on what sort of em actives they use. And we would usually have to cover this taste. So then you have to also design a flavor that will be able to cover this. Yeah, yeah, masking it. Do you have maybe any like golden standards products? Because in the fragrance industry, you mentioned today Chanel number five, people are still inspired by it. Are there any iconic products of this kind? I think Colgate is a standard worldwide. Colgate is very... The Anticavity classic one is a very standard... Not standard, but a very classic two-spaced. The triple action, Colgate triple action is very classic. you personally, what are your favorite types of maybe products or applications ah if there are any or you like all the same. I like working for limited edition. aah So you can be a bit more creative, a bit more uh outside of the box because usually the client will be open to a bit more of crazy idea or something a bit different from the usual because it's a limited edition. And yeah, I quite like working on those ones when you can be very creative. Yeah, but I hope and well, I really hope you have enough time for creation or it's a lot of also paperwork in that place. not so much paperwork, but it's just that we've got a lot of briefs and then you really need to be, well, everyone works on a timeline, right? And we all have our deadlines. So we have to be quick. And sometimes you cannot spend, you know, like as, do as many trials you would like just to try out. I increase a bit of this, and decrease a bit of this, and add this, and why not this, and then see, taste all of them and check which one would be the best. or you don't have time to play, let's say. But it's a limitation for the flavor and fragrance industry, guess, general for all the applications. But did you have any favorite, like very favorite taste? I'm saying taste, but flavor you developed. I created a tea uh flavor with more tropical fruit notes as well, with passion fruit and coconut. So it blends quite well, you know the green tea notes with some passion fruit and coconut. uh It becomes a little bit milky I guess. uh it's sweet at the same time, it's quite aromatic and you've got this fruity notes and the coconut is quite creamy. Yeah, it's nice. And it's also compliant to one of our latest technology moodsense. So it's compliant to moodsense relax. So it should like give you like a sense of relaxation, you know, when you brush your teeth with this one, with this flavor. Yeah, it's like, it's one of Sounds super cool. I'm so upset I don't see so many products of this type on the market, to be honest. And especially on a very green echo type of toothpaste, they are mostly classical. Like, okay, we have tea tree sometimes, but without any twists. Like it's just tea tree, or it's just aloe vera, or it's just mint. Yes, well usually there's herbal, there's usually eucalyptus. Eucalyptus aniseed is quite popular in Europe. That's quite classic variant to have. But for example teas are very popular em in China, in Asia. So uh you can have, you can find quite easily a jasmine tea flavor for example on the market in China. That's lovely. I would love to have this tropical aspect as well for you. But you know, I noticed when we are recording episodes with the guests that sometimes it's like coaching, are some overarching themes in the things they are saying and they quite often don't notice them, but tropical thing... You say it very often. Not too often to stop recording now, I'm kidding. But just really feels like you do have some connection to these kind of like tonic, maybe fruity materials because you really like them, it so. Well, my parents lived a few years in French Guernard, em which is in South America, and I went to visit them quite a few times and I really enjoyed it. And over there I taste a lot of different fruits that I've never actually tasted or not as fresh as I could have had them in Europe. yeah, maybe that experience just stayed in me and I just want everything tropical. I hope we discovered something. Salen, I have a question, like again, one more professional one. uh As of previously, we're not very professional now, but imagine you have like young scientists and they decided like after this episode or previously that they want to become flavorists, maybe particularly oral care flavorists. Are there any particular piece of advice you would give them? like to what to pay attention to while they study or it's still just guys network and study hard. ah What do you think? Yes, and try to get as many work experiences you can. uh Because even, mean, it is very hard to find a work experience, an internship for example, in a creation lab. I was never able to get one, but I applied many, many, many, many times. But even if it's not exactly where you want to be, go there, work there, because you will meet people who will be able to help you, guide you, and you can express your willingness to work in a creative role. For example, when I worked in Spain, I was more in the analysis department, but then I was I was really good. was given the opportunity to go after my work hours to the lab, smell ingredients. And so once I finished work, I was going to the lab and smell, just smell, smell, smell, everything you could, and just taking notes on. And I think that really helped me then when, when I did the interview for Givaudan, for the role at Givaudan, there was a smelling test and tasting test. And I think that part really helped me. The fact that I I spent so many hours after work. But I think that really helps. So I would say, you know, like try to believe in your dreams, know, believe in your... If you really want to work in that field, you will manage somehow. oh You will get there. It might take some years, but it is possible. But also like try to be open to... work in other departments because they will also bring you something. You're not losing time by doing this. It's building your experience and growing your network. I really, really feel what you're saying because today I had lunch with someone who wants to work in a specific department at a specific type of companies. And one of the things I was saying that, well, if it, and seems like it's already been a few years, the doors don't open to her in this direction. I would say that you should probably approach these companies, but from a different entrance, whatever, but... The thing is what you've said, like you take a job which you have at hand and you develop and you progress and maybe it will bring you there. Yes. Though as a starting job, I believe you wanted to have like, oh, perfume a trainee. Yes, 100 % that's only what I wanted. But then you discover other things on the way and yeah you can always build your own skills once you're in the Fragrance house or once you've done with your work. Hopefully people would be okay if you go... smell ingredients or know spend more times actually in the company to just grow your own skills. Yeah, I believe it's just respect for oh each other. But talking about dreams, you said about following dreams, is there any particular goal on your uh horizon right now? I don't know what that might be, but if it's something you want to share before the bleeds questions. Well, I'm always happy to learn more and learn about more regions, more customers, trying to also understand better local preferences in different parts of the world and create always more and more. Also create for new markets, new customers. having new challenges, new orca challenges, new briefs, maybe surprising slave directions. Yeah, I hope we will follow your surprising flavor directions because in my Danish experience there are not too many. Sometimes I wish for more. Yeah. Well, Salen, many thanks. I've also prepared a few bleach questions. Like breathe in, breathe out. the first one. Do you have a favorite scent that reminds you of home? Home, I would say any marine notes because I grew up near the ocean, so near the... Brest. anything like, yeah, marine, seaweed, all those salty notes, I would say they will remind me home. Where is your favorite place to relax after a busy day? I like going to the gym, lifting some weights. Also, I love dancing. really do. So going to dance bachata, that's really my escape. What's the most unexpected ingredient which you've personally used in a flavor? There are a lot of them that before joining Orchare I would not have expected to be in Orchare flavour. For example Cumminseed. Cuminseed. That's... you used cumin in a mouthwash or in normal care? Wow. Also like patchouli, sandalwood. For me that's very surprising. Now it feels more normal because I'm uh just in that world. But initially I was just like, really? Same reaction. Yeah, yeah. So there are a lot of notes that you would not expect in all care flavors. Cool, something new again. What's your favorite book? my favorite books because they're a series of eight books and it's called the seven sisters and I was just passionate like obsessed with those books I had to go through all of them I started during Covid and then I had to finish Covid already was gone, but the Soviet Union was still persisting. Yes, I had to read all of them. And the last one, I think, was only published last year. The last of those eight books. I it was last Google because I've never heard of those. But thank you for receiving. good. It's really, good. I highly recommend it. Alright, so what song always makes you want to dance when you hear it? despacito Well, beautiful. And well, the last question. What's maybe one flavor trend which you predict will take off next year? But now I understand that this question might be only for a specific region, I believe. Yes, so it's very difficult to say just for the world because we are at different speeds in the world and people like different... well, it's very linked to local taste and local trends because also it's linked to what are the local food and beverages trends. Sometimes it's also linked to that, you know, like for example, em all the... milk tea, bubble tea that was really trendy in Asia. they're very, very familiar with this kind of taste. But it takes a bit of time to come to Europe. And now you can see bubble teas everywhere here. So people will be more open to buy a non minty flavor or not just mint, maybe mint combined with something. And we'll have this still this sensation of cleanliness and know refreshing and coolness in the mouth even though it's not the classic mint. Cool. I am looking forward to this one. Well, thank you, Solian. It was my pleasure and very happy to have you. Thank you very much Tania. It was my pleasure too.