A Mother Faces Child Loss After Opioid Addiction

Grief doesn’t just hurt emotionally. Sometimes it moves into the body, changes your appetite, steals your breath, and makes ordinary errands feel impossible. I’m joined by Katie Rizzo, who shares the story of losing her firstborn son, Nicholas, to opioid addiction and the metaphor that helped her survive: grief unfolding like the trimesters of pregnancy. She walks us through the nausea and shock of early loss, the numb stretch where everyone else seems to “move on,” and the moment she needs the world to know her son existed and mattered.

We also get honest about the opioid epidemic, overdose deaths, and why so many addiction treatment systems fail families. Katie and I talk about stigma, shame, and the lie that addiction is a simple willpower problem. We connect the dots between relapse, isolation, jail, foster care, and the community-level cost of treating people as disposable. Along the way, we name privilege and disparities that show up in who gets punished and who gets supported, and why “all kids are our kids” has to be more than a slogan.

Katie shares what actually helps: Al-Anon, finding grief support groups with lived experience, and using creativity to keep breathing. Poetry becomes her way of speaking to Nicholas, and her husband turns to music, proving that art can be a real tool for coping with complicated grief. We close with hard-won practices for the darkest days, including choosing freedom over blame and learning to let grief sit beside you without letting it take over.The takeaway is not that loss becomes okay, but that meaning and even moments of joy can coexist with sorrow. For anyone facing child loss, addiction loss, or complicated grief, this is a empathetic map toward truth-telling, support, and a freer way to live.

If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find support.

More on Katie Rizzo at https://www.katierizzo.com/

Information and resources regarding this matter in the U.S.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/cm/opioid-addiction-resource-directory

https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/helplines/national-helpline

https://al-anon.org/

helplinehttps://988lifeline.org/

https://nida.nih.gov/

https://www.cdc.gov/overdose-prevention/index.html

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

Welcome And Nicholas Remembered

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello, everyone. This is Nicole Ellis McGregor, the founders of the Overcomer's Approach podcast. This is a podcast where I speak with people from different experiences, different walks of life, different journeys. But the overarching theme is that we have the ability to overcome almost anything that comes our way and pivot our storm into a real opportunity for growth and healing. I'm so happy that I have Katie Rizzle here with me today. On September 27th, I'm sorry, September 17th, 2024, Katie lost her firstborn son to addiction. She found that grief mirrored pregnancy. The first few months she had nausea as grief moved in. Then there was a period of numbness, followed by showing where she wanted everyone to know. She began writing poetry, something she had never done before, as a way to speak to him across the veil. Then when it got really unbearable, Nick Cave wrote a piece on asking grief to sit beside you, which was called Her Call to Delivery. Now she can walk with grief alongside hope to share her story to help others who have lost a child to anything like addiction that is stigmatized and to help anyone lost in grief. Katie, thank you for sharing your story. It's such a sacred place. I consider it an honor for you to be on the podcast today. And I just want to thank you for being here this morning. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Thank you. What a gift to be able to talk about Nicholas too.

Grief That Mirrors Pregnancy

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yes, thank you. Well, I'm gonna transition right in, Kate. You described grief as mirroring a pregnancy, which is very profound. And it's a metaphor, and it's something that I could totally relate to in so many ways. What came to you, and how do you identify how can you speak to that? Like where did you get that from, and how did that speak to you as you walked through your grief?

Overdose Deaths And Treatment Gaps

SPEAKER_04 2:04

Well, um, as you said in September, um uh we found out that our son had passed away from an addiction to oxycodone and benzodiazepines. And I felt this, the same feelings I felt during my pregnancy, I felt during um my grief. And it it felt like an ironic kind of gut punch. Uh, I found there was the first trimester where I was um my head just felt like I wasn't in my body, I was sick to my stomach, um, I couldn't get comfortable, I couldn't breathe. Uh it something was taking over. And I really believe kind of in on some level that my grief was half Nicholas and half me, and we were creating something new together. Uh, the second trimester started when everybody was going on with their lives, and I'd go to the grocery store, not very well, and people would just be moving on, and I would have this thing growing inside of me, and I just it it was unbelievable. I spent a lot of time in at home in bed. I put all of his dirty laundry around me and I would just smell him. I got to a different place, which I call my third trimester when I was just exploding with him. I needed everyone to know. Our uh we do Les Mills Body Pump, which is a silly um class. And I told all of our instructors, and it was just probably pretty mentally unstable. But um, the other thing that happened was I found that the one thing that was giving me some relief during then was I was writing poetry, which I'd never done before. Maybe in like elementary school, like I wrote a haiku, maybe. Uh, but I was writing poetry and posting it on Facebook and posting it on on Instagram because I felt like I needed the world to know like there that there was this really amazing person and he's gone. Yes. Um, and then as you said, grief was right in my face at all at all times. And I read Nick Cave, who is an amazing parent. He lost two sons, an amazing musician. Uh, he does a great blog as well. And he talked about taking grief and asking it to sit beside you. And I I felt like that was my calling to deliver grief historically. And since then I've done that a lot, I'll like you know, when I feel the wave coming, I'll say, okay, grief, you can sit here with me. Picture it kind of like a messy orangutan, um, wanting to destroy a room. Uh, and I'll try to sit with it and hold it. Um, and it's just a gift, it was a gift to be his mom. It still is a gift to be his mom. So yeah, I wrote a book um about this to help other parents. Um, because it's an epidemic, as you said. It is last year, um, 600,000 people in the world died of overdose, according to who?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

Um they'll if you see on the news, they'll say, oh, overdose deaths are down. But it's down by 1% or 2%. And that's, I mean, it's such a big number. And in the US, fentanyl deaths, my son didn't die from fentanyl, but he definitely tried it trying to kind of help his addiction.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

It's it's a it's an epidemic, and it's not we're not treating addiction in any way that is helpful. I think the statistics, at least what I can find on the internet for um opioid relapse for somebody who's gone to treatment, yeah. Uh relapse statistics are 70 to 90 percent relapse.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

That's high. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

So it just we're not we're not dealing with it well. And as you know, all we're telling people, hey, this is your problem with willpower. There's so much shame and embarrassment with addiction. And I feel like the only thing that a little bit is helping is AA. It seems like AA has some good numbers coming out of it, out of anything. Or I my husband and I go to Al-Anon, which is if you probably know, but it's for people who love somebody with addiction, and that's been very helpful as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yes. You know, I'm I want to say a couple of things. Um, I want to speak to, um, like you said, we're really not doing a really good job of taking care of addiction or really caring for like in a whole holistic perspective. I believe we have to speak to the person because I believe with the stigma, like you said, it's a willpower thing. And so many people, and I lost a brother to addiction uh back in 2020. That's so that, and thank you. Uh, that's okay. And I when you talked about grief, I can totally identify with that. Um, and I think um, you know, and I see these systems of care, like you have 30 days, you're in and out, that's really not enough time. Um, I think that uh there needs to be just so many changes and so many uh from a human perspective, treating people like humans um and being human-centered. Um, and and so I think I see the the the little potholes when you when you speak to that, because I work in human services and I get to see it up front in my face. And I help parents um who have children who are walking through their own addiction. And I see how it impacts parents. Um, and I'm a parent myself, I have two sons, and and one of my sons has struggled a bit in a period of his life, and thereby the grace go I, you know, I could have lost him.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

Um, and it's still like a fear in the back of my mind, like, oh, what if he just has a hard day one day, you know, and all that. And I do believe that um Alan, I believe like really speaking with people with lived experience is one of the biggest supports that that's really out there. Um, and so I appreciate that. And then just know I love the fact that you're keeping your son spirit alive, uh, and through this, through sharing your story, because that's so important that we we don't have that disconnect. And I think it's so powerful as a mother. Um, I've spoken to another mother who lost her her son, and she it's described it then the same way that you did, you know, like her womb was was somehow there's still like that attachment there, like supernaturally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, yeah.

Shame After Addiction Loss

SPEAKER_02 9:13

So I love this fact that you spoke to that. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Yeah. Well, I was just something about what you talked about the community, yeah. Being with other people with lived experience. Um after we lost Nicholas, I um, since I knew about Al Anon and how helpful it was, I went on the internet and I was just Googling, like, please, there has to be, I didn't know anybody who had lost a son to addiction. And there was so much shame. I mean, I had a neighbor who came over and was like, please don't talk to me about this. I can't handle it.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Wow. And I understand that. I mean, it it's whatever. Um, so I was Googling and I found a bunch, there's a there's a lot of support groups out there.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

Um, and one lit, love in the trenches, um, is for people who have lost their kids to addiction. Yes. And there's nothing more real than sitting in a group full of women and men who have lost their kids.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

And looking in their eyes, and um, you know, you can see you can see yourself.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

The other thing is is the the shame and the way our community is handling addiction. Um, Nicholas was kicked out of his rehab for not participating there.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

But he was not participating, which I agree, he probably wasn't. Um, and that kind of was the end of the last draw for him. So he came home and started using again. I'm not, I don't think that we can, I don't think that asking people to do this with their own self-will works, at least it didn't for him.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

If you look at how many people are in jail right now, and how many people in are in jail and using one of my really good friends just got out of jail and he said he thinks about 90%.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Oh, I agree. I agree, yes.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

And how many people are homeless? It's it's an epidemic, and we're treating it as if it's a problem with a personality or their willpower. When in reality, I just wish that we as a community could get together and really honestly look at what we're doing to play into it and how we could honestly help.

Identity And Self-Esteem After Loss

SPEAKER_02 11:43

I agree 100%. Like you said, what can we do as a community? And I believe that there's power in community. I think um we're kind of looking for these systems to help. And sometimes they can hurt more than they can help. And I think there's power in our own natural human resources. Like you said, when you look into another parent's eyes, you're seeing yourself in a way. That is so powerful and encouraging because I have connected with people who've lost a child to addiction and they've been silenced, they cannot talk about it at all within their families or within, you know, their communities that they may function in. And that just has to be so painful. I can't even imagine like having to just stifle that and not speak to that, you know. And I think there's healing opportunities, just like what you're saying, to share your story, to be in community with other people and to explore what solutions there could potentially be. Um, and I think that's I love the fact that you spoke to that. How do you think grief affects, as I talk through this, people's self-esteem? And how do you counter that? Because it it does, I think, impact self-esteem in a way, because you're a part of yourself, your identity.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

Yeah, well, I love that when Nicholas died, I realized I had grief for him and his future, and for his brothers, he has two brothers, and for our family, and also I had it for who I was because I was um an AP bio teacher at a public school who I taught my own son. I was very proud of our family, and I thought that I thought that I was on like that our happiness, all we had to do was work hard, and we could find happiness, and none of that is true. I am I had to see myself as the mother of somebody who has addiction, which is he had so much shame, and I had so much shame about it. And I also had to see myself as somebody who had lost a kid, so who wasn't a good mom. Right. And I think I've I think I've become more real. I see I hope I see people for who they who we all are, and everybody is worthy of love and belonging. Yes, and all the systems in our communities that are holding up like Instagram lives, or I don't it's just easy for me to feel uncomfortable with them now. And um, I spoke about my friend who got out of prison, so he is Hispanic and he went to prison for a long time for a D for two DUIs. Um Nicholas had a few DUIs, he never went to prison. I'm sure that that's uh an extreme amount of white privilege. Yeah, our whole justice system obviously I think is broken and it doesn't serve anyone. It didn't serve him, it doesn't serve the it doesn't serve anyone. I I just I want I need things to change.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

I know that a lot of people feel that strongly as well, or even have better reasons than I do, but I don't know how to change it, but I I want I want to be out there.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Yes. I think um you just sharing your story is the first step, like just giving voice to that experience, I think is the first step. Yes.

Foster Care Prisons And Community Duty

SPEAKER_04 15:36

I I hope so. And and I just um do you know what Casa is? Quarter Pointed Special Advocate. Okay, so I'm a quarter-appointed special advocate, which means that I kind of help one person in the foster care system. Yes, and I'm watching uh it's just devastatingly sad, but I'm watching this one girl who is in a group home, and her and her seven other foster kids, but that's gonna be a whole generation we're gonna lose.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

That's right. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for speaking to that because that's how impactful it truly is. So not only the whole generation, but if there's a generation after them that's gonna be impacted, yeah, and so I I I love this fact fact that you spoke to that because we really have to look at it in that context, you know, that it's that person is tied to a family, that person is tied to community, that person is tied to a generation, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

And then yeah, yeah, and the unfairness of it all, it's just it. Um I get to spend a day with her on Wednesday, or not a whole day, but a few hours, and we're gonna go get snacks. And she wants snacks because this kills me. They're doing standardized testing at school, and she said, All the other kids with moms have snacks. Yes, I want snacks, and it just um I don't know, it's it's time for us all to do a little bit more for our communities, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Right, I agree, and just that that experience alone that you spoke to is so impactful um to children. Like I think people try to make it way bigger than it is. It's that act of kindness, that act of she had a need and she wanted to be acknowledged, she wanted to be seen and heard, and you provided that.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

We'll see, but it's so big, like uh I feel like women are the and I have a great husband. I have three I have three Amazing Boys, one isn't on the earth anymore. So men are awesome too, but I feel like that's women need to start saying, like, no, that this this isn't okay. Like we can't have kids in group homes. Yes, they're hurting, and and we can't have kids who are struggling with addiction or kids in prisons just forgotten about. It's it's it really is time, it's time for us to change this whole picture.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

I agree, and I love the fact you're speaking of something in me, I think on a number of of reasons. I you know, when I spoke of one of my sons who struggled with addiction, um, he was caught with something minuscule that should have sent him to drug court, never had a criminal history. He was 17, they charged him as an adult and they sent him straight to prison. Not a violent, not a violent, you know, they couldn't even find anything uh in his history. And so um that devastated me, you know. But yeah, he wasn't gonna die from it. That's okay, you know. But the fact that you speak to that, you know, I think people need to see how impactful this is as we go back to the prison. And that's a whole nother subject because I think they need to fill the prisons for a variety of reasons. And I think historically, if we look at uh there is disparities within those systems, there is there's racism, you know, and I know it makes people very uncomfortable, but in order to change things, we have to speak on it. And I understand that people are in certain environments where they can't speak on it, but when you can speak on it, say something. Yeah, um, I think uh part of my job too, I work as a community resource navigator, so we get calls from group homes. We get I get calls from parents whose whose kids are having psychotic breakdowns or they've had a bad experience with a drug, or these kids are running from group homes, but they're not running, they're running because there's a need there. Yeah, yeah. And so you can everything you say, I I I agree with 100% because I I live this personally and professionally in my life.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

Yeah, beautiful that you're there to talk to because I feel like yeah, so it's a disease of isolation, right? Like there's so much shame. Go back into your house, don't talk about it. Your kid's an addict, your kid is this, like go figure it out and don't bother the rest of us. And that's right. Yeah, whatever you guys did to mess up your kid, go figure, you know, and yeah, I when I I enjoy being around people who are real and and and that isn't real, right? And and yeah, here's I I'm sorry about your son. Oh and I've heard it a million times where um Nicholas at one point was driving under the influence, which I don't condone, I I don't do myself. Right. Um, so I'm not excusing him. And he shouldn't have been doing it. And in the middle of the night, he got pulled over, he got out and ran. And when he when we found him, he said, Yeah, he's like, I I that was white privilege right there that I didn't get shot. And that was white privilege, right? And also it didn't serve him any, right? It didn't serve him to get off. It didn't, I mean, he just kept being doing the same things over and over. Like it's time that we say, like, all kids are our kids. And I don't know, yeah, I really want that to be true.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

All kids are our kids. I agree 100%. Uh, and and and I love the fact that you said all kids are kids because that's really what how it really should be, no matter what what real faith you believe in, or if you don't, don't. Whatever that is, from every cultural perspective, every religious perspective or spiritual, those are the natural tenements of that, which is all kids are kids.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Poetry And Art As Survival

SPEAKER_02 22:11

And um, I think the more that we see that, and that's how I do practice when I do the work that I do when I speak to other parents, um, it they may be going through different experiences, different journeys, whatever that is, but I can identify the space that they're in. It may not be the exact same, but I spoke to a mother the other day, and her son is, you know, having anger issues and chemical health issues. And as we're talking, she needed to be heard. She needed to be heard. She was like, He's angry with me. You know, we we can work on all the the other stuff, but I just needed to let her know as a mother, I can identify with that. And I've heard those same words myself. It didn't mean that my son hated me, he may have said it. I was holding him accountable, and there were some primary things there, trauma that he was trying to work through. It's so big and loaded, but those simple acts of kindness, and that all children are our children, it it can really move the move the pen just a little. So I love the fact that you said that. Let's hope it moves, let's move it a lot. Yes, yeah. When you when you say that um creativity helped you to through your grief, I think that's super big. How do you think that it helped you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

Well, as I said, so I'd never written a poem before, and I started writing poetry in the morning. I would sit down and make coffee and try to think about him and our relationship and our family and what I missed and the injustices, and um, and so I'd just start writing it a poem, and I would post it on the internet like a crazy person. And I felt like just somebody out on the street corner just beating my chest with a sign like it's not okay. This is not okay. Um, my other two sons are in their 20s, and I thought that they were gonna be horrified. And both of them have been very encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

Yeah, I think that they I'm I think this rocked their world too. And and I think both of them see that maybe all the things that we bought into the structures of like this is the way it should be, that that none of that matters when you don't have your kid with you.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

That's right, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Yeah, my husband took up the guitar, he'd never played the guitar before, and he's taking lessons from Oda Guitar Center, and he has gotten really good. And pretty much art is is at least a little bit kind of not making it better because it's never gonna be better, but it's gonna it's helping us kind of lean into it and and feel it a little bit more fully. So he will play guitar all the time, and I'm writing, and I think we're both trying to figure out the next best step. Yes, how to how to move with this grief for us. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Thank you for sharing. I think that could help so many people um listening. You know, I I do believe like creativity, writing, you know, it helps with emotional regulation. I think there's a a healing component to it as well. Um, and I love the fact that you guys didn't just the grief never goes away, like you said, but how can you walk alongside of it? What is that? What can you do with that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:58

I um I'm in a group lit, love in the trenches for people who've lost a kid to addiction. And we meet once a month and write.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

And if you want to sit with a group of very real people who will not put up with anything not real, that's them. Yes. Um, and to hear their words, yes, and know that their words are very similar to how I'm feeling, if not a a a carbon copy of it, it's pretty beautiful.

What Helps When You Feel Alone

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yes, yes. Beauty can come out of this, yeah. And you know, it may not, and uh, I I someone said this metaphor, broken crayon, steel color, you know. And I think that beauty definitely can come out of grief. I think that was why I started the overcomers approach, just through my life experiences. Yeah, what could come out of this? I can connect with people who overcame, or if they've not overcome, how can you walk alongside the experience so that you can bring something beautiful out of it or touch more lives or have these wonderful conversations? So thank you. What would you say to parents who have lost a child to addiction or lost a child to suicide or some other experiences? And they are in isolation, they are in shame. Yeah, they are in grief, and like you said, the Instagram stories they tell all the that's kind of an illusion, that's a whole nother story, too.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

It's true, it is an illusion, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

And they feel shame because oh, somebody's other son has just gone off to be an engineer and he's playing football and all these beautiful things, but getting married, he's having a new baby, right?

SPEAKER_04 27:44

Right, and and then you really feel isolated and you get caught up in I know it's so hard because I want to believe that there's enough good for everyone in the world, yes, and I think I think that is a true statement, and there's also some really deep pain in the world, and yeah. So, what would I want to say to parents? So um, well, first of all, is I'm sorry, and second of all, something that I did that helped, but I don't know it would help them, but I hope it would, is um, I read Colin Campbell's book, They're finding the words, and some things he recommends are saying yes to everything, which is very strange. But I started my husband and I did that, you know. Sure, I'll go get a pedicure. Oh sure, I'll go walk the dog with you, or yes, please bring over another casserole. But you know what? Connection is really why we're here because if not if you're not connecting with somebody, I don't know what the whole point is anymore. Right. Um, exercising has really helped us, and they talk about metabolizing grief, and I think um letting it move through you and um in Al Anon, they say motion is lotion, which I think is very cringy, but it is true. Right, yeah, it is true, yeah. Art is helping looking at the words world and trying to find something in it that Nicholas loved helps too.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

And then noticing that, like my camera's full of pictures that I I can't send to him, but I I hope he feels like this little string of like, hey, mom thought about me. Yes. I've been sending it to my other two boys too. Um we have an aura frame, or it's an internet frame where it just and so I'll look at the memories of us, and for a while I thought that was kind of unhealthy. Okay. But um, I we went to a talk by this um neurologist at BU. His name is um Steve Ramirez, so Boston University. He talked about how he found that reliving happy memories really does increase your dopamine. And so that's important too.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Thank you. Wow, that gives um that gives hope, and I think it gives some type of action as you're angry. Like you say, say yes to everything. Like I get the fact that you're like, hmm, yes, maybe, but connection is everything. And and um, I love the fact that you and and which is leading me on my closing questions, um, some of the ways you stay connected to your son Nicholas, you know, um, are those some of the ways or any other ways I think that speaks to other parents who might be dealing with grief and how to stay connected to your child, you know, why they're still here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Well, one thing that they say in Alan is if you want to have a self-esteem, do an esteemable thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

And um, so when I get really low, I start thinking like, what is it that I what could I do that would show that I have some self-esteem? So maybe reach out to somebody. Um I've been making cards, which is just very goofy. Uh sending a card to somebody to thank them. Um I know gratitude is like everywhere, but it is it's a thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

It is.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

Um and also to talk to people. Uh there back to my exercise class. There was a woman who found out that I had been published, and she's like, Oh, I want to read your book. I can't wait. And my book is about grief.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

And so it was such a great opportunity for me to say, it's about my book's about grief. And I lost my son, and you don't need to take care of me, but it's been my opportunity to share with the world like lessons that I've learned.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

And ever since then, she and I are like this. You know, I'll show up and she'll be like, You weren't here yesterday. Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

It's it's connecting with people and being real and yeah.

Choosing Freedom Grace And Hope

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yes. What uh my closing question, and then I'll give you an opportunity if people want to reach out to you for to be a speaker or to uh purchase your book. I'll give you an opportunity to say that whatever that link is and where they can reach out. As you walk, navigate through this grief journey, you know, as a mother. Um, like you said, I love the fact you said to three sons. Yes, yes. Um, as you navigate through this journey, as you walk through this, um, and I love the fact I want to make one comment. You said women need to get together and do something. I love men too. I'm married as well. I have two sons myself, but I do believe there's something innately in women that are so holistic and so nurturing and problem solvers uh in a more uh family-centered way. It doesn't negate the men because they all have a role. But I just want to say I agree with that. I meant to say that. Um, but as you navigate and walk through this journey, um what continues to give you hope, especially if you have a day where you might feel hopeless, you know, because we have it goes in waves, I think.

SPEAKER_04 33:22

Oh, it does. My team loves to say it goes in waves, but at the top, Nicholas isn't here, and at the bottom he isn't here. So it does go in waves. Um, I think that it all comes back to me. Another Al-Anon saying is how free do you want to be?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

And I want to be free. That's right. And it's so easy to get stuck in being a victim and blaming others, and you know, hating the doctor that prescribed all these opioids and benzodoptazepines, hating drug dealers, whatever that means. And then, you know, I'm sure my son dealt drugs, and I'm sorry to whoever he did. And right seeing like like what that story isn't serving me.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

That's right. That is so good. I think yeah, wow. I always say from victim to victor, I love to say that. And I think uh there's power in you speaking to that, like you said, you know, being mad at the doctor, being mad at the drug dealer, you know, being mad at um maybe of him may at the wrong time or whatever experience may have made the wrong decision or choice. Yeah, but really taking that anger and and and making it for a greater serving it for a greater purpose. You know, I love that. And and like you said, you ultimately want to be free, you know, yeah, and that brings joy, not just happiness, but joy. And you could even have joy in the midst of your grief. I know it's kind of conflicting. I've had that experience, you know, where um I am feeling so maybe not the most hopeful, but in that moment, I could experience two contradicting things at the same time. And that's okay. That's okay, yeah. So I love the fact that you spoke to that. There's we just, you know, want to be free, free to be ourselves, free to tell our truth, free to tell our story, free to not to be Instagram perfect because nobody is.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Yeah, yeah, and when you see something, I we gotta start talking about it, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:33

That's right. We gotta start telling the truth.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

And giving grace, you know, giving grace to ourselves and giving grace to others, you know, through through this life experience and this journey.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Yeah, you're so right. And that's something when you just real quick, when you said what would you say to somebody who lost a kid to addiction or killed themselves, or I don't think that's the way we're supposed to say anymore. Like exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

I don't know. I I'm trying to learn too. So thank you for giving me grace because that was going on in my head as well.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

There's a better way to say it, and I'm not saying it correctly, but I feel like there's so much guilt and and anger at ourselves that finding grace for somebody else, and then seeing like, oh, they're on the same boat as me. So maybe I can give myself a little bit of grace. That's huge.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

That's right. Well, Katie, thank you. I so appreciate this experience this morning. It was just so impactful. I'm glad we were able to connect. If people want to purchase your book or reach out to you to be a speaker, where can they go to?

Books Preorders And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_04 36:41

Okay, great. Um, so I wrote a book called The Trimesters of Grief, and it is available for pre-order on June 12th. Anywhere books are sold. And then it was out on October 6th. And if you go to katyrizzo.com, um, you can learn more about that. Um and also I have a book of poems coming out as well on um Dea Delis Los Mortis, which is November 1st, and it's called None of Them Are You. Um, if you go to katyrizzo.com, I am giving out pre-order swag. So um go there and figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

I love it. I love it. Thank you. Uh go to her website, pre-order the book, look at the swag and all the opportunities just to um hear her story and poems and the book on grief as well. Thank you, Katie. I greatly appreciate this. Thank you as well. It's been a joy this morning speaking with you, and I'm glad we connected. Thank you. Thank you.