#005 When Natalie Standingcloud etches stories into skin, each line is more than art—it's heritage, history, and identity. Today, she grants us a glimpse into her world, where tattoos are a canvas for the Salish and Cherokee stories that run as deep as the ink. As Natalie weaves her personal tale, we travel the threads of her cultural tapestry, learning how a single tattoo can mark the beginning of a woman's journey, serve as an emblem of indomitable spirit, and bind her to the roots that hold her steadfast against the winds of time.
Embark on an emotional ride with us as Natalie recounts the sweat and tears of the Remember the Removal Bike Ride, where the asphalt miles under her wheels brought her face to face with the legacy of the Trail of Tears. Her voice carries the weight of generations, each word a step closer to understanding what it means to be Cherokee in heart and in spirit. As we traverse the realms of acting and comedy with Natalie's experiences, from community theater's embrace to the spotlight with the 1491s and "Reservation Dogs," we see the mosaic of humor and drama that shapes Native American identity today.
Natalie's narrative doesn't end at the edge of the stage; it extends to the catwalks of New York Fashion Week, where her strides echo the pride of Cherokee artists. Her journey of self-discovery, which challenges the notion that one must excel in a singular creative field, paints a portrait of a woman whose essence is mirrored in every facet of her work. Join us as Natalie Standingcloud shares a masterclass not just on Indigenous tattooing, but on living a life where every mark, every role, and every walk is a testament to the enduring stories of her ancestors.
Check out Nathalie's work at:
Instagram @nattatt8
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
#005 When Natalie Standingcloud etches stories into skin, each line is more than art—it's heritage, history, and identity. Today, she grants us a glimpse into her world, where tattoos are a canvas for the Salish and Cherokee stories that run as deep as the ink. As Natalie weaves her personal tale, we travel the threads of her cultural tapestry, learning how a single tattoo can mark the beginning of a woman's journey, serve as an emblem of indomitable spirit, and bind her to the roots that hold her steadfast against the winds of time.
Embark on an emotional ride with us as Natalie recounts the sweat and tears of the Remember the Removal Bike Ride, where the asphalt miles under her wheels brought her face to face with the legacy of the Trail of Tears. Her voice carries the weight of generations, each word a step closer to understanding what it means to be Cherokee in heart and in spirit. As we traverse the realms of acting and comedy with Natalie's experiences, from community theater's embrace to the spotlight with the 1491s and "Reservation Dogs," we see the mosaic of humor and drama that shapes Native American identity today.
Natalie's narrative doesn't end at the edge of the stage; it extends to the catwalks of New York Fashion Week, where her strides echo the pride of Cherokee artists. Her journey of self-discovery, which challenges the notion that one must excel in a singular creative field, paints a portrait of a woman whose essence is mirrored in every facet of her work. Join us as Natalie Standingcloud shares a masterclass not just on Indigenous tattooing, but on living a life where every mark, every role, and every walk is a testament to the enduring stories of her ancestors.
Check out Nathalie's work at:
Instagram @nattatt8
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
And since we were moved to Oklahoma and we're here now, people forget that history and they get us mixed up with the pan-Indianism stuff and they think that Dreamcatchers and TPs and Feathered Headdresses are Cherokee, which they are native but, they're not ours, you know. I mean, we come from mound builders and Southeastern people and it looks pretty different, looks very different.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks Podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, Dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Casas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intlacot book professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intlacot book skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:So see you on the God. Natalie Dowdoa, johnna Kiyei Yethle. Hello everybody. My name is Natalie Standing Cloud. My maternal tribes are Salish, kootenai, wenatchee and Calville. My paternal tribes are Cherokee and Creek. I've been tattooing since like 2015. I'm also like an actress, model, regular artist too, and I'm from Tahleco, oklahoma.
Speaker 2:Cool. So what was that journey for you to come into tattooing?
Speaker 1:So I got my first tattoo when I was like 16, and I got it done by my dad.
Speaker 1:And so I actually first met my dad when I was eight years old. So growing up he was in prison a lot, so I didn't get to know him or see him until I was eight years old and I got to see him. He was the first person I noticed that had like tattoos, you know, because, like people in my family didn't really have as many tattoos as he did. Obviously because where he was and where he got him, and so that was when I was first like intrigued at first got me, and then when I was 16, I was like okay, like I kind of want to get a tattoo because like that's really cool, I'm 16. I had recently had my woman's ceremony and I just felt like I was growing and getting older.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, I talked to my mom about it and she trusted my dad and we tried to figure out like what is this first tattoo going to be? Because, like you know, my mom was like you're not just going to get anything.
Speaker 2:You've got to get something.
Speaker 1:That means something you know, and I was like dang it okay, and then where are you going to put it?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:So we decided we were going to put it on the back of my neck.
Speaker 2:That way.
Speaker 1:I could hide it with my hair because I was 16. And so my mom. She worked at the Cherokee Nation at the time and she was able to speak with one of the language people there that, like you know, know how to speak the language, and she was able to get my Indian name translated into Cherokee. So I have a Salish name that was given to me by my grandmother, my mom's mom, during my woman's ceremony, which was Quasque Bluejay, and so I wanted to get that translated into my dad's tribe, which is Cherokee, and Cherokees have a written language called syllabary right.
Speaker 1:So then we got it translated into the Cherokee language, which is pronounced flanga, and we got that in the syllabary and my dad tattooed that on the back of my neck.
Speaker 2:Oh dough, you can see it yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, like for a week when I was at school, I had my hair up in a bun and. I would like get up in front of everybody and sharpen my pencil.
Speaker 2:Like I'm a badass, I got tattooed 16, you know.
Speaker 1:So that was my only tattoo for a long while, until I turned about 18. And when I was 18, we went to go see my dad again, and this time I had a boyfriend with me and he wanted to get tattooed. So we're like yeah, let's go see dad get tattooed. And so my boyfriend's getting tattooed by my dad. My dad's doing like an outline of like a tribal eagle, like just a black like 90s tribal, just you know solid black eagle, that's like geometrical, looking on his chest filling it in.
Speaker 1:And oh, he did the line work. And he asked me. He was like do you want to try it? You know I shade it in, you know you can't mess it up.
Speaker 2:As long as you stand on the lines and get it black.
Speaker 1:You know, that's how you do it. I've grown up always being an artist you know, and I'm left handed too and people tend to tell me like left handed people are like more artistic or whatever, just something that was instilled in me, anyway, and then my dad's an artist too, so it's like in the blood.
Speaker 2:So, yeah.
Speaker 1:So then I go over there and I'm like, okay, I'm really nervous, it's my boyfriend, I don't want to mess him up. I was like, okay, but I can do this right, it just stands on the lines, it's fine, you know. You know how to hold a pencil.
Speaker 1:You get to hold this tattoo machine and he had like the old, heavy one, you know the loud ones, and so I start filling it in and it's just like it was so much more, like it's so different than anything I've done like on paper, right, and it was like surgical filling you know, precise. You have to be perfect, and there's some part of my personality that enjoys the challenge of being perfect. I kind of am a perfectionist and just like I fell in love with it and I've. Honestly, I get a lot more joy out of like tattooing than I would like drawing on regular paper.
Speaker 2:It's almost a little dull now you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I've been tainted by this awesome like tattooing world and so after I did that I was like, wow, like this is something I really like. I want to know more. And so my grandmother actually she's always been my number one support, especially when I was growing up and she saw that I was artistic. She'd buy me like all these different art kits right. So like every Christmas I know I was getting an art kit Even though I didn't know what to do with it you know, it was like too much.
Speaker 1:I was like I don't know what to do with all these things? It was overwhelming and it also made me feel like like what is she seeing me that I don't yet see in myself? So as I got older and I told her I was interested in tattooing, my grandmother got in her garage and brought me out this little case, or whatever, and I was like what's about to happen right now? What are you about to show me? She opens up the case and it's this little tiny old like tattoo pen.
Speaker 1:That's in there like made out plastic, you know, pretty old looking. And she told me that like years ago she had went down to Texas to learn how to do like the permanent makeup tattooing. And I guess she like bought the kit, did a couple classes and just like quit you know, just decided not to do it, and so she was like okay, well, I've been saving this for I don't even know why, but, like here, use it, have it do something with it.
Speaker 1:So I was like, okay, cool, so I have my first tattoo machine as a little pen. It was different, too, Because I was like all right, Dad, show me how to use this, because this doesn't look like any of the machines you're working with Right so much smaller. And I've tattooed, like several friends, with that machine and I remember one time people always asked me, like what's the longest tattoo you've ever done? And I was like God it was like 11, 10 hours, nine hours too long but.
Speaker 1:I had a friend who came and saw me when I was in college because I was like, go on trying to go to school for acting while I'm trying to do these tattoos at the same time, anyway, so I had a friend drive all the way from Oklahoma City to Tulsa, or no, oklahoma City from Tahlequah, vice versa, tahlequah from Oklahoma City, to come see me in college at my apartment and we basically did like. It was from like above his elbow all the way up to the top of his shoulder, like a 90s solid black tribal on his arm with that little tiny pen.
Speaker 2:Oh shit, with that little tiny pen, what was it? Probably like a five, or even a three.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the shading right, Like the shading needle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like small bro, so small and it took us forever and I charged him like 80 bucks Nice.
Speaker 1:It was horrible, but it was like something I just had to do, I guess you know, what I mean, you don't know until you do it. So then, I've come a long way since then, Eventually my reputation got so well in my small little town because it went from me like tattooing in my college apartment to me like going back home to go to college. And then like it got to a thing where like I stopped going to school so much and started like tattooing more.
Speaker 1:And eventually I just stopped going to school and just like because, like tattooing was like I was making money- and I was like, okay, and I was struggling in college at the time because I grew up wanting to be an actor.
Speaker 1:So bad, Like I want to be on like Nickelodeon Disney all that stuff and I didn't really know how, but I had gotten the full ride scholarship. I had the Gates scholarship and I had gotten accepted. I auditioned and got accepted to the New York acting school in New York I forgot what it's called now. But even though I got accepted to that school, the Gates scholarship was like that's not a real school, you need to go to a real school. And I was like, okay, gosh, like what's a real school.
Speaker 1:So my aunt Kimberly, who's been the actress in my family. She said, oh see you, Oklahoma City University is like a like a secret hidden gem of acting world. Like Christian Chenoweth, she went there graduated. Lots of other people went there too. So I was like, okay, I'll try it out. And so this was my first time really leaving home too.
Speaker 1:So when I like I got like culture shock really bad when I went to college and I was very alone and just struggled a lot, gained a lot of weight and like I did the acting classes and I was in the plays and I did what the acting students do. But then I was also just feeling guilty because I was like what am I using this full ride scholarship for? To be an actor? Like I feel guilty, like maybe I should be doing something else and I'm struggling.
Speaker 2:And so that's when I decided instead of dropping out.
Speaker 1:I was like I'm going to try one more time, but I'm going to go home because, maybe I'll feel better from closer to home. Went to NSU back at home, started doing like Native American studies class, which was hard bro, so hard and I wasn't even listening. I was like drawing in class the whole time.
Speaker 2:So I was like okay, well, maybe if I take art classes because I've never taken art classes up until then, art classes in college is when I actually first started taking art classes. Because I just didn't?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I was like I'm pretty good at drawing. Why do I need?
Speaker 2:art classes. Why do I need?
Speaker 1:somebody to tell me what to do or whatever. But I was like, no, maybe I should try, because obviously this is what I'm doing. So, then I started taking the art classes in college, but by then it was like almost too late. I got already like fucked up. Too long, too much.
Speaker 1:So I ended up dropping out but I had tattooing. That was like keeping me afloat and I think that's why I felt pretty confident, like letting that go and moving on to this new thing and so but I made sure to like listen to my dad and like keep my stuff sterile, keep my stuff safe. And then eventually I had the attention of this guy who owned a shop in the next town over and he brought me into his shop. We had a conversation. I was scared at first. I was like, oh God, they got me.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's gonna happen. But no, he brought me in and we had a talk and he was basically explaining to me what an apprenticeship was and was like I'm gonna move to your town soon. I want you to be my apprentice. If you're interested, we can do this. And I was like, oh wow. And my dad was always like, encouraging me like you know, you should get my sense Like don't be like me Be better. So I was like okay, so let's do this. So my apprenticeship in Oklahoma took about two years to do.
Speaker 2:Cool.
Speaker 1:Got done with it and yeah, I mean like here I am now. And I'm tattooing full time in Tulsa at a really great shop. And yeah, here I am.
Speaker 2:That's dope. It's nice to meet you. Yeah, I think when I think about that. Yeah, it was the same thing. You know, I got this little tiny you know dragon. You know, little tiny dragon.
Speaker 1:Oh, you got a dragon to start off with. Yeah, I love dragons.
Speaker 2:It was like well, I was 17. I was at the magazine store because, of course, back in the day you had to go to the magazine shop to get the tat mags. I was flipping through I'm like, oh, this one's cool. So I ripped it out, put it in my pocket. When got it tatted up?
Speaker 2:That's so cool yeah it was funny to, yeah, think about those first tattoo experiences, and I would say the first, you know, when I just thinking of what you were sharing in terms of the first time you've seen tattoos. It was my two uncles, my one uncle, ernie, you know he was in the military so he had, like I think it was like his kid's names and a heart with the banner you know I actually fixed it up and added a name now but yeah, that was like kind of the one my uncle Tony.
Speaker 2:he was from Corpus Christi, texas, and so he had some like Mayan Mexican kind of stuff on there, so those are the first things I remember. I think he had like a cromis, probably like hand poke too, you know on his hand or something for back in the day.
Speaker 1:So yeah, those are those first experiences I can think of you know doing, getting you know those experiences, exposures to tattooing I was like so fucking badass you know, I also think it's pretty funny like being in Oklahoma because it's like the Bible Belt and then, on top of that, just knowing that tattooing in Oklahoma was illegal before 2006.
Speaker 2:Oh shit.
Speaker 1:Before 2006,. Everybody had to go to like Kansas, missouri, texas, to go get tattooed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's something real interesting in terms of the differences between Canada and here.
Speaker 1:because, yeah, yeah, so what's it like in Canada? Like was that illegal, I guess?
Speaker 2:No, no, I don't even think there was any real legislation. I think they put legislation in the 90s Really, but that was still in place up to the time that I started my apprenticeship in 2009,. But it wasn't illegal, it was just legislation of like here's the health standards. But when you looked at those old health standards, they were actually obsolete. Like they were saying you needed to in between, each time you put the ink and skin, you had to put it in the what's the, not the autoclave, the ultrasonic, where you'd put your tubes that vibrate. Your tubes vibrate, the ink out. So that's actually a very on sterile practice because your tubes from everyone goes in the ultrasonic before you go to the scrubbing, before you go to the autoclave.
Speaker 2:So it was like I was like what the heck? Oh my goodness. But yeah, no, I can't even think of it.
Speaker 1:Is there any roles on like where your tattoo shop was allowed to be in the community?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Because, like in Oklahoma, you're not allowed to be like so many feet away from like a church or a school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to be like away from those things.
Speaker 1:No, no, no there was.
Speaker 2:no, there was nothing like that and, in as far as I know, in terms of history of the legality and illegality of tattooing, I think it was basically they put us with like salons, beauty salons and hair salons Interesting. Yeah, so yeah, it's kind of cool 2006. Like what the fuck?
Speaker 1:Yeah, isn't that crazy. It's like the last frontier here, wow yeah. But I mean I'm seeing like a whole lot more people getting tattoos now, oh yeah. Yeah, which is exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and all the indigenous folks and different indigenous artists coming up and doing the work that they want to do.
Speaker 1:I love seeing like the floral styles, like the ledger styles the traditional tribal coming. That's not like the 90s tribal. Yeah, it's real stuff. Yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess that's a good segue into the reason I'm here visiting with you, yes, yes. You know we're going into the true tribal contemporary expressions of ancestral tattoo practices. I think is the working title for the exhibition which will be at the Museum of Vancouver, so I'm super stoked to be able to spend a couple of days with you.
Speaker 1:I'm super honored man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like wow, how'd you even find me first of all?
Speaker 2:People just send me stuff. You know that's wild. I've been doing the work since 2009. I started my apprenticeship and then I started skin stitched and handpoked my own leg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what? I've seen this in a book recently. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was the first time I stitched. You can see right here.
Speaker 1:So cool.
Speaker 2:It's real hella big. So that was a needle, thick ass needle, you know the needles that have the like kind of bump on the end, mm-hmm, where the thread goes through. It was one of those and so I like pulled it through and I'm like, oh, oh, so you really? Yeah, I just started writing. No, nobody was doing that, nobody was skin stitching, except maybe three people in the world.
Speaker 1:That's incredible.
Speaker 2:And one of them was a white dude. Well, they were all white folks who were doing it and when, the time that I started that and I reached out and he's quite a famous art tattoo artist, I won't call him out or anything like that but I reached out and I said hey yo, like this is from my community, like would you show me how to do it? Nothing, Really.
Speaker 2:Not even, not even, not even. I like, hey, no, not interested. And so I was. I did research into our pictographs and stuff and I just decided like fuck it, this is what I'm supposed to do, right. So I went down to the shop because I was already apprenticing or already tattooing, so you know, like the setup and everything and you know the depth, right, you could go down and do a stitch and I'm like yeah, that's too deep, right. So, yeah, just one. My wife has a pixelated old ass cell phone video of me doing it, but I'm sitting there in my underwear because I wasn't expecting it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wasn't expecting to like show anyone, so yeah, that's dope.
Speaker 1:But I have tattooed myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not like that, though I've. I haven't actually handpoked or hand stitched or done like the Tappy tab. Yeah, I've done machine, but I am interested to see what that's like. I got to see what that's like eventually, so and I know I have, like friends and everybody who would be willing for me to even do it on myself. Maybe you know what I mean. But anyways, I have tattooed myself. I can't see it, it's like on my ankle. I did it in white ink.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, because I didn't want to be that crazy, right, I was just like, let me just see how this feels.
Speaker 1:So I did it with that little makeup pen. That.
Speaker 2:I had Okay.
Speaker 1:And I tattooed like a little white, like white arrow, on my ankle. And I mean it's like one shade lighter than my skin, but that's, you know, the most I've ever done to myself. I was like this sucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting too, too, that you're that you know that conversation we're having as part of the conversation I'd like to have in the exhibition is I almost feel like there's this hierarchy of authenticity. I call it yeah, especially in indigenous tattooing, where it's like, okay, you got the machine, you know the indigenous machine artist, then you got like the handpokers and then you got the people doing the real tradition stuff where it's like bone and you know those.
Speaker 1:Along with the same like like design to being everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all the same design, no matter where you're using hand poke. You know bone needles or machine, but it's like you know, the bone needles are the most traditional, therefore the most authentic, therefore the most indigenous right. So, for me, it's like now we're contemporary people doing the work that we need to do. We love that, using the technology that we have right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You can see, our ancestors went from bone to metal needles with their sewing, you know, with the way that they use the awls and the basket making. So they've transformed their technology. But now we're at a point where people are like no, the most authentic, the most. You know real real indigenous is the hand poke or this Ouch.
Speaker 1:Right. So for me it's like the imposter syndrome is real right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for me it's like nah, these are all ancestral technologies. We are contemporary people using the tools that we need to use for today. Yeah, okay, and so for me, that's what the exhibition is about is bringing indigenous tattoo artists, ancestral skin markers, whatever to who are doing the work of marking their people and their people's design, symbols, motifs, and you know, as big as we can get them.
Speaker 1:Cool. Okay, I see where I'm starting to fit in.
Speaker 2:I feel it, yeah, so for me it's like bringing all those people in and then highlighting people who are using machine, because for me it doesn't matter. You know, at one time, yes, I did think it was important to go to bone, so I have made bone needles, I have skin stitched with bone but and I've hand poked hella tons, right. So I think that it's just finding the right tool for the job.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So for me, when I do facial markings, I only do hand tools.
Speaker 1:Because they're gentle right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gentle, and I just feel like it adds a different experience. Okay, and you can use it anywhere. But I mean, now you have batteries for everything for machines so you can do it anywhere.
Speaker 1:I get to use my new machine during our thing here.
Speaker 2:Oh nice, yeah this week and it's like wire A bishop oh nice, bishop machine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I got the wireless foot switch.
Speaker 2:There's no strings on me. Tap situation. You know what I'm saying Not being held down. Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1:It's very freeing, very freeing.
Speaker 2:So when you think of you know, just circling back to the exhibition when you think of the work that you do in things that honor your ancestors or the ancestors of the people you're working with, you know, what does that feel like? To be able to do that?
Speaker 1:I think it's like super special for me Well for me, considering that I'm Cherokee and all the history behind that, meaning that my people were removed from like Georgia.
Speaker 2:North.
Speaker 1:Carolina area and moved to Oklahoma. A lot of our stuff was lost during that journey and since we were moved to Oklahoma and we're here now, people forget that history and they get us mixed up with the Pan-Indianism stuff and they think that dream catchers and teepees and feathered headdresses are Cherokee, which they are native, but they're not ours. You know what I mean. We come from mound builders and Southeastern people and it looks pretty different.
Speaker 2:It looks very different.
Speaker 1:And that was something that kind of I mean when I grew up looking the way I do, also like people always tell me I look like Pocahontas, I get that all the time growing up and then, like you know, being native, knowing that I was native, I didn't really realize I was Cherokee until I was like eighth grade right.
Speaker 1:But, like, growing up I knew I was native, so I just like thought, like how everybody else thought, like everything that's native is all, it's all one thing, right. And then when I got turned, you know, eighth grade, I started digging into the history and I also took, you know, I was taking Native American classes and actually reading the history of like who I am, where my people come from, and realizing, oh, that's not really us, that's not really ours. And then discovering like, oh, we have like this whole written language, which is really cool, and we have these stories and we have these basket weaving designs, we have designs on pottery.
Speaker 1:We have stuff and it's really cool. And you know, what's funny is that in one of those Native American classes my teacher had this map on the wall of the United States and on this map there was like couples, like a man and a woman, everywhere that kind of represented like the people that were there right the tribes and stuff and they would be dressed in the regalia that they wore in that tribe and that specific location and it would show their housing and like their potteries and whatever you know else that they used at the time.
Speaker 1:And I was like looking around that map and I looked at like Oklahoma and I was like, wait a second, where am I from there? I was like, all right, let me look in like North Carolina, georgia area. And I was looking there and I seen the couple and like everybody else looks so amazing, right. The regalia and stuff and I was excited to see what Cherokee's have and like literally the couple are just like wearing like potato sacks.
Speaker 2:They just look really boring. I was like there's no way.
Speaker 1:I mean, I also saw like the longhouses too, but I was like there are no way, that's just us right. So then I wanted to dig deeper and like see what else we had and which I mean. There is like better stuff, it's not just potato sacks.
Speaker 2:Like we have these.
Speaker 1:The men would have like blocks, like you know, like scalp locks and when we get tattoos, we had like feather capes and things like that, like there's more stuff that we had. But yeah, that was my journey growing up and realizing that we have stuff is just different, you know, and I got to dig deeper to find those things and when I found them, I was eager to push those images forward with whatever I was making.
Speaker 1:And so, being a tattoo artist in Tulsa, oklahoma, a lot of my clientele are native, whether they're Cherokee or they're any of the other tribes that were removed with us and depending on what tribe they are, you know I get to know each one of my clients very personally. You know we have conversations before we just dig into the tattooing and if they do happen to be Cherokee, which is something I share with them, I'm able to kind of help them to, you know, design their artwork based upon like who they are as a Cherokee person, or who their family is, or if they know who their clan is or they if they had a specific story that they really like.
Speaker 1:Pick something out of the story and make an art out of it and give it to them, things like that you know, and if they are other tribes, like I've done, like a lot of, like Osage ribbon work patterns, you know things like that Osage have their written language as well. What else have I done? Um Well, thank you again. I can't think of the top of my head right now, but that's just an example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah. That's kind of cool and it's really interesting as well, because when I think about the work that we do with our people, I talk about it as tattoo medicine, and for us that's a very different and unique experience as Indian people in Canada under the Indian Act. But it's a very different experience here, and the reason I talk about it as tattoo medicine is because so much of our identity was erased through colonization. But that history is way more intense here, with the removal of your people and the trail of tears. So do you want to just share a little bit about what that was for folks that may, just in a broad stroke, of what that was and how you came to be here, your people.
Speaker 1:Do you mean just like the trail of tears in general?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just because I don't want to speak for you.
Speaker 1:No, you're fine. I mean, I'm also not the greatest historian either.
Speaker 2:No, just to share what exactly it was and what you understand about it.
Speaker 1:So okay, so I have a good example of what I understand about it. So, back when I was a junior in high school this was in 2012, I was selected to be part of a group called it was an organization called the Remember the Removal Bike Ride.
Speaker 1:It's an experience, not really an organization, but they pick a certain group of people every year. You have to apply for it and then you have interviews. They're very selective on who they choose, but thankfully I was selected. So basically, what this Remember the Removal Bike Ride is is that they would pick us up in buses in Tahlequah and they would take us all the way back to New Achota, georgia, and we would bicycle all the way back to Tahlequah, oklahoma, and retrace the trail of tears itself, and it took us about two weeks and it was about 900 miles. And then on the way back, we would stop at certain places that were significant on the trail, and they even showed us a house that one of the bike riders, like ancestors, had lived in.
Speaker 1:They also did our genealogy for us, which was a surprise that we didn't know they were going to do for us. So then I got to see on paper all the people that I'm connected to. I think they even took us to a graveyard where I got to see one of my ancestors' headstones, which was really nice but also very heavy too right, and I mean that was quite an experience in itself to be able to physically walk where everybody else walked and retrace that for myself.
Speaker 1:You know, it's different than just like reading it in a book to like physically experience that, and so that gave me a lot more appreciation and understanding of what it means to be Cherokee. Because, like and it's so funny too, because they would take quotes from what we said as bike riders coming back and I didn't know that they were going to take our quotes and print them out on big old signs and then put them like on the way home, as we were like coming in for the last day to like to end the journey.
Speaker 1:And my mom she's so funny, she's like you're just depressing. I was like no, it's not. But basically mine said, mine said I always knew I was Cherokee, but I didn't feel like I belonged or like you know. I had this weird sense of having to, like, prove myself, even though I was born the way I was. I felt like that wasn't enough, like I had to do more work in order to earn this right to be like yeah, I'm Cherokee, you know what I mean. So that's kind of the extra work that I did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool. So so, from my understanding is it how do you know how many people were brought here? You know how many different nations? Was it just your nation or was there? I want?
Speaker 1:to say about five tribes in general, and they all took, we all came in the same direction, we all ended up in like Northeast Oklahoma, but some of them went by river, some of us like just walked. You know, I think about five different tribes, but yeah, wow, it was a really long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that's just so intense to think of five different nations, right.
Speaker 1:Not just my tribe that was displaced, but all these families, all these people that have, like, just uprooted themselves from where they grew up, for, you know, generations.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then having to survive in a land that they're not used to.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and having to. Oh God, there's a story about how actually I'll tell you this story. There's somebody I just recently tattooed whose ancestor was Rebecca Nugent. Rebecca Nugent was the last like living survivor of the Trail of Tears. She died at the age of like 90, maybe 100.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but only her one memory that she has from that time of being removed when she was a little girl is that I mean, it's kind of hard to understand like why are we like all walking? Why are we moving? Why are we like leaving our homes? Well, I have my pet duck. That's all she remembers is she had this pet duck with her that she like squeezed and hugged and held on to when they removed her family from their homes. And, you know, after a while she squeezed that duck so hard that it ended up dying and they had to throw that duck to the you know side of the road and leave it and like that was the one thing that she remembers from that time was like having to let that go and keep moving forward. So we ended up tattooing, like I drew like an image of a little girl. We didn't do her face, but she's holding a duck and then I have like a really kind of like soft-fated trail behind her with some silhouettes of people and some soldiers on horses with guns to kind of show that and represent that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for you who are listening and watching, you know it was the forced removal of five different tribes to here in Oklahoma from other parts of the so-called United States.
Speaker 1:Yeah, andrew Jackson was president at the time and he was the one who put it through.
Speaker 2:Yeah See, you know way more than you think. I mean, I was like imposter, she's coming up, she's like all right, well, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm really bad. So, dion, I'm great at art, bad at numbers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've had this thing about numbers when it comes to dates, math, whatever, yeah, yeah, I don't know no more, so when?
Speaker 1:it comes to facts, like with numbers, I can't really help you, but I can definitely try to describe like yeah, yeah, just the experience, you know, because some people who are listening don't know the history of our nations right.
Speaker 2:And so it's just trying to paint a clearer picture of, like how you came here and, I would say for me, the impact that that would have for you, as demonstrated by your own life and your own reality of thinking. Like I have to prove who I am right.
Speaker 1:And this trail of tears that happened like in the early 1800s like 1830, something maybe, but like some people like to think that this kind of history happened like 500, 600 years ago, when it's literally like people's grandparents that had to experience this trauma. It's not that far along ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it's just insane To think about that. And when I think about it it's just yeah, again that experience. Because for us, you know we still stayed in where we're living, you know we had that same imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I forget about that because I just think, like I don't know, I think everybody had to move around and make room for everybody at some point right, but that's not always the case. Like years is totally a different story, so tell me about that.
Speaker 2:We still have the same feelings, yeah, yeah, right. Those same feelings of like oh, I'm not enough, I'm not Indian enough, I have to demonstrate this, I have to put this out there, right. And so when I think about the marks that you're giving to people from your nation and the surrounding nations right, that's for me I always say there are marks of resilience, right. So you're celebrating the badasses who did that trip.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That brought your ancestors here.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Right.
Speaker 2:And so it's really a celebration of how tough they are.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:A lot of times we think of that intergenerational trauma. I think of the intergenerational resilience that was, yeah, the strength, the power. You know all of the resilience that they had to go through all that tough shit because a lot of people died in those journeys. Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:But we're still here. I mean, I'm proof.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and so for that is the celebration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, that's why I wanted to explore that. And then it just peaked in my mind because I'm like, oh yeah, this history that I have a vague understanding of, but it speaks to that tattoo medicine even more. Because there's because the colonization of the United States was way more militaristic than Canada.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, Whereas, like yes, there was, especially when you think of the Indian residential schools the schools, all that type of stuff? Yes, there was, but there wasn't the out and out military campaigns to hunt people down you know kill all the buffalo, all of that type of stuff, and then the Trail of Tears. All of that stuff is a representation of the militarization, of the colonization, of the people here.
Speaker 2:So it's just, really just. My mind is just going, oh shit, like which is important. It's why we have to have these conversations, sit down together and to understand. You know where we're coming from. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool, so cool. No-transcript yeah, I just can't believe you know like I just think of you know how hard of a time we have in our own places, but it's important to bring forward the challenges that each other has right, and to bring that forward because, hello, people are going to watch this because it's about tattooing, but they're going to be like, oh shit, like and if you are watching or listening and you haven't heard about the Trail of Tears, go fucking research it, go find out about it, because it's an important part of the history of the work that Natalie's doing and the people in this area are doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's important. So yeah, just that tattoo medicine of like embodying who we are, right bringing all that stuff.
Speaker 1:It is. It is tattoo medicine. It really is. It's a pain that you choose. You know something that you're in control of, that you're choosing, but it stays with you forever, even though the pain is temporary, which is really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would just like to, you know, hold you up in terms of the work that you do and also encourage you to stand in that power and that knowledge that you do have. You know you've shared that. You know you have that imposter syndrome. We all fucking have it. I have it as well, but just want to hold you up because it's obvious that you have more knowledge than you know, you have more power than you know. So, just holding you up in that and just, you know, encouraging you in that, Thanks, dionne, I really, I feel different now.
Speaker 2:I really do yeah, yeah, yeah, feel more grounded, feel you know secure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool, cool you were talking about. One thing I wanted to key in on was you're bringing the pottery designs, the basketry designs, all of those designs back. You know it's like reaching hands across time. You know pulling those things forward for the people today, Mm-hmm. You know how do you go about finding all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:Um so I from Tallahalq, oklahoma, that's considered like the Cherokee headquarters or like Cherokee Nation Capital, I should say.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so we have our Cherokee Nation headquarters there, of course, but we also have, like, the Cherokee Heritage Museum.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And I go there a lot to buy my books and get research that way, clients of mine, who you'll see later today. He works in archives.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he's able to like, show me like really good reference photos.
Speaker 2:Got the hook up. Yes, I got the hook up, and that's where.
Speaker 1:I get a lot of my knowledge from is from my peers and my people in my community and my friends.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's dope. Yeah, what is it like. You know, what is that difference between you know, when you first started, were you doing that type of stuff or were you just doing kind of roses? I?
Speaker 1:was doing the skulls and head the dead Indians. I was doing the dream ketchers and the teepees, because I was just saying yes to everybody. Yeah, of course, but then, when I got up to a certain point, I was like you know, you don't have to do this, natalie, you can put out in the world what you want to see.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you don't want to see that stuff anymore, don't do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and I don't control anybody or have any influence over what anybody wants to do with their body. You said they still want to go get the dream ketchers, but just know. I'm not going to be the one doing it yeah. You know that's. I respect your choices and whatever you want to do with your own body, but I know what I want to do with my hands and my body. Yeah, and so that's kind of you know that thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah but yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, as I got older and you know, realize that you know Cherokees have very specific things. That's what I really want to start focusing on, or even like helping my friends and my peers get educated on what that is, because a lot of them still thought the same old way of what Cherokee is right, yeah, and so we, I get to help them kind of discover deeper. You know what we have from, you know southeastern designs and things like that. Also, you know reading, doing my research, understanding that, like our traditional Cherokee tattoos a lot of times were used to, you know, show people, like their military ranks, like a lot of essentially definitely warriors were tattooed. Warriors were covered in tattoos to show, like, their accomplishments, their kills, their you know, their ranks in the military.
Speaker 1:People who did ceremony priests would probably get tattooed and have certain things on them that would let people know that's what they do. Yeah, it makes me laugh to think about when our people were like trying to date each other and like you don't date your cousins, yeah, so like instead of like awkwardly being like hey, who's your family, or whatever. They would like see your tattoos and be like oh okay, so they're that clan, all right, so maybe not that one but like, look at that, okay, that one's not my mom or dad's plan, I can date that person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally so I thought that was pretty interesting and then also like way, way back in the day, before you know contact, we didn't have the Cherokee syllabary. We didn't have the written language. Yeah, that was afterwards.
Speaker 1:So, Sequoia was the one who invented the Cherokee syllabary that was really heavily inspired by like English lettering, yeah, but he made you know our own. And so when we had that I was like, okay, that well, that's another tool to kind of keep our stuff going, yeah. And so I have a lot of clients who get like their, their clans, like the actual like written language tattooed on them or their family's name, or even like a phrase or something that they like, really connect to.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so it's really cool to see the language as well as well as like the artwork and the stories and the things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, so you know you originally asked me a while back and I didn't answer. You know how did I find out about you? And it was just, yeah, just people popping up showing me hey, hey, check this out. You know, because I've been doing the work for a while. So people are like, hey, have you seen this person? Have you seen that person? So always get people hit me up and tell me to check out other Indians from all over the place, right? So that's where I originally seen the work that you were doing and I seen how some of the original stuff that really I was like, oh, this is so dope, was the. You did a few ledger tattoos. You know tattoos based on the ledger drawings and you know that's such an important history that other people don't either know either about how those came to be you know, transferring from you know winter counts and other types of ancestral pictographic art.
Speaker 1:Right, right, one of my favorite ones to do is the water spider story. So, like even an Osage tribes too, they have a specific water or not water, it's just a spider design. So Osage have a specific spider design that's specifically only for women. Yeah, and Cherokee, we also have a different type of spider design and our spider story. It's the water spider story of the spider that can crawl on top of the water. Yeah, and she essentially brought our ceremonial fire to us. All the other animals attempted to get this fire, and the story is that there was a storm that happened and there's a tree that was on this little tiny island in the middle of all this water, and the tree got struck by lightning and got caught ablaze.
Speaker 1:And then all the animals tried their best to like go get some of that fire and they would fail. So like the snake would go and it got burnt turned. Black Raccoon would go his like got smoke in the eyes and got like the black mask it was at. The owl tried and like got smoke in his eyes and they got all big you know there's different stories for different age animal, but it was the spider that eventually brought that fire back to us.
Speaker 1:And so you see a lot of that in our designs and I have done the original spider design that is seen in our pottery. But I've also like kind of made my own spider design and included like the flame and the fire in that picture to kind of give more detail into the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool, yeah, that's dope, yeah that's awesome too. And I think that's what we need to do. We have to make those that artwork, that visual language for our people today. You know, tell those stories the way that we need to tell them as well, visually right, and that's leaving a legacy for those people who are coming after right, right, but I wanted to maybe transition and ask you a little about, about the other stuff that you do. So you shared in your introduction that you're a model, an actress, and a an artist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean an artist in like all different aspects.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I my dad, always told me like a true artist does many different mediums you know, not just one thing.
Speaker 1:So, like I, my grandmother is a silver Smith at one point, so we've made like jewelry and rings together. My Nana, she was a seamstress and she played with clay also, like the glass, like mosaic stuff. What else my dad like as an artist. So I just draw, you know I mean. But one thing that people notice about me being a tattoo artist is I'm not really covered in tattoos. You know, if you look at me like I first glance, you don't really see anything until I start showing you what I have like the small tattoo behind my neck, or I have one that's on my ribs.
Speaker 1:I have one that's like on my ankle, and the one that's on my ankle is this floral design that we made, but I share it with the three other actresses I act with on the reservation dogs show, so the other aunties. And so once we film that episode together, we decided to get that tattoo together. I had somebody at work do mine, but I did theirs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we share that together too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the modeling and things. And I have an aunt in my family. Her name is Kimberly Kimberly Norris Garouro. Growing up she was the actress in the family. Her biggest role, I mean her first big role, was on Seinfeld.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, so she played.
Speaker 1:Jerry's girlfriend in the Cigar story Indian episode and she also plays Auntie B and Res Dog. So that's our first TV show together Cool. So it's really awesome for our family to see you know me and her on the same show together acting. But she always told me growing up, like you know, if you're going to be an actor and model, just kind of slow, you know, really think about your choices when it comes to getting the tattoos.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm like 28 now been tattooing for like eight years. Yeah, but I think I think I'm ready now, yeah, to start getting stuff that you can really see. Yeah, you know, I feel established.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like I'm excited to really start digging into my own tattoo. Yeah, because I've given so many to so many people and like lots of them. I'm like, oh, I wish, kind of wish that was mine. Yeah, totally, or like all the tattoos are like my little babies and they go out into the world and just like, oh, they just leave me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with nothing. No, just kidding.
Speaker 1:But yeah so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I feel that way. I'm like, oh, I'm kind of jealous. I always feel myself I'm like tattooing away and I'm like I'm kind of jealous, I want this.
Speaker 1:Make a copy of their design, just make a stencil and just stick it on and be like yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:So do you want to talk a little bit about the acting that you've done?
Speaker 1:So I've been acting since I was six. Yeah, my first acting experience was with my aunt Kimberly. She wrote and directed the independent film called Standing Cloud. Which was like loosely based around about my mom.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just played myself in that, but that was my first time like being around a crew and being in front of the camera and being told to do this at a certain time. And I remember there was one scene where I had to be upset because my dad was upset, or I thought my dad was upset with me, and so they called action and I just started bawling, just crying, and my aunt came up. She's like are you okay, are you okay?
Speaker 1:I was like yeah, I thought you said you know to do this. And then she's like oh, you are okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's do this again. Bring it back a little bit.
Speaker 1:You don't have to go and then, like people on her set were like, hey, like your niece is really good, she should keep doing the acting stuff. But as I got older, you know life happens and, like my mom at the time didn't really have the resources to get me the agent and get me the things I needed, so I just did what I could, right. So I was like involved in my community. I did like acting summer camp stuff when I grew up I was like in Cherokee choir. I was also in like plays. In high school I did the speech and debate competitions. I got like fifth in state for poetry.
Speaker 1:And then in college I did the college acting classes. I managed to do a couple plays After I left college. I was in a play in Omaha, nebraska, called Return to Nye Abrara, which was written by Mary Catherine Nagel. She's a Cherokee lawyer in a playwright and I also got to do another play for her, or one of her plays in Portland, oregon which was called Crossing Minisoche, which I played Sacajawea in that one, and then I also got to play somebody that was in present day who was at the Standing Rock protest, because those two stories kind of intertwined in the same location and that's kind of how she's able to write her story.
Speaker 1:She'll go back and forth between the present and the past and find a way to like intertwine those two things together in a courtroom setting. It's so crazy how she writes her plays Mary Catherine. Nagel, please go see her Anyway. So those were my theater experiences. Are you familiar with the 1491s?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So those guys, it's fucking funny as well there are a funny group of native guys on YouTube.
Speaker 1:If you haven't seen them, 1491s. But they were doing like comedy skit Indie air that you would. Yes yes, I made a couple of their videos actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you're looking up. So they started doing like live comedy shows, like at like casinos and colleges and like kind of places around the country, and if they didn't have all five guys, they would like bring me in as like a filler, as like the one.
Speaker 2:1491 woman you know to be on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so cool. And then there are a lot of improv, because I remember being backstage and being the theater kid, right, I'm like, okay, guys, like let's warm up, like what's the lines, let's rehearse, like what's the plan? And they just look at me like, uh, natalie, we just look, go up there and fuck around and find out. And I'm just like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:That's what we do.
Speaker 1:So, but no, they really helped me, you know, and grow in that way. And so when I got you know time passes got older Sterling started writing Reservation Dogs, yeah. And so when that time came around, when they started filming the first season, I auditioned for it and I got the part of the optometrist receptionist.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then the next season comes around and people are asking me oh, natalie, you're going to be in the next season, are you going to be like? Well, I don't know, I'm just going to trust Sterling and if I hear from my, I hear from him, if I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm really grateful for what I got, yeah, and so I hear from them again and they actually write me in the second season in a bigger part it's the anti episodes like season two, episode five, cast a wide net and I'm playing myself I have my own name in the TV show but, yeah, that was a really great episode, if you get a chance to watch it watch it.
Speaker 1:Lots of lots of female native women love that episode. But yeah, so we have one more season coming out. It's the third season coming in August. It's going to be the last one, but I think it's just the beginning though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for real, you never know what's going to be coming next, right, and.
Speaker 1:I also got a small little wink of a part in the Killers of the Flower Moon movie that was made by Martin Scorsese. And all this stuff was made in Oklahoma too, which is incredible because, like, yeah, it's Oklahoma, like not movies and TVs and movie shows don't movie shows. That stuff doesn't get made here often, and now it is, and I'm really excited for this new thing to be growing here and see where it takes off and, you know, brings us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, the 1491s. Sometimes I teach university classes, yeah, and I always throw a few other videos in Slap and Medicine man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally I don't know if a lot of the white kids that are in my classes would get that one Only cool ones do, yeah, but yeah, some of them are pretty, some of them are good to you know, just show about that idea of authenticity, right, and that idea of identity, because you know a lot of people don't even think about some of those things that have to do with Indigenous identities and so, yeah, some of that like indian ear than you those things that are really playing on identity is just such a good thing to put out there and make it like interesting too, right.
Speaker 2:Because, you're in university, you're like fuck yeah if you don't laugh, you cry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:So what is the modeling stuff that you've done?
Speaker 1:The modeling stuff. God, I've just been modeling for, maybe like the past two years.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What was my first gig? I think I walked in a fashion show that was being held at the Fam Museum in Oklahoma City, which is the first Americans museum. I think it's the winner's art market, but they had people like you know doing a fashion show there too, and I wore one of Tanya Weevil's Dearskins business suits that she made.
Speaker 2:It was like a white Dearskins suit.
Speaker 1:She's Cherokee and I was like a power suit.
Speaker 1:And I got to go out there and walk and do that and that just kind of I got some really good photos from that and that just kind of like was a domino effect and I'm being asked to be in these other shows and walk in them and I've been able to like model jewelry for, like Cherokee Coppers one of them. They've gifted me some jewelry to wear. There's some other Etsy Cherokee artists that have jewelry that I've worn and photographed and those to help for their advertisements and things. But yeah, like sometimes I have to turn down some stuff because I'm just getting way too busy man.
Speaker 1:So many things, but this past spring I was able to walk in the New York fashion. During New York Fashion Week I was in New York City with Lee McCormick. She has Heritose handbags she's Creek but she makes these beautiful like individual handbags. So I got to go out there and like show it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, what was it like wearing that suit.
Speaker 1:The suit was. Oh man, it was. I mean, it's a little warm.
Speaker 2:Not gonna lie, you had the lights and stuff and like the adrenaline going.
Speaker 1:But man, it was just a power suit.
Speaker 2:Very beautiful yeah awesome when I think about some of the stuff that you've been sharing and looking at. It's kind of funny how you asked you know like, why'd you ask?
Speaker 1:me to come into this thing.
Speaker 2:You know, you've been doing hella stuff. So, yeah, it's important to acknowledge that.
Speaker 1:And it's one of those things where I have my like, where I have so many things going that it's hard to just like say that I'm one thing I don't know without. It's like good being good at so many different things but not technically being great at one thing to be known for, but like also, why am I putting myself in a box like?
Speaker 2:that yeah big time why can't?
Speaker 1:I just do it all. Yeah, do it all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I do too. Yeah, when I was crossing the border, the guys or the agent, the border agent, Homeland Security was like so what do you do for work? And I'm like tattoo artists, scholar, curator, artist, take your pick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And they're like, yeah, okay, take your pick, I get it, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:That's so dope.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I think about the exhibition, or when you think about the exhibition, what were your first thoughts?
Speaker 1:when I reached out, I probably should have Googled what that meant. First of all because when you messaged me, I think I had just got done with a tattoo convention here in. Tulsa, and so my brain was thinking convention this whole time and I was like, oh shoot, I'm gonna go to the museum of Vancouver and tattoo people, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, I was like, oh, wait a second. So then we had the Zoom call and I got a better clarification of what's really happening. I was like, oh wow, this is. I've never done anything like this, so I think that's why I was sweating it so hard, cause. I was like oh crap, I'm an expert now.
Speaker 2:Like what? No, no, no.
Speaker 1:No, I'm very honored to be part of this.
Speaker 2:I would say you're an expert, more so than many of the people who have written books about your people stuff. Right, how can you be an expert on something that you don't live every single? Day Right no you're so right, right, like when you do that work, when you have those conversations with those people from your community or communities around you, you have experiences that the anthropologist and the scholar wants to extract from you so that they can publish it. But the reality is, is you're the fucking expert, right? I?
Speaker 1:think that that that insecurity comes from, maybe like a lot of the pretendianism that's going on.
Speaker 2:Have you heard that pretendian? Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Things like that Also. Growing up, I've also I had to like go outside of myself to learn more about my people. It wasn't something that was in my household growing up. Cause I was, even though, like all of my grandparents, are native. All of them are native except for my white grandpa who was my mom's dad who basically raised me.
Speaker 2:So, like.
Speaker 1:That's where some of that comes from. You know it's really early in life and I gotta know that I'm like except that too, of myself, Like that's not, that was out of my control. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:That's not my fault.
Speaker 1:And what I do now matters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think you know when I think about that. That's why I always introduce myself as Hungarian, french and Indian, right Like in Thakap Mook. I used to just say Indian, but I say in Thakap Mook now.
Speaker 1:My last name used to be Thomasick or Thomashek, which is. Czechoslovakian, which was really hard to rock, considering, like my first name has. It's Natalie, but it's N-A-T-H-A-L-I-E, so the H is silent and it got to a point where somebody took the silent H out of my first name and tried to put it in Thomasick, my last name, like Thomas like THOM.
Speaker 1:And I was like no, I was like I'm old enough now. I was like actors change your name all the time. So I changed my name to Standing Cloud, which I've been told is Salish. It's my mom's mom, my grandma's last name, so I didn't just like pull it on my butt like in my family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, I think, yeah, it's important to acknowledge that the reality of the place that we're in in terms of identity and some of that call out stuff and pretending stuff, some of that stuff I'm like you know, some of that is using colonial yard sticks to measure who we are and how we came to be Like the blood quantum thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah blood, quantum, or like living on res, living not you know all that type of shit is like you know, and then I also, when you put that in the context of colonization. A lot of our parents, grandparents, didn't grow up because of colonization on res or in connection in a lot of ways right. Even you think of the residential schools and stuff.
Speaker 1:Those people didn't grow up, not by the Lots of things that are out of their control. Yeah, out of your control to do that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, just important to highlight that, like that's why I'm bringing all the artists together is because y'all are the experts.
Speaker 1:From everywhere, like tell me, listen where, every like where you going.
Speaker 2:Myself is in Tlacatum, so from interior Salish, in so-called British Columbia, canada, edmonton. We'll be going there next from here. So Tristan Jenny is a Cree artist we were in Regina earlier, regina, saskatchewan. Nolan Malbuff is a Metis artist. Then I'm gonna be going to New Brunswick to visit with Gordon Sparks, who's MiGma from the East Coast, and then we'll be going later this year to New Zealand, aotearoa, to visit with Terry Cleveness, who is Tongan, and then Julie Pama Pengali, a good friend of mine, who was Maury, and then the final place is going to be over in India.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:To visit with Monaga for the Naga people from India, yeah, which is so cool to see the, you know, bringing everyone together. And you know, part of me wants to highlight the things that we want to highlight and put forward, or that I want to highlight, cause when I look at exhibitions done by non-tattooists or non-practitioners, and also white folks and then also people who are, you know, always looking in trying to bring forward things, it's like pretty much all the same shit, Whereas for us it's totally different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everybody's so unique, right? They all got their own little thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so bringing it forward and showing, also showing those things that you've researched, right, Like those things, not only that you've researched but you've used, Like you've used those things and those things that you've created. Those marks that you've created are out in the world, Informing the Cherokee Nation what it is to be, who we are or you are right, yeah, yeah, yeah Cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's really what that exhibition is really about and bringing it out forward. You know, as we're starting to kind of wind down, I just wanted to give you an opportunity. Is there any questions or things that you wanted to explore? Or when you started looking at some of my stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you follow I was like, who is this guy? Yeah, totally so I come see your stuff and, yeah, you do like large work. So, like me, I've started out very small and like, gradually I kind of have to like push myself to go big. You know Cause I'm like and I got pretty good eyesight too, like I'm kind of known for my fine lines, my small detail, versus you, like, you got the big bang, Woo, everything, and a lot of your work is like black and red. Is there a reason for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so ancestrally we would have. So I use that terminology because I don't like the word traditional. Traditional is a word that was brought in by the anthropologists and I think that we get frozen while we use that word. Right, it doesn't allow us to be contemporary people.
Speaker 2:So, I use ancestral because it's, you know, inspired by the ancestors. So ancestrally we would have used black, you know, because of course it's probably the easiest ink or pigment to use. But for us the symbology of black is darkness, you know, death, all of those type of things, kind of that dark side of reality. But we would use red as a, you know, a feeling of goodness and happiness. You know, in a general sense, Red also means friendship. Red means, you know, all of those really good, happy feelings.
Speaker 2:So I always try to bring that balance between the big heavy black. Because I love big heavy black. Number one, because tattooing's about contrast, right, and so the best contrast we can have is black and skin tone, and so I love that reality, but then also knowing ancestrally what those meanings for those were, and so I'll use that red to kind of balance that. And it doesn't matter how small that red amount is in, it contrasts it enough, it's strong enough to balance it. So, yeah, and then, yeah, I just love the black, just cause you know I've done hella color, I've done tons of different stuff in my work, and then you know you were saying a fine line I used to do like hella mandala and all that stuff right.
Speaker 2:But my hands are jacked up from being a stupid kid and you know, fighting all that stupid shit. So I just love that big, big, heavy black.
Speaker 1:So like, what do you use to do all that big work? Like, what are you working with? Well, I use a variety of different machines.
Speaker 2:My friend Julie came over from France and showed me the machines that they use in France. Decalou Manu does a lot of just blackout sleeves like in an hour or two a full sleeve. What? Yeah, black it out, 100% blackout.
Speaker 1:Holy shit.
Speaker 2:And so they use, like a Mickey sharps, an old Mickey sharps. So Mickey sharps was a original coil machine from the US or from the UK and so he was a machine builder from the UK, so Mickey sharps. When I kind of started it was like when you got the Mickey sharps you knew that you were like on the road to getting it right. That's awesome A little Mickey sharps micro dial tattoo machine coil. But yeah, they modify that and put a motor or a fan on the side of it to cool it down.
Speaker 2:Because you're actually running that machine at 20 volts.
Speaker 1:So you're just going fast, Holy smokes 20.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 20 volts, just kick it up.
Speaker 1:Believe in an hour.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh my god, that was super like my day. It looks good, though Julie has one, it looks real good nice and solid and saturated. And then yeah, and then recently I've just been using a Numa, the Numa pen, so Numa is Carson Hill, used to have machines that were pneumatic, so actually ran on an air compressor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:But they discontinued. That. I always say the story of like when I was first starting in 2009,. That was like all the rage and by the time I could collect up enough money to buy it, they discontinued it Dang, and I was like shit.
Speaker 2:But anyways, he just started making the pens pen machines, but this is the one, because I got the original I can't remember the name of it, but the original one. It just wasn't powerful enough to do the heavy black, but they just put out a new one that has 50% more power. So I've been using that and the reason I use that when I'm at the shop back at home I use the machine that I built with the fans on it, just because it's just efficient. It's the right tool for the job. But when I'm traveling at a hotel, an Airbnb, I can't have that huge ass loud. You know, wham, everybody knows at the shop when I'm working, you know like they're like, oh, I guess Dion's in.
Speaker 1:Oh man, that's so cool yeah.
Speaker 2:So that is. And then for me it was just like the reason I started doing the big work is because I would do the small patterns, designs and motifs from my nation but on people who weren't from my nation and they were like our ancestral tattoo patterns and I was like I don't know how I feel about that. I feel like some of those things that were ancestrally tattoo patterns they should be left for our people in the placements that they we ancestrally would have tattooed them.
Speaker 2:Right. And so I was like, and that was just the experience, right, you don't know what you don't know and you just learn, and so and that's not necessarily for everybody either, but for me it was like I don't know how I feel about that, and so I was like, well, if we take that and we stretch it and we put it over a whole body, you're going to look at it and you're going to know that it's interior salish, but you won't know that that person is necessarily interior salish.
Speaker 2:Yeah so leaving those ancestral placements and those ancestral patterns for the places. We would have done them, you know, back in the day for our people. So you can look at it and go, oh, where are you from, right, like what's that? What's going on there? As opposed to a full body suit, like we didn't do that. So now that is a contemporary, intricate look that's cool Practice.
Speaker 1:I was wondering how you get it to be like full body, right? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just stretching it, yeah, just making it big, hell of big.
Speaker 1:Making it new. Yeah. Making it that contemporary right, that's kind of how I feel about my spider. Yeah, big time. There's two different versions that I got like the old, the one that's been here for so many years, and then my little new one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time, just putting your own touch on it and making it yours, yeah, so that's kind of the way that I've rolled into that kind of practice yeah.
Speaker 1:I love the black and red, like something in me tells me to only get black and red too.
Speaker 2:Oh, cool yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's yeah, my little flower that's on my back. It's black and red, oh nice yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting. Yeah, probably that symbolism would have been same for that side of your family too, because they're salish as well.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. Yeah, I was really excited and so, growing up in Oklahoma being just heavily surrounded by Cherokee culture, I haven't, I've only been. I lived on the Flathead Reservation in Montana between the ages of one and five. After my brother was born, we moved back to Oklahoma. So like I've been back to Montana maybe twice since then.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But like I'm still learning that side of, my traditional culture and history and stuff. So meeting you and having these conversations with you is just like really eye opening to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and I really I thank you for it. Yeah, there's a really good. I don't know if there's any tattoo patterns in there.
Speaker 1:I'm sure if we dig deep and look, we could find something.
Speaker 2:James Tates, the guy who did most of the anthropology and ethnographic work for us, as into Katmuc and into your Salish people, and he has a whole chapter on Flatheads Cool. I think you can find it online too.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:If you just message me, I have a copy of that at home.
Speaker 1:I love that as a PDF, so I could just send it to you. But yeah, all of that symbolism is obviously connected as well, yeah, that's the goal I have, because, like I've not that, I know that there is everything to know about Cherokee, but I'm just wanting to know more of that other side of me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just honoring that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bringing it forward.
Speaker 1:And I love like how the Salish artwork looks, because it's just so much different right. Than what? What Southeastern designs look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time. Yeah. That's why I've just started to post a few things from the Metis and the Hungarian, because that's where my dad is yeah, that's right, hungarian and Metis. So yeah, just bringing that forward, honoring him and that part of my ancestry bringing it up doing work inspired from there. Yeah any other things that come up for you?
Speaker 1:Your finger tattoos are something that I'm seeing and it's something that I've been doing a lot more of what I've noticed. I've done, like several pairs of these finger tattoos. Yeah, mainly on women. I haven't tattooed any men yet on the finger tattoos. Actually, I take that back. I have tattooed one man, but I think his finger tattoos were based upon a game character that he had.
Speaker 2:So I mean it didn't really have anything to do with natives, but shout out to him.
Speaker 1:Still cool. Yeah, still cool, still tough. Those finger tattoos are hard to get. They're not easy to get, but one woman who I tattooed I think she has other tattoos on her body but for sure the finger tattoos are the ones that you see and she works in an office where she's giving people papers and things like that and she's like I want people to know when I hand them these papers, when I see it and I was like that's so badass.
Speaker 1:And the finger tattoos for them mean different things too. So the very first finger tattoos I did on somebody, her name was Kelly Kelly Gonzalez. She's Cherokee, but she had three lines on all of her fingers and to her, those three lines represent her and her sisters. So I just wanted to know what's your connection? What do you know about the finger tattoos?
Speaker 2:Yeah, these, tell me about yours. These finger tats are actually. These were incised into bone implements, so they're actually rib patterns. So it's really taking some of those archival and museum examples of our ancestral patterns and then just putting them on the body.
Speaker 1:And how were these put in? Machine these are machine yeah.
Speaker 2:I got my. These are all intercontinental patterns, design symbols and motifs. You know, snake pattern, wave mountains with trees, and I always say, with our patterns, you know, a lot of times people will say, oh, what is it? And I always say, well, it depends who you are and how you look at it so if you notice that there's this inside of it. If you look at the outside as a silhouetted some mountain, if you notice this is empty, it could then be a house.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. So these are trees. You know, a Tulemat, a teepee we would have had. These are bat flying patterns from basketry, and then this is could be an arrowhead pattern, but then if you put it like that, it's a mountain, right? So just depends how you read it. So it's just important to understand the subjectivity of us as indigenous people is. It doesn't have to be one thing.
Speaker 2:It could be a variety of things, right. And then, yeah, these were in size, either on drinking straws or I think the one that I really took these ones from was from the end of a pipe. So the rib patterns and these, for me, just represent the ancestors. You know, keone Nunez is a Hawaiian cacao or the Hawaiian tattoo master. He says it's through our hands that our ancestors lives. Because you know, you're bringing those ancestral patterns to today and maybe some of your ancestors or the people you're working with, their ancestors wore those patterns, so you're bringing them back to life today through your hands and through your work.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That's what these ones are for.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, just important to bring those forward and just, you know, reimagine what those patterns could be. And I always talk about it as a form of visual repatriation, right, because those baskets, those pipes, all of that stuff is in the museum but it's not in our everyday life, right? And so when you can see your ancestral patterns, your ancestral visual language in your everyday life, it reminds you again of who you are, whether it's on yourself or on someone else right, You're just like ah, those are my people right?
Speaker 2:Or those people are connected to someone I know is from our people right. Because you know it could be someone else tattooed it, but you know.
Speaker 1:It's an identifier. Yeah, totally yeah.
Speaker 2:And not only even that, like if you're putting on someone who is non-intelkatmuk or non-cherokee, they're still wearing your work and you're the one who has the relationship to it. So that just means like oh, they're connected somehow right, yeah. And so for me, it's just repatriating that and, you know, saturating our everyday life with our ancestral visual language.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anything else that you were thinking about?
Speaker 1:I can't really think of anything, man, this has been a great talk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah, I don't think I can think of anything else. Super stoked to spend the next couple of days with you. You know, get to hang out at your shop where you do your work, visit some of your clients, do a bunch of stuff for the exhibition. It's going to be awesome. Yeah, I'm stoked to have been able to sit down and have this time with you and have this conversation. So thanks for visiting with me on the Transformative Marks podcast. I'm stoked to go on to what we're going to be doing next.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed. Thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Head on over to next week's episode, where I talk to Gordon Sparks, a MiG Maw, ancestral skin marker and wooden mass carver based out of Bathhurst, new Brunswick, and this episode we talk about forgiveness and personal transformation, and the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.