#007 Embark on a vibrant journey through the art of Indigenous tattooing, as I'm joined by Nahaan, a Tlingit tattoo artist whose skilled hands tell stories as old as time. Our conversation bridges the physical ink to the spiritual realm, uncovering the layers of personal growth and communal healing encapsulated in each design. Nahaan, with the wisdom of his grandmother's teachings, reveals how the centuries-old tradition of the potlatch ceremony intertwines with the resilience and reclamation of our cultural identity through the indelible marks of our ancestors.
Step into the sanctity of traditional tattooing, where every puncture of the skin resonates with an ancient song and honors the spirits that guide us. Nahaan and I dissect the essence of our environmental and spiritual connection, discussing how traditional hand poke techniques preserve more than just our artistry—they safeguard the delicate balance of our ecosystems and the sacred agreements within. This sharing of knowledge unfolds as a tapestry of stories, illustrating how non-electric tattooing methods maintain a harmonious existence with nature and fortify the fabric of our heritage.
The revival of indigenous tattooing is not merely an artistic movement; it's a testament to the undiminished strength of our cultures in the face of past and present adversities. We navigate the waters of cultural preservation and the significance of unity against the backdrop of cultural appropriation, fostering a community that educates and stands firm against the tides of commodification. With Nahaan's insights, we celebrate the resurgence of traditional tattoos as a symbol of empowerment, identity, and the unbroken thread connecting us to our rich ancestral wisdom. Join us as we honor the tapestry of Indigenous artistry, its evolution, and its enduring power to connect generations.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
Check out Nahaan's work at:
Instagram @chilkat_tattoo
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
#007 Embark on a vibrant journey through the art of Indigenous tattooing, as I'm joined by Nahaan, a Tlingit tattoo artist whose skilled hands tell stories as old as time. Our conversation bridges the physical ink to the spiritual realm, uncovering the layers of personal growth and communal healing encapsulated in each design. Nahaan, with the wisdom of his grandmother's teachings, reveals how the centuries-old tradition of the potlatch ceremony intertwines with the resilience and reclamation of our cultural identity through the indelible marks of our ancestors.
Step into the sanctity of traditional tattooing, where every puncture of the skin resonates with an ancient song and honors the spirits that guide us. Nahaan and I dissect the essence of our environmental and spiritual connection, discussing how traditional hand poke techniques preserve more than just our artistry—they safeguard the delicate balance of our ecosystems and the sacred agreements within. This sharing of knowledge unfolds as a tapestry of stories, illustrating how non-electric tattooing methods maintain a harmonious existence with nature and fortify the fabric of our heritage.
The revival of indigenous tattooing is not merely an artistic movement; it's a testament to the undiminished strength of our cultures in the face of past and present adversities. We navigate the waters of cultural preservation and the significance of unity against the backdrop of cultural appropriation, fostering a community that educates and stands firm against the tides of commodification. With Nahaan's insights, we celebrate the resurgence of traditional tattoos as a symbol of empowerment, identity, and the unbroken thread connecting us to our rich ancestral wisdom. Join us as we honor the tapestry of Indigenous artistry, its evolution, and its enduring power to connect generations.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
Check out Nahaan's work at:
Instagram @chilkat_tattoo
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
Like I said, the people who created the machines. They feel like they own all the designs as well. So when we have these conversations, it empowers each other to say, actually, you know what? I'm going to go to that tattoo shop and rip down all of the culturally misappropriated, fake, genocidal artwork that they got hanging in their shop and say you guys can't do this shit no more. This is our land. Yeah. If you don't like it, you all can go back to Europe or wherever else that is.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Casas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intlacopnik professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intlacopnik skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Nahan Nayaq. I'm a clinical tattoo artist. I'm a tattoo artist. I'm a tattoo artist. I'm a tattoo artist. My name is Nahan. I'm a clinical tattoo artist.
Speaker 2:My father was a Khaigani, haida. Thank you for agreeing to come hang out with me. You know, I think it was time for us to update that old interview we did back in 2015 or so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:New ways of thinking have developed, I think for both of us, since we started the work. You know different changes, just different developments as we learn. You know the perfection comes in the doing. I always say and I think that's one thing I always like to put out there for those who are coming up is you know, it's not about always thinking about that stuff, it's about doing it, and when we do it we learn about it. So I appreciate you taking the time to sit with me. Just tell me the journey that kind of brought you here to be talking to me on the Transformative Marks podcast. What's the journey that brought you into this work and anything you want to share about that. You mean tattooing in general?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, whatever you know, however you choose to interpret that is yeah, you know, I think this path especially was influenced by my grandmother, and so, like I can't talk about our culture without talking about her and also getting emotional about her Totally, and but you know, she really kind of took charge and said, hey, this is what you're going to do. She wasn't like oh, there's this if you want to do. She said no, you need to learn your language, learn your history, learn your culture, songs, dance.
Speaker 1:all that Because I told her I wanted to carve and I had to go ahead from somebody to apprentice under and she said you know what. You need to go learn how to put on a potlatch first. You need to know your relatives, you need to know all your history and your genealogy and then worry about carving later. I said okay, and so you know, recognizing that I always had an ability to create artwork and it was acknowledged by the people around me and I never took it too seriously. I knew it was something I could always do at a level that was catch the eye of teachers and whoever else.
Speaker 1:But actually applying myself to it and developing and further apprenticing and learning from masters was initiated, like you said, by the process of tattooing. Because when I started tattooing, people started asking me oh, can you do a shark design? Oh, can you do a fish design? Oh, can you do a beaver design? I'd never drawn those things before, I never tattooed those things, never carved them, and so I had to start getting more serious about our design style and recognizing that I needed help and then also reaching out to the right people to do it, to show me how.
Speaker 1:And that really was brought on by the process of tattooing, and through that I ended up learning from one of my teachers. His name is Nathan Jackson, and then the other one is Marvin Oliver. So these are pillars in my life that really helped establish a foundation and the walls to the house that I reside in, and that's really important to mention them. Also my father, roger Alexander really fundamental and just perspective. When people start doubting themselves and I think we all have those fears, doubts and securities those things come from other places, not from our traditions, it's not from our culture, it's not from our people, and so he was always able to be like of course you can do that no matter what it is, and so all of those things toss it in then ends up bringing me here in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:So, all my teachers, my mom holding me down to allowing me to represent their culture to the fullest extent, and then feeling that power herself and benefiting from that knowledge and that wisdom and that growth that comes along with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Just as you were talking, a couple things came up for me. I was able to attend the potlatch that you provided for your family, and so do you want to talk a little bit about that, especially because you did bring up your grandma and all of that? So, yeah, just talk about that and how important that was for you and the family and all of that. I think a lot of people don't understand even what that is, why that's important and what that felt for, how that felt for you.
Speaker 1:The primary thing that for me, what we call kuyik in our language means like a feast, an invitation to a feast, and during the memorial kuyik we have a portion where we bang staffs on the ground and at the end of that we are done mourning for that person, done grieving.
Speaker 1:And so it was really an amazing thing to learn that about our culture, that we already have ways of addressing grief, trauma, abuse, whatever it is. We got ways to address those things in our culture already there, because it's not a brand new experience what we're going through now. And so that last one that we did, that kuyik that we threw for my grandmother, ca, and also my uncle, sitka. He showed me how to hunt, he took me out to get my first deer and showed me how to butcher and everything up in Kachikan, and he was a dedicated language student who showed up to the classes that I facilitated and we practiced our culture gung ho. And so after people pass away in our culture, it's one of the most honorable things you can do for them to throw a kuyik for them. And basically it's just the time when people acknowledge that they were in grief.
Speaker 1:They're in sadness and one or two years after that point it's time to move on and let them, who walked into the spirit world, go where they need to go. We can't keep crying for them. It'll keep them from going on their journey. So, by celebrating their life, after demonstrating our grief and giving away wealth, and just showing that pride in what they left us with really is what it is, and honoring our community here today, which thereby honors their ancestors on the Raven side, so really it's just a big giveaway and a time to come together and work together as a family, as a unit, stand together, cry together and then heal together too. And then what that does is it demonstrates our ability to do that and a lot of us.
Speaker 1:We have this poverty mind state that we're taught and born into. We pass that on and we try to keep each other there. But when we do things like that and steadily build up over time, we can give away quite an amount of material objects and food and that sort of thing, and that's how our culture always has been, and so we have to get to a point where we can all be doing that sort of thing and encouraging each other to do so. That, kuih was really cool that you got to roll through and participate and tattoo me at that time.
Speaker 1:And that role is really important for us and so for everybody to see who you are and have you share your perspective and then demonstrate your work on somebody from our clan who's hosting. This is to verify it by everybody who's witnessed. They were paid to witness that and if anybody had anything to say about it they would have said it then. So that's the way we. The word is where you go notary public boom, that stamp is on there. It's as legit as you can get.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's really what it was about for us, and it's keeping us in the mind frame of we can create these things not just for this occasion, but these are things that we can also do for ourselves and just for our community in general. So it's about knowledge, it's about revival, it's about perpetuation of our culture and demonstration of wealth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's interesting. Something just came to mind as you were sharing about that is it's kind of the way that I think about it, or what came to mind when you said it was in giving away those monetary possessions actually demonstrates the fact that the relationship with your opposites and those who are witnessing is actually more important, more valuable than those possessions. So that's kind of cool. Just sparked in my brain as you shared that that it's like a clear demonstration that the things that are most important in our lives is actually the people, those relationships, those other beings that we share the world with, as opposed to those things that we can gather Right. So it's as if your ancestors are pretty dope.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, I'm thankful for my mentors who showed me how to do that and to understand that and to be able to demonstrate it through my actions, and those are things that I know not everybody has the opportunity to do, and so my mentors. I'm just always thankful for them and taking the time to show me how to do what they did. But yeah, it's about emphasizing relationship. It's about building that connection and, even stronger than it was before, showing you who we are, and so you get to feel that, not just hear me say that it's different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool and I just have to publicly say even though we're in our own little space here, it will be public at some point is I was honored to witness and to take part in that, Still feels my heart with joy to share that time with your people and your family and to give that gift to you and also to receive the gift of being asked. So I just lift you up in doing that work for your family and your community and for me and for all of us. So just lift you up for that yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool, you know, when you think about you know the one thing I know, since we, you know we've talked a lot but maybe not always recorded you do a lot of work now using more of the ancestral tools and technology in the skin marking. That you do, you know. I know you started for a brief time with machine and then now you're moving into and specifically, very specifically, only using non-electric tools. So do you want to maybe talk about that? And what was the for you, what was the importance of, you know, putting that machine away and stepping into, just to the hand tools?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I first started tattooing. The tools that I had at the time was a coil machine and then after that, I moved to Rotary and I worked with those tools from 2009 all the way until 2000, I think it was 18. I used machines and I had tried out a handful of times, but that was it.
Speaker 1:An interesting part of this is I had asked some song composers from my father's people to create me a tattooing song, so I knew that I needed to do that part of the process. For the people I was marking and to that vibration comes from a specific place, lands in a specific place and that can be medicinal for our people and not even just our people, but for everybody. And so I knew doing that work that was part of my job. Nobody ever told me that, but I knew that's what it was and the song would help me to do that. I prayed about it myself to get my own song and nothing came. Shortly after doing my first tattoo with hand poke, I went up to Niska Territory and Simpsian Territory and was getting some work done by Nikita, and during that time I'd heard a song and it was the process.
Speaker 1:Everything came at the time when there's four parts of that song for starts to that song and each one is for the directions, and so it's to call our relatives around us from our ancestral plane and just to say, hey, be here, witness this. So every time that we do it, we know what we're doing, we know the weight of it, and so it's to honor that weight. And so since that point, I realized, well, that song didn't come until I started doing hand poke. And when I started working with hand poke a lot more and focusing just on that, it created a different dynamic between me and the people I was working with, and they said it heard a lot less. And you know, it allows space for Conversation to happen, you know, because if you got a loud machine it's just like well, sounds like a chainsaw.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mine sounds like a chainsaw, yeah, and I think that.
Speaker 1:Sounds can be Triggers for pain, sounds can be triggers for healing, and so, if we, it's about the rhythm, it's about the pattern, it's about how our senses can allow us to Step into different areas that we need for for each other, for ourselves, for our community. And so what I noticed is that the, the hand poke and the skin stitch, and the, the uji, the hand tap work and ends up Allowing that space. And you know, even just last night, when I was doing uji, people were coming up and saying, oh, that sounds so good, yeah, it's like it's, it's hypnotizing, it's, it's therapeutic.
Speaker 1:They were coming and saying these things about just the way the, the process sounded, and they weren't even over here Like watching, watching you know, they just heard it, yeah and so those are good signs to me and I pay attention to that you know, even though I don't respond to them in that moment, I know that the sounds that we create, the vibrations that we create, have the potential for Positive effects on our people, even if we don't understand it happening. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And so I think that the hand tools allow for that interaction to happen. The other part of it is I try not to support the. You know, they dammed the rivers in Seattle, outside of Seattle, and there's the Columbia River. They got multiple dams going all the way up it. This means the fish can't travel, and Over there they have a story.
Speaker 1:The next claim people have a story about the original agreements. Those original agreements talk about how the deer would support the trees would support the salmon would support the people would support you know, the bears with the mountain, the, the soil, all the way down to everything has a, an agreement that everybody made at that time, and that agreement talked about Making sure that each other was safe and taken care of and would Would live in health for the next generations to come. That's the only way things are gonna get better. And and they say that when they put the dams up, the people put the dams up that the fish wanted to honor their agreement so much that they were Swimming up and hitting their heads on this dam.
Speaker 1:Yeah so much they would start bleeding, so much they would start killing themselves to fulfill that original agreement to us and to, to the rivers and to every all of creation.
Speaker 1:Our job and our agreement has been forgotten or Disregarded, and so that means we're supposed to take those dams down, we're supposed to fight for our relatives, who we made agreements with and Because long time ago we all spoke the same language. Yeah, and I think that's consistent through a lot of our tribes, and so it makes complete sense. Yeah, but so by not using electricity for something I hold as a treasure For our people and for our family, I like to bring people out to the, to the forest.
Speaker 1:Yeah next to the river, hearing the birds. Sometimes they don't. They've never even been to this place before. They don't even understand what's happening. And the sun is shining and, yeah, the leaves are really green and there's berries along. There's so much happening. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's also part of the process that I love bringing people to. Yeah, so those are some of the reasons why you know no electricity, no problem, and it's kind of me nodding to the, to the Understanding that we didn't always have this electricity. Yeah and we can be just fine without it. Yeah, practicing our ways of life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, yeah, it's interesting. A connection that was made in my mind as you were sharing at that. You know, just now the that you talked about the rhythm, and so in my mind what that sparked was the carving you know, the drum you know, because you're a singer as well, you share song, and so Then the hand poke, the tap, all of those things you know. It gives you a unique perspective and ability to observe those things when maybe others may not have that same training, right, that rhythm training that you talk about. So you know, that just kind of sparked in my mind as you were sharing. I was like, okay, I seen the drum, you know, I seen you know the ads work and the carving and that stuff and yeah. So I just wanted to share that as you were talking about that, I could see how, you know, you're uniquely Position to make some of those observations that maybe some of us can't because we don't have those gifts or haven't trained them, you know. So I just wanted to point that out and share that.
Speaker 2:You know, and one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast is to talk to people and share Excuse me as many perspectives as we can and you know, share those things that you know. Maybe you know we see things differently, but it's important for us to share those things and it's important for people who Share some of the ideas that you share or have a same perspective to feel empowered in Feeling those ways and being lifted up in their own perspective. So I really appreciate you sharing the Importance of why you do that work and it also brings forward and another thing that I never considered in the non use of that technology of the electricity, in terms of the destructive colonial projects, hydroelectric projects that have dammed the rivers, which you are putting forward when you Use that electricity. So I appreciate you bringing that forward and highlighting it and cheese.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's, it's integrated in you know, and it's Something that I think it echoes out not to just tattooing right, if I'm gonna be Out in the streets, you know, stopping traffic or doing whatever kind of thing needs to be done Also need to consider the other parts of my life and take a moment just to at least be like hey, I could do this differently and that might. Maybe. Maybe five fish made it you know, through that time because there's less demand for you know for that electricity at that time but the other thing is you know when.
Speaker 1:When you were talking is that you know the machines are, you know they're made by a specific group of people, and so I think that typically they claim an ownership or a prestige or you know a hierarchy over that machine, because maybe their people created it. And so when we return back to Old-school ways of doing things by hand, then it allows us the opportunity to feel More ourselves and it's it's a different relationship to time. Yeah right, because we're not Looking at our watch every so so often. To me, oh, how long you know, like this, it's more about Ceremony takes as long as it needs to take.
Speaker 1:Yeah if you do it right, if you prepare the best you can, it's gonna have a life of its own. Yeah, everything that's gonna need to happen is gonna happen there, and the people who are supposed to be there show up. Yeah the ones who benefit are gonna benefit, you know, and the supporters are gonna support you know, and all of that lines up. So how we relate to time when we use hand tools is a little different.
Speaker 1:You, know, and I honor that time that we enter into with the people that I, that I step into with that and I think it's a, it's a valuable. That's why part of the reason why things like sweat lodges so so healing, because you're not what. 5 30 pm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first round is done.
Speaker 1:Yeah and then at 5 37 pm, every time we get back in the lodge for the second round. Yeah, it's not like that. And you know, if we get back in touch with the rhythm of the earth, and you know, really that's what it is. You know, returning to the rhythm of the earth, honoring that rhythm, living that rhythm in every way that we can, especially with things that we hold sacred, things that we hold special, you know, return to that, you know, and it feels better. We're like, oh, why does it feel so good? And we go out into the forest and come back. You never come back, feeling worse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, big time come back feeling better every time same with the ocean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tides, you know, currents, all that moon, sun, yeah yeah again, again thing that comes up for me there is the same thing is when we were talking about the process of giving at the Kuwait and Building relationships. You know, of course, how are we going to Connect with and care for and really give a shit about the birds, the salmon, the bear, the deer, unless we build relationships with them. And the only way we can do that is by being out there, you know, by feeling the Sun, by feeling that water, all of that type of stuff. We can't build those relationships in the unless we're there. So, yeah, I think that's, you know, obviously a theme in the way that, as you presented and shared the ways that you have been Mentored, those lessons that you have learned, you know, are not just, like you said, in your words, but also in the actions, the ways that you move out into the world and how you share the gifts that the Creator has given you. So, yeah, it's pretty cool to Start to connect those dots, I guess, so to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those dots are constellated all around us, you know, and there's so much more to learn. Yeah you know, for everybody, and there's kind of that perspective where it's like, well, oh, they're still learning whatever it is, xyz they're still learning the tattoo. Yeah, xyz. Yeah and that's to say In a nice way, they could be getting better, or you know, yeah, they're not all the way there yet, but really All of us are.
Speaker 2:It's also there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're not there and you know saying that I think kind of Once they way wants to put a limit on people and where they're at. Yeah and the idea I think we should all be lifetime learners, you know figuring stuff up along the way, yeah, and picking up the good stuff you know, letting go of the stuff that we don't we don't need. Yeah and sharing that with each other, so we can lift each other up.
Speaker 1:Yeah remind each other who the fuck we are. Yeah, because we're trained out of that. Yeah, it's not our fault. None of that shit is our fault. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's important to acknowledge that. You know that fear, shame, guilt, that sense of not being worthy enough, you know, feeling like we got to bring other people down to put ourselves up, all that shit's not us. That's not you. Look at our teachings. You know I challenge people. If you, if you think that those things are us, you know, go back to your teachings, go back to your stories and figure out. You know that shit wasn't ours, it was brought here from somewhere else. You know those things aren't, aren't ours to.
Speaker 2:I'll hold on to and, like you said, it's important also to acknowledge those feelings, those thoughts, that way of being and acting. You know, if you're caught in that cycle, it's not your fault either, you know. But I always say and I've said it before, as you know, when you know better, you do better. So let's start doing better in those type of ways and and ways of life. And I just want to, you know, just kind of changing gears a little bit. We're here in Tyandinaga Mohawk territory for the Tyandinaga tattoo gathering in 2023 and I just want to ask you know, why do you think these type of gatherings are so important for the work of ancestral skin marking and sharing those marks with the people?
Speaker 1:mm-hmm. I think creating recreating access to the practitioners who hold their work in a specific way is really Needed in our communities, because there's, like I said, the people who created the, the machines. They feel like they own all the designs as well. So when we're we have these conversations, it empowers each other to say, actually you know what? I'm gonna go to that tattoo shop and rip down all of the culturally misappropriated, fake shit, genocidal artwork that they got hanging in there. Yeah their shop.
Speaker 1:Yeah say, you guys can't do this shit no more. Yeah this is our land. Yeah if you don't like it, y'all can go back to Europe or wherever. Wherever else that is. Yeah and just knowing that that's not like a some shit that we just laugh at nowadays. It's some shit that we can actually organize to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah and to unify and support each other Through as well. So Recognizing the different ways that our tattooing Echoes out into things like sovereignty, echoes out to things like re-empowerment, medicine, healing, community building. I mean, there's just so many aspects to it that are beneficial and needed in our communities that you know each of us has a little piece. Yeah of something, what what we're all doing. Yeah and we all have those different pieces for a reason. Yeah, and then when we we share that with other people, it's only gonna benefit them.
Speaker 1:Yeah we're not gonna hold that knowledge in a way that is like, oh I'm, I'm better than you, so I'm not gonna share that with you. That's not how you know. The reclamation of our tattooing is going to grow, right, and we want it to grow. We want our people to grow. Yeah, and that's what. What it's really about Education, the type of education that you can get from Listening to a fluent speaker Welcome you on to their land and Demonstrates you what, what love means to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah what Fun means to them. Yeah, what power means to them. Yeah that'll redefine what those things mean to us as we show up as guests. Yeah and allow ourselves to be hosted and be humbled and the greatness of the nations that we we attend. Yeah, and you know, that sort of yeah, I'd put me respect is Really what allows us to grow and become more human, reminds us to be, to be human and. Humble, you know too, and in that process, and so that's super important to yeah to go and celebrate with each other too.
Speaker 1:Yeah and not just always gather for death. Yeah a lot of our family only gets together for death. Yeah you know, I mean, and that's common everywhere, yeah, everywhere. And so you know, when we get together for something positive and uplifting and yeah we make it something very special. Yeah and at the youngsters, then They'll they'll pick up on it, they'll see what we're doing. Yeah maybe they'll take the next step and do it better. Yeah, and so they're raised in it now.
Speaker 1:Yeah whereas we didn't have that opportunity to be raised in a tattoo gathering environment. No, we couldn't just go over there and be like oh, these, that's uncle. Yeah, that's just what he does. He's the one who does that for all of his people. Yeah, that's uncle. Yeah or that's auntie. Yeah, you know, I can just ask them what that design means and if it's okay, yeah, or ask them how to do it, you know, even if they don't tattoo.
Speaker 1:Yeah they have an understanding and relationship to the process and that creates some an equal leverage point because, you know, carving, yeah, has has its point, weaving has its point, and Language and all these different things and tattooing needs to be in that same area. Yeah and so that's one of the reasons why I Think it's important that we gather together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that, yeah yeah, brings up to mind. You know, when we first met, you know in 2015, in our terror, and we had that conversation in Rotorua in the hotel room there. You know you made the analogy that you know our tattooing. You know a lot of you. I think you said you know paraphrasing. You know settle a lot of our people nowadays. You know they're not tightly woven together and that our tattoos have the ability to tighten us back up.
Speaker 2:You know, mend, mend some of those Wounds and that damage that's been done for a variety of reasons.
Speaker 2:And I believe you also emphasize the fact that it's not just the people that's being mended back together, but it's actually the nations, the communities you know across the globe that is brought together and mended in terms of the work that we're doing as practitioners and ancestral skin markers and and I would say that you know, just as you were Talking, I kind of got a smile because you know we've been doing this work for a little bit now and Seeing this gathering and these types of gatherings, you know really what would you say Confirms that intuition and those thoughts that you had back at that time when we were chatting?
Speaker 2:You know this place, you know coming to this gathering really confirms those things that you were sharing at that time. And I would also say, you know, even from my own work, I would say that, you know, when I think about the individuals that I've worked with, both with machine and with the hand tools, you know it does that, it brings them, it mends them, it makes them More whole, you know. So, yeah, I just thought it was cool to bring forward how those things that we were thinking about back then are just being, you know, manifested into reality now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's speaking, speaking it into into life and then Helping it you know along the way. Yeah, that's. That's always worth showing up for. Yeah, big time I know, and it's a lot of love.
Speaker 1:Yeah at all the gatherings, yeah, and I'm thankful to see the people show up, the community shows up. Maybe they never had access before to certain types of tattooing or certain designs or things like that, and so when we share that with them, that's also part of the building nation to nation. You got these folks who are Wampanoag and they got some clinket stuff on them you know, and they're, like you know, kind of reluctant at first to show it, but I was like yo, that's awesome, I'm not gonna be like, oh, you can't wear that.
Speaker 1:You know you're not from the coast whatever they're from the coast, but the different, the other side, you know the other side of the coast and they do a lot of stuff for their people.
Speaker 1:And was hosted by them just recently and it was an amazing experience, you know. So their generosity and their way of thought is really, really powerful. So the other part of that is just sharing the gifts. If you realize you got a gift for me, I love sharing it. You know, if this is something that's the best, that you feel is the best that you love the most, let somebody else enjoy it. See how it affects them. Maybe it'll do the same thing for them as it did for you.
Speaker 1:So that's part of that. Healing, too, is trusting that they'll wear those things in that good way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, yeah, and it's. I'm super honored, you know, to call you my friend, so I just want to again, you know, honor that, lift you up and let you know that I love you and care for you, and you know I'm always excited to go traveling and even excited to get those texts when you're now to our role without me.
Speaker 2:The little beautiful candy cakes that are at that beautiful coffee shop. Little picture oh, that hurts deep. I'm not there, but you know. Yeah, but I always love getting those texts. You know, a little bit of a jab.
Speaker 1:What do you do? Mark you're here.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and I would ask you know because that was the first time that we met, you know, in person. You know we chatted online and all of that type of stuff previously, but the first time that we connected in person was in Aotearoa what was the experience of going to visit? You know, a community, a nation and a culture that had been doing the work. You know they're way ahead and I would say that I take a lot of lessons from the work that they are doing in Aotearoa. And so what was that experience of going there and what are some of the things and the lessons that you've picked up from visiting?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, I think, yeah, their tattooing is impressive. They're Moko and I have, you know, some of the best I'm wearing, you know and I'm very thankful for that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And but it wasn't just that that impressed me, it was the fact that they also had their language, their verbal spoken language, and they had the different ways of presenting them. You know, the chanting, the incantations, the songs, all the different ones you know, and they're able to their vibration, to expand. That's their presence, you know, that's their message, and I feel like that was really what inspired me to see how they were conducting themselves, you know, and showing up for their guests, you know, and it was a really beautiful experience, for sure, and made some good friends, some good family, you know that comes to a point where you just gotta be like family and realize you know that's just what it is.
Speaker 1:You see somebody enough times and a lot of love and support, you know. Then there comes, you know that's family already. So I mean, I got their shirt on, I got on my face, I got you know, one of the bros marked my face right, so them holding that fire is really, really awesome, you know.
Speaker 1:And then also them nodding to the Samoans you know, for holding that fire, even like without ever letting it go out, and just learning more, like further into those different spaces. And hearing from those people was really important for me. You know, and I think for the longest time I didn't think there was many people doing the same thing, nor was it my concern. My concern was doing our people's design work. My concern was making sure people have access to it and bettering myself in the ways that I needed to. You know, that includes sobriety, it includes prayer, it includes holding my life in a certain way, and I think that you know the Māori brothers and sisters, they do a lot of the same kind of stuff. But, yeah, that hospitality, that's out there that Atoha is real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, you know, that trip for me, I think was very pivotal and very transformational just going to see the work that they were doing and also, like you said, that sense of kinship, that sense of family that was created through that experience.
Speaker 2:And, you know, as we are moving along in the movement, I'm finding it important to bring those younger ones who are coming up and sharing that experience with them. But, you know, having been thinking about that as well, I think it's also time for us to start doing some of those gathering places here, you know, in our lands and our territories here. And so, yeah, and just again, speaking that into existence and you know, so that we can start to imagine and to dream what those things look like for us here. And instead of us always traveling there, us bringing them here, I think is kind of the next step in the movement for us here to pick up and be able to share our hospitality, be able to share our hearts and our minds, our lands and our songs, stories, our languages, with them situated in our places. So, yeah, just speaking that out to existence, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I heard you say that earlier, I think yesterday or day before, and I think you know. I'm in agreement too, and it's needed Because it'll normalize, you know, some of that for us, instead of just doing the same stuff that we're always used to doing, it's okay to do something, you know, like a tattoo gathering. Let's do that. Might as well, have some singers.
Speaker 1:Might as well, have some food you know there and you know, let it be what it needs to be. And, yeah, that would be cool to bring together our people more, you know, because even though they're across the ocean, there still are people you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:And even if they're across colonial borders there still are people and so doing those type of events remind each other of that. You know, and I know we can get short-sighted sometimes with whatever worldview we get projected and then kind of poke fun or judge each other seriously in serious ways because of those things. But there's an opportunity there you know, and I'm in full support, and I've been thinking about that for the coast as well, you know, and how that would look, what it would be like, and there was some plans.
Speaker 1:I kicked around with one of my friends to do a dance festival next year, and because Seattle doesn't have something like that, where it's like full-fledged and bringing other people in and stuff like that, and so she asked me about it again a couple of times, and so she's an organizer too. She wants to make it happen, so I think we might just do that next year anyways. And then, you know, alongside that be like tattooing and dance festival, and just have some food and make it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have to be super big, super fancy, but it has to feel right, it has to feel good, it has to have the right people involved Totally, and I think it's one of the needs of our communities for sure. Yeah, big time yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, in this conversation as we've been rolling through, is there anything that's come up that you feel you want to share, or question or thoughts that come forward?
Speaker 1:I mean, as far as you know what we're doing is, you know it's getting to a point where, you know, the second wave of folks is coming out. Yeah, you know, and they're doing awesome work. Yeah, it's really cool to see and I'm super inspired by them. Yeah, and I think that's what they're doing and how they're doing it too. And you know, I'm glad that our tattooing is making its way back into our cultures with the same normalcy as we would talk about the painting, the paints we would use or the clothing we would wear Just common knowledge like oh, that'd be heights.
Speaker 1:Oh, that'd be this. Oh, it'd be that, yeah. And then are other people still around to do that, yeah. And I know a couple of people you know. Yeah, I want them to say the same thing about us. Yeah. You know to be like oh yeah, I know a couple of people, yeah, and if you don't like what they do, you can go to this other person. You know and they have this different thing going on so you can go to them? Yeah, there's options now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm excited to see where it's going to maintain its evolution. Yeah. And we need to, and that our people will reflect the evolution that is signified by the markings that we create. Yeah, because we can't devolve anymore. We can't, and no matter what this colonial society says, we can't devolve. We can't become smaller than we are. We can only get bigger, we can only get more powerful. And you know, I think the tattooing has the opportunity to demonstrate that. Yeah, and it has that spirit in there.
Speaker 1:I think it's starting to make its way out. Yeah, and I'm excited to help it, to help the spirit of tattooing evolve. Help the spirit of tattooing stay in an honorable way, to stay in a thoughtful way, to stay in an organized way, in an activated way in a spiritual way and because that portion of our practice has always been there it's not brand new. It's not optional.
Speaker 1:You know it's always been something. That's how we always were. We understood that Everything we did was like that, and so when we can return to that and remind each other of that work that's alongside it, then we're going to start seeing some real shit happen, Some real positive changes for our people. See it in the kids and the smiles. See it in the elders and their laughter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:You know, hear it in the songs we compose. That'll be what they sing in the future generations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, as Julia Mungiel Gray, our friend and colleague from Papua New Guinea, phrases it the new old. You know we are the new old. So, yeah, that's kind of what you're talking about and bringing forward and highlighting. And you know, I also want to acknowledge those young ones who are coming up as well. You know the integrity and the power that they do this work with. You know, you can see and you can. You know you can sense that little bit of nervousness as they come up to chat with you and you know as they're starting their pieces. But once they get into that work, you know, with their mentors there, you can see the strength that they do that work with the confidence that they're doing that work with. And you know it's powerful, it's so powerful to see these. You know, as you say, the second wave coming in and just standing in it.
Speaker 2:And it was cool to speaking with Echo. You know she was saying that. You know, and I didn't realize this, you know, because that's always been my dream is that this work is isn't special because it's a revival. It's special because, like you said, it should, that's just one of the things that we do, it's just part of our culture and so her sharing about her little ones coming up, going to tattoo gatherings, going being part of tattoo ceremony and that's just what they know, right, I thought was always my dream to think like one day our kids will just grow up and this is just part of everyday life, and to realize that that generation is already here. It just blows my mind and, you know, makes my I always say, makes my heart happy. You know, not just the smile but the inside, that joy of seeing those little ones who are rising up in this and it's just part of who we are, that's just so. Yeah, I just blows my mind actually.
Speaker 1:And the way that we can actually embrace each other through our designs and our work. That embrace. You know something you take everywhere you go from that point. You know somebody from that culture took the time and they invested in you and you invested in them and then so let that be beautiful, let it be done in a powerful way, let it be done in an honorable way, respectful way, healing way, you know just kind of allowing that to take life. You know making sure that it's done right. I think it's inclusivity that we need that allows us to grow.
Speaker 1:You know, if we can't hide anything, you know, I mean we can't be like oh, I only tell that knowledge to a specific. You know, even though some of my teachers who are clan leaders they'll say you know, all the carvers need their secrets all the weavers need their secrets. You know and I understand that.
Speaker 1:But, one of my other teachers has always been inclusive. He'll go tell, he'll get on national television and tell a traditional story. Yeah, you know, and that's one of the reasons why I tied to everybody and I don't put the teachings of my elders aside. You know, they took the time to share that with me. That's also part of the tools, that's part of the toolkit, and if I didn't have that I might do something different. But those are my teachers, so I choose to honor those teachings.
Speaker 1:I could have plugged my ears instead, but instead we had pancakes blueberries and shit. But yeah, it's dope to witness, just to be a part of it and to be chosen to do that. Do that work, play my part.
Speaker 2:And to witness it. That's part of the joy too. It's part of the work, I think, is witnessing it and lifting those people up, letting them know like good job, lifting them up sharing, and I would also say in other times, in that gentle, caring way, provide a bit of guidance. It's like, oh, that piece you did was really good, but there are some things that maybe we need to work on with you in terms of blood-borne pathogens, cross-contamination, or oh, hey, maybe you should try this needle instead of that needle that you were using. It might help you out.
Speaker 2:Those little gems that we've gathered on our journeys is like, yes, I acknowledge the beautiful work that you're doing, but here are some more tools for your toolkit. Not in a judgmental way, not in a shaming way, because that's that colonial bullshit, but in a way of encouragement. Take those little gems as little gifts, as opposed to little scoldings. It's not a scolding, it's a gift that says, hey, we're going to help, support you and bring you along. Though, yeah, I've enjoyed this conversation. It's been pretty cool to sit down with you and talk about these beautiful things and to reflect. I think it's been less of an interview but more of a reflection of the journey that we've taken individually, together and as communities. Just because so much of this journey has been with other people, I would say those young ones who are out there doing the work. Find opportunities to connect with other practitioners. You could be in a shop. You could be the only Indigenous person in your area, in your community, in your culture. There's a large group of us out here now doing the work. Take that time, invest that money to find your way to one of these gatherings and come up in that respectful, humble way and help out.
Speaker 2:Don't expect that you don't have that expectation that you deserve everything, but come up sharing, come up giving, come and ask hey, do you need anything to be done? That's what I was sharing with Heather is that people expect us to always give, but sometimes we have to pick and choose those people that we share with as mentors. And some of that knowledge, yes, we should give it away and share it, but sometimes we have to be very picky about how that happens. Come out, build relationships and you will get those gifts and those gems, even if it's just by listening, even if it's just by watching.
Speaker 2:It may not be that somebody picks you up and takes you under their wing, but you're still going to get those little gems from the conversations that you hear. You're going to get those little insights by watching, observing, learning. Those are some of the ways I'd go trapping with my uncle. He wouldn't really say this is the thing that we do, I just watch. Eventually he'd be okay, you go make the bobcat trap, you go make the little hut and I'm like okay, those are all our ways as well is just to come and show up and take that time, spend that time, build those relationships.
Speaker 1:Definitely in traveling to these different spaces. I went to Borneo and they had a really strong tribal traditional tattoo practice there. They have it in Hawaii in.
Speaker 1:Samoa, in Tonga, in Tahiti, in Alaska, getting there too In Taiwan, and there's a lot too, even the Philippines, the Amazon, africa. Just taking the time, that's a big part of, I think, prerequisite for understanding the weight of what it is and integrating that knowledge base into what it is that we're doing. Just that travel is that huge educational opportunity Equipping yourself as a body marker or as a tattoo artist to be prepared to go and travel to these other folks To share what you know and to learn what they offer, to listen when spoken to, and all that. It's just part of it. It's a big part of it. It ends up benefiting everybody involved Instead of just saying I'm going to go to this shop and I'm going to stay in this shop, then that's it.
Speaker 1:Go to this different part of the world, just be there for a little bit. Maybe you don't even go to a tattoo shop, maybe you never even talk to a person who does tattoos. You just go sit with an elder and be open to that conversation, to people who you might not normally talk to, because even in the city we've got folks who sleep outside and they'll come up and you show them kindness. There's some jewels there too. There's jewels there. I swear. Multiple times I've heard my ancestors speak through these folks sleeping outside.
Speaker 1:I do my best to take that time to listen and offer up what I can, no matter where I'm at, because we can learn from everybody, from kids, from folks sleeping outside, from folks of privilege, folks without privilege, from the trees, from the waters, from returning to that knowledge base. That's where it all comes from anyway Stars and the sun. So talking about that returning, it's not so much a revival but a realization. It's a realization that we have to do those things. It's only going to benefit us.
Speaker 2:Yeah waking up to that reality Coming out of that slumber, that drunkenness of the colonial project. I just want to briefly touch before we move on and wrap up. In the beginning of the conversation you had talked about walking into those shops that are stealing our shit. I don't know if I've expressed it in another episode of the podcast, but when I originally imagined doing a podcast, the original name was the who's Stealing your Shit podcast.
Speaker 2:I decided to take a little bit more of a positive turn, but I think it's important to talk about these issues and concerns.
Speaker 2:When I listened to other tattoo podcasts, western American tattooers really dismissed this idea of cultural appropriation and this idea of the misappropriation and, I would say, the theft and the damage and the hurt that is caused by the taking and use of our designs, patterns, symbols and motifs, which are very much connected not only to our culture but to our actual individual identities, our family histories, the stories of our communities and how we came to be.
Speaker 2:A lot of that is really missed when people just look at it as a beautiful design. A lot of that stuff is pushed over and the way that I speak about it is it's really another step in the colonial project of genocide, where it's actually the erasure and the theft and the invisibility of our people, always being seen but never being heard. People say, oh, yeah, yeah, cultural appropriation, but that just means you got your fucking ears closed. So take notice and realize that that shit's harmful, that shit hurts our people. You might take a beautiful craster, a clan symbol or design from the northwest coast and you put that on there, but that's actually the story of someone who did something amazing and then that comes to life every time that tattoo and that name is given. So, yeah, I just wanted to highlight that and bring that forward and just ask for some reflection on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. These colonizers want all of our beauty but none of our struggle. You know that struggle is what they caused. They don't want to look at that because that would make them feel either guilt or like they need to do something about it. They don't want to be accountable to what their ancestors did, but they always benefit from what their ancestors did at the same time and they're playing us to try to pretend like it's not a big issue and it actually is, but it's also. You know, these colonizers are just. That's their culture it's theft.
Speaker 1:Their culture is genocide, their culture is destruction. Their culture is those things and it's a hard pill for them to swallow. That it echoes out in all these different ways, even in the creative arena where they're doing tattoos, and that idea that they don't have to listen to the people whose culture that they're stealing from is an echo of what their ancestors have done. You know the complete disregard and dehumanization of all of our efforts, of all of our stories, all of our land. And because they don't have that they want to do, they can identify with it on a certain aspect, they can appreciate it visually and they can say, oh, native Americans were a strong past, tense type of people, whatever, whatever. But by doing so, it is that erasure, it is that disregard, it is that sweeping their history underneath the carpet so they don't have to actually be accountable to it. You know, and I've organized I wrote a piece and it's about reclaiming our stance on tattooing and I got 30 or 40 of us indigenous tattoo artists to sign that document and to agree with what we say in that and to have that available for use towards people that we see stealing our shit and to say it's not just me saying this it's not just one person's opinion, because that's one of the other things that they say oh, you're just, you know, an angry Indian you
Speaker 1:know, so that means to them they don't have to listen to the angry Indian. Yeah, but if enough of us express a common message in a way that we command what's happening, then they have a better chance of receiving that message when we're unified. There's nothing more powerful than a unification of indigenous people who are organized, who know what the fuck needs to get done and how the fuck to do it, and motivated to do it and lifting each other up. In that way, some amazing shit can happen and we haven't even seen.
Speaker 1:Haven't even seen a fucking a tenth, a thousandth of what that actually is and. I think, because we're organizing and tattooing in these other areas, we're gonna have these conversations where, like bro, it's not just this yeah bro, how can we support you guys over there? Yeah, bro, it's really happening in your community. I know it's not what they show on the news yeah. I know it's not what these colonizers are saying about your people yeah so what's really happening?
Speaker 1:yeah and how can we fucking change that? Yeah, so yeah, definitely genocidal artwork. Yeah, is what these colonizers do anytime that they try to imitate our designs yeah and I've always said that in front of experts on my culture who are of colonial descent yeah and they don't like that, but also it's something they have to be reminded of. Yeah, because it's not their place it's not their, not their shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's almost like if I were to take the fucking crown jewels of you know whatever the Britain yeah, the great, great, stolen Britain crown jewels. Yeah, and just half-assed it like, yeah, scratched up the gems and brought that around and was like, oh, this is chopped it up, yeah and it's only like fragments and like bits and fairly, you know, barely even resembles what the fuck it actually was.
Speaker 1:You know, and but you know, I think we're also saying that we're seeing a shift in the consciousness of these colonizers right now, yeah, and it might not be happening everywhere, happening everywhere, yeah, but it's happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when we have these real-ass conversations with them, yeah, and we can spice it just enough yeah so we, we get our fucking message across yeah and we show up and show them, yeah, then they're able to understand a bit of that now, yeah, and what you sometimes have to do is say, yeah, you guys are fucking up yeah this is why and this is how you can change it. Yeah, this will bring respect to what you're actually trying to do yeah this will bring education to what you're trying to do yeah this will bring kindness and consideration yeah these are things that are fucking rare in our, in our environment now yeah they fucking made it that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they fucking made the poverty, yeah if they wanted to change it. They could they choose not to yeah, big time so all of that shit is established in a way to benefit them yeah and they don't want to hear that shit either. But once we point that out and say, hey, this one small portion you could change just a little bit yeah and it fucking actually help us out yeah make it clear, lay it out. Yeah, I've recently seen some positive shit happen yeah and been helped out by these folks.
Speaker 1:I call my friends now yeah these colonizers who were fucking strangers before. Yeah you know, we could see each other and not even yeah bad and I about each other yeah but now we're in a place where we're like hey, I know, I know you're about to adopt your your relatives child. Now, how's that how you feeling about that? Are you, are you ready? Yeah you know like oh yeah, you know fucking.
Speaker 1:So we have like some real ass conversations about that too yeah and so I'm I'm happy that's happening yeah it needs to happen more yeah and when we talk about things like reclaiming what's ours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the kindness is ours it's always been ours, the love is ours, the generosity is ours.
Speaker 1:We're reclaiming that too, and our land will return back to us. Yeah, not just the fucking gatherings, or you know, us coming together for whatever it's, we're gonna have the authority to say this building is here yeah we're fucking taking it back. Yeah, we're gonna use it for whatever the fuck we want yeah, big time and we're not gonna pay you guys shit for it, because you guys are here on stolen land. Yeah, nobody asked you to fucking come over here yeah what the fuck you guys still doing over here, pretending like it's your place? Yeah, yeah, sent your fucking home yeah you know shit like that.
Speaker 1:And then seeing, seeing the colonizers, like you know, nod their head, you know like, and try to connect those dots for them too sometimes yeah and knowing when it's right, like discernment, knowing like how you're saying, knowing that discernment yeah if I say this to this person, it's gonna benefit them yeah it's work for me yeah but if that little bit of work is gonna help out all of us, yeah. I could tell them that, for for right now yeah.
Speaker 1:I could, I could school them up, I could game, game them up on this shit yeah so that they understand yeah that I took the time that I showed them our people's kindness yeah. I showed my people's generosity yeah, I showed my people's love yeah. I'm not gonna fucking do that with everybody yeah but with the ones I know that were potentially down to help us back yeah, I will you know? It's a beautiful thing, yeah, beautiful thing to see happen yeah definitely make sure we're all still read on the cameras.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when I, you know, thinking about all those things, I think it's also a powerful lesson that I've even learnt myself for a time working in the form line. You know stuff that I'm not connected to ancestrally, realizing the power of that and also realizing the power and the beauty of our own symbols. You know, for a time I was doing that form line work with help and encouragement from my coastal brothers and sisters, but I realized that it was actually pushing out and taking up too much space in my own practice, so I didn't have the time and the ability to learn my own visual language. You know and I think that part of that was also understanding the programming that I was given by the colonizer about my own ancestral visual language.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of the powerful, beautiful design, symbols and motifs from your community and our friends and colleagues along the northwest coast, the Haida and the Simchan and the Helsik and the Niska. All of those designs are put up and you know, for me, coming from a community that doesn't have the same style, you know it's like ah, you feel like those are less than you know. You. You know that programming of like that savage right is in there, and so it was really a process of coming to a point where I'm like realizing the beauty and the magnificence and the brilliance and the power and intelligence of my ancestors and our own visual language and the only way that I could actually do that was by, you know, not practicing those other things that you know.
Speaker 2:I only had a peripheral relationship to you know, through friends and colleagues, but it was when I, you know, looked at our visual language. I seen the power of my community, I seen the intelligence, all of those beautiful parts of my community, and that's a part of pushing away those colonial narratives that say that we're savage, say that we're on civilized, that it's simple and all of those type of things. Right, so for me is just, you know, in saying all those things is to give encouragement to other people who are from other communities, who may have those same thoughts, feelings and emotions, to put down those patterns, designs and motifs that are not from your community and give this space to explore the brilliance and resilience of your ancestors, as demonstrated, woven, written, beaded, you know, sewn into your clothing, into the baskets from your community. Go to those places and learn the visual language of your community, you know, and take a step back and realize that you know you're only contributing to your community by using your communal, visual, ancestral language.
Speaker 2:You know, I think it's time for us, as non-coastal folks, to step away from those designs that don't belong to us. So just a, I guess, a nugget of wisdom that I've learned from my own experience and to share with for those little ones and those young ones who are coming up, to keep in mind that you know, yes, woodlands art is beautiful, yes, northwest Coast form line is beautiful, but that's not yours, and so we need to give room and space to grow within our own communities, in our own visual languages. I just wanted to share that, just because it comes up and show the encouragement and the growth and the reality that you know, if we don't know better, you know we can't do better. But now that we know better, we're doing better.
Speaker 1:And so you know, maybe you got some of that work, maybe you did some of that work, but now it's time to put that away, unless you're connected to it, and start to build on, build up your community, mm-hmm yeah, I think, as as somebody who does our designs full-time and makes the living from it, and I think that it is nothing more beautiful than somebody who represents their culture, represents their designs, represents their genealogy and their, their lands, you know, and brings that message around.
Speaker 1:That's, that's powerful you know, what I mean and that's what makes the world what it is. You know, I mean that's what makes the universe as diverse and intricate and and valuable as it is that's what we need. You know, we can't have a forest just full of cedar trees yeah you know, there's so many different species out there that reflect the land, and the land reflects the trees and the sky, and all of that is so connected and yeah based on the space, where, where we're at or where we're from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's. You know, I have been one of the voices to kind of try and command that space and say you know, are you from that people? Yeah, you know. What tribe are you from? Yeah, why are you doing our shit? You know, and somebody has to. Yeah, you know at some point. But also I understand that people are brought in for reasons. Yeah, they're shown specific things for a reason, and the ones who invested that knowledge and that you know that understanding have wisdom enough to share that with specific people who they trust, yeah, and and that they love and appreciate yeah you know, and that's, that's, no matter what culture we go, go and visit yeah somebody shares their treasure with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a huge gift yeah, hell, yeah, that's an epic gift. You know I mean, and so it's. It's a way to honor that relationship. You know too, yeah, when somebody says, yeah, I want you to do this design do this for me yeah or hey, let me show you how to do that yeah because I know that's your interest, and yeah.
Speaker 1:I can tell you what that's about. Yeah, and you know, let me show you yeah, and then it just happens. You know, I mean that's, that's love. Yeah, that's love, you know. So, even you know there's, there's coastal folks who are from different tribes, you know, in the Sailor Sea area, and one of my students right now he's he's Makah yeah and he's also several other of the Coast Salish tribes and you know some of the concepts that I show him.
Speaker 1:They come from our people, you know. And as far as carving goes, and I kind of joke around and say, watch, now he's, he's starting to be a prominent carver mm like right away yeah and watch their whole people's design change. Yeah, because somebody was like hey, bro, you're my fucking bro. Yeah, you know if this is something you're into yeah this is just how we do it yeah take it or leave it yeah, big time you could.
Speaker 1:You could take it and run yeah you know we're all trying to get better, yeah, and so you know ways of understanding and ways of teaching, like that knowledge, that wisdom we are. It's the same thing as our designs yeah, you know we share that, we share that knowledge, we share that wisdom because it has a physical effect on our body yeah it has a mental benefit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has a spiritual and an emotional engagement yeah that often is left to the side, but it actually benefits us yeah in that way, and it's like sharing your your favorite elder with somebody. You bring them to their house and say, hey, this is my favorite elder yeah they make this, this fucking coffee yeah make this. They make this fucking cookie yeah you're gonna think different, you're gonna feel different after you sit with this person yeah, that's what our knowledge is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you'll feel nourished and the designs do the same thing. It's a reflection of of that, that background work. But I see, like you know, a lot of co-salish folks doing form line stuff, yeah, and I think that's cool. But also all of my tell them, you know like, hey, you guys have a really rich and beautiful design style too. That's co-salish yeah and you guys should really focus on that shit yeah, and let us do our shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I ain't never done your shit. Once you know I mean, and that's waiting for you. Yeah, that door is there yeah whether you choose to walk through it. Yeah is your choice. Yeah, that's something you can do for all your people, though, yeah you know, for me the doors fuck our doors already been open. Yeah, fucking, halfway got thrown through that door yeah, you know, I mean yeah, and so there's nothing more beautiful than people representing their own shit yeah you know, and being lifted up by other folks around them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sharing that. I mean, that's how we got our fucking ox the octopus bags yeah they claim us a clink of thing. They got that shit all the way on the east coast way out here yeah and they called an octopus bag too yeah you know what I mean. So there there was a point in time. Sure, design, space, the, the beating, everything, the technology, we all shared that shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we all shared that yeah and not one is better than the other. No, whatever works for that time that's best is best yeah you know, and if somebody got that, you know I mean that's, that's what it needs to be, yeah, and that's that's all good, and also get the struggle. You know, I mean I get, I get the. You want to do some shit that sells. You know, that's kind of one of the things yeah that we're all faced with this bullshit, capitalist society survival we got to say you know, I gotta pay these bills yeah but who told us to do that shit?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, I mean, and we're out here feeling like that's our primary fucking obligation this lifetime, you know. And so if you're gonna do some shit that'll sell better, then a lot of people will be like, yeah, I'm about to do that shit yeah at least I'm not stealing some shit from somebody, at least I'm not doing this shit with drugs. At least at least you know, I mean, and I understand that, I understand the struggle of fucking poverty.
Speaker 1:I know what poverty is you know, but also I understand the obligation to keep shit real yeah and to get better and to improve yourself. You know, and yeah recognize the wealth yeah it's there already. Yeah, big time we could sleep on it, or not? Yeah one of my teachers is, he always would say e2yayati the cut that e2yayati. His name was David Katzik and he said everything is already within you. Everything, not even just some of the things, yeah, not even just parts. And like the biological aspects, yeah, you know, mineral liquid, yeah, gas yeah not just those, but everything.
Speaker 1:The whole universe is inside you. What you mean? You can't do that shit. Yeah, you know how great he. Just look at me and be like do you know how big your potential is? Like you don't even know. Yeah, you have. No, you think you know mm you have no idea, I'm telling you. Just be shaking his head and laughing and so that type of that type of shit is really part of our people need that. Yeah, our people need that, and he would tell everybody that yeah didn't matter where they're from yeah you know.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's part of it too. Yeah, you know, factoring in all of that understanding and into how we reflect our patterns, our designs yeah you know so and sharing that is miss Huge thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I would say you know the way that I express it is the rights, relationship and responsibility to those designs. So you know, part of that Relationship and the responsibility is given to you as an ancestor, a descendant of that ancestor. Another part of that is gifted to you, like you were expressing Somebody's investing in you from their culture as a gift, you know, and giving you those Responsibilities. You know that relationship to those patterns, designs, motifs and symbols comes through that relationship you have with that individual who gifted you that knowledge. So, yeah, acknowledging and that that phrase acknowledges all of those things and, yeah, just putting forward to Ensure that when you're doing that work, to ensure that you acknowledge where those, where the right to do those things comes from, from the, the relationships that you have to that knowledge, to those design symbols, motifs, tools, technology, and also Acknowledging that those two things also give you responsibilities.
Speaker 2:You know we a lot of times we forget, yes, we talk so much about rights. You know this is my right to do this, my right for this, and it's like, well, with every right Comes a responsibility. So let's not be blind to that and to remember it and to ponder it. You know, when you're doing it, think to yourself okay, I'm doing this thing, well, what's my responsibility now that I'm doing it? Is it the fact that I have to, you know, give something back? Mm-hmm, right, you know what are those things that you need to acknowledge and to share as you do that work?
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally, I think about that when it comes to Doing oehi work. You know the tapping work and it's not something I asked for, but it was something that was given to me and so, yeah, responsibility and for a for a long while I didn't, I didn't use them. Yeah because I was kind of like yeah you know, that's kind of a big thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so I was given tools by several different different folks from the islands out there to do that, and I Think that's a huge honor and, like you're saying, a huge responsibility to. Yeah, and I think it's. It does have that responsibility. You know where you're, you hold it in a certain way.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know, and you bring those relatives out as a guest. Yeah, you know, and I've had Some of my my brothers watch me as I work and some of my sisters do Watch as I work and give me some pointers along the way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Keep an eye on me, man. Let me know if I'm doing this shit wrong or what if I'm fucking up, you know. Let me know, yeah, big time, and All thumbs up, all encouragement from anybody that I sat with and I do hold it in that way and a great reverence. Yeah you know, and I feel like it's important to hold other people's treasures in that way. Yeah also Our treasures. Yeah, also the treasures that we give me to other people big time, no, and that reverence is is something where the energy will change.
Speaker 1:Yeah whatever it is that you're doing, yeah, this it'll change. And Whether it's hunting or fishing or you know, no matter what it is walking, if you walk with reverence, you know for all of creation you wake up and you're like. You know that rain is amazing. Yeah. It allows me to live. Mm-hmm. You know, instead of being like oh, you know, boo, you know it's raining again it's terrible weather outside. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:We've been. We've been taught away from a lot of the powerful aspects of being who we are. Yeah you know, so that's a responsibility to yeah, big time you know by being born who we are that's a big responsibility and so Just walking in that way.
Speaker 1:So where where we can, we can do that that we can do that again and when you, when you have one of the other phrases is a aya kwa hei gu kudzu tis ta kat at. Everything has a spirit and that goes right along with with this, what we're talking about. Yeah, and so if you treat that kindness, that spirit of you know your language with kindness and with encouragement, then the spirit of your language will be Approach you in the same way. Yeah, it's a reciprocal relationship. Yeah, no matter what it is. Yeah and so if you do something right, if you hold yourself in that way, yeah that's just gonna happen, naturally, because you're, you're putting that out there already.
Speaker 1:Yeah and people can recognize that. Yeah, and they want to honor that too. I want to feed that fire. Yeah, I mean and I think that's a Special part of being human. Yeah, big time special part about being Not even just indigenous, but just like of the land. Yeah, big time of the ocean, you know, I mean of the stars. We all got these different teachings that tell us about, that, remind us and then so what are our responsibilities coming from this place?
Speaker 1:Yeah what do we protect? What do we defend? Yeah what do we organize? Yeah, what do we love? Kuscha and in stakat that we we Put love with everything we do. Yeah to sa on in stakat that we put kindness, everything we do, you know, and we just use that that. I think that's a really good gauge. Yeah for what? How we live, yeah, and when? When it seems, like you know, we're going up against an enemy.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm but if that enemy is continually putting your people down, continually killing your people, yeah then you're showing kindness to your people for defending, yeah, them, and fighting those, those ones that are oppressing you. Yeah so that that way that we look at that perspective is is really important to the whole uphold to yeah, it's not rage, it's not vengeance, it's just defense. Yeah it's defense if somebody continually does something that's not yeah. Healthy or for for your people, Then you know we got to figure something out.
Speaker 3:We got to got to change that yeah doing that warrior shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and I Think that's needed. Yeah, there's a lot of matriarchs now self-proclaimed, a lot of you know chiefs and yeah. Kind of who. She said this one thing she's like a Too many chiefs and matriarchs, not enough warriors. Yeah, you know. And and what does that look like? Yeah, how do we function in that way? Yeah and how do we, how do we Support these other components that are also involved in our cultures? 100% yeah cuz we're allowed.
Speaker 1:We're allowed to do our shit now. Yeah, we're allowed to practice. They made laws now where we can be Indian again. Yeah, after they. Don't fuck this up so much. Yeah but as long as we don't Get you fired up, yeah, as long as we don't organize militarily. Yeah, as long as we don't pack our weapons with us.
Speaker 1:We were our ancestors always did. Yeah, you know, unless it's a trip to tell each other like, oh, why would you Carry a that weapon or a knife or a gun? Or, yeah, why would you know how to be a black belt or self-defense or choke people out. Yeah, you know, so that's not peaceful like. Hmm. Well, neither is these people mobbing up on us and doing this shit to us every single day. Yeah. I'm just knowing these things. Yeah, you know, that's all. Yeah, big time so, but yeah yeah, you know as we.
Speaker 2:I Just you know. Thank you for the conversation. I think it's brought a lot of powerful, beautiful things forward. Some challenging thoughts, some challenging ideas, you know, for myself and probably for those who are listening you know, no matter where they're coming from. So I appreciate you sharing your heart and for Doing the work that you do. You know I hold you up in that work that you do, in your family and your community, and I would even say within yourself.
Speaker 2:You know each of us are doing that powerful work that maybe is invisible to other people. You know, as we move through our lives and change and transform, you know I can speak for myself. You know I'm not the person I used to be. You know I'm not. You know I don't act in the same ways that I used to act because of the the journey that I have taken.
Speaker 2:And you know we talk about this healing stuff and sometimes we don't allow each other to heal because we keep bringing up the shit that they did in the past.
Speaker 2:You know, like how are we supposed to heal if you keep bringing up that one time I was drunk and did some crazy shit? You know that's not allowing me to heal, that's ripping that band-aid off again and again and again. You know we have to allow each other to heal and to move forward, and so I just thank you for the work that you've done in your own life. And then you know as that ripples out into your family, your community, you know, into that larger circle, the influence that is our community, our larger community, indigenous community, and then the community of all that is including, you know, those that swim in the water, you know flying the air, those that take root and those that walk on the four lakes. You know those trees, all of those things. So thank you for that work that you do. I just lift you up in that and, you know, as always, give you love and care and compassion For those things that you need to do and they whip the journey and the trail that you need to walk upon.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm yeah she's a lot of love for you, bro. Thank you and appreciate you and all the efforts that you're putting forward. Yeah, you know, helping amplify the voices of our people, organizing and putting forward a lot of effort and sacrifice and. That energy doesn't go unacknowledged you know, yeah, and even if some of us don't say it, yeah, you know we all appreciate it. Yeah, and we all lift you up to thank you, everybody, you know, Everybody that I, that I talked to it, was like oh yeah, no, that's my fucking bro man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's the fucking best. Yeah you know so cool. That's what. That's what I say Everybody, yeah, and so yeah, lifting you up, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me Through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you Following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you were amazing, that you were loved, and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better Through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Head on over to next week's episode, where I talked to Tristan Jenny, a cre artist based in Edmonton, alberta. In this episode, we talk about the importance of self-care and the balancing of family in a hustling and bustling tattoo career, and the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.