Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Healing Through Heritage: Sheldon Louis on the Transformative Power of Traditional Tattoos
#041 How does one become an ancestral tattoo artist in the modern world? Join us as we share the inspiring journey of Sheldon Louis, whose path to mastering traditional skin marking began with a chance encounter at UBC Okanagan. Despite hurdles like conflicting schedules and the COVID-19 pandemic, Sheldon’s unwavering determination led him to a unique cohort where he honed his craft. Together, we explore how these experiences shaped his transition from colonial application methods to more authentic ancestral training practices.
We dive into the crucial responsibilities tattoo practitioners hold, emphasizing safety, authenticity, and respect for traditional protocols. Sheldon and I reflect on bridging knowledge gaps for those reconnecting with their heritage, and the emotional impact of adhering to these protocols, including moments of grief and mourning. We also touch upon the transformative nature of receiving ancestral tattoos, highlighting the profound personal and communal growth that accompanies this sacred art.
This episode also covers the broader implications of our work, from community healing to the role of visual art in our lives. Sheldon shares how discovering his cultural roots enriched his artistic identity, while I recount personal stories about my family's influence on my creative journey. We discuss the importance of mentorship, preserving community histories, and the transformative power of nurturing young talents. Tune in for a heartfelt conversation about perseverance, community, and the enduring significance of ancestral traditions in our contemporary world.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Sheldon at:
Instagram @boundbyafeather
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I think that was amazing to hear that. That you know, a few days after giving that that marking to that individual, that they were like. You know, not only was it good for my, transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch.
Speaker 2:My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Inka Kapok skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Sheldon Lewis. I come from the north end of Okanagan Lake in our northern one of our northern parts of Seal territory, Okanagan territory, and I'm a visual artist and traditional tattoo practitioner.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So I'll just get you to maybe tell the story of how you got into ancestral skin marking and traditional tattooing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that one. That was actually quite a. That was a quite a few year process, yeah. But but long story short, um, I met you at uh when you were delivering your thesis. Yeah, at ubc okanagan, through, um, my cousin danielle, she, she came home one day with one of your tattoos. Yeah, you guys, I think that was your first year, I think, doing the Earthline stuff there.
Speaker 1:And so when she came back with it, I was just blown away. I was like look, it just reminded me so much of a rock pictograph, petroglyph and just the rawness. And I was like, I was just like I need to, where did you get this right? And she's like oh, dion, dion did it, it's my bro in school. Like, come to our thesis, we're reading our thesis together on the same day. And she introduced us and, um, I think from then I was just like I showed interest and then, over probably a good three to four year process, we tried to reconnect three or four times. You know, every time it just it wasn't lining up. At the time I was doing chief and council work and was unable to get the month time commitment that that was needed, and so we just kept trying and, and you know, thankfully for you, you just kept reaching out and was like you know, we'll figure this out next time. And and uh, yeah, it was about three years ago we, you reached out to three years I think it's about three.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's gotta be close to right, because that was right before covid, right, um reached out and asked if if I wanted to apply with you to a grant and be part of an interior cohort to learn, and so, um, you know, I think that was maybe one of the I don't know, one of the one of the parts that you know, having to rethink what a classroom setting looked like during COVID, yeah, I think was the thing that really made it possible for me, because we did it remotely, which, again, on one hand, learning about tattooing remotely was it was kind of was like how is this even possible?
Speaker 1:right, it's so hands-on but, you know, being able to to do it over zoom at that time, the creation of that platform really made it possible, I think, um, especially because all all three of us were were located kind of with robin and and jackie and merit and myself and in West Bank at the time, and Vernon, it just made it easy to go about. And so, you know, we set out on a six-week or so process of learning, you know, a lot of the technical pieces early, and then we were able to link up a little further in the project to actually start doing some tattooing. But yeah, I think over the span of probably a good five or six years it took to get to that point. Yeah, you know, and it was awesome that we were finally able to, because every time the opportunity came up at UBC it was just like I wanted it so bad and I wanted to, but it just would never work out. And so I was like, well, you know if it's meant to be it keeps popping up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it keeps popping up, so it'll happen some, some way or another, when it's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that also brings up something good for me to uh talk about. Maybe a little bit is, you know, because with Earthline we had more of like a structured I would almost argue like a colonial process of like application and all of that type of stuff and interview you know people that we had no idea who they were and so it was real it. You know it could be easy for somebody to you know fake who they are you know for the interview, just like you have with job interviews etc. And position themselves as somebody who they aren't. And so those were some valuable lessons as I moved through that project with Jordan and Amy and Amber Lee with the Earthline Collective.
Speaker 2:But then I started to think, well, how did our ancestors do that? Right, and I remember, you know, hearing many of those stories of like, well, they would watch you and they would, you know, oh, that person has a good memory or they tell really good stories, or they have a good memory and they tell good stories, right, and so it's like that person is a storyteller and so they would pick you and they would train you because they recognize those talents and those aptitudes, right, and they knew who you were as a person. And then it's like you know, those people who were runners to bring messages, of course that would have to be an athletic person who had endurance, so not somebody who was just strong, but somebody who could go long and far and just get that work done. And so it was like you know, taking those ancestral lessons of like looking and going. Okay, I see this person, I know they have all the skills, talents, aptitudes that is necessary to be a cultural practitioner. And so that's why in that project I was like, hey, you're coming along, we got to do this.
Speaker 2:And then I grabbed Robin too, because I'd been chasing him as well. And also it was like kind of a call to my heart to say like I need to, because of course I had moved away. I was like I need to leave this home right, like this needs to happen in the interior, like doesn't make sense that there's nobody in the interior doing the work when that's where I'm from right. And so it was. So it was actually just a call for me to go like do this. And so now it's actually pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Um, we were in at the true tribal exhibition in vancouver. So there's echo, myself and robin, so three intricate book. You know practitioners. There I was like, oh, this feels so good, right, yeah, totally, but yeah, no, I just wanted to put that forward.
Speaker 2:I think I've kind of articulated that in the past in the podcast. But, yeah, just taking that ancestral teaching of how to recognize and how to teach people are as a as a human being, as a person and also in terms of your artwork, you know, I know I recognize that you had what it takes to be a cultural tattoo practitioner, because it's not just the art, it's also your heart. You know the way that you um hold, uh, you know our artwork sacred and the way that you care for people and the way that you, uh, what would you say? Like I would say you're even more strict than me maybe in terms of some things. You know, uh, but that's valuable, right, and for me that also helps to balance me because I'm actually very much kind of the other way, more of an innovator, more like a youth just running off yeah, and you know that that's a, it's a major compliment you know I thought about on the drive up here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like how, listening to you know, ever since you started doing um, the transformative remarks, listening to everybody and just drawing so many parallels, yeah, and and looking at how all of us, in in one shape or form, are carry certain similarities in in those beliefs and those values, right, and yeah and totally, totally understand that uh, of coming into a university space, yeah, and you know, because of how they're structured, they need certain structures and you know, I think it's important to to bring those teachings back of watching yeah you know, young people, that's a big gap in our, in us transforming into who we need to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's so many of us that were out there in community that never, never, had an understanding of what our calling was, what our role and responsibility was to the village, to the community, to the family to the nation right yeah big time and so coming in and and even doing it, you know, obviously we we aren't living in those times anymore and so we, we are going to do things differently.
Speaker 1:We are going to do things that fit us in the now right. That's what we talked about you know, creating the new um like the new old right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big time so what was that experience?
Speaker 2:Uh, for you, even though you know, of course, it was a bit unique and different because we had to do all of that online and so, uh, but I think you know one thing that I think about when I uh start to reflect because maybe I haven't had enough time to reflect on that is that really?
Speaker 2:For me, it's about when people understand the principles, especially of health and safety, cross-contamination and also, I think, ultimately, understanding the importance and the position that this work holds. It actually helps us to make those decisions in the right way, right. So, of course, you come into a situation like, oh, how the hell do I deal with this? But then you have those principles right, and so you can make that decision to do that in the right way, and so I think that's what maybe helped the project to be successful was, you know, really highlighting and pounding home for me the principles. And then, hey, you take this work and do it the way that you need to it, within these specific principles that have to do with health and safety and, above and beyond that, it's your practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think you know it was. I liked it for me. I'm a very process kind of driven person.
Speaker 1:I like things you know, mapped out to some extent. So I'm coming in, I know again, look, I'm gonna do the best I can with, with what I have, and so we're better equipped to do that in that sense. Yeah, you know, I think that was the. That was the big focus for me, right, like ensuring that we're gonna do it responsibly. Yeah, do it respectfully. I mean and we talked about it during our training just how often many of us learned at a very young age just picking up a needle and some ink and obviously not doing it a safe way, yeah, but instinctively still doing it. And I think, coming in and giving it, giving work, that respect and giving it that safety that it needs in that context, yeah, big time Of. You know we don't want to, you know we don't want to come in and do bad work, and so you know it is about doing things in a good way and, I think, being able to be free with it after the logistics, yeah, big time was amazing.
Speaker 1:And having um robin and jackie as part of the group, like the bouncing ideas back daily, yeah, between our little cohort, was, it was so, I don't know nurturing and and um, refreshing, I guess in in a, in in certain context, because again, when we talked about new, old, it's like we're only picking up what we can, yeah, and so we don't know fully what it looked like, yeah, and so to have that freedom to some extent to be like, okay, this is what we hope it to be, yeah. And then, hearing from all your colleagues, you know each of them come from with it, yeah, you know where they take it and and how it grows into something else, even after that. Yeah, you know, I think that's super important these days to be authentic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think, obviously we did have certain traditional protocols and things and and that are still alive today in certain works, which is great because, again, those hold us to natural law, yeah, which makes sure that we're doing things in a good way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but when we have that ability to come in, and especially as people who are either reconnecting or people who grew up, you know, from residential school survivors yeah, so there's a knowledge gap there and I think we all are striving to gain and fill that gap, yeah, big time. But again, when you don't know how to fill it, it's tough. You know, it's like trying to figure out what's right and wrong, but still being able to do it in a way where it's not based in such a strict, yeah, guideline. Yeah, right, big time. Because I mean, you think of you think of life after residential schools and the different things that were taught there, of being strict and how harmful sometimes I guess that can be. Yeah, big time. As well, as you know that gentleness in that space of all of us feeling safe enough to share, like, well, this is what I learned and this is, you know, I'm pulling from here, yeah, and taking principles from, you know, this practitioner or that practitioner and building it. So it makes sense for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a good, it was a good cohort was a a good, it was a good cohort.
Speaker 2:And I think I learned that also from the last earthline tattoo school, because we kind of did like an alberta kind of um, you know uh, cohort there, you know, uh, for practitioners, just so that, again, like we were thinking like, uh, in the first couple of tattoo schools, it was such a diverse community of folks coming in that they kind of like, because of the distance you know, was hard to keep connected and so it was, um, you know, really a foundational thing for us to go.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's like concentrate on a cohort so that you have support and if you need somebody, you know, yeah, they may be a couple hours away, three, four hours, but that's enough that if you wanted to, you could easily get together in a day and go away again, right? So I thought that was really important and it was helpful and also again answered that question and that call to my heart to make sure that, uh, you know, this work happens in our valleys, here in the interior, just because you know it started here, and I was like, oh, I can't like leave it. That doesn't make sense that feels it felt selfish and so I didn't want that feeling.
Speaker 2:I wanted to make sure that that work went forward in our communities. Um, when you think about the work of a practitioner, you know, uh, what are some of those lessons that you've learned that you could leave for those who may be listening that, um, that are coming up or, you know, still in the beginning, parts of their practice.
Speaker 1:I think it's tough. I tried to approach it. I had it in my mind okay, I'm going to approach it to this. This is what I. This is the kind of parameters I want to keep it in. Yeah, but I'm going to leave it open to let it go wherever it needs to.
Speaker 1:And more often than none. It was outside that box within a couple minutes. I was like, okay, well, you know, trying to figure out what do I need to do for myself safety-wise, what do I need to do for myself protocol-wise or ceremony-wise wise, and leaving it open to to whoever that individual is is coming in, to either be a part of that, yeah, or to not, yeah, and to again understand, I think, where people meet them, where they're at, yeah, where they coming in, yeah, yeah, you know everybody's going to have different insight, yeah, to what it should be, yeah, what it should look like, how it should feel, yeah, and so, coming in and, I think, being able to try to let go of the control of the process, yeah, because coming in as a visual artist, as a painter, yeah, I'm all about. Okay, I got to control this canvas, I got to control this wall, whatever to make it what I want it to be when, coming in and doing it for an individual.
Speaker 1:It's about them, it's about their experience, it's about what they want to express and I think, coming in and learning through that learning when we did our training about coming of age ceremonies and going out onto the land and fasting and asking for that, asking for whatever it is that you need to come to you. Yeah, for that, asking for whatever it is that you need to come to you. Yeah, it was it turned around for me because it was like this is a very personal experience for that person. Yeah, because it's whatever, whatever's came to them. And so trying to remove myself from it to the point where I'm like, okay, this is, this is all about them. Service, service yeah, totally Right. And and that was a it was a tough transition in that work because I'd always worked in a, in a very controlled environment with my heart Right and so.
Speaker 1:I think just being open.
Speaker 2:Controlled in the sense of what you wanted to express and how that was put out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know like I'm very methodic with my own imagery and you know I really research and delve in when I'm creating something because I want to embed teachings into it, teachings into it right where doing this work, um, I think that that really was the teaching of, I think, maybe having that responsibility of um creating that connection for them, yeah, rather than for my own.
Speaker 1:Yeah, outcome, yeah, you know that's a. It was a humbling experience the first couple times, right, and I was glad that in those first few they were they're people that are close to me, yeah, right where, I think when you're talking about, too, like going in and doing the early earth line stuff and not sure, yeah, of a lot of pieces right coming in and having people that you were very close to, grew up with are related to and being able to um evolve, I guess, a bit in that space and and maybe sit with some of that uncomfortability of having to move outside of the typical, yeah, process and the box that I've kept my visual art from. So I think that was a big part of it for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a really good insight. And again, I think that, oh, we got snow. That's crazy. We're sitting here in what April and we just started snowing. Anyways, yeah, I think that's a really good insight in terms of that service piece, you know, and really looking at it in terms of, and the thing that you shared was that the person was receiving what they needed and that was based on kind of like a protocol or a process or a principle associated with coming of age and the things that they needed to help them in their journey, which I think is a really cool way of starting to, you know, think about that and start to work out well, hey, how am I going to operate in this work? And that was kind of a thing that informed the decisions that you made, which is a really good insight, and I thank you for sharing that. It's pretty cool. You know you have received your own ancestral marks. What was that decision in as far as you're comfortable, and that experience for you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean obviously when, when we first started the training, um, you know, I think prior to that I'd I'd come across the uh, the tate work on that and at that time I was not in a good place in my life in addictions and it never really clicked with me to really delve in and understand it.
Speaker 1:But then, once we started going through the research and starting to understand the intent and the meanings behind it, and and then even beyond that, because you know, tate was only able to capture, you know, bits and pieces where we were kind of left to try to fill in what we thought might be those gaps, and yeah, I was reading over my notes this morning from those early sessions of just what was coming up and it was just there was so much identity there, so much connection coming back to finding ourselves. And you know, I wanted my markings early on. In that I was like man, that is, that's so cool, like yeah, that would be so awesome to to bring that back. And and I never fully thought of doing the chin markings. You know, early on, right like again, my first one, one got on my arm and you know Jerry had done that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jerry did that at the second tattoo school and at that time my knowledge because at that time I did do a bit of background research to figure out, like, well, if I'm going to do this, I want to try and get it as traditional as possible. And so I had learned then about markings of wrists and forearms yeah, as possible. And so I had learned then about markings of wrists and forearms yeah. And then when we moved into it, it was just empowering to think how transforming those would be. Yeah, and you know, I shared of different people over my lifetime that I had seen with them and just how amazing it looked right.
Speaker 1:And so I think it was a couple of year, a year after we did the training, I lost my mom and and so at that time, you know when in our teachings is that? You know, in the time of grief and your time of mourning, you gotta, you gotta put down whatever it may be. You know, definitely, no hunting, no gathering. You know, and if there's other things, that other roles and responsibilities that you carry in community, that it's a good thing to put that down. And so for me, I put down that tattooing for that year and it was a tough year, and so coming in. It was a few months out from the year memorial for my mom and Robin had put together the awakening, the first awakening our DNA up here in Lower Nicola and I was like wow, like that's on the same day. That's going to be a year where I can go and start doing things again and part of those teachings was like.
Speaker 1:I asked my wife. I said hey, because she had done my ties, she had done my ties for me that year and there was some. You know there's some protocols around that not being mindful of using your voice, being mindful how you work with your hands, being mindful of a lot of different things that we have to do. At the time I didn't understand it. But going through the grief, you know work with your hands, being mindful of a lot of different things that we have to. At the time I didn't understand it. But going through the grief, you know you, you start to understand why those protocols are in place, because there's so many things that come up and there's so many ways that we can maybe have a not so good impact because we're in our grief and we're not thinking clearly. But I asked, asked, I said part of that protocol was trying to not be visually um would be the word just not being flashy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what I mean being humble, you know, and and sticking kind of to yourself a bit right, and so I. So I had asked her. I said, hey, I've been really having this feeling of needing to get this mark. Is that, is that possible during this time. And she was like no, because you're going to be out there in public and that's going to draw attention to you. So she's like you have to wait the year. And I said oh, okay, yeah, you know that's, that's fine. Fine, I, I understand that.
Speaker 1:And and it just so happened when robin planned that and I was like yes, like yeah, do you got an opening on that day, I said, oh, I gotta be in kerameus in the smilkameen, to celebrate and and kind of close that year of grieving, yeah. But I was like as soon as I'm done that, like I can be up there in two, three hours, like can you fit me in? And so he's like, yeah, he's like come on up, bro, like let's do this right. So put together a bundle for him and and went in and and I think, like that was having the experience of this one, yeah, was it, was that's what kind of made me really realize that it was about me, yeah, what I needed, yeah, and in that time it was kind of it was a signifier of your, I guess for me, I guess would kind of be my third life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know it was a signifier and similar to your coming of age ceremonies yeah, having ceremony attached to key things to to represent that that's a time now where you're leaving this behind and you're moving on into something, yeah, different right? Yeah, and so it was. It was pretty powerful that that night, like I was so exhausted and but by time when, when robin was finished and I was able to look in the mirror, I was just like it. It was very, um, it was just like shedding a skin, you know, after being in that grief for a year. Yeah, and it was a.
Speaker 1:It was very helpful, I think, in being like okay marking that you know, even though that grief is there with you the rest of your life, it's like okay, yeah, this is the time now where where you've got to kind of come back together, you know, come back into community, come back into family, come back into who you're meant to be. Right and yeah, and I think of it in that way, is that, you know, as we talked about during those, the research part, like how it's such a decolonizing piece of who we, yeah, you know, like you, you share of. It's that missing piece. And we've got all these other song and ceremony and dance and food, sovereignty practice, all these different practices that are coming back, but that one piece was missing, yeah, and so coming in and having that, it was like it was a real shift yeah, yeah, big time, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:uh, that's, that's cool. Um, and the reason I say that is because when my dad passed, that's actually the time that I went to Nova Scotia and for me, intuitively, I knew even though I didn't know that there was a protocol, that you were supposed to put those things down I intuitively knew that I couldn't tattoo at that time. And so for me, hearing you say that, like hey, this is actually a protocol that you know you put that down, in that time of grief I'm like wow, you know, like so in some, in some instances, you know, we have to trust some of those intuitions that we have. And so for me it was yeah, that's why one of the reasons I you know stepped away from tattooing for a while is I couldn't. I couldn't hold my grief and I couldn't hold the work of caring for somebody and holding them as they're going through their process of transformation. I couldn't do it and I was just like, and I and of course, as you say, that wasn't like a conscious thing, it was just like I got to go do something else.
Speaker 2:And then later I'm looking back and I'm going, oh, you know, and I recognize that. But then now hearing you say it in terms of, hey, like this is actually a protocol that we had. I'm like, wow, you know. It's kind of, you know, makes me. It makes me excited to see how amazing our ancestors were and are, right, like we knew that those are the things that you had to do, and I would say that it's like also a teaching that could very easily be. You know, the people can learn from you know, in terms of like, hey, like this is a time that you need to. You know, care for yourself and not hold other people.
Speaker 1:and not hold other people. Yeah, you know, I think, just how you put it right. You're not in that space to care for someone. And it's because at that time, we're the ones that need to be taken care of right, and I think our people were so amazing with their understanding of what we now call mental health, spiritual health yeah, what we now call mental health, spiritual health.
Speaker 1:They had those practices and they knew very well what to do in those instances, right, and it's similar to like during that year, right, because you can't hunt and gather. It's a signifier that people in community are supposed to step forward, or people in family are a signifier that they have to step forward and care for you and hunt for you or pick for you. And so, yeah, you know coming in, and I think it's amazing, like that's that blood memory, that DNA memory that just intuitively kicks in when you're going through something right intuitively kicks in when, yeah, when you're going through something right like it.
Speaker 1:We're always taught, like, always been around where people are, like, where you're going through something and you're yeah, you know you you're venting and yeah, they're like well, you know what to do, yeah, and you sit there and you know, once you can move out of your own emotion and your own ego of you know of it all, you're like, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do I need to do?
Speaker 1:Okay, I need to go and do this. I need to do this. Or you know, or even sometimes you know to go and ask somebody. Okay, I don't physically know what to do, but something's coming to me and what should I do in this moment?
Speaker 2:Right, I need to. I know I need to do something, but I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's tough because, as indigenous people, they're like I said, that residential school left such a gap where we don't have full access to those teachings anymore. Yeah, you know, thankfully for all the strong ones who, you know, took it underground and, yeah, kept it alive. Yeah, you know, if it wasn't for them, like for me, I grew up without any of that stuff. Yeah, and I'm grateful to have a wife and, yeah, you know people you know and a brother and stuff who, who moved into were raised in that way, and my brother, who had learned and moved into it at some day to to as well, do, like we did, bring it back to community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, those are all those missing pieces, you know, like you know, when, when you reference a, uh, a bills thesis, yeah, often it's, it's a, it's such a great uh analogy. Yeah, for for picking up those pieces and again coming in and doing what, what we need to do for others, and that's what I think similar to, similar to those who go and hunt for you during your grief. It we're in that role, I think, as a practitioner, yeah, big time these people are needing some kind of shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like with us doing our fasting, you know I was what was. I was 38 I think when I first learned about it. I mean I I knew about it, but that's one of my first actually went and and did it. Yeah, you, and learning how those ceremonies are important shifts to tell, to tell that blood memory, to tell that.
Speaker 1:DNA inside of you, like, okay, now's your time to stop being a young boy or a child, and now's your time to be adolescent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now's your time to be adult, adolescent, yeah, now's your time to be adult. And having those really, um, celebrated, yeah, and expressed in that way, so that way, like I said, sometimes you don't know what to do, but having that signified in that way, you know, okay, well, here I go. And so when we're doing that for other people, yeah, big time, like that was kind of the eye opener for me is after going through all those processes of being like, oh, wow, like I'm not a hunter, I'm not a gatherer, so to speak, so I don't go out and do that for people in that time, but I have a responsibility to help people through this work that we do, yeah, at a time when they need it, right, yeah, big time, yeah, and I would say that's uh a good way of putting it in terms of, like, understanding those responsibilities you know, uh, because of course, that was one of the key foundational principles of you know, the training that we did was understanding those responsibilities in the work and how those responsibilities fit into community as a community member.
Speaker 2:Like, uh, yeah, so it's cool to see how you know the work is actually teaching you those lessons as you're going through the work through the work, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1:I mean it's tough, I mean as a as, uh, an adult. Yeah, you know, coming in and having to relearn so many different pieces about what it is to be a healthy man, yeah, in a family, healthy man in community, in family, coming in and having to unlearn so many unhealthy, yeah, behaviors and then relearning, yeah, like what is healthy, yeah, and it in. In moving through that for myself, like that healing process, you know it was like sobered up 11 years ago. Yeah, at that time you're like, oh well, life's gonna be better. Now I've, yeah, I'm healed.
Speaker 1:But I would say a lot lately is like the quitting and that acknowledging of of that is just the beginning, that the tough work is having to physically go in and look at yourself, yeah, look at how are you impacting others, yeah, um, you know what behaviors aren't serving you or serving for family or community. And and that was a big part of for me why I haven't delved right into it yeah, um, because, again, you know, I've heard a lot of the other practitioners say the same thing We've got to be in a real good place with ourselves'm supposed to be, yeah and um, you know it was a.
Speaker 1:It's a big realization of having to carry yourself in the right way in order to do those works, and so it's very tough. In this day and time and I think at my age, you're coming in and learning things that prior to colonization, we should have been learning yeah, it just would have been part of what we do, yeah, right and, like you said earlier, that that's a very important part, that that elder and community watching, because that that's your mentoring through your whole life.
Speaker 1:And yeah, yeah, you know, learning from the uncles, learning from the aunts, learning from the elders, right, and so having all those gaps not filled and then trying to play catch up, yeah, big time. It was a big part of why I've chose to pull back a bit and be mindful of like, okay, again, I thought it was just like, oh, this is gonna be amazing, we're gonna go out and we're just gonna, you know, mark, mark, mark, like we're gonna just we're gonna blow it up, right, and after looking at it and understanding again my own limitations because of my grief, yep, because of the gaps in in um, emotional intelligence and stuff, you know, I thought, I thought I knew some things and it turns out, after you start going down that road, you start learning. Well, it's a constant learning process.
Speaker 1:You know, I think once I moved into that part of my life, I'm feeling like I'm getting more to that place of like being able to carry it, I think, in the way that it's meant to be carried.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, big time hey there, listeners, it's dion kazis, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think those are all, uh, some important insights that you're bringing up. Uh, there, in terms of, uh, the preparation, um, is really what you're talking about, and when you're and when I say that that's the preparation, to hold the space for those people in a way that honors them and allows you to truly step into the work in a way that honors the work, honors the person that you're working with and also honors yourself. Yeah, I think that is a powerful insight, that you're really, you know that, a thread that you're starting to pull upon. And it was, um, you know, and I think that is totally true, that you know we have to prepare, um what would you say? Uh, our souls, our beings, our, our, uh, our spirit, in a way, uh, that allows us to honor the person that we're uh holding, you know, because and I think holding is probably a really good phrase to describe that because, in a lot of ways, when people are going through the work, they actually are quite fragile right.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think in an interview I did the last week, naomi said you know you're in a really vulnerable place and so you know being able to hold people in that time and space is a prerequisite to doing that is our own healing, and I like how you also said it's important to highlight that it's not a one-time thing. It's a continual process of building up our own healing as we go through that process, and sometimes I would say that the, the work teaches you some of the healing that you got to do you. You know you'll go through something. You'll be like, oh why am I feeling that you know what's going on there? And so then you have to go and do that dark, deep work to help yourself be able to be a caretaker and a holder of those people's journey journey.
Speaker 2:Um, when I think about, uh, that process of learning that you did, um, you know I want one thing that comes to mind and I'm just kind of circling back here is you, um, during the process of our learning, you did a lot of community research and research into uh, because uh, seal or okanagan, there isn't a lot written or a lot that has been published or put out and made public about your uh, ancestral and customary tattooing. You did a lot of community research and you actually ended up from my understanding, from what you found a good little basket full of knowledge from community in terms of interviews etc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was once I started delving in, obviously, you know, because Tate mentions and references a couple markings that were shared, yeah, and so, you know, in talking with people they're like, yeah, we were very, very closely interconnected, interrelated with the Inquilapen, with the Chiquapen, yeah, so there's a lot of overlaps and a lot of similarities. So there's a lot of overlaps and a lot of similarities and the more I started wanting to learn more, you know, I came across a number of different applications to it yeah, that the people in the South that they would mark people who maybe had some type of infraction in the community, and so you'd get a certain color marking, yeah, and then say, well, you know, it was a way of I don't know if you'd call it healthy, but it was a way of, I think, teaching the shame piece, yeah, being like, you know, know, hey, you did wrong, right, like, and we learn about that through sin cleat and to all of his antics and stories of yeah you know, he always does something wrong and there's a consequence to it.
Speaker 1:Right, and there was. There was a lot of debate that I'd. I'd found comments online of people who who also believe that we did have them and believe that we didn't. Yeah, and it was tough because you got to sift through it and sometimes that in itself of just holding space and not being combative with people yeah, just being like, okay, that's what you were taught and that's okay. Yeah, there's a lot of different teachings. None of them are wrong. Yeah, and that's okay. There's a lot of different teachings. None of them are wrong. And I think one of the surprising ones I came across was my great-grandfather in an interview, and it was funny because I'd had the interview. I had it written down from the Vernon.
Speaker 2:Greater Vernon.
Speaker 1:Museum archives in my computer and I had only ever just browsed it. Yeah, you know, and I also have a, an audio recording of it too, and for some reason, every time I'd looked at in the past I had never zeroed in on it. But in there he did talk about um markings on the wrists, on the forearms, on the temples, on the face. Yeah, he talked about how a majority of people at the time, yeah, wore them, and I was just like whoa, like this is amazing, like cause I'm? I'm in that space again where, yeah, because we didn't document it in today's world, you know, I think in through the education system. It's like, if it's not right there in front of you, it's tough to, yeah, believe sometimes, yeah, and we've got to decolonize that of being like, well, no, we know it existed. We got oral history that says, you know, sure, some people don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there, right, and so it was a big. It was a big, I don't know, signifier, I guess, of me being in the right place. Yeah, and I was just like whoa, like the fact that I could come across something like that.
Speaker 1:I was like, well, I must have been meant to find that, yeah, yeah, something like that. I was like, well, I must have been meant to find that, yeah, yeah, and so it. For me it was really just uplifting and being like okay again, because coming in, and even though I was drawn to it, even though I was so excited as an artist to learn it, part of me was still like is this, is this part of who I am? Am I just, am I just chasing this, or is it part of who I am? Right? And again it comes back to not having people at a young age say this is your gift and this is who you are, this will be your role and responsibility. You know, and without having those significant moments in our lives because of colonization, it's tough sometimes to maybe trust.
Speaker 1:Again, like you, said your intuition was telling you something, yeah, but you're just not sure, right yeah?
Speaker 2:big time and I would say, yeah, I guess part of that. The word that came up for me is like gave you permission, right Permission, to step into that role, you know, and when I think about that too in terms of in terms of gathering people's talents, you know, is offering going hey, I even seen my uncle, you know, when he's like, hey, I'm going hunting, come. You know, do you want to come?
Speaker 2:or hey, I'm going trapping, you know, and then overhearing, as a young one, when he was talking to my mom, he's like, oh, you know, uh, he's gonna be a good tracker, you know, because he's always scanning and looking for those things, right.
Speaker 2:And so people just giving opportunities for you to find those things, and the reason that I like to always bring them up is it's just, it's something that I have learned myself and just, you know, encourage, you know people to do that in their own lives. It's like you know, hey, there's your nephew Like, hey, I'm going to do this thing, you know, encourage, you know people to do that in their own lives. It's like you know, hey, there's your nephew Like, hey, I'm going to do this thing, you know, especially if you notice that that's something that they do, you know like, hey, I'm going to do some drawing, do you want to come paint or whatever? Right, you notice that those are those skills and those aptitudes, just to invite those young ones along and start to do those things today totally, you know, and I for me, it was part of that.
Speaker 1:I think, as an artist, like as a visual artist I talk about it often of of coming in and doing those youth projects. Yeah, like I grew up around art, like I had my father was an artist, you know, bar Barb, marchand relative mentor, all of my family around me were artists and it was. It was a very nurturing environment in that sense of they seen it at. You know, probably as soon as I could probably pick up a crayon Right and and it was nourished Right, probably as soon as I could probably pick up a crayon right and it was nourished right.
Speaker 1:And for me I was lucky in that sense that I did still have those people. It wasn't maybe the process wasn't as it would have been, you know, with our ancestors, but it was still that same acknowledgement of like hey, we see this in you and like we're gonna feed this, we're gonna help, help this grow. And yeah, and I think of it when I do my youth projects you know we have so many amazing youths out there that are amazing artists. Yeah, and for one reason or another, sometimes it's just not believed in, maybe it's not nurtured, yeah, but it's there and all it takes is, I think, a few people to start to notice it and really speak to it in them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you see it come out in them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like all the different youth that I think I've mentored, they've all gone on to do like amazing things in different ways and shapes in the arts, right, and so it's like that.
Speaker 1:I guess maybe that in itself, even itself, is that like you're saying that instinctual part of you that's saying, hey, you see this in them, that's as an artist, that's your responsibility, right, you see this in them as an artist, that's your responsibility, right? Yeah, you know, chisek and I were sat down a few years ago by Eric Mitchell and his wife, chris Marchand, in our home and you know they were like you two, you know, come over here, sit down in front of us here, yeah, sit on the floor in front of us and we're going to talk. Yeah, okay, of us here. Yeah, sit on the floor in front of us and we're gonna, we're gonna talk. Yeah, okay, you know, and it, in that sense, it really did feel like, yeah, part of that was coming back, like like I was, you know, mid-30s or whatever and you know, here I am getting sat down in front of people and I'm like you know it was.
Speaker 1:it was amazing at the time because I just I felt like that little kid of like oh, here, finally getting that to get sit down and A little taste.
Speaker 2:Yeah, get this explained and stuff.
Speaker 1:And you know, they knew it, both of us as artists. They're like these are your responsibilities.
Speaker 1:It's a very important responsibility in community that you have to record things. Responsibility and community that you have to record things. You have to leave, um, a trail behind, like similar to you talking about being a tracker. Yeah, everything you found was from somebody like us at that time who wanted to leave something behind for people to follow. And and, you know, it's funny in that sense because it our responsibility isn't just to those here and now. It is about leaving something behind.
Speaker 1:So, when you know, I think we're in a better place now where I don't think we're going to be losing what we had lost, you know, over the last three generations.
Speaker 1:But, um, just in case, yeah, you know we're leaving these things for people to follow, in case, for some reason, the markings does go underground again, yeah, there is going to be all the work that you've done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know since. Yeah, finding your path on it, yeah, you know people are going to be coming in and the way we sat and looked at, yeah, maybe some of tate stuff people are going to be looking at, yeah, everybody else's thesis, who's done work in the field, and pick it up, and so it's a big responsibility and you know, that's why I say, as I started learning more and more, as we went in through that process of learning, and I started I don't know, maybe taking on a responsibility, maybe in some instances taking it maybe a little too deep than I needed to, yeah, but really being like I gotta do this right. Yeah, you know, like it how I've thought the process, as I shared in the beginning, how I thought of it, it continues to change as I continue to learn and grow. Yeah, I'm like, okay, wait a second, this has to change now because you know again, you're not holding space the way you should, or yeah whatever it may be as we grow, I find that our practice grows and evolves with time, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:100. I would say, you know, I think uh, part of that is also, uh, honoring who.
Speaker 2:You are right, that's just the way that you roll, so honoring that and letting it be right so, just yeah, allowing yourself to be who you need to be, but also, you know, I think that acknowledgement is of saying hey, it needs to shift and change is important, and one of the things that really brought me into being keenly focused on our ancestral marking and tattooing was seeing how it helped our people heal our identity and our disconnection to who we are. We grew up on reserve or off reserve, whether we grew up in families who hunted or didn't hunt, or any of those type of things that may affect us in a variety of ways was that our tattooing was a protective factor. That's the language I've learned.
Speaker 2:A protective factor against people exiting or taking their own life, and the reason I bring that up is because the thing we were just discussing was the process of believing in a youth or having at least one person given a shit about them and supporting them.
Speaker 2:And so, uh, yeah, I'm just putting that out there to those who are listening to.
Speaker 2:You know, if you have youth that are in your life, that you notice something special in, uh, take that keen interest in them and provide a bit of support, and you know that doesn't mean that you notice something special in, take that keen interest in them and provide a bit of support, and you know that doesn't mean that you have to do everything for them, but at least show that interest and help them, because I think that that is, you know, just another thing that we can do to help support our youth as they're going through that difficult time of finding out who they are as a human being, as an individual, as a community member, you know, as a person navigating the tumultuous time of youth. And so I just wanted to highlight that because, you know, I think that that's another way that we help those people who are coming is helping the people that are just behind us right, so you know it. Just reach that hand back and bring that youth or that individual along who just needs a little bit of support.
Speaker 1:I think that's important Totally, you know, I mean, I know in my time, you know I think that's for me, my time, you know, I think that's for me in certain aspects of life, you know, I definitely had mentors.
Speaker 1:You know, you barb, my father, um, michelle lockery, um, a number of people who again come in at different times that see something there, yeah, and are like they speak to it, you know, they nurture it and it, you know for me, without all of them I don't think I would be where I am today. I mean, I would have probably have still been in my life of addictions and who knows where, right and so understanding again how tough it is to grow up as an Indigenous person in a colonial setting. What we face as adults, you know, is tough enough. As adults, you know, we're only so equipped, even as adults, as adults. But looking at our children, you know, and being like man, you know there's so much that you have to go through as a young person that I think, even though we were there at that time and in that part of our life, going through it and surviving so many things that you know, when I think back as an adult, we're like yeah, how did we do this?
Speaker 1:But I think we, you know, becoming a father, I really realized how I had forgot some of that and really having to remind myself, you know, with our two sons of like, yeah, you know, you guys are just kids but you have to survive some pretty tough stuff, day to day and spaces, and so learning, you know, as a recovering addict, learning as a person who's on a healing journey, you know, and I'm so grateful to have a wife who really has helped me in that journey and really has called me on stuff and and and pointed out some of those areas of growth that need to happen. You know I can, I can sit there now and be like, yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know you need, you know you need some of these um reminders you know and and that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Like we need to speak to those good things in those youth. We need to remind them. Yeah, you know again, because our, our young ones, go out into a world that is is unfortunately, biased and racist, and they go into spaces and are bombarded, you know, with so many different lateral violences, and you know it's so amazing how resilient and I hate to use the word I always I don't like it because I don't think that we should have to be yeah, but again realizing how resilient our young ones are right. And I know, in my time sitting in chief of council, you know we often say you know we got to take care of them, but when it comes down to it, oftentimes we're so busy thinking of other external things that they do get forgotten, and so certainly coming in and speaking to a young person's gift can make the world of difference, I think in their lives Like I wished I would have had.
Speaker 1:You know, somebody at certain points in my teen years to pull me aside and, you know, tell me, smarten up, kind of. Or you know, not even smarten up but come in and say, hey, look, I see you struggling, I see you having a tough time. Yeah, you know you're yeah, and invalidate that?
Speaker 2:yeah, big time yeah, I think those are all uh, you know uh pretty, uh foundational things that you know, uh, you know that uh are really cool that come up. You know when we're exploring and having these conversations, because you know, we start with tattooing but we go on all of these amazing different side roads that actually help to support the work. And I think that was one of the reasons that I wanted to start this podcast is because I realized that the work that we do is not just to tattoo, it's to mark our people and to mark people. And you know and I say that because you know, I mark, you know our people, I will mark people, you know, from other communities, other nations, and then I mark non-Indigenous folks as well and I think each of those is supporting their own journey in wherever they want to do, whatever transformations they need to make in their own life and those transitions that they have to go through to help them, you know, move on from whatever that was into whatever they're becoming.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's like just these conversations help to support all of that work and inform so much of it, because I think there's some reflections that happen when we're doing this work and so you know when I think about that. I want to just do a little bit of a shift and expand our conversation a little bit into some of the visual artists, the work that you do as a visual artist, independent of your work as a skin marker. So do you want to just explore with me, maybe share some of the stuff that you do and maybe how that has changed because of tattooing as well? That might be something that's an interesting conversation to have as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, certainly I mean as a visual artist. Definitely this work and the research heavily influenced a shift in my artwork. Yeah, as a visual artist, as a painter, as a muralist, doing public art, I'm much.