#020 When Annabelle DeLorme, a Cree, Métis tattoo artist, began transforming skin into a canvas for storytelling, little did she know that her intricate designs would weave together the threads of her personal identity with her varied interests. As she discusses transitioning from the curiosity of a tattoo-laden childhood to mastering the buzz of the tattoo machine, we are reminded that the path of an artist is both deeply individual and interwoven with the collective narrative of community and our life stories.
The artistry of tattooing extends far beyond the visible design; it's a dance of respect, authenticity, and collaboration. In this episode, I'm honored to share the airwaves with Annabelle, as we reflect on the delicate balance between celebrating indigenous designs and the responsibility entailed in representing cultural artwork. The conversation flows from the evolution of our craft with the aid of modern technology to curating exhibitions that honor our ancestry, creating a space where the past resonates powerfully in the present. Listeners will appreciate the vibrant depiction of indigenous tattooing not as a mere trend, but as a testament to resilience and identity.
As two artists navigating the intersecting worlds of creation and connection, Annabelle and I delve into the human aspect of our profession—how tattoos act as vessels for healing, transformation, and even confrontation of societal traumas. Through personal anecdotes and collective insights, we uncover the significance of interpersonal skills in crafting a safe space for our clients' stories to unfold. Whether it's through the needles we wield, the conventions we anticipate, or the emotional bonds we foster, our episode is an homage to the indelible impact of indigenous tattooing, celebrating the profound marks we leave on both skin and soul.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Annabelle at:
Instagram @creative.annabelle
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
#020 When Annabelle DeLorme, a Cree, Métis tattoo artist, began transforming skin into a canvas for storytelling, little did she know that her intricate designs would weave together the threads of her personal identity with her varied interests. As she discusses transitioning from the curiosity of a tattoo-laden childhood to mastering the buzz of the tattoo machine, we are reminded that the path of an artist is both deeply individual and interwoven with the collective narrative of community and our life stories.
The artistry of tattooing extends far beyond the visible design; it's a dance of respect, authenticity, and collaboration. In this episode, I'm honored to share the airwaves with Annabelle, as we reflect on the delicate balance between celebrating indigenous designs and the responsibility entailed in representing cultural artwork. The conversation flows from the evolution of our craft with the aid of modern technology to curating exhibitions that honor our ancestry, creating a space where the past resonates powerfully in the present. Listeners will appreciate the vibrant depiction of indigenous tattooing not as a mere trend, but as a testament to resilience and identity.
As two artists navigating the intersecting worlds of creation and connection, Annabelle and I delve into the human aspect of our profession—how tattoos act as vessels for healing, transformation, and even confrontation of societal traumas. Through personal anecdotes and collective insights, we uncover the significance of interpersonal skills in crafting a safe space for our clients' stories to unfold. Whether it's through the needles we wield, the conventions we anticipate, or the emotional bonds we foster, our episode is an homage to the indelible impact of indigenous tattooing, celebrating the profound marks we leave on both skin and soul.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Annabelle at:
Instagram @creative.annabelle
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
when you're causing them a lot of pain. You know, and I've had some people cry in the chair out of pain and fuck, it's not a good feeling.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. Dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikotmuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my name is Annabelle DeLorme. I am living in BC as a resident. I was born in Niagara Falls, ontario. I'm a Cree Métis woman. My family on my mom's side is born in Turtle Ford, saskatchewan. She was born in Saskatoon, but that's kind of where my Cree family is from and then Métis is just kind of from all over. That's my grandmother's side on her side. So, yeah, i't know, and I were gonna be talking about, uh, tattoos and like what that means for me as an indigenous artist. Um, I think it's really cool to open a conversation like that. Um, because, realistically hate to say it I haven't met a lot of indigenous artists before, especially people that are tattooing, and so, um, for me, so early on, early on in my career, this is really cool for me to open an experience. There's this. There's so much more that I want to get from this too. Um, and uh, I'm here to learn and uh, yeah, yeah awesome.
Speaker 2:So uh, before we get into the whole origin story of how you got into tattoos, all that stuff, what machines do you use?
Speaker 1:I use, uh, bishop rotaries and so, um, I have been interested in learning how to hand poke, but I there's so much I have to learn in avenues that I haven't explored yet, but as of right now, and I grew up using coils, cool, yeah yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just one of those nerdy tattoo questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's totally fine, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I use Dan Cuban's Sidewinder, the Mojo box. Yeah, and then what's his name? The Pneuma. The Pneuma.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about, yeah.
Speaker 2:The Pneuma, it's the I can't remember, it's the Max or something like that. Yeah, it's like the one that has 50 more power, because I'm you know throwing like oh yeah, that's crazy a little bit more power than you know most of the the machines that I've used, except for coils, right yeah, but when? You're traveling and tattooing in an airbnb coils aren't ideal, yeah fair enough I get.
Speaker 2:But yeah, now that we kind of started there, I'll just get you to tell me how you got into tattooing. What was that journey to be at the place where you're at tattooing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, my parents had tattoos and so, and I would draw myself all the time. I was really artistic growing up and, uh, when I was in high school, I had to do a, uh, job shadow project and I lived in Agassiz, which is like a small town, I think, east of Chilliwack, and so, um, yeah, I, I, there's only like one little tattoo place there and so I asked to job shadow under him and, uh, he took me in and I started my first official apprenticeship when I was 16. Yeah, did that for a couple years, um, and then I stopped because I mean, um, it was at the time when I did start, even though it wasn't incredibly long ago. Um, it was kind of pushed on me to like know that I won't be a successful tattooer because I'm a woman, and so, um, I was encouraged to explore other avenues, so I did, and so I I went to university for a couple of years, um, and I was studying social work and I hated it and I didn't want to be a social worker.
Speaker 1:I was like, wow, this sucks and uh, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot about interpersonal relationships and, um, you know skills and how to work with clients on like a different level. That really applies to my job now. So, um, I kinda when I was 19, um, I was like, wow, I have to figure out what I'm doing, cause I hate social work and I really want to tattoo. So I kind of bit the bullet and then I started again, and then I got hired at a studio and then, yeah, and I've been doing it consistently since 2021, I think since then. So, um, so like four years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, give or take it's kind of it's a little messy and like hard to track, cause I'm like, well, I did it for a couple of years when I stopped and then kind of started again.
Speaker 2:so yeah, yeah so what's the studio you're at?
Speaker 1:I'm at heart to hand tattoo in mission bc. Um, I'm one of the resident artists there. Uh, I love it so much.
Speaker 2:They're so cool, yeah yeah, it's a lot of fun there.
Speaker 1:It's a nice, nice studio yeah, it's a small like semi-private studio um up on seventh and cedar in mission. So yeah, really cool, though I really like it there awesome.
Speaker 2:So what styles of tattooing do you would you say that you specialize in, that you enjoy the stuff that you like doing?
Speaker 1:you get up and you're like, yeah, yeah yeah, honestly, I'm kind of going through like a like a identity crisis like what I like tattooing, because it's just like changed so much in the last little while. Um, but I really like like nerdy stuff. Like my favorite thing ever is like tattooing anime. Yeah, that sort of style I love doing, like florals and foliage. Um, I've been really liking uh putting like lots of really dark black into my tattoos. So I don't know like black work I want to say, but that's so like a big broad range. But um, yeah, and I'm really loving like that tribal's coming back.
Speaker 2:I think it's the coolest thing ever and, uh, I'm really enjoying kind of throwing my own mix into that with my tattoos but uh yeah, but I and there's so much more that I do, but it kind of gives you a good idea so do you just pick up anything that comes in the shop, or are you pretty booked up with the stuff that you enjoy?
Speaker 1:I, for the first time in my career, am surprisingly really booked up right now, and that has never happened before and I'm booked up with things that I really enjoy. And, yeah, I guess another part of the things that I enjoy tattooing is, um, indigenous artwork. But I don't create the artwork myself because a lot of the people here are coast salish and I'm not coast salish, and so I won't do that work because, or I won't make my own version of that, because I don't feel like I have a right to do that because I'm, you know, I don't know how to do it, and so, um, usually I'll hire a artist, um, his name's Luke Pike. I usually work through him and I tattoo a lot of his work and we kind of have like a working relationship that way, um, and uh, yeah, it's pretty neat.
Speaker 2:I really enjoy that yeah, I think that's a important uh little thread to pull on, maybe a little bit.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:You know, I think, as a working example for people who aren't connected, either as a non-Indigenous artist or as an artist working outside of their ancestral visual language. You know, which is your example of not being Coast Salish? So you're not. You know that's not who your community is, so you're not going to use that work, but you commission somebody to design it there and then, because they, I always say it's like rights, relationship and responsibility to those designs, and then now that rights, relationship and responsibility is through that interaction of supporting a local Coast Salish artist which then you can use with your client.
Speaker 2:That's a beautiful way to do that work and I would say that, you know, it's a nice example for those people who always say, oh, but I really want to get it done. I really want to, you know, honor people who always say, oh, but I really want to get it done. I really want to, you know, honor. Well, take the steps to be able to honor in a way that supports all of the indigenous people who are connected to that design oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, it's a dope way, I know I I think it's a really cool way of doing it. Um, I don't know if others do it, but I just feel like it's so uh, it's so, uh, it's such a sentimental practice and I want to be as respectful to it as I possibly can. And, uh, and even then, with me being Korean MAT, I don't know how to put like, I don't know how to make that artwork if that makes any sense and, um, I'm looking to learn under someone right now. I've had a couple of leads that's fallen through, but it's something I'm interested in. But, um, I just want to. I want to honor that practice as much as I can.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah Well, I would encourage you just to just to fucking do it. You know, when I think about some of that stuff, um, you know, uh, it's your right to do that, to explore artwork connected to your own community, your own culture. And I would also, uh, maybe put that a little bit stronger and saying that it's uh, you know, especially if you're feeling that call, it's your responsibility to do it you know. Part of that is to have more indigenous artists for people here on turtle island to embody their marks right and to find connection to it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, just pushing just a gentle.
Speaker 1:Thank you, no again, like I'm here to learn, and so I really appreciate hearing that from you. I wish that there is more that I could have learned through my community and my family. Um, my mom passed away a couple of years ago and she was where I uh, like she's my indigenous side, um, and so that was kind of cut off from me, and so I'm trying to learn through my community, um and uh, and I'm really young, so it's like you know yeah no, I think, yeah, it's just, it takes time.
Speaker 2:You know, when I think about my own practice, it was just just starting, right, it was just starting. And people look at what I'm doing now and go, holy shit, you know, like wow. And it's like well, I've been tattooing since 2009,.
Speaker 2:You know, doing really researching 2010 and 11, and then starting using the design symbols and motifs in 2012 so it's like, uh, it's been a while since I started that and so, yeah, I would just encourage you just to start looking and, you know, start studying. You know some of those design symbols and motifs that come from. You know the beadwork, the flower beadwork people look at. Uh, you know the museum. Right, we're going to be going down to the museum.
Speaker 2:So look up in the. In any of those collections, you know, are there pieces from korean metis, people like. That is the I would say, the lexicon that you can take inspiration from, because those are the ancestral designs and patterns that reach back to your people and so you can. It's like reaching hands and kind of pulling it here today for the people that you come in contact with. Number one to help you make a living. And I would say part of the cool part about doing it that way is also, you're not only making a living but you're actually enlivening the visual language of your ancestors.
Speaker 2:You know, when you think about colonization, that was part of that process to like put that away, to take it and, you know, hide it or destroy it, all of that type of stuff.
Speaker 2:So part of that work is making sure that we're visible again today. And then number two you know, uh, you know for me one of the things that I found when I because I have friends who showed me how to do uh, form line design work, so, uh, northwest coast style, but I found that I started to get what would you say like known as the form line guy, and I'm like, but I'm not from one of these communities, so it felt like, not like even though I had the relationship to it through them and their teaching. And I also felt when uh Keone uh Nunez, who is uh uh a, the Hawaiian cacao master, he says, like you know, we should all be turned on by our own cultures and when we try to take someone else's, it's like a slap in the face of our ancestors and their ancestors. Right, and so it's uh yeah, I would just encourage you to do that.
Speaker 2:You know part of that is looking at those museum collections yeah finding inspiration, holding that moccasin, holding that beaded jacket you know, there's a beautiful beaded jacket in the exhibition that you can look at to see like and you study that to see, especially because you have an artistic mind it's like oh, this is how they constructed it this is what those leaves look like, and a cool hybrid might be the more quote-unquote, traditional, but let's say some more realistic leaves, or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah so melding some of those cool things that you like to do already.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thanks for that piece of advice. No, that's a really cool perspective and yeah, no, I just really appreciate that piece and I always like having like a second set of eyes on my views and how I view things, and so, um, no, that was really cool, thank you yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to because you did say I'm here to learn, so I know I am I really am.
Speaker 1:No, I just I I love learning and, uh, I've, I just love meeting other artists too, and and again, you're probably maybe the fifth indigenous artist I've ever met, at least the one that tattoos, and so, yeah, no, I'm super open and receptive to really anything that you can give me as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, when you come over on the 28th, we'll double, triple.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I'm stoked. Yeah, that's so exciting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my friend.
Speaker 2:Julie's going to be coming over from New Zealand, wow that's incredible Natalie's coming up from Oklahoma, so there's going to be lots of different that's really cool, yeah, tattoo artists and practitioners. Um, when you think about the, what is your process for consultation and uh getting into uh your design work? Is it, like, fairly client driven? Do you have a lot of freedom to do your own stuff?
Speaker 1:you know what is that like for you I feel like, consistently, the people that I tattoo consistently, sorry are fairly understanding of um me and what I enjoy doing um, and so I'm given the privilege to explore a lot of my own creative freedom that way. Obviously, they might give me like a couple key points of what they want to see in their piece, but generally I kind of like take the wheels and roll with it. If I'm feeling a little bit uneasy, like maybe I it's kind of like singing Jesus, take the wheel.
Speaker 3:Right, oh my god.
Speaker 1:Well, sometimes, if I'm feeling, a little bit uneasy about it. I'll, uh, or I haven't worked with the client, I'll let them see it, or I'll do like a rough sketch and be like hey, like give me your thoughts, your real ideas, like tell me how it is raw, like I want to hear it. And um, I think part of tattooing, um, I've come to learn that you need a really tough skin, and so, you know, I've had to redraw, as you probably have, as any artist probably has had to redraw things here and there, and I don't mind doing that. I think it's also just like a cool learning lesson for me, and so, but if it's like a kind of complicated piece, maybe I'll sit down with them, have a consultation, get to know each other too. Like I'm sure it's really intimidating getting tattooed from someone, especially if you don't know them or you haven't been tattooed from them before.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, and I just, I really like connecting with my clients. I uh, I want to make them feel, uh, you know, safe and let them know like don't't, don't be scared of me, kind of thing. Like I'm here to work for you and with you. Um, and uh, yeah, and I think it's just a, you know, no egos, humble yourself, kind of thing, like I were every client and I were on the same level and so yeah, cool iPad, ipad yeah sometimes I hand draw things.
Speaker 1:I do it a little bit less now than I used to in 2016 or whenever it was um so but occasionally, but yeah, most mostly ipad I totally like, tried not to do the ipad yeah, it's too convenient. Yeah, now that I have.
Speaker 2:it'm like what the fuck was I thinking? Yeah Hand stenciling fucking mandalas and shit like that.
Speaker 1:Holy shit. Yeah, I don't blame you. Yeah, no, it's just too good. You can't not, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Plus that process of like what would you say like rough sketch, being able to show, although I don't show. Personally, my process is totally different.
Speaker 3:That's fair. That's totally. I respect it.
Speaker 2:But uh, I would say you know, as I've talked to more and more people, you know that process of changing is just so much easier with the iPad than it was with paper.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Hey, let's redraw this.
Speaker 3:You're like okay, Like the, like the show say give me 15 minutes and I'll have that all.
Speaker 2:No no yeah like we're rescheduling man. Yeah, exactly, it's a big piece yeah, oh yeah, big time and then also, you know when I think about that, it's not only the redrawing, it's like, uh, sometimes if, when you had to hand stencil, you'd put it on and say it didn't fit properly so you'd have to reprint and then re-hand stencil, if you had to.
Speaker 1:You know, for whatever reason, yeah, it was like fuck yeah yeah, you're totally more old school than. I am so I'm like nodding my head, I'm like yeah, yeah, even though I've come across that maybe a couple times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, just reminiscing of like yeah, some of those frustrations plus. I would just say like yeah stenciling is its own art form.
Speaker 1:I always say you know like when you even when?
Speaker 2:do you have like the s8 printer or do you do the uh thermal we do?
Speaker 1:the thermal. Yeah, yeah, um, I think one of my co-workers has the ones that just like go right through. I don don't know if they're called essay printers or is that what they are?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, so he has one of those.
Speaker 1:Those are pretty cool, but, um, I just do the thermal. It's more convenient that way. I think a little bit, so I think.
Speaker 2:I've only used it twice.
Speaker 1:A thermal printer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh really Straight from hand stenciling to the essay printer oh really yeah.
Speaker 1:I used to like travel like.
Speaker 2:Even though you they're like the small printers, regular printers, they're still like pretty hefty yeah, they're small like, but they're heavy. So when I got that I was like fuck this is love. Yeah, yeah, totally um, I guess, when you, when you think, when I reached out to you, what was that thought process?
Speaker 1:Well, I was like, is he talking to the right person? Yeah, I'm just this dinky little tattooer and wear a remission and I haven't been out there for very long either. I only just started working at hearts and hands like a year ago, little over a year ago now. So I was like, wow, like what an honor, like me really, like that's so cool. So, uh, yeah, I think that was for the, the museum part. And then you reach out about the podcast. I'm like no fucking way not me really so no, that was.
Speaker 1:That was really cool. I'm really honored and I'm really excited and to me, I'm like obviously not being self-depreciating, but like who would really want to hear my opinion. You know, like I feel like other people have so much more to say and so much more to give, especially on a podcast about indigenous tattooing and what that means, and you know, I feel a little bit intimidated. I feel like you know, I feel a little bit intimidated. I feel like you know there's only really so much that I I could give, um and uh. You know, like I, maybe there's more people that can give you more, but I'm just really honored that um, you would have me on it and I really like your perspective of just giving a variety, hearing all kinds of voices, as you explained to me when we walked in this morning, and, um, yeah, that's just that's really cool and I'm I'm really happy that you chose me to do it. I'm really happy that you have me here today.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, when I think about that, it's really that process of like, you know, we sit in a circle because every voice counts and it's really like, uh, sometimes it's not necessarily helpful to talk about those things that we all agree upon or those things that we know that we agree with that person. Well, I already have that idea in my mind, so why would I want to hear it?
Speaker 1:that's a cool perspective. I like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I want to hear as many voices. Uh, number one, so that maybe there's something that you're going to share. Uh, that I'll be like oh, I didn't think about that just because of your positionality, where you come from, how you grew up, you know the interactions that you've had. Plus I would also say it's encouragement for other folks who are coming up right.
Speaker 1:Oh, look cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally, um and for me it's also like um important to hear voices of people who you know maybe haven't been doing it as long you know. I have interviewed someone who's like a year in, like just finishing their apprenticeship. And so it's just hearing those voices of like. What's that experience like as you're coming into it, and I would also say uh, the? The other thing that I think is important to highlight is that it's, yes, it's about indigenous tattooing, but it's not only about indigenous tattooing, it's about indigenous tattoo artists, right.
Speaker 2:So you don't have to be doing ancestral design, symbols and motifs. It's just that you're an indigenous person tattooing yeah, right, yeah, yeah, you don't have to uh worry about that, I just wanted
Speaker 1:to highlight that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, make sure that, uh, you know when people think about it, because that's another thing, you know, uh, we don't have to be an indigenous artist, we don't have to be doing indigenous art.
Speaker 2:We can just be doing our art as an indigenous person right uh, part of that is, you know, because this is, this is the life we're living and, you know, our most authentic self is our current self, because that's the life that we're living. So, uh, to think about like, uh, fitting into some mold, this is not my, my deal yeah, no, I like that.
Speaker 1:That's a really cool perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, um, when you, when you looked at, I probably only seen a little bit of what the exhibition is going to be out about. What were you thinking when, when you looked at that?
Speaker 1:I wasn't. I still only really took a brief glance at it and I'm not entirely 100 sure I mean I've done show or not that I've done shows, but I've. I've been to that museum and and I've seen exhibitions and stuff there. My sister, she goes to Emily Carr and so she also throws things like that all the time. But yeah, and you saying that it's also like private invite, I'm like, wow, this is really really cool. I was kind of on the ball about going and I'm like, oh, I don't know, like I have really bad anxiety right now. I'm telling my boss, rocky, and I'm like Rocky, I don't know, like this is like a really big thing, like I feel really honored that I'm invited to something like this. And, uh, the 28th that's my mom's death anniversary and so, um, I'm like I don't know, and then it's like that really important day to me and she's like it must be a sign.
Speaker 3:You should go, and I'm like you're so real for that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, no, I'm not entirely 100% sure what you guys are going to be even showcasing there, so maybe, if you want to like, give me a little bit of a run through, if you may. I'd be really curious to hear about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good segue.
Speaker 1:Thanks for giving no problem, I'm doing my best. Yeah, of course, totally yeah um, so uh on um.
Speaker 2:It's March, right man? I know right, it's crazy year is just crazy, but March 28th we're opening up uh true, tribal contemporary expressions of ancestral tattoo practices um at the Museum of Vancouver. I've been working on it I think I pitched it 2020 and so been working on getting funding and developing the ideas since then I didn't realize that you were the one that kind of created that event. That's incredible, yeah wow, the second exhibition that I've curated on indigenous tattooing the first one was 2018.
Speaker 2:It was called Body Language and it opened at the Bill Reed Gallery here in Vancouver and it was specifically what was it called? Body Language Reawakening, cultural Tattooing of the Northwest and so primarily Northwest Coast tattooing. I was included, of course, because I'm the curator and also as like a nice contrast because, you know, interior Salish design, symbols and motifs are very different and our culture and our practices are very different. So that was the first exhibition and then I pitched this one and I guess some of the themes would be the positioning of machine tattooing in the context of indigenous tattoo revival and indigenous tattooing authenticity, where you know traditional tools and technology created with bone are kind of at the top, and then you have like hand poke, hand tap with, say, like you know, metal needles, you know. Then you come down further and further until you get to like machine tattoos and those are like, not you know, part of an indigenous tattoo or indigenous tattoo tool.
Speaker 3:I was like well, that was a hard one, A tattoo.
Speaker 1:I got it, no, I understand.
Speaker 2:Um and so for me it's like well, no when I think about that part of that is like what does that do for indigenous people who got marked with ancestral designs with machine? Well, may bring shame to them. We don't want people to feel shame when they're trying to do something to feel connected right and I look at Aotearoa, new Zealand, and the Maori revival. Most of that has been with machine right and so if you're saying that those you know using that tool is not authentic, you're then saying that those tattoos are not authentic.
Speaker 2:Right and I've actually had people write to me and say like, hey, I got this tattoo done. It's, you know, like my ancestral design, like all my family has it. And we did it, you know, traditionally or back in the day, but like is it okay that I got it done with a machine, so like legitimately, like feeling shame. Oh, shame that they were wearing that mark, and so that really started me to think well, what's going on here?
Speaker 2:You know, that observation of that interaction and so this exhibition. The artists primarily use machine, but they also use hand tools as well, so it's like kind of all the the tools that you need, and I always say it's like you just use the right tool for the job, right yeah so that's like the one of the overarching themes.
Speaker 2:And then it's also everyone's using their ancestral uh design symbols or motifs or their visual language inspired by the museum. So when you you walk in, there's eight seven-foot portraits of contemporary Indigenous people wearing their marks, so full body. And you haveatmuk, Tongan, Naga and Maori, and so it's eight artists representing each community, so globally, and I got to go visit with them in their community except for Mo.
Speaker 2:So Mo is a different example, because in his community, the Naga community in Northeastern, in his community, the naga community in northeastern I think it's northeastern india um, there's actually uh, ethnic violence, cultural and ethnic violence that like four or five hundred people have died and so he's been displaced from his community, so I was supposed to go visit him.
Speaker 2:I was like, okay, well, let's meet somewhere else. So we're going to meet somewhere else. Then the thing happened where, uh, there was a, a guy from india, from indian descent, who was assassinated here in canada I did hear about that, yeah trudeau said it was the indian government who did it and so they weren't giving canadians travel visas that's crazy, so I was like how am I gonna do this? So yeah, I kept my ticket. I think it was only like two, probably two weeks before we canceled our flights yeah, wow because we were like hoping, you know, hoping and hoping.
Speaker 2:And then it did open up, but you'd have to go and get a paper visa and then that would just take too long for us to go. So I didn't get to go see mo, but I did most of that virtually, thankfully.
Speaker 2:So that's a nice thing, that's good, yeah. And so, yeah, we're highlighting. They're called living portraits. So I asked the. You know, I put a camera on the video camera and I go look into the camera lens for two minutes as if it's a portrait, so like to challenge this idea of what the portrait is. And then we put a stethoscope on their heart and so you can hear their heartbeat as they're looking into the camera and then you hear the ambient sound of wherever we are. So with julia was on the beach, you know, with me it was all the squirrels in the background.
Speaker 1:You can hear them yeah and so it's yeah, just uh, uh.
Speaker 2:What would you say? Because I think a lot of times people uh forget that we're human beings. You know, when you're like, oh, tattoo artist, screwed up on that one line, when there's like 800 lines yeah, one one line got has a little wobble or whatever, yeah. It's like people forget, right. And then also, I would say people also forget, especially when it comes to social media, that their comments and bullshit it's like no, that's a real person that you're talking to. It's feelings, thoughts, emotions, all of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally how do we make the artist real.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right Like a human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally how do we make the artist real. Yeah, right, like a human, yeah, um. And then in in the middle of all those eight portraits, there is an ancestral object from each community. So mine's a basket, there's a jacket, a beaded jacket, a tayaha which is a maru weapon, and yeah, as you go around. And then another section which is kind of cool. I Like when I look at museum or art gallery exhibitions, it's like you look at the tattoo, I'd say it's like in, it's like the artifact of the experience, right, because the reality of getting a tattoo is partly about the pain, it's partly about the blood.
Speaker 2:It's partly about like the struggle you know you think of like fuck my palm was a struggle, I can tell you that I believe it, oh yeah yeah, but anywhere you're getting marked, it's a struggle and I'm like, well, how do we share the journey of the mark?
Speaker 2:And so I got you know the big drapes, so like the dental babs or the drapes that you put on a bed and say you're doing a back piece, that person rolls and then they leave an imprint on that dental bib, because most of them are that blue material yes, yeah and so I'm calling them blood paintings cool and so it actually shows like the sweat, you know, the blood, the plasma, the ripped drape from the person like holding on to it, and so it's like yeah, trying to answer this question how do we show the journey of the mark?
Speaker 2:because I don't I think the mark is number one. The whole journey of going like okay, I want to get tattooed, what do I want to get tattooed? This is what I want to get tattooed. Uh, if you're thinking like connected to your culture, you know that journey of finding out who you are, your identity, all that stuff and wanting to live in it, and so, yeah, it's then, it's the journey of getting the tattoo of like bleeding and crying and laughing and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then. So how do you look at it? And then a lot of times those are thrown away, right, of course, because of blood-borne pathogens and stuff, but you leave it long enough, it's all going to be dead. So now it's inert. One time it could have been a pathogenogen, but now it's been sitting around long enough that it's not a big deal. I know people will be like all up and like oh, that's so gross or whatever.
Speaker 1:I think it's kind of cool, though no, I think I especially the way that you explained it about like it's a physical representation of the pain and the effort that you went through to get the tattoo. I'm like, wow, like that's just's. That's a really interesting and cool perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's really neat. My friend, uh, nikki, she, we're doing a sleeve. The manifestation of that idea came from Nikki. We were doing a floral sleeve and we'd outline a flower and then she'd stick it on the drape. She'd be like blood stamp. I'm like like, oh, you're such a creep you know, like it's like the awesomest thing. And then, like that started me down this journey of like, considering, you know, like even though I was like that's so weird.
Speaker 2:And then, um, and then going from there to like, oh, what can that? You know. And then, as I've been doing the body suits, you know having seeing that big blood stain and seeing those, and then you know somewhere else there's a stamp right of, like what we just did. So it's like the squares or the triangles or whatever it's like. Oh, and then?
Speaker 2:seeing the beauty of it as well, and understanding that journey and I'm like, okay, that's, that's what we got to do yeah, we bring it up and then there's um another section uh, augmented reality piece. So each artist was commissioned to design a artwork and then it was animated.
Speaker 2:So you can scan it with your phone with a qr code, and then it pops out and animates wow, so it like lives in the space, so you could like put your hand in between and kind of like manipulate the thing yeah, that's so cool in your screen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah um, uh, what else did we do? And the last piece is called the ancestors wall. So this idea that kione again kione nunez says that, uh, through your hands, your ancestors live, um. And l frank says um, you know, it's like reaching hands across time and holding your hand with your long past, aunties, grandma, great grandma, and so it's like that ancestral mark of holding hands. And so it's like a piece that is animated and projected onto the wall. And as each being comes, the artists have been commissioned to design a tattoo to bring them to life from the darkness. Yeah, a project, a projection. So, yeah, yeah, it's like, uh, yeah, it's a combination of a lot of things. And when I think about that's what I was going to say when I think about the, the large portraits which are seven feet tall when I went, to the.
Speaker 2:Louvre and the National Gallery in London, I was like looking at all these huge paintings of like European folks, like monumental artworks and I'm like where are monumental artworks? Where are our uh artworks that celebrate who we are and show who we are and so that was like kind of the inspiration for making them so big yeah so that when you walk in there you're like dang, yeah, you know that feeling so that's kind of a I guess an overview of the exhibition okay of like yeah no, that's, that's so.
Speaker 1:That's so neat. I'm really looking forward to it. Um and uh, no, I, I. That's just really cool.
Speaker 2:I'm really looking forward to it yeah, awesome um, yeah, I was talking for a while there. No, it's okay. I totally I know.
Speaker 1:I'm just happy to listen like I'm having a great time. I feel like I'm learning so much. I really like the the idea of taking inspiration from those larger paintings and then putting it in that work. I love hearing people's art processes and processes, processes.
Speaker 3:Processes.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's a word, we'll go with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1:And what they're able to take and borrow from what we see in our life. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to, uh, what you've put together. That sounds really cool and that's incredible that you're able to do something like that, and this is your second, second exhibition that you're throwing. Yeah, that's really cool. Do you plan on doing more in the future?
Speaker 2:hey there, listeners, it's dion kazis, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. Oh, yes, there'll be. So I'm going to be going up to back, up to the interior of BC to do what's called the Inficab Blackwork Roundup.
Speaker 2:So each person that's been part of my project of developing this contemporary Inficab look tattoo style uh, I'm going to ask them. You know, I'm going to do a final interview with them, ask them what's that process been like, receiving that mark and then also living with it? But I'm also going to ask them because you know I've had a photographer and a videographer in every single session, so I'm going to put you know a photo, basically a photo essay, of that person's journey of getting that mark, a large portrait again of the final tattoo in that person. And I'm going to ask them, if you had an artistic response to the project, what would that be? And that question isn't can you manifest it? Do you have the skills to create it? The question is is, if you think about it, what would be an artistic response to that that would embody your feeling and your thoughts about getting that tattoo?
Speaker 2:And so one example is, um, billie Jean, uh, gabriel's a seal, um, awesome photographer, one of the photographers who was part of the project. Also, uh, the photographer who came with me to Tulsa, oklahoma, and also to Edmonton to take the photo, the large portraits of Natalie and Tristan Jenny's clients for the exhibition. But, billie Jean, you know I asked her to be part of the project as a photographer. You know, I asked her to be part of the project as a photographer and I was putting up like concept ideas and she took the concept idea because she's a photographer and photoshopped it on a statue.
Speaker 2:There's this statue that was really pivotal in the Me Too movement and this idea of like taking power back, and she put the tattooimposed it on that statue yeah and she was like this is I want this tattoo. Are you cool like, can I apply to get it as part of the project? And this is what it's about is me taking my power back, like as a woman, taking my, uh, embodying that power? I was like dang so that's really what, yeah, started me to think about that yeah right.
Speaker 2:And so when I ask uh, I know Billie Jean has been like, well, maybe she wants to make a statue so somehow take that and create it into a statue. Of course I don't have the skills, she doesn't have the skills, so we'd commission somebody to work with her to bring that statue to life and then that would become part of the exhibition, with their portrait and all the tattoo.
Speaker 2:And I was working with allison yesterday and I asked her and she's like uh, I want to create a piece of music that talks about how I feel wearing that tattoo.
Speaker 3:I was like dang.
Speaker 1:That's incredible, that is crazy yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, she's like I'm not a musician, I don't know how, Because I said, you know it's not. The question isn't can you manage like, can you build it, Can you create it, Can you imagine it? It? And then we'll find a way to bring that into reality yeah, it's part of this exhibition so I'm like well, we're gonna have to hire a composer to work with her to develop this piece of music that tells the story that she wants to tell and that'll go along with her piece that that's a lot.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. That's really cool though.
Speaker 2:So that is the next exhibition that I'll be working on.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, wow, and do you do this all yourself?
Speaker 2:No, I work with different organizations. I collaborated with the Iota Institute, who I work with as a project manager, and co-curated this exhibition with Mireille Bourgeois I think that's how you say her last name.
Speaker 1:I can always say it Something like that yeah, A second pronunciation right.
Speaker 2:But yeah, mireille worked with me as co-curator, you know doing like some of the harder stuff. You know a lot of it is my concepts and my ideas. Mireille works in bio art, so that's really kind of where the blood paintings came from it's like this idea of like how do we also bring the biology of the you know the project together, because that it we're biological beings?
Speaker 2:right that's also why I wanted the large portraits, because I think tattoos get disembodied right and so all you see is like a picture of an arm, say, if it's just the forearm, all you see is the arm. You don't see the person who's wearing it yeah right and so people forget, they think it's art. But when you're saying to somebody online oh, this, that and the other thing is wrong, it's like, well, it's on someone's fucking body. What gives you a right to say shit about someone's body?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm really happy that you brought some light to that and then spoke about it Because I mean, obviously it's something that we say to each other as tattooers, but trying to explain that to my friend, it's like I hear a different perspective of like well, no, it's permanent. Like it should. It shouldn't be that way and while you're, you're taking away, you're negating what I'm trying to communicate. It's that we're, we're people and you know, sometimes things happen and I feel like there's so much beauty in having, um, a custom art piece done by a real human. Um, I don't know if this is like kind of off topic a little bit, but like, have you seen? There's these. I don't know if it's like true, maybe it's bullshit, I don't know, um, but we'll roll with it. I don't know, maybe I think it is, honestly I think it is, but they have these machines that are coming out now and it's the stupidest fucking thing. Stick your arm in this thing and then this machine like tattoos you and it's just like one.
Speaker 3:I'm scared I'm scared of my job like what is this becoming?
Speaker 1:this is so bizarre and uh, and I don't know like I just I hate that you know, I, I, really I value every single piece of art that I have on my body, and even the really shitty ones that I did when I was starting out tattooing. You know like I can recognize, like it's just like it's a human. That did that and I I like, um, almost like the struggle in the process a little bit so yeah, I think it really.
Speaker 2:Uh, when I think about that, it really relates back to the blood paintings, right Cause it's not just. That's why I say it's about the mark. It's not necessary when I talk about it. It's a mark and not a tattoo like the tattoo is like the end product so if all you want is a tattoo, yeah, go ahead and do that.
Speaker 2:But we all know people, including ourselves, who have some, uh, substandard tattoos and in terms of like the professional standards that people hold up and target for. And it's not even about, like, we love those tattoos and that's not about the end product. It's about the experience that we had. It was about the person that we were with. It's about the thing that we were trying to say. It was about the thing that we were with. It's about the thing that we were trying to say. It was about the thing that we were trying to work through. It was about all of those things that actually have nothing to do with the end product. Right, it has to do with that experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, like there's so many stories of people having the most beautiful, perfect tattoos, but the tattoo artist was a fucking asshole.
Speaker 1:And I've heard that so many times. I've heard it so many times, and that's another thing that I really value, kind of bringing the conversation back to the beginning of it, of like what my process is during, like consultation and working with my people, I think, honestly, in my experience, like I value, um, my experience almost a little bit more than I do my tattoos, and I'm not saying that's for everyone, but I would like to think that that's really important to them. And so, getting to know them and making them feel comfortable on, you know, like not so personal level that it I got to like maintain a little bit of profession there, but you know, like making them comfortable and um, giving them like a good experience, I think it's really, really important.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, it's pivotal, oh, big time. Yeah, yeah, uh, who was saying that? Somebody was like uh, it wasn't even about the tattoo, I can't remember, but they're like it was because they were so fucking fun Like I just went back just because they were a fun person you know and you love that, because you look at that tattoo and you're just like, ah, you remember that feeling and so I think, it's less in a lot of cases.
Speaker 2:It's less about the tattoo, the mark, like the, the artifact of that experience. It's about the way that you feel when you leave with that mark right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, I totally get that and I remember every single tattoo that I have. I remember the experience of getting it done. Not that I've been tattooed for very long I started getting tattoos when I was 18, but I've got plenty of them and I remember all of them and for someone who has a really bad memory like, that means a lot to me.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's just embedded in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is so and it's really intimidating to think that some people might think of me in that way. When I'm tattooing them. These I wouldn't say strangers, cause I get to know their lives and stuff, but these people that I don't have a personal relationship with, they might look at their arm or whatever and think of an experience that they had with me and to me. I can't really phantom or fathom um being perceived in that way, so it's like I almost get hot in the face, like thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I'm like oh wow, and that's probably gonna stick with them for life. Yeah and it's, yeah, it's intense yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's intense, yeah, it's powerful too right. Very it helps when I think about, you know, uh, the experiences that people have and how important the experience is, it helps me to realize the responsibility I have.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, totally Creating that experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and sorry I was just. I was going. I was gonna say too look, before we like track off a little bit further about the blood paintings and like that sort of thing, what's your opinion on when people go under um anesthesia and then get like big, huge tattoos I don't know if you are familiar with?
Speaker 2:that, or if you've heard of it. So, and I would say it's the same as like the um, you know, putting your arm in and the robot giving you the tattoo, is that you never had that experience, right? But I would also say you know what, if people, if all people want is the tattoo, then go let the robot tattoo you. If all you want is the end product, the artifact of that experience going under anesthesia.
Speaker 2:Go for it if you have the money and that's what you want to do, I'm really all about letting people do whatever the fuck they want, as long as you're not hurting anyone right, so kind of like a libertarian, in that way of like go do you, I'll do me yeah and it's all cool right and I don't think that.
Speaker 2:I think the reality, when we think about why people go to the artist over and over and again and again. Sometimes it's not even about the tattoo, it's just that experience, and so I don't think our jobs would ever be at risk, because it actually is about the human experience, right, and I also think that especially, in a world that is so electronic, that is so mediated by technology, the fact that some people the only social interaction they get is when they come to visit us that's true, actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and so it's like.
Speaker 2:That is a experience that you can't replace. So, yeah, people may go get the robot tattoo. People may go get their full body under anesthesia. Yeah, go for it. That's not what I'm offering. That's not what I'm talking about. You know what? I'm talking about is like creating opportunities for transformation through uh ancestral skin marking and you can't.
Speaker 3:A robot can't give you that?
Speaker 2:no, yeah, no, totally right, and I would also say even your own experience right of the, the process that you have described in terms of creating that safety, creating that opportunity for people to dissent and to go. Oh, can we change this, can we add that, can we do this? That won't happen in any of those yeah other ways, because it's actually, you know, from your heart to their heart which you can't replicate yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:So yeah, cool, nice that was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, anything else come up for you when you think about um. When I asked you to come on or on your drive here, you know what were some of the things that were going through your mind that you thought you might want to talk about.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I kind of went into it a bit blind. Um, I listened to a couple of your podcast episodes. Yeah, I think that made me almost, uh, feel a touch more anxious and intimidated than I had originally been feeling, because I hear these guests and they have really cool things to say and conversations and questions to be asked, and uh, well, now I'm like, well, I can't ask that because he's heard this before and you know what I mean so no, but it's also the your take on it is going to be different yeah, I uh honestly, maybe I should have written something down some questions to ask you or something.
Speaker 1:So no, it's all good um, but uh, no, I was just. I really came into it here with like an open mind and open heart and, uh, I'll give you what I can um but I feel like even in a brief conversation here I've I've learned a lot and um and uh, for I don't even I've followed you for a little while before you followed me, I think, and I your work is just really incredible and uh, I, I think it's just.
Speaker 1:I think that's maybe another key factor as to why I feel a little bit intimidated. And uh, just because, yeah, I'm like this is like an artist that I'm really impressed by, um, and uh, yeah, I don't know if that really answered. I kind of went off track a little bit there.
Speaker 2:So um, you know, I appreciate, uh, hearing that and also, like I guess, gives me encouragement to know the things that I'm doing are important gives me, uh, maybe a bit of validation in the way that I uh do that work so that you know indigenous artists who are coming up. You know, after me, you know feel like, oh shit, like this is something to you know shoot towards or to emulate, or to work. You know something to be impressed by, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And also, you know, find encouragement from you know, because when I was tattooing there were, you know, find encouragement from you know, because when I was tattooing there were. I can't even think any of you know artists that indigenous artists you know, with a few exceptions. You know, uh, when I think about the indigenous tattoo space, there were very few of course, like uh, the sulu ape family, kione um wong odd. You know some of those, but certainly nobody in Turtle Island in North America to look up to and in this space so you know I take your words to heart to say that.
Speaker 2:You know, like you were like oh shit yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. I take that to heart and I and I thank you for sharing those words, because it is encouraging to me to know that you know the hard work that I put in is being is of value to people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally, and I, with that being said too, like I'm so privileged to um be learning, uh, tattooing now in this day and age where I have so much community and so many avenues and people to look up to that are indigenous artists and indigenous tattoo artists and, like you were saying, it wasn't always like that, and so I just feel really privileged to have had that and everyone that I've ever met in that way.
Speaker 1:They're just so loving and they want to teach me and they want to help me learn and um, I just I feel so welcomed by community in that way and I just feel really privileged that way. Um won't sidetrack too much, but like, I was even talking to my grandpa about that and uh, you know like what it was like, maybe for him, because he went to residential school and whatnot and uh, he was like, yeah, you know what we kept to ourselves? We didn't speak to each other. Um, if I, if someone asked me if I was indigenous, I would tell them that no, I'm mexican, and so he wouldn't, he wouldn't even identify with that growing up, when he was a child and when he was even my age. So I've just I, I'm just really thankful for what I have and speaking with people like you, and even being in the space here, I feel very welcomed, cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I would say that that isn't veering off too much, because I think that speaks to the reality of, you know, indigenous people in the world today. You know indigenous people in the world today you know, living those experiences of erasure.
Speaker 2:Because that's, really what it was about was, you know, self-erasure, self-censorship, all of that type of stuff and I would say that also, you know what would you say impacts the generations that come after, Right, and so, yeah, it's cool to hear you acknowledge that, but you know, uh, it's, it is important to you know, bring forward and, to, you know, acknowledge that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Um, I was going to ask another question. Oh, um, do you do any other art outside of tattooing?
Speaker 1:yeah, I do. Well, I I slow down on painting a lot because you know when you make your hobby, your job you know, you kind of lose a little bit of motivation. But, um, I'm trying to bring it back and you know, now my seasonal depression's kind of gone.
Speaker 1:The weather's getting warmer, so I feel more inclined to do other things. But, yeah, I used to paint a lot. Um, I, I want to kind of get back into it a bit more. Um, what type of stuff did you paint Mostly? Like, well, I did acrylics on canvas. Um, uh, I did. I love doing portraits. I did a lot of like realism, pencil crayon um portraits, but then also just like bugs and nature and things like that. That's something that I really enjoyed and I would love to do more of it. If it wasn't so time consuming, I would put like 60 hours into a painting at least. And, yeah, like you were saying in the beginning of here, like time is money and so, um, trying to find time to do something like that. Um, but, uh, yeah, I was too. Like I, I really love um makeup and I guess that's a kind of a different kind of artistry, but I was a freelance makeup artist for a long time. That was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And, uh, embroidery, I love embroidery oh cool yeah, that's a lot of fun to me and, uh, they call it like needle painting. Yeah, so it's um, really like fine, thin, like strands of string, and you go in and it is the most time consuming art I think I've ever tried in my life. But it is just so satisfying and I just like really, really enjoy it and uh, again, if I had more time for it, I would totally explore that, but I I think I'm gonna maybe focus on doing a couple paintings. Um, and it's convention season.
Speaker 2:I would love to put up some prints and stuff, so yeah, I was gonna ask you about that too, because I did see in your uh, I had a quick glance at your uh. I call it a portfolio, but your instagram portfolio.
Speaker 1:It's an online portfolio. Yeah, totally. Um, uh, look at, yeah, even when you go to conventions.
Speaker 2:People have a QR code for you to check it out, or just their name.
Speaker 1:They don't even have a portfolio physical anymore. Yeah, I'm old school. I got a big old book open. Yeah, you do, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what has been your experience at conventions?
Speaker 1:Well, I've only done one convention before. I have two upcoming this year. So last year I did the Vancouver convention and uh, that was a lot of fun. You know I was freaking out. I had a few anxiety attacks in the car on the way. Again, my boss Rocky had to like give me this anti-anxiety, like herbal medicine, gummy or whatever it was. She's like super hippie, like that. Um, but yeah, I was like really really intimidated and um, again, like going into this, I'm like me, my dinky little tattoo artist self, like there's, there was 400 something artists last year and uh, the guy who I was tattooing right next to other than like our own booth was doing probably the craziest tattoo I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah oh yeah, I'm doing outlines of like Jake the dog from Adventure Time, like banging them out. I'm like, wow, like that's yeah really intense, um, but then after he finished like this two-day piece, so it was like the Friday, saturday and then the Sunday I wish that I could remember his name and I probably should have had it up before then. But there is this guy and he's also an indigenous, indigenous artist and he does similar work to you. Maybe I'll find his Instagram later and send it over, or something.
Speaker 1:But he was just the coolest guy ever and he was doing this really cool like eagle back piece and we just like talked the whole Sunday. That's cool.
Speaker 1:And connected with him and he was really neat and I just had a lot of fun and you know I walked around and there had a lot of fun and you know I walked around and there's just so much there there I thought, you know I went in thinking, oh, it's just like tattoos, but it's like uh, people are doing like palm readings and uh piercings and like tooth gems. I have had tooth gems like all year now because I got mine done at the convention yeah it was just like.
Speaker 1:It was a lot of fun and I I think it soothed a lot of my anxieties about conventions. Now we're doing Winnipeg this year in May and I feel a little bit intimidated less so, and I'm going with my shop family and I'm close to every person I work with, I think, probably.
Speaker 2:I think Nolan does Winnipeg and Gina does Winnipeg and they'll be at the thing here. Oh cool, so you'll be able to meet them.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, and I met so many people. I met so many people.
Speaker 2:I know it's crazy, right, it was so cool, though, I just loved it.
Speaker 1:I'm like wow my people, this is cool, that's awesome and so yeah, and then we're doing Vancouver again in June, uh, in june, and I believe they haven't announced anything yet. But the people that host the vancouver convention, they're going to be putting a fraser valley convention on this year. It's their first one and I think they said something about it happening in november. I but they, that's all I know. I don't think they've announced anything else. So, but if that does go on, then we'll attend that. So then two, possibly three conventions this year for me yeah, I've done uh.
Speaker 2:What did I do uh? You know, I've done tons of calgary edmonton shows which I really enjoy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I have a bunch of friends doing those many, many like lots of them.
Speaker 2:Before I moved, uh back east, uh did what was the traditional tattoo festival in mallorca, spain wow I've done a number of them in New Zealand. Uh, I go pretty much every year now.
Speaker 1:That's incredible.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so cool. In October, my friend Julie, who you'll meet, if you end up coming is uh, puts on Toy Curie. So it's a 10 day event, seven days of like workshops hanging out. Uh, what do you? What would you say? Uh, presentations, cultural things, uh, from indigenous people from all over the world, and we just hang out on the marae, so the ancestral meeting place of that community, that iwi, and then three-day like convention with like indigenous artists from all over the world. So I go every year to that.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. And that's New Zealand. You were saying, yeah, yeah, that's so cool, awesome.
Speaker 2:And then this year I was like I better start doing more conventions. Because I've been so engrossed in these projects that I'm like okay, time to start refocusing back on.
Speaker 1:Even though I am tattooing, it's not tattooing in the same way you know, yeah, I got it um, so I'm gonna do, uh, halifax.
Speaker 2:This will be the first year. Uh, because the old Halifax convention, uh, because of COVID. Just they decided not to do it again. So this is a new crew that'll do fredericton that's all I have planned for this year, I think, uh, there's gonna be a tattooing event in batash. So back to batash days, so like a big one of the big metis events, and I think it's in july. We're gonna go and tattoo there, which will be super cool that's awesome oh I'm going to the Tyendinaga Tattoo Gathering.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So in Mohawk territory.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then of course I'll go to Tuikiri again, and who knows what else I'm trying not to do a lot of travel, but it seems to be stacking up. I've said no to a lot already, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, I to a lot already, but yeah, yeah, it's uh, yeah, I want to start doing probably more.
Speaker 1:like you know, conventions in north america coming up so yeah, I've been curious about traveling and tattooing myself. I I kind of I have a bunch of friends, they, they do it kind of all over. And I was thinking I went to portugal in, uh, september and I almost reached out and did there, but I just, I don't know, I got too scared and then I backed out.
Speaker 1:I'm like maybe I'll just do a couple more conventions and maybe like warm up to it and stuff, but um, oh my god, I can't imagine how complicated it's gonna be. Luckily Vancouver is so close that we can drive, and then right after, my sister lives just around the corner so I crash at her place so I don't gotta really worry about too much. Um, but uh, yeah, I'm feeling a bit intimidated. Going all the way to winnipeg and flying out there, I got bad flight anxiety too oh, yeah, yeah yeah, no, it's, uh it's, it's an enjoy I enjoy it.
Speaker 2:Uh, it's just sometimes.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, just other things get get in the way yeah no kidding, I'm surprised you even have time for for this outside of tattooing and traveling here and doing this and then also tattooing. That's like wow. What kind of superhuman skill is that? That's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just you know the things we've got to do. You have that, uh, you see, that need and you kind of that drive to go like, yeah, we gotta fucking do this yeah and then I just crash, yeah, oh my god, I believe it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I want to have more time at home.
Speaker 2:Uh, go hiking with my wife and our dog and like spend more time. Yeah, you know, just not chill necessarily yeah not be so out there in the world um yeah, I got it, but yeah plus, I think it's important for me to do the podcast in person. You know it'd be easy enough to, like you know, patch in and do like virtual interviews, but I think it's important to visit with somebody.
Speaker 2:It's one of the things I love about tattooing is like you get to be with somebody, you know maybe it's only for a couple of hours and maybe, maybe you'll never see them again, but it's like you get to be with them and like have that human connection. Oh yeah, I think it's a dying skill almost.
Speaker 1:No, I agree with you on that one. Yeah, totally, I, just I it feels more authentic this way and natural, and I don't know, I think that's probably one of the things that I hated so much about universities, especially after COVID. I don't know how they do things now, but like after that, they just switched everything online and there's just, I feel, so much more I could have learned in a physical environment and having that authentic connection over um, just sitting in my bed on a zoom call for an hour once a week. You know, sucks, it sucks. Yeah, it's a tough way to go.
Speaker 2:oh, totally, yeah, big time so you said, uh, in the beginning, uh, that you put you on a spot a little bit. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, totally. You said you found some. You learned some things in your sociology degree, was it? Yeah, yeah, that you think uh may help you in your current career? What do you think? I would love to talk about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, totally. I just I feel very privileged to have learned what I did through university. I never ended up finishing with my degree, so I only did my two years out of my four years of my bachelor's degree. But in the very beginning, at least in my experience, they do a lot of well, like one English based work, but a lot of it was I wanted to. The end goal was for me to be a therapist, so you have to learn a lot about parasocial relationships, interpersonal skills and, in the nitty gritty of it, what it's like to hear something really heavy and not take it home, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1:So, um, and I think it's just really relevant to tattooing. You know, like a lot of people I have a parasocial relationship with, like got to keep it professional. You know, like, at the end of the day, I'm the tattooer and you, you are my client, but, um, I'm here to make you comfortable and um, I say that as like a loose term. You know, like, I do have a lot of um love for everyone that I've ever tattooed and um, it's, it's real, genuine, like from the heart. I'm doing something really permanent on your body and it and it means a lot.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, you know, like, I hear I've had some people tell me some really, really heavy stuff and you've probably heard it too. I think everyone has and so, um, especially things that, uh, are quite upsetting, like I thought, you know, everyone has their own individual traumas and possibly triggers, and um, I, I get that and you know it's really hard for me, um, and I won't go too big on the topic, but, like, if someone has a parent who has passed away, that is very, very sensitive to me and so, um, because I went through that recently, especially anything with, like a mom figure.
Speaker 3:I'm like in tears basically. So I'm like, fuck.
Speaker 1:Well, how do I, you know, like they're telling me this really sad thing about their mom. I'm tattooing them. I'm like, okay, how do I hold this in right now? Like you know, like um and uh, how do I not be upset by it? And um, there's never really been a scenario in which I've taken it home and been quite upset about it.
Speaker 1:Um, and I, I got to give credit to what I've learned in university and those skills and um, yeah, you know what, like uh, it's also hard and it feels so unnatural to hear these really heavy things and connect with someone on a personal level and then not reciprocate it. You know, I will to like a degree, but, like um, you don't want to get too, too overly personal with someone. And uh, and you know, on the very, very, very rare time it happened, like once or twice, I've had people that will, you know, like, go and look me up on my private social media and and request it, which is fine. But then I've had people go ahead and maybe send me like inappropriate messages and things like that after, and you know, then it's like you're you're breaking a boundary here, like um, not that it's like a very strict term, but by the end of the day, like I'm a working professional and um uh, yeah, you're doing a lot of stuff, that feels really unnatural.
Speaker 1:It feels unnatural to uh not connect with someone on a on a very personal level, um and uh, and holding boundaries. Boundaries are a really hard thing to to maintain, for at least myself. Um and uh. I want, I want to uh comfort someone and uh, but like, how do you do it?
Speaker 3:in a professional way.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. So, and it's also that too, like, aside from that, like you know, once you're tattooing someone, you do a lot of like really, really heavy, dark stuff and you're probably in it for a long time. That person's probably over it after a little while and it's really hard, at least for me, to um, maintain almost I wouldn't say maintain my composure, cause that sounds extreme, but I guess I'm saying that for lack of a better term like, um, when you're causing them a lot of pain. You know, uh, and I've had, I've had some people cry in the chair out of pain and fuck, it's not a good feeling, it sucks it and I feel bad and uh, so that's another thing I learned from my schooling is like how to not take that home because they know it's not personal. I know it's not personal, but I feel empathetic. You know, like you're really going through it.
Speaker 1:Even yesterday I was tattooing my husband and he was like at the end of it he's like, fuck, I am over it and even like, whatever I'm doing, some like big black, heavy snake, and he was bleeding and it wasn't even like that bad, but I'm like, wow, like I feel really bad right now, like he's fine, he can take it. It he'll sit for hours and hours. He's a champ, but like I just you know, like you feel bad and uh, how to not feel bad, basically, and how to not take it home is is a lot of what I learned, um, and I think it's really relevant to this job and it's not, you know, and when you're learning to be a therapist, it's a bit more extreme about, like, confidentiality and things like that, but I also feel like it really applies to um you know our job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think you know. Just to touch on the last part and then I'll double back. Is you know? That's about creating safety. Yeah, Confidentiality is about safety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:So, uh, that's an important part and I would say that, yeah, I think, uh, it's interesting the little bits of insecurity that you had about, you know, coming here. I think the conversation that we just opened up is like such an important part of the work that isn't always talked about and that comes from your own experience of the schooling and things that you had.
Speaker 2:So you know, I hold you up in terms of that experience and being able to transfer that to the work that you do as a tattoo artist, because not everybody has those same skills and I think it's important to acknowledge, because you're conscious of it and you recognize that those are important things that you need as a tattoo artist.
Speaker 2:And that you're willing to talk about it right as a tattoo artist, and that you're willing to talk about it Right. So I hold you up and I thank you for opening up this conversation, because not everybody you know has those same experiences. And I would say, when I think about that idea of not bringing it home, and that really connects to what you would call like secondary trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, it's really like listening to somebody's story actually does something to you? Because our bodies don't always, because we can imagine it, especially as artistic people, creative people we can imagine some of those stories that people are describing to us, and so we have a physiological reaction. Our bodies, like go into the sometimes feel those same things.
Speaker 2:So yeah, how do we work through those things. That's a big question that I always ask some of my friends is like uh, julia mungale gray. I asked her you know a papua new guinean skin marker? I asked like how do you deal with the trauma that you engage with as you're going through and marking people? And she says we move. She's a big dancer.
Speaker 2:She says we move that energy through because you have to find a way to, you know, get rid of it and she says so as soon as they finish the person leaves and, you know, a lot of times they tattoo tattoo communally so they'll all get up and dance or they'll go to the water in the ocean, you know, and have a swim. So to get rid of that, opportunities to do that and, you know, even think of that in terms of some of the ceremonies that people do after the finishing of a tattoo you're supposed to, you know, dance that tattoo right so working through.
Speaker 2:Some of that energy and I would say for myself is part of my process is to help the person, is to create opportunities in a ceremonial way that says that we're starting this work now and then, when we finish, we're going to do this thing and it's done so. Whatever happened in that space is contained within that time frame, so that you know they can engage with it, start it and end it, and then we know that we're going into something different, right? So?
Speaker 2:we kind of put that in a little bit of a container, and you know different practices for myself, just cultural practices of cleansing, and you know doing those things with intention. You know also having things for people to have in their hand, to hold and sometimes, you know, I would say sometimes part of it is also creating those boundaries for yourself and going like you know, hey, I would love to hear your story, but I just can't right now.
Speaker 1:I really gotta concentrate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and that's so hard to say because, that just feels so unnatural, but yeah, yeah, it's just so important, I would say because I can relate to that, because my dad passed in 2018 and actually I stopped tattooing for almost a year oh, wow and I didn't realize it at the time, but I was like yo I can't hold this and so I went and worked at the university, so part of me like stopping working at the university was like I can't fucking handle the university.
Speaker 1:But the other thing was like I realized like I missed tattooing.
Speaker 2:So I've tried to stop tattooing a few times. You know, I still continue teaching, I still continued visiting, I still continued tattooing here and there, but tried to stop it as a you know my profession. But I would say part of that was also like the rawness of not having that ability to just go yo like this isn't my shit, you know, like that barrier wasn't there emotionally.
Speaker 2:So I had to step away from it. So I can totally relate to what you're saying and what you're sharing and you know it's an important conversation to put out there for people to consider. Like how do you, number one, create spaces of safety and opportunity for change and transformation with your client? Through trauma, through just fucking being hurt because it's painful?
Speaker 1:yeah, totally. So how do you create?
Speaker 2:spaces for them to engage with that process and work through it, but also, how do you fashion that for yourself?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, totally no and uh, no. Thanks for sharing your process and which you go about like. I've never, really it never occurred to me like ceremonial practices could be held after like tattooing and stuff. Obviously, like the way that we tattoo as individuals are quite different yeah but that's a really, really cool perspective and, uh, I've never really thought of it that way, cause I mean, obviously, at the end of the day, you know, once they've fought the good fight, I'm like okay see ya, bye, yeah, you know what?
Speaker 1:And uh, and it's just, yeah, it's, it's not a really good feeling and uh, I don't know, but I, whatever you know it's learning that skill of like I'm like not taking it home. Um and uh, yeah, it also could just be like nonverbal things too, like, uh, if someone's kind of like trauma dumping if that's like the term I want to use it it could not be that. It could just be like they're really, really going through it and like or nervous or nervous too,
Speaker 1:you know, and like the, the skill of literally like checking out and like not trying to be like empathetic to that individual who's clearly going through it in terms of the pain department. You know Like it's a hard skill that I was semi unprepared to learn. I didn't really think about that being a part of um, my tattoo, my tattoo practice, you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I would say again it's important to talk about, cause I would uh mirror that. You know, when I first started you think it's just about the fucking lines and the smooth shading and the nice grades and the you know packing it in.
Speaker 3:So all of a sudden, you're like what the fuck is happening?
Speaker 2:yeah, this person is crying what do I do? Right, fuck so so yeah, it's important to bring up and um yeah it's a. Yeah, it's a, it was. That was one of actually the hardest things for me, to be honest with you yeah learning to tattoo was it wasn't necessarily the line work or any of that stuff.
Speaker 2:Like the cause. I would say it is a technical aspect of tattooing to hold that space for people and of course people do it in different ways and I can't say one way is better than the other. But yeah, that was difficult to like hurt somebody and you know, just be able to continue exactly.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, big time I get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was uh I think I told the story the other day, so everybody who's watching will hear it again.
Speaker 1:But I'll share it with you. Thanks, I know I appreciate that um uh, my friend, uh, megan.
Speaker 2:I was tattooing megan and our friend, mutual friend, megan, was there and megan started crying because we were doing some big, big work on the legs.
Speaker 1:Oh my god.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she's like looked at our mutual friend megan and said I'm not crying because of the pain I'm crying because of colonialism it was just like oh, that's a t-shirt, for sure. Yeah, oh, that's good I like that.
Speaker 2:Um oh uh. One thing I wanted to say, just for people who are listening and also for you yeah um, there's a great, two great books that I could recommend that deal with some of the things we're talking about. One is uh, oh, I don't know that I have the title 100, but it's tamera santi banyas. Um, it's uh, tattoo is magic.
Speaker 2:I think okay uh, but it talks about, you know, trauma. Talks also about creating safe spaces and tattooing uh talks about those boundaries. I would also say it talks about, uh, the woman's experience of creating safety for themselves as practitioners. So you talked about, uh, inappropriate messages, those type of things like that's important stuff to you, know, uh? Think about and create, you know, uh, ways of dealing with them. Uh, so, tamera santi banya's I don't know if that's the exact title. Tattoo is magic. I think it is.
Speaker 1:It's like an orange book that, honestly, it sounds a bit familiar to me.
Speaker 2:I can't save you probably heard a podcast, because they've done podcasts and I do lots of podcasts. So you said, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and then the other one is trauma stewardship, I think it's called and so it's really about, uh, working through some of that secondary trauma and creating processes for yourself. Even if people don't have a spiritual practice that maybe could support that, you could build secular practices that could help you to move through those things.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, just a couple of resources for people when we think about this reality of uh dealing with tattooing.
Speaker 1:No, that's really neat. I'll have to check that out after. Yeah, I'm quite interested. I'm like open to this world of like, tattooing and like, and I can't even say it. Indigenous artists Like that's, that's, it's really neat and I didn't really know of its existence. Really too much so yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Um, wow, what was I gonna say? Yeah, no, and I think it's just really that's the way that we uh do these things is it really is in that spiritual realm for me? You know, I talk about I've talked about tattooing as tattoo medicine. I talk about it, as you know transformative marks and all of those things.
Speaker 2:So when we say that we have to be able to. Well, from my perspective, we have to be able to think through them in a way that honors each of those words and create safety and security and sacredness in each of those aspects. Yeah, no, absolutely Cool, cool cool, um, anything else come up for you just as we start to wind down yeah, because it's been a good conversation. I don't even know how long we've been talking. I don't even know either. I'm being really honest with you no uh, no, I, uh, I.
Speaker 1:I was really happy to share the interpersonal skills and that side of tattooing Because, again, I don't hear it very often and I love to share what I know and you know, like, knowledge is power and knowledge is useful, and I'm really happy to have learned what I did in school, even though I didn't end up getting my official degree. I think it's just really, again, really applies to the job and, yeah, no, I'm just, I'm really happy that we were able to touch base on that. I feel like we've explored, like so many topics here, there and everywhere, all over the place.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah but that's just how I communicate, at least as an individual. I'm kind of all over the place. Oh yeah, yeah, but that's just how I communicate, at least as an individual. I'm kind of all over the map.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, plus, I think that's just the way conversation goes, and we just pull on little threads like say you know, pull on that little thread and see where it goes. So, no, I really enjoyed the opportunity to talk with you, get to know you. I look forward to seeing you at the exhibition and, you know who knows, maybe at a convention somewhere, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, maybe in the future, do a follow-up episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, uh as you've uh got some more experience and done some more work and uh done some research and maybe start to transform your practice in a different way.
Speaker 1:Oh, big time, yeah. No, I feel very encouraged by what?
Speaker 2:you were saying earlier, that's good and likewise for everything you said.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for inviting me into your space and into your practice here. I feel very honored and it was great getting to know you. Aside from all this, you're just such a cool individual. I don't know you're just really mean, mean and you have a lot of really cool things to say and perspectives, um, and I just yeah, it's really interesting. So thank you so much for sharing your time with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and your space hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me. Uh, through this episode, I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you, here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head on over to next week's episode, where I talk to Paul McKenzie of Witsuit, an artist based here in British Columbia. Paul McKenzie, a Wet'suwet'en artist based here in British Columbia. In this episode, we talk about the creation of a hybrid style that incorporates form, line design and black and gray realism. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.