Overcomers Approach
“The Overcomers Approach” podcast showcases stories of resilience, where individuals transcend challenges to achieve personal and professional success. With a focus on spiritual, mental, emotional, physical, and financial growth, the podcast inspires listeners to embrace their potential and thrive in all areas of life. Join us to learn how overcoming adversity can lead to evolution, healing, and lasting success.
Overcomers Approach
Healing From Complex Trauma
What if high functioning is just a polished form of survival? I sit down with therapist and podcast host Malisa Hepner to trace a life from chaotic beginnings to grounded, embodied healing and the messy middle where most of us get stuck. Melissa opens up about growing up with addiction, foster care, and never feeling safe, then explains how those patterns shape perfectionism, overthinking, and the urge to push people away while craving connection.
We dig into practical ways to build safety from the inside out. Malisa breaks down why your brain’s job is survival, not happiness, and how to calm it with simple, repeatable steps: eat before the hard talk, notice the shoulder tension as a cue to pause, breathe into your chest until the noise softens. She shares the micro-moments that changed everything, catching the tiny pause before she tells the truth, choosing to speak anyway, and using the mantra I am safe, you are safe, we are safe to rewire old beliefs. We talk about sharing one real thing with one safe person, letting vulnerability be small and honest rather than performative.
We also reframe forgiveness. Not reunion. Not approval. Forgiveness as releasing the emotional charge that keeps you chained to the moment. That release often begins with self-forgiveness, meeting the younger you who still believes it was their fault and telling them the truth at last. From there, understanding emerges: people act from pain. Boundaries stay firm, contact can remain closed, but your nervous system is no longer held hostage.
To keep growth sustainable, Malisa leans on shame-free rest, the “hell yes or no” boundary rule, and a simple compass for bad days: if everyone seems to hate you, sleep; if you hate everyone, eat; if both, take space. It’s a compassionate, practical roadmap for moving from survival to a life that feels honest, connected, and calm in your own body.
More on Malisa Hepner LCSW, Author, Podcast Host & Speaker | Helping People Quiet the Noise, Reconnect with Themselves, and Embody the Light. Her contacts are: https://linktr.ee/Mdhepner and https://www.instagram.com/malisa.hepner/?hl=en
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Thank you for listening!
Good day, everyone. This is Nicole Ellis McGregor, the founder of the Overcomers Approach podcast, where I meet with different people from different walks of life, different experiences, different expertise, different journeys. But the overarching theme is that anyone, personally, professionally, spiritually, economically, there's not much that you cannot overcome. But sometimes we need a support system. We need a guide. We need a coach. We need a mentor. Whatever that might look like, that investment is into you. And so that we could pay it forward as we connect with other people along on this journey. I am so happy to have Melissa Hepner here, today's guest. She's a therapist, podcast coach, and podcast host and public speaker who helps people quiet the noise of trauma, reconnect with themselves, and embody the light. She is the host of Emotionally Unavailable and one of the hosts of Unquiet Soul, two shows that open space for deep, real, and transformative conversations. Melissa is also the creator of healing workbooks like Safe to Be Seen and The Beauty of Imperfection. Oh, I love that. Good is Enough, drawing on both her professional expertise and her lived experience as a survivor of complex PTSD. She's passionate about helping people move beyond overthinking perfectionism and fear of visibility to live more grounded, authentic, and joyful lives. I just love that. Melissa, tell me what inspired you to become a therapist and eventually a podcast host.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Um I think on some level, I always knew I wanted to be a therapist. I, you know, like the bio says, I had a lot of complex trauma. And so my childhood was one full of abuse. My parents were addicts, they were incarcerated, they we experienced foster care, kinship, and outside placement. There was a lot, like I say, I didn't have a day of peace from the day I was born until I turned 18, and that is not an exaggeration. Wow. So I always knew that I wanted to be a helper, but it really wasn't until after my own mental health crisis and kind of recovering from that that I felt like I wasn't just gonna be another voice in the void, kind of giving really bland terms or you know, because I feel like we throw a lot of like therapy speak out there, and you know, like it's it's one thing to be like boundaries are important, and it's another to unpack why you're having such a hard time holding a boundary, you know. And and so once I really understood how my wounding was created and became really intimate with that, and then learned how to fill myself up with the self-love and compassion and unconditional, unconditional positive regard. Yes, it makes working with others so easy because you can hear someone else's fear, their shame, their betrayal, their neglect, their rejection, and you can meet them on a human level. I've learned that we are not that different at all, and I really feel more of a oneness with humanity than ever. And so I'm kind of just trying to share my light with others because I believe in the profound effect of like one person pouring into themselves in order to ripple out into their house and then their local community, and that that's how we affect change.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. That's right. You know, I love the fact that you're so authentic, authentic and transparent about your lived experience and what brought you to being a therapist and a podcast host. Mine is similar, maybe yet different. You know, one of my parents was definitely an addict and struggled with that. I did a little bit of foster care, a whole lot of kinship with my grandparents. And um I I just am so grateful because those experiences could have really broken me. And I had friends that did not make it out that we had similar lived experiences. They're not here. And so I think that we exist in this space to show people to be that living example that whatever that is, we can overcome that. Um, and with all the vicarious losses, I do have impact with some kids uh who are in foster care. And as you know, they could be with families, multiple family members, foster group homes, and um what that can do to a soul, what that can do to a spirit, what that could do to someone's confidence and their and their worth. Very profound. And then having to be in a dot and exist in spaces where either you have so much shame or you have so much uh imposter syndrome and all that comes with it, or your own mental health crises, right to be a real barrier to functioning effectively in life. So I'm so happy that you took that that experience and and brought it forward. How did you really make it through all that? Like what was, and I'm sure it was a series of things, but how did you even make it to the to the other side? And the other side is like we're still still growing in the problem.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, and I want to touch on that too. But I think what I would have said at 18 when I left my grandma's house, yes, was God, because I was really religious. Yes. Now I would unpack that and I would say I'm not religious now, but I think A, my higher self at very key times was guiding me. But I also think so many of us, like, especially if you're the golden child of your system, and especially because you probably received similar education that I did as a foster child, you're presented with all these statistics and you're seeing the statistics lived out around you, right? Like my siblings are not me at all. And so, like, I'm seeing the other side right in front of me. And then I also had like from my family of origin, like ants, like just really toxic and saying really cruel stuff to me and about me from a young age. Yeah, so I really think I operated from a place of spite. Like, I like to say I made all the right decisions for all the wrong reasons. Right, right. I get it. Like I just I was determined at some young age, like, no, you will not win. Like, you're you're not gonna be right. I'm going to be right, and I'm going to decide what I do or whatever. But to your earlier point, the thing is, is like, and I just said this to someone else the other day. It just occurred to me the representation that that people like you and I had, which was either those of our people around us that didn't make it, or even they made it, but they're like my siblings, right? Maybe even one of yours. Um, or like the people on Oprah that were like, Yeah, I used to be a drug addict, but now I'm this. But it's like, okay, you're you're a public speaker, and that's great. But like, you don't seem like you're any healthier than I am right now. Like, yeah, you're we're not numbing, we're not escaping with drugs, whatever. But like, I know I wasn't healthy.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:And so, really, to the heart that I'm speaking of, yes, if you're a person who's just smack dabbing survival right now because you don't even know how you're gonna make ends meet, yeah. I'm talking to you too. But but I who I really want to hear me is the people who thought their childhood didn't impact them the way I did, the way I really thought, like, oh you know, I just don't think it really affected me because I wasn't living my pain out loud the way my brothers were. I had internalized every ounce of that, and yet, like, I'm freezing or fawning in conflict and in public, but then coming home and being a nightmare to my family because that's the only safe place I had to get any of that out. And it came as rage every minute of every day. I woke up in that place, I went to sleep in that place. Like that there is a reason that the whole idea of a wine mom ever started to begin with, and I'm not shaming a wine mom, but the whole idea of like, you know, every night this is my time and blah, blah, blah, is because we are these women who have said, it won't be me. I'm gonna win the statistics game and I'm gonna be better than my family or whatever. And yet you're just running that, you know, hamster wheel over and over and over because you don't know what to do either. And so that's really at 43 years old, I reached that pinnacle of a mental health crisis because I had not learned how to stop overthinking. I didn't have a single ounce of an idea how to feel anything. I didn't know how to experience a feeling. I literally had to walk through exercises to learn to get out of my head and into my heart, in my body at all. And that's what that type of childhood does is it separates us from ourselves, from our trueness. And so obviously, I want anyone who hears, like, it if I can do it, you can do it. Because I I I was I was the face of survival. I was the I was the golden child of my I was the one everyone, oh, you're so strong, she's resilient. Yeah, we want you to speak, yeah, we want you to blah blah blah. Tell us your story, you know, whatever. Right. And I was dying inside, yes, dying, and then almost died at 43 because of how miserable I was. I've just truly believed everyone around me was better off without me because I was not living an authentic life. I didn't know how to even be me, you know.
SPEAKER_00:That is real. That is that is so good, and that's something that I can identify with and my listeners. I think that I was a survivalist too. I was the rock, I was the person I never went to, but I had these other not healthy coping mechanisms. It was coming out in other areas, like so I couldn't stay consistent on things. I would just burn out and end up very ill. I had a I had a thyroid condition that they see in elderly people. There's like there's several I was like 31 at the time. It was like we only see this in elderly people. It was just I was like, Well, yeah, I was just burning my life up and in and have that self-awareness as well. Like you gotta have you gotta be self-aware and be honest with yourself about where where where am I unhealthy at? Where what am I doing, you know, and not like you said, being so out of touch, you don't even know what you're feeling.
SPEAKER_02:And so well, and I would say a willingness to be wrong about everything that you ever thought you knew to to be true about yourself, you know. Because I certainly thought I was aware, you know, like yeah, like I think these people who are so unaware of themselves drive me insane. I here I am walking around with a victim complex that you know is too big to carry, and you know, I think everyone else is wrong and I'm right, and don't see it, you know, lots of narcissistic traits that I was very unaware of. I mean, I was raised by somebody with lots of narcissistic traits, and you know, I was just an inner child who didn't feel safe in the world and who grew to protect myself between me and everyone else, and so whatever story my little brain needed to come up to make you wrong and me right, and me to push you away, that's what I did, right?
SPEAKER_00:You know, and I love the fact that you said that, like um, narcissistic tricks because when you're so focused on yourself, me, me, me, me, me, victim, victim, victim, victim, victim, and then you just kind of play that out and it just kind of manifest it, it just shows up in every space you're because that's your reality, because that's all your focus is.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, because let me tell you, if you are listening and this isn't triggering you a little bit, yes, I don't know, because I I think I was I was really unaware. I mean, in fact, I had someone like call me a narcissist. Yeah, I wasn't even offended because I was just like me, what right, girl? Right, like I mean, no, what am I diagnosed narcissist? No, but like I met a lot of the criteria.
SPEAKER_00:Let's not right, right. We it we can all have traits at some point, at some time of our life. Yeah, so I like the fact that you said that, you know, just being really transparent about it. Why do you think it's so important for people to talk about trauma, shame, and imperfection? Some people, it's that's a very uncomfortable space to be in. I I know even for myself, um just I think uh I'm I'm kind of willing to touch on trauma, but then I don't want to expose too much because it might be too much. I used to go to therapist and kind of hold back a little. I'm gonna be honest, because when I did the geniogram and it was just I was like, I don't want to give them too much. This is you know, just being honest. Like, I no, I hear you.
SPEAKER_02:I did I didn't even go to therapy for that reason. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I was like, uh, I don't know if I, you know, it's just something I wanted to keep secret. And then um I operated even within my family in circles of where uh there was the good side of the family and there were the bad side of the family. And I was in those two spaces at different times. And on on the bad side, it was like I was the good person. I was the person that you know was trying to break the chain of like, you know, this dysfunction. Like I have to this, I can't repeat, I don't want to repeat this. And then on the other side, it was people lived in glass houses and were lived in perfection. We there's and so I lived in those two worlds, and it almost makes you feel like you're just being double-minded and kind of it's like you're out of your sorts a little bit because you don't know where you belong.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and so yeah, and and what's beautiful about you putting a voice to that is I would say I came across this narrative very differently, but what I learned in this work is what I'm hearing from you right there is I'm too much and not enough all at the same time. And I feel like this is what we're all struggling with, but we're not seeing it, yeah. And and so, yeah, I think just coming to a place where you, you know, first I'll say this it's okay if you don't feel safe to share with everyone, right? Like I don't care now because I I this is I have always been this person now. I used to I used to talk about my trauma from a very disconnected place, so there are stories that I don't I don't necessarily get into all the time the way I used to because it's not funny to me anymore. I used all that as like a little stand-up comedian act where I was just so funny, so funny. And I mean it made people wildly uncomfortable to be like your mom didn't do that, right? But like that was the way I could talk about it, and that fooled me into thinking I was an open person. Oh, honey, I was anything other than open, nobody knew the real me. I was such a mask on top of a mask. So it is okay if if you only feel safe with a therapist or with your best friend or your spouse or whatever, but you do need to pick at least one person. And if if you're not feeling safe with anyone, couple things to consider there. Who are we surrounding ourselves with? And also, how what protective layer could you maybe drop just to start sharing small parts of yourself? For me, I didn't even realize in real life how hard it was for me to be vulnerable or or the types of things that made me feel really vulnerable until I had a show and I'd go to say something and I made a commitment. I'ma be me. Right. There's and this still happens on a daily basis where I go to say something and there's this small microsecond pause where in my chest I feel a sensation, it registers kind of as embarrassment, but I'm very aware, like ooh, and it and it gets caught in my throat for a second, and then I just move through it because I'm I'm living really loudly now from because I used to internalize everything and try to pretend like I was perfect, and I weaponized my communication because I wouldn't talk out loud about something because of my reactivity. I knew if I was to talk, uh you was gonna get cussed. But what I would do is go home and send a strongly worded text or email that could be written in a perfect fashion so that there was no blame on me for starting something or whatever. I just finished it, you know. Like, no, I do that perfectly, so you can't really complain about that. So that was part of my commitment in into vulnerability was I will not be afraid to speak in real time. Now I don't want to pretend like I'm perfect at that because I'm getting it right about six out of ten times, so that's better than one out of ten, but that's the journey. That's that's the journey is just to start practicing. So yeah, maybe you don't need to go tell your deepest, darkest secret to someone, right? But I I I would lovingly encourage you to ask yourself when was the first time I remember being made to feel like I can't take up space, right? Like nothing about me matters enough to give it a voice because that's that's really where the belief is. Yeah, and and then and then our our brain being the way it is starts to confirm that lie to you over and over by giving you lots of situations that confirm to you you have no one to tell this to, but you do, you do, you don't, we got to get better people.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. I love the fact that you said check your circle, see who you're around, you know, and then two, if you're not comfortable, have somebody therapist, your partner, your spouse, your best friend, mentor, whatever that is, at least have somebody to share to get that out. Um, and if you're you know still uncomfortable, just move forward to share something, one thing, just to start going to practicing those skills of being more open and vulnerable with it. Because I honestly feel like openness and vulnerability opens the door to more connections with people. Absolutely. Keep those shut and you don't have those connections that you we need, we need each other at the end of the day. I mean, at the end of the day, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's what community is is like you know, the fact that I can understand that you feel too much and not enough, and I know what that feels like, right? And you just never know. Like, part of part of my recent mission has really been share what I'm learning in real time. Like I'm still growing, I'm still evolving, and I want everyone to know like I'm still really bad at some things, like real bad at asking for help. I'm I'm about an eight out of 10 on on saying no to people, you know, like I give in to my kids too much, like there's all these things, right? But I'm just sharing in real time, like I had this epiphany. I, you know, this is you know, I saw this and I did this. And I would say too, if you're having a really hard time sharing something, what what are you ashamed of? So, yeah, you're trying to protect yourself, but you're also just compounding any subconscious shame that you're carrying. You have no idea if you're not a person accustomed to to getting the icky stuff out, right? The amount of freedom you feel just by sharing it with someone, like it's finally out, I don't have to hold it anymore. And like that saying, shame dies in safe spaces is so real. I can't tell you how many times, even silly little things of girlhood that things I wasn't sure was normal, and I didn't feel like I had anyone to talk to about it. And then my 20s, you know, us girlfriends, we'll just lay it all out, you know, like, yeah, but I got going on, and then you tell someone and they're like, That's normal, and you're like, Oh my god, I'm so glad I talked about this.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:And so you need people, we need people, we're designed to need people now. Do we have to learn how to love ourselves so much that we're not dependent upon the love of others to make us feel like we're worthy of love and belonging? Yes. Do we have independent so that we are not feeling like some other human in this world is the person to complete us? Yes. And we need community. We weren't we weren't meant to do this alone. So, how can you build that community if you're showing up as a version of you that's not real? And that's what you're doing when you're not sharing parts of yourself, and and then you'll know that you're not sharing near enough if if there's this voice in your head that says, Well, you wouldn't say that nice thing to me if you really knew who I was. Right. You wouldn't say that. Well, baby, let me know you then. Let me know you, you know. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. I and I appreciate that. I so appreciate that because that's been a loved experience for me. And so what I literally had to do was uh pick out at least two things I wanted to share in some type of meeting or some type of community circle. I was so paralyzed with fear that I couldn't talk at all. And some people were mis misreading that, like either as I was antisocial, I didn't want to connect or I was stuck up. I was in my head, overthinking, paralyzed to even speak. But like you said, with practice, and I'm still practicing in that space, with practice, it just gets more comfortable, you get you know better at it, and you and and what's the worst that can happen if you flub up or what it's just learning and growing and evolving. That's all. I and that's how I look at it.
SPEAKER_03:I agree, yes.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. What do you think? Um, when you said feeling safe and being seen and like in everyday life, what can people do? Because I think safety is a is a very important thing. It starts from childhood, and and when you don't feel safe in childhood, you can carry that right up into adulthood. And yes, and so how do people uh you know, and I know this could be like a book, but in a short-term answer or whatever, whatever you think, or whatever your experience is, when someone has never felt safe, and we can experience that, especially if we have a parent who was an addict, like safety was an issue for me. Um, and um, the unknown, you know, crisis, you know, living in survival, like, and so now you have to adopt, or now you have to move into these spaces, sometimes even in you know, leadership or whatever, whatever role you you're in in life, or whether that's with the spouse, um for not feeling safe most of your life, and then you move into these spaces, uh, it can come out very unhealthy because you're trying to build walls moving in these spaces. What are you people to do to just to feel like you said, loving ourselves is a big thing.
SPEAKER_02:But I also think part of loving ourselves is allowing ourselves to be vulnerable, to feel safe, and then yeah, yeah, I think safety begins with understanding that your brain's a liar instead of feeding your catastrophic thoughts to keep you alive because that's literally its only function, it's not here to teach you to feel better or to evolve better or any of that, it's literally here to keep you alive, and so for me, the reason I'm highlighting that is because I think so many times it felt so real. Me pushing someone away because in my mind they're not showing up for me the way I show up for them or whatever the story was. It felt real to me. It's only now, a few years later, when I'm looking back at so many experiences, that I can see what the truth was, where I was putting another layer between me and someone else. Yeah, um, so I think that's the first part. Ignore your brain, and and that could be a whole TED talk, but but also safety is created within. And so the thing that I've really, really worked on is just expanding that container. So it started with um, you know, learning to ground, being in your body and not in your head. It because if you're in your head, you're you're tense and you're agitated, and everything external of you is now a threat to your safety. That's so you're not you're not going to be able to feel safe in a body that is like hungry or tired. Just know you're gonna you're gonna be starting at a deficit at that point, no thing. But that is what it is. So even just being aware of that, you start to notice the jittery sensations in your body, and you go, Oh, maybe I need to eat some protein, maybe I need a nap, could use a shower, might need exercise. You know, this is how you become attuned to be able to create that physical environment of safety because I was a person who would I've never really liked breakfast, and like I wake up and I'm just not hungry for a couple of hours. Well, then if I get busy and I don't get the opportunity, I could go six hours from waking to eat it. Do you think I'm a pleasant person to be around if I do that? I'm not, I'm not, and I'm a person who can get activated really quickly, so I have to stay constantly in tune. Sometimes I don't even notice it until someone comes in and I'm like and I'm like, oh shoot, I'm so sorry. I need a snack, I'm so sorry, uh, or I need a nap. And so let's create that physical safety. You're creating the home for safety by starting to cue in. Like, do I need water? Do I need exercise? Do I need a minute? Do I need some music? Do I need a dance party? What do I need to create the physical safety? And then the other thing is that inner child work. The easiest layer of that is to constantly, I am regularly, daily, Melissa. You're safe. You are safe. Like, we're good. You know, all of our needs are met. Whatever, whatever it is part of the safety that's like railing, I'm like, hey, we're good. We're good. Don't you know? And you just learn to self-soothe that. But the words, I am safe, you are safe, we are safe, are very important. You cannot skip that step because that's the part where you're rewiring.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And then you can go a step further and go, you know, what age was I when this barrier arose, you know, when when did I become so afraid of sharing or whatever? And I'll just go visualize that and talk to that little version of me and hold her and tell her all the things that I know now that are true that I thought were you know opposite then at that age. So you can do that stuff in the car, you can do it in the shower. I mean, shoot, when I used to put makeup on or be in the shower, what I was doing was fighting with someone in my head nonstop, non-stop. Somebody I was mad at because I didn't, you know, hold a boundary and I grew resentful, and then I just hated them, or I needed to find an excuse to push them away because I needed to protect myself. None of that was I aware of it. I just thought I just thought people sucked, you know. But oops, but like now I spend that time being really intentional about the inner child work because that's the time I got to do it. But like I'm a person who's gonna be working on this every day for the rest of my life because again, I'm activated very, very quickly. The trauma I had was very real, it rewired me for life, but that doesn't mean I have to be a victim to it for life. Am I gonna have to use the tools that I have? Oh yeah, I am, but I have to use them a lot less often than I did even a year ago. Yeah, I've only been on this journey since like April of 24. So I'm not I'm not that far ahead of anyone else. And the change happens really fast when you decide like I'm gonna be committed to being curious, yeah, and and I'm gonna be okay learning that I was wrong about some things, and I I don't care who's right or wrong. I just I don't want to feel this way anymore. But yes, you are the container for the safety, so you got to start with meeting those physical needs and then just I'm safe, you're safe, we are safe. Give yourself a hug. We need it.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, I love it. I like that which you said, you said you ground yourself, and I and I love the fact that you said that. And then the fact that you said, you know, this is the container, I'm safe, you're safe, we're safe. And we have to repetitiously rewire our brains to not think the worst. And that's I love the fact that you gave practical ways in your car, driving, listen to the cues of your body. Am I hungry? Do I need an app? You know, those simple things can make a world of difference for people, and it's not that complex. I always tell people it's not as complex as you think it is. What's the need that needs to be met?
SPEAKER_02:You know, yes, yeah, well, it feels it feels so complex when you've been so disconnected from your body.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:You know, like, oh, and and I get it, but truly, if you when I I had to teach myself how to connect with my body, and it was I would clue in to the fact that I was overthinking by feeling uh an extreme amount of stress, tension, and pain in my neck, shoulders, and back. And then I would be like, Oh, I must be overthinking. What was I overthinking about? Okay, and then I'd have to be like out of my head into my heart, and I'd have to visualize myself going into my body, and then boom, I felt it for the first time ever. Once you learn how to drop in like that, everything changes, literally everything, because you can quiet all that noise that's happening. The noise that's happening, that's your single worst problem. You are your worst enemy. So, all those subconscious beliefs they start to get quieter. You eradicate them so quickly when you just learn how to connect with your body.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. You know, that is that is really good. And there's uh and I know we're wrapping down the last few minutes. Um, there's something the word forgiveness keeps coming to my mind because and when you experience trauma or complex trauma, there was a time, you know, where things were you weren't safe, and maybe you were victimized or violated or offended, whatever it was. Um, and someone may have done something, a small offense, a huge offense, whatever it is for you. Sometimes people cannot get over and they cannot forgive. Because I feel like this is a big part of it. What do you think? And I meet people like in and I think everybody's in their own journey. I just for myself, the minute I had to release it, because that situation, that person had me bound to the situation. I couldn't get out of it because I was in my head about it all the time. I did ultimately forgive. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be in your life, or you know, yeah, or you got to create some firm boundaries, whether that's with family, I have that as well, or or somebody maybe I knew from high school that we no longer were the same people that we were. So we we went on this journey and we exited on road seven, you know, whatever that is. Yes, yes. Um, what do you what what do you say about the forgiveness piece? Like, what what how do you think that falls in line with this?
SPEAKER_02:Well, here's the thing I remember feeling really triggered about the idea that you have to forgive and blah blah blah. So, what I told myself was resistance keeps us stuck, and so I'm not gonna resist the fact that I hate that person and I don't want to forgive them. And I said, I'm gonna hold that as long as it's serving me, right? But once I realized a couple of things, one is I cannot offer to anyone what I am unable to offer to myself. I guarantee you, if you're still struggling to quote unquote forgive, which is truly just a matter of releasing the energy around the event, that's right, not not a be in my life, I think you're a good person, any of that. It is truly releasing the all of those emotions and the energy around what happened.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:When you are able to forgive yourself for that, whatever it was, and I understand I'm saying it slowly because I'm gonna let you be triggered by that, and then I'm gonna ask you to come back for just a second. Right. I I promise you there is somebody inside of you, a version of you that feels like that was their fault. That event was their fault, and I'm here to tell you we can know that logically at this age, but there's a baby somewhere inside of you, whatever age that needs to be told it wasn't their fault, and everything you know to be true right now, right? When you do that, you you've done 50% of the work right there. When you are truly able to hold that person and say, We didn't deserve that, and fully with your entire chest, mean it, understand like you didn't deserve that, you didn't deserve any of it. You are able to fill yourself with the kind of compassion needed to understand why people do what they do. That's so if you can get when the way I look at forgiveness is getting to a place where you have so much compassion for yourself and you're so intimately aware of why you've done the things you've done that you understand how a person can commit that offense.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:How if you understand it, there's not a way not to release it. Not to say you're never gonna be around my baby. I mean, you know, like that's fine. That's not what forgiveness is. It truly is again releasing the energy and the emotion, which is just energy and motion from the experience, it doesn't have a hold on you anymore. You can look at it and go, Yeah, that happened and it sucked. You can talk about it, you can whatever, but it's not holding a chain to you anymore. That's my experience with forgiveness. The more I understand why I've done the things I've done, and I have not done the things that are labeled big, bad, and ugly, but I've done enough really messed up stuff in my life, yes, and have hurt people really badly to protect myself, to understand the motivators for for why a lot of these things happen. So, yeah, I can look at them and I can go, yeah, they they really just took a real wrong direction there. Like that, their experience broke them. And it's hard for me to understand that because I didn't let it break me in the same way. But you know what? It did break me in this way, and so I can understand just like we came across the narratives, I'm too much and not enough, all at the same time in a different way. Yeah, when you know yourself really well, you know why people do what they do, and it becomes almost impossible to not release the expectations around all of that. Uh, there are people I will still never talk to again because it doesn't serve any good for either of us, yeah. But I know why they did what they did, and I also know I didn't deserve it. That's right, you know, so that I I don't think that you have to quote unquote have to forgive to make a lot of progress, but I think if you ever want to reach the level of joy we're trying to sell you, yes, at some point you'll come across this bridge again, and that's the way I want you to look at it is about having compassion and forgiveness for yourself, and then just see does that release the burden a little bit for you to make a decision to forgive. And and I think forgive may just be a word that we have to rebrand or or substitute or something, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Love that the rebrand of forgiveness. I'm gonna put a continuation mark on that one. I love that. Yes. Well, Melissa, you have been these nuggets of information that you've given has really, really, really just impacted me. And I know it has my listeners as well. Um, I'm gonna ask one last question, then I'll give you an opportunity to give your podcast information, web links if anyone wants to connect on your podcast, listen to the podcast, find out what more you do on your website. I want to give you that opportunity. But out of all this, as you evolve, as you grow and you come into more self-ywellness, connected groundedness, um, really taking care of yourself, listening to your body, and as you pour into other people, I you you know, we have to keep our cups balanced or full or sustainable. How do you do that as you care and and and connect with other people so that you continue to evolve and and and to be as healthy as you can be and to do the work? What do you do for self-care?
SPEAKER_02:You know, I think most of the efforts that I've put into self-care is doing that shame work.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, if I if I'm not shaming myself for a rest day, it's not it's not hard to take a rest day. You know, um, and so I I think that I think boundaries, you know, saying no to things that don't energetically just light me up, uh, I think that's been a real part of my journey is like if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. And so that that's kind of the path I take is to do the things that really light me up. Truly doing this is such an energetic high for me. Um, but what we have to remember is like what goes up must come down. And so if I get to a place where I'm in like a chemical low, is what I call it, which may register as boredom, depression, loneliness, but it's just like my chemicals kind of coming back to baseline. Yes, I just know I gotta eat something nutritious, I'm gonna need a nap, I'm gonna need a lot of space. Um, and I don't always get it right, you know. Sometimes I get sick from too many things in a row and I didn't take enough rest time, or sometimes I just get real gripey, you know. But but yeah, I think I'm I'm really attuned to what I need when. So if it's um someone said one time, like, if you feel like everybody hates you, you need a nap. If you feel like you hate everyone, you need to eat. If you feel both, you need to take some space.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. I love it. Thank you, Melissa. That is an amazing word and and encouraging, inspiring information that people can, you know, just take from and pour to other people. And people want to listen. And I I know I mentioned your podcast, but I'd love for what you to repeat it, your podcast and your website and any other social media links that you're on, so that my listeners can connect with you and listen in or connect for whatever reason. What are those?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so my podcast by myself is called Emotionally Unavailable because I started that in the beginning of my journey of vulnerability. It's really transformed and evolved, it really does center around me and my transformation. But I have it's a lot like this, you know, different people coming on to give how they've kind of found the light and how they're sharing it with others and what their advice is. I've learned the most from the people on my show. Um, and then I really vibed with someone on the show, and I kind of wanted to do another one because I love to talk. So Angie and I started Unquiet Soul, where it's a little light, it's a little more lighthearted day-to-day type conversation, like where it's like this is what's come up this week. Normal human stuff where it's not like in theory, it's us living these things out loud, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and so truly the easiest way to find me is on Instagram at Melissa.hepner. My name is spelled different, M-A-L-I-S-A, but I'm very active there, and all of my links are on my link tree there. So you can get you can get anywhere you want to find me, DM me, whatever, like, and then we can communicate. You can find my website from there, whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Thank you, Melissa. It has been a pleasure. Thank you for taking up space with me, and I'm so honored to experience this time with you. Thank you again. I greatly appreciate you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. I had such a great time. Thank you as well.