How I Became a Perfumer Podcast

№16 – Biggest Perfumery Wedding with Jenna Troyli, Perfumer&Flavorist+

• Tanya Mironova • Season 1 • Episode 16

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We asked Jenna about all the details of the biggest perfumery wedding (as she calls the World Perfumery Congress). From inclusion to why she wore black (yes, it's still a wedding). More details in the episode.

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Fun Mention:

  • “Clinically Depressed Bread in Space,” as mentioned by Jenna: Bernd das Brot

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/


you oh Hi and welcome to the How I Became a Perfumer podcast. In each episode we explore the different roles in the flavor and fragrance industry as well as talk to founders of independent projects. My name is Tanya Mironova. I'm a career coach dedicated to helping professional teams and independent specialists to distill their skills and sniff out best solutions to their challenges. If you're enjoying the podcast and want to support it, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite listening platform. Thank you. My guest for today's episode is Jenna Troly. Jenna is the managing editor of Perfumer and Flavris Plus. If you're wondering what does plus stand for, please return to the previous episode with Jenna. The link is in the description box. She also was the conference moderator for the World Perfumery Congress, which recently took place in Geneva, Switzerland. Jenna reports on the latest news, ingredients, regulatory updates and technologies in the flavor and fragrance industry. So, Jenna, welcome back! Thank you for having me, I'm so happy to be back. Well, likewise, we are so happy to have you back. Well, I've started last episode with you, and by the way, you are the first guest who I have for the second time. For me, it's an honor as well. I've started with comparing perfume and flavorists with Bok in the flavor and fragrance industry. And now I want to compare it and your work with Glue in the flavor and fragrance industry. glue. Okay? Just because when I was reading your editorial note for the July edition, you wrote there that professionals were able to escape the office to connect with fellow creatives. And it happened thanks to you. oh I really believe that there are not too many venues to make all the professionals meet. And the World Perfumery Congress is probably one of the few physical ones. So how did you feel during the congress? It's true. mean, I think that the World Perfumery Congress is kind of like a wedding. So it's an excuse for everyone to come together. And it's like, OK, we have to fly there. We have to celebrate them. We get to see these people who we haven't seen in years and years. So that's what I relate the World Perfumery Congress to, is a wedding. So uh it's so amazing to be able to see people from around the world who I've met. whether it was when I first started almost four years ago now, or just a couple months ago because they live in the US. But it's always so incredible just to hug someone and be like, oh, we're here together in Geneva. This is so great. And we get to be around these creatives who are just so inspiring and get to share all of their knowledge with us, but also get to be drinking with us too. So that's not so bad. Right? No, it's not. I mean, on the occasion and also like if you said it's a wedding, like where have you seen wedding without people drinking? my gosh, oh that would be criminal. But I really adore your comparison because when I was looking for the pictures, and I will deliberately leave a link to the directory with the pictures, people are so happy there. Yeah. It's really great too because you know, the expo hall this year felt like Alice in Wonderland because of the way that everything was decorated, which was really cool. Everybody could just be really imaginative. We had the most exhibitors ever this year, which was 120. So you really just got to explore, smell everything. Instead of things getting sent to you in a lab as a perfumer for you to smell, you get to sit down with other perfumers from other companies who are also your friends. and discuss how these ingredients, you would work with them. Would you put them in a home care ingredient? Would you make them in air care? Would it be fine fragrance? So it's really cool to be able to, one, reconnect, but two, really get to explore and kind of be like a kid in a candy store, if that's your profession. I saw you a kid on a scene many times, there are a few pictures and this one is a favorite of mine and if you see me when you are standing with your, like I'm showing to Jena, when Jena is standing with her hands to the sides and moderating another session, I suppose. oh open arms. usually, I've realized that because I make such faces while I talk to, usually my candids are not really great. ah But it's nice for the photographer to catch me like doing a grand gesture while I'm speaking. So that's fun. I like that. And so emotional, so well speaking about emotions I do want to ask you compare the emotional states of the participants or maybe the energy is better when the congress took place in Miami I guess it was Miami two years ago. And now here because these are the two congresses you've been moderating, actively participating, etc. So I will kindly ask you to do that for us. Sure. So definitely, it was completely different. had our second most attended WPC ever in Geneva, which was so incredible. Everyone was so excited to either just leave the lab for one day because they're in Europe or two days. And we've noticed that all of our European events do have more attendance. Obviously, Europe is home to, I would say, a majority of our perfumers or fragrance creators, which is really special. um But also in Miami, it was fresh after COVID, still kind of in COVID times. So it was tough. couldn't get a lot of um our Asian attendees to come because of their visa situation. So that was hard. And it was still kind of like, it's such an industry where everyone does a double kiss. So when it's COVID, you're like, Should I still double kiss? I don't know. So it was still very touch and go. But everyone was happy to be there. it definitely was. This year, just felt like there was nothing holding anyone back from celebrating and nothing holding anyone back from really wanting to be in those conference sessions, like shoulder to shoulder. Some conference sessions were completely full. So that was really amazing to see. Now that's perfect. Well, thank you for these comparisons, but I also wanted to know whether events like this drain energy from you or give you energy. That's a great question. um I feel like I just thrive and love being on stage. It brings me so much joy to get up there. It's definitely exhausting. Once everything was done, it felt like, oh like absolutely I need to start building back up from zero. But the energy that the crowd gave me every single day and the speakers who were just so passionate. and what they're doing was so fulfilling for me. And I got to sit down with people who have inspired so many perfumers, like Christophe Lottemille. People were just, they couldn't get enough. They were hoping he would be on stage for another 30 minutes. So it really does. I think that it gives me a lot of energy and it's really fulfilling for me. And if I could do it more often, I absolutely would. But I believe you are the right person just to be doing all of that, so that's why you're there. You're doing the exact same. You're doing your research. You're creating questions. You're sourcing your guests. There's so much that goes into everything. you as an interviewer, you're an incredible interviewer. It's a lot of effort that goes into that. And whether it's just through the mic or on stage, you have to have one, the energy, but also there's something to you that makes people want to talk. That's something that you have. just wanted to let you know, you're great. We've recently published your interview. So make sure that we can link that too in here, because everyone needs to read your interview on perfumery flavorist plus. Thank you, Jenna. What I wanted to ask you next is there are lot of categories of people who are visiting events like that. And there are two categories, which I am a little bit, you know, I feel like I want to support them more sometimes. These are students and independent perfumers. And in our first talk, we discussed how you support students and that you're really ready to recruit them as volunteers. So now I want to just to ask you How do you make everyone feel included in this event? Absolutely. So for students, they do get a discounted rate for WPC. We honestly know that students do not have the money to pay the full WPC registration. So um we do make that available. And then also we visited a SIPCA just a month prior to WPC and got to meet a lot of students and offered if you want to volunteer, you can come to WPC for free. We just need you to help maybe stuff some tote bags for attendees prior to, and then you can sit in on sessions, you can walk the conference hall. So that's kind of an opportunity for students to take advantage of WPC. All we just need is just a couple hours of their time as a volunteer. So that's definitely one major thing for uh students because obviously, and there's so many mentors that they can take away from WPC. I know that they've been, you know, seeing a lot of perfumers who are now kind of celebrities in this space that media is giving them the attention within brands, but they've known these perfumers far before that. So getting to meet them in person is a really great opportunity. And then for independent perfumers, uh previously in WPC 2022 in Miami, we worked with uh the independent perfumers who are based out of uh Los Angeles. So they have their own association. And I got to meet with some of those perfumers who ended up being able to make WPC because it was in Europe. So that was really cool. That's an international association. yeah, I really wanted to make sure that independent perfumers felt like you don't need to work at the top five F &F companies to feel like you're seen or that you get to be able to participate. get access to some of these materials that otherwise you can't afford or maybe you haven't been able to experience in person because you can't get a sample yet. So it's really great for that to be able to be an opportunity, even if it's just every two years. Sadly, ah I mean sadly for me as somebody who as we know haven't been to the... Likewise. But talking about the major companies who you mentioned, these are the companies who make trends. And you're the best person to ask about the trends which you might have encountered during the WPC. of course you knew about them, like you had known about them before, but which are the trends which probably... our listeners should be aware of and which caught your attention during the event especially. Right, absolutely. So one major trend, uh which was presented by Giveton, and also we had fashion snoops do a conference session on it, was just the way that Gen Z is interacting with fragrances right now and how they're responding. And Giveton did this, it's called What is Love exhibition in New York. And they kind of were just showing how Gen Z is, one, shopping for fragrances, but two, kind of, reimagining these ingredients that we may have been thinking, oh, my grandmother wears that, but now Gen Z is into it. And so that's been really interesting to see how Gen Z is shaking things up. And recently I had an interview with DSM Firm and ish master perfumer, um, Henri Blanc, and she was saying, Gen Z is helping us as perfumers become rule breakers of all of these things that typically we would do as far as adding two ingredients together, okay, this works with this and that's the only way it'll go together. No, Gen Z wants to flip that, start layering, start personalizing their fragrances, make something that's completely their own. So that's really cool. But I also think that we're seeing a massive wave of influence from the Middle East in layering culture. So that's really cool. The musks, the ouds. So that's really something to be on the lookout for. kind of just utilizing mists in a way to make those layers. So we've seen so many things, especially on TikTok, for dupes. I can't afford Baccarat Rouge, so I'm gonna get the dupe. Instead, Mark Natowski, who used to work with Victoria's Secret Beauty, took the stage and was saying, instead of making only eau de peau foam for your top consumers, start creating some mists of that brand or of that specific scent so younger em consumers can be able to access it. They'll wear more throughout the day. Sure, you're not going to get that initial sale, but you'll start growing your clientele and getting these people in to avoid those dupes. And so that's really cool to be able to see how mists are utilized in layering, but also how it just brings me right back to just being younger and just trying on so many different things at once, realizing that doesn't work. uh But it seems like Gen Z really knows what they're doing with that. So I think that that's really special. That's cool. When you mentioned Dubai and like, you mentioned the Middle East, but of course it was the last question, but as a Gen Z, I'm just flipping up the question. Flippin' it, I don't know what would be the preposition after flip, but I'm just doing something with the questions. So I'm them not in the right order. So when you mentioned Middle East and I, you know, I have done some research. trying to find out what's gonna be the next location for the WPC. And I was surprised that I didn't find the answer. I mean, is either me or you are still considering some secret options. You are a super sleuth, so it is not you. It is me. OK. We're in the middle of just kind of weighing our last final option, so we're hoping to have that announcement very soon. And I'll be sure to let you know as soon as possible. You'll be on one of the first on my list, I promise. Thank you. Again, I'm very happy that I'm doing this job. Right. So it's not just me. Everyone doesn't know that, but as soon as it's going to be available, I believe we're all going to be ah anticipating the event. There is one more thing I wanted to touch upon. Technically the WPC, again, is a very, it's an independent space so that everyone could come and share ideas. And you really... invited speakers from all the categories, all the companies, uh independent consultants, whoever. Do you feel like you succeeded in making everyone heard? I'm asking it because, you know, you said like, I'm doing interviews and I sometimes feel that I am lacking maybe someone or maybe I don't give enough space to someone or maybe the ideas are circulating all around and there are no new ideas coming. So when you were assessing probably the Congress, how did you feel about this? Like everyone being represented? It's so difficult. No, I absolutely agree. I think that that really first began em when I lived in Paris for um from the summer of 2022 until the summer of 2023 and realized how kind of US I was covering for a while as an international publication just because I had access the most to the US. So then once I was in Europe, I was covering more things in Europe. So it just really where I was based, unfortunately, even though we have the internet, we can email everyone. It's a proximity to people that can make people share more or you can cover more, go to certain events. So when we hosted in Miami, it was very much a North America conference. When we had it in Geneva, it was much more international, definitely, but I do, I would love to. have more um insights from what's going on in the Middle East, from what's going on in Asia. So I definitely do think that there's room to grow. And there are way more things that I could be covering and to be able to have access to those professionals who are willing to share those insights. But I agree. think that it would be silly for me to say, absolutely, I ticked every box. uh I'm actually, we just released our 2025 editorial calendar for Perfumer and Flavorous Plus. And in my editor's note, I'm going to say I want more international presence on these voices. Americans can quickly send emails and be like, I want to write about this, this, and this. And that's very much so their brand. But I really am looking for more international voices, more voices from Asian countries, Middle East, UK, everywhere. I would be thrilled to have that. I think that em that's something that I'm really thinking about now more than ever is diversifying, doing my best. Well, yeah, likewise. Just asking maybe for your piece of advice what you do, so for me as well to be able to... so that it didn't feel like we are only Europe-centered or the US-centered. Right, and you know, like, I'm really trying to, em when I go out to the events in Europe, give my card and then follow up on LinkedIn and try to make that connection. I also do understand that a lot of creators aren't as comfortable on the microphone or aren't as comfortable writing something. So maybe I can send you questions to fill out if that's easier. And you can do them on your own time and you send them back to me. But. So that's something that I'm really gonna be investing in for the rest of the year and well into 2025 and beyond. Perfect. Another thing I wanted to ask you about is um probably like, know, oh well closing the event. You stayed a little bit in Europe to do all the procedures, all the stuff. How in your head have you been assessing that? Was it like, like the first feeling maybe was like, it was a mess or it was perfect. It was a great wedding or like, how did you feel? I think that it was very much day to day. As soon as we got there, I got there uh almost a week early to set up because PalExpo is gigantic. They host car shows there. They host watch events there. It's just so huge. that was just kind of overwhelming in a sense to really begin packing all of these bags for, know, overs... 1600 attendees to prepare for that. So you're like, OK, here we go. But, you know, I think that, you know, day one we had our opening cocktail and it was sponsored by Mollhausen. I've never seen so many people come to our opening cocktail. It was so full. And so that was really great to have everyone in one spot together. And then it was like. Like a bullet train until the final day, so. I think that from the conference session side, because that's all I work on, em and my colleague does the expo hall, I was so thrilled to have everyone, everyone showed up. everyone, uh you know, a lot of people had samples and attendees love samples smelling new things. em One thing that kind of em was a little bit like just a surprise and unfortunate event. is that our final location had to be changed for our final party. So instead of it being at this really cool location, we ended up having to have it at Pal Expo. So that was a little disappointing, but. I believe people haven't noticed it really, because I received the email and I thought like, oh wow, how thoughtful, because the hotel which I booked was close to the exhibition, so I was thinking like, oh perfect. It means dear trip home, right? Right. But that's like, guess any wedding will have some hiccups. So that is the best way to put it. But other than that, I was just I was so happy that, you know, we ended up having incredible attendance. I got to have these speakers who were on my wish list forever. had inner perfumes um CEO Jean Madar, which was so cool to be on stage with him. So it was just it was really great. And um I was like, the one thing that I wish I could have done was announce the 2026 location. I feel like I'm letting everyone down. I think that maybe people are anticipating it, so like there is some extra interest in that. I wanted to ask you about your style, by the way. You've chosen black. Or according to the pictures you've chosen. Yeah, yeah. Well, so in Miami, I went very Miami. I did very bright colors. And then for this year, uh I knew that I would be on stage more because I did more kind of like moderation with some talks. So uh I kind of had to think of what would one, make a lot of sense for me to be running around in all day because we started conference sessions. at 9 a.m. and we finished at 5 o'clock. I wear, I don't know if you saw, but I wear heels every single event. I always wear heels and I wear them all day long. And um so that was my one thing. I can wear anything, but I will have some serious heels on. And that was my like staple piece. So I know now I'm trying to be like, what did I wear? wore, yeah, I wore a black jumpsuit and then I wore a black shirt with a blazer and then I wore black dress. So yeah, I was I was very black. I mean, I was thinking, was there any secret idea behind that? Because well, if a person chooses style for some reason or color for some reason, Because once I was living in Paris, started realizing I was buying more black shirts. So was thinking I was very Parisian, maybe. Probably. Another thing I wanted to ask about the Congress is, you know, quite often at events like that people like to, you know, make some award ceremonies or something like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but you haven't made any categories or any award ceremonies or did you make some? Or did you think about making some maybe? think that that is something that's come up within uh Allured, who is half of the World Perfumerry Congress. So the other half is the American Society of Perfumers. So usually the American Society of Perfumers will hold their award ceremony at WPC. So in 2022, it was on the final day, and everyone got to get together to announce these two awards. And one of them is a lifetime achievement award. So This year, instead of waiting until the final day at the American Society of Perfumers booth, they did host an award ceremony there, which is really cool because they poured champagne and they awarded this uh master perfumer. His name's John Pascal. And uh he just made this really incredible speech. after he's like, know, perfumers never die. They just evaporate. And I thought that that was so special. So that was very cool. Yes, indeed. But I was thinking that if in two years you decide to have any award ceremony of your own, I think people in this industry, just don't have too many opportunities to feel appreciated how to assess their value. And also, I've been thinking, just sharing my thoughts, that the flavor and fragrance industry is so special, not only because... Like people work with sensors and all that. Now the industries people do as well. But in many industries people answer them because of money quite often, which is not the case in the flavor and fragrance industry. Or I don't know, because it's like uh low competitiveness and it's easy to start working there and something. And again, it's not the case for the flavor and fragrance industry. So basically people are not coming for money because hard to earn that much. And people are not coming because it's easy, because it's really hard. And that's what your work is about. And my work is about just to share the information. And when I was thinking that the awards may be just for some people, a factor to motivate them, feel great about what they are doing, because of course they're happy doing what they're doing, but they maybe need some extra, like an extra something. yeah, just the human flavorist would be a lovely place to... share and the WPCs are lovely places to share some recognition maybe for the people working in the industry. I love that. No, I absolutely agree. And you know, these are people who, know, whether it's from childhood or, you know, something comes along, they're inspired to pursue this career and to be a super smeller. Like not everybody's gifted in that way. So I agree. No, absolutely. And it is something that I think is worth looking into. And when I do, I can say who was really rooting for it. So I appreciate that. I think that's a great idea. Cool. Alright, so we don't know when is gonna be the next location for the WPC, but there is one event which we know the next location for and you're again organizing it. So maybe you will share a few words about Flavicorn. Oh, sure. Yes. I was like, ooh, where is it? What am I doing? Yes, FlavorCon is for flavor chemists and flavor uh brands. So anything that has taste in it, whether it's your toothpaste or chips or soups or even pet foods. So really anything that has flavor in it is going to be for FlavorCon. And it's basically like your WPC. But for flavorists, so we have half of it's expo hall, half of it is conference sessions. It's going to be in Atlantic City, New Jersey. And October 7th, we're hosting a live organoleptic panel, which means that we'll have two sets of flavorists, flavor chemists, who will run through a set of raw materials with attendees. And they'll say, how would you use this in an ingredient? What kind of are you getting from this? And then on October 8th and 9th, will have those conference sessions in Expo Hall. So it's right around the corner. I cannot believe it. Well, I believe it's a very huge thing for everyone involved in the flavor industry and like to learn a lot. Learning about flavor, like what makes flavors so special and flavor is work so demanding. You will learn a lot as well, I believe. Absolutely, and one major thing for both conferences is this talk of artificial intelligence and how people are utilizing it in their day to day. And I know that a lot of things is, it take my job? But really everyone's using it as a tool, which I think is something that's obvious. That's the same with, you know, any like graphic design. didn't take away any money from painters. So I think that that's something just to... be thinking about and that was one of the major points at WPC too. So I'm excited to hear from a flavorous perspective. Exactly. I have no idea what they are utilizing it for. You will probably share this information in one of the editions afterwards, as you always do. All right. You know what's going to be next. You know the drill. m I'm such an indecisive person too, so this always gives me anxiety, but I'm ready. So, blitz questions! Well, the first one. The best dish you tried in Switzerland? the best dish. I mean, it's, I feel like I have to say fondue. Because come on, I got it literally for almost every meal. And I, by the end of it, I was teaching everyone else how to eat it because some people were just trying to stick their own forks in. So I was like, no, this is not fondue etiquette. I'm a professional now. You must know. I need you next time, okay. Because I don't know, really, uh I believe maybe had this experience once and I never had somebody teaching me. it's so fun. I first learned from some fragrance professionals when I went to Geneva for the IFRA Global Summit in December. So also it was like snowing and I was having fondue. It was such a great time. So now I just really feel like I could show, let me know. We'll have fondue together. Yeah, perfect. Agreed. The most weird thing you encountered while being there. You know, what's so funny is I, you know, after the day is done, I take off my heels. I'm hanging out in my hotel room and I turn on the TV and there's this like strange show. I think it's like a loaf of bread or a potato floating in space. Have you seen it? And he's in an astronaut suit. No. But I keep seeing him and I'm like, where is he from? I'm going to have to send it to you. It's just, it's so silly. I don't know. But that was hilarious to me. And I was like, that's what I needed at the end of the day. I don't know what show that is, but that's what was on. If you find it out before the episode is live, we will definitely leave the link to this wonderful show. don't know if it's uh a loaf of bread or a potato. I'll send you what it is. You if it's not even obvious, if it's a loaf of bread or a potato, things are really bad. All right. What's the most unusual scent you discovered at the WPC? that's a really good question. um there was a session with IFF, and um they've been working with a company to recreate scents from um paintings in museums. And they did it as an installation. But one of the paintings has this, it's kind of like um a canal. So it's. dinks and they said it, this is not going to be a good scent as soon as you smell it. There's a trash bin next to you. Be sure to pass your blotter as soon as you have done it. And people were, it was so close to their nose and it was such an intense, just like dirty. They even said that it had like sense of like manure in it. It was just so crazy. So that was, I mean, it's, I understand the thought behind creating that. But actually having that scent was so odd to be excited to smell, but it was a hit. Not to be worn. Not to be warned, but yeah, it's something we also need in the industry, the self-factory art, real art. It's great that you've had the chance to encounter it. And I think that it's fun because a lot of times it can feel um like very exclusive because sometimes you feel like you smell something and just as a layman you smell something you don't really know how to describe it and that can kind of make you feel insecure. It's the same as going to museum. Maybe you feel like you're not getting that painting or that piece. So getting to be able to merge those two together and say here this is a new way to experience it. And as you're as you're looking at it, like take a smell of what this canal is, or they've also done like, if it's gonna be something with like roses and they'll make something with roses. So I think that that's really a special project and something worth kind of looking into. I'm trying to think, I can't remember off the top of my head what that, um who IFF's working with, but it'll come to me shortly, I'm sure. Right, and also at IFF, like in the Netherlands, they do have lot of inspiration for this kind of work. All right, if WPC was just one cent, what would that be? I believe it's not this canal. uh I don't think anything should be that canal. let me see if if WPC could be a scent, what would it be? I think that it would be Oh, man, maybe like maybe like a blooming rose. It can start something that's like very raw and then turn into something very full. So I think that's something that You come in, you're not really sure what to expect. as that scent is drying, it's just becoming more full and more fulfilling to the nose. So maybe let's go with that. Yeah, that's a beautiful comparison. Because when you said about Rheorza, I thinking maybe it's because of the raw materials which are produced right now. I mean, the new materials you've written about, again in July edition. But I like this metaphor. On the spot, it's called, so IFF worked with Oda Ropa to create that, just so you know, that's something that's interesting and they are just creating new sense and how to really track scent heritage, if you will. world perfect. And we also had the guest for the Odeuropa project, Sofia Kallet-Eriko, as a project manager in one of the first episodes. So, you know, everything is interconnected. uh Likewise. And the most challenging question, are you ready? What manicure are you going to make for the flavor corn? Maybe you could tell to our listeners why I'm asking about it, because... uh Right, so I am I love getting my nails done. I usually have very long acrylic nails uh And that's what I'm kind of known for other than my heels went on stage or at events uh During flavor con I did have flowers on my nails No, so WBC I had flowers on my nails and it was funny because I ran into O chema one of O chema sales uh reps and she had the same design on her nails. And I was like, my gosh, twins. But for flavor con, I feel like maybe I should put out a poll and see what I should get on my nails because I don't know if it should be a, do you have something that you think I should get? well, except for ice cream. No. Those are so because there was one of the additions, I believe, in Perfumer Flavorist, and I do remember the ice cream on the coverage. But the poll idea is very cool because, you know, it's something special about you. We associate you with that. I mean, we, me, maybe some other listeners, readers. And though it doesn't sound like, we're not discussing rocket physics here, but on the other hand, like these small details, they make life cooler. so much fun. mean, you know, I could do a very like, because we're hosting it at a casino, I could do a very casino style nail with some like dice or like some things like that. That could be fun. ah So we'll see. Yeah, maybe I'll do a poll to I think that's a great idea. I think that's fun to be engaging. And then I'll also take some pics and I'll be sure to tag you in those. So now you're making my brain start to think what's next. And I'm thinking that I need to edit this episode as soon as possible so that you have enough time to run a poll and also to actually make your nails. Right. So thank you, Jen. I adore every time we meet. Thanks. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. And I look forward to working with you more in the future if you want to ever write more. I love your articles. I love your questions. If you have anyone who you want to recommend, you just let me know. Thank you. So much fun! uh

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