The Transformative and Healing Journey of Indigenous Tattoos with Ecko Aleck

#003 What happens when ancestral markings and tattooing become an intimate part of a healing journey? This episode takes you on a deeply transformative quest with our special guest, Ecko, an Indigenous artist who utilizes tattooing as a means of survival, self-expression, and healing. She generously shares her firsthand account of discovering her passion for art, preparing for, receiving, and the profound impact of her full body tattoo, underscoring the vital role of breath medicine during this process.
 
 We also delve into the sacred aspect of this practice and the creation of safe spaces for healing. The discussions center around the profound role of ancestral medicine and the significance of internal work by the practitioner. We also explore the power of gatherings for traditional tattooing and the sense of community they nurture among practitioners. Our journey gets even more exciting as we explore Ecko’s passion as the founder of Sacred Matriarch Productions Media, discussing an innovative approach to business models that aims at decolonization and future inclusivity.
 
 In this episode, you will also hear Ecko’s powerful story of embracing Indigenous traditions and practices for self-love and healing. Ecko recounts the transformation experience after receiving a full body Nlaka’pamux Blackwork tattoo, which helped shape her self-image and acceptance. We also explore the significance of setting boundaries and the concept of a decolonized relationship with time that leads to enhanced productivity and self-care. Be prepared for a whirlwind of inspiration and enlightenment, as we discuss the power, heritage, and transformative impact of Indigenous tattoos, ancestral markings, and more.

I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work. 

Check out Ecko's work at:
Instagram @sac.red.medicine

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts 

Transcript

Ecko : 0:00

In my early teen years I had started to self-harm, and my mom tried to redirect that and show me ways that I could utilize that same sourcing for pain, but make it art, and so she brought me to get my very first tattoo at 13.

Dion: 0:17

The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kaszas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Nlaka'pamux professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marketer. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Nlaka'pamux skin marking practice over a decade ago Out of help supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists and cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.

Ecko : 1:02

Yadikshin Wenwen, heksh Kwen and Jauhot and Shkwesh Kauaiyat. My ancestral name is Kauaiyat. My English name is Ecko. I am from the Nlaka'pamux Nation Grizzly Bear Clan, raised with the Shishok Nation and currently living on the unceded ancestral lands of the Pentlatch people.

Dion: 1:18

I'd just like to ask you to tell the story of the journey that brought you here. You know to be talking with me. Oh, my goodness where do I even?

Ecko : 1:28

start. Okay, so I come from? I'll just start by acknowledging that I am the daughter of a residential school survivor and cycle breaker for my two young children. My childhood brought me to places of reaching for art for the sake of sanity and survival, living in a very angry home, and in my early teen years I had started to self harm, and my mom tried to redirect that and show me ways that I could utilize that same sourcing for pain but make it art, and so she brought me to get my very first tattoo at 13. She lied and said I was 16 and didn't really care. She's like this needs to be done. You need to understand what's possible, and I think that kind of paved the way of like what was coming down the road. It really showed me what's possible in utilizing pain to support the emotional healing that we are craving as indigenous like, especially indigenous youth.

Ecko : 2:49

Through my journey in learning to find my own identity and getting back in touch with culture after trying to run away from it for many years, I had several different tattoos and began to realize that I wanted to work with an indigenous artist, particularly an indigenous artist from my nation, and you, dion, were the one that kept coming up when I was in this search and I'm like, cool, I really want to get a tattoo from him. I really want to like learn from him, spend time with him. But you were on the other side of the country and it was just like, all right, not sure how that's going to happen, just going to throw it out there into the universe and let them do their thing. And then what? Two years ago saw your call for applications for the Insulkaatmak Black Work Project and was like, yep, this is it. This is that moment.

Ecko : 3:50

And in that application process I went through and shared bits of my story and the questions that you had asked, but in the very bottom you had what part of your body are you hoping to get tattooed? And without even thinking, it was just like an automatic response. I circled full body and then I was like, wait, what am I doing Seriously? Are we doing this? Is this actually happening? I was like, yeah, there's nothing else there that makes sense to me. That's it. And so I submitted my application and was just like, okay, if he responds, then we are on a serious transformation journey, which I knew was coming anyways, but I didn't understand the depths of it. That would happen through that process.

Dion: 4:44

Wow.

Dion: 4:45

So we have to have a big shout out to mom for starting that journey, knowing those things, those intuitions are super important to acknowledge and when I think about the journey that we've had together, it's been such a joy for me because of the way that you're able to articulate the experiences that you're going through, because, of course, everyone who goes through getting work has some type of transformational experience, but they aren't able to articulate it in that way and I would argue that that's probably because of the work that you've already done previously in all of the things that you do in spoken word and performance. Yes.

Dion: 5:35

And I would also say some of the healing journeys that you've already been on yourself, giving you some of those tools and that language to speak about it. So I just lift you up in that experience of. It's been a gift, that has been a gift for me in doing the work with you. Thank you. So I just have to lift you up and acknowledge that as we move forward.

Ecko : 6:00

Thank you so much.

Dion: 6:02

So, as we kind of started down that road of the Intlacat Mac bodysuit, I'm just going to ask you what was that experience like for you, stepping into, you know, into getting that full bodysuit work started you? Know, think back to in the shoe shop, when you came to the little cabin and you know that first time that you came in and we started that work, what was that?

Ecko : 6:29

like for you. I knew the themes of transformation were floating around me and I had physically worked to prepare my body a bit to the best of my ability and my knowledge at the time and I definitely felt like I walked in with a tool basket of like okay, I know how to utilize breath medicine. I had Billie Jean there for the first session, which was, I think, a game changer in helping me to identify what I need around me and then voicing those things. So that first session helped me. I'm now used the language of like. I'm a fussy tattoo receiver right.

Ecko : 7:18

Like I'm a bit of a princess. I need all the things around me, but it's also helped me to voice those things out in the world to have like actually I'm uncomfortable with that. I need this, this, that and that for this space to be safe for me. So it was probably a foundational piece of what I am now speaking about in the creation of safe and sacred spaces.

Dion: 7:47

Yeah yeah, you know I did some digging around last night just to kind of see you know some of the stuff that you know. I had no idea you know some of the things that you had done, so it was really nice to take that opportunity to, you know, force myself to look at some of that stuff and it was it was valuable and that was one of the things I wanted to bring forward.

Dion: 8:10

You know, and just talk to you about those ideas that you have around medicine, tools and technology and then coupled with sacred and safe spaces, so would you like to explore that a little bit?

Ecko : 8:26

Yeah, absolutely. So I was taught that everything we need is already around us in the natural world. Right, as Indigenous folks, we learn to work with the land, not against it or over it. There isn't like a power over, there is power with, and everything on that land and in our waters is either medicine tools or technology. And so I looked at those models of being in reciprocity and understanding and now utilize those models, as how am I showing up with medicine tools and technology in everything that I'm doing? How am I utilizing the things around me? So, even like, as we're using microphones, those are tools that we're using to share medicine. Right? Yeah, totally yeah. So it's helped me to find the language to decolonize my world and be able to visualize new ways of being grounded with ancestral ways of knowing, and those were kind of like my initial pieces that helped me to find that language, but also begin to explore okay, what does land-based models of all being look like?

Ecko : 9:54

And anytime I am out on the land, I feel like I'm held in this just like ancestral blanket. I feel like I'm just cradled by the earth. That, to me, is feelings of safety. How do we bring those feelings, those understandings, into spaces that we are holding. We can do anything to try and say we are creating a safe space, but if we have not done the internal work to be a safe space within ourselves, people will feel it the moment they walk in the door. So if I'm not utilizing my own medicine tools and technology to feel safe within myself and create safety around my immediate surroundings, anyone who walks through my door is going to feel it. So in the internal work that I've done in dealing with my own ugly shit, people can feel when they walk in and I've created a safe and sacred space. They can feel the energy that has gone into the design of this space and that starts at the very foundation of who. Who is holding it and how are we holding it.

Dion: 11:06

Cool, you know that brings a few different. You know, just maybe tug on a few of those threads that you know came forward and one of those, I guess, would be maybe exploring, when you think about the work, what is it, above and beyond the work that you've done internally or I haven't done internally or practitioner has done internally, what are some of the things that some of the tools that we need, or some of the things that we need to provide to allow for that sacred and safe space as a practitioner, as a, you know, ancestral medicine marker?

Ecko : 11:47

That brings me to our four sacred bodies our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing. I always start with the physical. If people are not physically feeling safe in a space, then the rest won't even. They won't even get there, they won't even be considered so physically. How are we designing sacred spaces? How are we designing safe spaces that people can step into? That is what you did in this Black Work project, I think, even by removing it from a tattoo shop and, you know, having a cabin right, whereas, like you know, there's a kitchen there. You can go outside if you need to, if you need to, there's a couch you can lay down if you need to. All of our basic human needs are met within that space. And when I am working with people as a facilitator, if our basic human needs are not met, then we are automatically reacting through our trauma instead of responding from the heart.

Ecko : 12:54

So that physical is the number one important piece and I felt that in our very first session, which helped me to go okay, I can do this, I can do this whole journey, I can fall apart here, I can just be a complete mess, I can cry, I can like totally check out. And I remember in that first session, I was like shaking and crying and there were like things coming through as you were working on my leg and you just held your hand on my ankle, you tethered me and that simple act of like intuition for you helped me to stay. So that's like emotional understanding, right? Emotional understanding of the mental journey I was fighting within my body, of what's happening within me and around me. I have past memories that are flooding through. So, yeah, that physical space is so, so important. The mental tools to be able to speak and process, which is another thing that you had held for me, is like I'd be like I'm having this random thought, we're just gonna talk about it now, right, and we would go down these rabbit holes of being able to like just move through all of those pieces. I also brought journals with me because I am a lover of words and I would you know if I had a spoken word piece that would come out afterwards, I would allow myself to write that out so I could go to bed that night and get a good sleep.

Ecko : 14:37

Having Billie Jean for that first session, there was an emotional connection of just feeling safe and seen and understood. She was able to pick up on things that I needed before I knew I needed them, and even when I wasn't understanding like I don't know what it is I just like need some sort of help. She's like here is some essential oils on a paper towel. Oh, that's exactly what it is. And so then you begin to just open up your heart space when you are feeling understood by the people around you, you're feeling seen, you're feeling held in that process, and then it becomes safe to heal. Yeah.

Ecko : 15:22

When our physical, mental and emotional beings are cared for. That's our human self. Yeah. It allows our spirit to come through. And that's when I would have all sorts of messages, downloads, visions, and I would share those with you in our process of like this is what I'm seeing, this is what's coming to me, this is what I'm being told, or I'm stuck and I need a break so I can process what's happening? Yeah, definitely.

Ecko : 15:52

Right, yeah, so all of those, all of those make up that whole process of a safe and sacred space to heal.

Dion: 16:02

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of cool. It's just bringing back memories of that experience because, similar to your own process of how you develop the markings that each person gets for me is based on those stories and then sometimes it is just an intuition. Like this pattern needs to be here.

Ecko : 16:22

Yes, I don't know why.

Dion: 16:23

And in some cases it was even. I don't even really know the full meaning of this pattern, but it needs to be there. And then, through those conversations, you'd be like, hey, this is what has been going on, or this is what I've been thinking, this is what has been shared with me, and I'd be like, ah, that's why that pattern belonged there, because it was connected to that thing that you needed, that even I didn't know that you needed it just was supposed to be there, and so that's part of that power, of this work that we do.

Dion: 16:56

So, yeah, it was kind of cool to. So I guess in that sense I was learning in that experience with you as I was going through because, part of this process. Nobody has been doing this type of work in our community or in communities connected to us, and so it's all that learning experience. So, yeah, it was pretty cool to understand that and be able to think about it and go ah and then, I guess, explore it with you, because I'm like hey, that's cool.

Dion: 17:31

Or next time we'd come together I'd be like, ah, this pattern actually could mean this and this.

Ecko : 17:37

Yeah, and I'd be like, oh yeah, and here's how that connects to that thing, and like all of it makes sense. Yeah, that's so cool.

Dion: 17:43

eh yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's so powerful in terms of you know. I think it'll be valuable for people listening, and part of the reason to do this podcast for me is I didn't have teachers and mentors when I started, and I would always say that my mentors were people that I, you know indigenous folks like Keone or Julie or whoever would be on a documentary film or a.

Dion: 18:12

YouTube video. You know I'd be like, ah, those are my mentors, because they taught me lessons, and so I want this podcast to be similar for those young ones who are coming up and just getting into the work, and so I think those things that you shared about creating that safe space and those sacred spaces will help people to start to develop their protocols for how to ensure that a person is, you know, feeling physically safe you know a blanket you know water, all of those snacks, whatever people need you know.

Dion: 18:46

and then also, I think important it brings to mind that you know people in the process of asking people to come into your space, helping them to understand hey, you may need a blanket, you may need this, you may need that, you know these are things to think about when you're coming in. So, yeah, I think those are important to bring forward and highlight for other practitioners who are coming forward.

Ecko : 19:10

Hmm, I think having the experience of doing a full body suit prepared me to be the practitioner I am now, which I was not expecting to step into. I was like shy and keeping it hidden and away and was like, oh, maybe I'll just tattoo my sister for the rest of her life, but through that process, you offered this incredible mentorship and teachings as you were tattooing me. So I had. I feel like it was just this whole basket of an experience of feeling, experiencing, healing, learning, observing and then taking all of that and going okay, how do I want to hold the space now based on that, Because that was such a unique experience that I want everyone to understand is possible with tattoo medicine, right?

Ecko : 20:07

There's so much that's possible. I'm a completely different person than who I was when I first stepped foot in there. Wow.

Ecko : 20:18

Yeah, Now I utilize a similar process in designing other people's tattoo medicine, their medicine markings, in trusting the ancestral connection of my ancestors and their ancestors that the markings will come through, They'll show me where they want to be, how they want to be. I draw it on and I ask them how does this feel? I've rarely had maybe had someone say, oh, maybe just a little bit bigger. But the placement, the meaning, the markings, all of it, they're like this is amazing. This is more than I was expecting. That's been a whole process in itself of learning to trust my itty bitty, shitty committee upstairs is like you're doing it wrong.

Ecko : 21:09

It's not going to be good enough, so that would probably be. My next tool is trust. If, as someone receiving the medicine steps in and they don't trust the practitioner, that's it's not going to work. Yeah. If a practitioner is holding that space and isn't able to be in relationship with the person who is stepping foot in, then it's also going to feel weird right. Like there needs to be this like reciprocal space within, like it's ceremony to me I go into like a meditative space and my eyes are all weird afterwards.

Ecko : 21:48

It's like I'm channeling, and so I'm working on learning how to explain that, how to articulate that to people, that this is very much a ceremony practice to me and I invite you into that space, I invite you to be yourself, I invite you to tell me what you need at every moment, and we'll just pause and we'll create the space for you to have your needs met. Yeah.

Ecko : 22:12

And then we'll continue when you're ready. And the channeling process has been so, so powerful and beautiful. In seeing what comes through people's bodies, I'm like it's not me yeah, definitely, it's like it's already there, it's already on your body and my job is to just help it come through. It's just to breathe life into that.

Ecko : 22:40

And I think you helped me to understand that with these markings that you had done, our basket markings, where they look like they're already in our body, right Like we're just getting a glimpse of what's there and that helped me so much to understand that I'm just the channel Definitely.

Dion: 23:00

Yeah, it's kind of cool to when I think about that process of you know, because I never intended, on mentoring you, to become a medicine marker. But, you know, I think it's really following that intuition and those teachings of our elders and our community where, you know, a lot of times people will say, oh well, why aren't you teaching me? And the reality is, is that we all don't have the aptitude, say, as a storyteller, why would you ask someone to be a storyteller who has bad memory?

Dion: 23:36

Right, it just doesn't make sense, or why would you ask somebody to be a firekeeper if they didn't have the aptitude to do those things? And so it's just acknowledging that, hey, that intuition's there. You know, you've taken the steps to be prepared to be in that place, and so it's really a testament to the work that you have done to get to that place, right, because I just recognized, okay, this person needs, you know, this is one of the gifts that they already possess, and so let's take the steps to encourage that forward.

Dion: 24:11

And so I would just say that you know, it's important for us to take those lessons from our ancestors and do those things in that decolonial way, you know, because I've done things in a multitude of different ways in terms of teaching and guiding people in mentorship. But it was really nice to be able to take those lessons from our ancestors and just recognize, hey, this person, you know, this is their gift, so let's figure out how to bring that forward. Yep, one of the things we kind of like skirted it came back to it a few different times is something I think there's something really powerful, especially when you think about tattooing, but also with big work you know a bodysuit, a back piece, you know a chest piece, whatever and it's something about pain.

Dion: 25:03

And so I would just like to explore that with you a little bit in terms of, you know, the pain aspect. A lot of times in our world we try to make ourselves so comfortable and at every single moment we try to move away from pain you know when I think about well, if you go to do exercise, yes, that's painful, but it has a benefit for you, right?

Dion: 25:30

So, yeah, what has been your experience, or what comes up for you when I bring up this combination of the word pain and its connection to the work that we did in creating your bodysuit?

Ecko : 25:46

One of my favorite questions that people ask me is about pain, because it opens up this conversation. When I was tattooing my auntie, she asked me how did I numb out the pain? And I said I didn't. I sat with it. I asked it what it needed. I explored it with. They leaned all the way in with curiosity. Sometimes I would laugh and cry at the same time. Sometimes I would like.

Ecko : 26:12

I checked out a few times, and when I did, I got sick and so I began to learn how to listen to my body and what it was needing. I'm just because it's coming up for me and we're in the same room that we were in when we were working on my wings and we were shading. I got all like congested. I felt like I couldn't breathe through my nose anymore.

Ecko : 26:42

Breathing is what was keeping me sane through the pain, and so I started to panic a little bit and I don't know anything about pressure points or anything like that, but I just intuitively brought my hand to my face and was like holding this area, and then I was moving it around and just focused on this like breath cycle, and then I started to cry, just cried and cried and cried and cried and it all came out and that was fine and I could breathe. I was even joking with you after that Everything's fine, it's fine, I can deal with the pain now, right. And so that pain and the way that we are reacting I'm saying reacting because it's an automatic response to go oh, or like squirm away from it, right, you're like Nope, not dealing with this, no, thank you. Our automatic reaction is to just like no, thank you. When we hold the space for ourselves to respond to it. Instead, we allow it a voice and then we can utilize our medicine tools and technology to move that pain through and release it from our bodies. Yeah.

Ecko : 28:00

That's the power of medicine markings. For me, it changed my life.

Dion: 28:06

Yeah, it's pretty like. It's like almost mind boggling, because the reality is is that you know, our ancestors use this as a medical epistemology or a medical knowledge in, you know, in the ancestral times, right. Ever since you know, we've had medicine markings. They've been used. One of the reasons and one of the purposes was for medicine, right? And so it's just now we're becoming to understand how fucking smart our ancestors were. You know, like part of the colonial project has been to make us think we are savages to think that you know our ancestors weren't smart and intelligent.

Dion: 28:51

But you know these things that are coming forward and now you know academics are researching them and understanding that. You know they boosts the immune system and all of these wonderful and powerful things. But our ancestors knew that this was useful as a medical process. Mm-hmm, you know, it's such a cool thing to realize that when I realized that I was like oh damn.

Dion: 29:21

One thing you mentioned before we move on to your own work as a practitioner. You mentioned in your one of your social media posts that through this process of getting a full body into the Copmick Blackwork tattoo or skin marking, was that you learned to love your skin. Mm-hmm, what was that about?

Ecko : 29:49

As I can speak for myself, but I know many others who feel the same. As an indigenous woman, I have grown up feeling like I needed to be blonde and blue eyed and skinny to be accepted into society. I've been chewed up and spat out through the modeling industry and the acting industry, have had many, many different experiences of even in the music industry people telling me who I should be, how I should look, what I should do, how I should speak, how I should sing all of those things. And all of that feeds into our internal dialogue of how I'm speaking to myself, and so I've had a really unfriendly internal dialogue for most of my life due to the capitalist society that we live in. That tells me I'm not good enough because I'm an indigenous woman and I knew that before we started. That was my intention going in.

Dion: 30:56

I got way more than I intended, but that was my initial intention is.

Ecko : 31:01

I wanted to be comfortable in my body. I wanted to love my body exactly as it is, and I could frickin walk down the street naked. Right now I am so content with the shape I'm in, the ways that I hold my body. I learned how to be comfortable in my skin, but it actually took me being really, really uncomfortably, like physically uncomfortable in it.

Ecko : 31:33

First, and I think a piece that isn't always talked about that I would like to speak about is the shedding that happens after you get a tattoo, and so I went through a full body snakeskin shed and that piece for me was so transformational in like I would have the intention, with the skin pieces that we're shedding of, like I'm letting this go, I'm letting this story go, that I am not good enough, that my body is not good enough, that I am not tall enough, that I am, whatever all of those things. The not enoughness shed with that skin, and it's a different feeling now to show up in every space and go no, I'm good enough, I'm good the way I am. It's a huge deal, yeah, it's powerful.

Dion: 32:32

Thank you for sharing that. I know that it's challenging sometimes to speak about those things, especially understanding those ways that you've been chewed up and spit out, so I appreciate you sharing that with me and allowing people to hear that. I think it's also a powerful testament to other indigenous women and two spirit folks and men who are having similar feelings about their own bodies. And so, yeah, it's powerful to stand up and to say, no, this is who I am and I'm comfortable being here. And it's really that byproduct those feelings of shame and guilt and not feeling enough is all byproducts of, like you said, that capital system. And so figuring out ways to allow the shedding of those stories is important, and I just love the way that you brought forward that metaphor the shedding of the skin, letting it go. And not only the shedding of the skin but the shedding of those stories, all of those times that somebody said something or that you've seen on TV or in a magazine each time that those flakes were falling.

Dion: 33:59

It was those things shedding from your experience and I just like to say, as you were speaking, one of the things that came to mind for me was watching you on stage here at the what's that? The Nanaimo Theater right, doing your multimedia presentation, and I was just like, wow, those markings they've always been there.

Ecko : 34:24

Yeah, right.

Dion: 34:26

Like I couldn't. It was actually kind of weird going through your social media looking at you before. I know, I was just like whoa, Like I just couldn't. I can't imagine Imagine you without them now, yeah.

Ecko : 34:41

Right.

Dion: 34:42

So it's pretty cool to see that as well.

Ecko : 34:45

One of my favorite things that I hear from people is like you look like a superhero. Like yeah, it's my armor. Yeah. That's my protection and I think that's what's going on recently and, like everything that is not serving this next part of my journey is literally physically falling away, and I really believe that it is like an energetic armor of protection that's helping me on my journey.

Dion: 35:12

Yeah, that's cool. So I guess there's a few different things that I was thinking about. One was maybe talking a little bit more about the you know being a practitioner, you know, because we've talked a little bit about getting the markings, but I know you're just kind of a junior practitioner, so just stepping into that and just acknowledging that. So you know, people don't come forward and say what are you talking about? I think, every voice.

Dion: 35:49

You know, this is the one thing I've been sharing is. You know, we sit in a circle because every voice is important, and so for me it's irrelevant whether somebody is just learning you know, they've been doing it a week, a month, a year, two years, it doesn't matter.

Dion: 36:05

To me, each voice is important and I think there will be lessons that will come forward from people who are just beginning their journey, as compared to those people have been at it a decade or two, you know. So yeah, just would you like to number one, just talk about your experience as a practitioner, something you feel like sharing, maybe some of the things that you find important and powerful for those who are coming after. And then I also wanted to put forward you started using machine, so just putting those both out there and you can grab either one and explore them as you wish.

Ecko : 36:44

And if you're like, ah, we're not going there, that's cool too. I think the most impactful thing for me as a practitioner in my learning journey has been being around other practitioners Like it was one thing for me to sit and learn with you as you're tattooing me, and you gave me some opportunity to practice some things. But it wasn't until we were like together in merit at the first awakening or DNA gathering, where I was like, oh, what are you using for that? What do you have over there? How are you storing that? What are you doing for this, right? So I was like I'm just going to really learn in the moment. Which is how I learn best is hands on, in the moment, like I have.

Ecko : 37:25

Keith asked me to tattoo his face and it was the first facial marking I had ever done and I was like shaking and sweating and ready to like throw up, but that trust was there. It was an environment of that nurtured that learning that allowed me to like push past those comfort zones that I was in as a practitioner, and each gathering that brings us back together again. We're now doing that to each other of like oh what, what new equipment do you have? What ink are you using Right, like it's just this, like beautiful, beautiful thing. So that's been my absolute favorite learning environment, because quite often I feel like I'm alone out here and I don't have a lot of people to bounce these things off of other than through text or email right, so that's been my absolute favorite environment. That's also where I learned how to tattoo with machine on my fiance's neck.

Dion: 38:25

Perfect spot to learn.

Ecko : 38:32

And yeah, same, same, like my. I can't say enough about the importance of mentorship in anything we're doing. It doesn't matter what new skill we're learning when we have someone who knows more than we do and we get to sit down with them, when we get to sit beside them and work with them, when we get to just be in the same room as them and be like, hey, I'm stuck, what do I do about this? Or I'm not sure about this thing, or I'm second guessing myself. That environment is so beneficial to the learning journey that we are on for the rest of our lives.

Dion: 39:08

Yeah, big time. Yeah, it's kind of cool that you said that, because I have been here in my notes the what is the impact of the reawakening our DNA to two gatherings and other public events, and so, you know, you kind of brought that forward and I would also agree with you.

Dion: 39:24

you know, when I think back to my own journey, you know, one of those turning points for me was going to Aotearoa, to going to New Zealand and meeting practitioners from across the globe. You know, because it was myself and Nahan and Nikita and we're all from different nations, we all lived in different places. You know, those were the folks doing the work here on Turtle Island in the beginning, and so going to New Zealand and meeting people from Tahiti and Japan and, you know, new Zealand and Samoa and the Cook Islands and all these different people, was so powerful, and so it's kind of cool to see that happening now here. You know, for our people, you know, and it's, you know, it makes my heart happy to see those gatherings and it also makes my heart happy knowing that I don't have to be there right, that that work is going forward and that important stuff is happening and it's going in a good way.

Dion: 40:26

So it's kind of cool to hear you bring that forward. You know just that synchronicity I suppose Going along with that is. You know, we talked about doing your back and we had a film crew come right and you had, so you're starting a feature length documentary. Yes. And part of that, I understand, is you tattooed your dad.

Ecko : 40:52

I did tattoo my dad. I gave him his very first tattoo.

Dion: 40:56

What was that?

Ecko : 40:56

like 66 years old. Yeah, it was really powerful and for it to all be captured on film was just. I mean, I wouldn't expect anything less with my dad. He's the superstar. He's just like go big or go home. He's already home, so he's going to go big.

Ecko : 41:20

But it was a really, really beautiful process and I explained to him that for me, four rounds is generally when I really start to see the ink and the lines come together in the ways that I like to see it on folks bodies. And four is very significant to me in ceremony. It is a ceremony practice to me, and so I shared that with him in stepping into that space of ceremony together and he shared a prayer with each round at the same way he would in a sweat lodge. It was so beautiful. And there was a moment and it's actually in the documentary. It's a little piece that was selected we started we hadn't even gotten like halfway through the first round. He's like can't even imagine what you went through, I don't know, and then the look on his face was just like wow.

Ecko : 42:19

But, yeah, it was a really beautiful moment of being cause people kind of know. But once they sit down and they really start to feel the intensity, the ceremony, the ancestral connection, the process, all of that, right. Like when people think about tattoos. They generally don't think about that, and so just to bring him into that world for a little bit of understanding.

Ecko : 42:47

he's always said he's never getting a tattoo, and he reached out to me. I think it was after one of our tattoo gatherings or something. He's like I'm ready. Wow, like cool, okay, that's crazy. Hey, that's so cool. Yeah.

Dion: 43:03

Yeah, it's, you know.

Dion: 43:05

I wanted to bring that forward a little bit because you know it brings forward, you know, part of your introduction you know, being a intergenerational, you know, residential school survivor and then how you are that transformational change maker and cycle breaker for your family, you know. And so it's pretty cool to see that coming full circle in terms of the way that you are impacting not only forward but back right, and I think that that also brings forward some of the important parts of this work of healing as medicine these medicine markings is, you know, yes, we are doing the work for the people to be in, those who are coming, but we're also doing that healing work for those people you know in our generational ancestral past to need that healing in this time and in this present moment.

Dion: 44:05

Absolutely.

Ecko : 44:06

So yeah, I just wanted to bring that forward and to highlight it and point out how cool it is to see that cycle coming you know, that's been some of my favorite moments in our tattoo gatherings or is witnessing our elders walk through the door and come get their first tattoos and usually facial markings too. They're like I'm just gonna wear it loud and proud, and it's amazing to witness. Yeah, my personal life mission and it's only the first half of it, I guess is utilizing my own medicine, tools and technology to support my dad's healing journey so that I am not passing that on to my kids, and that's everything from filmmaking and music and tattoo medicine. You know, I've just managed to bring him into each of those worlds and support him in his own story so that we can work on our healing, so that my children don't have to continue feeling that.

Dion: 45:15

Yeah, it's probably and you know, it's like we have like so many things to talk about because you actually just do so many things. You know, that was one of the things that you know. I just wanted to highlight and maybe we'll get into some of that, maybe we won't, but you know, you're a CEO of the sacred matriarch, creative, and you, you know, a spoken word poet. You perform in different ways. You know, you've been a model, all of that type of stuff. There's just so much that you do and come forward, and so I, you know, and I also wanted to bring up, you know, your company and give you an opportunity to share a little bit about what you're doing there and some of that cool work, because, you know, this podcast isn't just about tattooing, it's also about all those other things, and I always like to say this work shows up in every part of our being and you know, to just to cut out oh we're just gonna talk about tattooing actually leaves out so much of actually the markings that we're having. How do they?

Dion: 46:26

live and work and interact in the world and how does that transform our businesses, how does that transform our relationships, all of those type of things. So, yeah, just opening that opportunity for you to share whatever you desire to share.

Ecko : 46:41

Awesome. My company because I have been in a transformation process has also been in a transformation process. We love that you bring that up because we are very much two beings walking side by side together. I've been describing it as the sticky, gooey, ugly, disgusting butterfly stage where it's just like in a cocoon and melts into a pile of goo before it comes out of the cocoon and just hangs its wings there for a little bit. So we've been in this transformation phase. I started out thinking I was a production company. That was cute.

Ecko : 47:26

And at the beginning of the journey, because I'm being brought there, I was afraid, as I was afraid to step in to be a practitioner. I was afraid to step in and launch a business. And through meditation, my great-great-grandmother came through. Her name is Shalinaq and gave me the name Sacred Matriarch and I couldn't get the last piece my productions media. What is it, I don't know. And then I came out of the meditation like I don't care, I'm not doing it, it's too scary. Yeah, like too much responsibility, absolutely not Shut it down, forget about it.

Ecko : 48:05

And I picked up my phone and tried to just like mindlessly scroll on Facebook and her photo showed up. The very first thing on my feed was a photo of my great-great-grandmother on I think it was Native American History page. I'd seen it before but I was like, okay, I see you. And yeah, I had never like been drawn to the comments, but I was drawn right to the comments like, all right, let's see what's here.

Ecko : 48:35

And Ronnie Dean Harris he has Inflacutmak ancestry as well. He's a media artist had recently posted I have wax cylinder recordings of this woman. I'm like, okay, yeah, okay, I messaged him and it was within that same day he sent me those recordings. Wow, it was her singing the Skalula song, the owl song, and I was always taught that owls are the messengers of change. We often see them as messengers of death, but with death comes birth. Right, it's a cycle. So there I was it was 2019 looking at a digital photo of my great-great-grandmother and hearing her voice for the very first time and I just bawled my eyes out. I'm like okay, okay.

Dion: 49:25

I'll do this.

Ecko : 49:26

So my entire business has been founded, launched and designed with ancestral grandmother guidance. Every step of the way, and even when I've tried to step away from it and been like I'm too scared, I had a canoe fall on my head and correct me back to my path, like it's been a very, very clear this is the direction you're going and we've got you, so just take the next step. You don't need to see the whole picture. Yeah, and I'm now in a place where I'm starting to see the picture. We are designing and building a digital ecosystem of wellbeing, tools for whole human healing and reclaiming sacred power. And that is through.

Ecko : 50:10

Because I'm a multimedia like artist, crazy artist, with all the things.

Ecko : 50:15

We're utilizing all of those skills that I have to support people's healing at whatever part of their journey they are on and ready for.

Ecko : 50:23

So that might be one little download or later, like I'm not ready to dive in yet, but I'll listen to something or I'll read something. They might be ready for a full learning journey or they might be ready to be in community. I've just applied for a grant and because this podcast is gonna come out later, I'm gonna say, by the time this podcast comes out, I've received the grant to build a mobile I'm calling it a self-sovereign studio space and essentially it is our creative ceremony houses, crossed with a tiny home, crossed with a recording studio and ceremony house that I can travel around to our communities with the gifts that I carry of healing, of creativity, of facilitation and holding that space for our communities, our youth, to move through their own healing journeys in their own ways that they're ready for and support a larger ecosystem that we are building that is essentially like a by indigenous youth, for indigenous youth social enterprise that trains and hires them in this work as well.

Dion: 51:36

Cool, that's exciting, yeah. Yeah remember when we first kind of started, you had talked about it and that's actually cool to see it developing as we've been going through this work together. So, yeah, it's pretty cool to hear about and see. And you know, one of the other things that I thought about is in your social media you talk a lot about decolonizing business models.

Ecko : 52:03

Yes.

Dion: 52:04

So could you speak a little bit about that.

Ecko : 52:06

Yeah, and I also just wanna touch on the word decolonize, because I use it a lot for a lack of better words, and it only focuses on the first half. It's important for us to, yes, step away from the systems that are harming us, but then what? So for the sake of people understanding what I'm speaking about, I'll say it's a decolonize business model. It is a knowledge sharing model as well. That allows me to turn towards land-based models and my entire business.

Ecko : 52:46

I see it as its own being. It has physical, mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing. The physical represents how we move, which is through our leadership, our sacred house and our people. Our mental is how we think, which is through our ecosystem and reciprocal models of respect. Our emotional is how we connect, which is through storytelling and relationship building, and our spiritual is how we thrive, which is through community connection and sacred creativity. That is my business model, and so all of that feeds into just this nourishing way of being within and around, and I think, just to connect, the markings that I carry on my body have just rippled out into these boundaries that I carry as a business of. This is the model that I work within, this is the way that we choose to be in relationship, people who are aligned with those ways we will work with People who are not aligned. And I've gone into things and started them and been like, actually this doesn't work for me. We are not aligned and it's okay. I'm not asking you to change. I'm saying we're not aligned and that's fine.

Ecko : 54:07

It's like totally fine, you stay where you are. I'm gonna keep doing this, but I don't think I would have had the strength with my boundaries without first physically building them with my body.

Dion: 54:21

Yeah, that's so cool to see that, like I said, how the markings, the medicine and the transformation, how did those manifest into our everyday lives? Because that's one of the things I'm working on in an exhibition with the Museum of Vancouver which it'll probably be opening about at the same time this comes out. But it one of the questions that I always have when I look at exhibitions or presentations of indigenous cultural markings is it's just the artifact, just the thing, whether that's your collar or whether that's my palm just the photo of that shows up.

Dion: 55:07

But for me it's also the question of how do these things show up in our everyday lives, when we're out on the canoe, when we're at the grocery store, wherever we are? How do they inform our business models? So it's pretty cool to hear you speak about in that way. It's also cool to understand those synchronicities that happen as we're all going about our lives. Our minds are starting to think in a certain type of way.

Dion: 55:37

So, it's pretty cool to hear that, and when you talk about your decolonized business model, the way that you do business, you also talk a lot about the rhythms and self-care, yes, and so that was one thing that I also wanted to kind of bring forward, because I think it's a unique perspective as compared to a lot of other people, especially in the hustle culture. We got to push ourselves, we got to do, and I would say I'm in that myself and so, yeah, just asking for your perspective there and might help me and it might some help someone else.

Dion: 56:18

But, I think it's important to realize, and for me it's also not only the way that you speak about it, but understanding how it's connected to our ancestors' life cycle, right, so I just wanted to bring that forward.

Ecko : 56:34

Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, rest is revelation. One of the things I started to explore is a decolonized relationship to time, because our entire society is wrapped around time. Time is money, people are money. Right, people's time is money. And when I started to let go of my expectation of the relationship I was in with time and look at how did my ancestors work within the realms of time and space, and when I'm in connection with the spirit world, they are connecting with all the timelines at the same time. They move really fast, they talk really fast because they're like we don't just like catch up, get with it.

Ecko : 57:32

Right.

Ecko : 57:37

And so starting to understand that perception within the human world, I would go okay. So if I am like pushing myself to get a project done or to get a task done and I haven't taken care of myself first, it's going to take me twice as long to get that task done. It's going to take me twice as long to get the project done and I'm going to be banging my head against the desk. I'm going to probably do it like four different times because I'm going to hate it and then try it again. So I've started a practice of putting it away. I call it my marinating time now and I'll go for a walk. I'll have a bath. I'll say to my partner we need to go for a drive up the mountain.

Ecko : 58:20

I'll book an Airbnb and just like go stay not in my house, so I don't have to deal with laundry and dishes right, I'll, just I'll. I have this tool basket that I use of things that support me, to rest, to take care of myself, to lean further in, and when I do that, the production that happens afterwards happens in like a quarter of the time I would have originally given myself. As soon as I started to understand that I was just like it's a part of my contracts, now it's a part of my work. Now Rest is built into my every single day, and not just rest, but like how am I nourishing my body, how am I nourishing my mind, my heart, my spirit? I need to be outside. It's my happy place, and if I'm not outside, then I start to spiral in this like depressive state in my house, in my dark little basement that I have all my work in right.

Ecko : 59:24

Through that I manifested a dog. The dog gets me outside several times a day. She has been like it's non-negotiable right. So she has been central just supporting me to have boundaries of like. No, I'm not booking meetings in the morning anymore.

Ecko : 59:43

And my day is done at three o'clock so that I can step away. I might have some sparkle inspiration time in the evening. So learning my own rhythms within that time and space understanding within decolonizing time, I have been able to say to any partners that I am bringing in with my business, this is how I operate this, and I actually have a write-up that I'll send people they have to sign off on of, like this is my relationship with time. You are not billing me for my time, you're billing me for my energy and my knowledge, and that's huge.

Ecko : 1:00:17

That I think is really missing in our society today is people are reaching out to indigenous folks and wanting to pay them for their time, and I would like to remind them that this knowledge, at one point, was illegal. It exists through me because my ancestors were stubborn as fuck and they held on to this in secret so that they could pass it on. And you want to pay me 50 bucks to come speak to you. No. We need to be paying our elders and our knowledge. Keep everyone indigenous folks for their knowledge, their experience and their energy. It's beyond time, Definitely. Yeah.

Ecko : 1:01:05

The other thing I wanted to speak to is the natural rhythm. So we're here on the West Coast, on Vancouver Island. The natural rhythms that I am learning to observe and be in rhythm with are what's happening around me. So through the winter I'm like I don't want to do anything like out there. I want to be within. I am like internally working on ceremony. I'm internally creating and dreaming and I have my internal world is very busy, but externally I don't want to be connecting and like doing anything crazy, speaking, facilitating all of that. Right, I want to go. How do I build my business? Around those cycles? Because the trees take half the year to rest, right, to go within. We're taught that the medicine of the plants travels through the plants and through the trees, based on the seasons. So in the wintertime the medicine is deep down in the roots and through the spring it starts to travel back up through the branches and out into the leaves the flowers and then, in the fall, it releases and does it all over again.

Dion: 1:02:11

Yeah, that's the one thing realizing the subsistence life cycles of our ancestors. That's what really reminded me of the way that you speak about the rhythms of your business. We're busy in the spring Things are blossoming and the fish are coming and everything we got to go collect this, that and the other thing, and then through the summer harvesting fish and deer, and all of that into the fall, and then finally the snow arrives and then we have time for story.

Dion: 1:02:46

We have time for connecting in our shishkens and our pit houses and all of those things. So, yeah, it was pretty cool to see you reconnecting that business model and the way that you do your work in those ancestral cycles and acknowledging those things. I thought it was pretty powerful, thank you.

Dion: 1:03:08

So I just wanted to acknowledge that and bring it forward so people can start to think about well, how would that, how would my work look different and how would I feel Right, Because part of it is not only the doing the work, but how are you feeling in that work. Yes. Because with anything that we do, whether it's something we love, if we do it too much, if we push ourselves way too much, it no longer becomes something that we enjoy.

Ecko : 1:03:37

Yep Exactly.

Dion: 1:03:38

Yeah.

Ecko : 1:03:38

Burn right out Totally.

Dion: 1:03:42

One thing, as we're kind of coming to a close, I think one thing I wanted to bring forward and kind of highlight as something that's important, that I don't think that's talked about, that I recognize in your own work is also in my own life is the people that support us, and so I just like to offer this opportunity for myself to acknowledge my wife Jane. She does so much. People don't get to see her all the time, as she comes out once in a while, but I just have to acknowledge the fact that I'm here in Qualcomm Beach away from her for such a long period of time. But she is okay with me doing that work and gives me the space to do the stuff that I need to do.

Dion: 1:04:35

So I just have to acknowledge that support, and I also see that with your own partner in terms of traveling, with you taking care of your family when you're doing the work, all of that type of stuff. And so, yeah, I just wanted to highlight that and acknowledge it and bring it forward.

Ecko : 1:04:53

Thank you. It's actually something that I write about in my grant applications when they ask who are my supports or what team do I have around me. It's an essential piece of my work. Is my mom, my sister, my partner my kids right. They're all sacrificing as well.

Dion: 1:05:11

It's not just me.

Ecko : 1:05:12

They're the ones who are impacted the most. When I'm away, or when I'm doing big things, or even when it's exciting, even when they're with me, I'm still focused on something that isn't them, and so I acknowledge that that's challenging, and I'm grateful for my partner as a firekeeper. It's a gift of his to care for fires. And I am a very fiery person.

Ecko : 1:05:44

So, excuse me, yeah, I wouldn't be able to do the things I do without that kind of support and I know it's been tricky and there's been a lot of navigating. What does this mean? How long are you leaving? What is it?

Ecko : 1:06:02

There's been a lot of conversation and growth. That's had to happen for me to step into some of these larger roles and travel further and further away and I'm starting to address folks who are asking me to bring my gifts to them to say I need to bring my family, how are you creating the space for my family? And that's becoming a negotiation in contracts and events and all of those things Like I have to bring my family with me. It's stressful. It's hell sometimes right.

Ecko : 1:06:36

You've got kids running around and going crazy and swearing at people. When I've witnessed what it does for my kids to be in those spaces that we are in as practitioners or I am in as a performer right, there's more movement around community spaces. And those are the spaces I'm saying yes to, because I can bring my kids, because I can bring my family, and they all have roles within that space.

Dion: 1:07:04

Yeah, totally yeah. I think my own experience is also changing and shifting in that way of. You know, I always get offers to do this, that and the other thing, and oh, we want to come film, we want to come do this, all this stuff, but it's always a question of what is that?

Dion: 1:07:23

reciprocity, that's coming and how are you supporting the work? You know, as an independent entrepreneur doing my own thing, I only get paid as a tattoo artist when my butt's in the seat, so I'm giving that time or that energy, all of that stuff away. So how are you compensating? Acting in reciprocity, and I don't think that necessarily always has to be financial, but how is that coming forward? And so, yeah, it's. I think it's an important conversation to bring forward, and one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast as well is acknowledging that I've been on podcasts, I've been in documentary films, I've been on TV shows.

Dion: 1:08:12

you know not to say that to brag but to bring forward the point that I was never paid for any of that time. Right, that's all content that every single person in that production gets paid for. Yep. The camera person gets paid for the director, the producer. You know the network you know every time that they play that that's something that is supporting them. But as an indigenous person who is trying to make a living in this world, I'm giving up all of those things. But there's no sense of reciprocity.

Dion: 1:08:48

So as I move forward you know, currently this podcast is supported through a Canada Council for the Arts grant you know, so that I can pay people, so that we can visit and we can spend time together, because I think it's so important for us to spend time and visit together.

Dion: 1:09:05

But also I have to acknowledge you know the time, the energy, the experiences that you have, the knowledge and the expertise you know that you have created throughout your journey that you're sharing with me and those out in the world, and so that's part of the reason for doing this, and so that maybe, hopefully, all of those who are reaching out to us to give content for their productions will understand that, hey, you got to somehow reach back in and give something back right.

Dion: 1:09:39

Sometimes that's cash, because that's the way of the world, sometimes that's something else you know, so, yeah, I think that's just important to highlight, and one of the reasons I'm doing this is to be able to pay folks to come and acknowledge the time and experience they have.

Ecko : 1:09:56

Yeah, absolutely. It's disruptive. I love it and it's how it should be. It's very they're all very extractive industries.

Dion: 1:10:05

Yeah, definitely, and they also contribute to those feelings of shame and guilt and not feeling enough right. And you know, one of those things that just came forward just looping back was that sense of like being an interloper or being like, you know, not good enough and all of that stuff. And it's so cool to see in your own experience and from your own story of how this work of ancestral skin marking has helped you just to step into that and just say fuck it. You know, it's so cool, thank you.

Dion: 1:10:44

Is there anything else you would like to talk about? Bring forward anything that's been on your heart that you wanted to discuss, or anything.

Ecko : 1:10:53

I think one of my favorite little sparkly things that I've witnessed as stepping into being a practitioner is the impact it has on our children. I have a almost five-year-old and every time we're at a gathering he's like mom, I want a tattoo, and so I'll sit him in the chair and I'll just take a Sharpie and I'll draw something on him Like hey, there you go, there's your tattoo.

Ecko : 1:11:19

I had the opportunity in Flamin territory to provide a space and medicine markings for a young girl as her coming of age, and I don't even fully have the words for that and I love words, but it was so, so powerful to be the person to be able to hold that space and support her in stepping into that next journey and invite her in to that intuitive channeling process of like having we have a conversation and then I say, okay, this is what I'm seeing, what does that mean to you? And having her response to that, and she walked away so proud, so, so proud Her very, very first tattoo. So just witnessing the ripple impacts that this movement, this work, has on our children and what that will mean for them as they grow up into young humans who are voicing their boundaries and their values out to the world and say no, this is who I am.

Ecko : 1:12:28

It's everything I could hope for.

Dion: 1:12:30

Yeah, you know I'm glad you brought that up because it's one of the reasons why I started this work. You know, I had a young friend who, you know, decided to no longer be with us in this plane of existence. You know he decided to exit and one of I realized the power of the story of the revival of ancestral skin marking and other parts of the globe you know, and I thought, you know, this is something that I can do for the people to be, for those people coming out.

Dion: 1:13:04

And when I realized, you know, that was just an intuition. And now that I've been doing the work and researching and doing all of that stuff, I come to understand that, you know, one of the things that have been done to us that makes us feel not enough is the legislating of our identity. You know, the calling down of our ancestors, you know, making us feel like they weren't good enough, that they were less than you know, of course, if they're less than that makes us less than all of those type of things. So, understanding that the part of the power of this medicine is understanding that we are powerful, that our ancestors struggled and prayed us into existence you know, in all of the ways that they did that and celebrating all of those things and realizing that we are enough as indigenous people, as community members and as human beings, and so it's, you know, such a powerful thing to hear you say that. And you know, because that was my intuition, that this is for the people to be, those young ones who are coming, and so to hear you talk about it, you recognize that in your own children. You know that that's a powerful thing and I thank you for sharing that with me because you know I see the impact that this work has been happening, that you know I just thought, oh, this is. But this is, the truth of it is that this work of transforming our bodies through that pain and my friend Gordon Sparks, who's a big ma cultural tattoo practitioner, says you know that blood and pain, sacrifice and you know, transforms the world, not only for ourselves but for those who are coming. It's such a powerful, powerful thing, and so thank you for spending this time with me. You know, sharing your heart and sharing your knowledge, it's been pretty awesome. I've really enjoyed spending this time with you.

Ecko : 1:15:10

Thank you so much for the invitation and to just sit down. It's always good conversations.

Dion: 1:15:15

Awesome. All right, have a good one. We'll see you all next time that you are amazing, that you were loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Head on over to next week's episode, where I interview Nolan Malboff, a Métis artist based in Regina, saskatchewan. We talk about his journey from brokenness to fulfillment, and the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.