Carving Echoes of The Land: The Revival of Māori Tattoo Traditions with Que Bidois

#014 Step into a world where the lines on skin tell stories of mountains and rivers, of ancestors and identity. Our esteemed guest Que Bidois guides us through the sacred art of Moko, revealing how Māori introductions are deeply rooted in the geography of Aotearoa and reflected in the unique tattoo patterns of each tribe. Que uncovers the unexpected custodians of this tradition, from gang members to prisoners, and their role in a cultural renaissance that intertwines personal significance with communal heritage. Witness the wharenui's carved narratives that have withstood time, and understand how these ancestral blueprints shape Māori identity.

Join us as we celebrate the resurgence of Māori tattooing, an art form that once faced the threat of extinction under colonial oppression. Que shares the challenges and triumphs of the younger generation's quest to reclaim this poignant aspect of their culture, embracing traditional tools and techniques over modern conveniences. This episode isn't just about ink on skin—it's a homage to the sounds, the patience, and the dedication that breathes life into Māori artistry, ensuring that these traditions resonate with future generations.

Feel the pull of the past and the push towards the future as this discussion transcends tattooing, delving into the broader implications of reviving indigenous cultural knowledge. While Que Bidois illuminates the importance of balancing the authenticity of Māori practices with the demands of a capitalist society, we are reminded of the deeper connections to our environment and the need to preserve our heritage. This episode invites you to look beyond the surface, to the wisdom of elders and the lessons embedded in ancestral stories, reaffirming the enduring spirit of Indigenous knowledge in shaping our identities.

I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work. 

You can find Que at:
Instagram @quebidois

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

And we needed props through the gang members, because they were the ones who actually kept our facial tattoo alive, the male facial tattoo alive, and they were doing that in the prisons and they were coming out in order to look fierce.

Speaker 2: 0:17

They were marking themselves with our traditional facial tattoos of the male, the Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by Dot, line by Line and Stitch by Stitch. My name is Dion Casas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intokopuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intokopuk skin marking practice over a decade ago and have helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work in the Métis area, the Métis area.

Speaker 1: 1:45

So here in Aotearoa we always, when we introduce ourselves, we introduce ourselves our mountain first, so that gives us the capability to find a space or an area in Aotearoa where you might be from the mountain straight away. And then, after our mountains, it's our oceans or our rivers, and then you make those connections of you know what ocean or river they come from. And then after that I introduced my waka. So our waka is the vessel that we arrived over to Aotearoa on from through the Pacific, and those canoes for me were Taakitimu e Matatua. And then after the canoe, we go to our iwi. Our iwi are our tribes, and from that we go to our sub-tribes, which is more like of a family family. So, for example, bidwa and our family have a sub-tribal within the tribe. And then from there we go to our Marae, which are like our community cultural hubs that we belong to and that our ancestors once lived that. So they're still around today. And then from there, our Marae, and then we introduce ourselves.

Speaker 1: 3:05

Wow that's beautiful yeah, it's a nice way of doing it, you know, situating yourself and the whole thing is not about telling each other who we are, but what it's about is about making a connection. Yeah, so we might be cousins. Yeah, because your mountain is Taranaki, for example. Yeah, which is another mountain here in Aotearoa. And once you hear that word, taranaki, you go, oh shit, we're related. Yeah, you know we're cousins, yeah, yeah, if you're from that mountain, I'm from that mountain too, yeah. And then you narrow it down and you go, oh, I'm from that river. And you go, oh, I'm from that river, yeah. And then you'll find they'll have and everyone will have one or two, yeah, and then you might be from Taranaki, but then you might, might be from Moa as well.

Speaker 1: 3:46

And then you'll go, oh, and then it's about finding those connections with each other yeah for sure, and I'm having ways of being to connect on yeah so the very yeah yeah, so the last thing that you actually say is your name. Yeah, because it's hard to make a connection just through names. Yeah, for sure, yeah, but you can make connections through um, geographical, um things. Yeah, and that that's how we think. In regards to us, as Māori, being able to connection is more important than than just um the individual.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, big time. So when I think about uh, how does, or I imagine that those uh ways of talking and introduce yourself somehow connect to the work of Moko, yeah, of marking the skin for Māori people is that? Is that a true assumption, or yeah?

Speaker 1: 4:36

definitely like um we, because we live tribal or pan tribal, um, every tribe excuse me, every tribe had their own designs, so it's sort of varied in like for us. For example, we live here in a place called Tauranga and we liken ourselves to the the ocean, or we call ourselves Tauranga, moana, tauranga, tangata, tauranga is the place next to the ocean, and Tauranga and we are the people of the ocean, yeah. So for us, our environment is surrounded with um the ocean. Fish, yeah, sharks, nets, fishing, diving um, shellfish, waves, water, you know all these things that are that are really ocean. So the patterns that we um, that we or the, the way we design our work is based on our environment. So we look at the fish, yeah, and, and, and we use those patterns to say that, hey, this person is an ocean dwelling person. Yeah, uh, we use um seafood to show that. Oh, man, this fella comes from a specific sub tribe, for example, um, our sub tribe over here in Tauranga, or Ngāti Tapu, we?

Speaker 1: 5:49

Um have a flounder, and a flounder for us is, uh, what we call a kaitiaki. Yeah, so if we walk around and we see someone walking around with a flounder, we know that that person comes from Matsupi, wow. And another example is we have um around mud snails. We call them Titiko and um we sort of um are known within our tahuna or our bay for having a lot of Titiko. So if you see Titiko in designs and patterns, which are beautiful spiral patterns too yeah, we know that that person is from within the tahuna. Wow, yeah, so we, everything's environmental for us, and and and we are a reflection of our environment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, does it make sense?

Speaker 2: 6:33

yeah, yeah, totally does. Yeah, that's cool. And also I imagine in some areas they might have similar flounders or different things, but it would be it's connected with another pattern and so you maybe would have that, that environmental aspect in another place, but when it's connected with two or three, you know exactly, you can dial it in. Is that kind of?

Speaker 1: 6:57

true, definitely, definitely, like, if you take your um, let's take your kuzzies from in the bush um use you'll see the type of patterns they use. You know, like, you know they're, they're definitely bush patterns. In regards to, you know, a lot of birds, you know you'll find a lot of birds in them. Using them in specific birds too, for specific areas. Okay, yeah, like, for example, the Kiriru, you'll sort of find that pattern based around the Tuhoe people who sit in our national park of Turuera and, um, you know, patterns like that are really um, I really connected to them because they're bush dwelling people.

Speaker 2: 7:36

Yeah, yeah so, um, just to dial it back, just because I got maybe a little bit excited and jumped in um yeah, how long have you been doing the work and kind of tell me the story of how you got into doing this work?

Speaker 1: 7:51

I've been tattooing for doi moko for over over 20 years to 24, plus the four years yeah, um, um.

Speaker 1: 8:00

For me it was, um, sort of something that was installed for me as a little kid, yeah, growing up in what we call our ancestral houses or our wharengui if you ever get the chance and you see it inside, it's hard not to be in awe of what our ancestors left behind as blueprints for us. So for a long time, the whole thing around sitting in that space and realizing that, man, these patterns are different to anything else that we have in this western construct. There's nothing. You go to school buildings, blah, blah, blah, you're in the city buildings, concrete, you know.

Speaker 1: 8:41

But then whenever I was with my grandparents sitting in this space where there was all these detailed carvings, detailed paintings, just all this real intricate work, and it was specific to the space I used to go to as a young kid, specifically with my parents, and I was brought up in that space and there was inevitable for me to sort of go in that direction, whether it be for kaido or carving or whether it be moko. But it was just lucky that I was brought up with some houttu tu cousins. We were sent away to boarding school together and, as you do, he sort of pinched the Indian ink from the art room and tested on each other, one of our cousins, stu McDonald, who's another local artist.

Speaker 1: 9:27

He left school earlier than us and he started and he brought us back in. We finished school and he brought us in and he goes. He was being taught by a guy named Rao Cooper, and Rao Cooper was taught by a guy named Paolo Saloape. So the Paolo story, as you probably heard from a lot of other artists, is a story that connects us too. So we were quite lucky that Paolo taught Rao, because Rao was one of the first moko artists in Tauranga. And then Rao taught Stu, and then Stu pulled us in and we all started at Opukod Moana Moko. Oh, wow, yeah, so this was in the right. We were just sort of leaving school. We were young, mischief to-tu fellas, so mischief to-tu, being like young people who have no boundaries.

Speaker 2: 10:20

Just going crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah just going crazy.

Speaker 1: 10:24

We knew the art form because we had the patterns, the blueprints were there for us and we had grown up drawing them.

Speaker 1: 10:33

Here in New Zealand we do this thing called kapa haka, which is performing, and as a performing, we used to draw patterns on ourselves to perform for other people.

Speaker 1: 10:43

And that was really the kickstart as young kids, drawing patterns on our faces, on our arms, wherever we could, in order to perform for other people. But when we got older, we went ah man, we could make this permanent like our ancestors, because when we grew up, the only people who were wearing that type of stuff were gang members and as soon as anyone seen you with those type of markings, straight away you were a gang member, or, if you were in a gang member, you were a mischief person who just came out of jail or something. And we needed props through the gang members because they were the ones who actually kept our facial tattoo alive, the male facial tattoo alive, and they were doing that in the prisons and they were coming out and, in order to look fierce, they were marking themselves with our traditional facial tattoos of the male, but our queer held on to it all the way through where our facial tattoo was almost lost to the night.

Speaker 2: 11:48

Yeah, when I think about that, it's cool to hear that. Well, it just sparks in my mind that the act of drawing or painting those on the face and in terms of performance also maybe paved the way for it to become permanent. Because you could see it right Like you could see oh, that looks badass right? Or you could see that ancestral face, even if it was only there for a little bit of a while, and then I could imagine that starts to make you think.

Speaker 1: 12:22

And us Māori's were really inquisitive people and we're always asking, asking, asking. We're just like Māori. If you know anything about the ancestor, he was a person who questioned everything and through his questioning he got things done, but he did it in a way that was mischief, but he got it done through the ways it means of doing it.

Speaker 2: 12:46

Just like our coyote.

Speaker 3: 12:48

Our coyote is a bit selfish, bit of a big ego.

Speaker 2: 12:52

Stumbles around here and there.

Speaker 1: 12:55

Gets up into a little bit of trouble. I think that's where our mischief, our hard caseability comes from doing things we like touching, we're ready, and if we can't touch it, we'll touch it. Yeah, but we call it being a titu.

Speaker 2: 13:16

And then also, too, it's interesting for me thinking about how you were talking about sitting in the marae, sitting there and studying those patterns, and so how those are just built into your everyday experience. Those patterns are just part of your life, whereas for us, a lot of our patterns are in the museums. So it's a totally different experience and I would say part of my inspiration for my work has been coming here Watching the work that you've been doing. It's awesome to always come back and to see that and relive it and reignite that fire for myself. Oh, it's awesome. And I also lift you up for the work that you do with your community and the stories that you hold. I was telling these guys who come over that you took us through the mount. You shared all of the different stories about the places around the area. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:27

To us, stories are important Because the stories remind us of the feats of our ancestors, but it also reminds us of our connection back to our land, back to our river, back to our mountains, and it puts us in a mindset of understanding who we are and understanding we have a place to stand Because we are the land and the land is us. And without those stories do you really belong to the land? And those stories are, I don't know, they're the, what would you call it? In a probably a Western perspective, the stories give us the right and the means to be here as Maori.

Speaker 2: 15:18

Yeah, definitely it builds that relationship. I guess what would you say keeps the relationship fresh in your mind right Of the eons of time that you've been here and connected back to this place. Yeah, that's cool. So, when you think about the practice of a moko, one thing that I found really inspiring is that you have folks that can do the work, can do moko, and that is their livelihood. For me, that's quite inspiring, right. So, yeah, just maybe talk to me about what it's like to be in a place where your ancestral marks are used as a part of making a living.

Speaker 1: 16:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got into a space, you know, to our Maori, where a lot of the people who are coming through are in that space of being able to capitalise on the art form and actually make a good life or good living from it. You know, because there's so many people who are intrigued by the art form. But it's gotten to a place now, over the past 20 years, where it's just this thing that's blowing up and it's actually become cool, you know, and that's through a lot of work from a lot of people who have driven the art form from way back in the late 80s, early 90s, that we call the Jedi's or the guys who helped bring that back to fruition for us as Maori.

Speaker 1: 16:58

But what we're finding now is these young ones coming through. They're opening up studios and they're not tattoo studios, as per say, that you'd find in any other country. They're studios based strictly on Maori markings and nothing else. And for us it's amazing that our young kids can come through and make a living from the markings that they've grown up with, day in and day out, and have a really fruitful life through their design work and through these markings that are inherently theirs and make a really good life from it, too. You travel the world, meet people such as yourself, bro, and you know, have great conversations, and the learning that comes from it is huge because what it teaches them. It teaches them who they are, teaches them where they're from, and there's a saying that we have there is that a man who knows who he is is a dangerous man. Yeah, big time.

Speaker 2: 17:56

Yeah, when I think about that it just connects back to you know, one of the part of the colonial project I think was to destroy who we were, our understanding of it, so they could take our lands right. It was all about resources. Yeah but once we, when we take on those marks and you can read where your mountain is, read where your river is, all of those things that you discuss, you know you have responsibility to those things.

Speaker 1: 18:23

And that's it to responsibility, to upholding the mana of your hapu, upholding the mana of your iwi, upholding the mana of your people is when you come down that line, there's something that's entrenched in our kids and if we don't uphold that mana then you know we'll be a culture that's forgotten.

Speaker 2: 18:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:48

You know we'll end up like our family over in Australia, where you know we treated treated like second class citizens. You know, and that's, and that only comes because of not upholding mana and mana motuhake. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:05

Yeah, I was talking with hockey and he was talking about, yeah, the gang members and lifting them up, and I thought that was, you know, an important point to acknowledge how you know those people that maybe we people look down on have a really valuable place.

Speaker 2: 19:23

You know, and I would say, you know, maybe in the same vein as Coyote, you know, doing those bringing, transforming the world, and maybe not always the best ways, but still coming to the best outcome. Right, and I would also say, like the reality, that it was the activists that started to wear those facial tattoos. I would say that, similar to our own experience in Turtle Island of, you know, the activists, the ones who are kind of okay getting that weird look right and standing up for who they are, you know, and the cool thing when I came here that first time in 2015 for Indigenous Inc in Auckland, was seeing everybody walking around, you know, just on the street. You know, just a regular everyday person wearing your guys' mark. So, you know, that was an inspiration for me to go home and go. Okay, let's start laying it down, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:24

So, when you think about the journey that you've taken through the work, the past 20 years of Moko, what's the next step for you?

Speaker 1: 20:35

That's a really, really, really good question. So our plan, like for me and my cousins, when we first started our Rōpū together, our group of moko artists together, our plan was to revitalise moko in Tauranga and we did that through educating our old people. And we had to re-educate our old people because it was an art form that had been lost and they knew nothing about it and it skipped that generation. It had been almost tidally, tidally wiped out. So we had to re-educate our own people here in our area, in our province, and we did that through going through and running what we call wānanga, or places of learning, on every single one of our ancestral marais. So we re-educated everyone inside our ancestral whare, using the ancestral whare as the example and teaching them about what our markings were about. And it was something not to be feared Because we had been so colonised for so long and we were told, and to be fearful of having these markings that they were signs of slavery, that they were signs of being a gang member. They were nothing but intimidating, you know, and we were told for so long that we had to dismiss all these western constructs that were oppressed on us and we had to tell the people that these markings were a reflection of who we were, and we had to pull that out of the ruins of colonialism in order for us to move forward as Ngāi Māori, as people from the sphenoa, and bring it so we could be noticed that we were Māori. Because the whole thing around colonisation was to oppress us not just us, but all indigenous races is to oppress you and then make you conform to society, to a western society, and that was the last thing that we want, because our last bastions of being Māori were at a point where we were about to lose our whole culture and our whole identity, and that was one thing that our generation was not going to stand for.

Speaker 1: 22:53

So it was definitely about upskilling our people and trying to learn what. To tell the truth, we were young and our old people these are our ancestors, our old people. We're teaching them about something that's from in the past. So we had to know our shit, bro. We're young man, we're like 19 years old. We're telling our ancestors about our markings from the past, where they should be telling us. So it was a bit of a reverse sort of learning, but we had to persuade them enough and persuade them enough that we knew what we were talking about, that they would get behind us and let us move on and support us 100%. It was hard to get their backing and we come across some really hard pushback from our old people because of the church, because of colonisation and those things that have oppressed us for so long and held our culture down. But we, like I said, we had to go through some shit, some serious, saying our old people saying, no, you can't do this. But we just had to take that kick in the ass and carry on.

Speaker 2: 24:10

Yeah, and I've experienced the same thing in the beginning of the work. I've been doing it since what? 2012,. So just over 10 years. Yeah, people saying that belongs in the past, we don't need that, we're done with it. But the funniest thing is is some of those folks that made those comments are now in the front of the line-up to get the face tattoos, so it's just showing that we're doing the work in the right way. When I think about it, do you think it was important that that first renaissance, that first revival, was with machine, because it's maybe a little bit you don't have as hard of a push to learn than with some of the ancestral tools and technology?

Speaker 1: 25:03

Yeah, we come through a phase with there was no tools around and there was nothing around and all we could do at the earlier stages in order for us to move forward we had to get non-Maori draw the patterns for them, get them to stencil it and then put them on people. So it was actually non-Maori in the earlier days who were actually putting on the facial, mokko and the body designs. But we were doing the designs for them and we were hang on here fuck, this isn't right, why don't we just do this ourselves? So we had no internet back when we were tattooing and stuff, but we knew how to make homemade machines you know Jail machines.

Speaker 2: 25:46

That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 25:48

We knew how to make them. We said, fuck, we should be doing these markings ourselves. And they didn't want to give us machines, these tattooers, because, fuck, we're taking money off them. They didn't want to share. Fuck, we struggled to find one proper machine. So we were for a long time we were using boob guns, what we call boob guns, the jail machines. Fuck, I got some stories, man, some of the shit we were doing in those earlier days we were lucky, we didn't make anyone really sick, hey.

Speaker 2: 26:17

But we had to do that.

Speaker 1: 26:19

And if we didn't do that, we wouldn't be where we are today, in the stages of mokko now, and so there was a time and a place for picking up the machines and learning what we had to do there, but I think it was the easiest way to put those markings on us, but I still think we should have. If I think back, I think we should have picked up our traditional instruments as well, because it seems like we've progressed so far in the world of mokko. You know, and everyone looks at us, and we're the best at the world of what we do. You know, without a doubt, but we're not the best at the world of doing these markings like our ancestors did. You know, I was talking to you before and talking about what Keone said to us in 2018, I think it was and Keone sat down while we were drinking kāve and he says Māori, you've lost your songs, you've lost your waiata. You know where's the sound of the tapping and as I was sitting in the marquee today working away, the best sound I could hear in that whole tent was the tapping of the saamons. You know, and Keone was right, we've lost that song.

Speaker 1: 27:34

We've got only a handful of people who are tapping at the moment with the nālti oroa and, I think, the, you know, the renaissance of mokko. It's thriving. Our young ones coming through are second to none and they're awesome artists and they're pushing the boundaries with the design work that they're doing and it's amazing, you know awesome level. So I think it's time for us to have you know done. We've been in the industry for a while and what I'm trying to do now is push away those tools of colonised, you know, people who colonised us, people who raped us and stole our land, and we need to go back to those tools.

Speaker 1: 28:17

That sung, you know, and that's exactly what Keone said to us. You know, here's a Hawaiian saying ah, you Māori's a dumb man. You're using these tools of people who have, you know, colonised you for so long. So we need to. You know, we've got the ability to go back to the tools and I think for us, it's just about, you know, the renaissance of the new resurgence. Yeah, the next step. And now going back to the tools.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah, and it was cool in our conversation earlier. It was a good insight for me to think about. You know, because I expressed to you. You know, for me it's like fully embracing my contemporary reality, right, using those machines and maybe just a little bit of a different understanding. But then, you know, that realization came that maybe that conversation could be one that would be had once the ancestral tools and technology and the tapping was at the same level as the electric machine, right? And then maybe it's just like oh well, this is the one that talks to me more than this one, right? But because this one's taking up so much time and energy, you don't have enough time and energy to bring the other one up to the same level.

Speaker 1: 29:31

Yeah, you know, you know what's funny about what you were just saying Keone said to us why do you need two girlfriends? You're only going to make the other one jealous.

Speaker 1: 29:40

Yeah, yeah yeah, that's what Keone said. Yeah, so it's sort of you know, we all know that you can make a bootload of money with the machine. Yeah, but why can't you do the same with the tools? Yeah, you know, and it's about having to make that. You know, maybe it's a time when we lift up the side of the tools to what we're doing with the machines and then you make that decision, eh, whether you stay with the machine or we push it to the side and we carry on with our tools. Yeah, I envy the Salmones. Eh, I really envy them, because the level of workmanship that they're doing on themselves with the tools is amazing. Yeah, and I think that's where we need to look. Not look at the Salmones, but we need to follow their lead and get to the level where they're at at the moment.

Speaker 2: 30:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:29

And I don't think it's hard for us to get there. We've just got to put in the work and I think we've just got to understand what works for us as Maori. Yeah, mm.

Speaker 2: 30:39

Yeah, because the reality is for me, when I think about it, our struggle is that we're just beginning to enliven the patterns themselves right, Coming to understand what our ancestral patterns were and are and what they mean, interpretations, all of those things. So it's like you said, started at that different level right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:04

So we're trying to get there right, yeah, yeah, yeah, but then now since you've had that and then you've used the machine to get to this next place. You know here's the next step. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of cool to you know. Just explore that with you a little bit. What other stuff do you do besides Moko?

Speaker 1: 31:23

I'm actually a lecturer a night lecturer yeah. So I dabble in a lot of contemporary Maori art type of stuff. Mm-hmm, I'm a father Mm, but I obviously live on the ocean, so I love surfing, diving and fishing bro.

Speaker 2: 31:38

Yeah, you took us out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:42

So my thing is, I'm passionate about the ocean and I do a lot of hunting too, you know, like to know where my meat comes from. We're quite lucky here in New Zealand, oaltioro, that we can go for a dive in the morning, catch some fish, get some seafood, drop that off at home, jump back in the truck, drive up the hills, shoot a pickle there and bring that back home in one day. Wow, yeah, yeah. So we're really lucky here in Oaltioro that we can live that lifestyle. Yeah, so, yeah, I'm really passionate about those things too.

Speaker 2: 32:11

Yeah, when I think about that, how do you think the ability to live off the land like you do impacts your work?

Speaker 1: 32:21

in.

Speaker 2: 32:21

Moko.

Speaker 1: 32:23

For me, it's when I'm doing these things. It gives me a time to get away from the hustle and bustle of life.

Speaker 2: 32:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:32

And it gives me a time to sit and think in my environment.

Speaker 2: 32:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:36

So when I'm sitting on my surfboard, I'm waiting for the next set to come in. I'm waiting about how's the sea moving, what's the currents doing, what's around me at this time in state when I'm up in the bush, what birds are around, what's growing on that tree at this time of the year or what's blooming?

Speaker 2: 32:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:00

Yeah, so for me it's about almost pushing a reset button and making that connection once again to the environment. Yeah, and that's the kind of my practice and understanding my surroundings or my environment in order for me to take back to what I'm designing and reflect on. Okay, can this pattern move a little bit compared to I've seen an orca today? Yeah, and okay, so let's, where does an orca sit in regards to our patterns here in Tauranga?

Speaker 2: 33:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Yeah, I caught a kahawai today. Is there anything on this kahawai that reflects who we are as a people? Yeah, I caught whiteback today in my net. You know what does this whiteback represent? In regards to the rivers and the health of our rivers? Yeah, so those being able to be in my environment definitely helps in reflecting and also is inspiration. In regards to the designs we use and do yeah, because it's not about just taking the designs from our ancestors, it's about progressing them as well, you know, because that's what they did. Yeah, they progressive designs all the time. Yeah, so it's taking what they've given us and being able to progress it through our environment today.

Speaker 2: 34:14

Yeah, adding to it. Yeah, hey there, listeners, it's Dion Casas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on Ko-Ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast.

Speaker 2: 34:56

I'm updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. Two things come up. The first thing for me is like yeah, like you said that reset of, because, of course, well, with being a lecturer, that takes time and energy and mental capacity, but then also sitting down with your local client.

Speaker 2: 35:30

Yeah, and then, yeah, so resetting that. And then the second thing is yeah, my friend talks about it as a language of the land. Yeah, yeah, right, and so, yeah, it's cool to think about it.

Speaker 1: 35:43

I had the best experience last week. Yeah, man, I was sitting in the place we call Able Tasman. It's a national park in the South South Island, the tip of the South Island. Yeah, and I took we had 20 kids that around, about ages of 14 to 18-ish, so quite young, but you know, young men and we hiked through the middle of this bush, through about a three hour hike and we come into this bay and we stayed there the night and we sort of done a lot of things.

Speaker 1: 36:13

And I woke up early in the morning because we had an earthquake, bro, and it was about 12, it was about, you know, high, past 12, I think, hitting towards one o'clock. And I got up because we were right on the beach. I went out and checked the tides to make sure there wasn't a tsunami, yeah, and so I sat there for a little while out on the deck, watched the tides, and I heard a sound that I'd never, ever heard in my life, oh, wow, and it was the sound of fuck. 10 million birds sitting in the tree, but every single one of them singing a different tune. Wow, I couldn't believe it, because, because it's a national park, like I've hunted in a lot of parks in my life and in a lot of bush, but the sound that was coming from this bush that we were sleeping in was absolutely amazing.

Speaker 1: 37:03

It was like listening to it was like listening to a symphony orchestra and they all had different types of flutes, yeah, and I was like, wow, it was an experience I've never, ever felt before. Wow, and it was one of those times where you reflect and you go man my ancestors, you know. Now I realize why my ancestors language is that of the birds, yeah, and why the songs we sing so we sing are that of the birds, because that concert that I sat in that morning and listened to it was something that I'd never, ever heard before.

Speaker 2: 37:38

Yeah, yeah, and then you think of, you think back without the interference of all the electronics and all that stuff, yeah, yeah, the way that their lives were saturated with those sounds.

Speaker 1: 37:50

Yeah, and that was amazing. Yeah, I couldn't believe it.

Speaker 2: 37:54

Yeah, that's pretty intense, though. Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:57

Oh yeah, Shit, I freaked out. It was four. It was like 4.5 on the record scale. It wasn't a huge one, but it was just one mountain over the river from where we were staying. Yeah, but all the boys were so tired. None of them felt it Didn't even wake up. Yeah, Me and my mate. We woke up. Yeah, Kill, to hear me. Yeah, and we got up and like she's yeah, yes, but it was. I don't know, might have been my ancestors waking me up and saying how do we come and listen to?

Speaker 2: 38:24

this yeah, we have a concert for you. We put it on a concert for you. I was like she's Set it up just for you. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:30

Yeah, but it was amazing yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:32

Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 1: 38:33

So you know, that's the type of things we're sort of talking about here. Yeah, yeah, you know the fact that the environment has on you know what we do as artists, you know and as people, and realizing that you know these signs left behind for us to to read, but you've got to want to be able to read them and put yourself in a position to read them.

Speaker 2: 38:53

Yeah, because if you just got your headphones on or you're, you know, always in your phone, you're not going to, you're not going to connect, you're not going to catch in.

Speaker 1: 39:03

And that's not it. It's connecting. It's connecting with the environment and being able to connect and wanting to connect.

Speaker 2: 39:08

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:09

Yeah, for sure, wanting to connect.

Speaker 2: 39:11

Taking that time.

Speaker 1: 39:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:13

And I guess it relates back to you know, in the beginning, where you had talked about building a relationship, and we can't really build relationships with things that we ignore. Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. So it's really taking that time to go and sit and listen to the symphony.

Speaker 1: 39:30

Yeah, definitely yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:32

Cool. You know, when you think about that, what was the hardest part for you. You know, as you've moved through these 20 years of Moco.

Speaker 1: 39:46

I think probably the hardest part was there were a few relationships broken. Yeah, some really close like relationships were broken because what we call there was a co-puppet driven, a Māori co-puppet driven reason to do this art form. But then a lot of our people get caught up in society and this Western construct where it becomes a capital yeah, you know, it becomes becomes about capital and not being Māori anymore. Yeah, and then finding that balance, if some will either go one way or the other and it's hard to stay in the middle. Yeah, and capitalism for me is something that can be a detriment to the art form too. Yeah, because all they're doing is the work, just to make money.

Speaker 2: 40:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:37

And then they forget about the purpose of why these were left behind for us. Yeah, you know, these patterns were left behind for us, for our people to move forward as our people. Yeah, you know, and it was. They were there to and help us understand who we are as a people and sometimes, through making money and worrying about money, we forget who we are in this life of capitalism.

Speaker 2: 41:06

Yeah, no, that's a good point, that's a yeah, that's such a good kind of conversation to have. You know, that balance between making a living but then taking it a step further, and you know, trying to get the flash car, trying to get the other thing, and then also remembering why the work is here for our people, and trying to find that balance between those two things, because neither of them is the most important, because you can't lose yourself in either way. Yeah, yeah, right, because you just yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:48

But you know, yeah, that's an interesting distinction and thing to try and find that balance between those two things.

Speaker 1: 41:56

So for me, I'm really, really lucky and this is probably a hard thing to do in one's life where I've found the balance, where my passion hasn't become a tool for me to make money, and that's why I have a job, that's why I lecture in a mainstream university teaching art is so I don't have to lose myself, lose my identity through making, through making money and pushing my this thing that I love, that was left behind our identity, all these things that we are, in order for me to just chase a Western construct again, which is a Western construct. We need it, but at the end of the day, it's something that was put on us through a Western colonialism view and it's just happened to be a way that we have to live now because of that, and I'm lucky enough that I don't have to push my art form to make money because I have something else that makes me money and I can treat that art form with the utmost respect and that it deserves.

Speaker 1: 43:08

And I'm lucky enough that I can go around and share what I know through my work and not make it about business.

Speaker 2: 43:19

Yeah, that's a good distinction as well. Maybe not a distinction, but a valuable point to bring up is that you have the ability to say no to some of the folks that maybe want the work, because you don't need that money, you don't need to pay rent because you've already taken care of it.

Speaker 1: 43:42

I'm just lucky that other than my job, they expect me to be a practitioner, so they give me the days off to be a practitioner. Wow and still pay me. So that's what I said. I'm in a lucky position where I can do that.

Speaker 2: 43:56

Yeah, but it's also maybe it speaks really highly of the way that moko was held up in the area in Hautaroa.

Speaker 1: 44:09

So you used to work at universities, eh yeah, and you get research days. So through research you get paid. So my research days is through moko. Wow, so I'm quite lucky, yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:20

That is kind of an epic situation and I would say like so all you universities out there, this thing so they expect me to do moko as a part of my job.

Speaker 1: 44:34

Yeah, yeah, wow, that's mind blowing, yeah. So, they send me to Tahiti, to all these different places, to make sure that I'm getting research done for my institute. Yeah, wow, yeah. So that's what I'll say. And I'm in a lucky situation. I'm not enough, it's lucky, but I'm in a place where they expect my practice to be informative for our institution.

Speaker 2: 44:56

Yeah, no, I don't even know what to say. It's like almost like a dream. It seems like yeah, but again, I think that also is a testament to the work that's been put in here, so that because moko is seen as such an integral part of the culture and that the university can hold it up to such a degree as to say like this is so culturally important that you know we give you time in your research as your research hours.

Speaker 1: 45:27

So they pay me to be at this yeah, one of that we're at at the moment, yeah, so they sponsor it because I'm there, yeah, and then they pay for everything for me to be there, wow, so I'm quite really lucky.

Speaker 2: 45:39

Yeah, they know they support me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and, like I said, all universities out there listening, you know, administration support, support indigenous art. Yeah, for sure it's. It's an important model to think about and to put forward and push, push forward. Yeah, yeah, just mind blowing. It's, that's awesome yeah bro, yeah, so awesome. Yeah, um, I just can't even think of a question.

Speaker 1: 46:07

But, that that comes sort of a bit of a. You know that comes with hard work though. Yeah, you know, in order to become a lecturer, you got to do the arts and do the research study. Yeah, no, get to your masters, and so on and so on, so it doesn't come, you know, freely. You've still got to work hard to get to that place where you want to be and where you can have that balance. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:28

Yeah, for sure. But the reason I say it's so mind blowing is that you know we're just in the beginning. So I guess of this work of revival that maybe the those research hours would would never be given for a practitioner to do their work, you know, and to support them in terms of the research to go those places. So it's again maybe an aspirational place for us to get in Turtle Island, you know, to have lecturers that get their research hours through doing the work.

Speaker 2: 47:05

Yeah, that's pretty cool, yeah. So, um, when you think about the tools, you know we talked a little bit about, you know, going from using the homemade jailhouse machines to getting your, you know, probably some coils, and then you know some rotaries. So how have you been going about getting into doing the tapping?

Speaker 1: 47:32

So what I've been doing is um is asking, is asking questions about the people, like hanging out with the Samoans, the lucky enough that, um, when we went to Tahiti one of the bros here and um, in Aotearoa, moko, he came with us. Yeah, and um Moko had been learning of a guy named Kok in Raratonga and Moko is at a level that is so um, so high that I think I reckon he's the number one, tapa, and probably all two at all for us at the moment. Yeah, there's a couple of some other follows out there. I need to Hemi to Piety. There's a few other people out there that are Māori, that are tapping, and For me it's about spending time with Pūroto yeah, and they've been able to have these conventions.

Speaker 1: 48:22

Spending time with the Samuans, yeah, kisala, yeah, spending time with whoever's tapping mate from Māori and Tahiti yeah, learn a lot from him. So for me, it's just about being able to be in these spaces, watch what they're doing and observe, have a bit of a stretch or just stand and observe, look at their tools. What sort of tools are they? I'm lucky.

Speaker 1: 48:45

Mate gave me a couple of tools and I looked at his tools and I thought, oh man, this can be adjusted and and moved around, yeah, and so we've had a couple of whananga with a few of the boys around here and we've changed them up to a Māori style of of of Ihi, where we can get more, more Curve, linear, you know, because that's a Māori style of of Moko, yeah, and for us it's just been a tutu, really, yeah, and it's about having heaps of good mates, yeah, that are keen to have um Be really good, goodie fix. So what we'll do is, um, we'll clear up my dining room at home and I'll ring up a couple of mates and my mates and say, hey, bro, you want to come over and get some ink.

Speaker 1: 49:34

Yeah and they'll come over thinking it's the machine, and then when they see the mat they're like, oh no, so we'll just sit in my um more dining room on the mat and we'll just See what works and what doesn't.

Speaker 2: 49:47

It's trial and error, yeah but it's hard to.

Speaker 1: 49:49

It's like I'd love to sit on the Moko, yeah, and, um, you know, love to sit there every day and stretch forward and learn what I could, yeah, but in today's, in my life, my lifestyle, I just can't. Yeah, I'm time-poor, yeah, so I've got a like in my calendar. I've got a sought-out weakens that I'm available to do that, yeah, and because I'm so time-poor, yeah, it's just got to be trial and error from here on out. Yeah, yeah, I'm lucky that a follow one of the bros, nick Nick Roberts. He's over in Amsterdam at the moment. He's learning how to tap and he's coming through and hanging out to sort of working together. Yeah, and on this journey, yeah, and if we like us I said to you before we're Right at the feels like I'm right at the beginning of using the boom gun again, yeah, and learning.

Speaker 1: 50:36

Yeah that's it we're. I'm back at the beginning yeah, what we call the core hunger, you know, and for use out there, core hunger is like our. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2: 50:45

Oh yeah. Yeah, it's all back there. So what does that feel like? You know, because your work is. You're very proficient with the machine. Yeah, yeah work is really, you know, dialed in and refined and a beautiful work. You know, you can tell that. You know how to use the machine, how to apply all those things in that beautiful way. What does it feel like to be coming back to kindergarten?

Speaker 1: 51:10

I like that. I think it's not for me. Hmm, you know, I think of Seven generations after me, you know, and where is that seventh generation gonna be because of what I'm doing now? You know, and if that's seven generation after me is, you know, my kids, kids, kids, kids, yeah, and of my, my great, great, great, great great grandson or granddaughter are Using the tools and the way they were using machines right now, and I've succeeded.

Speaker 1: 51:40

Yeah, yeah, it was worth going back to that, yeah because at least you know there was a start theory, yeah, and you can only move forward from the start.

Speaker 2: 51:51

Yeah, and I guess it's looking back for yourself, looking back to those who started. You know, started the renaissance of Moco in the beginning. So, you're. You know you had the benefit to some of that. Yeah, yeah, now you're kind of in that first kind of wave of Reviving the machine or the tools.

Speaker 1: 52:12

Yeah, yeah, tools. So if we can do it with the machine, you know, there's no reason why we can't do it with the tools. Yeah, yeah, I hope it doesn't take another 20 odd years. All the thing is, you know, when we when I think back to when we started with the machines, hmm, we were searching for the learning and we were going every place we could think of to find anything about Moco, hmm, and we've done all. We've done all that work. Now you know, yeah, you think of how long it takes for you to get a PhD. Yeah, probably it's approximately, maybe I don't know Three years degree. Yeah, maybe two, three years to get a masters, post-grad masters, and then maybe another two, three years to get a PhD. What's that? 13 years? Yeah, man, I've been researching for over 25.

Speaker 2: 52:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:58

Yeah, you know so I don't know. In the Western world, yeah, it's a means nothing, but until Mario sort of means a lot, but still doesn't make me the. You know the, yeah yeah, the best, yeah, just just just say that I've done a lot of research. Yeah, yeah, I would say that a lot of us have done a lot of research based on this in this art form.

Speaker 2: 53:19

Yeah, I would say that you know, an argument can totally be made to that. It's not just the Research of going to the museums or looking in the books or any of that stuff, it's also doing the work, right yeah, like the Understanding of why the ancestors put that pattern in that way. Yeah right, when you put that line in, you're like, ah, that's why right and or the Becoming. There there is a certain type of understanding that comes From sitting with the people.

Speaker 1: 53:57

Yeah, and that's exactly where it's at.

Speaker 1: 53:59

Yeah like before I had my masters or anything, my my teaching was on the Marae, hmm, you know it wasn't our place of sitting with the ancestors, yeah, and they might not know anything about Moko, but they'll know one specific thing and they'll just go. Oh Boy, I remember when Koroturi Te Kaniwa sitting there and he told me that blah, blah, blah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. And then they're talking about Moko, yeah, but it's something that they didn't think was important, that no one else knows about, yeah, so what we used to call them gems, we used to call them gems, yeah, and we would run a one on her and then we would go Bro, how many gems did we get this weekend? And then we'll go, yes, there goes a gem, and would grab that gem, yeah, and put it straight in now what we call our Kete Maturanga, so our basket of learning.

Speaker 1: 54:48

Oh, wow, yeah. So it was about finding the gems and all these, at all these places we could go to, yeah, we would go right into the bush, yeah, and seek out people that we knew, okay, might have sit with the Tamipua, for example, yeah, and In just anywhere we could find anything about Moko. We were there, yeah, searching, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:11

Yeah, yeah, it was cool to. When we were here, Nahan and I last time in 2020, we went to Tape Papa and they showed us the tool kit that had some of the blades and then also, on the other side, the needles, so that transition from the blade to the needle was so cool to see, right. It's just mind blowing to think about that transition and, from what I understand, there was quite a famous Moko practitioner from this area, correct? And I think you just said his name.

Speaker 1: 55:52

Oh, that was his father. Okay, tommy Poeta was his father. Yeah, and the name was the name of the river. The funny thing is I used to sit with the river all the time. So you know, we were at Wharero and there's all those little houses towards the water. He used to live in one of those houses and he was the son of the last Samurai, yeah, yeah, and he had manuscripts and manuscripts of his father's work. He was the last person, probably one of the last people to tap and he was sitting in our backyard all this time. It was funny because when Koro Te Kani died, derek and Mark Korpo and more turned up to Wharero, to where we're at at the moment.

Speaker 2: 56:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 56:39

And I was going, ah, where are they? Derek La Dali, yeah, oh, mark Korpo. And I was like, hey, how come there's one of these here? Yeah, and I thought, ah, they might have had a link to, you know, koro Te Kani. And then I realized that, oh man, this guy I was sitting down having all these, all these talks with, was the son of the great Tommy Poeta. Wow, and I was like, wow, I didn't even know this whole time. Yeah, but he was an old man, he was funny and listening to his stories he used to make me laugh. My auntie used to be his, like his cleaner and stuff.

Speaker 2: 57:11

Yeah, yeah, he would always be around the mutt, yeah, yeah, wow, that's so cool, hey, to think of those connections and the work that now you're starting to pick up. Yeah, it's almost like you know it was meant to be for you to pick up those tools.

Speaker 1: 57:28

Maybe that old fellow was giving me a bit of his, you know his moody and saying yeah, go boy. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:34

Yeah, you could totally see that. Yeah, when you think about this work, you know what's a gem that you could pass on to those who are coming.

Speaker 1: 57:45

I think a good gem for you to understand is I've got a friend who uses this word all the time is learn humbility. Humbility is understanding to be humble and have humility at the same time. Yeah, yeah, but humbility or humility. So staying humble and having humility is in keeping your feet on the ground, because it's so easy within the tattoo world to get an ego. Yeah, and I've seen it around the world and it's the one thing I dislike about tattooing it's the egos that come with that mainstream tattooing industry. Yeah, and you'll find the most humble people when you go to a convention will always be the indigenous people.

Speaker 2: 58:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:35

You know yeah, doing the work, hum, humbility, staying humble and having humility.

Speaker 2: 58:42

Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah, I would agree. And when I think about that, you know the gem that I would say, and I always say it is just be gentle with yourself, you know, because it takes time. Yeah, and a lot of us, you know, even from your own story, is a lot of people want it to happen, right now right.

Speaker 2: 59:02

But you're saying, you know, yeah, we went, we had our one on one, we had that gathering and we have those conversations and from all those conversations we only picked up a few little things that we could put in our basket. Yeah, right, and so, yeah, when? Because a lot of the people who maybe will be listening to this, you know, are from communities that have maybe a line of texts that says that they tattooed, but they don't have any designs or patterns or motifs or anything, and so these are just ways to help all of our brothers and sisters who are in that position to be able to take the time and be able to have those conversations with those elders. You know, I've had my own experiences with that, where you're doing the work on someone and they invite their family to come along, and Auntie and Uncle and whoever's there, and then you start telling stories, right, and you're like, wow, like you know, you don't even think that these all these James are just spewing out and you're going.

Speaker 3: 1:00:10

Thank you, olive Moe, thank you very much. Yeah, totally yeah, yeah, crazy.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:00:15

And so that's one. It blew my mind that your university is supporting you in that way is because, for me, it is through the work that we learn a lot of these gems right, and it's through those conversations that we have with the families and the people who come to get the work, that those gems now are starting to come forward, because I always say that, you know, if we don't have a reason to remember some of these things, we never will.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

Exactly, if we get into these positions and these places, then we have an opportunity to go. Oh yeah, I remember this one thing, you know blah, blah, blah, and then we're off to the races.

Speaker 1: 1:00:59

And it's a hard case man Like we. It took us years to find all these gems, but now, these gems that we found, they're an everyday thing now. Yeah, and they've been spoken through from all our young people that are coming through and learning Moe Co. Yeah, like it's not, it's normal. Yeah, it's been so long to get that one gem, but it's gotten to the point and it's come to fruition and it's become normality. Yeah, and that's the amazing part of it, like you hear it and you hear like I'll be in another part of the country and I'll hear that gem and I'll be like, oh, snap, snap, yeah, snap, all right, and then mine will explode. And then, man, we've come a long way. Yeah, and that's where it sort of hits me when I hear it, when I hear it somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 1:01:45

Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah, while still on TV, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:49

And I remember that day when we heard that, yeah, and we put it in our kit and now everyone's seen it. Wow, yeah, yeah. And these are words from our ancestors that were spoken in the air. Now it's been used all the time, like it's the Moe.

Speaker 2: 1:02:02

Yeah, and that's the goal. You know, that's my goal.

Speaker 1: 1:02:05

And that was our goal, bro.

Speaker 2: 1:02:06

Yeah, that was our goal.

Speaker 1: 1:02:07

We came back at the start, yeah, and we were tattooing each other with boob dots. Yeah, and we were like hey, riggs, they're computing.

Speaker 3: 1:02:19

Yeah, good old computer. Wow, don't do it, pardon me, how?

Speaker 1: 1:02:20

did that stand.

Speaker 3: 1:02:23

We couldn't even get a DNA quiz. He's computing Kjodah Jake.

Speaker 1: 1:02:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:30

One of the homies who got the word. Oh, fire up. Thanks me, vic. Yeah, man.

Speaker 2: 1:02:37

Yeah, no, but I would say that that is the. That's the goal that. You know, when people talk about it, it's just normal. You know, that's what I always say is I want to get to the point where this work and our skin marking is just part of our culture and it's not special because we're reviving it or it's a renaissance or any of that type of stuff. It's special because that's just what we do. You know, you turn 13,. You go get your, your marking. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:11

You know you're not going to get your first seed, of age or whatever milestone. You know you have a marking for that thing. Maybe you're a hunter and you get your first kill. You know that's your thing. Or maybe you're a weaver and you weave your first basket, or you harvest your first roots cedar roots you get a marking for that, right. And so these are just things that become part of our culture. As opposed to. This is something new that we're reviving. You know, I don't want to be in that part anymore.

Speaker 2: 1:03:39

I want it just to be part of what we do.

Speaker 1: 1:03:41

I think a huge thing is like um, we need to start. We need to start decolonizing our space and all of us to decolonize our minds, and it's a huge part of it hey, it's a it's. You know we've been slammed so much by colonialism and that you know we're being set and to think a way like we are Westerners and it's a thing I struggle with the most is that we have this Western construct that makes us think the way we do, and it's been forced in them and been just pushed on us so hard that we think it's the norm. We need to change the norm, yeah, and we need to re-colonize those spaces in order to recolonize the way we think, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:04:25

And I think part of that is also, um, acknowledging that reality, right, yeah. And I think it's important for us to go, because if we don't acknowledge that, uh, some of the ways that we think are colonial ways, we'll just continue on, yeah, right. And so it's time to sit down and start to think well, what are those stories, right, what are those stories that tell us what our ancestors thought were important for us to have? And so those coyote stories, right, like, those are the things that we're supposed to learn from, and how many of us know those stories? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:05:05

And sometimes a lot of those stories. Like we talk about it here, it's being able what we call kōrero munna and the kōrero munna being, uh, being able to read between the lines when those stories are told eh, mm-hmm, you know, and they're told in a specific way that it's not to think that Maui can pull up a whole island with a fish, with a fish and a hook. You know, there's stuff between the lines that you have to read in order to get the cues that our ancestors were telling us within those stories.

Speaker 3: 1:05:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but having the opportunity to hear them, think about them, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:05:41

And to be told that you got to think about them. Yeah, because that's going to help you transform this space.

Speaker 1: 1:05:47

Yeah, and that's it, eh, transforming that space.

Speaker 2: 1:05:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:05:50

Yeah, making it indigenous Mm no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 1:05:57

When you think about, you know, as we start to wind down, mostly just because my voice is shot what are some of the things or the questions, or the things that you think people should know, maybe about the work here in Aotearoa and or about the work of revival.

Speaker 1: 1:06:23

It's a long road. The road to revival is a long road, and don't think it's going to happen overnight, because we're in a generation, at the moment, where everything's instant and revival is definitely not instant. Just because you think you can bring it up on a phone or iPad or something like that, you think that's the answer. The answer is not on the internet, sorry, and the answer is out there with your old people. The answer is out there within your own environment, and it's there. You've just got to read between those lines in order to find them and they will come. They will come and they've been left there for a reason by our ancestors. Whether it just be these couple of lines on that page, the rest will be there. They're there waiting to be found, and those gems are there for everyone. You've just got to search for them.

Speaker 2: 1:07:15

How long, would you say, the revival is at now here.

Speaker 1: 1:07:21

To me. I'm still quite a relevantly young guy and I'm at the point where I can just go your young fellas, take over, because, shit, they're racing up behind us and they're just mowing us over. That's the truth, and the work that they're pushing, the boundaries they're pushing with our art form now, is amazing. So when you know that they're out, smart out, doing you in this work, then maybe your time is just a step to the side and let these young ones go. But you've got to be brave enough to say that these young ones are amazing and you've done your job. So, yeah, it's a hard road, but know when you need to pull to the side for the rest of, bolt forward and be absolutely even more amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:08:11

Yeah, and lift them up and help them yeah give them the guidance tool, but let them aim for the moon before they miss they will be amongst the stars. Awesome, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:08:24

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking the time away from this gathering to have a bit of a chat with me. I hope next time I come back through we can do another one and update and see where you're at see where you're tapping is and gather some of the gems that you've picked up as you've been tapping the homies Jimobarous, yeah, so yeah, thanks for chatting with me on the Transport of Marks podcast and I look forward to the next time.

Speaker 3: 1:09:01

I'm the man who's coming with us. I'm the man who's coming with us.

Speaker 1: 1:09:17

So I'm just thanking the bro for all these years coming over and sharing his corridor with us, because without corridor, without dialogue, we don't know what each other doing and it's whānau to decolonize ourselves, see, and live in a world that is made from that Western ideology, and harder for us to live as Indigenous people, and we need to uplift ourselves in order to be connected and support one another in this journey of self-reclamation.

Speaker 2: 1:09:52

Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me Through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you were amazing, that you were loved, and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.

Speaker 2: 1:10:35

Head on over to next week's episode, where we'll be talking to Stacy Feont, a MAT tattoo practitioner based in Regina, saskatchewan. In this episode, we talk about Stacy's journey in learning through the Earthline tattoo training residency and her journey into the revival of MAT face tattoos. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.