#131: How Healthy Couples Handle Conflict

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In this episode, Drs. Derek and Laura Cabrera answer a personal question from Training Camp: how do they handle conflict as a couple?

They explain how understanding mental models changes the way people disagree. Instead of seeing conflict as “you versus me,” they show how many disagreements are really differences between two mental models—two ways of organizing information and interpreting reality. That shift makes conflict less personal, less emotionally charged, and much easier to work through.

The conversation explores emotional regulation, the Love Reality Loop, assumptions, intention, action-reaction dynamics, perspective taking, and the importance of slowing down before reacting. They also show how tools like Is/Is Not Lists, Perspective Circles, and mental model checking can help couples, families, teams, and leaders communicate more clearly.

If you want to fight less, understand more, and stop turning assumptions into emotional reactions, this episode offers a practical systems thinking framework for handling conflict with more clarity, honesty, and agency.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Cabrera Lab podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Hey.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hey.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:08

I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 0:09

What do you mind doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:10

I'm mimicking you.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

So here we are.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

We had an interesting question come to us across uh in the training camp.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

From one of the people in the training camp who we know and love very well.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

And he did preface his question with this might be a little bit too weird or too personal of a question. Yeah, he asked. He said, how how let's see if I can remember how he said it. How do you guys fight? Like if you have to fight, how do you fight? Do when you fight, how do you fight?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Like us as a couple.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Which was an interesting question.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

It is an interesting question.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

You and I had a sort of interesting conversation about it, and I thought, why not answer it here?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

So that everyone can benefit from the answer.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Okay. Well, the first thing I'd say is I don't, you know, I mean, we disagree on things, but I don't know if we fight. Do we fight? I think if you define fighting as closed-minded race voice arguments, you know, combative kind of thing. No, they're very rare.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah. They're very rare, if at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Like ever. Well, maybe I can't even think of one, but they are rare.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

But when they happen, they're almost kind of funny. Because it's like so not like us.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah. So what do we do differently? Well, I think I mean I think we'd probably do a bunch of things that um make a difference. I mean, he I think he he was specifically asking, like, does understanding DSRP change the way you approach you know, disagreements and all that kind of stuff between, in this case, a couple, you know, where where things are more sometimes more supercharged or whatever, you know, than than in other situations.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

I would describe us as supercharged, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

But I mean, I think i strangely enough, it's really about the very simple fundamentals. You know, it's not like anything super technical or super um Mysterious. Mysterious, right? I mean the the the simple idea that of mental models, M equals IO, you know, right? The mental model equals information that's organized, organizing information to create meaning. I think that has a huge effect, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

It has a huge effect. I would say huge.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Huge. Because in very simple terms, when we are disagreeing, it's almost like instead of just the two of us, there's four of us. There's my mental model and your mental model, and there's you and there's me, and you can differentiate between me and my mental model.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

And you can differentiate between you and your mental model. So you can distinguish those things, and you can distinguish between your mental model and my mental model. And as a result of that, you can have a clarity of conversation that isn't like super personalized, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:08

No, because the disagreement is behind is between what your mental model is and what my it's not you versus me. It's how are you thinking about this versus how am I thinking about this.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, and even the disagreement part, you know, if we take more stuff into account, the disagreement part is it's really less of a disagreement, although it is a disagreement, you know, versus a difference. A difference, right? So if you have, you know, when you think of something, you think of four, we were gonna do four things, and I think of, oh, we were gonna do three things, then you can kind of very clearly be like, oh, yeah, we just had totally different mental models of what the plan was or what the whatever.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Mine has more, so it's probably we want everyone in the world on the path to pro. White belt, yellow belt, blue belt, landing in the PST credential.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

The professional systems thinker credential. And that's not just personal, it's also part of a wider vision of eight billion systems thinkers above the standard, which is the professional systems thinker or PST. Count yourself into it and let's change ourselves. And when we change ourselves, we change the world. I would say that the mental model, the M equals IO, the recognition, the awareness of mental models is one of the first big steps. The second big step I'm gonna interrupt on that one last thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

The thing that's really fascinating about this is it shifts everything from uh nothing, nothing seems personal. Yes, because there's less emotionally charged reactions when you're at the mental model level versus the person-to-person level, and that was a huge shift for me personally early on.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Because you know, I I grew up uh in a household where people fought a lot.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

And and so to be able to see a different way of communicating through argument was was important.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, and the the the other thing about mental models, so uh, you know, I I hate to share like all the math, but the math is kind of really it's very simple and and elegant, you know, which is like the mental model produces any of your actions, including all of your behaviors and all you know, all of your behaviors or actions, and it also leads to all of your emotions, which is a behavior and an action. And so if the if I agree with you that it's different because it's less emotionally charged, but when it becomes, or if it becomes emotionally charged, you can kind of say, like, well, that's interesting. You're feeling all these things, emotion. Yeah, I think it's because of this mental model that that mental model leads to that emotion that you're having.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

So even that is so different that I think a lot of fights are, I feel a certain way, and you're you're the one that did it.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

You're the one, you're the reason I feel this way. But in this idea, the mental model that you have is the re so not even you, but your mental model that you're building is leading to the emotion. And emotional regulation is kind of understanding that.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

It's understanding, oh, interesting. So, like, there's something I'm putting into my mental model, which might which might be one thing. It might be like, I think you said that to hurt my feelings. Well, you don't know if that's the truth. No, you don't know if I said that to hurt your feelings. You you know that you think that, right? You think that.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

As a result of thinking that, it brings up emotions. So then that brings us to the next spot spot, which is the RIO, reality is also organized, and the love reality loop, which is, you know, mental models matching up with reality. The love reality loop. And we do this too, because we say, Well, wait a minute, so you think I said that to hurt your feelings, but did I? Is that is that true? Who could possibly know that? Well, in this particular example, I'm probably the only one who would know that. You would know your intentions, you would know what your intentions were. And if you're being honest with yourself and you, you know, respect all the honesty part of a relationship, then you would say, Yeah, maybe I did. Or you would say, No, I didn't. And as soon as as soon as you say that, then this goes away.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Because reality is more important. We have to love reality more than our mental models.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yes. And what's interesting about all the stuff you've written up there is, I mean, I'm older now. I'm a little bit, you know, I'm I'm as you get older, you kind of calm you know yourself better, you're calmer, you sort of now that you're 29.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

God, I love you for that.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Amazing. Oh, yes. But as you hit your 30s, you get a little more mature. One of the things that's really interesting is I can when I'm in a moment where I feel like I'm starting to be emotion, like out of like not regulating my emotions, or I'm confused by something, or I know I I know I'm at that the precipice of reacting to something, I actually can use this as sort of a diagnostic, and I'll stop myself and I'll say to myself, what what is the mental model that I have right now that is leading me to be at the precipice of reacting? And then once I sort of identify with us, I'm like, okay, what do I know about that mental model that's real? Yes. What what is observably true about that mental model? That's right. And I'll test the assumptions I'm making. Sometimes the assumptions that we make are about other people's intentions or other people's words, or and then I can stop and say, wait a minute, did you intend X? Or when you said this, did you mean that?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah, or check my understanding. Yeah, absolutely. And or is there any evidence whatsoever that your mental model is reality? Yes. And not just cherry-picking the confirmation bias evidence, but really being in love with reality more than your mental model.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

That's what the love reality loop's about.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

So that that's critical. And a lot of times those mental models that that bring that on have nothing to do with the argument that you're having or the debate or whatever. They have to do with, you know, oh, when when certain things happen in my childhood, then it would lead to XYZ. So you're like, oh, that's gonna lead to XYZ. But it doesn't have to lead to XYZ, it just experientially has led to XYZ.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

And so you have anxiety around XYZ, but it doesn't have to. And and it and and you, you know, if it doesn't always in in your new environment, then you can relieve yourself of that mental model over time.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

I have a great example.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

I am terrible at navigation. I literally can walk out in my backyard and not know what direction is what. I'm terrible at navigation and directions.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, I think when when I first met you, I don't know if you even knew what the cardinal directions were.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

I kind of did. I mean you did. I don't know. Anyway, my point is I'm terrible at navigation, and you are obviously quite good at it because you're a mountain guide.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

And early on, I would be handling the nick the navigation, the directions in the car, and it would be a point of contention because I was terrible at it, and I would get us lost. I mean, one time we were going somewhere and we ended up in a terrible part of town. I don't know. We were trying to go to a zoo and we ended up at like I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Where were we going? We were going to a zoo and we had to.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Like th 40 50 miles away or something.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

It's true. Yeah. It was like an hour and a half backtracking.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yeah. Because we had to go all the way back and then on the other side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Well, so here's the thing. If I embrace the reality that I'm terrible at navigation and directions. And and it used to be a point of contention, you would get frustrated, and I would get frustrated because I don't want to get us lost. Right. But there's a moment where we had a conversation and I said, look, I'm not good at this.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

This is not my strongest thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

I'm never going to be good at this. And so we need to change our expectations. The reality is I'm terrible at this. And you expecting me to be good at it, it's not possible.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Well, and that that went along with like my mental model growing up, which was the good the person because this is before GPS and everything. The person in the co-pilot seat was the navigator. So I had assumptions about well, if you're if you're the navigator, then you shouldn't get us navigate us to the right spot, right? Yeah. So it it it like it's that place where our two dysfunctional mental models overlapped. And that overlap was the conflict.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Right?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

And so But we resolved the conflict.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

And we resolved it by acknowledging the reality of the situation, which was I can input the now we have nav in the car, I can input the place, I show you which possible routes, you tell me which one, you click on it, and then I cue you of the directions ahead of time. And that is a good solution. Now we don't have any issues because we're playing to my strength, which is I can read other people's directions, right? I mean, that the truth in that, had we not, had I not said, hey, I'm never gonna be good at this, which is the reality situation, we could have been arguing or having problems with that every time we take a road trip.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah. That's a form of love reality of like, hey, this is not something I'm that's really my shtick, and also I have no interest in it being my shtick. Like, I I mean you obviously could get good at it, but you're you're like not interested.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

I don't think I can. I would try it. I'm terrible at geography, but the point is it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Like it's your choice to be good at something or not, or whatever. I mean it doesn't have to be an issue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

And you can get me anywhere because you know all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, so that that's that's you know, making sure that you first it's it's a little bit almost of a paradox because it's like first, the most important thing is your mental models. But then your mental models are the least important thing because actually what's really important is are they in alignment with reality? And that's the love reality loop, right? So you might think that somebody intends something, but what if you're wrong? And if that that thought is creating all this emotion before you found out whether it was intended or whether, you know, then then you're just kind of circling in your own stuff stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah, but the hard part of that is you have to let go of the of the desire or the need to be right.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

That's important.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Or or your definition of right has to be modified to be most aligned with reality, is right.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Not this is right because it's mine and that is wrong because it's yours. It's there's a reality somewhere in between.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

If we're being honest, the desire to be right is so prevalent in these serious arguments that people have. Right? But but believe it or not, what that is, most of the time, like dollars to donuts, I'd put my money on it nine times out of ten. What that is, is this mental model being so close to your identity that you you can't suffer it being wrong, because if it's wrong, you are wrong. And it being wrong in reality is not the same as you being wrong. Right. Right? But if it's so tied to your identity that you feel wrong, like you're wrong as a person, you're there's something fundamentally wrong about you. That's your identity speaking. Yeah, that's where your ego gets involved. That's why if we can get these mental models to cross this transom of being this is who I am, to this is what I'm thinking. This is the the world that I'm creating in my head, which may or may not resemble the real world. Yeah. And if it doesn't, it's not a big deal, especially if I catch it early, then the whole right thing that causes so many discussions to become like fireball arguments goes away. It just evaporates.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Yeah, and I think one of the things interesting is even just saying this is what I'm thinking and moving to this is how I'm interpreting this.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

So how is Derek interpreting this? So it's like if we that acknowledges that it acknowledges that both of us are building mental models that are approximating something, right? And that somewhere in between the two, maybe a little more on this side sometimes, a little more on that side sometimes, is what's real.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Right? The situation in front of us.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

And that brings up probably one of the other things that's critical in in, I think, the way that we, you know, quote unquote fight. Here's me and here's you. And we use action reaction, and we use a a mental model called the bra quad, which is like this thing and this thing. Um, so this is the action, and then this is the reaction, and then the reaction can go down to an action, and this requires metacognition, and then this action, this reaction, this action leads to a reaction, which can go up to an action. And again, metacognition placed here and metacognition placed here internally is that emotional regulation, awareness of self where you sort of say, Hey, I'm reacting to this. That's not the same as the action.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Right? So the the action might have been he said this. The reaction might be he said this and he and he meant to hurt me. And that is not the same as he said this.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Right? Or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Well, and I would make this dot that you call metacognition. To me, the key to that is just a quick momentary pause. Yeah, slow it down just a little bit, and just think a little bit about how you're thinking and what you're about to do or say.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

This dot's critical.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

And that's how you get from a knee-jerk reaction to, oh.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

The pause dot.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

What are my thoughts? What are my questions? What am I possibly misunderstanding?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Turn that into, hey, let's a question, you know, an exploration or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Get rid of assumptions.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Get rid of assumptions, yeah. Which is part of four agreements. Which is again closing this mental model reality gap uh alignment gap. So RAR quad, which is just the re relationship action, reaction quad, one, two, three, four, is a move that, if you practice it, becomes just fundamental to any relationship, whether you're talking about two people or two ideas or two color combinations or two silos in an organization or whatever, this is the relational structure of a more advanced understanding of of the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

And I think if you do that, then that's powerful. And then the other move that we do a lot, I mean, that we do all the moves a lot, but is perspective circle. And obviously, on any given debate or argument issue, let's call it, you know, there's your perspective, there's my perspective, there's other perspectives.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

So so you know, sometimes it's good to be like, well, I've I've told you my perspective on it, and you've told me your perspective on it. Let's get somebody else's perspective on it. Let's not be, you know, isolated by by our perspectives. So you could have you could think about what other perspectives could we get on it.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Yes. And some of those perspectives are not people perspectives. Yeah, they could be conceptual perspectives. Conceptual costs, research, sustainability, whatever it is we're thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

And then the other the other thing that always comes in handy is is not list, because a lot of times, and this is I can't tell you the number of times that I've seen this with couples and with executives and all kinds of stuff, you know, we have this funny thing where we use the same word, we speak the same language, we're using the same words, so we think we have the same meaning.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

And you can have a whole issue for 10, 20, 30 minutes, even, that ends up being just that you have a different definite definition than I do. So we check in, like, I don't assume when you say something that I know what the words mean. I assume that I have to find out what you mean by the words.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, and I will tend to be off to the races for a split second, and then I'll wait, wait, what did you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yeah, because I have a very How are you defining that?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Because I I I catch myself before I'm all the way down the road, and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, maybe you don't think the way I'm thinking about it. Yeah. And then we check it.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Which is weird, right? Because I think a lot of people do that. A lot of people think, hey, I spent all these years learning English. I learned the definitions, I had flashcards in grade school, I learned the dictionary, I learned all these words and what their meaning was. I've been tested on a bunch of them at some point. So when you say something and you use one of those words, I you know, it makes sense that we would want to be like, oh, well, of course, when you use that word, it means this thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

But that's not really how it. Works. That's how English works.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

But that's not how the brain works. Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Right? And so if you, you know, if you don't start with Laura just said a sentence, I know the English words, I know the meaning of the English words, but I don't know the meaning of the Laura words.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

And I need to know the meaning of the Laura words in order to understand Laura. Because I'm not married to English.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

No.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

I'm married to Laura.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

That's is is not list all the all the time, all day, is what is the, you know, we're using the same information variables, but underneath those variables are different organizational schema that make them mean different things.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

That's right. And being aware of that is the key to a really productive conversation, a successful conversation. Or diverting from an argument to a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Right. So there's one other thing that I think is important about this, and I can imagine people who are listening to it might get the wrong impression that emotions are just pushed to the side. And and I think what's important as part of this is being able to identify when you're in a state of emotion and you need to actually emote and have your emotions that there's always space for that.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

And that there needs to be space for that. So that you don't get into this sort of um hairball where you got emotions and thinkings all confused, and then you're just actually you're not present because you need to just feel what you need to feel. So I don't want people to think that there's no space for that.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah, it's not like Commander Data and and Mrs. Data, you know, like Mrs.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Data. I know, but if there was Maybe there isn't because he's so logical.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Or the fact that he's a robot.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

There wasn't ever an episode where he had a love interest? Really?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

No. There's no Mrs. Commander Dana.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Well, he didn't get married, but think about being like uh almost emotional human like.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

He didn't have a love interest.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

He didn't love interest.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

No, he did actually try having emotions.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

He found them very difficult. He did. Yes, he did.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

He actually struggled with them mightily.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

That's funny.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Um but anyway, I'm I just don't want people to think there's no space or respect for emotions.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

No, I think there is. I think w what I personally try to avoid is having emotions that are that are based on mental model assumptions that turn out not to be true.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

So if if I'm gonna have emotions, I want them to be based on things that are real, not just based on things that I think.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Right? So I'll I will often wait to have emotions, but that doesn't mean uh, you know, that you don't have emotions. I just would wait until I've confirmed I won't have the emotion until I know that the mental model is not just a hypothesis, that it's that it's like a it's a real thing, like it really happened. You're giving me a look.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

That's interesting. I'm wondering if I misunderst I'm wondering if I misunderstood what you said. How are you saying you're you're holding back your emotions until you've confirmed that what you think is true?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Like I again, I hate to use this example, but it's the one I always go to is like if somebody came up to me and said your dog died, I would immediately want you know, I would be close to emotion. But I would want to go and I wouldn't believe it yet.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I just wouldn't. I wouldn't believe it until I saw it. I would and then I would have emotion if my dog died. I would have tons of emotion and and uh and I would be, you know, I would have all the emotions that I need to have, but I wouldn't have them before I knew.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

I would absolutely have them before I knew. I would. I'd cry and then I'd confirm. And then either cry because I'm sadder that it's actually true.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Or I'd cry happy because it wasn't true. But I don't know if that makes me strange. I would probably react to the sentence.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Well, I do I think we all react to the sentence, but in that react, I wouldn't act until I knew.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Because I wouldn't necessarily believe it. It's like, you know, like there's all kinds of ways that it could be untrue.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

I mean, there's like 50 dogs in our area. How does how does somebody know it's my dog? True. Some policeman says That's true.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

You know.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

I just think it's it's it's interesting that you can kind of like put a little hold on your expression of the emotion until you've confirmed.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Well, it's like the same reason why they walk people in to see the body, right? Because they're like, let's make sure this is true. Right, but what if what if you you're like, that's not phyto?

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Right, but if you say that's a good example. Because many times you're told that somebody has passed or something has passed, and you you feel that sadness, and then it's still later that you actually identify that person.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah, see, I would say I wouldn't feel the sadness yet. See, that's I would feel like, oh shit, that would suck.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

That's really interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

If that's true, that would suck.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Yeah, see, I would I that would be terrible. I would be different. I would cry. That's interesting how we would process that differently.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

But then if you cried and you had all of those emotions and then you found out that it wasn't true, then you would just have more emotions?

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Happy ones.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

But all of that was based on like not real.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Yeah, but that's it, but that's also an extreme example, right? That's an extreme example.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

It's really not though, if you think about I mean it is extreme in that it's death, but it's not that extreme if if you s if you think this person did this on purpose, and then and then you're so mad about it. And then like two days later you find out it they totally didn't. It was some comedy of errors or some, you know, totally understandable situation.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Which happens like all the time in my world.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

You know, that I would feel like for two days I was deluding myself.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

See, that one makes more sense to me. I think it's the dying dog that's hard for me.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah, you can't separate it. The death thing is hard.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

I have my own problem with stuff about the death thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

But but needless to say, it illustrates the point that there, you know, A, that you can take that moment to separate out before you react, you act. It also reinforces that there is space for the emotions.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

The emotions are still necessary, valuable.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

I mean, I know in our household, there are times when one of us, usually me or the kids, sometimes you, but I'll say, I'm having one of those days. Yes. I'll say I'm having one of those days. Yes. And usually it's when I'm like really exhausted. When I'm really exhausted, I have a hard time like regulating my emotions. And I'll say to everybody, hey guys, today's the day.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Today's the day, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Like, this is the day that if you say even the one thing, I'm gonna cry. You know, and but that's good. Yeah, and our kids have been encouraged to do that too.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

So, you know, you give that space for showing up as you are, not having to suppress your emotions.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah, I kind of realize like I kind of treat the universe almost like the internet, like social media, you know. It's like when you hear anything on social media, you don't immediately go, that's true. You go, if that's true, if that's true, that's concerning. You know, if that's true, I've got issues with it. If that's true, that's upsetting. But it's it's always like uh there's always a pause because you just never know. Like there's so much craziness.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

No, I think that's right. Like sometimes I'll something will happen and you'll you'll say, Oh, is it this or that? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I have to talk to that person, I have no idea. Exactly. You know?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Like if I if I'm sitting on a phone call and somebody doesn't show up, I'm like, well, I don't immediately assume they're blowing me off. I'm like, maybe their dog died. Yeah, maybe their calendar was a million things. There's a million reasons. I'm not gonna make it personal about me and exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

So to Kevin's question, yes. Does DSRP change conflict?

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

In particular, intimate relationship conflict, yes. Massively, 100%. Hundo P. I think it would a humdo P.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

I said Hundo P communated.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah, that was good. Stole your line. Nice. I th I think it would be very hard to communicate effectively, especially in supercharged or hypercharged, you know, things that are meaningful to you are more are more important to you, or you know, I think it would be very hard without without having some kind of common set of of understandings about how you do things. Yes, and the other yes, and the other thing I was thinking Which is culture, by the way, happening in a dyad.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Shared mental models.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

But here's the thing, people who are listening might think, oh, but that's really easy because we both live and breathe all of this all the time. But here's the thing. Even if you're in a relationship and somebody isn't well versed in that, you can speak into this without them even realizing it. So you can be in a conversation with somebody and say, wait a minute, what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

What how are you thinking about this? What's your interpretation of this? Let's slow it down. Like I'm gonna slow it down and take this moment. You know, it doesn't mean that I mean, we're obviously us and we're well trained in all of this and we know it. But even, you know, when I'm talking to other people who not know nothing about this, I am reminding myself to slow it down, check their mental model.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

They have a mental model that hasn't been checked yet, so they're gonna be more emotionally dysregulated, you know, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Or somebody comes to me in a very emotional state, and I'm like, I let them have their emotions, I say, no, what were you thinking at the moment that you started to feel that? Like what was happening? What were you thinking about? And then, you know, so it it's not that you and I have this, you know. I mean, we know we know this more than others, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't work for people.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

No, if you're if you're the only one that's doing it, it'll still help. It'll still help a lot.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

There you go. Tips from the Cabreras.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Is that it?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

That's a rat.