Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Sacred Skin Journeys and Cultural Awakening with Natalia Roxas
#013 Embark on a profound exploration of Filipino tattooing with my guest, Natalia Roxas, whose journey from reluctance to becoming a hand-tapped tattoo practitioner unveils the rich tapestry of cultural identity and personal transformation. Natalia's narrative, intertwined with my own experiences as a Hungarian, Metis, and Nlaka'pamux professional tattoo artist, sheds light on the ancestral art that is much more than skin deep. Together, we navigate the teachings of our mentors, the spiritual dimensions of ancestral communication, and the responsibility of wielding traditional bone tools in our craft.
As we unfurl the mat of wisdom – a symbol of school, sacred space, and church in indigenous communities – the stories of our teachers and the traditions of the 185 ethnolinguistic groups in the Philippines come to life. This episode goes beyond tattoo marks; it’s about the connections we forge, the compassion we harbor for our diasporic ancestors, and the resonance of their love and resilience that shape us. Listeners will find solace in our shared narratives, understanding the significance of these traditions in a modern context, and the humanity that underscores our practices.
Concluding our session, we contemplate the balance between honoring our heritage and adapting to the present day. We discuss the spiritual identity that comes with embracing one's roots, the importance of integrity in our work, and the transformational power of love. It's a call to recognize your worth, to bring forth compassion, and to contribute to the global tapestry with purpose. Tune in for an evocative discussion that promises an introspective view into the world of indigenous tattooing and the indelible marks it leaves on both body and soul.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Natalia at:
Instagram @nataliarxs
https://www.nataliaroxas.com/
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
90% of the work is on you. Yeah not on, I get 10. Yeah. I'm like I get 10 because I have the skill, I have the knowledge. Yeah. I can explain. You know these markings, but for you to learn the depths, of those markings.
Speaker 3:The transformative marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers Transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Casas. I'm a Hungarian, matey and intercop look professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral into cop look skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Natalia Rojas. I am a Tagalog Kapa Pangan woman from the Philippines and I am a hand-tapped tattoo practitioner awesome.
Speaker 3:So you know what we met in 2019.
Speaker 1:I believe was it 1819.
Speaker 3:Yeah 1819 at the the Kohala Hawaii traditional tattoo festival. So I just want to ask you like how did you get into the work and what was that process for you?
Speaker 1:the process was way back in 2015. I met Monalene to. We basically met, but did not meet at that moment because we were at the dinner and I suppose, the food was too good and would? It literally ignored each other. Yeah, then, a few months later, I was organizing a Filipino food and arts festival in Chicago and because that was a world I was existing, it was in the like, primarily Filipino gastronomy. Yeah and I wanted to put an event together that it's not just about the food. Once again, I wanted to put context.
Speaker 1:I wanted to know other people and primarily having a cultural aspect to it, and I found out that Doing Filipino markings there's an aspect of food and I wanted him to do that. So I invited him to Chicago and for him to do talks and, you know, do work and From there that kind of opened up like the Midwest market or, like you know, the awareness that he can come to the Midwest for our diasporic people.
Speaker 1:Yeah and then we ended up hosting him and the times that he was coming, the rest of the apprentices was not being able to go and help out because you know they have their day jobs and all of those things. So I Offered to help and however capacity it was. So it started with stretching and then it became that Manong Lin can't keep on coming to Chicago practically in a monthly basis. So my intention was just like and then I've witnessed him Seeing doing the work and I was like no one's helping you. So at first it's like you listen in taking notes of what the protocols were, and then Stretching, and then I would ask him I'm like how else can I help? So it was the intention primarily was Not necessarily even get marked. He was the one who asked me. He goes like are you ready for yours? And the only thing you can say is yes, right, and I did. He did my markings. After that he kept on coming to Chicago, started stretching and then 28 2017, 2018, hit.
Speaker 1:I Kind of took a sabbatical from the food world. He needed someone to come travel with him to Seattle for the tothofes up in Puyallup, and Since then then it became my full time. Yeah, and I still did not have an intention to be an apprentice or whatsoever. All I think about is like this is a Community elder and leader that doesn't have support, and that's all I wanted to do was kind of give back and also realizing how much of his own family have given that sacrifice of him being a community leader but not having the support. So it's like that's all I wanted to do was to be able to help, and my goal at that point was I wanted to be an advocate to educate people about our Precolonial practice, specifically in markings.
Speaker 1:Yeah no intention of doing the work. Yeah and then it kind of became my life, so I kind of just eased into it. We had a talk of when he started calling me his student or apprentice. I was like hold up, what does that mean? Yeah and I was the hesitant person. I was like I don't want to, I don't want to tap, I don't want to do this.
Speaker 3:I want to.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm a great stretcher, I am great at doing all of these things logistics, the business side of things, that's what I'm good at. I don't have intentions of doing the work, but he was like, oh, you will, and I was like, no, I'm not. But it kind of started that way, so it's, I suppose it's very organic it was never having. You know how some people that come into this world have that specific intention. Yeah, that's the goal. That's the goal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me was like that was not the goal. Yeah, so that's how I Basically how I felt and reflected about this journey was I Reflected a lot about fate and free will, because the moment, the very first time I've tapped and held that, it kind of became like I was there but not there and At that moment, knowing that was fate, yeah but it is my free will and choose to then Heed to the ancestral guidance and be in this life, yeah.
Speaker 1:So now I always say, like fate and free will are actually like they're Interwoven together. Yeah because you can be fated to do a lot of things and be a lot of things, but it is your choice to actually follow and listen to it. So I Just leaned into it and kind of I have my metaphor, for that is I. I jumped off a cliff and I didn't know if where I'm gonna land. Yeah. I feel like I'm still falling.
Speaker 3:So what was that? You know because I, when I think about the work, especially Folks that do the tapping, you know you're learning so much while you're stretching. You know, the one time that you are, the few times that I've had opportunities to be gifted the Right to just assist, you know, just to sit and do a bit of that stretching, like you're actually learning so much when you're doing that work.
Speaker 1:Definitely you. There's a practical side of learning body dynamics, all the differences in skin.
Speaker 3:I mean.
Speaker 1:I suppose whether you use machine or any other implements to do some markings, there's the learning curve of like you get to know people's skin and the differences, nuances, and just because you have been working on the same body part over and over again, it doesn't mean they're the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah so there's that practical learning of it, but also there's the learning of how to hold space for people, especially for our people, indigenous people or people of for in my community diasporic people. How to hold space for them to process what they're feeling, yeah, how they reclaim their indigeneity or Process even that, because they have never even acknowledged their indigeneity to begin with yeah.
Speaker 1:How does that look like? How do you hold that space for those people? How? And then there's also the dynamics of the spaces that you work at. Up until before the pandemic, you know that we were traveling a lot and the thing is with that, now that the blessing of the pandemic was, we were Put in one place and set up a specific space for a specific intention, and so then that's also what I have implemented in my own practice was how to do that.
Speaker 1:So now people, I know for the longest time our people got spoiled about.
Speaker 3:You know having having us going to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but now for me. I kind of flip that to be like 90% of the time I will do the work where I'm at, and then that 10, 5, 10 percent I will travel yeah but Circumstantially yeah, when it works and yet I now notice the vast difference of it. So that's a part of it, so whether you're sitting with someone or you're Doing the work itself. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I have realized like the travel part. Yeah is Is so much more taxing. Oh yeah, for sure then Knowing your home base, and you have specific things that you specifically do to prepare for it. So, and that comes on with, like you know, the learning curve of being a student. So it just goes beyond the skin, yeah it goes beyond the physicality and Honoring your body. You really get to know the ergonomics of your body, like sitting Crisscross apple sauce for hours, holding maybe you, when I did it, it was like Like five minutes.
Speaker 3:Maybe it was five minutes, like that, was it.
Speaker 1:And then thing you learn, that you learn the ergonomics of your, your own body. Yeah, as you learn about somebody else's body, you learn about your own. Yeah you learn like specific Wasted and care for your body. Hmm, because, at the end of the day, if you're not feeling that hundred percent specifically on the physicality of it yeah. You know that's not gonna be good work. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just before we go on to, you know that transition from stretching and you know, doing all of the the logistical work to you know, tapping and picking up the tools. You know, I just wanted you to define a little bit because not everybody would be, you know, conscious of the word diasporic. So can you just kind of define that in a way that you're using it?
Speaker 1:People of the diaspora. Diasporic people are people who live in other lands or spaces that is not their own. So, for example, I am a diasporic Filipino person because I was. You know, I have routes in the islands of the archipelago of the Philippines, but I then live in the Kingdom of Hawaii but at the same time also raced in like Northern California and Chicago. Yeah so those are, like you know, unceased land of all of those people, too many to mention. Yeah, I love them.
Speaker 1:I Am grateful for those people and the land that have welcomed me and let them live there as well. So that is what it means to be diasporic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, no, just important, because not everybody's you know conscious or Aware would use that terminology. So just important to give that context right and so you know. The next question I would say is like when you think about that transition of going from you know you, I know you shared that you were had no intention of picking up the tools, but what was that transition like for you?
Speaker 1:I kicked, cried and screamed. I mean, I mean, okay, the screaming is more internal, I will not scream out my own teacher. It started, honestly, I feel like lockdown it was. We were not working and when we were, it was like very heavily like Protocol, like you know, health protocols anywhere from masks to like a goggles to the face shield. I was like it's hard to exist and see where you're going with those accoutrements on your face. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But it all started because we had so much time and for the longest time. We did not necessarily. Our school was so mobile, yeah, that none of us were really have the time to like just sit. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Open up books. Monalene has a vast library of you know resources. Yeah and on top of his actual work and Written work, that he has done and things that is still like in the in the brain bank. So to speak and for me to be able to sit there and really like read through it, read through his notes, read through, um, you know really old National Geographic Magazines, to being able to take deep dives because academic academia, edu and J store like opened up and have you let have access.
Speaker 1:Yeah if you're not affiliated with institutions, so being able to really like be the student and be the nerd in me and then having then live with my teacher, so Basically it felt like Hogwarts yeah. Like in all honesty. Yeah he heard me say this and he he was offended that he I referred to him as Dumbledore.
Speaker 1:But the thing is to have access to as I read something, then kind of process it with my own teacher. Yeah that moment was such a beautiful Thing and I feel so privileged to be able to do that and also get to know him in all facets of his humanity. Yeah and not necessarily just put him in a pedestal to be like he's the master. Blah, blah, blah. No, like yeah.
Speaker 1:I really love the fact having that opportunity. Then, on top of that, it became to be Then the intention kind of developed into Well, I want, I want to then help my teacher Make tools for him. Yeah, so you know, once again, kind of, let me lesson a little bit more of his burden by learning this skill. So that he can then use it and you know, practicing that, exploring that, I was also in deep research about bar cloth practices in the.
Speaker 1:Philippines and because if in Polynesia the the ideology is like tattooing his male bar cloth, as female. I wanted to see the similarities of like. What makes that? Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I was in in that zone as well, yeah, and being able to explore all of these things and have discussions and you know, then all of those kind of like snowballed into like little things here and there, it's snowballed to me making tools. Yeah in which, as I said, I had no intentions. I thought they were all practice, like you know practice things, and then you know test. Try it on my skin. Yeah and you know next thing, you know he comes in goes like what are you doing?
Speaker 3:I?
Speaker 1:was like I was just checking if it was sharp, like meanwhile my leg is like bleeding right there. Kind of evolved from there. So the pandemic really had given us that blessing to at least for me and Manong Lane not just to get to know each other in a very familial, deeper level, but really take the time to do the scholastic work. Yeah, because it is very important. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And even when I was traveling and stuff like that, I would always read and do something or ask him questions yeah, but when we're constantly surrounded by other people or our recipients.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's difficult to share that knowledge Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:And especially, you know that we need to, we have. You know you have your own script, sometimes when you educate people, and sometimes you're like, oh man, I gotta go say this one more time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and for me, I get the same jokes, yeah.
Speaker 4:Same jokes, same things, and sometimes I'm like I catch myself doing this.
Speaker 1:And sometimes I would mimic my own teacher's cadence and how he speaks and I was like, well, he would speak like this and I was like oh my god you're really good at that. I'm like I lived with a dude, so it was really that moment of being disassociated with the whole world not being pressured to move and for the first time for me at least, even, like you know, doing my other projects and work, it was the first time in over a decade I was in one place for longer than two weeks.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:You know, I was constantly out of my suitcase. Like you know, I had two suitcases rotating Like. One is already prepacked for the next trip, while the other was getting. You know, long, you know yeah cleaned up and stuff.
Speaker 1:So that is that transition. And then he one time you know we were working on one of our like one of our apprentices came down to visit and he passed me the tool, like he, you know, went to my case and was like here and wow Like in true teacher fashion, right yeah, it's like well, here we go again. You're being thrown in a deep end without easing into it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And at that moment, the first time, I did as much as I would resist it. It just that feeling. I was like I feel like I've done this before and then I call it sometimes like the blipping out of the moment. I was just like you know, and yeah, that was the moment that kind of clicked to me. That was like that this was a possibility, but still it was not an intention.
Speaker 1:I still did not yearn or work towards it. Yeah Out of all of the rest of my co apprentices, I felt like I was the laziest because, them is like when they see him draw or something. They're like sketch pads and all of these. And I was like meanwhile, I'm just like sit there and observe and like learn that way, yeah, instead of. You know, I didn't, honestly, I didn't do any extra steps.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just did what I was told, but the sheer amount of time, right, what I think about it, that's what I think about is the sheer amount of time that you were able to spend and observe, and you know that's the way we learn to right.
Speaker 1:And I think because a lot of my co apprentices, at least with Manong Lane, the newer wave is younger, so there's a lot of questioning, there's a lot of this and meanwhile I was like I've kind of in a way, and because of my privileges of being able to travel with Manong sit, with. Osama one sit with the Hawaiians. You observe also the students around and how they behave, so you then be like, oh, this is how I will behave.
Speaker 3:And then there's so learning you're learning as well by observing others.
Speaker 1:And also on top of it that was how I was as a child is I sat with my elders but I was just quite enlisted, so it's kind of all of those like compiling things that I didn't know. That was very much a core of an Indigenous way of learning.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time. That's what I was thinking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for me it's like once again, because coming from a, you know, like a country that has been heavily westernized and colonized and all the isms you didn't think about that as something that was an Indigenous way of learning.
Speaker 1:Like observance is one of the most powerful things and how you discern that observance. I didn't realize that, honestly, up until, like, I started practicing, that I was implementing certain things and, of course, learning from all my teachers, like you know their mistakes and you know in lessons. I didn't know I was doing that up until it was being done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're like oh yeah because I used to compare myself even with my fellow tattoo brothers that are practicing now, or my other co-apprentices with Ma Nong Lein. I was like I used to beat down myself. I was like I should have done you know the shit of what a could have is.
Speaker 1:And hence I always said I was like no, they're the ones who's gonna be the one practicing, not me, I'll be the one holding, you know, like basically giving them how to balance a cultural practice and a business, and that's where I felt like I was gonna be so valuable. But I didn't anticipate to be in this seat.
Speaker 3:Well, when I think about it you know just the way that you speak about it I just want to hold you up and you know, it sounds like to me that you know that whole time. You know that was in the plan and, like you said, you didn't know, but you know you were learning and taking all of that in. And you know, like you said, that free will is there, but I think it was set that you were supposed to pick up those tools. And you know, I hold you up in the way that you approach it and I just wanted to, you know, share that with you is. You know, that is one of the things that I observed in you, you know, when we first met is just the way that you hold yourself, in the way that you walk in the work. So I just wanted to, you know, before we continue, hold you up in that and share that with you.
Speaker 1:No, thank you very much because, once again and once you know, that was one of the main conversations we have had with Monalene during that time when we all met and we all gathered together and for me being with you, with you know, the Inuit sisters and Julia, and you know, jody Holly, sarah, that was the first time I was in a space of women and to me that was like, in a way, life-changing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But also being in this space with you and you know Tujie and you know Uncle Keon, like it was such a moment for me that, honestly, there was a time that we was just me and Monalene. We went by the remember the Loi or like the Kalo pack where we would offer the Ava. Yeah. I stood there with them. I broke down crying because it's one of those moments that I wished that all of, like you know, my co-apprentices were there to experience this and build relationships. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and thus far it is. It's, like you know, we've known each other for years, kept in touch and, like you know, try to, you know, retain the relationship that we all have had with each other. Because of that moment and it's one of those things that, as I delved into the work with Monalene, I did not realize what I was doing was a lifestyles change. Yeah. And it's to the point that whatever monetary supplements that I get that was the secondary- yeah. And this was primary. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then understanding that this is not for everybody, yeah and how much we really then try to uphold like wisdom and lessons from our ancestors to navigate this, this modern world. Yeah. And I did not like. Once again, it's like I did not realize that, yeah, Up until I ended up in this seat. Yeah. It is true. There is like a Hawaiian saying that not all knowledge is taught in one school. Yeah. And for me you know I saw everybody that I have met as a teacher. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you know when you have shared. You know the Earthline story. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, as I said, like Dion explained it to me in 10 minutes, which was a three day freaking like a 10 year story 10 minutes. I was like I'll give you the TikTok version 30 seconds. And they're like wait what? But the thing is like I still share that story. I know I hold that because you gifted me those markings and I know when there are moments of like I'm getting frustrated about something, whether it's you know, with elders or with younger ones, I always remember to fly. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was like it's funny. Sometimes I was thinking I would get frustrated and there was like literally a single fly. I'm like wow. I'm like okay, I hear you, and like understanding, even though I have never heard the like the three day version of it, yeah, but to hold those lessons because you have gifted me those markings is definitely one of the things I feel like upholds me as not just a practitioner, but as a person and how I see people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And embracing those differences and having compassion and honestly, that's one of the things that I always say. You know, as much as we have our own nuances within our own traditions and cultures yeah. But there's a greater picture and a greater thing that have woven this all together. Yeah. Because you can strip everything and look at all of our core values.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is all the same.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time, yeah, 100%, that's yeah.
Speaker 1:Crazy yeah.
Speaker 3:Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Casas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes, we've made you laugh or you've learned something new, consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on Co-Ficom. Co-fi is this incredibly creator, friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, kofi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Kofi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 3:When I think about, you know, one of the things that I thought about to explore a little bit in this conversation is because something that I'm not necessarily familiar with, because we don't have the same type of you know, when it comes up, because you talked about schools, right, all these different schools, and so that really brings to mind like this idea of lineage, and you know where, how that comes through and how that manifests in your culture and your teachings and the way that you were taught. So just interested to hear you share whatever you'd like to share. You know, when I talk about those things, just because it's not something that it's a reality for us.
Speaker 1:No, that's the thing, it's not. I mean, if we look at our ancestral ways or indigenous ways of living, how do you get taught Right? It's like you at a young age, like our elder spot, whatever gifts that you were given yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you get sent off to those people or like, whether your aunties or grandma whoever? To nurture that, but for us, that we navigate ourselves in this modern world. We don't have that and, as I said for me, it was a privilege itself to be able to live with my teacher. So in a way that was a very traditional way of learning and also being able to sit with other practitioners and also really embody the lessons that they have had or like that they implemented or I was privy to and I think for me, in all honesty, when I say school, I think it's not, I think it's not just a physical space to go to.
Speaker 1:For me. I treat it as my mat is a school. So, wherever I bring that mat, that school comes. But at the same time the sacred space comes. At the same time the church comes, so all of that is being embodied in this piece of material culture, so to speak. I always tell my students that to the world they see the power dynamic of a teacher, student. But for us, privately, here we are all teachers to each other.
Speaker 3:Because, as I learned from you, you learned from me.
Speaker 1:This is an egalitarian system. There's no, like I look at it more, in our traditions. I mean once again, there's 185 ethnolinguistic groups in the field. That's a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's important to maybe highlight as well, because a lot of people will talk about places that we're unfamiliar with and homogenize those peoples into one. So, yeah, maybe something important just to highlight let people know the place that you, your markings, come from and how vast that is and how many people are there Too many.
Speaker 1:You said it, not me, I mean there's a rhyme and reason but once again, I come from an archipelago that has 7,467 islands, 185 ethnolinguistic groups. We don't call them. For me I have an issue calling them tribes. They're not. They're separate, specific things. And out of that, 185, 45 is recognized major once so technically, when you hear other Filipinos refers to themselves as ilocano, sebuano, tagalog and so there's 45 of those like major ones, but even with that there's always the sub right.
Speaker 1:And within that, when we say ethnolinguistic groups, that comes with their own traditions, culture, cosmology, mythologies, language, but the thing is what unites it is the commonalities across the islands. Like, once again there's nuances but there's a lot of like similarities once again. So, with that being said, you know teaching and learning, and saying school I mean for me sometimes like the world is my school.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:You know, all the places and spaces that I get to have privileges to be in is a school is my school. I learn. So it's not necessarily tied down to the physicality of things. We just went out to the water and that's school. That's church.
Speaker 1:That's all of those things encompassing, and that is just like the beauty of it, and for me, being able to build relationships with people is far more important than the titles than the classifications and identifications of each of us, Because in my practice personally, as much as scholarly is important. I center humanity and compassion.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because if we do not center that, then I do not feel like I should be doing the work, once again going back to being a diasporic people, whereas assimilation is a very big thing. Specifically, like you know, insert whatever, like you know, be more white or, if you know, you akin and adapt more, or American or Canadian or whatever whatever it is that you have moved yourself or like circumstantially has moved yourself there, right?
Speaker 3:However, you got there. However, you got there.
Speaker 1:And a lot of that fessers in anger to a lot of our people. My mom didn't do this, my dad blah, blah, blah and I was like this is my answer. I was like what's in the palm of your hand? That's a super computer. Yeah there's YouTube University for free. Yeah that has like. At least I can give you a dozen, a Dozen Philippine languages that you can learn is a matter of you seeking it out and doing it. Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:Was like not once, none of us. Yeah in within our own bodies will experience. Mmm. I have an inch of experience our parents, our grandparent, whoever had come before us, yeah the tough decisions that they had to do. Yeah yeah, for sure the things that they had to go through. Yeah, the decisions. Yeah that Willingly for them to leave the place that they have known, yeah, and moved a completely different one? Yeah, we will not know that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have no idea like those were tough, tough decisions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on the flip side because of our own life experiences. They also, you know um, will not experience that. Yeah. So if you don't have compassion for those who have come before you and you have nothing but anger, Because, whether they're toxic, whether they have succumbed to certain things. Yeah at the end of the day, we know our parents or our family from a point of consciousness. Yeah, we know them this much. But they also have existed prior, yeah, and before you know, and so on and so forth. Yeah, forgive. Yeah love.
Speaker 1:Focus on how they have shown you love. I mean, okay, if you were the person that I need you to tell me I love you every day. But guess what? Your mama stayed an extra half hour to make your favorite food. Yeah. That's love. Yeah, you need to practice and hence once again going back to observance. Yeah. In Humanity yeah. I was like, out of all the circumstances they have put through, everybody has the best intentions. Yeah. But sometimes those intentions cannot be communicated in a healthy way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I use a metaphor of Thanos yeah, which is like his intentions was good. Yeah, you know how he had seen. All this is atrocities from across the universe. Is and his only solution is this yeah. Is there a better way? Yeah, yeah, but it's easy to snap. Yeah and that's the thing. Once again, it's like, if we don't have that compassion, if we don't have that humanity to see our parents, to see our elders, to see the youth as Humans, yeah with their own agency. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then how are you gonna have your relationships with your ancestors? Yeah. That's what what I always say. Yeah and People. Sometimes I'm like, at the end of the day, that is the focus of things, because everything else yeah can be found on the supercomputer. Yeah, google is yeah great lots ask the right questions. Yeah. Because how you perceive something is shaped by your life experience. Yes. I mean, we like it in Hawaii, like that festival, we spend a nice struggle time, probably about damn fucking triangles.
Speaker 3:Yeah definitely. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What does that mean? How is that shape? What? Is that all of these things, If we strip everything out yeah it's a triangle. Yeah. What makes it meaning and shapes it. It's our environment, it's our prerogative. It is our life experience. Yeah. So, technically, there is multitudes of truths. Yeah and all of them are true. Yeah but if you want the truth, yeah, it's a triangle. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when I came to that conclusion, and that's how I kind of Then approached everybody. Yeah that is your perspective. That is your truth. I respect that truth. Yeah, and. There's multitudes of it. Yeah. So, hence, why are we arguing?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah I think I really Thank you for sharing that perspective. You know about care and compassion for those who you know came before us, even though maybe there was damage and trauma that came through those relationships. But we don't understand. You know what they went through and we will never understand and so, yeah, that's an important perspective To bring forward. So thank you for sharing that. It's an important thing for us to continue to, as we move forward, not only to be gentle with the people. The reason I say that partly is because it allows us to be gentle with ourselves. Right, because when we have that care and compassion for others, it also allows us and gives us permission to have care and compassion for ourselves, because I know I'm, you know, probably my worst critic and you know all of that type of stuff. You know, imposter syndrome.
Speaker 3:All of that stuff is real. So, yeah, it's just an important thing to put out and to uphold and Allow people, give people permission to be gentle with themselves as well.
Speaker 1:And I think it's one of those moments. I mean I echo you on being Fucking like who or? And we are our worst enemies, especially coming from mixed backgrounds, especially coming from lineages that knowing that you have, I mean for me. I will speak for myself. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can name ancestors that have cost harm, yeah, and yet be part of that both worlds, yeah. So what I've then realized is like Hold up, wait a minute, let me also deep dive in their history. Yeah because then you find out that there were also indigenous before, prior to anything, prior to Christianity, prior to. Whatever? Yeah and for me, and some people have criticized me. I was like oh, you're romantic. I'm like no, I'm not yeah. I Like. For me, I always say, is like my ancestors did not survive. They lived. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I want to believe and I feel it to my bones that I will not exist in this bodily form. Hmm, if they did not know how to love. Yeah if they did not know how to have joy. Yeah even at the roughest and toughest circumstances that they had to face. Yeah, big time you know, I Know they found something to be grateful for, something to celebrate, something to Just uphold in that light and not necessarily be, just like, steeped in anger and trauma. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what I say sometimes. I'm so sick and tired of talking about generational trauma. Yeah because I then challenge what about generational love? And resilience and even that. Yeah it is like what about generational wisdom? And and I was like then why are we always calling on to the ancestors that Sit in that pain? Yeah when we have ancestors within our own bodies that we're not colonized. Yeah that were unapologetic. Yeah that stood dirt truth. That stood straight and stood and was proud of who the fuck they were.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's kind of like go to the CEO, yeah it's like skip middle management, you know, and why not pray to that and tap into that? Because everybody who have experienced that harm. For me personally, all I can do is pray for them, pray for their peace and pray for their Basically pray for their peace and hopefully that they do find that even in that realm. Yeah pray for those ancestors that were not colonized to. It's kind of like go get your kids, bro, can you fix them real quick? Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's one of those like yeah and that's why, as much as all of that is important For me, I just look at those moments in our histories. Hmm is instead of like why the fuck did that happen to us? Down with blah, blah blah. I'm like what lessons can I learn from it? Yeah and Within those lessons, how can I implement that in my practice, in my being, in myself? Yeah and how do I then communicate that? Yeah, big time. That like for me. I know it sounds fucking simple.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, it is simple.
Speaker 1:I mean as humans, making complicated, make it hella complicated, yeah, but for me is just like it's just that it's. How do I learn from it? Yeah. I mean, what's the biggest lesson there? Don't be a asshole. Yeah. Another lesson is like take what you need and find.
Speaker 3:Find what you need.
Speaker 1:Find what you need and don't like it, don't hoard it. Yeah if you have an abundance of resource, share it yeah, and. That is how our ancestors lived totally and that is how, like you know, we took what we needed yeah, and not of excess. Yeah and redistributed everything else totally and that's why, like the good chiefs, became the chiefs that they are, yeah, the paramount chiefs that they are yeah. Because that's why I joke around is like being elevated in this like practitioner level. I was like brah, I don't fucking want this.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It just means I gotta serve more. I was like brah. What's kush being like?
Speaker 3:Answer an email.
Speaker 1:I'm like stretching. I was like man.
Speaker 3:I was like didn't have to draw that straight line.
Speaker 1:Don't even get me started with drawing bro, don't even get me started oh we're even just you know, all of these things that you know. Now, being in a position that I am, I've had his conversation with Mon Olin and I've always have compassion for him, but now it's just a deeper understanding and compassion because now you just you kind of like you know you level up, but then again is like you also realize how heavy that world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how heavy that burden is it is and.
Speaker 1:It can be very lonely. Oh, totally especially for a woman, yeah, especially for me, like even it's so refreshing to be here in Aotearoa with aunties because for the first time ever Since we were in in Hawaii. I mean, you know, holly, sarah, jody and Julia are like my like. They're like big sisters. Yeah but now to have actually like aunties yeah. There's a big difference to kind of be like you know, listen and learn from their stories. They're like, I don't have that in my I don't have that in my community.
Speaker 1:Not at that level or where we are. You know what I mean, yeah sometimes my community is so heavily ridden with politics that I'm just like. I tried to just be like.
Speaker 3:Y'all do your thing. I'm here yeah it's like um.
Speaker 1:You know, I always say sometimes like not my monkey, not my circus. Yeah. Um, technically, by association it is, but you know how I choose to do things. I still have love and compassion for them, but I don't want to get myself involved. Yeah, big time. It's too much work. Yeah. I mean this is this what we do is already too much work. Then you add community politics and stuff like that. It's like no, thank you, yeah, and it's just not not my gift either.
Speaker 3:You know like. I don't have the ability to navigate some of those spaces in the way that it needs to be. So I just acknowledge that and know that there are some people that have those gifts and so ensure to hold them up in the way that they need to be held up right, and that that's the only thing, and sometimes it's so you know there.
Speaker 1:Once again it's, and when you see it Is like for me is like then you see what the roots of all of these things are. Yeah and it's one of those things like that is not my responsibility to work on that is theirs, yeah it's the same way. How Would people come to get receive work from me? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I always say like, let me get something straight first before we go on with anything. Is, 90% of the work is on you. Yeah, not on. I get 10. Yeah, I'm like I get 10 because I have the skill, I have the knowledge. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can explain. You know these markings, but for you to learn the depths, of those markings is on you. Yeah, 100%, there's no book, there's no documentary, there's no video, there's no pod, there's nothing. Yeah because that speaks of your relationships with your ancestors. I am not going to act like an emissary for your ancestors, because then that's just enabling you yeah, yeah right and plus, then I should be charging you like 10 arms and a leg. Yeah, you know, I'll go. That's a lot of work. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like you know. You know, this is like I always joke around as, like, my ancestors are demanding enough. Yeah, I don't need nobody else's you know, because there are times that we get these inspiration or disgust feelings and you know it's coming from them. Yeah because you know those fuckers on the other side don't know how to communicate properly.
Speaker 3:It's all in symbology.
Speaker 1:It's like I joke around and I was like if our ancestors learned how to text, it will be just emojis.
Speaker 4:And for you to decipher the emo. I was like it's like petroglyphs. Yeah, you have to and I was like.
Speaker 1:I was like, what does this bird mean today? Yeah, yeah, and. Then that's up to you, because that is your relationship with them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think it's an important thing to highlight because I know a lot of times, uh, you know, people try to hold us up in terms of like, uh, you know a faith healer or something like that.
Speaker 3:But for me it's like I like how you phrase that is, I have 10% and the other 90 is on you, you know, and that's what I always say, like, yeah, I'm just part of, and the when I think about that concept is the reason we call it the work Is, because that work is, yes, some of the things that I do, but the vast majority of is the work that that individual does internally, prior to what they're, prior to coming, then sitting, you know, taking the pain, going through that emotion, you know, working through what they need to work through, and then also after you know, and it continues for a lifetime of understanding what those marks are. So the work is I like how you said that it's like I get the 10% of just doing the marking, but the 90% is getting marked in that journey From hey, I need to get these marks to what do they mean for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1:Exactly because, like for me, you know, there are certain markings on my body that I've been here for years and I feel like in different lives, or like milestones for me, they unlock something else. It's like it's the same. I mean, I will go back to the gift that you have given me is like there are moments in times I was like, okay, I did not get the three-day version, but I have this deeper understanding of this or I have.
Speaker 1:I think I asked you that one time. I was like, well, why did the bear sacrifice to himself, what was? And then I was like having that inner thought. I was like, well, if you know, from what I understand, let's say in like First Nations or Native American I mean I put this in a great, lovely, blanket statement but if typically, when you see it, a bear is very much a paramount, and then understanding now that being in the position I am, I was like no shit, that fuck. I like sacrifice.
Speaker 1:Now I know what that means, and once again is like how I articulated, or like, once again, what you have shared is basically like you know this much and yet to constantly look at the markies that you have gifted me and dig on that next surface level in that moment and I was like I sat there one day and I just started crying about it because I was just like, because I was at that point, I was feeling that I was like call it an egotistical moment, call it whatever, but call it a moment of vulnerability, that is like.
Speaker 1:I've given so much and yet you don't feel the support. You don't feel like, you just don't feel being held at that moment, because it's just like once again jumped off the cliff. Normally, when you jump off the cliff, you're kind of aware to still know where you're going to go.
Speaker 1:But for me it's like you just jumped off in the cliff into a abyss and I cannot see nothing, not even an angler fish to fucking shed light, to kind of like see where I'm going. But but then you have that innate trust that it's going to be okay and knowing that, the like for me how I perceived it is like the bear had that innate trust that I can eat myself out of this room for a hot minute. Y'all are going to go figure this shit out and it will be okay. Totally.
Speaker 1:It's as simple as that. But I was like you know, once again that hit me really hard and I was, and then I reflect back to our own oral histories or like how we view specific things and living in Hawaii and being a part of that community is like having that same moment and I'm just like, once again, that was unlocked with my markings and that was like what four or five years ago? And at that point I was fixated. I'm like I don't understand why the fucking bear did it. Why can't the fly die.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's easy you know, and it's such a you know perspective and provocative. I cannot teach that to the people that receive the marks. Yeah, I can tell you what it is. I can tell you the symbology of it. I can tell you the world history that is attached to it. The mythology that is attached to it. Other than that, understanding what it means to carry it.
Speaker 3:That's you yeah.
Speaker 1:Wish I ain't doing that work, because I'm not wearing it. And how you then perceive it and you navigate your life, because I'm not you. Yeah. And how you see things is very different, like it can be different, it can be similar. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Unless I'm going to be with you 24, seven, like literally on that very I'm like that's too much. Yeah, I already get annoyed with my own self and I am within myself with 24 seven. Yeah. So it's that and like, how do you teach that to people? I asked myself that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I just say you know, for me, when I think about that question is how do you teach that? Is you just share, exactly that is that, this. You know, the rest of the work of wearing these marks is you and that will come Right. It's just all you got to say is that's that journey, that's a day or journey with them?
Speaker 1:And I think to add on to it is the embodiment. Yeah, big time. With embodiment comes integrity. Yeah. Then, without being said, it is a moment of knowing how to say no. Yeah. And what feels right and doesn't feel right, and that's a big thing, yeah.
Speaker 3:Big time.
Speaker 1:And trust. There has been a lot of things and opportunities have come my way and I was like, no, yeah, and until a lot of people would be like, well, you would have been better off financially, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, was it a stupid move? Maybe if you look at it in a money sense, yeah, that's not, and that's for me. It's like that's not my focus, though. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was like I always. I always believe that I will be provided for what I need, and that's what I pray for. That's why I strive for, that's what I work for. Yeah. If I was just doing this for the money, then it's easy to exoddify myself. Yeah. As a woman. Yeah. As a woman practitioner, yeah, as a woman who uses bone tools.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was actually just wanted to like switch back and come back around to talk about the tools, because I don't think I've chatted with anyone yet that use tap and or use the bone. So I just wanted to explore that with you a little bit and get you to talk about it Because you know, I don't know, I don't know shit about it. I know a little bit, but I don't want to.
Speaker 3:I don't feel like I can claim any of that, and so I just wanted to, uh, yeah, ask you to explore what it's like or what you're using. You know, uh, as to the comfortable comfortability that you have and the protocols that you have to share some of that knowledge, and then also, you know what it's like using those, and, um, in the end, I guess you know, coming to why you think those, that's important to use those tools, uh, because, yeah, you know it's important to have all these opinions.
Speaker 1:I would start with the last question first. Why is it important to use bone tools? Yeah. It is important because number one archaeological artifact that has been found in the you know our burial caves in the Philippines. You know they found this cute little tooth. Yeah. Obviously the handle has disintegrated. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The bone survived. Um, that was carbon dated roughly 4,000 years ago. Wow, that's a long time ago yeah. And so if we come up with a oh, I mean you know, in a intellectually, then you would know at least that the practices existed for 4,000 years. Yeah, so then why is it important? There's like I will quote Uncle Keone Nunes on this. It's like there's not a lot of things in this world that you can experience how your ancestors experienced it from thousands of years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That is why, for me, this is important to use bone tools, because if the people are asking for that reconnection with their ancestors, what is more of a ceremony that uses the same implements as our ancestors have done? Yeah. Is it difficult? Fuck yeah. Yeah. Resources itself. Thank you global warming, thank you globalization, thank you capitalism, for, you know, having these types of resources, of the bones that we use to be harder to acquire.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and what would you say, like even the you know from my understanding it's a part of that is also the colonizers insistence on what would you say legislating use of certain you know cultural items, or the harvesting of animals, birds, plants, etc. Exactly, and then also you know, I think, when I think about it, think about Heidi talking about the gathering of you know, the grasses and the sages that they need for their basketry they have to hop over fences because of you know, private privatization of land, all of that stuff impacts you know those things that we do, yeah, and so for me that was very important.
Speaker 1:It was important, like, primarily, it was important to do that to use as much as closest possible implements that has existed for thousands of years. Don't get me wrong within my own islands we also have actual metal tools, brass. Yeah. But I do not come from those lineages. So for me is like to honor the integrity of the people that I come from. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or just the knowledge that we have thus far. Yeah, they've used bone, so I'll stick to that. Yeah, it's one of those moments that, the times that when I would be working with my tools or like creating them, or the first thing I do is I mean, you know, I do my little rituals and ceremonies around it before I start, but one of the things that I can share is like the first prayer upon using and receiving, let's say that the animal bone. Well, first and foremost, you thank these animal for existing.
Speaker 1:And for it to kind of then extend its mana or its life force to do this type of work. So it's always in gratitude. It's the same with my handles that are made out of wood, primarily bamboo. No, all my handles are bamboo for a very specific reason and even that I think about all like. Basically it's like its life evolution for it to be here and whether the people or the animals that had taken care or like harmoniously lived in that, their relationships, their relationships, so that is why it's important for me.
Speaker 1:That's why I tend to just use that and I'm not shading nobody who uses metal. For me, it's like you do you Once again, I had come to a space of privilege to be taught this way, and I really value that very much. Totally.
Speaker 1:And so, without being said, I uphold the lineage of my tools in that manner. And just because it had been put to sleep in my traditions. Well, at least a nice chunk of a millennial. Yeah, I mean I wish I had a time stone to be like yo can I just be? I just want to. I'm not going to disrupt anything, I just want to observe, I was like how the heck did you all do this? What did you?
Speaker 1:harvest and, you know, one of us can. All, all of us could only wish I was like I don't want to disrupt anything, I just want I'm not even going to tell them that the I'm not even going to tell them the white people are coming. Yeah, you know, because obviously you say that then I would not exist. I'm just like, okay, it pains me to watch this, but I just want to see it. But we live in this world. So for me, those tools are not just an extension of myself, it's a, it's a way to, as I hold them and do the work, it's also a way to um transmute that knowledge and energy that comes from the other side, from the spiritual realm, into the person who's receiving it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's why, for me, using these tools, I mean, call me a purist, call me a whatever, but I would. I would rather find my ways and means to stay to using this implements as long as as much as I could Process of making them brah. There's a there's a rhyme and reason.
Speaker 1:I mean good thing I'm not working around this time because I got my nails did there was a time that I, you know, got my nails done and ended up being in the shop like freaking, sanding off a quarter of, like you know, my nails. I feel, like you know, when men in black, when they zap the finger. I feel that when I work because it's like you're sanding things and I'm like and I just rack my brain to be like I have sandpaper and I cannot make it as pretty as my. What the fuck did they?
Speaker 1:do you know there's moments of, but also there's moments when I create or where I'm in that space of creating my tools. Is you get a sliver of of how the ancestors kind of figured stuff out? Yeah. Although it's like lashing is in the bane of my existence, because it's like, I mean I'm okay with it, I'm not like you know, fancy smanchy with my lashing, but every time I do it is like I feel like I'm going to lose a finger because you know, there's the tightness of it.
Speaker 1:I had one tool that I named Bruno, because so for us, since we backhand tools are in a 90 degree or as much as 90 degrees as possible. But one time I was lashing it was not paying attention I had one that was like cocked in with like almost 45 degree angle. I was like, well, for an overhand, that's fine For a backhand. I was like I named it Bruno because I didn't want to talk about it. Yeah, and I was like, and that's because, like you know, then the lessons come in.
Speaker 1:I was like oh I, you know how I lashed it, but too much more tension pushing yeah. Once again, it's like us in the modern world, whereas I was. Like you know, we don't think about that.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, it's also interesting, as you're talking about it, the way that it's just coming through in the way that I hear it is also that in the process of harvesting, constructing, sanding, lashing, all of those things is also like a way of the way that I guess that you phrased it as putting mana into that tool, which then also influences the way that you do the work. And so the way that I would look at that is you know, you're putting that energy, that good intention, that all of that into it prior to doing the work.
Speaker 1:Way before I mean, let's go back to our grandmother's wisdom in the kitchen. Don't cook when you're upset. Don't cook when you're angry because you know, my grandma was like you'll give people tummy aches. Yeah. At first I was like that's stupid. Yeah, you know, when you're younger you'll be like you don't get it. Yeah. And then I go older, be in this practice and it's like. I don't touch my tools if I'm having a bad day. Yeah. I don't work on my tools if I'm having a bad day or whatever it is. Yeah.
Speaker 1:If there's one thing that I both you know, specifically Manolane and the multitudes of teachers that I have had in my life in doing this work one thing that has been drilled so much in my head is if you're not 100%, don't do it, not when we say 100%. 100% physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. Yeah. Because you're putting your essence, your energy there. Yeah.
Speaker 1:If I'm having a bad day I'm not tapping. I might probably just walk that person. And you know what I mean. And that goes the same with putting the tools together. So, whether I start out with specific prayers, specific rituals, before I even open that toolbox that has a dremel, I even prayed to the god damn freaking dremel. You know what I mean. It's like.
Speaker 1:It may be a tool of modernity, but at the same time, once again I say there's this slivers of how your ancestors have seen and viewed things and how they put things together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Instead of being just like I used to be, like the perfectionism of the tool. Like for me, it's like. No, for me, it's like does it work? Yeah. Does it put the ink in? Yeah. Because, as I grow as a practitioner, you can always just evolve in being better and better. It's just like when you first marked whatever, if it's machine, if it was traditionally, whatever mode that is, you will remember your at least first 10. Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And you'll be like I am so grateful for your butt for sacrificing. You know what I mean, but those are learning moments. You don't come out. Even Picasso was not Picasso or whoever. Yeah.
Speaker 1:They didn't come out just to have this masterpieces on the get. So why can't we be forgiving and compassionate about ourselves to do that? So that's how I see with my tools. That's how I see it with just the intentionality of it and, once again, as we learned the lessons from when we received our marks. There's so much than lessons still, when I lash, when I cut bone, when I cut wood, when I shape them, when you navigate these little nuances about it, looking at the bone itself because obviously no bone is the same and how you work them, and how you listen to them and how even you get the saw and you cut and you listen to the sounds of it and you know something that sounds good and you're like, oh, I don't think.
Speaker 1:It's like you didn't pray 1,000 things to be like OK, I think this is still usable, but I don't think this is going to have the longevity that I would want it. But because our resources are very much limited, we'll still use it or we'll trim it down or whatever.
Speaker 1:There's so many layers and things and that just goes through at a rapid fire as you make them. And I will quote Mono Lane just because something looks technologically simple, it doesn't mean it's not complex. And I was like no shit, sherlock, I made my own little coconut shell cup to drink Ava from. Yeah. Bruh, my fingers was about to fall off.
Speaker 3:Fall off the sandy yeah.
Speaker 1:I never knew I would get acquainted with all the different grits of sandpaper and just the nuance of it how you look at it, and I was just like this is too much. You know once again it goes back to like our ancestors did not have sandpaper. What the fuck did they do? What the fuck did they use? And, once again, it's the appreciation, then, that you have created something of this at the highest regard as possible.
Speaker 1:With as much respect I mean, at the end of the day it's just a cup but the respect from where it has come from. In Hawaiian traditions or even in the Philippines, coconut trees are called the tree of life and ali inui, or like coconut, is such a revered tree and fruit and all of that stuff, health benefit. I mean we can go on and have another three hour discussion of fucking coconuts, but not the point.
Speaker 1:But what I mean is just like how that, after our ancestor came about looking at this tree, this fruit, to come out with like things that we can still see in artifacts and stuff like that and have that longevity. And then the finesse is the finesse for me, and it's one of those things if we can all treat ourselves with like diamond-crusted Rolexes, this is that equivalent of putting that value, I mean we talk about an Hermes purse, that has the craftsmanship Bitch, I will put my tools right up against that purse.
Speaker 1:I'm like craftsmanship. You want to talk about craftsmanship? I cried. So it's all of. That is how we put value to it, and some people find other things more valuable than others, and for us I know we exist in the world that we hold a coconut cup or a woven mat as high of a luxurious reverence as any other, like modern day products, all in perspective.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I just want to appreciate you sharing all of that, because it's important to have that part of this larger conversation that we're having as indigenous skin markers and cultural practitioners, and not everybody has the insights that you have and has the teachers that you have had in the work that you do. So I just wanted to give time and opportunity for those conversations to come forward.
Speaker 1:Well, also, once again, it's like, however you do the work in, whatever implements that you have and within reason for you and within access, I always say it doesn't take away the sanctity of the practice from anybody. You can use metal tools, you can use whatever it is, because at the end of the day let's strip it back again Our ancestors had to use what they needed to use at that moment in time.
Speaker 1:So for me it's like, just because this is how I believe and how I perceive things, it doesn't mean I'm trying to preach to everybody that they should be using only that, because it's the same way for me that when I work I don't like being traditional. It's one of those things I always challenge. I was like, really does wearing specific garments or specific things or specific whatever. I was like, does it really take the sanctity and the sacredness of the ceremony? Yeah, away, away Does it.
Speaker 1:I mean, if I really want to embody or be like what my ancestors have been, then I should not be having this phone, I should not be participating, I'm not also cherry picking. But if there's something that really holds me so deeply in this practice once again, is this quote from a Tongan Tufunga that I have had the pleasure of being able to sit and call him I would want to say he's my mentor. One of his name is Soa Sulawapa Isaiah. Tua.
Speaker 1:Tua and he has this quote and I actually want to just read it verbatim, because I usually paraphrase it, but verbatim is way better because this is documented. But he says I just have that, come on, there you go, ha ha. And I hold this and this is one of the things that have held me in my darkest times in this practice. And this is no disrespect to all the teachings of my teacher, Wayne Wilkin, because I can write a whole book about the teachings. Oh, maybe that would be fun to do.
Speaker 1:The teachings of Wayne Wilkin. He'll watch this and he goes like what are you doing? But Soa Isaiah says Tatao also reminds us that we are not fully colonized. The Westerners came with their teachings and colonized us with their ways of life, but the Tatao ties our people back to our responsibilities, history, heritage and culture. As to Fungus, we can use the two worlds as a compass point in order to navigate in our lives and make a better decision that cater to the needs of our people through these changing times. Wow, as where. I want that whole phrase tattooed somewhere in my body, because I actually use this in my presentations. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because what is more unapologetic, signaling who we are in this world when we wear our markings as we then navigate this modern world through ancestral wisdom? So then I always say why do I need to subject myself to wearing whatever or presenting us something? Then I just feel like it's performative. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then for me and once again I'm not shading any other people that feel like, if that's what you're called to do, I fully, 1,000 million percent respect that, but do not criticize me on how I do my ceremonies and how I do my work, Whereas once again strip everything out.
Speaker 1:How does it take the spirituality out of it, how does it take away and I think it has been a practice of disattachment for me specifically with material culture, material things, Because I've moved too much, lost too much. And it's the same way Just because a specific item is not with me anymore, it doesn't mean that I don't feel the love that was given to me when that was gifted to me or when that item was with me and the experiences that have happened with it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's like because, at the end of the day, any natural disaster can come and take everything away. When all of those things are taken away from you, does it make you less of a person? Does it make you less of a human? And Somebody post this question to me a long time ago and I. It took me years to answer this and the question was Without any identifiers, like not your name, not who you come from, not your markings, not your job, not your bank account. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you know who you are? Who are you? How are you gonna go and present yourself? Yeah without any, without using any of those. Yeah, it took me years to fucking answer. That Took me years because we're so tied into All these identifiers. Yeah.
Speaker 1:In which they're valuable. Yeah, there's lesson to it. Let's strip them away. Who are you? Yeah, without your name. Yeah, without your job, without your bank account, without your markings. Yeah and then recently, somebody then asked me. It was like Would you still get your markings even though they're not being shown? Mmm and I was like having these is not about showing it off to people. Yeah, it's about me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know I mean right now we're in the space that is cold, not of y'all like, unless it's my fingers, not of y'all, see my market. Yeah. You know, and if I pull my sleeves up and like just curl it up, none of y'all will think I have tattoos. Yeah, it's up until, like you know, I would wear shorts or a tank top that you would see I have markings. Yeah, I was like, yeah, I was so wear them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:It's not for them. Yeah. I'm not here to freak a, parade myself out and exotify myself to be like a very marked woman and I was like I can live my life with just having one and still have the same Same perspective. Yeah, totally you know. So that, I think, is what I believe in, how I see it. It's not about as he says. It's about humanity. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's about how you treat people, how you care for people, all of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, because, at the end of the day, our practices are a spiritual practice, but it's also a healing practice. Yeah. You know, freaking a uncle Ben was never more right. Having great power comes from great responsibility, and I know in this podcast. I've been like Natalia must be a nerd. Oh, yes, I am. I would have had my higher potter references and my marvel references. And some days because it makes palatable for people. Yeah to understand where we're coming from.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, something to relate to, and uh, well, I think I would say that is Is using a contemporary storytelling methodology, you know, indigenizing it and using it because people will recognize it. Yeah, let's fly Right, that's flying the modern world.
Speaker 1:Beaming up, scotty. Sometimes I'm like, come on beaming up on the low, come on.
Speaker 3:Um, as I, you know, as I think about, uh, uh, starting to wind down this conversation, is there anything that you, you know, uh, wish that I'd asked you, or a Conversation, or a thing that you feel you need to share?
Speaker 1:Not really because I just feel like I just love, like you know, the flow of conversation of it and I think you know I'm very grateful that you have provided this space and my voice to be a part of, you know, this project and this podcast for you and I really feel like you know if, if there's always something else, there's always can be another, another time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll have another go around exactly um, but I think it's, it's establishing all of those things and for me, it's having when, when I get interviewed or when I, you know, having these spaces and moments to share that my intention is always. Just like um, once again, it's like reminding people of to be gentle with themselves forgive yourselves yeah um For me as a, as a woman in the practice. Yeah and primarily in in a, in a world that is still dominantly male. Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is. This is more than enough of that conversation to say that there are women that are doing this, that they are, there are. You know that type of um, that men like you and my teachers. That I am very grateful for because all of you have honored my voice and to be a part Of those circles.
Speaker 1:Yeah and there are times I mean you've seen that I have been a lone woman around those circles, yeah, and I am as much as like yay, you know, girl power kind of moment. But at the end of the day, if we as women don't have the allyship of men to hold us up, to encourage us, after Feels like forever ago that we've always been put in the back burner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is what I am grateful for, for this conversation for my teachers, for for you, is being able to create those spaces and to be heard and to be represented in that way. Because it is needed. Yeah, it is needed to have that, because If there's any lasting words that I'm going to go say is like whether we like it or not, all of us, each and everyone, regardless of identity and gender, we all have come from a freaking vagina all of us If none of us, if you, as a human, cannot honor that. Yeah that's where I have a problem with people.
Speaker 1:That's why sometimes I I get turned off with people that Talk ill about their mothers. Yeah, because I was just like you think, were you a spore that just sprung out of nowhere. I was like no, no matter sometimes how our mothers have become or whatever your relationships are With any of your week with your mothers, with females in your family and stuff is like. At the end of the day there is Only a fellow woman.
Speaker 1:Would understand the the work and the burdens of the burdens and the celebrations. There's so many things, yeah, so you know? No, I think we've had a fun conversation and if we were, you know, I'm like you'll end up having a fucking documentary. We keep on yapping our ass yeah you'll have like fucking a natalia. It is like for 50 hours of editing because we talk too much you talk too much, you know. I'm just grateful for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I'm honored that you took the opportunity to come and share with me and talk with me on the transformative marks podcast and Stoke, to be able to do it again in the future.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's only ruckus that can be created between all of us. Now Time to disrupt, yeah it's like it's like mr Burns.
Speaker 3:Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me Through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you. Uh, following this journey, I just want you to remember that, uh, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that, uh, you were amazing, that you were loved and that we need you here today and Going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better Through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 3:Head on over to next week's episode, where I'll be talking to Q Dubois, a moco practitioner based out of New Zealand, and in this episode, we talk about Q's journey moving from tattoo machines to hand tap tattoo tools. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my ko-fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.