#010 Sitting across from me, Terje Koloamatangi, a Tongan cultural tattoo practitioner, shares his ink-infused wisdom, revealing how each etching on our skin can tether us to our ancestors. As we savor the ceremonial kava, Terje recounts his initiation into tattoo artistry under the tutelage of a Samoan master, igniting a passion for reviving traditional Pacific methods. Our conversation takes you through the heart of Tonga, where the ritualistic kava ceremonies are not just about drink, but about connection, history, and the indelible marks of identity.
The late Paulo's legacy casts a long shadow in our discussion, as we honor his seminal role in the Pacific tattoo renaissance. His untimely departure left a chasm, inspiring Terje's journey into the depths of tattoo research and ultimately birthing the Indigenous Ink Tattoo Festival. Here, tattoo artists from distant corners of the earth converge, sharing stories and skills, and celebrating the vibrancy of ancient traditions in contemporary culture. We honor the connections forged in ink and flesh, and the collective effort to keep the embers of traditional tattooing aglow in our global village.
The final strokes of our dialogue paint a picture of cultural authenticity that transcends the mere tools of the trade. We share stories of inspiration drawn from war clubs to whispering tattoos, underscoring the belief that genuine expression is bound not by the implements, but by the spirit behind the symbolism. As we venture through museum 'junk drawers' and reflect on rediscovered Tongan tattooing instruments, we invite listeners to grasp the tactile history and the importance of preserving the visual languages that define our shared human tapestry. Join us in a reverent exploration of the ink that writes our past and inscribes our future.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Terje at:
Instagram @terje_k
YouTube: @terjekoloamatangi2946
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
#010 Sitting across from me, Terje Koloamatangi, a Tongan cultural tattoo practitioner, shares his ink-infused wisdom, revealing how each etching on our skin can tether us to our ancestors. As we savor the ceremonial kava, Terje recounts his initiation into tattoo artistry under the tutelage of a Samoan master, igniting a passion for reviving traditional Pacific methods. Our conversation takes you through the heart of Tonga, where the ritualistic kava ceremonies are not just about drink, but about connection, history, and the indelible marks of identity.
The late Paulo's legacy casts a long shadow in our discussion, as we honor his seminal role in the Pacific tattoo renaissance. His untimely departure left a chasm, inspiring Terje's journey into the depths of tattoo research and ultimately birthing the Indigenous Ink Tattoo Festival. Here, tattoo artists from distant corners of the earth converge, sharing stories and skills, and celebrating the vibrancy of ancient traditions in contemporary culture. We honor the connections forged in ink and flesh, and the collective effort to keep the embers of traditional tattooing aglow in our global village.
The final strokes of our dialogue paint a picture of cultural authenticity that transcends the mere tools of the trade. We share stories of inspiration drawn from war clubs to whispering tattoos, underscoring the belief that genuine expression is bound not by the implements, but by the spirit behind the symbolism. As we venture through museum 'junk drawers' and reflect on rediscovered Tongan tattooing instruments, we invite listeners to grasp the tactile history and the importance of preserving the visual languages that define our shared human tapestry. Join us in a reverent exploration of the ink that writes our past and inscribes our future.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Terje at:
Instagram @terje_k
YouTube: @terjekoloamatangi2946
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
I carry that forward. I see all the tools as being important Because they allow us to do the thing which is, I feel, the most important thing is the marking and the process around the marking. For me and this is just my thinking I think it's important that we don't restrict ourselves by getting caught up in the conversation around. If it's not done with this tool in this way, it's not authentic, but so will.
Speaker 2:Lucy. The transformative marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Casas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intokopmuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intokopmuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:I'm from the north of the North of Norway. My name is Tadia Kolomotangi. I'm from the villages of Pangai, motu on the island of Vavao, kolovae on the island of Tonga, tapu and a small island in the north of Norway called Amway. I'm an artist and a cultural tattoo practitioner. My work is centered on the revitalization of Tongan tattooing traditional tattooing. I'm stoked to be here sharing with you, brother.
Speaker 2:Cool. We've been here for our second day visiting with you In preparation for the Museum of Vancouver exhibition True Tribal contemporary expressions of ancestral skin marking, or some iteration of that. That'll be the working title. You have brought some ancestral what would you call it? Like a drink?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's cover. Cover is a beverage that's made from the roots of the cover plants. Traditionally it's part of our ceremonial ritual. In this context we're using cover just for talanoa. Talanoa is you and I in conversation and discussing whatever. We're discussing, deep subjects, whatever we choose to go with it, the cover is a way for us to connect. Essentially, there's a beautiful saying that relates to the consumption of cover it's buke buke for noa. Buke buke means to hold on tightly, to embrace or to grip tightly, for noa is land. For noa, in a Tongan context also, can mean people of the land. It also means it's got an interesting kind of life cycle meaning too, because it can mean placenta. But for noa can also mean a gravesite, so almost talks to cycles of life, which I think is quite beautiful. So when we're consuming cover, when we're sharing in cover, we are gripping on, holding on tightly to all those ideas around, all those cultural ideas. For us it's about us connecting.
Speaker 1:This particular strain of cover is from the Wa'u which is where I connect to the tapu, so I'm sharing my for noa with you.
Speaker 2:Cool, thank you. Yeah, that's beautiful and yeah, I just wanted to be able to so people can see what we're doing, what we're drinking, and also give some context, Because not everybody's familiar with the cover and the sharing of it. So yeah, if you want to give us a bowl.
Speaker 1:So after we've had our bowl, we can just say ma'aloh, which is to give thanks, ma'aloh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Ma'aloh.
Speaker 1:Ma'aloh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for sharing that and opening our conversation in that good way. That comes from your land and your people and your culture, and it's certainly connected with the work that we're going to be talking about in terms of tattoo. So, yeah, just tell me kind of open it. Let's open it up with a journey of how you got into the work. Okay, and we explored that in a further interview earlier, but just to give context here, we can expand that this time Because I know last time I asked you to give me a short version. You can expand to wherever it needs to go in this one.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so yeah, thanks bro. I mean, my journey with tattooing started in the late 90s. I was introduced to a Samoan Tufunga. Tufunga is like a it's the best way to describe Tufunga. It's like a master essentially. You know, a highly skilled practitioner of various art forms, certain art forms, and this Tufunga was a Tufunga Tata Tao, so he was a master of tattooing Samoan. His name was Sua Suluape Paolo. I got introduced to him through a mutual friend and I went along to not really having much knowledge In fact having almost zero knowledge about a traditional Tungan practice. You know, I'd had some glimpses into a Samoan practice, but at that point the my understanding of a traditional Tungan practice was pretty minimal. I'd seen this book actually that had come out I think it was either the year before, maybe a couple years before called the Art of Tunga, and that's that book. I mean, this is the 90s, bro, so we're still kind of three internet you know, mass internet days.
Speaker 1:So that book had an image in it of a Tungan tattoo on a male. There was no identifying, any other sort of identifying information. We didn't. We didn't. We knew that it was done on Tunga Tapu, which is the big island in Tunga, and he was a Tungan man and yeah, it's just a striking image, you know like, and I'd never seen it before in my life and that really was the my first, my first awareness around a traditional practice for Tungan tattooing, for Tungans. And yeah, that kind of blew my mind and I sort of, you know, sat on that for a while and kind of got excited about the possibility of a Tungan tattooing tradition. And then it wasn't until a little while later that I met Paul Law and started talking with him about it. And you know, I took that book to him and my initial thought was like, oh, I'll take this book to Paul to. You know, I met this guy and I was like I'll take this book to him and I'll show him this Tungan tattoo and maybe I can get an armband.
Speaker 2:That kind of makes. That's a nod to the tattoo, you know not the real thing?
Speaker 1:Well, the real thing, but not to that extent, you know, because the image was of a man's thighs and torso and he was tattooed completely and, you know, covered lots of heavy black work too. And then I always remember that I took that book to Paul Law and first off he'd already seen the book.
Speaker 1:So he was fully aware of the book, aware of the image, and he kind of put the challenge to me. He was just like you know, I was talking armband idea and he said to me oh, why would you get an armband when you could get the real thing? You know, something along those lines, but I'd, at that point, hadn't really kind of even considered it, you know, and I'm not too sure why I hadn't considered it. And, yeah, that really was the beginning for me.
Speaker 1:Was that image in the book and the meeting with Bolo, yeah, and then from there it was, you know, it was a journey you know, took a while to find my way as a practitioner, but in those early days it was really about kind of spending time with practitioners and you know, a lot of learning goes on through observation, you know, and I had the privilege of sometimes being invited to sit on the mat next to Bolo so I could see the work happening right in front of me and then eventually I took up the challenge and you know he was like, okay, we're gonna do this.
Speaker 1:And it was the first move towards the Tongan Tatu revival was with the markings that Bolo put on me, that was 99.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And from that the plan was to finish the work, and then the next step was for me to learn the tools and to continue on the work essentially yeah. Yeah, man, and then, like I shared with you earlier, you, know, sadly, Bolo was killed shortly after we started the work and that kind of just yeah, that sort of shook the whole Tatu community here in Aotearoa and, you know, across the Pacific.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because one of the amazing things that Bolo had done was he had helped other practitioners across the Pacific to revive their practices. Yeah, he was instrumental in the Hawaiian revival, working with Kionne Nunes. He worked with Māori here to reintroduce them to the tools and through those you know, that's a couple of examples and then through those kind of those movements that he sort of instigated, you know, went on to to others, learning from the likes of Kionne, for example. Yeah, so he played a really strong role in the art, particularly in the South Pacific, the indigenous revival of these traditional practices, yeah, and from you know.
Speaker 1:But as I said, he was killed and for me personally that just kind of kind of I was a little bit cast adrift and I wasn't quite sure where I was going after that point From that point and sort of took the, I didn't really well, I didn't pick up the tools or become serious about picking up the work as a practitioner until several years later. My sort of my next move really was just to start researching. You know, I was really interested in just understanding more and as much as I could. Yeah, about Atongan practice, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I guess we first met, I think was it 2015? Yeah, I think 2015 or 2016, somewhere in there anyway, and that was with Indigenous Inc. So, you want to tell me a little bit about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so part of I mean I kind of, I suppose, took as part of my what I saw as part of my contribution to the Indigenous tattooing the global movement was to pull together this a gathering of Indigenous practitioners from as far out as I could reach and those who were able to come, and we started that actually in 2011.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, it was the first one we did and it was very small scale, man, and it was really centered on the South Pacific. We had someone practitioner Maori, practitioner Atongan, practitioner Kyle, and I think that was maybe Urarotongan as well, so it was really centered on the South Pacific. But it was the first move towards what you came to know as Indigenous Inc, which in really quite a short space of time it went from this really intimate small gathering to being an international gathering of some really important practitioners, man like yourself, you know, who really instrumental in the revival of their practices for their people, and that was an incredible, I think.
Speaker 1:the last one, the really small scale one, we did at the studio it was 2016 maybe.
Speaker 2:I think so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to be honest, it kind of started getting a bit too big for me to kind of manage, you know, and I thought maybe it's time to kind of pull it back a little bit and go back to this kind of intimate gathering. And then it's awesome to see the likes of Tuikiri right. Who seems to have kind of picked up and continued on with that momentum. So it's nice to see that there's still spaces being made for us to come together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say, like, when I think about that gathering, like you said, like it was, it brought together a variety of practitioners from all across the world and all of those practitioners now are at the spearhead of the revival movements in their communities and communities connected to them. Like it's a pretty powerful catalyst, and the reason I say that is because of my own experience and other practitioners' experiences that I've spoken with.
Speaker 2:You know, at that time you feel real lonely you know when you're doing that work and not everybody can relate to it.
Speaker 2:Even if you're in a tattoo shop, you're usually the only you know my experience, the only indigenous person there, so like you don't have people to connect with that are doing that same work, and so for me that was like, so instrumental in my own experience and in my own growth, to be connected with people from all across the world who were doing similar things in their own communities, had experienced the same colonial project, you know, placed upon them and their people and their culture, and going through similar struggles. So I would say there was really like an important event that helped to, I guess, do what you anticipated that it would be.
Speaker 2:You know that dream that you had of supporting indigenous tattooing. I would say that event was one of those major things in the movement. So I just hold you up and you know holding that for the time that you did. You know because of course I know from my own experience of what we do is hosting events. You know planning things. You know getting together the funding and all of the work and the turmoil of actually doing those things. A lot of people don't actually know what it takes to hold those things and to bring them together. Everybody has their two cents about you know the one cent of thing there is to talk about, right, and so those are really difficult things to hold and so I just hold you up for you know, doing that for the time that you did, I think it was a really integral part of the work that's happening now.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you, brother. Thank you for that. Yeah, and it's really yeah, it's really warming to hear that, and it's a similar feedback that I've heard from a number of you know, practitioners who were involved in indigenous ink in those days, you know, became, yeah, became that sort of kind of like a bit of an axis point for people to kind of, you know, connect and pivot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lifetime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm just really stoked that the likes of Jooli have kind of picked that momentum up again, you know, because it's needed. It's so needed and you know, I've got all these young ones coming through, you know, and who are going to learn from all the ones like yourself, who are, like you say, at the spearhead of these movements and that's work, man, holding that down, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Like that's work. So yeah, to have things like Tool Kitty come up recently and see that that that seems to be really kind of growing and being really well supported from across the indigenous tattooing community is huge, you know. Yeah, big time. And even like for myself, man. You know I was still kind of on the edges as a practitioner you know I was.
Speaker 1:I hadn't really done the deep dive at that point and, like I said, I saw my role and I guess my work at that time being about kind of holding that space or creating that space or helping create that space. You know that was a huge learning experience for me. You know like just having all you guys around and seeing all the different practices and then seeing you guys kind of all connecting and feeding and buzzing off each other you know like that was huge and really for me kind of reignited my passion to really, you know, really focus in on the work as a practitioner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And when I reflect, actually I would say probably this podcast was birthed from that experience, because when I came, I think you probably remember in your basement we did a couple little interviews for my master's thesis, right, and I remember, like that experience of having, and also the experience of just having, powerful conversations with, you know, amazing people that are doing amazing work in their communities and cultures. You know, I get that inspiration, I get that fire. Then I, you know, after recording those, you know, I know people who have listened to those recordings that I did, you know, back in 2015, and they're like, you know, their minds are just blown by the little gems that are contained in there. And so I was like, oh, I need to share this.
Speaker 2:You know I need to share these conversations that we have when we're sitting together you know just power. You know just powerful people doing powerful work. And then you know, like I said, if we all put you know, if we only get one gem from each conversation, you know after 30 conversations that's a lot of gems for people to pick up and put in their tool basket to take with them as they go.
Speaker 2:That's it. So yeah, you know a lot. I think a lot of things came from that. So it's you know it was. It is important work that you've done there.
Speaker 1:Thank you, brother, appreciate that.
Speaker 2:One thing I want to kind of circle back that we started in our interview earlier is you know we have there's like this interesting thing that happens that I've observed in the indigenous tattoo world or skin marking practice is almost this hierarchy of authenticity.
Speaker 1:I call it.
Speaker 2:And so you know, we had a brief conversation about it earlier in terms of your own practice of using the ancestral tools and technology of tapping and also machine, and so do you want to explore that a little bit with me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, like I touched on earlier, my very first, I guess my first schooling around the practice was seeing those tools side by side, being used side by side on traditional work. So from the very beginning, I didn't, you know, that sense of some type of hierarchy around tools, for example, was just not a thing. It wasn't part of that initial conversation, right, and I think you know, for me personally, I carry that forward Like I see the tools as being all the tools, as being important, you know, because they allow us to do the thing which is, I feel, the most important thing is the marking and the process around the marking. You know, and I think it's for me, and this is just my thinking, I think it's important that we don't get, we don't restrict ourselves by getting caught up in the conversation around well, if it's not done with this tool and this way, it's not authentic. So well, who said yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:And one thing I was reflecting on with Julie is you know if that's the hill we're going to die on? Is that you know it has to be done this way, or else it's not authentic? How many marks are you invalidating? Exactly, man, if that's the position that you're taking.
Speaker 1:Well, if you think about all the mokokaua and all the kanohi that are walking around, that are becoming so just normal now, right, yeah, you know, if we take that sort of stance, that it's not done with the uhi, with the hand tools, it's not authentic or traditional or the real thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then, yeah, like you say, we're just kind of dismissing all that work all that whakapapa, all that genealogy, all the mana of those people and their ancestors, who are we to do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and yeah, you know when you see that work, that power is there. There's no denying it.
Speaker 1:There's no denying it.
Speaker 2:For me it's just yeah, I just always like to bring that up and have this conversation, because I think it's one that's important.
Speaker 1:Really important.
Speaker 2:And it's not to say. When I say those things, I'm not saying that there isn't a particular experience that you have when you're being tattooed or marked with your ancestral tools and technology. I definitely think, even from my own experience being skin stitched, it's a different experience than it is with the machine. But that doesn't mean that it's better. That doesn't mean that it's more authentic. It just means that it's a different experience. That's right and, like Keone says, it's like a time machine. You can actually feel what your ancestors felt when you get marked with those tools.
Speaker 2:But that doesn't mean that the other one isn't also valid. It's just different, it's unique. They're both unique and I always say it's like the right tool for the job.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:Right, and so you just pick the right tool for the job. And for me, when I mark the face, I only use the hand poke or skin stitch. That's just my choice. Not saying that the pieces that I did with machine on the face are invalid. That's just my choice as I move forward. That's the experience that I would like to give to those people who are getting that word.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I have the same approach when I'm doing the markings on the legs, for example, a men and women. I like to use the hand tools for that work Because, like you say, it just feels like the appropriate tool for that work. But I like also to have many tools in my tool belt.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:And I think there are kind of qualities and restrictions in both tools, both, if you're going, electric and hand tools. They both have beautiful qualities and they both have some restriction which you can work with. And yeah, so I think along the same ways where it's about having the tools that you choose to work with in your tool belt.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's no. You know, we don't want to kind of get into this. Like you know, we were policing ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they've gone.
Speaker 1:Heavily and strictly, that we're kind of restricting ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know because I've got you know all these young ones who are coming through my daughter, my daughter, for example. You know she's her focus, she's Māori and Tongan, it's her whakapapa and Norwegian and a little bit of Scottish, and you know a few things like this, but she's chosen to do tamako as her focus in the future. She may move into doing Tongan work potentially, but she's chosen to use the machine and she's creating incredible work with those with those machines, as are all these other young ones coming through. And I think it's you know, and I've always said to her, like you know, it's all available to you, it's what you choose to work with and allow you know, allow yourself the opportunity to explore all the tools at some point if you choose to yeah but don't shut yourself off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't stop that. One thing I wanted to explore again is you know the inspiration that you take, how you know where do you find the inspiration to create the pieces that you're doing.
Speaker 1:I'd say there's. There are kōloa, or treasures that I have within my family that are objects, that are mats, that are the kafa that I showed you yesterday, that sort of I guess it's a belt. You know, tongans wear these, wear mats around their waist, got tauvala and we tie a belt around to hold the mat in place. And the kafa I showed you yesterday is made from the hair of my grandmother and other women from that line and I'm not sure how I know it goes back a couple, maybe more generations, you know. So there's, you know that's a powerful kind of object to handle, but there's also inspiration in that that could come through and like, for example, I've done work around the kind of torso that I reference, kafa specifically Cool, and this idea that the work is kind of holding together or binding together things around this region, which is a sacred region of the body, you know. Yeah, so there are objects and material that exist that are treasures within my own family.
Speaker 1:There are stories that we hear within the family and other stories that have been captured and recorded by, you know, missionaries or adventurers who've kind of made their way to the islands, you know who've recorded their experiences. There are stories in there that mention tattooing, that become and there's not many of those stories, but there's a few and they just mention. They don't really go into detail about what it is, but they might mention a body part or they might mention a form that has a particular look to it. So that becomes an opportunity to explore what, how would that, what would that look like, how would that work? How would I find my way in these ideas? Yeah, and then, and then we have other, like our war clubs we have.
Speaker 1:There's a beautiful kind of series of patterns that exist within the lashing of the houses. So back in the day when, when houses were constructed, they would be bound together with kafa, which is another, is a is another made from coconuts in it, and it's kind of bound. So it sort of serves a function, a practical function in terms of holding the house together, but within that, patterns are woven into it. So you get these incredible kind of motifs that start to appear through the, through the various kind of weaving techniques used in the kafa, and that. That that art form is called lalava.
Speaker 1:And so, again, what I find interesting about lalava is this idea of wrapping things, you know and again, I've made reference to lalava and some of the work I've done, where, if I'm doing a forearm, for example, you know, we kind of imagine that this thing is wrapping and binding around the arm and that becomes the kind of design structure that we work within or around or with, and then we find pattern within that. So I, you know, even though Tongan Tatueng there's very little information about Tongan Tatueng historically, I think there's more that will come out across time as as we continue to dig and turn over stones, you know we'll keep finding more information. But for me there are clues and other things that you know, other material culture that's existed across time, that's that's survived.
Speaker 1:You know, colonization, and so those all become, those all become the clues that we can kind of, you know, say, for example for me the war clubs, I look at them, they're an object in the round and the way pattern is used on them is moving around this, this wooden object, this war club, and so you know straight away, for me there's a total sense in how that might move around the leg, for example. So all the, it's all there. It's just starting to kind of unravel it and, you know, deconstruct it and then reconstruct it as Tatu you know big time.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting the way that you talk about it. So it's not just the motifs themselves, but the way that they're constructed on the object as well that you're looking at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I relate that to the body you know. So the war club. I think I mentioned this to you earlier. You know, some of the war clubs were the personification of a chief or a particular warrior. So they, they're alive, they have a name, they're given a name, and so they are themselves regarded as, as part of the community you know, and so, yeah, it's just the idea that, that that we look at the body in the same way.
Speaker 1:These are bodies, and so for me the translation from that body to this body kind of makes sense and feels quite smooth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm not, I'm not looking at a, you know, an object that has that I feel may have no relationship to body, and trying to think oh how? Do I take that. Make that into something that's bodily.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, yeah, you're taking it from taking those clues, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:The clues are, you know, for us, because there is so little information and and there's evidence, which is great, that gives us enough to charge a head. Yeah, and so we have a lot of specific tattooing, you know, accounts and and and information. It's very little you know. So we start looking around and seeing okay well and we know all of our, all of our art forms are interconnected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know they're all interconnected, they're all talking about. We're kind of using these things to express our stories, yeah, and to contain our stories, you know to share our stories with generations you know the next generation and to understand the stories of the previous generation. You know so there's and it's all kind of interwoven and interconnected you know. So it yeah, a lot of it just is is kind of practical too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know it's, there's just the practical. We have a practical nature about us, I think as Indigenous people right yeah. And to you know, ultimately, you know, back in the day, a lot of stuff centered around survival, which is a practical way to be in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Just pick it up. What you need when you need it, that's it. Yeah, and that's also like you know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a. I would say some important things to tease out of the conversation we're having, because I know a lot of people back home in Turtle Island you know they don't, they're in a similar position, if not a worse off position, where maybe they have like one sentence that says there, for their ancestors tattooed, right. And so I'm always, you know, pushing people to again look outside those anthropological boxes. Right, because we're, you know, people go, oh, we don't have any tattoo patterns. But I'm like the that that idea that they're only tattoo patterns, you know, is what the anthropologists did, because that's what they do to become experts in something.
Speaker 2:Categorizing, yeah, categorizing things and then we accept that those categories are true and that we have to stick within them. But the reality is is that it's a visual language that goes across all of our visual material culture and connects all of the kin that are sitting in museum collections. So, all of the kin that are, you know, in our homes. You know those are all our relatives that are there in those places, and so I am. I always tell people you have to go visit.
Speaker 2:Right you have to go visit those baskets, those war clubs, those things, because sometimes they haven't been visited in hundreds of years by our people, right? And so those are our kin that are there, so you know, wherever you're from, whoever you're connected to, get to the museum and visit your kin.
Speaker 1:That's it and I wanted they waiting, the waiting for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're totally waiting and I wanted to Circle back again and thank you for giving me the replica of a tool that you found and I just wanted you give you an opportunity to talk about that experience of finding a little gem that you know, even though people were familiar with it. You know people in your community probably weren't familiar with it's not at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so this is a powerful story for people to know that Sometimes, when you go to those museums, you're gonna find things that your people have been looking for for a long time or didn't even know that they were missing. That's it and so, yeah, just give you an opportunity to share. You know what that experience was and you know where, where and how that all went down.
Speaker 1:Hmm, so it was 2018, I think it was. Yeah, I got the opportunity to go to Switzerland and, as part of a kind of arts conference and through that, I got to meet the curator of the museum of cultures I think that's what it's called Museum of Cultures in Basel, basel, switzerland, and you know, we I'd arranged with her to Visit the collection and visit the storeroom and, and you know, see if there were any kind of tong and objects in there that might be of interest, and and and other objects that may not be identified as Tongan but I might be able to identify as Tongan, you know, and we went.
Speaker 1:So she was kind enough to take, take, take me to the storeroom and we went out the back and we were looking at kind of a, an area, a section that was kind of Western Polynesia, so it had some Fiji, samoa, tonga, those probably the three main areas that it it covered, and she pulled out this, this like, probably like a shoebox size archival box, and she said, oh there's, you know, there's probably there's a few things here that might in here, that are, that are from this region, they might be something in there that's of interest to you. It was, bro, was literally, like you know, shoebox and just everything Like the Junk Drawer.
Speaker 2:It was that Junk Drawer right, yeah, just the one just above the place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so so she opened up the box and we, just you know, started in pulling things out and looking and I recognized a couple of things, like there was a, there was a feke law like octopus law in there. So I was like oh yeah, that's cool. And we got to this little, almost cleared the box out and then I saw this kind of like this little bone sort of object. That was, you know, kind of yay, big, yeah, and I was like whoa, so I kind of picked it up and so this, there was a little.
Speaker 1:Tag kind of hanging off it and it was and it said it was a tattooing needle from Tonga. And I was just like man, I was flawed instantly because you know been researching Tongan tattooing and and kind of mark making and I was like researching Tongan tattooing and and kind of mark making for some time at that point and the reason I was there was to give a talk on tattooing and and sort of share what I, I guess my research to date and and there were descriptions of tattooing, that that you know, of dots and kind of small markings that to me, I Don't know, just sounded like they would be made with some kind of hand poke tool. Yeah, you know, cuz it's just kind of make as a practitioner, you start to kind of understand all that that would work for this and, yeah, that might not work for that. And and I was just like, yeah, I was completely flawed and you know I'm holding this. This is a beautiful little object, yeah, and on the end of it the very tip was snapped off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was. It was potentially you know that much longer again and it was just all stained in black ink. Yeah, and you know it was a. It was a discovery of a, of a hand poke, a Tongan hand poke tattooing tool which I I'm pretty sure had not been. I mean, it was in their collection, so it's been cataloged, but it's never been kind of focused in on or talked about or written about yeah and I got to share some of About that particular tool through my masters.
Speaker 1:Yeah and these are still. I did. It's just amazing for me to be able to One hold this object, you know, and and kind of mark to your ancestors that might the ancestors man, but then then also Understand, through holding it, how this is a practical. I could see how this would work.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's a, the scale of it, the, the way it sort of sits in your hand, the kind of Maneuverability of it you know, may total, total senses as a tattooing tool, hand poke tool. So yeah, just it was. It was a really profound moment, yeah, you know, to kind of be in the presence of this, of this tool, and to and to think about how many people it may have marked, who it may have marked and all the stories attached to this one little thing you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, because when you show me the picture like it looks like it was a pretty well used yeah man, yeah, and the fact that it the tip of it has been snapped off you know, probably just yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:It would have, it would have done some work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to circle back and you know there'll probably be people like oh, junk drawer, what you know? Junk drawers are actually very important because they have all these things that you may need or you do need. That's right that Don't find another place to go, so jump drawers are important, so I wasn't saying that those objects were junk, and just the reference of like a place where you catch all. You just put stuff that you don't have other Categorical drawers for that's right, and stuff that's all just waiting to be used.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So I just wanted to make that clear so you know those people out there who are like hey what about?
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, that's just such an exciting Discovery yeah and I think the reality is, is that, like you said about Tongan tattooing, I would say All of our skin marking practices? You know we are really just beginning to scratch the surface. You know, and when I think about other communities, you know Things to keep in mind when looking. You know just tips. You know who were the early explorers that came there, so-called explorers. You know what nationality and what language did they speak, because a lot of times I'll be looking, say, for example, on the east coast of Canada, where I'm at, in the Muggy, the MiGma territory. You know the people that colonized there first were French. Hmm, so if you're a English speaking scholar, you're gonna be missing a lot of that early scholarly, that early work that was written about it.
Speaker 2:That's right so those are things just to keep in mind as people begin to do that research of Finding out who were those first people that wrote and then what language.
Speaker 2:So that's like Foundational, I would say in terms of that archival research totally and then the next thing is the acquisition notes are also important, right, and so you have those tools or those baskets or those, whatever. Well, the person who collected them and sent them to the museum wrote notes, and a lot of times those aren't looked at. No, just encourage people to not only look at the object but look at the notes, and I would say that I'm not really good at that, even though I know that that's a good place to look. You know, a friend of mine went and looked for some rock art research and found drawings in the hand of the Anthropologists of sketches of our tattoos, our facial tattoos, in rock art research. Wow, right, and so there's like a lot of places to look that haven't been looked yet, and so, yeah, and that kind of speaks to the interconnectedness of our practices right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know how you could look at rock art and discover, yeah, the, the facial tattoos, right and so so, whatever stories contained in that rock art, for example, there may be an overlap into the, into the, into the facial tattoos. You know, yeah, that the person recording it at the time was kind of issued towards yeah, big time you know if you're gonna capture this also get that, grab that too yeah there's a really great example of that too.
Speaker 1:One of the early drawings of of a Tongan tattoo on a Vavao man was captured, was rendered by One of the Spaniards who they were the first people to really kind of like spend any serious time in Vavao. Yeah, and those records. After that expedition, the guy who led the expedition was chucked in jail and those records were locked away in them the Spanish Maritime Museum, yeah, and getting access to those is really really difficult. But within that they captured a drawing. They started to To to form a bit of a glossary of terms. Yeah, you know they were. They were talking with different people Capturing as much as they could of that life, of that time and but, like you say, if you're not speaking Spanish, yeah, it's all unavailable to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah initially, unless you can find a person to work with who's got the language and yeah but the thing is around access, you know getting into these spaces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:I know the Vatican also has a huge I've heard apparently has a huge Tongan collection.
Speaker 1:That's kind of locked away you know, because the Catholics came through Tonga and they had a stronghold in parts of Tonga in those early contacts or the days. Again, it's access, man. You know these people are really holding on to our things with that kind of right of ownership. Yeah, big time they kind of cast over all the things that they've collected, yeah. So, yeah, I mean just supporting what you say, man, like, be cast the net wide and be kind of open to going down whatever road presents itself you know, and sometimes finding a new road, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:And I would say that sometimes you, at the time of going down those little rabbit trails, you have no idea what connections they may have back to the marks. Just because maybe it doesn't talk about tattooing, you know, maybe there's a story captured there, you know which.
Speaker 2:Later then you realize oh, this marking is actually connected to that and so, yeah, just like you say, casting it wide, bringing as much back in that we can, is just so essential, and to break free of those anthropological boxes. You know, that's one of the things that I've come to realize as I've navigated academia. You know, here and there is it's important for us to start writing and talking for ourselves, right?
Speaker 1:And to start asking new questions?
Speaker 2:Right, because those papers, those books, those articles were written asking colonial questions. It's time for us to look at them again and ask new questions you know, start to think about those in a different way, so that when we come to a new conclusion, it's from our own perspective not from their perspective.
Speaker 1:That's it, yeah, and for us as practitioners, that's a really valuable perspective to take in when we're looking for material on tattooing, for example. As a practitioner's mind and eye, that's going to see things in a particular way or understand things in a particular way. That relates back to the practice.
Speaker 2:Totally, you know, even if the pattern isn't exactly the same, say, from basketry to rock art, to tattoo marks, skin marks by understanding this over here can help you to interpret something over here.
Speaker 1:Totally Right.
Speaker 2:And so it's like beginning to learn that ancestral visual language. That's why I keep coming back to that, so you can start to begin to look at it through that visual language which is the first language that we had, right.
Speaker 2:Even when we're coming out and we're growing up, yes, we're hearing that oral language but we don't understand it. We're able to see all of the marks. That's why I think that skin marking is so important is because we are repatriating those designs, symbols and motifs and they're walking around the world. In the past it would be on the walkout, it would be on the canoes, it would be on the rocks, it would be on the war clubs, it would be everywhere. That visual language would be everywhere. But now the vast majority of it is in institutions that are gatekeeping them in that very harmful gatekeeping way of like possession. This is what I possess Instead of. I think sometimes gatekeeping isn't always explored in the right way. Sometimes gatekeeping is like as a steward being a steward of this. I'm caretaking for it as opposed to I possess it. But I think with those institutions, they're possessing those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's take on a default position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time I own this stuff. This is ours yeah.
Speaker 1:It's an asset of the institution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time when you think about the conversation that we've been having and the things we've been talking about. Is there anything that you feel like you want to share, because I always think for myself. I've been through interviews and things and people when afterwards I'm like, oh, I wish they would have asked me that question. You always have an idea of maybe something that's lingering, that needs to be said. So just giving that opportunity as we round up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, and what kind of touched on this earlier today. For me, the work and the caring of the work and the whole process around the work is a way of us remembering who we are. Remembering in a tongue, in context, remembering our indigeneity, remembering that we this practice is part of what defines us and has defined us. And can define us moving forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a beautiful way to tie up the conversation that we've just had, because I love the way that you use that word remember, because in a lot of ways, when you break it down, we are not only remembering who we are, but we are remembering so becoming members of our cultures again, of our communities, of our families sometimes, because the colonial project was one that, for us, legislated us in and out of existence. The government decided who of us were Indian and who weren't, and so that identified who could live in community and who it was illegal for you to live with your people. So it's an important thing for us to not only remember who we are but to remember ourselves back to our communities as members of those communities.
Speaker 2:So, I think it's a beautiful and a powerful place to end off and I really thank you for taking the time to sit with me, share the kava with me and also bring your client here to do photographs for the Museum of Vancouver exhibition. And yeah, I just lift you up for all that you've done for the movement and that you're continuing to do for your people.
Speaker 1:Ma'am, well, be so, bother, yeah, and just respect to you for the work that you're doing, man. And this exhibition is another huge kind of moment in the momentum around indigenous, global, indigenous tattooing. So, yeah, it's a powerful work. So, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate it. Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you were amazing, that you were loved, and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head on over to next week's episode, where I talk to Heather Kiss-Kamon, a Cree artist based in Muscovites, alberta. In this episode, we talk about the journey from taking art school in Europe to being comfortable living back home on the reserve in Muscovites, and the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.