№17 – How to Become a Perfumer with Ilias Kakis

It's time to look at the mindset of perfumers who choose to work independently. Ilias Kakis answers Tanya's questions, providing insights into his 'whys', way of working and more. In this episode, you can also find out why modern ambergris is contaminated with plastic (yes, you read that right).

Knowledge is freedom — choose for yourself how you want to look at it.

Explore more about Ilias and his work:

• Ilya’s Parfums Website: Visit Here
• Follow Ilya’s Parfums on Instagram: Follow Here
• Connect with Ilias on LinkedIn: View Profile

Watch the YouTube interview: Watch Here

Learn more about perfumery:

• 'An Introduction to Perfumery' by Tony Curtis and David G Williams: Learn Here

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

0:00

I always felt like constrained, confined almost to logic. So that's why it was one of the biggest reasons why I started Ilya. I delve into the world of perfumery was that I wanted to express myself. oh you and welcome to How I Became a Perfumer podcast. My name is Tanya Mironova. I'm a career coach dedicated to helping you sniff out the best opportunities and inspiring you to create your own projects. If you're enjoying the podcast and want to support it, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite listening platform. Thank you. My guest for the today's episode is based in the UK. Ilias Kakis is a scientist and creator perfumer of Ilya Perfumes. Ilias? You're welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, I'm also very happy. Well, you know, during our soundcheck and our guests, maybe future guests should know that we do soundcheck before recording. during the soundcheck, really discovered Ilya's personality even better than, of course, during our conversations, LinkedIn, etc. And I am so uh loving your spirit, your independent spirit. Thank you very much. Yes, work as an independent perfumer, so I create fragrances for celebrities, other brands, as well as my own brands. And it's been a fascinating journey diving deep into the world of fragrance. I mean, it's been a journey that's spanned more than 10 years for me, actually, around 12. I'm giving away my age now. uh But yeah, it's been certainly been fascinating and one of a kind for sure. How did you start? mean, where and well, maybe why? my goodness. Okay, so I got trained as a fully qualified research scientist. I feel like that was the foundation, but I will explain later on. So I studied human biology before progressing and doing a masters in microbiology and immunology. So from there on, I worked in toxicology and skin cancer. So I already had a predisposition. for the scientific part that's required in perfumery. I say required, but it's not really required. I think it really does help, but one doesn't need to have a massive background in chemistry or a degree in chemistry of some sort, you know, to become a perfumer, although it really, really does help. So I feel like that was like part of the predisposition. Of course, the other one was that I worked for... big, big, companies in those ten odd years. And I had various roles from training to sales to marketing to education. And I always had this like fond memories as a child from the Mediterranean paradise that I grew up in. And I always wanted to sort of like, you know, express myself. And I found out that expressing myself through fragrance was the best way for me. to express my inner thoughts, feelings, emotions and worlds really through the world of fragrance. back when I thought the world was ending, and let's be honest, the world did end for a few during COVID, I decided to take a leap of faith and launch my own company, even though I've been blending in the shadows at least six years in advance. So, and I feel like, you know, because I had this sort of background in chemistry, it really gave me a push uh and a leverage almost into understanding the world of perfumery. And also, but that didn't guarantee the, you know, understanding the art of perfumery, which is completely different to the scientific elements. But then I sort of, you know, through vigorous experimentation and lots of rinse and repeat trial and error. I just perfected my approach in creating bespoke fragrances and then I just merged those two worlds, the world of science and the world of art and I started my own company. The storytelling is very good. What I really wanted to appreciate the way that, in fact, in your head, it seems like these two worlds, they just really merge. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and I always feel like, you know, a perfumer is more like a fragrance chemist. So it's where like science and basically art meets. And you know, if you think about if you're looking at the horizon and you see a blue sky and a blue sea, where the blue sky meets the sea, that's perfumery for me. So sky is science and the sea is art. You're still returning to the Mediterranean paradise you mentioned. I was in fact curious, have you been born in the UK or not? Because your English is perfect. Thank you. was sure you have been living there all your life. Yeah, I grew up in the island of the sun, also known as Island of Rhodes. And I did go to an American school as well. And I think that's why, you I suppose my English is good. Yeah, so that is the island that's sort of like where I decided that my dreams were. bigger, I suppose, than the island itself and I ventured into the world to make one of my dreams, well, the biggest dreams at the time come true which was to become a scientist and then I realised that science was no longer a path for me because I felt trapped almost in a box of logic like Yes, as a researcher, have to have a degree of creativity. When you come around to do research, you know, have to think outside of the box, but it never sort of like fulfilled that need that I had to express my creativity. So I always felt like constrained, confined almost to logic. So that's why it was one of the one of the biggest reasons why I started Ilya and delve into the world of perfumery was that I wanted to express myself. uh Well, starting your own business. How was it for you? Like you went to, I don't know what department in the UK does all that, but you went to this department and said, I'm now opening my company. Yes. So there is a sort of legal body called the Companies House and actually it's fairly easy to start a business in the UK. Well, when I say business, I mean a limited company. So, but at the same time, it's this is like both like a good thing and a bad thing because when you become a limited company, you have some legal obligations and some of them come with, you know, big costs. So I didn't necessarily know it at the time, so it all sort of came as a surprise. But we learn as we go. three years on, are sort of like now a limited company. There's a few of us in the company with different roles, but it's only myself that can create and formulate fragrances. and finding your clients because I believe like some people who have training or do not have training they feel like oh the most difficult part is just to promote oneself. Like first clients, um how did you find them? Or you first started with creating your perfumes for your own brand and then these perfumes just really attracted you. The latter. customers were coming to me and they were thinking, we've got this fragrance brand, would you like to create for us? And then I realized that, you know, there was a demand. said, well, why don't just, you know, extend my horizons further and create for other people, brands, businesses. And I realized that this was a sort of an element, an area that I could also push myself. creatively because let me tell you it's very it's I think it's so challenging to create for another brand or another business because that business is entrusting you as a creator to create something so unique that will resonate with their audiences and guarantee their success So, you know, it's almost like they're putting their future into my hands or my nose, I suppose. So, you know, I feel it's really challenging. When I work for Ilya, when I create for Ilya, which is my own brand, I don't have deadlines. I don't have briefings. The briefings or the ideas come from my heart, from my mind. That's it. But then when I work for other, when I create for other brands and businesses, I request them to brief me, so they send me a briefing document about the idea, the inspiration, and then I conceptualize this into bespoke fragrances for them. And it's easier said than done, for sure. I think one of the reasons is because fragrance is personal and perfumery is subjective, so how I perceive a formula as a creator may vary from how, you know, 1,000 other people perceive it. But it's important to sort of like that there are some elements of similarity, you know when we smell like a hot spice like cinnamon for example The majority of us will probably think of like Christmas warmth and depending on how you Incorporate this into a fragrance it may sort of exude feelings of sensuality as well So it's it's never absolutely never clear-cut in perfumery Do feel like uh similarities between your work for clients in your own company and if you were working in a big corporate setting? I don't think there are a lot of similarities and I think a huge sort of drawback, I suppose, from my aspect. So as an independent perfumer, I choose which companies I collaborate with. uh I receive quite a lot of briefings on a monthly basis. Some of them I just can't take on, so we have to like put them in a queue. So it could be like for next year, for example, because we're quite busy with manufacturing as well. others I just have to turn down because well there are several reasons which I'm not going to go into but the main thing is that as an independent perfumer I have the option of choosing which company, which brand, which business, which celebrity I am partnering with and if I feel that my image and my reputation is not really aligned with that brand and you know their ethos. It could be a massive brand. I mean, I've turned down a couple of big brands because I thought what you are standing for and what you're sort of promoting is not really aligned with, you know, with who I am as a person, as a creator. So, and I know it sounds quite self-centered almost and selfish, but one has to be very careful when working as an independent because at the end of the day, it's your image and it's your reputation. Now, when you're working for a corporate conglomerates, these things don't matter because, you know, when you're working for a big uh chemical manufacturer, and I'm sure most of our audience will probably know a fair few of them, you don't get a choice. You just have to do it. You receive a briefing, you're allocated the briefing, you have to work for it. And also the way that the perfumers there work is completely, totally different. to the work that I do. you know, there are some sorts of important things to consider whether you want to go down the corporate pathway or the independent pathway. The latter, so the independent pathway, I absolutely guarantee you is 10 times more difficult. So, but then again, there are some important elements that I think really do make a difference, at least for myself. but yes, I wouldn't sell my independence for anything as of yet, but I do think working as an independent perfumer for me is the best way because I get to collaborate with the brands and the individuals that I want. And the majority, you know, in all of the cases, really, we're just like aligned in every like aspects of the creation. We both feel the energy, the energy's there. You know, I have the inspiration to create. They love the creations. So everything is there, you know, so it's almost like an energetic match. And yes, it does take a lot to have the courage and the strength to step up and say, yes, I work as an independent perfumer. I can create for your business. I can make your business successful. I can make you a millionaire, effectively. We don't get paid a lot. mean, it's the brands that make the most money and the businesses that I create for. But yeah, it's just basically make people rich. The last part sounds perfect. Thank you. But you look to me, you know, as a person who do love to be challenged. Yes, I mean, I do, to an extent, least in perfumery. So, you know, I love to, for my creative boundaries to be pushed. I mean, I had some, and I can, I can share with this with you actually. I had some briefings, for example, one of it was to create a scent, which was basically inspired by baby feet, human baby feet, know, that milky, powdery, subtly sweet smell. So, And it worked, it really worked. then when I came about, because I also offer advice on marketing, how to market the sense, because I've quite extensive experience while doing it for the massive brands and then for my own brand in the end, I said to them, okay, so how are we going to market this actually? And then they had a change of heart when I sort of like presented the odds on the table and I said, I don't think that's going to work really. let's sort of like go for something. think that people can actually resonate with more, you know, because yes, marketing is an important ingredient in the success of a fragrance. So it has to be considered. And nowadays the, because we live in a very visual society, you know, with Instagram and TikTok and all the dating apps, um, the outside of a fragrance, I like to call it the glass womb or the womb. the bottle. is just as important as the inside, which is a lesson, a bitter lesson, as you can imagine as a perfumer for me to appreciate because for me it's about the perfume and it should be about the perfume because at the end of the day, you you're buying a story and you're buying the perfume. But actually packaging at the bottle is just as important as perfume nowadays, shockingly. was just still thinking about the smell you've mentioned, because I sometimes go to clothes secondhand and there is lot of baby clothing there. And you could... Like there are two genders, as I'm getting in the way these clothes could smell. The first one is just the baby smell, which you mentioned. And another one is Alexolide, et cetera. So all the masks from the version... You know, sometimes I even experiment with trying to... find something which smells neutral. So for me it's the way to understand whether people even try to have neutral laundry detergent. Because I do use a neutral laundry detergent and I'm interested how many people do use it as well. So when it smells with kids, like with babies, it's just one thing, but when it smells with catexalide it's another and I'm trying to find something in the middle. But anyways, it doesn't matter really. What does matter is that I'm looking at you and I'm thinking How many times have you thought about the difference ah which you have as an independent perfumer comparing to those guys who chose corporate? Because for one, it's money. If you work for a corporate environment, it's a stable flow of money and for an independent, ah it can be different every time. And luckily you have a lot of clients. oh Have you thought what in the mindset is different? I'm pretty sure you did. So maybe some interesting conclusions. We are not trying to offend anyone, but what may be between a person who chooses this path at a particular point, of course, maybe it all will change, and who chooses your path. Yes, that's a very good question actually. I think it's coming back to that sort of statement that I made earlier where I just felt confined to logic, working as a scientist, I felt like I was in a box. So yes, you're absolutely right. If you're working for corporate, you've got a stable flow of money. Job security is actually, you know, there is job security effectively, but... Having said that, you know, there is no way that you work in a corporate sort of environment and you won't be placed in a box. You have to be prepared that when you decide to work for corporate, you have to sort of like allow a lot and I mean a lot of flexibility in your mindset. And, you know, I heard, I'm not going to mention any names, but I heard from perfumers who work in the corporate industry, they don't even get to touch raw materials anymore. They just sit in front of the computer all day long and they formulate. And I just think, you know, a perfumer is an artist and they need to have the organ. They need to be playing with the organ, the perfumer's organ. know, I go on holiday and all I think about is my perfumer's organ. And I'm thinking, oh no, you know, I could have created that or I could have sort of, you know, but working in the corporate industry, sort of like in the corporate field or version of perfumery. perfumers seem to have like less and less less contact with like the raw material. Now I may be wrong because that was just an example that I heard from a particular company and I was I was shocked. I think you're very right, because the apprentice perfumers do these chopper lab technicians mostly. even Roberts too. I just think and I thoroughly, I don't just think, I thoroughly believe it's absolutely crucial for the artist, for the perfumer, to be able to sort of like come into contact with the palette, with the raw materials. That's just like so important. Yeah, with your freedom comes your responsibility and you're ready to take it. Because you already mentioned courage, which you have, and yeah, this was the first thing which came to my mind when I was thinking about the difference of the way people approach their workplace. But another thing which you saying is that freedom is basically one of your values. absolutely. have to be, and I discovered this through working as an independent perfume, I think that is the only pathway for me. And don't get me wrong, I have been actually, well, twice, I've been almost pinched by the corporate sector. And I have to say, you know, the offers were quite lucrative, shall we say, but I value my freedom the most because I want to have a creative mind that's unbiased because when you're working for those conglomerates and again I'm not just you know I don't have anything I don't oppose the corporate sort of sector perfumery in any way I'm just trying to highlight the differences between working as an independent perfumer and a perfumer working for the corporate world so when you're working for the corporate world you have to abide by certain guidelines, which means that if the industry, if the business that you're working with, they will want you to use certain materials because they want to promote their materials and not the materials of their competitor. And that for me is extremely restrictive because if I feel and if I believe that one ingredient from this supplier, from this chemical manufacturer or whatever, will work wonders in the formula, I can use it. I don't have to answer to anyone. And then that makes the fragrance as best as it can be. But then when you're working for the corporate brand, they want you to use their ingredients in like the majority of the formula, they will want you to use their ingredients. And that to me is restrictive and doesn't really speak freedom at all. Totally. And you know, I'm to some extent very happy discovered this idea of the box and how it affects you early in your career. So some people don't even realize how important it is to discover your own values. And in this regard, I believe that what you also do, I'm going to mentoring part, is a very like important continuation of what the coaching does, which I do. So... Basically, the person should first discover who he or she is or what the values they have and then approach a career or a business they want to create. So I do know that you have students who you mentor. If you want to talk a little bit about it, uh I mean this is probably one of the most exciting aspects in perfumery because in my pathway I suppose, in my path of becoming an independent perfumer, I would say 85 % of the work has been self-directed. So it's self-directed learning, experimentation and that's something that was already really good at because I was working as a scientist and you know I was doing experiments on a daily basis and with Fragrance, think one of the most important things is having a good memory. That is what makes a good perfumer. Well, one of the ingredients actually that makes a good perfumer. It's not the only one. and I feel like working as an independent perfumer and having students is like, it's amazing because I get to pass on, you know, the knowledge, the passion, the energy. And, you know, some of my students have gone often started their own businesses, which is incredible to see. It's incredibly rewarding. And, you know, they've created fragrances that really have actually been successful and they can live off them. So I feel like that's one of the most rewarding things in my career. And I mean, I might have already got a predisposition because I was teaching at universities and I love teaching and training. But I just, I'm so excited to see them thriving in the sector. Some of my other students just do it for fun, just purely because they're interested in the world of perfumery. They want to learn how to create their own perfumes. They're not looking to sort of sell to anyone or start their own business. They're just interested in having a hobby. So, you know, and it's something that's actually quite rare because I feel like it's quite hard to come across an independent perfumer who is willing to teach you or has the time to teach you. mean, sadly, some of times my students have to wait two or three months before I can say, I've got some time, you know, we can do a masterclass. And, you know, because there's so much going on at the same time, but I thoroughly enjoy the lessons and I see people, you know, thriving from them. from lesson to lesson and learning new things and they're thinking, my god, I didn't know. And yes, I think that is because as well, the fragrance world is so secretive. That could be a good and a bad thing at the same time actually, but unless you know an insider to introduce you to some of those secrets, you will never know. Tell me what's good about this secrecy because well, I know about the bad parts of it. So it depends on the angle you're looking this from. So if we're looking at this subject from a point of why, you know, are we so secretive? I think one of the reasons why is because, you know, our formulas cannot be protected by law. And what I mean by that is I can create an amazing fragrance and then... It becomes viral, people love it, people go crazy for it. It becomes extremely successful and I have to say with a bitter heart, mean, again, depends how you look at this. One of my perfumes has actually been copied and it was brought to my attention and was like, wow, but you know what? I choose to take this as a compliment because it was a big brand. Yeah, exactly. I can't do anything to change it. I can't reverse time. can't sort of... I can't do anything, I can only allow it and at the end of the day it's all about how you react. So, okay, well my first reaction was not very good, shall we say, but then I thought about it and I said, well, if that massive brand is actually copying what I've created, then they are seeing something in it and, you know, I'm going to take this as a compliment and I kept saying this to myself on repeat every day just to keep the nerves down. uh But yeah, so it really depends on the angle you're looking at this subject from. So I feel like ah having that secrecy is good to some extent because if I go around and say, oh, this is my formula and share it with everyone, knowing that I can't have any real legal protection. copyrights. Well I'm just asking for it. But then again, mean what happens is that, know, like I said when that fragrance becomes successful and it takes off and it will still get copied and, you know, there is actually a scientific procedure, an experiment that certain people can do, fragrance chemists or, and it's called GCMS. And it's actually, I think it's two experiments combined into one. Well, good perfumers use it to study. And what I mean by this is when we are, for example, I want to create a rose accord. And I know nothing about perfumery. Let's say that, I don't know anything about that, but I just want to create a rose accord. The best teacher is nature. So I will go to nature. I will get either a rose absolutes. or a rose essential oil and we will run it through that experiment and what this experiment does is that it breaks down the oil to each one of its constituents so the many many many different aroma chemicals effectively so the many many different molecules and then I look at this and I see okay which of those molecules are at a highest concentration And then I see, okay, well, if I use these in a rose accord, you know, if I use those molecules and they are commercially available in similar concentrations, I should have a near rose scent. And that's how you create a rose accord. Bad guys will run perfumes through this experiment and they will just copy them. know, they might change a molecule and call it a new fragrance, but the fragrance is 99.9% the same. Now, there's no to say that everyone who runs perfume through that experiment is a bad guy because some people still run it to see, okay, so how did that perfumer achieve this? Can I learn from this? Can I be inspired from this? But then, you know, I feel like the beauty is at the eyes of the beholder. And, you know, uh sometimes you're thinking, okay, yeah, well, you weren't inspired, you're just trying to copy. And it's really, really evident. Yeah, it's a very good point. mentioned that I sometimes forget about it, but it's totally important. Probably I forget about it because I don't create perfumes. so that is a part where I feel like being secretive feels good. But where I think the industry could do better and is actually getting better as we speak is the transparency. The materials that use the perfumery, I mean, there is more more evidence that comes out that you mentioned Galaxolide earlier, so I'm going to tell you something very interesting about Galaxolide. I mean, you know, again, it's a beautiful musk. It's a wonderful ingredient. my opinion, it cannot be replaced by any other musk, full stop. And I had other master perfumers as well saying the same thing. Where the industry now is improving and really needs to be better at is the transparency. So what ingredients are being used? Are they sort of biodegradable or not? When I say ingredients, I mean aeromachemicals, synthetics. You know, people hear the S word and by S word I mean synthetics and they go crazy. They're thinking, oh my God, it's bad. Oh my God. I feel now things are getting better. But if you think about it, if you think about naturals for a second, so two reasons, two sorts of important points. The first one being that think about all the work that's gone into harvesting. the flowers, know, the pesticides probably that were used to grow the flowers or the trees, the machines that were used to harvest. mean, maybe not in the case of jasmine because the majority of jasmine is handpicked, but other sorts of materials, raw materials that we use, you know, all the tractors, so all the petrol that was burned, you know, to harvest those naturales. And this happens on a yearly basis. And then think about all the equipment that was used to extract the oils, the packaging, etc. And then compare that to synthesizing a molecule in the lab. know, synthesizing a molecule in the lab is actually more environmentally friendly or it can be more environmentally friendly than sort of harvesting the natural. So I feel like this is something that needs to become a lot more transparent. Synthetic ingredients are not bad. And in most cases, A, they're safer to use in perfumes and B, they are sort of much more, I would say environmentally friendly are produced in the majority of cases. Speaking about Glaxolite, and this was something that sort of completely, absolutely shocked me. And it was a puzzle. And like I said, I have nothing against this mask. I absolutely love it as I do with all of my masks. So, but. I have a friend in Switzerland who is a Swiss chemist and he recently bought some raw ambergris from southern France and he prepared his own tincture. mean, pretty much like myself, he's delved into the world of fragrance so he creates his own tinctures and fragrances. I think purely for fun though. And he prepared this ambergris. tincture and remember that experiment that I told you earlier, the GCMS? So he ran that tincture through that experiment. So of course it broke down the ambergris to its constituents, know, the molecules that make up the ambergris sense, which, you know, at 100 % concentration is not near pleasant. It smells of like death, fish scales and rot. and some aquatic notes. It's not particularly pleasant. The magic happens when the perfumer uses a particular concentration. So my friend discovered the presence of diethyl phthalate, which of course is phthalate ester and is very closely associated with plastic. And I was thinking, well, I asked him and I said, did you do the tincture in plastic tubes? And he had a go at me because, and quite frankly so, because he said, you know, Ilias, what are you talking about? I've been a chemist for 25 years. Of course. Yeah, we don't do that type of mistakes. like, oh no, I'm just checking because things happen, you know? And he said, no, I did it in class. And I was just, you know, kept thinking and thinking and thinking all over again. Why is diethylphthalate present in ambergris? Now, and this is where the biology part comes in, in handy, you know, as a biologist. So I was thinking, okay, where does the ambergris come from? So for our audience, ambergris is one of the most, if not the most, expensive raw material that we can use in perfumery. It is the whale regargetate and basically what I mean by that is that a particular species of whale, so through their diet they solely almost exclusively feed on squid but the bits you know of the squids during you know when they're eating gets stuck in their throat so the whale produces this sort of phlegm that lubricates the throat and helps the whale to get rid of all the sort of bony, they're not really bony bits because squids don't have bones, they have a pseudo-skeleton but yeah these sort of like things out of their throat and you know it helps them keep the throat clear of them. Of course the ambergris then floats up towards the surface of the sea and it needs to dry up before we can use it. We can't use the liquid flegment in perfumery. it can smell very disgusting. But as I said earlier, it's just, I think the beauty is in knowledge. It's in the secrecy of knowing how to use amber green perfumes. But if you think about this cycle, so we're not harming the whale in... any way possible, which is simply collecting its vomit almost. it's, well, vomit is not the right word, we're going to take so, and we use that in perfumes after preparing a tincture. So the presence of diethylphthalate, if you think about the cycle of ambergris, you know, the presence of diethylphthalate would suggest that the poor whale must have had so much plastic in its belly. It's crazy. If you think about it, it's shocking. It's absolutely disgusting, if you want my honest opinion, because we're we are harming the environment here. Like, you know, and it's clearly evident. And that was the explanation that we're both given because, you know, whales are really big, massive animals and, you they consume really large quantities of food and water and you know they can't distinguish between the plastic in our oceans and their food and of course when they eat the plastic they you know their system can't digest it it's impossible so it stays in their system and that is why my friend the swiss chemist when he did that analysis he found the presence of diethylphthalate in ambergris And I was just thinking this is just atrocious. uh Then of course this just basically, you know, gives birth to other important things to consider. Should we still keep using natural ambergris in perfumes knowing that it's not phthalate free? So there are people out there who have allergies to phthalates and phthalates are not good for you, you know, full stop. But should we still keep using natural ambergris in That's a massive question mark, I mean it was a massive eye-opener for me for sure. I just feel that it's very important to raise these topics, but I feel also very important that people like you, very knowledgeable, do that. as a creator you have the responsibility of knowing what goes in your creations, you know, you have to be aware but sometimes things like these just creep in the way and we're thinking oh my god what's happening? Another paper that I came across was published from the Chinese government stating that there are waterways were polluted by a particular musk and That really got my attention because, you if the waterways are polluted, the oceans will be polluted because that's where the water ends up in. and this particular musk belongs to a family of musks called the polycyclic musks. And they are entirely almost entirely, almost entirely not biodegradable. So they will linger in the environment for more than 100 years in most cases. So. If you imagine the accumulation of those masks over a century, that's going to be crazy. I think that's something where the industry needs to be lot more transparent and secrecy doesn't help for sure. And my last question before the bleeds section is uh about your own brand. em I just want to ask about your plans. I mean, any particular... Yes, so there is many exciting things for Ilya in the horizon. I should mention that a lot of people, you know, that they say, well, where did you get the name from? They sort of speculate that I named my brand and my company, you know, from my name almost, you know, that is that that would be the top presumption or assumption, I suppose. But this is not the case because I spell my first name very differently to how Ilié spelt. So, and when I was looking for a name for my own sort of brand and my company, I had to go through the deepest, most profound memories I have as an entity, as a person. And one of those was sort of my mum's words when I was embarking on that journey to become a scientist and you know, give up on my life in that uh Mediterranean paradise that, to be honest, felt like a prison at the time, so I have to say this. And, you know, that meant that I had to sort of sacrifice all that, you know, my family, my friends, my pets, my cats. So to pursue my dreams and make them a reality, and it was my mum's words that resonated deeply inside me. So... You know, she said that I know things are probably going to get hard because you know, you will be on your own, but just remember I love you always. And this is what ILYA stands for. ILYA. So that's the difference. And I'm not going to get too emotional today. Yeah, this is why it's so, so, so, so special to me because, you know, and this is exactly when I create a fragrance for ILYA. it will be inspired from something that's quite personal and the stories are there, the hints are there but it's always worth having a chat with a creator ah to just you know find that little extra because yeah people can see Ilias and Ilya but they not you know they may not necessarily know how the name came to be. Totally. And we will leave the link to your YouTube interview, the one I mentioned earlier in our demo, because I believe that people who want to be more inspired not by only your career and your thinking, but also by the description of the smells you've made, I believe that this interview is going to be very good for them. It's a great introduction into what you do for your Absolutely and you know it gives them a chance to sort of gain an understanding of the fragrance, the olfactive territories as well as the emotions and the memories that inspired me to create these particular fragrances and I've designed them in the best way possible to also induce similar emotions so for example with Heaven's Tides you know one of my key memories sort of that inspired this creation was basking under the Mediterranean sun on a luxury yacht in the middle of nowhere, so on the sea, you know and you expect this fragrance to be quite fresh, quite aquatic, you know, you will know when you smell it. Well, I'm intrigued. I feel like I need to go to get a sample set. Thank you. Ilyas, many thanks for the interview, for your knowledge. I feel like we covered so many different topics and I'm very thankful for your honesty about some of them. I have a few please questions for you. Number one, favorite city for fragrance inspiration. oh I can't say this because that's gonna be my next launch, but I'm gonna say my second favorite My second favorite, okay second favorite city would be the Paris Okay, good, fair enough. um Your secret ingredient for a signature scent? Passion? uh Super, I like it. A person you would love to create a perfume for? Favorite perfume memory from childhood? the scent of a, the heady scent of a jasmine bush against the sunset. Couldn't be better. uh Most challenging sent or accord to work. Greens, now as a creator I love creating everything but greens are the ones which I sort of like have my least appreciation but I still create them. Right. And maybe you could recommend us any best book in your opinion on the art of perfumery. Right, so it is this one. Haha, I know it. I know it. oh it's the introduction to Perfumery, the second edition by Tony Curtis and David G Williams. Yeah, super good. Well, thank you, Les. I enjoyed our talk so much. Perfect. my goodness, I loved the blitz questions, I wish you had more! I loved them! you