#018 Imagine tracing the contours of your identity through the indelible ink of ancestral tattoos, as Sydney, our guest, shares her journey of reconnection and revival. Amid the backdrop of her family's history entwined with the 60s Scoop, Sydney's narrative weaves the art of tattooing with the threads of cultural healing and heritage. As she guides us from the canvas of hides to the living tapestry of skin, we uncover the poignant transformation of personal and collective identity through the time-honored practice of Indigenous tattooing.
Join us for an intimate exploration of the power of Indigenous art and its role in storytelling, resistance, and identity reaffirmation. Sydney opens up about the vulnerability and strength found in embedding personal history into visual art, inspiring a new wave of artists at Emily Carr University and beyond. The episode celebrates the resurgence of traditional practices, such as hide tanning and tattooing, which stand as testaments to resilience. We revel in the beauty of Indigenous languages flourishing in classrooms, the art of cultural sharing, and the balance struck between preserving sacred traditions and inviting inclusivity.
Witness the transformative journey of an artist whose creative endeavors extend beyond mere expression to become active agents of cultural preservation and academic accessibility for Indigenous communities. Sydney's voice echoes the significance of passing down knowledge through art, ensuring the vibrancy of Indigenous identity amidst the modern world's complexities. Her story, punctuated by the creation of a deeply personal short film, is a reminder of art's capacity to connect us to our ancestors and chart a path for future generations, honoring the past while boldly navigating the currents of contemporary life.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Sydney at:
Instagram @sydney.f.pascal
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
#018 Imagine tracing the contours of your identity through the indelible ink of ancestral tattoos, as Sydney, our guest, shares her journey of reconnection and revival. Amid the backdrop of her family's history entwined with the 60s Scoop, Sydney's narrative weaves the art of tattooing with the threads of cultural healing and heritage. As she guides us from the canvas of hides to the living tapestry of skin, we uncover the poignant transformation of personal and collective identity through the time-honored practice of Indigenous tattooing.
Join us for an intimate exploration of the power of Indigenous art and its role in storytelling, resistance, and identity reaffirmation. Sydney opens up about the vulnerability and strength found in embedding personal history into visual art, inspiring a new wave of artists at Emily Carr University and beyond. The episode celebrates the resurgence of traditional practices, such as hide tanning and tattooing, which stand as testaments to resilience. We revel in the beauty of Indigenous languages flourishing in classrooms, the art of cultural sharing, and the balance struck between preserving sacred traditions and inviting inclusivity.
Witness the transformative journey of an artist whose creative endeavors extend beyond mere expression to become active agents of cultural preservation and academic accessibility for Indigenous communities. Sydney's voice echoes the significance of passing down knowledge through art, ensuring the vibrancy of Indigenous identity amidst the modern world's complexities. Her story, punctuated by the creation of a deeply personal short film, is a reminder of art's capacity to connect us to our ancestors and chart a path for future generations, honoring the past while boldly navigating the currents of contemporary life.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Sydney at:
Instagram @sydney.f.pascal
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
Express what I think it felt like, or like a sentiment, to my grandmother and mom, and what it must have felt like to have to live through those moments that are related to the 60s scoop, and trying to navigate that in my own position as like their granddaughter and daughter.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikotmok professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmok skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Hello, hello, my name is Sydney. My Uxkwamuch Squatchich is Quimchkin, a name given to me by my late grandmother, teresa Atzi Paschal, and I'm from the Uxkwamuch Nation.
Speaker 2:Awesome, thank you. So I always ask it this way and you can interpret it, take it the way you want to, but what's been the journey that has brought you to be talking to me on the transformative Mark's podcast?
Speaker 1:I feel like I could. That could be like a long journey.
Speaker 2:Go wherever you want to go, you know, just to help people understand you, the journey of your life that brought you here. And you can make that as long or as short as it needs to be.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I've been thinking about this a lot because I never thought I'd end up in the arts, but art, or at least drawing when I was was little, was always something that I loved to do. But in the from like kindergarten to grade 12, I grew up in an environment where that wasn't really seen as a career path or wasn't encouraged. They're like if you don't know sciences or math, you're not gonna make it, and I was just like what I like.
Speaker 1:But I'm not good at that. I was like low-key freaking out about that. And then I did have an English teacher, though I was like the art should be valued just as much as these other things. Like don't panic, and I was like, okay, but no, I ended up going into design school in Edmonton. I was like, well, if I want to do art, I could maybe make money in graphic design yeah.
Speaker 1:And ended up dropping out. Yeah, Two and a half years into the program. It was a three year program, so I was like I kind of made it. Then we got into coding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like that's it Um felt too much like math yeah um, felt too much like math, yeah, and so I took a break and moved away and was working on my drawings and art, but I didn't really feel like my practice was grounded anywhere. So after a few years I moved back home and applied to go to the fine arts program in Edmonton at Grant McEwen, got accepted and then kind of this whole whirlwind within our family.
Speaker 1:I found out like I always grew up in my community yeah but but not really with them, because they're over here and we're always over there. So we'd always visit all the time and I kind of never really understood that until whatever reasons brought my mom and I together and she told me that she was part of the 60 scoop, yeah, and my grandma, and it just kind of it ended up making a lot of sense about all these like kind of unanswered questions I had, but also that brought up a lot more questions.
Speaker 1:So that kind of was like the beginning of me delving into that part of our family history yeah and then I felt, just because art has always been a way for me to express myself, or I find like I guess, lack of a better word healing yeah that was just how I started to express what that felt like for me and what that meant.
Speaker 1:So, and with my mom's permission, she wanted me to share her story and I did that through my art practice and so I feel like I delve into a lot of different mediums and at this moment in time, I feel like tattooing feels like the natural next step in like my visual practice and how I want to share, yeah, like that might be a lot side. So, yeah, and then I saw your name going around and got was really interested in the research you're doing. I find it very inspiring on how we can like start our own practices. Yeah, because I feel like for me, I spoke with some family trying to find some information, but a lot of it's like gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's just like, where do we start? And you just got to do it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's kind of cool, especially when I think about because, of course, I've been just looking at the stuff that you've been doing just to understand your practice a little bit more it's kind of cool to think about that transition from working with hides and then now coming to tattoos. That's kind of cool. I just did an interview with Heather Kiskamon from Muscogee's in Alberta and they were talking about the work that they've been doing with hides, or she's been doing with hides, and so, yeah, I just wanted to bring that up, since it came up in our conversation already. Like, what has that experience been?
Speaker 1:And yeah, yeah, one of my cousins inspired me to get into high tanning and I became friends with my mentor, mara, who's been teaching me I think about five years now and it's just so cool to I've never done a practice that's, I guess, that ancient popular tradition and it was so neat and also crazy to see the intense physical labor that was put into it and to think of us repeating these steps that they once did, but also thinking about the skin aspect and how I felt like I was transforming this animal skin to have an extended life and to like be able to tell a different story, whether like on our skin or how I want to do through my visual practice. Yeah, yeah, so it's neat to think about like tattooing and the markings they leave on skin and then also how that aspect, like how they differ, but like they have, like they're both like kind of vessels for storytelling or applying our culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. And you know, when I think about the connection between our clothing, like we as Int'l'Katmok and interior Salish folks would wear hide clothing- and then those design symbols, motifs would be painted on the hides, and then that transfers, of course, the tattooing. So, yeah, just uh, even though I talked to Heather, uh, like a week ago, I didn't think about that connection, uh, just until you were talking about it right now. So it's kind of cool to think about those connections yeah, I'm trying to think more about it it's all right you don't have to think anymore, it's good, it's all good.
Speaker 2:Um, one thing I thought might be valuable to share, because not, not, not everybody is going to know what the 60s scoop is.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So, if you feel comfortable, just share what the 60s scoop is so that when people hear your story and your family's story, what we're talking about Because you know, we understand what that- is, but not everybody does. So I'll just get you to share whatever you feel comfortable sharing about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess, like the short historical description of it was between the 50s up until 80s. There's like the mass apprehension of Indigenous kids from their homes and communities, taken by the ministry and put into the children welfare system and put into predominantly non-indigenous homes, and for my mom and grandma that was like here in Vancouver. And then they were reunited 25 years later. No help from the government who kind of tried to keep that tie severed by being untruthful, by being untruthful and but yeah, it was essentially just another way to take our people out of our culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah, it is a crazy crazy experience and, uh, you know, uh, another. I guess it's important. I felt it was important to bring it up because a lot of folks don't know about some of these histories and so, yeah, just bringing that forward is important.
Speaker 1:So I appreciate you sharing that with me and yeah, yeah, and I think it's also like I think it was important for my mom to want to share this, and I also think it's important to share her story, because I think a lot of people consider these events that happen like history and oh, but this happened so long ago. I'm like, I'm first generation to not be taken from my community and that's wild for me to think about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, from my community, and that's wild for me to think about. Yeah, and how. How many of us are affected by these, whether we were legitimately in it or not, or if it was our parents, grandparents.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, even you think about, um, the reality of that and the impact that it's had on, say, uh, that, and the impact that it's had on, say, uh, skin marking or tattooing, right, and so you know, you shared that you know when you started to look. You're like, oh like there's, just I can't find that stuff yeah and you put that within the context of, um, you know, uh, the 60s scoop, residential schools, enfranchisement, all of those things yeah it's easy to see why we, a lot of that stuff is not able to be found at the present moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and interesting too. I just thinking about it, uh, because you know, you hear all, uh, you know, western tattoo artists talking about the legacy of the work that they're doing. Oh, sailor Jerry, and all of this type of stuff, right, but it's like well that the history of our marking is within that context. Yeah, it's interesting. I never thought about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, we are creating the new old, as my friend Julia Mungiao Gray says. You know, creating uh the new old, as my friend uh julia mungiao gray says. You know it's the new old. Because I always say, like we're looking back saying, oh, that's old, that's ancestral. You know, my ancestors did that, but we're one day going to be the ancestors, we're the descendants, and then they will look back in a hundred years and go that shit's old right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, just doing that work now in the contemporary time for the people to be those who are coming. So I want to just ask you you know how long have you been tattooing? And talk to me about, like your apprenticeship and how you got into skin marking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I've only been tattooing just a little over a year with my friend Mikey or Michelle Brown, who is a good friend of mine and was nice enough to dedicate the time to be my mentor, and I was able to get the funding support through that, through First People Cultural Council, who've supported me with my high tanning and all these new practices. I want to do so. I'm really thankful that they. That provides me like the space to do that. Yeah, but yeah, I just feel like I'm at the point, like I mentioned earlier, I delve into so many different practices and and.
Speaker 1:I feel like for me, the more different things I know, the more I can share, especially in the position that I work in as a program coordinator for Indigenous students at Emily Carr try to give as much resources as I can and also seeing that many students or emerging artists are somewhat or have been completely disconnected from their communities and want to delve into their culture and be able to express that through their art. But there's like a lot of fear behind that and trying and like, like not saying I don't have that either. But then when I see that I want to be able to help them move forward in doing that.
Speaker 1:But I understand there's like a lot of fear and that there's something like vulnerable when you're putting your artwork out there yeah whether it's like on our skin or sculptural or any form of visual art, it's a really vulnerable place to be yeah, you had mentioned that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, what was it? It was a podcast I listened to that you did uh for an exhibition that you were part of and you that was actually one of the quotes that I brought out to um, you said it's you share that sometimes it's very exposing to put such personal stories out there, but you do it anyway because our voices are important yeah, and I've definitely, I guess, compared to maybe five or so years ago when I moved here.
Speaker 1:I didn't have much exposure in getting my art out there. But I feel like I have a little bit and so far that I feel like the indigenous art community is super supportive, at least the one, the community I've met here in Vancouver. But I feel it can be like a totally different uh space when you're trying to promote yourself online and it's and like Instagram or social media is kind of the way everyone's trying to make their business or livelihood now. So it's just weird to think about like how did we do this before?
Speaker 2:all of this. Yeah, yeah, big time. Yeah, it's an important point, I think, to put forward the fact that when you put out your work and you share, because a lot of your work, as I understand it as a fine artist, I suppose you know being part of the art world is you know very much personal stories, the story of your family yeah and so I can understand why that would be such a challenging thing and exposing to you know that feeling, that you feel when you put that out there yeah, but I find it interesting because even I feel, if I'm not telling like this specific story of this event in my family, like I'm always going to be in my work, and I find it interesting I've seen like a lot of non-indigenous artists, when there's a little bit of vulnerability or a little bit of them in their art, they kind of freak out yeah
Speaker 1:oh, but this is like mean, I'm like, but I'm not everyone's gonna see that looking about it, but when we have the privilege of sharing the backstory with one another, it feels exposing. But I guess that comes to the point where it's just how much do you want to share?
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the reasons why I wanted to ask you to come on, even though you've been, you know, doing the work of tattooing for a year is for people to see someone who is just in the beginning of their journey. Yeah, tattooing, and you know uh them to feel encouraged in that work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I would say that that would also be the same with, uh uh, the sharing of your story, because there's so many other indigenous folks who are out there who are in a similar situation where yeah you know, their families have been disrupted by these colonial practices yeah, um so, yeah, it's just, uh, I would say that it's very courageous for you to take that step and to share those things, and so I just hold you up in that.
Speaker 1:Thank you and I think about it's not a quick process, at least for me, because I wasn't necessarily completely disconnected from my community, but not everybody knows who I am and so I know my family will always back me up but, I hope that as over time, when people get to know me, or because people, I think there's like a lot of hurt and so when people don't know you or if they see something that's coming from a certain place, they might be upset.
Speaker 1:So I hope people will have like conversation or I'm always up for being educated and I'm working on doing my research, as with any practice. It's not to say I don't think people should be scared. I just get to put a lot of care into what you're doing. Yeah, if you're doing it in that good way.
Speaker 2:I think that's the same with my own experience. In the beginning, some elders, some other community members were like ah well, we didn't really do that, or oh, that should stay in the past, we shouldn't pick that up again. Um, and then now, uh, to be honest with you, uh, some of those folks that were doing that criticism are the ones who are lining up to get face tattoos. You know, like so it's just. Yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 1:People want to see that you're doing that in a good way and giving back to the community and not extracting, you know yeah, and I feel, at least in this moment, I know at least my generation I see the younger one are really like craving this practice to be marked and like really ground themselves or like in their identity, and I think that's like a powerful way to do it and I've at least witnessed how much healing that can bring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely yeah yeah, and you know I I don't know if I've shared it on here, but I talk about it a lot in terms of the reality that you know, the indian act, youual Civilization Act as it was called before it became the Indian Act All of that type of stuff was put in place to erase who we are and our identity. So it's such a powerful practice to step into, to take that back, and I shared. Kanahus Manuel says, like when you put those marks on a woman's face like 500 years of colonization just disappears.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, it's just like no, I'm here and you have to deal with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's true, though, like I feel like that's been an an ongoing phrase. The last few years of my life is just even like watching students just wanting to say, like, assert their presence, yeah, out here in society, yeah, definitely well, it's uh cool to see that you're helping those students to achieve those things, even while you're in that yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I try so why?
Speaker 2:you know, uh, you kind of shared that you came into tattooing and you started that apprenticeship and you're working through being mentored. But you know you said that it was a natural progression, progression to pick up, uh, tattooing. And why do you think tattooing drew you in to the work? Why did skin marking draw you in? What drew you in?
Speaker 1:um, I mean, I growing up I was always drawing. I thought that would be my medium for life and that, of course, evolved and I've touched on a lot of different things. But I feel like I'm coming back to want to draw but I wasn't sure how to leave those marks that I wanted to create, marks that I want to create and and I was just hanging out with some family and just looking through the history books and seeing the few drawings we have of the markings we had, and then I just felt like that's such a powerful medium and.
Speaker 1:I think, because I don't know many people who are practicing that in my community. I just feel that would be another great skill to be able to share with future generations if they want to do that. Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's like a weird connection between like the high tanning and like yeah, skin thing going on, but um well, and then you also connect it back to um the piece that you did with the beadwork across the land. You know the geography, you know making that mark on the land, you know the skin of the earth and, yeah, there's some connections there, I would say as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've had some interesting comments over time because the hides I've installed in non-traditional ways and sculptural forms rather than outfits, and I've had some like remarks where they're like that's not even close to what our ancestors did and like up to those standards and I'm like I don't think I'll ever make what they created. But also we live in a different time and I feel like we're taking our skills and applying them into the environments we are currently living in. Like because we've had to evolve with all the what's happened over time, these practices are going to evolve as well and look different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, it's an important point. Um, yeah, I always share that. Uh, of course, our practices are reaching back to our ancestors and going you know, trying to hold hands with them, but then it's also like, okay, well, I have to think about what's happening today.
Speaker 2:You know our ancestors didn't have to think who they were, as in Tlacatmoc people right, they just knew who they were and they could look, and oh yeah, I know the stories of that mount in that river, that lake. You know, I know that coyote transformed, uh, that monster over there yeah right like, and so all those stories were there and you didn't have to worry about who you were. But, when you grow up side of your territory, you know different processes of stripping you of your identity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have to think, ok, well, what are these practices for us today? And then my my thoughts, always like I just want it to be again what we do as inflicamic people yeah, right like it's not special because we're reviving, it is special because it's just what we do. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:So I can, I sense that in your own um, in your own description of that, you know that sense of responsibility to those who are coming yeah, and I think it can be daunting, at least for me, to be an artist or try and do that for a living.
Speaker 1:But I'm happy to see that there's more support to try and do that, because I know that without the support I've had with grants that it's hard to figure out how to do that. It's like, oh well, you've got to pay rent and you gotta make a living, but I also want to go home and learn like cedar basket weaving. But it's like how do you do that? Yeah, so I don't know.
Speaker 2:No, it's important yeah, no, it's really important. I'm glad you brought that back up, because I wanted to, yeah, just lift up those that have supported me in terms and even in supporting this podcast, that travel to visit, you know, uh, the Canada Council for the Arts, you know, is supporting, uh, the creation of this podcast, and so, and for me, part of that is the importance of visiting and spending time with people actually sitting down instead of, you know, over that electronic zoom, you know yeah talking that way.
Speaker 2:It's important, I think, for us to sit together in the same place and space and have these conversations. So, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, that you know, uh, and also to honor those who are in the selection committees who see the value of this work of tattooing, which, you know, hasn't uh, in the contemporary time, been treated as art, right? So it's pretty cool to see how that's starting to develop out into arts grants yeah, that word art yeah, I know right.
Speaker 2:So, uh, we touched a little bit on some of your other uh practices, like the hide work and stuff. Um, what are the other things that you do?
Speaker 1:uh, right now I'm really into video work, making short films, which usually consist of documenting performances I do on the land as a way to express what I think it felt like, or like a sentiment, to my grandmother and mom and what it must have felt like, to have to live through those moments that are related to the 60s scoop and trying to navigate that in my own position as like their granddaughter and daughter. But it's been a really good experience for me and I'm interested to see how my practice can evolve after because, like for me, this is like kind of a grieving set like part of the making and me kind of moving through the motions and understanding this part of our history. So I'm kind of interested of how things will evolve moving out of that. Yeah so, and interested to see how my research goes, thinking more into, like looking at our designs in my community and how I can start applying those into my various forms, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's kind of cool. That's one thing that I picked up on also is that you shared that. You mentioned that sometimes you get stuck in the challenging parts of Indigenous history and our current Indigenous lived experiences, but then you also share, uh, you know, an important question, and that question was like how can I portray the hopefulness and joy of our lives, which I thought was, you know, a very valuable insight?
Speaker 2:and it sounds like you're continuing to ask that question in your work as opposed to being stuck in that you, you know, taking that process of healing. And then now, what's next?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I try not to be like too hard on myself because it's a valid and like necessary part of learning these things and feeling through them and that I shouldn't be embarrassed to be in this like grieving stage but to share it and move forward.
Speaker 1:But also I, because I find it easy to get lost in that, because I don't know, I feel like it's easy to drown in all like everything that's happened and but, and I'm like I can't fix everything, even though it feels like I I want to. When you see everything going on, it's just like. But if I come back and zone in on what's going on and being able to teach, I was able to teach alongside my friend mara, a group of high school kids to do high tanning, yeah, and they're hilarious and stubborn, but to watch the ones that were really connected to it and just have fun and watching them grow in the community and they're learning the language and they're like bickering and making fun of each other in the language and it was like the most beautiful thing I've ever seen and for them it's just natural. But I'm like wow, like that's huge, at least for me to see, especially.
Speaker 1:I'm just a beginner learner, but for them it's becoming a natural yeah thing again and I'm just like, wow, I don't know, there's a lot of things to be excited about, yeah yeah, thank you for sharing that, I think.
Speaker 2:Uh, it reminds me when I the first time I went to Aotearoa to New Zealand and we were staying with our one friend, friends hosted us for the evening and maybe two days and just seeing their little one whining in Maori. You know, like you know that you don't know what he's saying. I didn't know what he was saying, but you could tell that he was whining it was just like the coolest thing they're like oh my god, he's whining and like that's so cool, totally, um.
Speaker 1:I remember I just saw alanise obamsoin at the vancouver art gallery and she's lived such a large life and was speaking about how she's been able to witness from all the way back in the 40s up until now and how our people have evolved and how strong and powerful we are and just be able to watch like our generation not only be able to speak our language but want to, and just I couldn't imagine what that must have felt like, but it is true. Just I know I've seen some silent speakers in our family yeah and.
Speaker 1:But then we have some that and like I'm eager to learn and just we never thought that would happen again, so it's kind of wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is and, yeah, it reminds me of the conversation I had with echo alec, who's uh in the comic and uh just in the beginning stages of uh her journey with skin marking, and uh talking about uh when she brings her little ones with her to different events, different tattooing things, and that's just going to be part of their experience, their everyday experience of like this is just what we do we just mark people so they won't know anything different than people getting their skin markings. Yeah right, they won't know anything different than people getting their skin markings.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, they won't know anything different than people having face tattoos.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, you know.
Speaker 2:And it just like gave me chills when she started talking about it. I was just like oh shit. Like this is epic, you know.
Speaker 1:Like it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Pretty cool. I know it's going to be hard to. I guess, before we go there, what are some of your favorite when you think about the work that you want to do as a skin marker?
Speaker 1:or as a tattoo artist. What does that work?
Speaker 2:look like. I know you're just beginning and you're stepping in, but when you imagine that you know if of Maori were there and some of us were able to get tattooed by them, yeah, and it was.
Speaker 1:I was honored and it was an amazing experience.
Speaker 1:But to see how they can take their designs and apply it to people outside their community, whether it's like like for me it was like a thank you, or a gift because I shared how to do fish skin tanning with them and I think a lot of people get nervous or like, oh, like, should you be wearing that, or, and I think there's a lot of learning in that. But I was just thinking it's like well, how can I take my own culture but be able to share that with people outside, my like, with my community, but also how can I apply that onto people outside?
Speaker 1:but I don't know right now it feels daunting because, yeah, I think um, I don't like to use the word territorial, but some people yeah don't want, like I don't want to share or feel scared to share that, or it's like how does it apply outside of our own community, like was it before historically, and so I don't know. I think there's a lot of questions, but I thought it was like a beautiful thing to be able to share it and mark other people's skin but apply our designs in ways that aren't specific to our own people, but be able to share it beyond that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think one of the ways that I've been able to work through that question for myself is actually looking into the museum collections and specifically looking at the basket collections. Right, we look at those baskets and we know the baskets that we would have used ancestrally because the designs are very pragmatic. Yeah, right, there's no rims on the bottom, there's no handles on the top because those would just rip off.
Speaker 2:Yep, just because of use right. And so when I think about that, that is an example for me of what our ancestors did to begin to work through their own experience to evolve that practice right. Well, maybe I don't have to go pick as many berries if I make a basket for a settler or, you know, as a gift. So I'm using those ancestral patterns, I'm using that ancestral technology, but then I'm also selling it right, like there's a picture there's a awesome picture of a basket shop in linton yeah right like.
Speaker 2:And so the those ancestors, uh, those women, you know, wove those baskets to sell to tourists yeah right, and so there's a prime example of our ancestors doing what they needed to do to survive in the world that they lived in. That's true, right, and so for me it's like, okay, well, that's an example, now we can use that in our own lives and say like yo, we did it in the past.
Speaker 2:Why was it okay then and it's not okay now? We still live in a contemporary world that we need to make money to pay rent, to buy groceries in many cases, right, yeah, all of those type of things in the contemporary world. So I'm like you know, those old aunties and grannies did it right so we're just taking the.
Speaker 2:The it's like thanks, yeah, yeah, right, um. And then you also, like, you look at some of those uh baskets and they look like this like a table, like a coffee table that's completely woven out of cedar root, and you're like we never made that for you know, ancestrally, it's just not practical. So it was obviously made to sell yeah right.
Speaker 1:So if they're using that, that's the evolution of the process of us being contemporary people living in a contemporary world and I also find it interesting because I find there's so many overlapping designs in different nations and different cultures and I feel sometimes it can be tough, or at least I'm a little fearful, to like share the things I want to share, because I know, because of colonial history and not being able not all of us grew up with the knowledge and are learning it and to see other people applying it or thinking that that's not the right or like that's mine or it's like well, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just hope that people are open to just being more kind or gentle with one another, and I think it's just referencing also again the time we're living in with social media. It's like, well, I hope, if you don't know me or not, from where I'm from, that you can actually reach out to me and talk to me as a human being, because I think there's a humanity aspect that's lacking when we're upset on social media and want to try and hold someone accountable, but sometimes you're just hurting somebody and so I don't know, it's living in a different world Totally, and I think Sorry to cut you off.
Speaker 1:It's okay. Um, sorry to cut you off.
Speaker 2:It's okay, just uh, just uh, you know uh. What sparked in my mind is why it's so important for us to do so much of our sharing and visiting in person? Yeah Right, because you know, if I'd said something uh mean and hurtful, I could see the pain that I'm causing you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Like I could see the expression on your face. I could see the pain that I'm causing you, yeah Right. Like I could see the expression on your face. I could see the tears. I could see the effect that I'm having on you, but on social media, people don't see that, they don't actually see the damage that they're actually doing to each other, right, and they just think that it's like I don't know what people think.
Speaker 2:They don't think that it's someone on the other side and if you're doing that intentionally, without giving a shit that that's actually another human being.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know. That's really challenging for me because our teachings are about care and compassion and helping to build community Like you don't build community by trashing everybody. You know, so yeah, community like you. Don't build community by trashing everybody yeah you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I just yeah, that's a important to bring forward yeah, because there's a lot of us and there's going to be overlap, I think, in design or in the visual art world. So I think if people are concerned or have questions, it's just to approach it kindly.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the lessons are there, that those overlaps. Part of that is the medium, right, like there's only so many designs that you could do using basketry. Right, because of the medium itself. Using basketry, yeah, right, because of the medium itself. Um, plus, I would also say there's his, there's examples. Uh, sharon fortney from, uh, the museum of vancouver did a good paper where a lot, uh, she brought um basket makers into the museum and they were talking about.
Speaker 2:Oh well, that's actually a statlium basket with the intermuk design, and they were saying that. Well, of course that's because a intermuk woman married into the statlium community yeah so there's overlap there because of intermarriage. There's the sharing of designs. I found in uh james tate's work talking about our basketry, saying that, um, you know, women wouldn't take their friend's dream designs but say, if their daughter or granddaughter used that design, then they would feel okay to use it yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. And then also, or if somebody rolled up and from who didn't know, that person who had the dream design, develop that new design, they'd use it and then their friends would be like okay. Right yeah so there's examples of that being done in you know, uh, in the not so distant past for us, and so, yeah, just remembering all of those things as we move forward is important, right, like those are historic examples of our ancestors doing these things that we seem to find so important to hold on to, but it's like how do we share those things?
Speaker 2:Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazzas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom.
Speaker 2:Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. Dot com. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. So when you think about the work that you do, what is one of your favorite artworks that you've done lately and why is it your favorite?
Speaker 1:oh, um, I'd have to say probably my latest is a short film I did called distance, and I created it last winter. It took me all winter. We shot it at rec beach on Musqueam territory and that's when I did a performance uh, looking out towards the Island, which is where my mom was taken to, and just imagining the distance in time and memory. And it was the first time I ever did all of the editing and sound myself. And it was the first time I used new equipment like a drone with the help of my partner. And it was also the first time I actually inserted myself into the videos. I never would put my own body into it, but then it I just felt it had to be there and I couldn't get someone else to do it. So I don't know, it was a really I don't want to say transformative moment. It was. It was a fun project and it's the first project I ever had that screened in a theater. It through imagine native. So that was a really neat experience to see it on the big screen.
Speaker 1:So like very exposing but, very cool to see what things can become. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So why don't you want to use the word transformative?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'm like, is that too cheesy?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, if that's the way that you feel, I think that's a totally valid response.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I felt like I got really good responses from my family and from people who watched it, because it's not necessarily telling a story, my work, but I'm trying to evoke a feeling, and so if someone can share that feeling or sentiment, then I'm happy with that, or or if they don't feel anything at all, that's okay too, but, um, visually I was like very happy with it what was that?
Speaker 2:um, it just makes me think, because it was. You said it was the first time that you, uh, put yourself your own body within the work. What was that like? And maybe what? What was the choice? What prompted you to make you need to be in there?
Speaker 1:well I felt when I was thinking about what I was going to do and where I was going to do it. I felt just compelled to go in the water and for me it was just like a cleansing thing to do, also very cold, as we did it over the whole entire winter. And at one point I'm laying in the water for a period of time and it like took my breath out of my lungs. But it just reminded me when my grandma said when she was on bctv news, looking for my mom was just like describing what the colonizers did is that they plucked something out of her heart and she felt that she would never get it back and just thinking about what she must have felt, waiting to find her or if she ever would, which isn't always the case. So people also mention like this is like a rare story because my mom happened to be in good health, even though she might not have been in a healthy household, but that we were able to even come back to our home.
Speaker 1:So I don't know that this felt like a successful piece in me thinking about that. So I don't know, it just felt special to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it makes sense, especially when you well, just reflecting on our conversation. Of course, this is my own interpretation of that, but you know the, the impetus or the desire that you've had to move into other types of work. That is highlighting the hopefulness and the joy you uh when you use that word. Uh, it was cleansing right Um that seems like a very suiting uh thing to experience and to share because you know your work has been exploring this for a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it makes sense to me that you know, uh, you would include yourself in there and do that.
Speaker 1:And I think it was also like an act of remembering for me and me performing with the water and the land, because I view, like the land and water, as witness to these events that happen to our people, and also how the land shifts. When these events have happened, it also changes. So just trying to view it as that they're holding me, but also witnessing yeah what is going on?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, because I yeah, because I remember the last scene we filmed. I was a little nervous because there's a lot of um seals in the yeah water and there just happened to be. I was trying to get as far as I could into the water and I think there's about like 50 of them.
Speaker 2:There's a bob in their heads and I was like I'm just I'm doing this one thing, I swear like I won't be here long and they're just like watching.
Speaker 1:But oh, it was like you're just.
Speaker 2:I'm just here to hang out for a minute.
Speaker 1:I'll leave soon, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was two pieces that I thought about which would be interesting to explore, and the first one was the distance, because you shared that with me right after the tattoo session that we had. You shared an example of that work with me.
Speaker 1:And the second one is where you present your grandma's voice with footage of Lillooet Lake yeah, so do you want to explore that with me a little bit yeah, I think that was one of my first like experimenting with video and we had just got or I just got our VHSs that had my family recorded of her on BCTV News, because there's two portions to that series. One was blood ties was when she was calling out looking for her, and the second one was reunion, because they also went back and recorded them coming together and I was just thinking about that and the memories we have with her because she passed a few years ago and so I had this footage I'd been taking up in Mount Curry area where I'd go to Gates Lake, where we'd spend every summer with her, and Lillooet Lake, which was one of the first places her, my mom, went to.
Speaker 1:So it's like a place of reunion. Yeah, and just layering her voice on top of that as a way to like, like, bring out, like her voice into the room, but also connect us back to home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just a different way for me of sharing her voice into the room but also connect us back to home. Yeah, it's just a different way for me of sharing her voice than seeing it on this like news series. Yeah, so it felt like a way of kind of shifting this perspective and sharing that moment in a different way by viewing our territory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, by viewing, yeah, our territory. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, um, we I've done the uh stein traverse and, uh, we usually start at lillooet lake and then hike all the way over the coastals right to lytton. Uh, you know it's 130 kilometer trip, um, but yeah, so that's kind of cool. One of the reasons why I wanted to bring that up because, yeah, I've been out that way and, of course, that was a trade route between us as into Cutmuck and your people yeah right.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of cool that connection there, and, yeah, I just wanted to bring it up, and part of bringing it up was also to share the story which you've already shared about your family, and that was one of the ways that you shared it was through that video. So, yeah, that's cool. Are you looking to see?
Speaker 2:what is he gonna ask me next? Um, one thing that I found uh super cool was you shared in the podcast that I listened to that at some point you were presenting your work and you were using some of your ancestral oral language as titles or description. Titles or description, or you know, I'm not 100% sure how you were using the language, but it as a way of centering your knowledge and understanding and then also as a way of not allowing access to everything was the way that you phrased it. Yeah, so, um, can you explore that with me a little bit?
Speaker 1:oh, it's giving me like flashbacks to something you mentioned earlier about how some people who were like resisting you practicing but now they're like coming back wanting it. That was kind of a similar moment for me, like I had also been sharing, um, some of my high tanning pieces and the group of people I had, um, giving me feedback, weren't too excited about it and didn't understand the practice in general or its cultural ties and therefore kind of disregarding it or, uh, I don't know, just kind of demeaning what I was trying to do. And same with the language. Uh, it was in a woven sculptural piece I had done and in the end I shared what it meant and for them their response was well, it'd be just more meaningful in general if you just translate everything for viewers and have it in English like oh, okay, and kind of funny because a year later over covid, it felt like a lot of sustainable ways or practices were coming out or being promoted or shared more, and so like a year later, all these people who hate high tanning wanted me to share that with their classes or be in their research project and I was like no, thank you. But that's something I've been kind of grappling with throughout my MFA is just uh, that it's my decision on how much access I want to give viewers and it's okay if I don't. But then that's also just asserting the audience that I'm making this for, because I understand that well.
Speaker 1:For me, I think not any art in general is going to be made for everybody. So I feel a little confused sometimes when people are like well, I don't know what that means, therefore, this art isn't for me, and it's like well, it doesn't mean you can't see it or consume it or enjoy it. So I get a little baffled by people of those feelings because, yeah, I think all art isn't made, nothing is made for everybody and I don't think it ever could be. So, yeah, just trying to find confidence and being able to make those decisions on what information I want to share and because I'm also just learning my language. So when people are like, well, what is this word? Then I say, well, I don't know everything and that's okay, and yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:And I would say that I would just encourage you, uh, because I've had that same experience of you know, even like high, uh, administrative people in different positions in academia, who are like, oh well, why are like? Well, you did this research, why aren't you telling us that? And I'm like because it's not for you, and I would just encourage you to tell people yo, this shit ain't for you, this is for my community yeah right, like they strip that language from us. You know now. You know how it feels.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, like, just stand firm in that. What would you even call it? You have a hunch, right, you have a hunch. You have like this is where I need to make a stand and where I need to present this, and I think it's okay to say it's not for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, you're welcome to come look at it. Experience it's okay to say it's not for you. Yeah Right, you're welcome to come look at it, experience it the way you experience it, but you don't have the right to know all of that stuff, just the same as we have our own personal boundaries. Yeah Right, like no, you don't have a right to me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you, don't have the right to look into all of these other things.
Speaker 2:We have boundaries and we say, yes, you can come in, you can have access to me, my love, my care, all of those things, but that's not for everybody yeah so that's the same thing with our artwork or our writing.
Speaker 2:In my case, you know, like yo, you don't get that. You can, I'll share my experience of what I went through when I had those conversations, but maybe you don't get those conversations. I'll tell you that they happened and that how it transformed me, but you don't get to hear them because they're not for you. Just the same as you know, medicine. People have their own teachings.
Speaker 2:You know, story keepers have their own teachings and we don't have access to those yeah right and so, yeah, just stand firm in that and just like yo okay, I will you know yeah because it's a good hunch right it's an important thing that you're exploring and going. Hmm, how do I do this? Because the reality is uh, that's one of the things that I look at when you read academic texts, right Like they're using language that isn't accessible.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's one of the main arguments for us as, uh, indigenous academics is like yo, like y'all wrote about us, but it wasn't for us, it was for you, because we don't know all those big words, right. So if wasn't for us, it was for you, because we don't know all those big words, right. So if I have to translate everything, why the fuck aren't you translating everything? Like, why are you using these big, long syllable words that, like, maybe a tiny percent of a percent of people in the world understand?
Speaker 2:yeah, right so, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:I would just encourage you to stand in that and, you know, continue to have that courage to push back yeah, yeah, I think that's something that many emerging artists well, at least for me and the ones that I've been in contact with yeah, can't be scared to assert yourself and it can. It can feel daunting and I also find it confusing that people think that they can just demand access or ask sometimes, and just gotta get used to it. Yeah, yeah, you don't have the right to everything, yeah that's the reality.
Speaker 2:It's just the same as people come up and like pull up your shirt and go oh, what's that? What?
Speaker 1:does that?
Speaker 2:mean it's like, well, you know, uh, it's not for you. And the thing that uh, my friend, uh, holly Nordlund, says, you know, people will come up sometimes and ask her what her, uh, her chin markings mean and she says, well, it means everything to me and nothing to you, right? Like this is everything to me and I don't know that I could even explain what it?
Speaker 2:means to you right and sometimes we need to stand in that. So on your socials you share a lot about Indigenous resistance, protest and issues. So how do these things or influences show up in your skin marking practice and do they?
Speaker 1:I feel like almost just being able to practice it and apply my own identity into it. Indigenous identity is like a form of resistance.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or me being able to practice high tanning, although it's no longer like I'm not doing it as like a form of survival, like I don't need to, but just like a form of resurgence, and be able to practice what they did and share that. I feel just being able to do that now is a form of resistance. Yeah, and just being able to share that, whether on social media, just again, is like asserting yeah our presence and that they can't take that away anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so now I'm forgetting what the initial question was. It's all good, I think you got it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think that. And yeah, when I ask questions, I always tell people it's like what sparks, right, right. Yeah, it doesn't have to always completely answer the question, whatever sparks in your mind and comes forward is what is meant to be said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I guess because I do share a lot of like protests and forms of resistance on my social media and a lot of that comes from my community and my my grandma was a plan defender for a long time and I also wanted to follow in her footsteps and I may not be able to go out and lead a protest necessarily, but I can do it in my own way, which is like through my visual practice and what I hope will be a big future and skin marking. So yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool. So you know, as I said in our kind of initial email conversation is also, this is also a conversation. So so, and you're, you know, just starting to come into this work, so I just wanted to provide an opportunity for you to ask any questions or explore any thoughts that you've had around the work.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess I was just curious like for you, like what really got you to push forward and doing that research and to start that practice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's actually a very foundational question that I take from primarily the teaching of Dr Jeanette Armstrong, who's a SEAL, or Okanagan knowledge keeper and professor at UBC Okanagan, and she shares the story of the four food chiefs, and it's simply a question that I take. That, I think that the creator asks all of us is what will you do for the people to be Right? And so that question sat on my heart for a really long time and then, uh, one of my young friends decided that, uh, he didn't want to be with us in this plane of existence anymore and he uh took his own life. And then I started to do research about what the revival of ancestral skin marking was doing in New Zealand.
Speaker 2:You know what was the response? How were the people feeling? One of the quotes that comes to mind in reading that academic work was our identity, is our power? Right, and so power in that truest sense of what power is not in the sense of like authority, like, I have authority over you because I can force you to do something, but I don't necessarily think that that's power in the same way that, uh, a a dam could stop a river for a certain amount of time and then eventually the power of the river is going to take that dam down yeah
Speaker 2:right, and so that's the power of our identity. Is that the more that we can, uh, bring ourselves forward? You know? So I had this hunch. I suppose is what I'm trying to say is I had this hunch that the receiving of ancestral marks helped us, as indigenous people, to look down and see who we're related to.
Speaker 2:You know, like uh l frank manriquez manriquez says that, uh, when they received their remarks that it was like they were reaching across time and holding hands with their aunties, their grandmas who are long past and feeling that power and that connection with those who had been erased through colonialism and holding that power, and so I had this hunch that it was a way to answer the question of keeping our people here for as long as we could keep them here right and so, as I've continued that work, there have been studies that have been coming out about some of the protective factors is what they call them protective factors against suicide right, and one of them is, uh, having a strong sense of identity and seeing that your people are strong and powerful and beautiful yeah
Speaker 2:right. So when you look out and you see that your people are strong and powerful and beautiful, yeah Right. So when you look out and you see your people being called savages and they're stupid and they're lazy and they're alcoholics and they're all of these things, of course you're like, well, why would I want to be that, right? And so you don't have a sense of, well, where do I go in the future? Future? And so for me to answer your question in that roundabout way is that I knew that helping people to be firm in who they are, in their indigeneity, in their Inklikotmanukness, in their.
Speaker 2:Cree-ness in their, you know, mohawk-ness was a way of keeping our people here for as long as we can, and I always say it's like they're here for one day, you know, one hour, one minute or one second longer. When they look at that marking, doing that work is worth it, right? And so it's my answer to the creator's question of what will you do for the people to be?
Speaker 2:And I knew that all of the ridicule, all of those people who were, you know, pushing back, you know providing resistance, that it was worth saving even one youth, you know keeping them here for another minute was worth all of that ridicule and so that is the driving factor that I have, and I would say that's even the driving factor for doing this podcast, because we just need to highlight more of our people who are doing awesome shit yeah right, like whether that's with skin marking, whether that's with um creating, uh, beautiful artworks, whether that's academics whatever that is, um we need to highlight more so that the youth can look out and go oh, I want to be like sydney yeah right.
Speaker 2:You know that is where that power comes from, because those role models are so important for people to see you standing in your power yeah, this. This is our language. Deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like going through my MFA. I'm consistently asked the question what does your work do?
Speaker 2:And although it's such like a foundational question.
Speaker 1:But yeah, essentially for me, whether I'm sharing the new skills I'm learning or sharing a piece, I just want other Indigenous folk who have been in the same situations or who are looking for connection just to feel seen though it you hear that there are other people.
Speaker 2:It can be a lonely place sometimes and just yeah, to share these things, to create these connections and find happiness and joy in what we do yeah, yeah, for sure, um yeah, and stepping forward and, uh, being vulnerable and visible, right and saying like it's okay, but yeah you know, and I always say to people like it's not your fault, it's not your fault that you feel that way and we're here to support you and care for you.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um yeah, that's an awesome question. Thank you, anything else, come up for you.
Speaker 1:Um, I may have asked you this when come up for you. Um, I may have asked you this when um on the east coast, but how did you decide, or learn, to apply your designs onto bodies that might be not be from your community?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's a good question because, uh, it really I probably mirrors your own experience, you know, as coming in. You know, when I first started out I was just fucking excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I always say that like my head just about popped off when I realized that we had this powerful tattooing tradition.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, and I was just like, fuck, I'm just going to, like my friend, mark Kapuya, who is a Maori. He says that him and Derek Lardelli talked about in the beginning of that first wave of the revival of Maori tattooing. They came up with this phrase, which was Moko the world, you know, like tattoo the world. And so for me it was just like like, yes, I have to do that, right.
Speaker 2:Um, and then, as that continued to happen, I would do, uh, marks that were quote unquote, quote, traditional or ancestral marks that our ancestors would have worn, specific placements, yeah, and it was like I think there is something really powerful about reserving some of those things for just us. Yeah, right, and so I did those marks at that time. And then I started to think, well, how can I the same question that you're asking in your own practice, how do I share these marks with people that are non-Inklaqamuk, non-indigenous? I share these marks with people that are non-Inklaqamuk, non-indigenous, and part of that is my answer to the question of cultural appropriation is that I have the rights, relationship and responsibility to those designs, so I'm able to do it, and I'm just going to wait for the cop car to go by.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a good question. There it goes, and so, yeah, the that rights, relationship and responsibility is so important for you to, for us to understand that we have a right to do these things, but we also have a responsibility with those markings. And so I started to think, well, if we reserved some of those smaller patterns that our ancestors would have done, you know, in those traditional placements, then, uh, I could roll out and I'd be like, oh, like, where are those marks from?
Speaker 2:I know those marks and maybe say okay, well, I'm so-and-so, this is my family. Blah, blah, blah right and so, then, I decided to create into the cut with black work, as an answer to that question of, uh, creating these patterns, of these design symbols, motifs which are inspired by our ancestral visual language, but blowing them up to a place where we never tattooed that big because of course, to do a full body suit, hand poke or skin- stitch, it's going to take a really long time, so it just wasn't pragmatic, right, and so for me it was okay.
Speaker 2:Let's blow these up so that you, when you look at it, you could know that those are interior salish or intercom patterns, but you would know that that's not necessarily traditional.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, and so, for me, it was like this journey of exploration of, like, how do I articulate and how do I walk in that responsibility that I have associated with the rights of that ancestral visual language which is my inheritance, yeah, right, and so, yeah, it's a very important question. I think that we each have our own journey to travel with figuring out how do we do that for ourselves right um, but hopefully you know the journey that I've taken can help in that journey of others yeah, yeah for sure, yeah, have you?
Speaker 1:or like do you have future plans to mentor people?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, you know, I was talking with heather, uh, and heather, you know, tattoos people at her own house, right, and so she was sharing how sometimes that's a little difficult because you're bringing people into your space yeah and then I was also exploring some of the answers that I had for that question, which was like Heather sells stuff at markets, and so I was like yo, if you want to get tattooed by Heather, go out to the market and buy some of her stuff, right, because then you're building that relationship and then you're no longer a stranger yeah and so that's what I would also suggest too, is like, if you want a mentorship with somebody, or help them to understand who you are as an individual, yeah, because the reality is is that we're not all meant to work together because our personalities clash, and that's not, that's no, no one's fault at all it's just that, you know, uh, it just doesn't work, so go uh, get tattooed by somebody that you
Speaker 2:want to, you know, be mentored by uh. Spend time with that person you know, invest in them so that they know that you're the type of person that they want to invest in yeah because mentoring someone isn't, uh, very simple right, it's a long process, yeah it's a big investment in turn, because I always tell all the people that I've mentored, like yo, you can give me a shout at any time of the day and if I'm awake and by my phone, I'll answer yeah right, and so I do.
Speaker 2:I have people that are like, oh, I'm rolling into this face tattoo and it's just not lining up properly, right, and so I can walk people through. Well, here are some of the things that I might do if I was in that situation. Here's some suggestions. Or oh, this is happening and I'm not sure what's you know like. They'll send me a picture and I'll be like oh well, you know, just change out your needle, etc. Etc right so it's not just I'm done, go do your thing.
Speaker 2:That is a journey, and so I've just had one of my collaborators for the intercom of black work. You know, we've spent what you know 20 or 30 hours on their back piece.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they've asked me to mentor them and I've agreed, just because I know how they roll Right and so I would just say when people want to get mentored, just spend time with that person. Find a way to share your personality, to understand how, if you all mesh, yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yes, I'm always mentoring. You know, I'm just finishing a mentorship with Mel Lefebvre, a Métis artist from Montreal who lives in Montreal. So you know again that mentorship will continue. But you know, I think they have all of the skills and they're moving forward in the work that they're doing in their Two-Spirit community. And so, yeah, I'm always down to mentor. It just depends my time and capacity, and it also depends on who that person is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe this is a silly question, but if there was no like funding constraints or any barriers like, what would you want to see happen like in the future?
Speaker 2:Or do. My dream has actually always been, when I've begun this work, that there is at least one to three cultural practitioners or ancestral skin markers in every single community.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so that's always been my dream to have that happen, and that's why I mentor, and that's why I train, and that's why I started the Earthline Tattoo Collective us to also, you know, manage and implement. And yeah, I think it would be dope to have a shop that a tattoo shop, you know, ancestral skin marking studio that you know regularly trains indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, because I think we need more tattoo artists, people that don't do ancestral work, so to speak. You know people who just do black and gray or color, or you know american traditional right, like all that stuff, so that you know, when we roll up to conventions, it's not just us, you know it's not just me by myself.
Speaker 2:You know, uh, sometimes I'll run into some folks, but yeah, so, training uh people in the industry of tattooing as a business and then also uh ensuring that people don't have to come to me to get their marks, especially if they're not in the comic. Yeah, right, and people to have access to that, because I just don't have the ability to tattoo everyone and, uh, neither do, neither do any of us right, we just need to continue to share that so if there was no constraints.
Speaker 2:It'd be a big ass shop with hella tattoo artists and cultural tattoo practitioners and having friends from New Zealand come over from Samoa, from Hawaii and doing hand tapping, you know, doing all that stuff, because so many people want the work, uh, and they come to you and they're or to me and they're like, hey, I want to do this Samoan sleeve, and I I'm like sorry, homie, that's not mine.
Speaker 2:I can't give that to you. You're not Samoan. I've had even some folks who are from Polynesia and I'm just like I don't know. I just don't know what the rules are and I don't want to put a marking on you. That doesn't fit there, but I'm down to do it from my own community.
Speaker 2:That's why I created Intercept McBlackwork, right, so I can give you a tattoo. But it won't be that because it's not mine to give, right. So, yeah, it'd just be a big ass shop with lots of folks in it and you never know like even turning it into some type of a more traditional school, so that you know people roll up and take part of that as their art degree Right, like, of course, indigenous artists coming through learning how to do designs from their own community, researching it. You know, take all of those steps that I developed in the Earthline Tattoo Training Residency, but applying it to a bigger degree, and you know there's an example of that in New Zealand. You know they have a school.
Speaker 2:That's similar to that. You know, printmaking, carving, all of that stuff, and one of the things is moco right.
Speaker 1:And so I'd be like something like that would be dope, but I don't want to do the administration stuff anything else yeah, it's hard because I feel all our people are super taxed yes, so but also the work is important and it's like like that dream you have, it's like I'd love to have a space out in mount curry where it could just be like a full-time residency, where we're like exchanging skills all the time and that those skills are valid and worth, like you can make a living off that and I know many people say so many people our community should just be handed degrees for the amount of knowledge they have and not have to go through these Western institutional steps to get what someone else thinks is valuable.
Speaker 1:And so I don't know. It's just like how do we keep building our own educational spaces? That yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the way that we do that is to continue to ask those questions, right?
Speaker 2:uh, it takes a long time, for sure, but yeah, I think asking those questions I mean that is the most important part, because you know, uh, that old saying that says that life happens when we make other plans, right? So if we ask that question and that's the thing that I've actually come to understand is that sometimes I would have a dream about something that I wanted to happen with the practice, but then I realized that that dream wasn't necessarily for me, it was actually a dream for someone else. And so one of the people that I've mentored, one of my students, has picked up that dream and started to run with it. Yeah, right, and so that's the power of dreaming out loud and asking important questions. Is that maybe we infect somebody else with that dream? Maybe infect is not the right word we share that dream with somebody else and they pick it up and they start to run with it, right?
Speaker 2:maybe they have the capacity and the skills throughout their life's journey that brought them to be able to do that yeah right, and so that's why I say asking that question is the way that we do. That is because we share those things like yo. This is my dream. Uh, well, maybe that dream wasn't meant for you, but you were meant to share it so somebody else can pick it up and run with it yeah, yeah, thanks, you articulated much better no, I think you know all of those things.
Speaker 2:Are they? Just they are, you know, floating around in our consciousness, because they're important questions. You know, those are ancestral dew droplets on our brains. Right for us to go like ah, okay yeah so, uh, yeah, I just appreciate you taking the time to come and have a chat with me. Um, I hope, uh, it wasn't too nerve-wracking no thanks for having me I'll be excited to follow up with you in a couple years and see where you're at yeah, for sure thank you thank you hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me, uh, through this episode.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, uh, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you. Uh, following this journey, I just want you to remember that, uh, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that, uh, you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head on over to next week's episode, where I talk to Alison Cuffley, a collaborator in my Intercom Blackwork project, and in this episode, we talk about Alison's experience of receiving an Intercom Blackwork sleeve. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.