#011 When Heather Kiskihkoman inked her skin, it was more than a tattoo—it was a homecoming. Our journey together in this episode is a deep exploration of identity, heritage, and the transformative power of traditional tattooing. Heather's tale encapsulates her move from a reserve in Alberta to the freeing streets of Europe and back, weaving her Indigenous roots into her very skin. She shares the poignant act of reclaiming her family name, Kiskihkoman and how it kickstarted her passion for the ancestral craft of skin marking.
As we share stories, we shed light on the importance of tangible community connections and the rich experiences that unfold during in-person events. The art of creating with one's hands, whether it be through hide tanning or crafting items ingrained with cultural significance, emerges as a healing practice. We examine how Heather's own path led her away from her teaching career, steering her towards a more fulfilling life of service and self-care. The discussions reveal that stepping back from our relentless professional demands can actually be the stepping stone to a more impactful community contribution.
Navigating the intimate realm of tattooing, Heather and I unravel the emotional layers entailed in this art form. This episode peels back the curtain on the intricacies of hosting tattoo sessions—the sacred space, the deep preparation, and the mutual respect between tattooist and recipient. We also probe the delicate balance of preserving tradition while embracing modernity in tattoo designs, acknowledging our role as creators of tomorrow's history. Join us as we explore the profound connections between the art of tattooing, community healing, and the unending quest for self-discovery and cultural affirmation.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
Check out Heather's work at:
Instagram @osawayisis
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
#011 When Heather Kiskihkoman inked her skin, it was more than a tattoo—it was a homecoming. Our journey together in this episode is a deep exploration of identity, heritage, and the transformative power of traditional tattooing. Heather's tale encapsulates her move from a reserve in Alberta to the freeing streets of Europe and back, weaving her Indigenous roots into her very skin. She shares the poignant act of reclaiming her family name, Kiskihkoman and how it kickstarted her passion for the ancestral craft of skin marking.
As we share stories, we shed light on the importance of tangible community connections and the rich experiences that unfold during in-person events. The art of creating with one's hands, whether it be through hide tanning or crafting items ingrained with cultural significance, emerges as a healing practice. We examine how Heather's own path led her away from her teaching career, steering her towards a more fulfilling life of service and self-care. The discussions reveal that stepping back from our relentless professional demands can actually be the stepping stone to a more impactful community contribution.
Navigating the intimate realm of tattooing, Heather and I unravel the emotional layers entailed in this art form. This episode peels back the curtain on the intricacies of hosting tattoo sessions—the sacred space, the deep preparation, and the mutual respect between tattooist and recipient. We also probe the delicate balance of preserving tradition while embracing modernity in tattoo designs, acknowledging our role as creators of tomorrow's history. Join us as we explore the profound connections between the art of tattooing, community healing, and the unending quest for self-discovery and cultural affirmation.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
Check out Heather's work at:
Instagram @osawayisis
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
I'm really struggling, I guess, when it comes to tattooing people I don't know and also dealing with just the energy that's released in the space afterwards. I don't know what, I don't know.
Speaker 2:You can probably remember, but when I did my first tattoo on myself, I cried like crazy, and one of my favorite memories is the Transformative Marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Casas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intlacopak professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intlacopak skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Heather Kisigge-San. I'm from the Muscovites Reserve in Alberta. I was born and raised there, but I do have kinship roots in Amshinong, Ontario, where my mom is from, and now I feel like I've said it all, even though there's like more to say, but like that's a basic intro, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good you know, just enough for people to know who you are and you know what's going on. You know I always find it awkward when you know in presentations people like totally introduce, you, do this whole thing. You're like, okay, I'm going to say it again because that's what I'm supposed to do. But I'll just ask you to kind of describe the journey that brought you to be talking to me about transformative marks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, okay, so I guess, to not go too far back, growing up I grew up on reserve, like with my entire like extended family, like really enmeshed in culture and like practice and all that. But I had a hard time connecting to it and I think part of that was like the teenage whatever is going on, I want to do the opposite, type thing. So I've always been that obnoxious, like goth, punk, whatever, like counterculture type person, and it wasn't until I had moved away. I had moved to Europe and gone to school in France for four years and that was the first time I felt like I could just be a person and I wasn't like an indigenous person or an Indian in like a really small racist town type of thing. So I had the freedom to just be a human, a person. And then, after that, coming home, that's when I was really kind of okay. Now I need to get into this and I need to kind of, I guess, figure out where I fit within the context of my community, because before it was all I could think about was getting out of there, you know, because there's that narrative of the res being like this horrible place and you have to get out to survive, to be successful, and it took a long time to kind of get rid of that. But now I happily live on the res, you know, like it's my favorite place.
Speaker 1:So part of that journey of reconnecting and decolonizing my way of life started with changing my name. My family's name is originally Cutknife. Well, not originally, my family name is Cutknife and that is like a mistranslation from the Creekskihkoman who was my father's great grandfather and he was the original Cskihkoman and he or sorry, the family was named after him but then it was translated to Cutknife. So to be the first person in my family to kind of go through the motions, to start to reclaim that it felt really powerful for me and I did that when I was in university here in Edmonton and that was the first step and I think because of that that led me to, I guess, just be open, for my consciousness to be open, but to lead me towards the journey of coming to tattooing and like the practice of tattooing.
Speaker 1:I had never been someone that wanted tattoos or wanted to do tattoos, but at a certain point it just there was this idea and it was like it was always there that I was meant to receive a tattoo. And then in the summer oh my goodness, what summer was it? I think it was 2009 or something I started to just kind of see examples everywhere and it just kind of came out of nowhere and surprisingly it wasn't your name or anything really to do with you, because, like now, when you kind of research, like your name comes up because you're doing so much of the work involved in that, but it was different people, different images that they just started to come to me on a more regular basis. So then I reached out, and I reached out to Kristi Bellcourt, actually, and asked if she could do my tattoo. And then I made a pilgrimage up to where they're camping up in well, not where they're camping, where they're building a homestead up at Nimkeashbekang and it's beautiful there. When I got there, it just wasn't. It just wasn't the right thing it was. It didn't feel like, hmm, this is how it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1:So my dad went, we had a great time, it was wonderful. And then, when I got home, I met a woman in my community, wilda, and I saw that she had her chin done and I was like, oh my goodness, okay, this is it, this is someone from my home who has done this. So I went and asked her and she told me about you. So then that led me to contacting you, and then I had no idea about the tattoo school beyond that. So when I went out and met you and you were telling me about it, I just kind of said, oh my God, I really want to do that. Like for no reason, it just like it kind of clicked, like maybe this is a path that I should be looking into or pursuing more deeply. Yeah, so that's kind of, I guess, a very wordy way.
Speaker 2:I kind of got there. Yeah, it's important to tell that story the way it comes. You know. You know however that manifests. You know you have a variety of overlapping practices and what are they and how do you see them informing each other.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so I guess primarily I would call myself I don't even know what I would call myself an artist, I guess. So when I was going to school abroad, I was going to art school and I was doing like a fine arts focus, but also doing sort of like a fashion studies on the side type thing, and one of the biggest criticisms that I kept getting from my professors was that my work was too crafty, it wasn't fine art enough, it was too crafty and it was very. You know, some of them would say like you have to make a decision, and then other ones would be like you need to lean into this and really lean on the fact that you're an Indian. You know, like really play that up and that's your in. And I didn't really want to exploit that part of my identity to get recognition or anything. So I had a great time. I'm thankful for the experience. I don't regret it at all, but I was really happy to come home, you know, at the end of it, yeah, and so I took away from that.
Speaker 1:When I was in my junior year in painting class, I was doing paintings with sewing and embroidery and beadwork into the canvases. Yeah, I had fun. It was like a weird little and I found like, as someone who was like I don't want to say disconnected, but in that time in my life I was in Europe, you know like completely disconnected from my family and my culture, I found like these weird patterns in art deco wallpaper. So I was like doing those sort of like. They were very pictograph, like looking images, so I was beating those into the canvases which, like I still think they're pretty cool, you know, but like kind of informing where they came from. That was almost like an exploration of a certain aspect of European culture, I guess, and their European visual language.
Speaker 1:And then when I came home I got into beating and that was something that I always really wanted to do but never had anyone to teach me. And I find that that's been a common theme as well for me to wanting to learn these cultural arts, traditional arts, but not having the teachers around to show me. So I did. I had one experience when I was probably like 12 or so with a community elder and she kind of sat down and taught me how to bead, but I don't think she wanted to do it, I think she was doing it as a favor. Yeah, it was very much like okay, here's how you do it and don't come back, you know. So from that experience, like 10 years later, I kind of taught myself how to do that. So the beating and then the drawing, they kind of went together like the drawing from my arts education. Sorry, I'm getting all the like around here.
Speaker 2:No, worries, take your time. Yeah, it's all good. That's one of the things I really notice about all of the folks that I'm talking to, you know, especially the cultural practitioners. You know we all have so many things that we do that sometimes it's like, well, people will ask me oh, what do you do? Okay, maybe I should say what I don't do, and maybe that'll be a shorter list, you know. So, yeah, I totally understand how it's like and also trying to explore it in that maybe almost chronological way which, you know, I would say, don't feel structured to that, just roll with, roll with whatever comes.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so after that I guess my practice is really kind of informed by sewing and stitching and kind of wherever that leads me. I was doing a lot of sewing in art school, like I would be sewing quilts and making them into canvases which I would then paint on top of and then like bead on top of that and sewing clothing. I do a lot of work for my dad and my uncles and my mom, you know, just like kind of sewing clothing or regalia or whatever, whatever they need, I guess making moccasins and I think a large part of my overall practice I've kind of reduced down to the phrase like Indigenous, low fashion revival, I guess, to reference the slow fashion movement that's going on, like in the larger fashion community to get away from mass production and exploitation of workers, but to really analyze it and kind of take a step back. You know, two, three generations ago that's our ancestors were doing that, you know, and that was you put so much love and emotion and caring into these garments that are hand stitched and created and then you give them to someone you love and then they pass them down. And they pass them down and you know, like there's that shirt that's older than Canada.
Speaker 1:You know, and like that's the power of the intention and the meaning behind the maker is that these items they last so for to get into tattooing, when I think it was the stitching aspect of it that kind of drew me to wanting to tattoo, is that that's something that I've already been doing in my practice since, I guess since I was about 12 or 13,.
Speaker 1:That's been something that I've connected with. And then to learn that, I don't know, I think all kids have that weird where they kind of like poke their skin or like it got a sewing needle, they're gonna poke their skin. So it was always sort of like a thing that I was like, oh, that could be fun, you know. But and then when I really got into beadwork, it was like I can make these beautiful things to wear. I really want to like just put beads on my skin, you know, and have the beads like be under the skin or whatever, and then to be able to translate that into a practice that is very modern but is also, like incredibly ancient as well. You know, like there's there's a reason, there's this draw to it, I guess, this innate draw to wanting to practice that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just wanted to bring that up just because you know the variety of things that you do and it's important to see and explore, maybe, how they intersect. And one of the things that I also find super cool that you've been doing, which I've been noticing a lot, is the hide tanning. Yeah, and so, yeah, I just wanted to bring those things forward. I also have a few different questions before this one, but I just popped in here, I know, and I have to bring it up because I have puppies myself. I just wanted to mention the dog nose beaded pins that you do. Those are so cool, yeah, so cool. I just wanted to what. What brought forward the idea, the spark to the? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Can I even answer that? I have a hard time answering that because it just seemed like such a precious thing. And when you own a dog or a cat or whatever and then you have to be away from them, you just missed them so much. Right, and the little noses, I don't know. It's one thing to like cuddle and hold an animal, but to have them just stick their nose up my ear nose, it's just such a precious and like really delicate and loving gesture. And then it's just it's so cute and like I don't know it, just to me it just really struck something in my heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a, and I'd never seen anyone do it before. And a large part of what I try to do with my beadwork is to do things that I haven't seen other people do. Like I guess, as an artist, but then also respectful to other artists, if I see someone doing something, I'm not going to go and like, well, I want to do that. But my way, you know, like I just kind of don't want to step on anyone's toes, and I saw an opening there and I was like I really want this to be a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally relate to that. You know, I'm on a trip right now of six weeks. I'm away from my wife and our two pups. So you know, I just seen that I was like oh my God, those are awesome. But I just wanted to bring it up because I thought it was dope. You know you talked a little bit about the slow fashion I think you called it and I just wanted to bring forward and highlight the art markets and indigenous gatherings that you go to to share your creations. You know, do you want to share a little bit about that? And you know why are they important and why is it? Why do you do all those things? Because it seems like it's well, I have all these cameras so I'm bringing a lot of stuff everywhere. So I imagine it's the same for you. When you go, you're like you know, suitcases and going on out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think just over the last year and a half I've transitioned more from posting on Instagram and selling things that I create on Instagram to in-person markets. I find them just more rewarding, just like you were saying about being in-person and doing this podcast there's, you get much more rewards and you can see the person who is receiving and you can see the love in their eyes and like the happiness. So markets and like in-person events are incredibly exhausting for me, but I would rather do it that way than do it over Instagram, over a website, just because I receive as well. You know, I receive that energy and my sister and I just finished doing the Royal Bison here in Edmonton and it was an incredible experience. It was wonderful, but I literally slept all day yesterday. You know, like I woke up to eat twice and then I was like back asleep, just because of the emotional and like intellectual output. Yeah, it's huge.
Speaker 1:So, over the few markets that we've done in the past year and a half, I find it's easier to do indigenous markets because there's a lot of emotional labor that goes into explaining to someone why does this tiny little piece cost $300, you know, and it's okay. Well, how much do you expect to get paid for an entire week's worth of work, not even including the materials. You know, like you mentioned, the hide tanning that practice in and of itself is extremely, extremely hard work, but like it's rewarding and fulfilling and it's actually very healing, I guess as well like ancestral healing, like if you have like a square foot of hometown hide that can easily self, or like $100 just for a square foot. Yeah, so, and then you're using that. I try to use as many naturally sourced and ethically sourced products or materials in my work. So, yeah, it's a labor of love, and to get to share that and to educate people who are open to receiving that knowledge is really rewarding. It's really good, really good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's like I was sharing before and you'd mentioned. That's why I want to do these podcast interviews in person, you know, to be able to see you give you a hug, say hi, catch up, catch up when it's not being filmed. You know all that type of stuff. So, yeah, I just think it's super important for us to visit. You know it's such an important principle. You know, when you think of all of the gatherings and family, you know things that we would do.
Speaker 2:You know it would almost be like five or six, seven, eight trips a year, whether that was Easter or New Year's or whatever it was. You know you'd travel. Sometimes we'd travel from middle of BC all the way to Washington state, right? So yeah, it's just the traveling and visiting, and so I think it's important to you know, emphasize that. Plus, I think we're losing, like you said, that connection, that real connection of like, hey, how are you doing? Right, even though it's draining, I think for me as well, you know, tattooing all of that stuff is exhausting but amazing at the same time. So one of the I heard in one I think it was in the podcast interview you said that you started to heal through creating. Do you want to explore that a little bit?
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, well, okay. So I'm still kind of like working through kind of the steps and the process of it, because I'm still healing through the process of it as well. But I got to a point where I realized that my participation in, I guess, the economy or like the overall, like grind culture was detrimental to my health, to my well-being, just to who I am as a person. And I think like that realization came like right after the tattoo school in Regina in 2019. I went back home and I went to work and I spent half a day there and I realized, you know, I love teaching, I love interacting with the community and like working with my students, but this is not the place for me, because, at the same time, I'm giving absolutely everything I have to the kids and I still feel like I'm failing them, you know, and I'm still. I'm going home and just how can I do better? How can I do better for them? And I'm not even considering myself as a person or my own growth or my own well-being.
Speaker 1:So it was a tough decision to step away and I still miss them every day. I still think about going back, but I've never been happier. I guess in my life. I've never been, as you know, calm and just self-assured that that was exactly the right choice to make, and like knowing that when I do work with the students, like when we do high tanning, or if I'm doing workshops or whatever, that I'm bringing 100% of myself, my best self, to them.
Speaker 1:And then can, I guess, just I guess give the best of myself. Because I had experienced burnout like four times in about 10 years, yeah, to the point where, like I couldn't get out of bed, I couldn't, like I could barely make it through the motions. And then it was, it's a fact, it would've, it was a fact, it was affecting like my physical health as well, like I was starting to develop all kinds of like weird food allergies and like anxiety disorder, depression, all of these things. So I had to step away from that to really start to heal myself and then to feel, I guess, that I'm doing what's best for myself, but also knowing that that's best for my community and that's best for the people around me as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, yeah, I just thought it was important to, or like a valuable insight to look at how I don't even know how how the process of creating these ancestral objects, using, you know, designs and symbols and motifs from our cultures, from our communities, from our land, is just part of that process. You know, when stepping into, like you said, that you know the creating of those hides is just such a powerful ancestral medicine that you know helps. You know everything, anything that's going on. You know you're moving your body, you know you're being very physical, you're outside. You know, for the most part, and all of that stuff is just so powerful. So, yeah, I just wanted to highlight that and bring it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like in the hide camps that we've done, some of the most powerful kind of breakthroughs are, you know, it can be someone who's my age, or like a young person, or like someone who's my parents' age. I remember a couple instances where there's older individuals who, like you know, are in their 50s or 60s, and you can see they want to try but they're hesitant. And then when they start, you know, like if they're first like first time punching a hide or something, and then they say out loud, like they feel it necessary to say out loud, like I should be there on teaching you or I should know how to do this, and just that amount of shame that they're still carrying with them and to be able to acknowledge, like I feel that too, you know, like you can speak Cree, I should be able to speak Cree. You know like it's a shared shame that we're carrying, and then to be able to like, let that go, because we are doing the best we can to reclaim as much as we can, and then to witness. You can actually see and you can actually feel those emotions leaving the person. It's not necessarily like crying or whatever, but you can see the energy shift in these people who have been carrying this for their entire lives, or even from their parents, you know, like the generational weights of that. And then to see the little kids get on the tides, it's amazing, it's adorable, like just these little babies, like making their own tools.
Speaker 1:And we've been working with one of the schools in the community for the past month or so working on hides and just to see the little five, six year olds like get right into it. You know, and it's really shocking to me that a lot of the time when there's like a dead animal around they're all like ew. You know, but we did the full Buffalo harvest, the school organized it, and to have the little ones come out and see the Buffalo, you know, being skinned and then being like broken down, the legs coming off, and then just the slicing of the meat and then like disemboweling, removing the ribs, like they were right into it and there was no like grossed out. Yeah, and I think when it's presented in sort of that respectful way then they really connect to it and they really want to be involved in it. So they really love when we go on the Fridays. We've been going to work on the hides with them and they're right in there and they remember the rules and they know exactly what we're supposed to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's hard physical work, but these little ones are right in there. You know, like doing the work for us Making you look good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:But just that sort of innate like we told them like kind of what to do, but because it's, it is like a very basic movement and I know like you're scraping a layer off, but just to see them get right into it and then have to be told, okay, now you need to stop and let someone else have a turn, like where they don't want to stop. Yeah, it's a really beautiful sort of transformative process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Two things come up for me when you share that story. The first one is the you know, that reality, that shame and that guilt was put there and that was intentional, right, like the stripping of that knowledge was intentional. That's what the you know, kill the Indian in the child was that's what that phrase came from is to strip that knowledge so you couldn't live off the land, right. So it's so powerful to think of how the revisiting of this ancestral knowledge, how it starts to strip away those layers of colonization and we don't even have to think about decolonization, we don't even have to think about the colonizer in that context. It's just, this is what we do, and that's one of the things.
Speaker 2:The other thing that came up was you know, that's my vision for this practice and it's I'm starting to hear it more and more people sharing how you know Echo shared about how you know that their little one or her little one travels with her to do the work.
Speaker 2:You know, do the tattooing, and it's just part of what they do, like they don't know any different than this is what we do, right. And so it's so cool to think about that is these things, these practices, tattooing, hide, tanning, beating, all of those things just being part of what we do. You know, when you're 13, you go get your tattoo, you know, for your coming of age, instead of it being important because we're reviving it. I want to be past that part. I don't want to be part of a revival, I just want to be part of a culture and a community that has tattooing as part of everything that we do.
Speaker 2:And then I also think of the, the work and the way that Nikita Trimble talks about the work that she does in the revival of Nishka clan and crest tattoos and how that process is really the process of connecting the generations, right? Oh, go talk to your, your community, go talk to your elders, go talk to your grandma and see what your clan and your crest symbol is, what's the story of your family, right? Whereas a lot of times we don't have an opportunity to go and hey, tell me something, right?
Speaker 1:So it's pretty cool to see that this process of tanning a hide you know, a very simple act is just so powerful you know it really is, and I find that, having gone into the schools quite a few times to work with the students oftentimes it's the students who are, you know, always the problem child you know that are the absolute best at it. You know one school we had a student who had at least one EA at all times like on him and uh, he got right into it and he didn't stop for about two hours, you know, and they kept coming and checking on him like is he okay?
Speaker 2:I'm like yeah, he's great. Cuz he's bored.
Speaker 1:Like there's no real connection To it. And I had that experience as well before I was doing the high tanning, when I was still in the classroom and one of the one of those students that's very, you know, very outspoken, always in trouble for some reason or other, always acting out, he asked, he shouted out in the middle of class I was substitute teaching for him, so I wasn't even teaching my subject but he said why are we learning this? I want to learn about my culture. I was like you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:This isn't what I want to be talking about either and that became like a big issue for me teaching because I that's what I wanted to be teaching, and I was every year. When it came down to teaching assignments for the next year, I'd say I want to do like an indigenous arts course. I want to do beating, quilling, tuffting, high tanning and I want to incorporate the language into it. And every year of I get that sounds like a great idea. Not this year, you know, yeah. So then, after six years of it, I'm like I'm tired of this. You know, like I'm gonna go off and do that thing. You know, yeah. So that's what I'm doing now and I'm so much happier, that's yeah.
Speaker 2:It's cool to hear because I know I think we even had some of those Conversations in, you know, when I was doing your face markings. You know like we were having those conversations back then, and so it's cool to see that transformation and that change and also to see, well, to hear. I suppose the some of those changes and transformations came after the tattoos.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of it. Yeah, that's, I think, just that's the experience of being together with so many different, like-minded people. It's something that it doesn't happen very often, or up up until that point it didn't happen that often for me to be able to say like I don't want to do this. You know, like I don't want to live in this world like that and then to have other people like completely agree and like to see how all of you are, you know, living your lives based around your artistic practices and just being your true, authentic selves and being indigenous people, doing indigenous things and Thriving. You know, like that was a huge inspiration for me. That was like the thing I needed to to kind of like kick off.
Speaker 2:That's kind of cool to hear, you know, because it's not one wasn't really one of the intended outcomes of that Training, but yeah, it's pretty cool to hear that just being able to live our lives authentically and to thrive in those spaces Gives people permission, I suppose, to begin to do that for themselves, and I think that's also probably why I do this podcast. I wanted to do it is to highlight people who are doing their own shit the way they want to right, and Having those people to look up to. You know, those young ones who can watch or listen and go. Yeah, I want to be like Heather. Right, I've. When I was watching your skin did genus episode, rewatching it, I seen that you visited a set of tattoo tools at the Royal Alberta Museum, was it? Tell me about that experience.
Speaker 1:That was amazing, actually. I hadn't For so long, like I had been hoping to come across like sort of like old tattoo kits or whatever, and I never occurred to me that there would be one here, you know. So I think it was my dad that found out about it, because he's he's big into history and he's involved in the school district back home and he does the part of the cultural language, like integration for the, for the curriculum. But he called a contact he had at the museum and he just kind of said, oh, I heard, you have a tattoo kit, you know, just made it up and they're like, oh, how did you know? Like it wasn't even something that they had publicized or anything.
Speaker 1:So he had arranged, booked a meeting for us to go view it, and then Courtney contacted me to do the episode and I was like, oh, hey, let's just do these two things together because that would be so cool, yeah, but to have the tools like okay, what surprised me was that they were tap tools, yeah, and like it surprised me to see that. But they were like itty bitty little tap tools. They were really cute. But then the more I spoke to Like community people who had knowledge of the tattooing they would say, yeah, like, like the tap tools, like, oh, that's surprising because I always thought it was the, the bone in the leg, the front leg, like the all that was a poke tool, but no, it was. They would create little tap tools from them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in I seen a little pair of tap tools. I Can't totally remember where they were from, but somewhere in Polynesia, but they were tiny, tiny little Things and I was just like what is good, these are just so small, and so that's kind of cool to learn that the ones that are here and that were used around this area or air, you know it were tap. That's so cool.
Speaker 1:And it was sort of like a modern one, like it had sewing needles in place it didn't have bone needles but and it had the Buffalo bison wool wrapped around and I don't know if that was too to tap with or if that was to put pigment in, because there was this blue pigment in the wool which really got me like, oh, what that was? Because it was very vibrant like a cobalt blue. So I'm not sure that might have been to like put the pigment in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to rub it in. Yeah, wow, that's kind of cool. I guess we need to get some funding to do some research. Not me, necessarily, but the one phrase that I loved listening to that and I'll just Reshare it with you and just get your response as I remind you of it. You said I'm where I am supposed to be, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I Think, just because for so long I had felt disconnected and like I didn't, I didn't belong in this world. So that was sort of my, my reaction, and like counterculture, doing the opposite of what people expected of me and just feeling lost, like I didn't belong here, I didn't belong in art school in Europe. And then I came back and I didn't belong here again, just to like it's, my feelings were correct, you know, I didn't belong there and I didn't belong in in that world, in the education system, as a classroom teacher, sort of like I'm just upholding this society that I don't believe in. And my final year of teaching I was teaching grade 9, social, and it's all about the government systems and I'm like I can't do this, you know, like I can't do this.
Speaker 1:And Because it becomes like as a teacher it's always like do you teach for knowledge or do you teach for the exam? And at that point in ninth grade they have to do their provincial exams and I Was really torn because I want them to be successful, I want them to Learn what they need to do to be successful. But that meant Indoctrinating them about like the Canadian government, you know, and like I couldn't agree with it, and it was a huge internal struggle, you know. So I did my best, but it's so hard to try to radicalize from inside the system, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, I got a cough there. It always actually happens when I'm interviewing and I always notice it's when, when people are like in the perf, you know, like saying the most awesome thing, you're just like, oh, this is amazing. And then you're like, oh, I got a tickle in my throat. And my friend Gord I've interviewed him a few times and he knows that that happens yeah, but yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:That's a awesome insight that you brought forward is that you know you had this feeling that I didn't belong here, and it's sometimes, I would say, we feel that that's a problem with us. But what you said is is that, why didn't belong there? Because that's not where you belonged, right, like you were trying to fit into something that wasn't actually created for you. It was created to oppress you and to erase you. So, yeah, that's just such a powerful insight I think to highlight and bring forward is like people are struggling With that feeling of I don't belong here. Maybe the reality is is you don't belong in that situation. Maybe that intuition is right and you just need to take the steps to find out where you do belong. It doesn't mean that you don't belong, you know, anywhere. It just means that you don't belong where you are Right, and so to take the steps to find that, take that journey to find where you do belong right, that's just a powerful insight. Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. Thank you for saying that. You know, just kind of like reaffirm that, yeah, because that is something that I've always struggled with. I remember like always getting in trouble as a kid because I'm doing the opposite of what everyone wants me to or everyone expects Me to do, and it just never felt right. You know, I'm not doing it for attention. Actually I don't want anyone's attention. I could, I just want to be. But you know, to kind of lean into that and be okay with the fact that you're not okay where you are and Know, just be confident that you will find the work you're meant to do, you will find the people you're meant to be with and you will find your community. I guess had another thought, but it's gone.
Speaker 2:That's not right. That happened to me the other day too. We're both, keith and I, were like that one's gone. But yeah, no, I think that's important, and also to mention that it's Realizing that it's not even where we arrive. You know, we find out who we are in that journey, and so the thing is is just take that next step. You know, because we don't know what the next step may be. Because you know, you took that next step and you went to earth line and then the next step was okay, I'm coming back. And then you're like, nope, I'm, this is not the right direction. So you just got to pivot and take another step in a different direction.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's a pretty powerful thing when I think, like even I, I guess, when I look back at my life and the choices that I've made, I've always kind of decided to do the the Not the odd thing, but like the unexpected thing. You know, starting right from when I decided to move to Europe and go to school, like everyone wanted me to be close. You know, and even I remember there being conversations between, like, my parents and my aunties and uncles and just Not fully understanding the meaning of it, where I think it was one of my aunties said to my mom, like how are you, how are you okay with her going so far away, like, and then understanding now that that came from the Europeans taking our children away. You know, how are you okay with sending her so far away? You know, like we're fighting so hard to bring our kids back and here you are sending her away. You know. But then, even when I got my facial tattoo, when we did that work, going back to work and not being sure like are they going to fire me? You know, walking around with a visible facial tattoo.
Speaker 1:But I was lucky in the sense that I was teaching on reserve in my community and the administration was a Community member or Community members, and they were very open and welcoming and I went in and like, hey, I did this thing. It was really important to me. I understand if this is like you don't want this to be seen, but this is what I did. You know, I'm willing to like put makeup on but know that it's not going to cover it. You know, it'll just kind of like make it a little lighter and then to have them say like no, it's beautiful, like I think you need to be showing this, we need to be showing the students this and yeah. So just all these.
Speaker 1:And then I guess changing my name too, like that wasn't such a big thing. But when I legally changed my name to ski command, I no one was really doing it yet and I had to go through all these like hoops and like pay for everything. I think it costs like something like a thousand dollars by the end of it To get all the paperwork, all the history, criminal record check and everything. And now they're doing it for free. So just like being okay with taking these, these steps and doing like the weird thing or the odd thing, and that's when I really feel most comfortable as myself, and I like when I look back at pictures of myself in middle school I just cringe. You know, like just like goth rock kid with like black makeup all down my face and spikes and a frown, it's like, oh no, I was always that like, yeah, it's just me, yeah, that's cool. Um.
Speaker 2:You know it's pretty cool to watch again in the the skin digit in this episode. You had a whole day or so Preparing for your sister's tattoo. It was such a cool thing to watch and you know, going out picking berries, processing them, setting up the teepee and then finally doing that work. What was that like, taking that time to prepare for that specific P.
Speaker 1:I think that was of the entire experience. That was like the most natural and that was the most comfortable. I think Part of because it's already things that we do in our lives, but to have my, my father and my sister and her partner and my cousin, you know, just to have everyone around and we're just doing like a family thing, like every summer we set up our teepee for the pow, wow, blah, blah, blah. And then to have my auntie come over and like help us make the choke cherries, and it didn't feel like it was being filmed, it didn't feel like it was we were performing in any way. And I feel most natural when I have my sister with me, like right now I'm using my I'm not with my sister voice, like when we're together we're unhinged or range, like just insane, and that's just who we are. And to have that freedom, I guess to just be ourselves, was really beautiful.
Speaker 1:And I guess, even when it came down to the tattoo I don't I think it was in the episode, but I did the original sketch and it had, like the corn bean and squash, the three sisters, cause we are three sisters. But there was a pumpkin in there at first, but then her and her partner brought the corn, beans and squash that they had grown in their own garden and gifted it to me. And then they asked like oh, do you think we could make this squash the one you gifted? So like I just kind of redrew it and even to this day, like that's still like the most meaningful part for her. You know, when she's showing it off that's what she she always like, yeah, like this was the actual squash they gifted, yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was. It was hinted at in the episode. I believe, Just because I think what you said, you were just like oh, and then we'll make the squash the one that you gifted.
Speaker 1:Right, oh, okay, yeah, and then I think even just having everyone in the teepee together, like that's very yeah, like we never went teepee camping but we'd set up every year at the powwows and just that would be the place that all like my parents, my dad's siblings would come and hang out in front of the teepee and then we'd all just be like gathering together and then to be able to do the tattoo in the teepee itself was just a really beautiful experience. And the way they set up the camera was really cool too, like it was above and yeah, that was really fun. But and then to have the dogs cause, like we never really set up the teepee at the house, so the dogs were like, oh my God, what is this? Yeah, and Bannock dog he was like trying to crawl underneath in the back, like he really wanted to be a part of this whole experience. Yeah, Awesome.
Speaker 2:You know, when I look at your socials cause of course I wanted to, you know, catch up on what you're doing and be able to speak to what's going on you know, it seems that you're doing a lot of facial markings. You know that must feel like so epic to be able to provide that for your community and those in the area and those who travel, I imagine, to you. So what is that like?
Speaker 1:I feel like that is sort of what my purpose is when it comes to tattooing to be able to provide that space for, I guess, safety, for female energy or, like woman, like just that support, I guess, because that's it's something that's missing, but also that's what I am most comfortable with. Like I've only really tattooed two men and they've been like in my family, you know, and it's just that's the kind of energy that I feel most comfortable working with and I feel like that's where I'm giving the best of myself as well. And like, honestly, if I'm being 100% honest, tattooing is like hard work for me. It's exhausting, physically, mentally, emotionally. So I have been, I've done a lot more of facial markings than I've even posted. But it's like I'm sort of stuck in this place between posting the work that I'm doing because I'm proud of it and not posting, because when I do post a tattoo, I kind of get a lot of DMs requesting and I just haven't had the emotional bandwidth to be able to do that. So I do feel bad about it, because there are people out there who've reached out to me, who I haven't even like gotten back to or whatever, but it's I'm really struggling, I guess, when it comes to tattooing people I don't know and also dealing with just the energy that's released in the space afterwards. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I can probably remember when I did my first tattoo on myself. I cried like crazy and one of my favorite memories is you like standing kind of close and like can I give you a hug? And I'm like no.
Speaker 1:And you're like okay, and you walked and stood on the other side of the ring. It was like very respectful, thank you for that. But yeah, just very. That was my own energy that I couldn't deal with in that moment. So I've had to do like very. I've learned to do very like specific protections, you know, like with traditional medicines in that, and even with that I do find it exhausting, but it is truly something I love to do. So I'm just kind of like trying to find my place in there.
Speaker 1:And then, when it comes to, I guess my biggest struggle right now as an artist is like finances, you know, cause I just wanna do things I love and I just wanna share with people. Yeah, and when it comes down to like doing tattoo work, I'm at a point where I need to accept money, but I don't feel right accepting money for the tattoo work because it's spiritual, it's emotional, it's yeah, it's cultural. So I find even in that respect, I'm kind of like hesitant to do tattoos because I don't want the motivation to be money. So, yeah, I don't know, I'm really at a weird place with that tattooing right now, as I'm very selective about the work that I'm doing and who I'm tattooing, and it feels like I feel a bit of shame. Pardon me, I feel a bit of shame kind of surrounding it how I'm being so selective, but that's just me. Like I need. This is something I'm working through, I guess.
Speaker 2:Is that. I think it's a reoccurring conversation that I've been having with a lot of the new practitioners, those folks who are just picking up the practice and navigating through it, and I would say that the reality is is that that's why I wanted to do the tattoo school, because for a long time there was just a few of us and so I was like no, we got to share of this burden, because it is a burden, and I think the phrase that you used is that this work is heavy, and I definitely feel that, and I will also say, maybe just offer some encouragement to know that you don't need to take all of it. It's not yours to carry in. That's what those protocols and those boundaries are for is to help to protect you to do that work that you need to do.
Speaker 2:Because the reality is is the marks will happen when they're supposed to happen, and maybe that person isn't supposed to be marked by you. That's why you're not answering it and that's nothing to do with them. That's just the way that it works. Well, maybe you're not available and so they go. That actually gives them room to find the person that they're supposed to be marked by. So, just putting that out there for you and I would say also for everyone who's going through the work, because I know people who are starting the practice will have those same struggles. I've had those conversations a lot lately and also the conversations around money and all of that type of those challenges. So just be encouraged that you're in the same place, that everyone else is right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really good to hear.
Speaker 2:And you're not alone in that process, and reach out to those who you know or maybe don't know, or if you need someone, reach out and I can connect you so that you can have conversations and not feel that burden, that heaviness. And I totally get it. And that's actually one of the reasons why I stepped away from marking when my dad passed right. I just couldn't hold that heaviness. It was just like, okay, I need to step away from this. Then I went to academia and that was like I definitely can't do this.
Speaker 1:That's even worse.
Speaker 2:Which is always. I understand when you said, like I always get that pull. To come back to teaching, and that's the one thing I would say is I love about teaching as the students, but all the bureaucratic bullshit is just not for me. I just that's for me is even more challenging and more exhausting. But yeah, just be encouraged, you're in the right spot and you're doing the right work, and protecting yourself is part of that work.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think I finally I also kind of got a bit discouraged when I started seeing people who I didn't know, who I decided to tattoo, then turn around and start offering tattooing and it's like I have to kind of sift through like my judgments, you know, like okay, maybe this is someone who is meant to do this work, but what are their practices? You know, like, how hygienic, how safe are they doing this? And I don't know. And then I feel the weight of that responsibility that I was maybe the person who, like enabled them to say, like I could do that, you know. So it just makes me kind of uncomfortable knowing that that was.
Speaker 1:It feels like a breach of trust, I guess you know, and makes me uncomfortable sort of tattooing people that I don't know, because I don't know what they're going to take. It feels like they're taking from me, you know, and it shouldn't, but it does. And I also, on the other side of it, I don't want to be gatekeeping and I don't want to be, you know, saying oh, you shouldn't be doing this, you know, because I want people to be doing this work but I want it to be safe for everyone, because if something goes wrong because of something that they did, then that reflects on the entire community, you know. So, yeah, just a lot of weird energy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot to navigate, for sure. And you know, keith and I even had this conversation at the end of his. Our conversation was that you know the health aspects and I think bringing that forward here will help, right. So, bringing forward like, hey, you know, if you are doing the work, you need to have the respect for not only the work itself but those people that you're working on. You know, and as Keith brought forward, you know, some people say that you know, oh well, our ancestors didn't use gloves and they didn't use all this stuff. And he was like, well, we didn't have to deal with hepatitis, hiv, all of those things that were brought during the colonial reality. So, yeah, just important again to reemphasize do the work and do the work in the way that it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2:And my friend Gord always says to me you know one of the things that I really learned from my friend Gord, who's a MiGMA cultural tattoo practitioner and tattoo artist, he said you know, we can only control our own actions and our own words, and so that really helped me to understand that yo, I'm not really responsible for their shit. You know, those are the steps that they took and it's not like you said, hey, yo, pick this up and start rolling with it. So you know that's not really yours to carry, but I get it. I've been there and I continue to be there in many times. But just remembering those words of my friend Gord helped to ease that burden.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I always like to bring forward those things that people share with me so maybe they can help to share some. You know, help someone else. Yeah, if I can thank you all later, guys, so you kind of we kind of touched on this you said every time I do a tattoo, I'm giving part of my energy to someone. And then you have also mentioned that in many cases the work is very heavy, and so we've kind of talked a little bit about that. But I just wanted to bring that forward. But I guess that leads me to the next real question what are your processes, if you're comfortable with sharing, for caring for yourself before, during and after? Because of that heaviness? You know all the work, the energy that is expended and you know what are some of the things, if you're comfortable sharing, that you do to help protect yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I guess first of all I have to be like in a good sort of mental health state. I need to be, you know, like thinking good thoughts. I can't be in a depressive or like anxiety-ridden state because, like that is, I don't want to put that energy into anyone. So I won't be taking bookings if I'm like not in a good place mentally, physically, emotionally. And then, because I work mainly out of my own home, I have to prepare the space as well, like not just like the cleaning and like the organizing, but just making it inviting and a safe space for people to come in, but also potentially a safe space for me to stay in after maybe people that I don't want to be in. So I have to do like a smudge or whatever and just prepare the space and kind of set the boundaries of this is where we're going to be. We're not going to access other parts of the house, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:And then when people come over, try to encourage them. You know, like, bring someone or bring support, or you know you're very welcome to bring anything you need, anyone you need, because this is a community process, you know it's not meant to only be like one-on-one, unless that's what they want it to be. So in most instances I have like a group of people come over and it's really fun and it's really beautiful and it's just like crazy auntie laughter and like joking around and having a good time, and often more than one person gets tattooed in that arrangement as well, and then, like, for the most part it's very good energy that's released and is experienced altogether. And then when we're done I have whenever one leaves then I do like the tear down and everything procedures, but then I also have to cleanse the space spiritually. So there's this different smudge that I use that sends the spirits away. You know, like, thank you for being present, thank you for serving your purpose, but now you need to leave because this is my home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I gotta go to sleep, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool, thank you. I always like to bring that forward and I think you also mentioned earlier, you know, just taking that time to rest afterwards is just so essential. You know, not hurrying into the next thing maybe, which you know as part of that hustle kind of culture of just like running into the next thing, and I'm definitely guilty of that, you know but yeah, just taking that rest is important.
Speaker 1:Well, I think I've gotten to the point where, like, because I've had so many instances of burnout, I just can't, like I physically cannot anymore. So, like after the markets we just did or after tattooing, like the next day is a write off for me and like my family knows their like supportive. Thank goodness that, like, I will need at least a day or more to just not be a human, you know, just be like in a cocoon or something to recuperate and recover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's important. I think again, to bring forward is part of the work is also those you surround yourself with, and so part of the care and part of the process of carrying that is the people around you understanding the work that you're doing and what you need to care, the care that you need to be able to come back.
Speaker 1:And to be able to continue. You know, come back and continue to, I guess, like continuously be learning and growing as well, because it can very easily become like a very extractive procedure or practice where you just continually giving away and it's just not sustainable for anyone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, rejuvenation, mm, hmm. And I think the question that part of your protocol for bringing guests, collaborators, clients, into the work is you know you're still working in that process and so what are some of those things, the steps that you take to initiate that initial client reaction or collaboration? I don't really like talking about in terms of client, but more collaborator, the people that you're working with. Is that just people message you and you work through it and start a conversation, or I've never really thought about it in terms like, I guess, in definable terms like this.
Speaker 1:I just for me as more of, I guess, an intuitive process, there's something about a person or an individual that, like innately, I understand that this is someone that I can work with or this is a practice that I would like to engage in, and I don't know what that identifying factor is. But you know, I've had people reaching out to me, messaging me. Well, they said they've been messaging me but I haven't seen them. But then they came along with someone to get a tattoo and I was like, oh yeah, let's do yours too. So it was very sort of, I guess, like happenstance, that they were able to participate and get tattooed and I was able to feel comfortable in that space and feel like, yeah, this is the way it's supposed to be, and I find that that's been kind of how I've been living my life for the last few years is just, whatever happens is the way it's meant to be. And if you have to force something or like replan, set plans and then redo them again, then it's probably not.
Speaker 2:Not the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think that reminds me of something I wanted to talk about, not necessarily with taking on new collaborators, but for me it's. I get a lot of requests from people to help them, to mentor them, to show them how to tattoo and all that type of stuff. But you know, the relationships that I think mentorship relationships that have been the best have been people I have tattooed, people I've already known, you know. So I think you know if you're looking to be mentored by someone, if you're looking to get work by someone, find a way to somehow build that relationship before you initiate that experience. So that could be coming up to one of the markets and being like yo Heather, you know, like what can I buy from you investing in you? You know those things are maybe important to highlight, you know, and people come to me and they get tattooed and so I really find out who they are and so I'm able to go oh well, I think you know you're the right person to share this knowledge with and for people not to expect, just because I have helped people in the past, that they're going to get that mentorship. It's really about for me seeing who that person is, and that doesn't happen simply over an email, over, you know, an Instagram message. That really happens with being physically with someone for an amount of time.
Speaker 2:If you're looking for a mentorship or an apprenticeship, I would even say as a professional tattoo artist, go get tattooed by the person that you're looking to get apprentice by or mentored by. You know, spend time with them, help them to find out who you are as an individual. And I would also say maybe that's another process for people wanting to get the work done is to find opportunities to visit with you. You know, whether you're giving a presentation somewhere or you're presenting your, the things that you make, those creative things, the beadwork and, I think, dolls and stuff like that oh, those cool. But yeah, find an opportunity to connect with the practitioner you know, in a respectful way, of course, but ways of investing in who they are and I would say part of that also might help to relieve some of that financial burden While somebody wants to get the work done. Well, if they come and buy some of your work while they're paying for something else, that helps to support you. That then allows you to do that tattoo work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's it is. I think that's really important thank you for saying that to kind of establish that relationship, because the tattoo work in and of itself is a relationship, you know, and it could only take, you know, two hours or an hour, but I've given part of myself, my energy, my life force, it to someone and that's going to be with them forever, you know. So, for for me it's a big commitment, you know, because I have to give the best of myself and that idea of building a relationship and like establishing sort of, I guess, rules for not rules, what am I looking for? Protocols, yeah, like those boundaries and respecting those boundaries, and getting to know someone on a human level before requesting more, you know, because otherwise it feels extractive.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like you have this knowledge and the big thing now is don't gate, keep so. Like now I want this knowledge, so it's your responsibility to teach me. It's. It's hard to navigate as, as a teacher, I guess you know, as an educator first of all and then a practitioner. That's a well, yeah, I do want to share this, I do want, I do want it to be open, but I don't want to be used, you know, or just to be a part of someone's claim for clout.
Speaker 2:I guess you know I struggle with the whole conversation around gatekeeping and I've told my students that, no, you are a gatekeeper because that is your boundary. You're responsible for that person if you share that knowledge with them. And I guess the way we could translate it is you're not going to teach the grade six student something that you're teaching in grade 12. They're just not ready for it. And so for me, when I look for people to mentor, I'm looking for the person who is ready for that knowledge in the right place, rolling up in the right way, showing the respect, and for me I would say gate, keep away. The reality is is that that you know that? For me, it's true, those are our things that we have to hold dear and near to ourselves. It's not that we're not going to share it, it's just that maybe they're not the right person to share it with. You know, our ancestors did that. Right, like. Why would you teach somebody us to be a storyteller who doesn't have a good memory? Right, like you wouldn't, because it doesn't make sense. You're wasting your time.
Speaker 2:So if you are looking and observing and thinking, oh, I want to train someone, you're looking for those things. How are their interpersonal skills. How are they treating people, you know? Do they have care and compassion, you know? Are they just seeking clout? All of those things will be ways for you to go well. Maybe they're supposed to do this work, but I'm not supposed to teach them right?
Speaker 2:So those are some things that I would just put forward, and we need to have gatekeepers in a lot of different ways, because some of us don't have the ability to hold some of that knowledge right. Like I'm not a medicine person I don't claim to be I don't have the ability to do it. You know, you probably need to start quite a bit earlier than the age that I am, but yeah, and I shouldn't expect that I should be allowed to have that knowledge. You know, we have to realize that we have aptitudes, we have gifts, and so the journey is to find out what are those gifts and how am I supposed to use them, as opposed to, that's what I want. So there's a big difference between the way that people roll up to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that just reminds me of some negative experiences that I've had of people reaching out requesting tattoos and then, for whatever reason, I say I'm not able to do this, or blah, blah, blah, and then having them lash out at me and attack me personally Okay, you're just proving that it was a good choice, you know, and then just later see that they've got someone else to tattoo them, but it's very clearly a tattoo that's not of their culture, you know, and it's like ooh, okay, like I was saved so many times you know, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:By just like stepping back and like I'm sorry, I'm not available all night you know, yeah, and just not taking ownership.
Speaker 2:This is not yours, it's so hard. Yeah, exactly, it is so hard because you know we are caring and compassionate people. You know that's part of the reason we do the work. So but yeah, again, you know through other conversations of just like it's not yours.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly, I'm not a part of that story. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So what is your design process when it comes to doing the work?
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so lately, when I'm doing mostly facial tattooing, I am putting it up to the individual who's approaching me. Tell them to consult with their families or to, you know, ask of their ancestors, you know what is the design that's right for them. And then I tell them to come with an idea and then we'll work through it. And then usually the idea that they come with is what we end up going with. But sometimes there's a few like little alterations that take place during the process and you can tell when it's right and when it's wrong.
Speaker 1:And the one I did most recently we drew her design on. She looked in the mirror and she just like you could just tell it was like I don't know, okay, that in it, yeah, exactly. And they're like no, no, no, I think it's like, no, no, that's not. It Like immediately, you see in their face, right away. And then we changed it up. It still wasn't right. I think we changed it four or five times, just subtle differences. And then the like the fifth time, you could just see like her eyes were like oh, my God, you know, like they're bright, they're sparkly, it's like okay, that's it, you know. Yeah. So in that regard, because it's something that's very personal to them and their journeys, their facial markings. I leave it.
Speaker 1:It's a collaboration between the two of us, but I really respect the design that they come with. When I'm doing other tattoos that are more like my designs or my drawings, which I haven't done a lot of lately, but that's okay. It's very much in the style of my drawing, like kind of loose lines, and it's usually some sort of plants or yeah, and so my process for that would be just like if I was going to paint, what would it look like? And how can I, I guess, marry the ideas that I have or the images that I have but connect them with the beadwork patterns or like how can I connect the two cultures? I guess you know like, like.
Speaker 1:Like European education, I received of you know realistic interpretation, still life type things with the traditional depictions, and it's like it's the idea of a flower. It's not 100% exactly what it looks like, you know, it's the spirit of the animal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And you know, it gives an interesting reason for me to reflect. I suppose just hearing, because you know, of course, when we're in conversation it's just that little spark that's like, hmm, that's interesting, right. And when I think about that is a couple of things come up for me. One is my friend, julia Mungyel Gray, who's a Papua New Guinean. She says we are the new, old Right. So just that principle of we are creating what the next generation will call old. So we're looking back now and going, oh well, that's old Right, but at one time that was something that was new and it was an innovation, it was a move forward.
Speaker 2:And then I would also say that the medium you know, when I look at, say, a pictograph as opposed to a tattoo design, or as compared to a basket tree design, they all look very different, but that's because of the constraints of the medium, right. So that basket tree design is very geometrical because of the way that it has to be stitched in, imbricated into the basket. But you can see its connection to the other two and that's why I always talk about a visual language. And so, yeah, just honoring the medium and not worrying about this concept of traditional Right, that's one of the things I really am trying to push back against is this idea of traditional, and I would say that those are ancestral patterns and that we are creating them for what we need to do today, because we're interpreting them through our contemporary lens. Right, and so yeah, just something just sparked in my mind that I've never, maybe, fully articulated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, thank you. It just made me think of like, like, okay, ancestrally people would be receiving tattoos for achievements, you know. And then how does that translate today? You know, like there's different, you know there's different ideas of what a lifetime achievement might be, you know. So that might necessitate or not necessitate, but like warrant marking or a ceremony for achieving that Right.
Speaker 1:And a lot of times people will ask me well, like, what do you have to do to earn the tattoo?
Speaker 1:And it's like, well, I can tell you what I was told, but that's not going to be the same for you.
Speaker 1:So you ultimately have to decide if you've achieved that, if you've earned that, and like in discussions with, like your family or your elders or your community you know, it's not for me to say, because I'm still learning too I still know hardly anything. You know, like we're all rediscovering and some things are lost forever, but other things, like will come together and maybe make a new reason for certain markings. And I think, just allowing space for that, but not being very what's the word, I've lost my thought Strict, but also not being like I've lost it. That's all right. I think you're just honoring the new achievements, because we're living in a completely different world and, you know, for a lot of people just making it to a certain age is an incredible achievement, you know and like that, whereas before that might not be an achievement, but overcoming the incredible oppressive environment that we live in that wants us to be gone, you know, that wants young people to be taking their own lives, to just make it to adulthood is a huge achievement, a lot of time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, judy, or Jody Potts, who's a Han Gwichen practitioner, says that when we were in Hawaii at the traditional tattoo festival in Kohala, you know Jody said that it, you know women would come and be like, well, I need to earn this. She's like you're here, that's enough, right. The fact that you want to wear it, that's enough, right, that is, like you said, an achievement. You've made it to this point. You know that is enough.
Speaker 2:And then another thought that comes forward is I had a fellow reach out to me and say, well, I would love to get my traditional markings, but you know, for my people we could only get those markings if you killed somebody, when somebody was intruding on the village. Right, or you took ahead, so to speak. My response was well, what do you do? And they shared with me oh well, you know, I teach language, I'm reviving our language, and so for me I'm like well, if you really think about that metaphorically, you are taking ahead, you are exactly. So.
Speaker 2:For me it's like what are these new things that we need to celebrate that equate to something similar in a contemporary context? Right, because really you're doing that work counter to the erasure, right? So you really are a warrior in that same reality that you're protecting your people Right, and so we protect our people by helping them to see the world like their ancestors seen it Right. And so those are things that maybe we got to consider. And my friend, gordon Sparks, again, he's doing a lot of hunting and fishing and basket making markings because those are traditional or ancestral practices that help the community and so those things should be honored, right. Well, maybe we need a tide handing.
Speaker 1:I don't like that, mark, right yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, who knows, you know 10 years of tanning hides or whatever, or 10,. You know 10 of them. You've been part of it. Well, you know that is something to celebrate. So how do we create these new marks for the people to be Right, like you think about it? Oh, wow, I really want to get that tattoo. All we have to be, you know, part of tanning tan hides. I'm just arbitrarily throwing out 10.
Speaker 1:I don't know, yeah, exactly One, yeah, exactly, but yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that helps people to strive for something. Yeah, I don't know, just something to think about. Yeah, I think part of this is we're beginning to create these things for the coming generations, and so these conversations are important, and I think we won't have you wouldn't have these conversations in a regular tattoo podcast. So I really appreciate you bringing forward your energy and helping me to think through these things, and I would also say, like you know, if I say something stupid, I'm really just trying to think through some of this stuff. Some of this isn't, you know, something that's really been explored maybe. So, as I always say, just be gentle, right, you know, have that generosity that we need to have more and more of in this world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, be gentle, and I guess I would add be beachable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Like just be able to admit that maybe, maybe I was wrong about something and I apologize if I hurt anyone or if I offended anyone, and I'm open to being corrected?
Speaker 2:I guess Totally. Yeah, big time. It's kind of cool that I put this quote at this point. You said in the beginning of the Skindiginous episode that these marks are about identity and you can't take it away from me. What do you want to share more about that?
Speaker 1:I think that that was the moment, I guess, receiving this facial tattooing.
Speaker 1:It was the moment that I really embraced, you know, kind of going back to I'm not supposed to be here, I'm not supposed to fit in that affirmed it for me, you know, like, because when I got mine, I only knew one other person who had their face tattooed as well, and it was a huge thing and like people in the community were, oh, what's that, you know, and I think a lot of people didn't know how to react or respond to it, and that made me more comfortable and you know, that was the kind of the turning point, I guess, as a 20-something woman.
Speaker 1:That was the point where I stopped wearing like so much makeup, you know, and I stopped, like trying to achieve a certain look or identity or feel, I think even when I went to get tattooed by you, I was wearing, like these sort of greenish hazel contacts, and you know, that was that idea of like wanting to look different or, and for me, like my mom has green eyes because she has Irish ancestry, but so like that was like I wanted to look more like her, but still, you know, just really accepting and embracing this person that I am and being okay with all of that and being comfortable in the world, in the space that I occupy. And yeah, like it's the tattoo, I guess it's not my identity, it's just another part of me, but it very much felt like I had removed my makeup and it was there the entire time you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool. Thank you for sharing that. It's a pretty powerful testimony, I would say. You know, and even that movement of like this is just who I am and I'm happy with it. You know, that just gives me goosebumps. You know, just hearing that reality, because I think that's what this work is about. You know, and you just encapsulated it so perfectly, and so that's why I wanted to bring it up and give an opportunity to share.
Speaker 1:Thanks. I feel like another dimension of that was like the people in my life who weren't, who didn't really have my best interests, they just sort of fell away as well. You know, I think it's when I made the decision to be very, to just embrace it fully and go for it, a lot of people who were not of the culture, who are European descent. They just sort of melted away because they told me, like, do not do that. You know, my dad got a tattoo and he regretted it because he lost a job or whatever. And I was like you know, it's just a job right. Like I'm more concerned about my spirit and where I fit in the community and how I can help. Like I'm not concerned about like a nine to five.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, just, I'm not concerned about fitting in, I'm concerned about my spirit. What a powerful statement, thank you. Yeah, that's awesome. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:You were thinking I was just going to say that along the same lines of I really expected to get a lot of heat from people, you know, from people who didn't understand a lot of judgments, but I feel like that confidence that I've stepped into it separates them, Like there's a bubble around me and they don't even approach me. They don't even come near me, you know, because I'm not going to tattooed my face.
Speaker 2:Try me, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So I was really shocked by that that I didn't receive a lot negative backlash I guess any negative backlash really because I was fully expecting it, I was preparing for it and I was ready to defend myself and, yeah, it just served like I feel like it's a protection. You know it protects me from those negative aspects, those negative people and, like I was saying when I first came in, you know things have not been wonderful for me lately, but I feel good about it. You know, like I'm living the life I love and like everything else can like be bad, but I'm still I wake up happy to be alive every morning. Yeah, yeah, and um oof, I had another.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, I would say, and I wanted to talk about it earlier but I forgot because I was trying to be present but it reminds me now that feeling that you had in yourself when you went back of like, oh, I might lose my job because I tattooed, put these ancestral marks on my face, like what? Right, and you know I've heard that multiple stories of you know, from all the way from California to Alaska, of people, women, taking on their ancestral marks, their face markings, and that was one of the thoughts that they had to contend with. Right, like that just absolutely blows my mind that that's one of the things you think that you have to navigate through while receiving your ancestral marks.
Speaker 1:I might lose my way of life, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's insane.
Speaker 2:Absolutely insane Um.
Speaker 1:I guess in my respect it made it impossible for me to continue in that career, but that was a good thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. Uh, those unintended consequences maybe are the blessing that we need.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty cool. So I think that's one of the things that I think I've heard from you guys is that you've been able to do a lot of different things. I think that's one of the things that I've heard from you guys is that you've been able to do a lot of different things.
Speaker 1:Um, I think I'm speaking more in terms of tattooing myself as opposed to tattooing others because, as we learned in my first tattoo, I cannot hand poke myself. Yeah, that for me, like for personal reasons.
Speaker 2:it's like no, go, stand over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I think we need to record this, we need to be over there. Um, yeah, like, for me, the process of that is very violent, like the stabbing. I can receive hand poke tattoos or machine tattoos, but I can't do it to myself and I guess, for me, um, I guess it's just my healing, healing myself. I, uh, I can't be deliberately causing myself that harm. I can't be stabbing myself, which I don't know. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but it just feels so invasive. Um, whereas Stitching it's to me it brings up ideas of creating something new, or repairing something old, or mending that's. You know, it's deserving of love, it's deserving of care and it's uh, preserving an item like an article of clothing, or it's, uh, mending something for someone I love. It's very much a? Uh, a loving process, uh, hmm, yeah, yeah, it's very much a, um, even the, I guess, even the process of stitching itself it's, it's much more intimate. I find it's a slower process and it just feels like creating something new to me. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a beautiful, um, it's a beautiful picture. You know that you're painting. When you talk about it, Um, you know, I'm just you're. You know, when you say that you're mending something that's old, you know, I just imagine. You know, because we talk about this work as tattoo, medicine is healing and just picturing, you know, that garment maybe that, uh, you know, was treated in a way that it shouldn't have been treated and it was worn out and started to have holes in it, Um, but then you're taking, using that metaphor to speak of mending those things as you're stitching. It just creates a very beautiful picture in my mind of, uh, that experience, right, and you're bringing together those pieces that maybe, uh, are worn out or whatever, or are missing. Even you know part, maybe there's parts of that garment that are that is our being, that is our soul, that it's missing, and so you're using that, uh, those stitches, to mend and to heal and to create, right, that's fucking badass.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you for teaching me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, it's my honor you know, I'm so, uh, honored and proud and stoked of the work that you've been doing. You know, um, you know, doing it in your own way and taking the steps that you've been taking, the steps that you need to take, you know, uh fills my heart to see those things happen, and when I seen the pictures of the face markings you were doing, I was just like holy shit. You know, like it's just beautiful, amazing and powerful work and it's important for us to hold each other up in those things that we're doing and to help each other know how important it is right that work that you're doing is just so powerful.
Speaker 2:Thank you yeah and so I just wanted to take that opportunity to hold you up in that work and you know, again, share that. Whenever you need anything, just let me know and if I can, I will try to help you with whatever you need or make the connections that you may need. So just reach out if you need it right. And with that I just want to offer a final opportunity to uh is there any questions, thoughts, things that come up for you that you'd like to put forward? Any questions, ideas, anything that you think needs to be said that hasn't been said? Yeah, I mean, it's a really broad, open question, but I always find, you know, at the end of an interview you're always like, oh, I wish they would have asked me that, right, and I don't always have that, so I'm just opening it up.
Speaker 1:And you can take a minute.
Speaker 2:It's cool, hmm both taking a drink. You're just listening, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, I really don't think I have anything more to add. I feel like the conversation was like really kind of covered everything. I was kind of nervous to come and to discuss tattooing just because of where I'm at with it, like right now, where I'm not avoiding it, I'm just like being very, very careful and selective of how much energy I devote to tattooing people. I don't know, you know, and I'm still figuring that out and also, part of the difficulty for me was coming out of tattoo school, coming back home, quitting my job and thinking like I'm going to focus on taking care of myself, I'm going to build my beadwork practice, I'm going to build my tattooing practice, and then the entire world shut down.
Speaker 1:You know, and being close to people was very dangerous, and it just added another layer onto the responsibility of being a practitioner, of taking care of community and taking care of people that come to you for healing Just made it another, more thing to be, another thing to be more aware of, more hypervigilant of. The one thing that I really felt good about, though, was like okay, I got this, I wear a mask, wear gloves, don't touch that. Now I need to sanitize my hands.
Speaker 2:You know, I had that Totally.
Speaker 1:So it gave me confidence in that respect. But kind of, I guess starting my practice in that environment was very difficult and I think even to date like I haven't done as many tattoos as I would have if the pandemic didn't happen. But again, you know it's probably meant to be considering how heavy the work is, how emotional it is for me and how invested I have to get into it, I think I am like I don't regret the fact that it had a very slow start and a very slow practice. I guess Slow fashion you know, Totally, I think it just.
Speaker 1:I guess that was it. I guess that was the thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really reminds me of the conversation I had with Echo Alec, who is in T'Kup'n and from my community in my nation, and we were talking about her practice of, you know, a decolonized business practice that really moves in the cycles and rhythms, right, and so she really talks about, oh well, you know, we've come through spring, summer, fall, and we're Elementary雅筛aly it's just like when you're little and then we're there at Kekepepe. This is like the traditional, the expert research, the governance of technology. You know in, you know across the board, and so we get the same Haush там and you know law, laws, so and so on and so forth. But and what we get is that she does that thing. I really I do and I do and I really like breasts and breastplate.
Speaker 2:So say like I was時 many times, right, I would have told her on Bbo에는 then, and so I'm sure she'd be like, said like she should like breastplate, that we're in to just work through that season in the way that it needs to be, and it, just as a metaphor, it really speaks to that journey that you took yourself of. Oh, I'm going into learning all this stuff, this busy activity of the tattoo school, and coming out and then. Oh well, maybe you needed that rest and that you know rejuvenation that time. And now you're just building up. You know things are starting to blossom, right. So yeah, that's just reminded me of that conversation and how that really fits in. Well, I see it fitting in anyways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, of course. Thank you for bringing it up.
Speaker 2:Put that in there.
Speaker 1:Because, no, no, I fully agree with that. You know, living our lives and building our practices around the seasonal, like the seasonal calendar, I guess, like there was a time for tattooing, there was a time for rest, there was a time for connecting, there was a time for going out into the world and interacting with different communities, you know, and it's it's not an all the time type type of thing like we would be led to believe. It is now yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty powerful. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time and the work that you do and you know, keep doing things the way that you need to do them and don't feel guilty about that. Thanks, we all gotta do it the way we gotta do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, if they are pissed off, fuck it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, agreed, and I just I really want to thank you, like from the bottom of my heart and like my entire soul. Thank you for seeing this in me and thank you for giving me the opportunities to pursue this, you know, because it really was a huge life changing experience for me, both receiving the tattoo but then also learning the practice of it, and it's like changed my entire life.
Speaker 2:So thank you, you're welcome and I would say in response is remember that it's the person that you are that allowed me to see that, and so don't forget that. So you know, when you're going through those difficult times, remember I am awesome, you know I am powerful, right, and it really is. It's true, You're the person that you are allowed you to pick up those gifts, right? Thank you. So don't ever, ever forget that one. Thanks, awesome. Well, thanks for being on the Transformative Marks podcast. We'll see you next time and rock on Bye.
Speaker 1:Hey everyone.
Speaker 2:Thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you were amazing, that you were loved, and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Head on over to next week's episode, where I talk to Poppy Dell, a cre-artist based out of Edmonton, alberta. In this episode, we talk about the journey to finding a unique and distinctive style as an artist, and the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.