№14 – How to Found an Online Perfumery School with Isabelle Gellé

Join us as we delve into the nosy, artsy, and hippy world of Isabelle Gellé, from discovering her fragrant ancestry to founding the Perfumery Art School UK.

In today's episode, Isabelle will share:

• How discovering her legacy has influenced Isabelle's creative future.
• Why she sees nature as the ultimate teacher for crafting scents.
• Turning her calling into one of the major online educational projects: the Perfumery Art School UK

Explore more about Isabelle and her work:

• Perfume Art School UK: Visit here
• Connect with Isabelle on LinkedIn: View profile

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

0:00

Hi and welcome to How I Became a Perfumer podcast. In each episode, we explore the different roles in the flavor and fragrance industry, as well as talk to founders of independent projects. My name is Tanya Mironova. I'm a career coach dedicated to helping you sniff out the best opportunities and inspiring you to create your own projects. If you're interested in a free coaching session, check the description box for contact details and let's get started. uh My guest for today's episode is nosy, artsy, hippie, independent perfumer and educator Isabelle Jolet. Isabelle, welcome to the show. Thank you, Tania. Welcome. I'm happy to be here. Well, dear Isabelle, I would like to start with telling to our listeners that graduating from the Perfumery Art School UK, your school, is something what really changed game for me back in 2019. So was able to study while still working as a diplomat and that did help me to get moving from Sweden to France. And I was actually able to get my masters in management of the flavor and fragrance industry. So big thanks for that. And now I'd like to chat more about your journey. Okay, well, thank you anyway for, thank you for commanding my school. Really appreciated. oh a very shy person, I would say, and I do appreciate it, but you literally grew up with perfumery in your blood. And well, could we start from your family background a little bit? Yeah, I always say that perfumery is in my DNA. My ancestors were called Jeulets Frères, which means brothers, Jeulet brothers. And what happened is that uh they were originally soap makers. They were making soap. But they wanted to expand, so they decided to approach Jean-Louis Fargeot. Jean-Louis Fargeot was the perfumer to Queen Marie Antoinette and at the time he was a bit in trouble financially. So the Jeux des Frères approached Jean-Louis Fargeot and purchased all the formulations of Jean-Louis Fargeot who were mostly catered for the court, European courts including Marie Antoinette Court. That was in 1826. So they used all this formulation to serve the perfumery needs of all the European courts until uh the 1900s, where their factory, which they had actually placed outside of Paris, so they had a shop on Avenue de l'Opéra in Paris, but their factory was in Le Valois-Péret, which was slightly outside of Paris. And the reason why it was there is because they still were making all these toiletries and soaps. uh And they needed lard, or tallow from the beef because they used to use animal grease or fat at the time. So they set up their factory there, but it burned because, know, believe it or not, they were quite advanced because they were using steam. They were the first factory. to use steam, I mean, unfortunately, it burns. So what happened is that all the formulations and all the stock of before 1900 disappeared. So it's very difficult to find perfumes from Jeu les Frères of before 1900, okay? So they rebuilt and they decided to take a different path because of course, You know, had all these revolutions and all these things happening uh at the time in Europe. they thought, well, only catering for courts is not going to work. So they redefined themselves and they made a new collection which was very art deco, art deco oriented with names, you know, which sounded very art deco, very uh anifold, uh crazy year. style, ce que femme veut, what woman wants, she loves, this kind of And they were again quite ahead of their time because they started to use celebrities to promote their new collections and these celebrities were all the actresses of the theaters of Paris. Ok, Zabelle Otero, Miss Tanguette, know, all these very famous theatre actresses of the time. So that worked very well, but of course my ancestors died, I think it was 1905, the last one died, and it was taken over by the Sun in Lowe, and then of course war happened and so on and so on. After the First World War, they really had a hard time trying to get back and recover. of course, competition had arrived, know, Chanel and everything had arrived. know, competition from the tailors, from the designers, fashion designers. so they lasted, however, until 1936. But I mean, the company definitely closed in 1942. So they lasted... century. Now, they were using mostly naturals. mean, they never, that's also one of the reasons why they failed is because they didn't want to embrace the, you know, the new arrival of our materials and synthetic materials. So they basically lost it, you know, to the competition. So, I mean, I grew up hearing about all these stories, like, you know, it was always romantic, hearing about the ancestors, and we had only a little bit of artifacts and collection left from them, you know, a of soap, a bit of a toiletries. I have still one perfume called Jas Mendeurion, which dates from 1920. Never opened, okay, so... never opened. So one day I want to actually take it to probably the osmo tech in Paris and try to have it open and see how it looks like. But you know, it's in one of these Emery bottles, it's really nice. So uh now I always loved uh sans, obviously. It was in my DNA, as I say. So when I was a kid, I Although I knew the story, was mainly making candles, collecting uh tropical flowers because I grew up in New Caledonia, which is an island of Australia. And so I was collecting frangipani flowers and thai tea gardenia, coconut oil. I was doing all this and putting it in candles, basically. And that's basically how I started. And then my career, well, then I never thought that I would make a business out of my passion until very late, but I will tell you more about that later. Well, thanks, Isabelle. was really the introduction I didn't know about, though uh I thought that I know some stuff. And there were a few points which I find interesting, like in a chronological order, not in the degree of them being interesting, not in the degree of interest. So the first one, you mentioned that your uh ancestors were really sophisticated for that time. mean, the cutting edge technologies, et cetera. Wow. I mean, that's super cool and exciting. I really noticed also that you mentioned that your ancestors really needed beef uh lard in particular. Why I'm saying that sounds weird, okay, like you might think that uh I have something wrong with me, but I was at my times when I read for the first time that different types of fat were used for different... things to use for producing the sand eventually. And this was something interesting for me. So technically in some countries you just couldn't be doing that not only because things don't grow there, but because you don't have fat from a particular animal. Yeah, sounds weird. I also really loved how you joked about uh the fact that uh working only for a quart, even though it was a French uh royal family uh didn't always work out as some people might think. And also I the competition was kind of high, everyone was trying to get there. And also something new for me that again, um Gélie Frère didn't want to use aroma chemicals. We will return to that later, but now it's just the point I wanted to highlight to our listeners, which I found particularly interesting. And apart from your story, which is Fascinating! mean, like growing in New Caledonia and already making candles in your childhood. I wanted to ask your parents, they told you these stories, but they didn't somehow interfere with perfumery at that time. No, I never got a formal training in perfumery. uh I don't know, it was like, you know, follow your nose. Naturally, my nose was taking me towards science, so towards botanical uh science, towards nature, because believe it or not, this story I'm telling you... I only found out later. mean, yes, I knew that they were my ancestors, but I didn't know the whole story until one of our colleagues, a historian in France, made more research. And we found out that actually my ancestors, Jean-Baptiste and uh Nicolas, Jean-Baptiste Augustin and Nicolas, were actually born in the same town as Guerlain, Abbeville. Okay? So I... And their father was a tanner. He was tanning leather, okay? So... we know that, you know, at this time, people were trying to cover the smell, the stench, caused by leather tanning. So I assume that they knew Guerlain. I mean, I don't know really, but I assume they did. And then Guerlain moved to Paris and somehow, Je L'ai Frère also did. I assume that they were really competitors of Guerlain or Guerlain was competitive of them and they were trying to, you know, to match the level of Guerlain and we really come from the house of Paris which is totally different to the house of Grasse. You know, people might not know but they are two different houses, okay? Paris has always been more about elegance, luxury, innovation, would say, know, Whereas Grasse, they had all the flowers and the fields and so on, so they could capitalize on using directly the raw materials, okay? And in fact, a lot of people of the House of Paris used to eventually go to Grasse, okay? Because in Paris, obviously, you didn't have access to everything you needed, you know? No, no. And also I do appreciate that you mentioned the role of Joliet Frère again, because all the French historians who write on perfumery history, do mention Joliet Frère, and it's a really important milestone if somebody is interested to read it. a silver medal at the Paris Expo. Okay, 1900. Yeah. And now we are not going to talk about Paris Expo, but it was a really important milestone again in the French history of how it like and the French, I would say expansion through the world again. All right. But I am now going back to you and your story. At what moment did you find yourself thinking, all right, so actually I'm pretty good suited for starting my own journey in the perfumery world. Well, anyway, so as I explained, since I was a kid, was preparing science. So I would say that from the age of 10, I natural formulations, which I always kept. But basically, sometimes I was making them for myself or friends, just for pleasure. When I graduated from Toulouse University, uh I ended up working well after New Caledonia, my dad was an expat, a contract in West Africa. So we went to West Africa. uh So arrived when I arrived in West Africa, my God, the first thing that really come to you when you arrive in West Africa are scents, smells. It's so special. It has very, very special smell. you can't uh be called uh face to this uh diversity of people and smells. And I'm not talking about bad odors. It's really smells something very special. OK, and it's due to humidity, to... all the things they grow, mean all the botanic and uh nature, uh plus the spices, all plus resins, all this mix together and with the earth, which is usually red laterite, okay? I don't know, it's like blending in a perfume, okay? So I ended up working for a Japanese group, I mean, believe it or not. uh as assistant to the marketing director and my job was to help them throughout West Africa to source potential distributors but of course they were uh involved in things like stock cube, mean was oh food stuff, stock cube, green tea, tea and everything. related to gums, know, for syrup or whatever. So we had to go to, well, I covered 15 West African countries, but we were never going to the towns. We were always going in the bush. Okay. And there again, I mean, you don't need a train, formal training when you go to places like that, because your nose is teased constantly. You train your nose. Naturally, okay, going to all these places talking to all these people Discovering what they eat what they what they use, you know for toiletry or whatever. Okay so I would say that my training is that is actually practical training of having traveled to many places and being able to uh Immerse myself into smells of nature After, of course, I've grown up in New Caledonia where, again, uh it was smells of tropical islands. oh So all this was imprinted in my memory. But I carried on doing my formulation. So then I worked in different... I worked in luxury properties, sales in Spain, and so on. But so you see, it's always around elegance, luxury... I think all these goes together, know, art. And also talking to people and knowing what they like and what they don't like like try to work in the luxury Real estate or any anything related like you will you will be the best psychologist ever Exactly. So it's all about this. Yeah, it has to be a whole, know, it's holistic, holistic. So then I went to work, believe it or not, for, well, for a group working with the European Parliament and Commission in the EU for four years in Brussels. uh There I met my husband with England. well, I didn't know that you worked in the political body, like, come you're here? It was a lobby, know, in lobby. uh Okay, okay, like, no, it's not. So nothing to do with science, although I mean people were using perfume but... So my future husband, who is British, told me, if you want I can come to Belgium. And I said, no way, no no no, I'm leaving Belgium, don't want to stay there. I'm coming with you to the UK, right? I would have also chosen UK to Belgium but we will... We don't want to anyone but just... I didn't want to stay in Brussels, okay? So I said, no, no, come with you to the UK. uh But when I got to the UK, because he was in, although he's from London, he was in Yorkshire, uh I couldn't really find something exciting to do. And so I said, okay, let's drag out all these formulations that I've made over the last 20 years or 30 years and see uh whether I can actually put them together, open a website online, because I didn't want to open a shop. I opened a website online, put my formulations together, and started to sell my collection of natural perfumes online. That was in 2006, so not so long ago. uh But I didn't know where it was going, because honestly... natural perfumes, nobody really wanted to hear about that, nobody even knew what it was, you know, when you were talking about perfumes. So I was selling these perfumes, but also I was delivering bespoke services to professional people who wanted their own perfume. So I was making bespoke quite a lot, actually. And then I was asked by... will have... Kensington Palace to deliver a workshop at the Kensington Palace for the historic historic Palace Group organization. You know, charity, it's a charity. So I just seem to be the Georgians. Okay, so back to courts. Somehow, somehow it was like, oh, yeah, okay. So I delivered this weekend workshop basically to uh deliver, to talk about Georgian uh and how perfumes and scents were used at the time. So we did scrapbooks with lavender and you know, uh so it was really fascinating. And from there I got invited by London Transport Museum to also deliver workshops. So I started to deliver workshops, you know, uh and one day someone told me, well, you should do like, you a workshop for the public. So I rented a room at Imperial College and I did the weekend workshop, which was basically an introduction to natural perfumery. And all the participants who were there told me at the end, you know, I just love it, but I would like to carry on learning. I can't take off. I can't go to France for a year. I can't even afford, you know. paying the school in France. I'm not a chemist. Why don't you make an online course? So that was a challenge, okay? So for two years I wrote the online course. And I set up the perfumery art school UK in 2013, 2013 with the course I had written. I mean, of course it was a new... a completely new thing because it was online. How do you teach perfumery online? Yes, please let me interrupt you for a second, because it's a very important thing what you said about the way you approach education and the possibilities for people. I would say that you're a very innovative person, because what you've said, like doing workshops for public institutions back like almost 20 years ago or like 15 years ago, may be now sounds... Not too typical, but somewhere at LinkedIn you could find this information or somewhere in the media. But back then it was a really rare thing. And you already mentioned natural perfumery a few times. And maybe before we proceed to uh the advantages of online education, or probably disadvantages if you find any, I would like to ask you to comment on why did you choose natural perfumery and what does it mean? Okay. Well, first of all, my ancestors, I explained, uh using naturals. They were so innovative that they even went, they were the first to go to China to find special roses, uh know, special China roses, and came back to put them in their perfume, soaps, et cetera. I grew up in nature. I, of course, was using a lot of classic perfumes when I was younger. What I found is that pre-1980, you know, the perfumes were using quite a lot of naturals. I would say between 50 to 70 % natural. So there were these classic perfumes uh where they were using quite a lot of naturals. uh Then you went into a period where it was all 100 % synthetic. And I thought that uh there is no soul, in my view, when you use aroma chemicals, because naturally they speak to you. don't know if there is a depth. oh But also it's because I wanted to carry on in the wake of what my ancestors did. oh Basically, the idea was to build on my heritage, not, you know, by being innovative, but keeping uh to the ethics of using natural products or natural essential oils. So what I found is that uh we are quite lucky and unlucky at the same time, because you have a lot of choice in natural essential oils, in natural absolutes uh and resins, okay? But at the same time, have the regulations which have removed so many of them. We are lucky that we have innovation that allows us to now use natural isolates, which basically were made originally for food industry, food and aroma flavoring industry, until only a few years ago. perfumers realize that they could be used in perfumes. So now we can actually use, because you if you make only natural perfume with essential oil, yes, you can make beautiful perfumes, but everybody will tend to tell you it smells a bit like aroma therapy blends, okay? It tends to have not the, you know, not the quality, I would say, or the stance of a perfume. Although you can, I mean, I'm not saying you can't, you can make it last, but it's very complex process. It requires a lot of knowledge, a lot of time. So when you start uh being able to use essential oils, resins, and then a bit of natural isolates. So natural isolates are basically derived from fermentation or from fungi support. Okay. And I had the great opportunity when I was in grass last month to get the actual way they are made and it's guaranteed and 100 % natural because basically they are using the enzymes, okay, the enzyme of the plant, okay, and they dry it into powder, okay, and you end up with a natural isolate, so an example, gamma-decalectone derived from the pitch. uh the peach perma. So by adding those, actually suddenly could be more like closer to designer perfumes, okay, somehow. But you are still using natural product. So it still has this soul, you know, and this need. That's what I... I like how you said about soul and about talking to you because m if of course we're not gonna be here right now we're like really fighting against all that aroma chemicals or nature also all that it's just like a job for other people but when you have a point of view which speaks to you I think it's very important so you you make you make your decisions based on what you feel not only what you know And I really love it also in my work and just in general when people have this attitude. But working like in 2013, starting an online school and you've been preparing for two, had been preparing for two years before. Again, you're a visionary Isabella. I don't know how you found out that it's going to be a really new way for many people. Yeah. uh Well, it was missing. Basically, you didn't have lot of choices to study perfumery at the time. You either could go to a school or one of the institutes in France, most of them require uh chemistry. oh Now, my focus has always been on the art of perfumery, although knowing chemistry or having a uh basic knowledge of chemistry does help quite a lot, in fact, even in our niche natural perfume, okay? Not many people don't realize that, but you do need to know the aromatic compounds that are contained in your uh essential oils in order to be able to create better, to anticipate, okay? So, now, the idea was how I'm going to convey something as abstract. as odours and smells and making perfume to a course online where people can actually practice. So what I did is, I mean, first of all, I had to find a technology platform to host the course because... Oh, exactly. Yeah, it's today not a big thing, right? But then back then there, I guess, so there were no choice. Yeah, I'm told. to do my fourth platform now, know, in 12 years, in 11 years. Okay. So at the time, that was really a headache because I'm not a technician. Okay. So I had to find the best way to host the course so that it doesn't start being leaked on the internet, basically. And it had to be what they call SCOM compliant, you know, SCOM compliant, which is basically the system. technical system to be able to deliver online. But I mean, that's another topic anyway. So, and I thought, well, the only way for people to be able to actually get into practicing perfumes is they need to have a kit. Okay, so uh I approached my bank. I started from zero, by the way. Okay, so I approached my bank to get a loan because I needed to be able to Create the first starter kits. Yeah I could imagine like a common bank in the UK being approached by a well I could call you French but you're international, but a French lady who says I need money for perfumery kits to send them through different countries. uh All right, good luck! Well, I did actually, I had a business plan, obviously. uh And based on the business plan, they gave me the loan, start-up loan, which was of course half of what I needed, but it's okay. I said, I can do with that, okay. I approached my colleague in France, who I didn't know at the time, by the way, uh Thierry Bernat, uh with whom I... with whom I collaborated later for the brand Parfumé du Monde. But anyway, and he was very flexible and I said, look, you know, I need these kids back, I'll pay you all in advance, okay? So he took the risk, yeah? And I finally launched the course, but really uh my business plan had said, okay, it's going probably to last for like three years. before competition starts arriving. oh So my idea was to always innovate and try to be ahead, oh a step ahead. uh Well, it's been 11 years and I'm still quite there actually, so I'm quite happy. uh What happened is that as soon as I started to promote, so I created a website obviously for the Pursuit Murray Art School UK, uh as soon as I started, people from... various countries started to inquire and join. So in the first year I got 35 students. couldn't believe it. 35 students from all over the world. uh And uh they all had the kit, the starter kit with 40 aromatic oils, which are a blend of essential oils, absolute natural isolates and resinoate, pipettes, beaker, everything you need to start. uh And, well, I was obviously doing quite a lot of online live classes. uh At the beginning it was more on a one-to-one basis, but then with people, the number growing, I had to make it as a group. So that's it. uh A lot of people didn't believe that we could teach perfumery online. uh What I always say is that our mission is to create a network, worldwide network of independent artistic perfumers. We are not a school for you to go and join a group like Givaudal or Firmenish or IFF. If you want to join any of these groups, we are not the right school. We are a school for those people who... want to maybe at some point change their career, create their own collection, become independent perfumers that includes perfumes and functional perfume products, obviously, and who are artistic. So we have, obviously, we have a section on chemistry, but it's on our own, on olfactory level, where people have to learn to detect through their nose the various compounds that exist both in the essential world and as uh separate molecules, oh such as linear, the new genomes, you know, the standard. They need to learn to recognize that. So we give them methods to do so. And that's it. So to graduate, first of all, they need to pass each module assignment. and they need to send a small sample of the perfume project or mind map that they have worked on so that we can assess, okay? And if we find that it's commercially viable in the niche perfumery business, okay? The idea is you remain in the niche and artistic perfumery here, then they graduate, okay? In 2017, we got the... accreditation from the Continuous Professional Development UK, which is uh basically, uh you know, recognizing standards of quality in the content of what you deliver. mean, Oxford University is in it, Cambridge University, you have many massive companies. I, you know, the fact that we went through it means that the quality of our delivery is to the standards, okay? Totally, totally and I can confirm it from my side and I also am proud. RODUIT! I graduate, yeah, alumni who could say that I have this certification. But indeed, right now I know that there are different programs and of course we will leave the link to the website in the description box. But the diploma in the art of perfumery was a very extensive course and it took two years. I also know that you currently deliver master classes around the world, so not only in the UK, not only to the Royals, but, like, yeah, I'm kidding, but just, there are too many parallels, you know, when you sometimes see how it all worked out, some things in the past might so interestingly influence us today, and even though we didn't plan it, well, you believe it or not, but something in common can work out. So, all right, I'm not going deep into that, because otherwise listeners might think that... I have some specific ideas about how past influences today's and in coaching we try to think that it's only today which influences your future, not your past. Though when you said about delivering master classes in different spaces, I know that you have this year also a master class in Dubai. The Middle East is obviously uh the place for perfumery. They love perfume in this part of the world. Contrary to the belief, I think perfumery originally was Arabian, not French. Okay, I'm very nervous. Don't tell them. I'm very universal in my vision. I believe in universal perfumery. I believe that every country has a culture of perfumery. Now the French made it the cradle because of the fashion designers, because they actually use the alambic from the invented in Arabia. So they made it what it is today. But The roots is Arabia and Middle East. for years I've been trying to... I mean, first I was invited in Qatar in 2013 to do consulting for the Qatar Foundation to find out whether we could set up a formal academy in Qatar for women, to help women. Because you have a lot of Qatari women. who actually make perfumes at home, know, beautiful ones, by the way. So they wanted to support them. So we did a project. And it's still going on at the moment. But so what we found is that for the moment, there are no real academy to love perfumery in the Middle East. So my new partner and myself is from from the Middle East, okay. uh We decided to do inaugural courses or masterclass in Dubai uh this year to see how it's going to work with a view of establishing a branch of the school in this region, okay. So it's inaugural, which means it's a test uh and we'll see how it works and if it does, then the idea would be to have... Because again, in the Middle East you have a lot of uh self-taught perfumers, but also people who work independently. So not necessarily working for a company or whatever, they want to set up their own. And we have a very, very uh successful example in Dubai. with our student who has open woodology and he focuses on wood, everything about wood, but he creates perfume based on what he learned with us, okay? And he's very successful in Dubai, so we are very happy. Yeah, so we want, the idea is to educate, not only educate people who want to become perfumers, but also educate the consumer, oh okay? To make this differentiation. in the ocean of choice that you have in terms of perfumes everywhere. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally, totally. I believe that this creative experience is so important just by itself. And, well, the way you're gonna use it depends on you. Would you be just an educated, just like quote-unquote an educated consumer? Or you will probably open something new in you, in yourself? Or you will further decide to, well... to make a brand or maybe an educational institution because I also know that some of your students became your representatives in other regions. For the moment we have one in France and one in South Africa, okay? Because, of course, Africa for me is the future. Totally, Where perfume really I think is going to shift, okay? But it's because I spent so much of my life in Africa too. So it's a love, it's another love basically. You have passion for perfumes and aromas and a passion for Africa, okay? There are so many opportunities in this continent and they have been so not exploited. And you know, I can see because now we have more and more. African students, okay, and they are opening niche boutiques of for few I mean, it's really great and they want to create their own as well. So it's really great to see that, you know, I'm really so uh Yeah, South Africa is supposed to be for the moment the place for those people of Africa would like to attend workshops, so, know, like in mostly introduction workshops to start with But at least it gives them this opportunity to try. Yeah, that's great. Well, I would love to talk to you forever on all that. um But I couldn't not to note that your ancestors went to China to find roses. and you spend a lot of your life in Africa. I mean, okay, like there is definitely something in the genetic tests which could show that uh there should be a gene of innovators or visionaries, really. I just wanted to ask you maybe before we will proceed to our bleeds section. ah What are the next... uh courses you're gonna have, we've already mentioned the Dubai one and we're gonna have a link to that, but maybe the online courses, how people could approach the school and what are the best moments maybe to start, maybe you have like seasons when you start the course and then you don't start new cohorts, so how do you... Okay, so of course, you know, one of the things about perfumery is that you have no unemployment, you know, or little. If you are unemployed in the perfumer industry, it's because you really want it. So for us, the issue is to find tutors. so for this, it can't be like subscription-based, okay, whereas people are joined and they get, you know, so... because we still need to uh provide the support and the mentoring that people need to be able to move on with their learning. So what we have set up since the beginning is we have two intakes, two intakes a year, usually April and October, okay? Which means that people want to join the April uh intake or cohort. have to apply before April and those who want to join in October, they have to apply before October. It allows us also to have the kits prepared with fresh oils. We don't want the oils to stand on shelves for two years. We want to have a turnaround of aromatic oils which are fresh. Which means that when the learner receives their kit, at least... it's fresh and particularly when it comes to the citrus we need to have them fresh so that the first thing is that they need to complete the application form online we review because we ask the motivation uh we did reject some people we had to because they didn't give motivation that was know conducive to accept them uh And then we only take a maximum of 15, sometimes 17, but mostly it's 15 per intake. So that because we are few tutors, can manage all these people. And that's why we end up with people who are successful and we can establish themselves because we gave them the support. We gave the support. We give the support. I remember almost like 24-7 whatsapp people we had. Is it still the same? The WhatsApp group, it allows people to not feel alone. They feel like they part of a community and they can ask questions and sometimes you know some of the more advanced students will be able to answer before one of the tutors intervene. Okay so it's well organized but it's a lot of work. I mean that's why 11 years down the line online school of perfumeries are still rare. Okay Yes, I would agree totally. Though the ideas sounds like, oh well, for some people maybe it's easy peasy. No. It's not, but you know, we have now added master classes. So that are digital downloadable master classes. So one is about fragrance therapy, scent therapy or olfactory therapy, if you want to call it more scientific. So it's a master class with some videos, some exercise and support, okay, on a Facebook group. We have a Facebook group for that. And we are adding more like functional perfumery, uh organic chemistry for beginners. So all this is done by our uh assistants and colleagues who are chemists, obviously. But I told them from day one, you have got to make it for the layman. Because a lot of our students don't know chemistry. So we don't want something complex. We want to explain. you know, the various aspects of organic chemistry, the basic carbon, hydrogen, uh oxygen, and how it works in perfumery. So we are putting that together, but the problem is, uh okay, we are down to our fourth platform and tool, authoring tool, since 20th of July, because the problem is technology constantly evolved. So now we have AI. uh Now you have AI. Does it, is it, I'm often asked, is it going to affect what I do? And my answer is, yeah, no doubt, no doubt that it will. On the other hand, at some point in my past life, I was a translator from English to French. And I was specialized in IT and uh computing and technology. So. That was my specialty. And basically, you know, at some point, uh machine translation came. Yeah. And suddenly they didn't need supposedly translators anymore, human translators anymore. So we were ending up with proofreading. Proofreading what the machine had done. Yeah. And I can tell you it wasn't proofreading, it was redoing. most of the time because, you know, we had to redo it. So eventually many of the translation agencies realized that basically they were wasting more money because they wanted you to use machine translation, but then having it preferred and realizing that it was better to redo it from scratch. So I think that AI is going to go kind of this way. Somehow you still will need the humans. And when it comes to perfumery, even better, because yes, you can ask AI to create a formulation for you. Yeah, of course. That the GPT will happily tell you. When you have to put them together, you still need to have a knowledge of perfumery. could be a source of inspiration. I could say that I use AI a lot uh daily. You know, this idea of feeling the soul, what you've said somewhere in the beginning of our conversation regarding natural perfumery, to assess either something has it or not, it's really only something human could do right now. Someone with the knowledge, yes, I agree. But you know, at the same time, I also believe that AI, know, internet, I was at the beginning of the internet, you know. We, my generation, didn't have all this, and suddenly we had to embrace this novelty. In 1997, so I got internet, and at the time it was really slow, basic with the modem, you know, I mean. It's incredible how it evolved over 30 years. But anyway, what happened is that at the time, what I did like, there was a program called Netscape. And that was like a browser to look for information. And it was really great. Okay. But then it went bust because of Google and Microsoft. oh But you were using internet at the time. to find information, which was exactly the point of the internet. oh And to be honest, the way I see ChatGPT at the moment is that basically you're going back to uh using a tool that allows you to get information quickly without having all the advertising and the monetizing thing in between. Yeah, Exactly. So I think that in that sense, chat GPT is really good because when you need some information, you don't have to search all over the internet and see all these ads and, you know, these things pushing you or notifications or whatever. It comes in one go. And I even suspect, I'm not sure, that maybe the inventor of internet is behind open source AI, you know. But we'll see. We'll see where it all will lead us, probably to another uh podcast episode. Well, dear Isabel, I was very happy talking to you, and now we need to have some more questions. oh What's the most unusual perfume ingredient you teach your students about at your school? There are so many. I don't know. I have to say goodbye. You know, because we have 40 hours in the kit. So if I stick to the 40 hours that we have in the kit, the most unusual one would probably be Oak Mose. Okay, very boring. But if you talk about like general, for me, it will be probably one wood, a special wood. it depends if you talk about the skull. or on a wider scale. So I would say, almost if we take what we have in the kit, and if we go out of the kit, it would be the different woods. What is one perfume rule you encourage your students to break? Or perfume creation rule? Okay, uh do not think about the allergens when you create you can you can always sort that out later Yeah, yeah, and then we sort out the allergens Super good, love it. Because, well, it feels so relieving right now, I mean, when you create without restrictions. If you could create a perfume that smells like one place in France, you know, I put it France because I didn't expect you to have such a huge geography behind your back. So let's stick to France. Where would it be? What would it be? It would be uh the Pyrenees, the Pyrenees mountain. If your school had a signature scent, what would it smell like? It would smell very universal, it's difficult to say. It would smell like earth, rainforest, uh resins. Yeah. Earth's red forest ridgings. I don't know why, but that's what it would smell like. Yeah, that's why these are bleeds questions. What's the most unexpected source of fragrance inspiration you remember? Oh, my ancestors, had 120 perfumes. And we still haven't opened the one in the Osmos like because Whenever you decide to do that, just let me know because if we're to be opening it like you're gonna be opening it there Officially because they you will have then you will have to do that Then I would love to be there if you could hold a class anywhere in the world. Where will it be and why? Oman, Sultanate Oman. the reason is because for me, this is a cradle of perfumery. Well, it all starts with the caravans and everything. yeah. Cool, love it, love your motivation as well. And the last one. oh Which historical figure would you have loved to teach at your perfumery school? Uh... historical figure, oof. Historical figure, huh. Yeah, somebody who doesn't live right now. ah I think I would have loved to teach... ah! Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth. Hmm. think you were close. But depending on which Elizabeth, if you're talking about the first then you were not. oh The second one, okay. The one who drives. Two years ago. uh but it just never happened. But who knows what's gonna be next? Well, I really love talking to you, Isabel. I would love to have a second episode, maybe the second episode, somewhere in the future, but because we haven't discussed that much about some aspects of your work. anyways, nevertheless, I'm happy to have you. Thank you. much Tania for your time and uh yes, uh really great to talk to you and thank you also for approaching perfumery for everyone, know, basically make sure that everyone has a say. Thank you. Thanks.