From Personal Trauma To Collective Healing and Healing a Nation's Wounds.

What if the tools that mend a fractured family could also help heal a divided nation? That question drives our powerful conversation with psychotherapist and author Phyllis Leavitt, whose new book America in Therapy reframes politics through a mental health lens. We trace her journey from buried childhood trauma to profound spiritual moments and the steady, practical work of psychotherapy, then connect those lessons to the crises we’re all living through.

Phyllis argues that unhealed wounds don’t disappear; they reenact as harm. From the genocide of Native peoples to the legacy of enslavement to waves of migration under duress, the United States carries generational trauma that still shapes our behavior. She challenges the idea that our conflicts are purely ideological and shows how mental health, safety, empathy, boundaries, and repair—determines whether we choose domination or belonging. We dive into tough terrain: perpetrators who were once victims, accountability without retribution, and the corrosive incentives of for‑profit prisons that sideline rehabilitation.

Then we get practical. Borrowing from family therapy, Phyllis lays out steps any community can adopt: make safety and nonviolence nonnegotiable, learn nonviolent communication, shift from win-lose to mutual gains, and practice amends that rebuild trust. We also explore how faith and therapy can support each other when spiritual life is rooted in love rather than fear. You’ll hear how personal healing clarifies calling—whether that means running for local office, serving on a school board, building humane workplaces, creating restorative art, or raising children with intention.

If you’re hungry for a path beyond outrage, one that pairs compassion with clear boundaries and action, this episode offers a map. Listen, reflect, and choose one step toward repair in your circle. If this conversation resonates, follow share it with a friend, and leave a review to help more people find it. Your healing, and ours, starts here.

More on Phyllis Leavitt at her website at https://phyllisleavitt.com/

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

Host Intro And Guest Bio

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Good day, everyone. This is Nicole Ellis McGregor, the founders of the Overcomers Approach podcast, where I meet with different people from different walks of life, different experiences, different careers, different expertise. But the overarching theme is that we almost have the ability to overcome almost anything that we are presented with if we have the right tools, a multidisciplinary approach, or whatever works for you. But I love the fact that we have Phyllis Levitt here, who can talk more about her new book that she recently written and America in Therapy: A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nation in Crisis. And our nation is on fire right now. I just want to give you a little intro on Phyllis, and we'll just let it roll from there. She's a psychotherapist, author, and speaker who spent more than three decades helping individuals, couples, children, and families heal from trauma, abuse, and dysfunctional family dynamics. She did earn her master's degree in psychology and console from Antioch University in 1989 and co-directed the Parent United Sexual Abuse Treatment Program in Santa Fe, New Mexico before entering private practice. She extensively has worked with survivors of abuse and family dysfunction with spiritual and psychological elements essential to deep healing. She's the author of three books, American Therapy, A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nation in Crisis, A Light in the Darkness and Into the Fire, and has been on several podcasts, speaking, and so many other great things. I believe she resides in New Mexico with your husband. Am I right? Great. Congratulations. And just to get started, Phyllis, I just want to honor you and thank you for this time this morning or this afternoon, depending upon what time zone you're in. You converse with me regarding your experience and your expertise.

Personal Trauma And Spiritual Awakening

SPEAKER_03 1:51

And I want to get started in how did you decide to be the field that you're in? What brought you to that? I always kind of like to touch base on that element. What brought you to here and you to make the career decision that you chose?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah. Well, I had my own traumas in childhood, like so many people. And I had buried them all. I did not remember what happened to me because it was so traumatic. And that happened sometimes. And so I just sort of grew up with this very deep feeling of not being lovable, that there was something wrong with me, that I couldn't figure out what it was. And long story short, um I ended up well, and I had several spiritual experiences along the way, which were sort of counter to what I felt inside, where I had these moments where I kind of dropped into this space of absolutely divine love and connection to something much bigger than myself. And in in those experiences, I almost wasn't Phyllis. I was just part of this beautiful, divine, loving, electric kind of energy. And I've had some of those experiences in nature with a deep connection to the earth. Um, and I ended up in a spiritual group in my 20s, and um and I sort of pursued that path of a different kind of spiritual practice, and at some point I just realized that there was a healing that needed to happen on a psychological level, that the spiritual approach was wonderful, but it actually I needed something else, and I ended up going to therapy and remembering some of what happened to me and reprocessing that and um being able to like move through the dark. That was really a dark night of the soul for me, and able to move through that. And at that point, the psychological healing from the effects of the traumas that happened to me as a child and a spirit a greater spiritual awakening and opening kind of happened simultaneously. Um, where I began to receive guidance from my soul, from divine source, whatever you call it. Um, and I became a psychotherapist and I worked with lots and lots of people. And so those two worlds, though I kept them somewhat separate, and in my psychotherapy practice, I really just practiced mostly psychotherapy, those two worlds are really not separate from me. And I think they're not for a lot of people, even though in the world today we do kind of talk about them as two separate entities.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Yes. Thank you, Phyllis. I appreciate you giving that context, you know, what brought you on this journey to where you're at now. And I could totally identify with everything you're saying with my own lived experience and my own trauma and kind of having these convergences of the clinical and the spiritual wanting therapy, but my

Why America Faces A Mental Health Crisis

SPEAKER_03 4:45

my place of faith really kind of separating that. And I found that I couldn't free myself through what I was experiencing. I I didn't need clinical help. I did need to uh the therapist for support, and that at that time was kind of an out-the-box space to be in and different. Um, I'm glad I was courageous to do that because I believe I wouldn't be here without the help of my spiritual support, but also therapists along the way. And so I I'm grateful that um, and I I love the fact that you definitely there are they do intersect and they're very much intertwined. And so I love the fact that you address that. And um and other people in this journey, my listeners as well. Um, there's this is a safe space to really understand that and listen to this conversation so we that we can support others. Thank you, Phyllis. I greatly appreciate that that you sharing that information. Why do you think the United States is experiencing such a profound mental health crisis? And yes, there's some that's a loaded question, and I know I jumped right in.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Well, no, it's a good question. And let me just start by saying no one person has all the answers. I don't have all the answers, and I don't pretend to. Right. Because I think there are many different ways to look at why the United States is where it is today. My approach is the psychological approach, and the reason why I emphasize that is because I think it's really a big missing piece in political conversation today, and to some extent an unwanted piece because it challenges the rhetoric and it challenges the motivations of some of what's going on. Um, and the reason is basically simply this that our mental health is what determines how we treat other people. You know, if you're conditioned to in a in a home, let's just say that's abusive or neglectful or very discriminatory or where there's a lot of depression or addiction or obsessions or rejection, you're conditioned by that. Those are the role models of behavior that you learn. And if you are at the receiving end of these dysfunctional behaviors, there's no way that you don't get hurt.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Now, some people deal with that hurt more constructively than others, but the hurt is real. Some people become helpless and easily dominated because they've given up trying to protect themselves. Some people become highly aggressive because that's the role model that they observed and that they were subject to. And without treatment, without escape from dysfunctional family dynamics, and without treatment, we tend to reenact something of what happened to us, even if it's only directed at ourselves and not at other people. But often it's both. And a country is no different, and that's really what I'm saying in my book. Our country has its own conditioning, we have our history. We are made up, except for the Native Americans who were here way before any other people came who formed this country. Um, except for the Native Americans, we are actually all immigrants. And I think many people have forgotten that. And not only are we all immigrants, but many, many, many of the people who came here were fleeing trauma. They were fleeing war, they were fleeing poverty, they were fleeing religious persecution, they had been let out of jail to populate a colony. Um, and in those days, no one treated trauma, no one talked about trauma. So a lot of that trauma that people who came here had sustained was just reenacted. And we can see that in um in most glaringly in the way Native American people were just slaughtered and assumed that they had no right to the land because we wanted it. Um black people were enslaved with somehow the belief that we had a right to use people to our own economic ends. So people have brought their own hurts to this, to our history, and they have brought the hurt they have done. And that's actually what the best psychotherapy addresses in a way that's safe. It's not blaming, it's not judgmental, but with the purpose and the goal of healing. And that's the perspective I brought to America in therapy, that we have our own traumas and we have inflicted our own traumas. And if we don't break this cycle of abuse, it's only going to get worse. And what we face, and I think we're really facing this today in a way that I wasn't even facing when, or I mean,

Victims, Perpetrators, And Accountability

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I was kind of thinking about it, but not seeing it in real time in America, in today's world, is the real possibility of a third world war, which could wipe us all out. Yes. And this um mental health gap in our in our collective consciousness, in our national consciousness, I think is putting us at great risk. Just like if you took an individual family and they were spending their money on weapons instead of feeding their children or giving them a good education or getting them good medical care um or treating them all equally. If we were spending, if a family was spending all of its money on weapons and using them, we would say, what's wrong with that family? Yes, there's something mentally ill in that family, they need help, they have their priorities wrong. Um, that's so that's one thing, and so we can say that about a nation.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

The other thing is, and what I have really seen up close and personal as a therapist as well as being an individual person and a client myself, yeah, is that we what we all want is love and safe belonging. We all want to be valued, we want to be provided for, we want to feel like we matter, we want to belong, we want to be loved, and we want to be safe. And the gap between what we want for ourselves and what we're willing to do to other people is a mental health issue. And we have been sold that it's an ideological divide. And it's not.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Yes. Ooh, Phyllis, that is so, you gave so many great nuggets of information. First of all, I want to thank you for speaking to the land that we all reside on, which belong to Native Americans and indigenous people of the land, who are still to this day suffering still consequences of that generations. Um, also enslaved African Americans who I'm a descendant of as well myself. And I'm uh some other things that are in my history that are a part of that as well, which is very complex to speak to our nation as well. Um I think we reside in a system, just like you said, and that system is operating on just, you know, as you said, it's not at its most peak functional level right now, with the ideologies, the extreme. Um, and I'm sitting, and I'm not a therapist and I'm not licensed, I work in the Federal Human Services, but these unmet needs and a sense of control and safety and connection and love, how it's being presented is not at its not healthy. And we're reaching a point where we could go into World War III and we all could just be gone, you know. Right. And if this is not addressed, and I love the fact that you are addressing it because we have to address it, like you said, from the perspective that there is there's some mental health issues going on that need to be addressed. And just like you said, with an individual, with a family, with a system of those those there's potential for healing. And like you said, we all don't have the answers, but there's tools right journey to get what people need and love, safety, and connection while going about it in the manner that it's we're moving towards right now. So thank you. I appreciate that. I also you you hit something interesting. And I think you know, we have perpetrators in our societies and we have victims, and sometimes those perpetrators at one point were victims themselves, and they just kind of perpetrate those actions out on people. Um, how do you address with empathy? Because I think that we're gonna have to address that, or or I I love the fact that you've acknowledged that. How how do we move about that space? Yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

I think that's the real I think that's one of the most difficult spaces to navigate because it's not a choice between just having empathy or holding people accountable. We have to do both. And we have to do that with ourselves. You know, when an individual person goes to therapy, and and I mentioned this earlier, yes, we talk about the things that hurt us, but eventually, um, and I've seen this over and over again, both in myself and with you know countless clients, that when you really get a chance to address in safety the hurt that you have sustained and the impact that it's had on your life, if you're really doing that work, you will inevitably see the ways that you have been hurtful and want to make amends for those things. And I've seen this over and over with people. So being compassionate and accountable actually really go together. Um when someone has committed a you know a serious crime like murder or extortion or rape or child molestation or spousal abuse or whatever they've done, of course they need to be accountable. But what is our priority? Is our priority just to hate people, throw them in jail and and throw away the key?

Family Therapy Principles For A Divided Nation

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Or is it to do our very best to heal the wounded person inside them when possible? And we don't know how to heal everyone, for sure. There are people who are really a danger to society, no question. Right. But many more people have the possibility of healing and being rehabilitated than our current social system wants to acknowledge. And you know, as long as we have for-profit prisons, we don't want to acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

And I think that's a tragedy. And there are many people in jail for nonviolent crimes. There are many, many people in jail today who are untreated victims of child abuse and societal abuse who deserve another chance. They deserve a chance to um find, you know, to make amends and to re-enter society when when it that's the right thing to do. Um, so so we we have to, but I think we have to start by understanding that inside the perpetrator is a victim. And the one of the bigger points of my book is if we don't really, or let me just say this in a positive way, if we begin to address perpetration on a national level as well as on the individual level, and really try to break the cycle of abuse, yes means we understand there's a victim inside the perpetrator. We understand there's a victim inside the person who is complicit, we understand there's a victim inside the person who stands by and does nothing when they see violence happening, and we try to help everyone because the goal is to stop the cycle of abuse so that we don't have so many symptomatic people. That's right. About blame and shame and retribution. Accountability, yes, retribution, no.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Yes. Ooh, that is good. I I love the fact that you brought up for-profit prisons because um that's a whole nother podcast or a whole other time, but I love the fact that you touched on that because those for-profit prisons, it gets into a lot of um political dynamics, uh business dynamics, finances for those prisons have to be filled if agreements. And some people end up in those spaces who probably really shouldn't be there. And I do agree with you, those with the most egregious, you know, violent tendencies who cannot, for whatever reason. I and I don't believe that's a a larger percent, I believe a larger percent is exactly what you said mental health issues, victimization, and other things that can be real rehabilitated, I believe a large portion can. Uh, so I want to speak to that as well. I also like the fact that we, in order to break the cycle, it has to be addressed. And and and breaking that cycle sometimes for a system or sometimes even an individual that's functioning in that system. Once you decide to address it or speak out, it it, you know, and I can speak to this for myself, you know, me coming from a family, and we're healing and walking through this process as as I talk right now. But when I first stepped out and said, I need to address this, I need to acknowledge it, I think we need help. I I I wasn't treated like that. It was treated like I was the bad person. And um you know, kind of like uh the you could have not have said anything, and now you've disrupted our system. I think that could be stated for our nation because it's happening today.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

You know, it's happening all over the country today. That the people who are peacefully protesting injustice are being assaulted, they're being called domestic terrorists, they're being, you know, jailed without any rights, without any options to plead their case. Some are some have been murdered.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Yes. Yes, I thank you for speaking to that. My next question is how can the principles of family therapy help us understand heal political and social division

Integrating Faith And Therapy

SPEAKER_03 18:50

in America today? And you've touched on this, but maybe we'd go a little deeper in that.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yes. Yeah, and I definitely go in depth into it in my book, and there's more to be said than what's in my book, but you can only say so much in one book. Um but I think it's multifaceted, and that's what therapy is. You know, and therapy deals with our conditioning, our history, the role models that condition the way we behave in the world, the beliefs we've adopted, and um and then the other influences that have come to us from the outside world, from our communities, from schools, from businesses, from government, and from everything else. Um, so part of it is healing ourselves. There is there is no healing on a mass level without some attention to healing our own wounds because we carry them with us. You know, and there are people, absolutely there are people who, without any therapeutic intervention, have not continued the cycle of violence in their lives. But there are many more who unconsciously have either become aggressive and perpetrating themselves on some level, or who have become more and more helpless in defending themselves and others. So the the individual level is critical. But one of the reasons why I wrote the book is because I think national intervention, collective intervention, whether it's in a business, a church, a school, a community, or in a nation is just as important today because we affect each other so deeply. So some of those principles are um, you know, and the the the first big one, and I think this is hard for our country today to even hear is nonviolence.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

If you're not safe, you cannot heal. You have to defend. And we do our best to defend against whatever is hurting us, whether it's verbal and emotional attack, sexual assault, physical violence, discrimination, poverty, whatever it is. So people have to be safe. There's no therapy that can be done in an office if somebody's holding a gun to the other person's head. It cannot happen. So that's the big one, you know, and we have yet to really face that as a nation. If we want peace, we have to be peaceful. It's like a no-duh. That doesn't mean we can't be powerful, that doesn't mean we can't speak truth, that doesn't mean we can't have consequences, that doesn't mean we can't have appropriate expectations, but that's very different than just feeling entitled to be violent.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

And so that's just the beginning. And I and so some of it is after that is we really in the in the psychotherapeutic world, we really help people learn how to communicate nonviolently, how to take responsibility for themselves without falling into shame, how to heal their own wounds, how to listen to other people the way they want to be heard, how to speak the way they want to be spoken to, how to get out of this win-lose paradigm, which is I'm right and you're wrong, and you have to. Admit that you're wrong and I'm right, otherwise we're we can't come together. When the other person feels exactly the same way.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

You know, how so the focus is on self-responsibility? What am I contributing to this disagreement? How could I behave differently that might be more healing, calming, um, reconciling, compromising, reconnecting with you? What could I do that could help us get out of the disagreements and the conflicts that we're in? Am I willing to

Practical Steps Toward Personal And Civic Healing

SPEAKER_00 22:30

make amends for my own behavior if I've been in the wrong?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Can I extend a hand to you across the aisle, whether it's the aisle of our relationship or the aisle in Congress? And is my goal to actually reconnect with you, cooperate with you, care about you the way I want you to care about me for our mutual good? These are some of the underlying principles of therapy. And we see them happen. When people have a chance to heal, they want these things. Yes. And that's what I want for our country. And these principles of nonviolent, peaceful, self-responsible communication could be enacted in Congress and facilitated in Congress or other levels of government if we wanted it. But right now we're not there. Yeah, that's why I'm speaking to that. And then there's many other things that I can add to that, but I want to let you know what you want to say. Yeah, no problem.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

And I know we got like seven, eight more minutes somewhere around that. And this is so good. But I think you we started out with some basic things. People want a certain uh speaking to the violence. I think when we come from a culture and a country and a history, and in America is complex because it can be beautiful in one part, and it's very difficult in other spaces. And I think that uh historically, when we look at dominance of countries and people and um vulnerable people, children, the elderly. I mean, we could speak to so many populations within that don within that within that paradigm or system, there has been a history of violence. And so sometimes we take on that familiar culture, and that's not that's not how we that's not how we have to move. And not violence actually does work. Um active listening does work. I think when you actually listen to people and take time, you'll find out that there's more common commonalities and differences. Right. Um, and partnership and collaboration. And like you said, but none of that can really start without people feeling safe to do it. Right. Because if you're constantly in defense mode and protection, I can speak to this survival mode, it's hard to even address the safety issue because you're in a constant state of survival and defense. And I think for myself, until I got therapy, I moved as a victim in almost every space that I was in because that's really like all I knew. And so um I just also when I got into spaces, I began to placate to that, especially around very dominating people or forces. Yeah. Yeah, I relate to that too. And in order to bring my my whole self to the to the space, there's some healing that I had to get take place, and then I learned how to communicate more effectively and different when I was in those spaces, and it and it changed the situation or atmosphere. And I could choose not to be there or choose to be there with appropriate boundaries. So I love the fact that you you talk about that, because if we look at it on a system level on where we're at in the United States, there could be some there could be some progress.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

So absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

I love the fact that you said that. What do you say to people? We touched on it earlier, too, no matter what your spiritual denomination or faith or

Resources, Books, And How To Connect

SPEAKER_03 26:00

walk or uh whatever whatever your belief system is, how do you intertwine um for those who want to do that, or maybe they feel a sense of discomfort, how do they step outside of that box of exploring therapy and aligning it with their spiritual beliefs? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Well, I I think and there's a this is a long conversation that we probably don't have time to have, but one of the things I would say is that, and I've seen this in myself, is that our spiritual beliefs can be very much conditioned by our unhealed wounds.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

So if you were really dominated as a child and you were taught that you have to listen to authority, and authority can be both, you know, praising or very punishing, and that you have to uh comply to a certain set of standards in order to be loved, in order to be feel like you're gonna go to heaven or be treated well by your father or mother, then you might be attracted to a spiritual practice or a religion that has a very dominating, punishing sense of God.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

And that's not necessarily true about what spirit is, but we we do that. We impose our unhealed wounds everywhere we go, on our businesses, on our children, on our spouses, on our beliefs about politics and culture and religion and business. So I think the the key is to really look for healing because my experience is that spirit is never punishing, it's never judgmental in a negative way. It's truthful, yeah, it speaks truth to me, but from a from the point of view of loving me and wanting me to heal. Yes, and that's what I believe the intersection of psychology and spirituality is all about. It's about love and the desire to find healing and see the good, the essential good in each other that we were all born with before we got written on by faulty conditioning.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Um that's that's one way of saying it.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yeah, and that's that's good. You know, I think I could, you know, speak to myself regarding that. I think on my spiritual journey, I haven't left the faith that I'm in, but I left the spaces that I was in. And it really brought evolved and grown. Um, and I know that initially I was attracted to, I found myself in spaces that felt like some of my conditioning. Um, and then once I began to move out of that space into more loving spaces, I didn't change the faith, I changed the environment and the people that I was around that really felt love and healing. Exactly. That brought a whole new evolution evolution to you know who I am and how that manifests within my own family because I want to leave legacy and I don't want to leave a legacy of harm, dominance, pain, unhealed. Um, and I think that would be the most um make me the probably the most uncomfortable is that you know, I leave here not leaving that legacy of freedom and peace and love. Um, and so I love the fact that you that you touched on that. What do you think people could do? My last question. Um, people are finding that they're moving towards healing, they're moving towards more of a collaboration, um, moving out of the space of defensiveness or violence. Um, but they find that, you know, whether it's a school, it's a church, it's your family. What is a couple of recommendations you can give for people who are in contemplation? You know, they're they're considering it, they don't know, but they want to move towards that space of healing. What are the and and then of course that kind of filters out into the United States because all these systems are interconnect interconnected on a micro and a macro level. What do you think? Because the problem is, I feel like so huge now, but I believe each each each of us have like there's something that we could do to impact that. What are your thoughts on that or what suggestions are you?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really think it does start with us as individuals. Yeah, the more of us do that kind of healing work, which means in some way that you get more and more in touch with your essential self. And every person's essential self has a contribution. I fully believe that. Some people are drawn to making beautiful art or music or taking care of animals or growing beautiful gardens and organic food or running a business on, you know, on a whole different paradigm of employer-employee relationships, or they want to clean the water, or they want to, you know, address climate change, or they want to be right, they want to run for office, or they want to, you know, we all have something different that calls to us. And so the important thing is to listen to what calls to you and not let other people dissuade you. If your heart says you really want to become the mayor of your town, go do it. Yeah, if your heart says you just really want to be a mom and take care of your kids and raise them really well and make a wonderful home for your children, do that. Every contribution, whether you we consider it large or small in our society, and hopefully we can get rid of some of that judgment about the scope of what we do. That's right. Every contribution counts, every person's healing counts. Yes, and so tune in. You know, what calls you? What are you afraid of the reaction other people might have if you actually really did manifest your calling in the world? Um, or are you afraid of failure? And deal with that, you know. So, yeah, like believe in yourself, listen to yourself, tune into yourself, trust your intuition. And if you really feel blocked, get help.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Yes. I love that. I love the fact that you spoke to that. You know, whatever their their heart is calling them to or their soul, whether that is to be the mayor or to sit on the library board, school board board, or senator. Like we need authentic people to bring your full heart to this and and support this into transforming and healing. I love the fact that you said that. If you want to be a mom, that's an awesome, incredible. Absolutely. With no judgment, you know. Right. Yes, yes. I love the fact that you noted that, Phyllis. Thank you. And I think that speaks to all of us, whatever that is. Uh listen to your heart and your soul and your calling. And I honestly believe it's going to lead you in the right direction with no concerns of what that judgment may be, because you're doing the right thing, you're on the right journey. Right. Phyllis, if anyone wants to purchase your books, if anyone wants to contact you for a speech or find out more about other podcasts that you've been on, what website can they go to?

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah, please. My website is my name, phyllislevitt.com, um, or www.phylislevitt.com. And I'm on all the social media, but you can contact me through my website. My books are available through Barnes and Noble and all the major booksellers. Um, and you can you can also see them on my website. You can buy them from my website. I have some free offerings on my website. I um and I'm happy to talk to anyone. Um, you know, and I have lots of recordings on YouTube of talks like this, and I basically I just want to share what I've learned that I think can help us heal.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Yes. Thank you for sharing, Phyllis. I greatly appreciate that. I appreciate the time you spent with me uh in this conversation. I know there's so much more that can be spoken about, but just this is just a start. And uh contact you on your website. I'll make sure that's in the description uh in my podcast narrative once I'm done editing it. But it's truly been a pleasure. Thank you, Phyllis. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure as well on my end. Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

As well, you're welcome. Thank you, Phyllis.