Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Moko and Meaning: The Emotional and Cultural Significance of Maori Tattoos with Danny Lurman
#036 Discover the rich, transformative world of moko artistry with us as we sit down with a remarkable Maori practitioner, Danny Lurman. Journey with us through his evolution from a child passionate about drawing, to navigating the mainstream tattoo scene, and finally returning to the embrace of traditional moko and carving practices. Listen to his candid recounting of early anxieties and how they evolved into a therapeutic, gentle practice centered on traditional protocols, patterns, and meanings. Our guest also emphasizes the critical role of formal education and its impact on building credibility within the Maori community.
Experience the creative challenges and inspirations behind transitioning traditional Maori carving into moko tattoo art. Our guest delves into the process of incorporating elements from local landscapes, like subterranean rock patterns, into moko, and shares his deeply personal and emotional journey of receiving facial moko—a practice in honour of his grandmother, signifying a revival of ancestral traditions. Hear about the powerful cultural significance and the emotional weight carried by these traditional markings, and how they bridge the past with the present.
Engage with thought-provoking discussions on honoring ancestral contributions, overcoming feelings of inadequacy tied to cultural heritage, and the pervasive impacts of colonialism. We shed light on the geographical and climatic influences on culture and language, and the importance of community guardianship in preserving traditions. Wrapping up with a reminder of the power of unity and community, we highlight the upcoming episode with Nathaniel Hartley, an inclusive tattoo artist serving the LGBTQ community. Join us for an episode rich with wisdom, personal stories, and cultural insights that promise to inspire and enlighten.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
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https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
So the very first lines that were cut into the top of my head here were done with the uhi and tapped in, and I remember lying there and just all this anxiety and wondering what that was going to feel like, because there's no how-to manual on tapping on someone's head, and so I just remember watching the uhi come over and to make the first cuts and yeah, it was real therapeutic, really gentle.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikap professional tattoo artist and ancestral by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:So I come from the west coast of the North Island of New Zealand and from the tribes of Maniapoto and Torangatira of the Maori people.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So you know the place obviously to start is you know how did you get into the work of moko and doing that type of stuff? You know what was the journey that brought you to the point of me?
Speaker 1:talking to you now. Yeah, the journey actually started, wow, from when I was a kid, just naturally drawing when I was growing up as a child. Back then, the arts weren't seen as what they were today. Everyone would go and get a normal job and things like that. The arts were seen as a hobby or a pastime. So, taking my elders' advice, I did that. I went and got a normal job and I was living overseas at the time and I started in mainstream tattooing, probably 2008, and just in my own private studio, working from home, and I never touched moko because I knew that there was a certain process that needed to take place and because I was living overseas, I didn't see it okay to be. Well, it was hard. There was no resources overseas at that time. So when I made my way back to New Zealand in 2014, there was kind of a need for me to jump into the deep end and just go. Jump into the deep end and just go. I actually got a phone call from one of my uncles who wanted me to enroll on a protocols course to fill a different need within our people, and then he had remembered a conversation five years prior when I was back for a holiday and I said I want to get into for a holiday and I said I want to get into, I want to get into the arts, but I know I need to come home in order to do that, um. So, with that conversation being said, um, he said, okay, um, I'll have someone at your house the next morning, um, and we'll get the paperwork sorted for um.
Speaker 1:Going into the beginnings of carving, which, in my opinion, sets the foundation of moko, because you've got a solid foundation within the patterns, the meanings behind things, the stories that are passed down. So that started that journey, stories that have passed down. So that started that journey. So I spent seven years making my way from the entry-level certificate right through diploma and then into a three-year degree, so graduating in 2020 with a degree in Maori visual arts through carving.
Speaker 1:But in saying that you don't need a degree to say you can carve. But it just helps when you're dealing with the public and corporate people that there's some sort of a safety that you're getting someone that has done his time learning. On the moko side of things, I'm only new to the moko space and it's kind of been for the last three or four years, but it's a slow journey. Where I live it's quite isolated, so it's just taking my time. Being in spaces such as Toikiri and also other wānanga that we have around the country sets a solid foundation and a deeper understanding on what it means to be a practicing moko artist, for which, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago wasn't available like it is now, and that's just to keep the revitalization of our traditional moko to be flourishing for our generations to come. Yeah, so that's how I got into it wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:Eh, yeah, kind of slowly yeah slowly working your way in yeah, slowly starting to uh pick up those little bits and pieces that you need to do the work for the people yeah, yeah, definitely yeah, and there's only, there's only maybe, oh, a handful of us that are that are practicing yeah and where we live it's quite isolated and so a lot that do want to get into into any of the arts they kind of move away from where their home base because there's not much people where we are. Yeah, yeah, or they travel overseas, oh wow.
Speaker 2:Crazy when you think about. You know you mentioned a little bit about the carving being the foundation of you know the symbols, designs, all of that type of stuff. You know, when you think about that, you know how does that transfer over? Partly because you know I'm kind of ignorant of you guys' stuff. And you know, not asking you to be an expert, but from your own experience and your own understanding. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah definitely, but from your own experience and your own understanding? Yeah, definitely, this is, but my opinion and I am no expert in both fields. I'm just speaking from my own experience and opinion. But within moko, the market's so saturated saturated a lot of people are doing it and I've found that a lot of the work, depending on where you are, is quite similar. So for me, that's just starting out and, with a foundation in carving, I'm seeing that as a way that I can transition carving into moko. We kind of take different elements of our other what is it? What do you call it? Toi Māori, such as weaving, kowhaiwhai, painting, painting, and in the last few years, carving motifs have started to come into the work. So, with that being said, trying to do it in a way that it does justice to a carving from a carving perspective, instead of being quite flat so yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's yeah, um. So yeah, I think it's more trying to and I think it's easier said than done. But basically turning things 3d, yeah, um, because when you look at, look at our patterns, when they're carved, there's multi dimensions to the designs, how that translates through to skin, kind of. I haven't seen it in a way that I'm trying to figure out how to do it. Yeah, um, I think people may have done it in the past and it may not have worked out. I was talking to joe and joe was saying that he's seen it done, but done, I suppose, not in a way that it's quite flat oh yeah, yeah, and he actually encouraged me to just keep pushing through and just map it out and see how it goes.
Speaker 1:It may not come to anything, but just giving it a try.
Speaker 2:Worth a shot, just being different yeah.
Speaker 1:I think, because where I come from, it's a real unique subterranean landscape and from the beginning, our people drew on their natural environment and that's where a lot of our patterns and curvilinear came from. Yeah, so for me, I'm utilizing the subterranean landscape of the underground and rocks and things like that, yeah, which most book was either straight lines with the, with the curve, linear, kōru and things like that, whereas the stuff that I'm looking at doing is, yeah, probably wouldn't be seen. Yeah, because it's all, um, wiggly stuff. Yeah, oh, pretty much like, oh, yeah, these sorts of things, yeah, yeah, but that was the start of a rock pattern, um, but, yeah, just utilizing the natural environment which is unique to our area.
Speaker 2:To your area, yeah, yeah, cool. One thing I think is also, of course, important for those folks that are watching the video you have your face marked, and so what was that journey to getting your face marked?
Speaker 1:Well, that journey goes back to I might have been five years old and my grandmother. At the time I was raised by my grandmother and she placed a photo in our lounge of our family homestead of my grandfather seven generations prior and he had his face done. It looked very European and I just had said to my nan oh, one day I'll look like Grandad, eh, nan? And she just smiled and said, oh, maybe, but back then it was not seen and it was kind of like a future down the line maybe, sort of thing, because it just wasn't at that time. It wasn't seen. Um, and I left it for about probably 15, 15, 20 years, like kind of. But there was always that desire, even more so when I went overseas and then returning home. Yeah, the feeling you get in the stomach is like a burning desire to wear facial moko, what we term as mataora, so the living face. That basically got stronger and stronger and I started having the conversation with my nan at the time around what that might look like and she came from a time where the only people you've seen with facial tattoos were on the old museum paintings and things like that and that's kind of what the majority of us seen and they were done. The images were of old people and, without realizing that, you know, that's when they were painted. Yeah, they had their markings from a young age.
Speaker 1:So in 2017, I started. It was the last conversation I had with my grandmother before she passed. I wanted to get her blessing before I went any further, blessing, um, before I went any further, and at that time, she had basically said um, just um. Maybe it wasn't. It wasn't a yes, but it wasn't a no. What that meant was that I was still on my journey, um, and needed to learn a few things and, uh, do a bit more, not so much research, but contributing to my people. So, three years after she passed, in 2017, was that 2020, I was just about to graduate my bachelor's degree in carving. At that particular time, I was tasked with restoring our local marae.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how that all coincided on the third anniversary of her passing was when I received my markings. And how that come about was that in the old days, there was a practice which was known as kiri hae, hae, kiri skin hae hae to lacerate. So when our people were laying in state, their loved ones would grab a obsidian or shell or something like that and they would lacerate their skin as a form of mourning. So for me, when I got done, that was my form of my mourning, for not only my nan but the female figure in my life that brought me up, allowing her to go my family. So my nan's dad. He was a Medicine man Within my family and he was of the belief that you didn't need markings to say who you were. You knew who you were Just being through kinship and things like that. So, and my family were quite from a Western perspective of, oh no, you know, you leave those things alone. So it took them a while to get around to the fact that. Oh, I'm also kind of weary because it hadn't been seen in my area for 200 years, just being mindful that, oh, how is this young guy going to be received.
Speaker 1:And so the day come around where I basically had committed to receiving my markings committed to receiving my markings I had all my family around and the process took place with karakia and speeches, much like on a marae, and at that particular time it was right in between Covid and there was a gap between where we were kind of let out of lockdown and stuff. There was a gap between where we were kind of let out of lockdown and stuff. So there's a tiny window which the uncle that did my face was able to do it. So we just did it at home small group of family and things like that and because of the significance of what was taking place, some of my family that are in the media industry wanted to record it because it hadn't been done for so long. So, yeah, that's kind of how that came about. All I had said to the uncle was yeah, I wanted to get my face done. I'll leave everything up to you. Yeah, whatever comes comes.
Speaker 1:So he had asked me you know, do you want it done with the machine or do you want it done with uhi?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I said, being a carver, I thought it would be nice to have a mix of the two. Yeah, I said, being a carver, I thought it would be nice to have a mix of the two. So the very first lines that were cut into the top of my head here were done with the uhi and tapped in. And I remember lying there and just all this anxiety and what do you call it, wondering what that was going to feel like, because there's no how-to manual on tapping on someone's head, and so I just remember watching the uhi come over and to make the first cuts and yeah, it was real therapeutic, really gentle. But once that those initial markings, I just was in the zone in that space where you need to be, and so he had started on my teeth. Under here and into the middle piece was the first part to be done and then, because the uhi is such a slow process, we'd said, oh well, we'll just go to the machine so it doesn't take so long. So I think five hours in total, just straight.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he'd done it in a way where he wasn't in one certain spot for too long. Yeah, yeah, and the biggest thing was kind of trying to anticipate where the sore spots were going to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was quite interesting, those spots where I thought would have been spicy weren't.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, it's because you prepared for it, maybe, yeah definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I had to put myself into a spot where, in order to go through the process, a lot of prayers and karakia and just almost a state of meditation, yeah, yeah, you know I have read before and I think we had a bit of a chat about it earlier is that once your face was marked, there were more expectations put on you culturally. When you show up in a space, regardless of your connection genealogical connection to that place, you're asked to step forward. So could you talk a little bit about that experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that actually happened last year as well. I turned up to our event and usually people that are hosting events have speakers and someone that can actually help bring someone on if there isn't any. But as soon as I turned up the day, we were being welcomed onto the marae. I just happened to see two of my mates and as soon as they seen me, they're like, because we were in Wananga together throughout the year and I speak in that space as well, that's kind of become oh yeah, danny's here, cool, we don't have to worry about trying to do it. And I was actually hoping for Julie's to turn up. But yeah, it's just a matter of stepping up into that space to uphold the protocols and the customs, not just for the space that we're in, because when I've come over to the other side of the country, I'm not in my own home tribe, I'm coming to a different tribe in my own home tribe.
Speaker 1:I'm coming to a different tribe. Usually the way I've kind of been raised is that you don't, and I'm still learning as well, so that's kind of another weight on top of it. But it's just a matter of stepping up and doing the work that needs to be done to uphold those protocols. But yeah, it can be very daunting, but it would have been worse if I didn't. Yeah, Because of yeah. So there's that expectation and responsibility that we have and it can sometimes have the adverse effect if you say oh, no, no, no, yeah. So, although daunting I was having a chat with Dan about it and they've all kind of had their turn over the years to do it it's a matter of doing it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I mean it's cool, it's nice that you're able to step forward and do that work and uphold those protocols, and I guess that's a good way to frame it. You know, I never thought about it that way. It's like even though you're in a space that you aren't genealogically connected to, you're still connected to those protocols, and so the responsibility is to the protocols.
Speaker 1:And you know, if you're asked, you know you step into that place.
Speaker 2:Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazzas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording Season 2. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:A lot of it comes with having mata ora. There's kind of an expectation that one that wears mata ora or kauoi, that person must have the language and be able to speak, which is a lot of I've found talking with people. A lot of people have that expectation that, oh, I don't have the language and things like that. And I was very much like that before I got my face done. Was that, oh, am I good enough? I'm still learning the language and all these sorts of things go on.
Speaker 1:But what it boils down to is you are enough yeah at the end of the day, yeah, I'm not going to say it's a birthright and all that sort of stuff, but, um, it's a an acknowledgement to the contribution, um, that an individual has to their family, to their sub-tribe, to their tribe. Yeah, for our people, and yeah, it's a matter of just stepping up.
Speaker 2:Well, and I would say, you know it's important to also acknowledge that. You know that feeling of not being enough, that really was, that is really a byproduct of the colonial project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely Right.
Speaker 2:And that's not only I would say not only for us as Indigenous people. Where we are, we've been targeted to erase our identities.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Right. So that's part of it. But I would also say, like I would argue, just in the regular society, everyone is almost felt like, pushed to have that feeling of not being enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I would say part of that is like a way that the that project you know, makes us feel insecure, makes us feel not enough, Yep, and so we go buy shit to make ourselves feel better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and a good point. When I was just before I had gotten my matoora and I'd spoken with an uncle of mine who was making his way down to the event and kind of asking you know how you feel about what's going to take place, I said well, kind of anxious, but I'm going to go. Why? He said, well, I don't have, I'm still learning the language and things like that. And the way he put it to me was that you might not know the language what we call awa, or being able to speak the language but you speak a different language and one of our most ancient languages through the art of carving and things like that. Yeah. So, as we said, if even anybody challenges, you, challenge them to do what you do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's even down to the symbology that's placed within my matoora. We could never compare ourselves to those old paintings and things like that, because it's a different time, different space, and so I feel like you kind of adapt to the space you're in now and it's still an acknowledgement in whatever shape or form that's then marked and it's a what do you call it? It's a lifelong journey as, as the more contribution and the learnings that I do. It will slowly add on. Yeah, and it's long, it's. It's your friend for life. You grow old with it. You die with it.
Speaker 2:Long after you're in the ground, it's still with you, yeah and I would say that's also an important thing to highlight and bring forward is sometimes we try to do everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And we only have a certain amount of time. And you know one thing when I think about you know our ancestors, that was the language they spoke yeah, right, yeah, whereas now we're trying to relearn a language that has been depressed and suppressed I suppose, and also, you know, sometimes, like I think of myself, I really want to learn our language. But then it's also like how much time do I have? What are some of the other gifts that I have that I can speak, that visual?
Speaker 1:language.
Speaker 2:Right. So just being very pragmatic and practical in that experience of honoring the gifts that I have, the opportunities that I have, and going full in on that, yeah, right. And also, I would say, part of it is also understanding that you know we have to be able to not, you know, we have to be able to uh, not only speak our own languages but also have a clear enough understanding of the english language to speak into reality from that place, in that space. Right. So understanding, taking the time to understand, to communicate in a very clear way in english yep, even though that's not our ancestral language, being able to maybe argue it, because if we don't understand that, we can't argue it in some ways in short shapes, but, yeah, just important to honor where people are at, because I think we try to do everything and sometimes it just burns us right out.
Speaker 2:Definitely, yeah, try to do everything and sometimes it just burns us right out.
Speaker 1:I remember one of my uncles saying it's better to be good or perfect one part instead of trying to be an all rounder. Allow other people to step into those spaces. Same thing as when we're carving and things like that Might carve a house or a certain whatever it may be. In my experience, I won't then talk about what's being done. I'll leave it up to those that know how to speak, just to do that done.
Speaker 1:I'll leave it up to those that know how to speak to do that. From my perspective and my teachings, to speak about the stuff that you've just done is seen as what do you call it? Egotistical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:So, yep, you've done your job, that's your job done. Allow others to do it. Yeah, big time. So, yep, you've done your job, that's your job done, allow others to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time, speak about what you've done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would also say just a thought came to mind is like also understanding where we're at in that movement to totally reinvigorating our communities and our cultures is you know we have those young ones that are learning how to speak, and it's like they're learning english and our languages at the same time yeah so it's really, you know, putting in the work to ensure that when they get here, yeah, that they have the language already, yeah, and so now they can pick which one of the gifts then that they want to pick up, whether that's uh, moco, whether that's carving, yeah, whether that's you know any other, the painting or whatever it may be, the weaving, yep, all of that type of stuff or another endeavor. Well, you know, because we do need lawyers, we do need we do need uh doctors and all those type of things.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, it's so interesting. Just, you know, uh, I think we have to have what would you? It has to come back, but just having the patience to know that it will work out, as long as we put in the work today yeah, definitely and then the next generation will put in the work that they need to do, etc.
Speaker 1:Etc yeah lifting us back up yep over time and we didn't get here overnight no, and that's uh. One thing I kind of think about is that we're guardians of our particular practices for our time. Yeah, and what we do now helps set the platform for those generations to come, whilst also acknowledging those generations that have gone before us. And I was talking with Echo last night. We were both on the same page around you. Look to the past to know where you're going.
Speaker 2:Walking backwards into the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as weird as that might seem to people, but it is that and a lady that spoke to me quite a few years ago around, and it was the first time I'd heard it and it was around. It takes seven generations to lose something, six generations to completely lose it and within the seventh it returns in whatever shape or form. Lose it and within the seventh it returns. Yeah, in whatever shape or form, yeah, yeah, and so I resonated with that completely. Um, because it was. It's kind of exactly what has happened in my journey. Um, the last person within my family to wear full facial moko was seven generations ago. Wow, uh, yeah, or six, sorry, six generations. Yeah, I'm the seventh to bring and bring it back. Yeah, wow, so that's kind of lucky seven yeah, yeah yeah yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, when you think about, when I think about this, um, you know, because you're just kind of starting in your Moko journey, what has been your experience or what has the impact of being at Tuikiri and the Wondangas that you've been at, you know what has been the impact and the importance for your journey as a practitioner, in coming into these spaces as a practitioner in coming into these spaces From the get-go.
Speaker 1:When I came to the one to the Toikete last year I had come just as a carving practitioner and things like that and that added a whole different element to the space here in the tap of the mallet and on wooden element to the space here in the tap of the mallet on wooden. But I remember leaving last year saying I'll be back next year in a booth just putting it out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And right up until the week before we started the event, I wasn't actually coming because I was busy with other work, but it just all flowed. Yeah, but it just all flowed. Yeah, but yeah, it has been kind of challenging within my own peers and things like that. Yeah, just being mindful that it's still learning. Yeah, and I've said that from the get-go I'm still learning.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Although I've been kind of in mainstream and stuff like that, they're completely different. Yeah, big time You've pretty much got to unlearn, to learn, especially within our particular style of work, but I find these spaces really great, being able to speak with the likes of yourself. These spaces really great being able to speak with the likes of yourself and all of our indigenous family that has come over and then meeting up with all of our own that are home. It's an awesome space to conversate and being supportive, whereas I feel it wasn't so long ago that it was closed doors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so now it's a lot more open, but it's been mindful.
Speaker 1:It wasn't so long ago that it was closed doors. Yeah, yeah, and so now it's a lot more open. Yeah, but it's being mindful that, because it's quite easy just to jump in and just make a mess.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And in saying that, that can pretty much stuff things up. So, being mindful of that, yeah, I was fully booked prior to coming over and stuck with my own people that were allowing me to acknowledge my journey and support my journey, and it was really gaining exposure into that space, experiencing that space. Yeah, and not being scared.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not being scared to. You know, not so much make a mistake, but saying oh no, I won't go there, I'll just stay home. Yeah, no, go. And what it's done is pushed me further, even more, to carry on doing what I'm doing. Even talking with Joe, because we go to Wānanga together and that's a more formal learning space, but it's all learning.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And for us, we're forever learning, evolving, yeah, but it's doing it in a way that it's safe and acknowledging those that have been in the industry for many years and kind of done their time.
Speaker 2:So it's just slowly making those steps ever closer to that space. Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that and I, you know, I think I would commend you and lift you up, for you know stepping into that space and you know not being intimidated or not allowing that.
Speaker 1:You know that feeling to overwhelm you and keep you from coming here, so I thank you for coming in and for the contribution that you've done.
Speaker 2:You know, being able to share with us who are coming. You know, sometimes it's a little easier to talk to people who are on a similar level. Yep, right, yep. So, yeah, I thank you for coming and being able to share with those who have come to visit with us. You know, from Turtle Island, yeah, I lift you up in that because you know sometimes it is hard to step into that new space in a different type of way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, step into that new space in a different type of way. Yeah, definitely. And then again, that's where an expectation of wearing moko and being in a moko space yeah and practicing is like oh yeah, that guy must must know yeah, but not realizing.
Speaker 1:I'm still learning, and that's okay, yeah, that's all right yeah, I think, but I do acknowledge that you know there is a process, yeah, and it's a matter of following that process. However that path comes, yeah, um, sometimes people, it's just a natural flow for me. That's kind of how it's going at the moment, yeah, and then, and then meeting the likes of yourself and um, greg and all them, and then the opportunities, then the opportunities of traveling over to you guys next year, which, fingers crossed, things work out well. I don't know about driving around, but, yeah, definitely, but it's still cultural exchange.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:From yeah, bottom line. It's cultural exchange, sharing each other's culture and, even while I was getting done last night, just the similarities between our two cultures. What Echo was able to share is like wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I would attempt to try and pronounce her traditional name, but no. Yeah, but yeah, and that's in my experience that's kind of what this is all about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, indigenous people coming together and sharing and learning from each other yeah, what I would say part of it is understanding the similarities, also understanding the differences, and knowing that both of those things are important, right, and I would also say like, when I think about it, it's uh, re-emphasizing to ourselves the importance of our land but, right, because a lot of times we talk about the similarities and I would say the similarities in a lot of respects is because we all come from the land.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, our peoples, our cultures, our communities are so integrally connected to land, geography, the places that we come from that's where the similarities come from, because we're looking at pretty well, all the same shit, yeah, although it's different. Like when I look at our forests, they're different than your forest yeah but they're all looking at the plants, the birds, the animals, the ocean. Well, not us.
Speaker 2:We don't have ocean where we're at, but rivers, bodies of water etc yeah, so that's where the similarity, but the difference comes from the particularity of that place yeah, whether uniqueness yeah, the uniqueness of that and understanding those are important because we all couldn't live in the same territory we all couldn't live in the same lands, and so that difference is so important and I would also say like that, the way that the difference of our geographies, the way that they change, the way we think right, and so understanding that not only is it visually different, but our minds, the way we think, the way we process the stories that come from those places help us to see the world differently and to acknowledge that difference in opinion is also important.
Speaker 1:Those are kind of the lessons I take from these types of experiences, yeah definitely, and then even coming from or traveling from one side of the country to the other, it's always nice coming to this side of the country because it's sunny and there's weather, there's water, whereas where I come from is interior and it's all bush, and I think nearest coast is like an hour's drive further west. So, yeah, definitely, totally. Um, topography, uh climate, yeah, um, it's a lot more cold and wetter where where I live, uh, so it's nice to see the sunshine yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I would say, yeah, same same for us. You know it's like, uh, what about a three-hour drive for us to get to the ocean? Three, or four so yeah, like we're real interior, not as interior as some folks but in our area we're interior folks and so yeah just understanding those differences and seeing how that transforms and changes our cultures. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:It's kind of cool, right, a range can divide. Oh, how's two separate peoples with different language and not even being able to understand? And for me it's like, well, we have a general language, but we have our sub-tribal dialects and differences, but we can still understand each other, Whereas for you guys, yeah, there's no understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you go far enough there was not enough connection for us to like and the what would you say, the proto-language or the original language was totally different right.
Speaker 2:So the construction of the way that we speak, the way that we put things together grammatically is just totally different because it emerged from a different place right and so of course, we have people that are around us that are interior Salish, coastal Salish, so that's all one language family, even though we have definite differences because of the geographies that we live in, the time that we, uh, work together. You know the length of time it has been since we migrated somewhere else, um, but then you go to other places, you, you go over the Rocky Mountains and you're like who are these people?
Speaker 1:Right. How do we talk to them?
Speaker 2:right, yeah, so yeah, and then you go further and further. It's, you know, the likelihood of contact at that time was different, right.
Speaker 1:Definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well well.
Speaker 2:So when you think about, the um your journey, uh, what you know. I know you're just in the beginning, but I always uh like to ask this question. Sometimes I don't, but I do most of the time. Right, you know what would be a little piece of advice for those who are coming up?
Speaker 2:whether it be for carving, or whether it be language, whether it be culture, or whether it be for carving, or whether it be language, whether it be culture, or whether it be moko or skin marking. What would be a piece of advice for those who are coming up under you? Because, of course, you've come this far, so you have some type of knowledge that you could share.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, as I said earlier, we're only kaitiaki for our time. Part of that kaitiakitanga, or guardianship of our respective practices, is to then pass the knowledge on, whether it's formal learning, wānanga, those sorts of things. Where we come from, they're slowly starting to emerge, but, yeah, I think times will be different for those generations that are coming up, a lot more accessible, whereas when I first started out, I think and Dan put it a good way I was part of kind of the last wave before it became normal, where it was still kind of in the shadows, if you like. But, yeah, just a matter of if it feels right and it's that burning desire to not falter and just carry on.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, good to have a solid foundation and an understanding of what you're doing in your respective practice right across anything. Yeah, yeah, but I'm no expert in any field either no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:I wasn't asking you to speak as an expert. Just from your own experience, you know, because we each have a little, uh, a little nugget, or, as q called it, a little gem, yep, that we can add into the pile so that we can all um become better yeah, the pile of gems that we put in the middle.
Speaker 1:Right, I get you.
Speaker 2:And you know, sometimes those folks that you know have been doing the work for 30 years, maybe their gem isn't, as doesn't resonate as much as the gem that you have to offer Right yeah. Because maybe it's too advanced, maybe the gem is too polished for us to pick up at the time that we're at. So, for those people that are just coming forward, maybe they need to hear the gem that you have, as opposed to the gem of the veteran somebody who's been doing the work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's what I was asking for, just because, from your own experience, you are the expert of your experience, and that's all I'm asking for yeah, yeah, definitely. And that's all we can really speak to, right?
Speaker 1:And that's what I always put forward is.
Speaker 2:I'm an expert not of my ancestors tattooing. I'm not an expert in anything other than my own journey and my own experience with my ancestors, yep. Skin marking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think what this whole wānanga has shown me is the cultural diversity, even with practices and things like that, being able to pick up, especially when it comes to uhi mahi or tapping with chisel. For us. There's very few that are practicing to uhi mahi or tapping or chisel. For us. There's very few that are practicing with uhi. Where I come from there's maybe two, and one was the uncle that done my mato ora, but it's talking with our Polynesian whanau where they've got a long line of traditional skin marking and things like that and kind of seeing how they do things and getting tips and tricks and just encouragement of, yeah, go out and try this and try that. And basically what it came down to was whatever feels right for you, because at the end of the day, you're the one that's holding the tools. What might feel right for someone else may not necessarily feel right for you. Yeah, but at the end of the day, long as uh, as long as you're still working um, yeah, cool works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah well, I just appreciate you taking the time to come and sit with me and share your journey. Yeah, um, I look forward to a follow-up in the future, you know as your journey continues. You know you'll continue to learn and have more to share as that time goes on, so I look forward to you know, uh, hanging out again. Yeah, definitely yeah um and um.
Speaker 1:Thank you for allowing me to share a space with you and um, almost from the opposite side of the spectrum really yeah, from from a veteran to someone that's learning. And yeah, um, I just would like to um acknowledge you for allowing me to step into your, into this space, um and um. Yeah, I wish you all the best, um, for your remainder here in new zealand, and also safe travels back home, and hopefully I'm able to catch up with you when I come over.
Speaker 2:That'll be dope.
Speaker 1:Might be a plane ride or two.
Speaker 2:We'll see how we go.
Speaker 1:But yeah, definitely not driving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely not yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'd like to thank you for the invitation. Yeah, it was great. It was a great time.
Speaker 2:So thank you, thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Just acknowledging yourself as a leader within your people and a leader within your particular practice and wishing you safe journeys, as you with your remainder time here in New Zealand, and safe journeys home, back to your home people.
Speaker 2:Yeah hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you. Following this journey, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head on over to next week's episode, where I talk to Nathaniel Hartley, a non-Indigenous tattoo artist who serves the LGBTQ community in Halifax, nova Scotia. In this episode, we talk about some of the similarities between the communities that we each serve. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.