Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Sacred Marks: The Power of Indigenous Tattoo Medicine with Megan Samms
#040 What if the act of tattooing could heal deeply internal wounds? Join us on The Transformative Marks Podcast as we uncover the profound power of Indigenous tattooing practices through our enlightening conversation with Megan Sams, a Mi'kmaq and Nlaka'pamux multi-talented artist, farmer, and beekeeper from Newfoundland. From Megan's first tribal tattoo in the 90s to her profoundly spiritual experience with Nlaka'pamux Blackwork, you’ll gain insights into how these practices mend personal and communal fabrics, creating a sense of wholeness and connection within the Indigenous community.
Listen as we delve into the significance of facial markings in Indigenous identity and healing. Through compelling personal stories, Megan illustrates how these markings externalize internal trauma, facilitating a process of collective liberation and a stronger sense of self. The narratives also reveal the resilience inherent in reclaiming cultural identity, overcoming the historical diminishment imposed by colonization, and reconnecting with family and community.
Furthermore, we explore the importance of collaboration and connection, reflecting on the impactful relationships formed during our journey. From the integration of traditional practices in modern tattoo shops to the ethical considerations in cultural tattooing, we discuss the transformative influence of intentionality and ceremony. Concluding with reflections on mentorship and the ethical practice of cultural tattooing, this episode underscores the necessity of embracing compassion and cultural ethics, and the role of every individual in contributing to a better world.
You can find Megan at:
Instagram @livetextiles
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts & We acknowledge the support of Arts Nova Scotia
So, yes, joy and resilience and all of these things. But as we've moved through it, it's also become about externalizing a deeply internalized pain and isolation it into something like touchable and palpable and going through it in a very physical way, which has worked for me, yeah. So that's been a big part of it and that's also made that more internalized struggle processable.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The Transformative Marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is dion kazas. I'm a hungarian, metis and intercutmuk, professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intlacotmoc skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:I'm Louise Megan Sams. I'm from the British Columbia here. I'm Renee Sams. I'm Jerry Sams. I'm from the British Columbia here. I'm Jean or Lytton in so-called British Columbia here. So I introduced myself in Mi'kmaq language just now, but my name is Megan Sams. I'm both a Mi'kmaq and an Anglican person. My mom is Renee Sams, my dad is Jerry Sams sams, my dad is jerry sams and uh, my, my mom comes from lytton, from uh, senamese, walkinson's and spintlum. My dad comes from godalisk or codray valley, yeah, in so-called newfoundland, and is sam's, and those were the halls youngs, and I live in my home community, which is also his home community. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm an artist and farmer and beekeeper and many other things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Cool. Yeah, so we are. You know we're here at the Inthakamukk Blackwork Roundup and you know we're stepping into this time of reflection and looking at getting the work done. Yeah, it was interesting. We were reflecting this morning at breakfast when all of us were together. It's like, oh, how do we first connect? And that was you had donated some works that you had created to one of the Earthline Tattoo Schools, to a fundraiser we were doing so. I kind of remember that was like the first time that I became aware of you and your work. So that's kind of interesting and what that probably was 2017, maybe, yeah 2016, 2017, somewhere in that area.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, that's actually thinking about that's quite a long time of being aware. It's also cool to think of like the reality of like the social media age where, like, sometimes you can get to know somebody, just, you know, by what they're doing, you know what they post up. But yeah, it's kind of cool to think about that. But then the second thing we were reflecting on is, like we started the work with your back piece. What in 2021?
Speaker 1:2020.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure, maybe 2021 I think and, yeah, the the end of that year, I think, because it was at the First Light Festival.
Speaker 1:I believe yeah, November.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it would have been, because I think in 2020 that would have been shut down, shut down, yeah.
Speaker 1:But we started talking about it in 2020,. I think, yeah, we did start talking about it in 2020. So I feel like it started there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then we had our first interview and all of that type of stuff. So, yeah, it's been quite of a journey to get that work finished. So just kind of take people on the journey of what that was like to receiving into comic black work. Yeah, that's a long answer. Yeah go for it. Okay, no, I mean, that's why we have this time, so take as much or as little time as you like.
Speaker 1:Okay, much or as little time as you like. Okay, I think, um, I was began becoming or yeah, I started becoming interested in tattoos and being tattooed as a youth. I was 12 years old, begging my mom yeah for tattoos and finally, when I was 13, she said yeah, and I got like a 90s tribal tattoo which is now covered with a click out book. But I was, yeah, so young and I had this draw to tattoos and tattoo work and it felt like the end of a severed thread, though.
Speaker 1:You know, after it happened it felt good, it felt right, but not whole, yeah. And from the age of 13 to when we started working together, I guess, yeah, I was getting tattooed every few months, at least once a year, yeah, and usually large pieces, yeah. And but never. Yeah, felt complete, felt like something, like I was getting there. You know, and then when we started working together, it's almost like a repaired thread and a greater fabric of myself, but also us. Yeah, yeah, more importantly, us yeah, yeah. Which felt more whole yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's cool and I love that metaphor because that is what you do. You know that is the work that you do in terms of you know some of your practice. So that's kind of beautiful to think of it in terms of that way of you know, referring to yourself as that fabric that just needed a little bit more tightening up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a little mending.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think of that too. Like something can be whole with a lot of gaps and fractures in it Doesn't mean it's any less complete right. Yeah. It's probably more complete. And textiles teach me that yeah.
Speaker 3:The practice of weaving, and yeah, yeah wow, yeah, that's cool, and I also like how you uh talked about it in terms of, you know, connecting us as community, as members of a society, like bringing that together, like that is what that is about. And when I think about the power and the value of especially doing this big work, is the amount of time that we get to spend with each other is like that time of just you know, sharing, visiting, you know bleeding, sweating, all of that stuff. Yeah, I wasn't gonna say that, I wasn't gonna call you out on that, but you can own it, um, but yeah, all of that stuff. That is the value of that, right um, is having that time to be able to mend also relationships in terms of communities, in terms of families, all of that stuff. Spending that time together is some of the value and I also say like for the podcast as well, that's part of it.
Speaker 3:For me is like getting to sit down with people and have conversations in person. Right, you know I have done one with Mo, but that's because of political unrest in India and stuff, I couldn't get a chance to connect with them. Eventually that will happen, but, yeah, for the purposes of the uh the exhibition, I had to do it virtually, but yeah, there is just so much value of being in the presence of another human being that is part of that healing. You know that this work does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like we're sitting across the table right now like eye to eye and you know we were just talking about having crossed each other's paths in 2016. Like that's approaching a decade yeah, crazy right to each other too, and like moving through that and like having various, even types of relationship, because the time's in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know. Yeah, that's cool. It is cool. I love that. Yeah, that's awesome. When you think of um, what was your draw to get the work done, when you first seen that application and everything come out and you were like this is what I want, what was that draw? What made you come into the project?
Speaker 1:I suppose I was thinking about that yesterday and I honestly can't remember what I wrote to you Because it changes so much, like it's such a like a time commitment and you think it's going to be one way. And it's like that in every decision in life. You know, we think about what it's going to be like and maybe romanticize it, but it's always something different, which is something I love about committing to a project or a work. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure at the time it was about resilience and like sharing the work and I guess that was part of it. Yeah, and reconnecting and claiming making like non-possessive claim. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But so, yes, joy and resilience and all of these things. But as we've moved through it, it's also become about externalizing a deeply internalized pain and isolation a deeply internalized pain and isolation. So taking that out and making it into something like touchable and palpable and going through it in a very physical way, which has worked for me, yeah, so that's been a big part of it and that's also made that that's more internalized, uh, struggle, processable yeah yeah yeah and yeah that's uh, yeah, I like how you phrase that in terms of like, receiving the work has been part of that.
Speaker 3:I don't know that I would say catharsis, but that ability to process some of that I don't know that I would say catharsis, but that ability to process some of that stuff right, has been the sitting there, getting the work done, going through the pain and the process in a physical sense has allowed you to process some of that internal stuff, which is some of the things I've really actually been, you know, reflecting on and, um, what would you say like, trying to understand how this work is, that tattoo medicine in so many variety of ways yeah you know, part of it is definitely that identity piece and then part of it is also like, not only the identity piece, but like the trauma of that disconnection, the trauma of like the uh, what we were talking about it last night.
Speaker 3:They a lot of times people will say it's imposter syndrome, but um danita was saying, uh, it's actually like imposter training for us as indigenous people yeah it's like no, but we like. This is who we are, this is where we're from, so we've been trained to feel that imposter yeah, right, that was intentional yeah, big time and so this work has the ability to move through some of that stuff which is just yeah. So I love how you articulated that thank you, yeah, and it's like it's.
Speaker 1:It's a little bit individual, but it's a collective liberation. Yeah, more the day you gave me my face marking the day after you gave me my face markings.
Speaker 1:I went to the airport yeah, I was getting on a flight back to Okta Khamgog and there was this woman in front of me in line and she kept looking back and she kept looking back and she had a mask on and I didn't, and she kept looking back and we got through the gate and we're walking onto the plane and she pulled her mask down and she was Inuit. And she was Inuit and she had markings and she said it's so nice to see you and, like, tell me about your nation and tell me about your markings. And this was a stranger. We you know. And she just said I am so proud of you and it was such a beautiful moment, like that pride and connection over being seen as who you are yeah, yeah yeah, that was uh.
Speaker 3:As I reflect on that, I remember, um, heidi harper lucero uh is from california and she was talking to me about like the some of the medicine, especially with the facial markings, is the ICU medicine. She referred to it like you know, being fully seen as who you are, yeah, and it's like just like that yeah you know, and so, yeah, I can totally see what you're saying in terms of like whoa and and the day after too right like that, like that's so cool, it was powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wasn't healed yet. You know, yeah, and yeah, you can't not see facial markings.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah, is there any other reflections you have in terms of, you know, receiving the marks and all of that process?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and all of that process, yeah, yeah, I feel like I've um, you know I've been, I've come more into myself, I would say like personally, but also collectively, and I have no, I'm definitely a more confident person through the process and just feel in my happily in my place. Yeah, and to continue finding that, however, that moves through time. But I think talking about that internalized, like internalized pains and isolation, those were intentional too. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And realizing you know that there I have been a bit dismissive over my life of them that they're not a big deal, they don't matter that much, like yeah, not, not important. But actually going through this work with you and listening to transformative marks and hearing other people's stories and practice and experiences, they're the same. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so it's not just me and that kind of confirms that intentionality from like a colonizer's side of making you smaller, making us smaller, making us smaller. And so, yeah, being able to acknowledge that, realize that, acknowledge it and just move past it, I guess has been huge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Just I'm reflecting on our first interview conversation and I can remember, yeah, I can recognize that you in some ways were kind of really resistant to positioning in some of those ways like cause you talked about the dismissiveness and I can remember that from that first interview. So it's interesting that receiving the marks and maybe having that I see you part of your everyday now helps you to maybe recognize or find a different relationship with some of those concepts, which is interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, and I've met family through through the process too and been able to visit here, yeah, more you know, in the context of this work, like when I visited through here been here before in merriton and lytton and kamloops it I've been I felt kind of alone because I'm coming through and and like my family was, yeah, intentionally disconnected from this place, like pretty diasporic relationships, so it was hard to kind of know and navigate where to go and who to yeah, you know yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3:That's the other thing that I was talking with simon about, just as we had our other in my last interview with simon is like that the unintended or unrecognized results or relationships or, you know, things that have manifested through this project have just been just crazy. Yeah, you know, like Simon, reconnecting with Wes and you know, reconnecting with family and all of that type of stuff, and then for yourself, in terms of being able to come back, as part of the project which is like, um, I don't know.
Speaker 3:It really speaks to the power of imagining things from that indigenous perspective where it's really about uh, not just about the creation of art, not just about the creation of, um, these markings.
Speaker 3:It's about something completely different when you step into it with those good intentions, things will happen that are magical. That we didn't intend, that we didn't manifest, that we didn't actually take the steps to do with intention, but the intention of doing it in a good way have resulted in these things yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's been like almost something we we can't theorize on or expect yeah yeah, it's cool, it is magic, that's the word, totally I would say and yeah, just the.
Speaker 3:And I think part of it is also that energy of it when I think about. Our first session was at the. What is the name of the gallery?
Speaker 1:Eastern Edge Gallery. Eastern Edge.
Speaker 3:Gallery. I thought that's what it was, but for some reason my mind went somewhere else. And you know, kind of every step of the way we've had various people documenting that process, step of the way we've had various people documenting that process. What was that process like for you of having somebody coming and documenting it all?
Speaker 1:so, yeah, there has been, and my mom has been with us quite a lot too, and that's something I want to. I want to talk about. A little also. Totally. The first person to document us working together was Daniel Smith. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And Daniel has become, and his partner Jody have become such close friends oh cool, and that was where we met. I was visiting him just a couple weeks ago. Wow, went to his birthday party dressed up like him. Yeah, visiting him just a couple of weeks ago and went to his birthday party dressed up like him and we like I feel like he's in my life now, you know, yeah, cause, and I'm not sure like if we had met in a different context, like we did click as people right away, but the context of that was so powerful.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, they're now embedded in my life, you know, wow, and vice versa. Yeah. So, and you know, daniel has met my sibling and met my mom and I've met his children, Wow, yeah, so that's been amazing. And Wes was documenting too. That's been amazing and Wes was documenting too. And I felt just an immediate connection to Chrissy and Wes and have stayed in touch with them and have made stuff for Wes too. Cool, yeah, it goes beyond this work like we were just saying I always end up coughing.
Speaker 3:Um, it's actually better when I'm doing the podcast, because when I'm like actually interviewing, I'm always trying not to respond because it's a podcast, I can respond because they can see me. Yeah, um, yeah, when I think about um, yeah, that is a cool uh reflection as well that, uh, those folks who did the documenting um, you know, in the beginning, like I said, I felt like it was going to be really intrusive to the experience of having that. But I think, because of um and just for your example, like I didn't choose daniel right, that's his name yeah, uh, to come, but just because of the people you know, for me I chose certain people to come and do that work.
Speaker 3:They actually enhanced the project, whereas I originally thought it was going to be intrusive right right, and so it's like something really powerful for me to also reflect upon is like how do I invite people into the spaces of marking that are actually going to contribute and support it? Yeah, right, um, in an intentional way, in a way that I would say like, uh, not only that has this project transformed the people that I've worked with, but also my own practice, like these are the things that I'm reflecting on, these are the things that I'm understanding, these are the things that I'm reflecting on, these are the things that I'm understanding, these are the things that I'm observing. So how do I then take those and help those things transform my practice, which is something I never thought would necessarily happen, except for the ability to mark in the way that I wanted to mark?
Speaker 3:But, it's like these other things that have been so foundational to the project, which, again, weren't necessarily intended to transform my practice in that way, but they have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, process, I guess. Yeah, you don't know what's going to come out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, who knows right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you had mentioned you wanted to talk a bit about your mom coming along.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bit about your mom coming along, yeah, so I I mentioned earlier that she's she's. She was born in victoria, her mom's from lytton, yeah and uh, her relationship has been a diasporic one, uh to place. But she, when we first started working together and you suggested working on my back, I had this sort of thought that you know, my mom sees my back all the time.
Speaker 1:It's going to be really powerful for her and it has been and that she's come to a lot of our sessions together, our time together, and put blankets on me and taking care of me.
Speaker 1:And she put Sav on my back for, you know, weeks after, cause the healing takes so long for me and uh, so she's been such a part of the process, but at some point it she she didn't say it, but she was like, oh, I think, I think I won't go this time and it became. It started to become more personal, like it was a fledging, almost, you know, yeah, like another fledging, like I moved out of her house when I was 17.
Speaker 1:Yeah know, we wrapped up, we had our last session and I was 35, fully in my adulthood you know, and it just felt like another fledge. I guess Wow. Yeah, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Um, yeah, it's been cool to have your mom come along and it was nice to actually come and visit you in your home and do some of that work there, right? Um, what was that?
Speaker 3:like you know, because we did the first sitting in uh gallery in the gallery right, like totally, uh, foreign, you know kind of place, but you know I've tattooed everywhere, so it's not too foreign for me, but not not the best setting. I would say, um, but yeah, we made it work. Um, but yeah, what was it like for me for you to come and do that work in your home.
Speaker 1:I could do that every day. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I felt like that was actually a dream. Yeah, yeah, so comfortable, and my home is solar powered. It's an off-grid home. It's very quiet. Yeah, yeah, setting up a table right in this. We built that house in 2020, right at the start of the pandemic, and it's really to be uh, and was intended to be, like our safe landing spot in the world. You know, yeah, and it is that. It's like you've been there. It's in, it's in the woods, it's really protected by forest all around it. It's on the south facing hillside, so it's most of our food from the air comes from the gardens there. The bees are there. Yeah, it's my little home landing spot and it just felt like a natural thing to be doing in the comfort of my safe zone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was so happy to have you there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it was cool to come and check it out, and also one of the joys, I would say, is also having you take me on to the land and to share some of those important family places of like hey, this is where you know my family was, this is where, I think it was, your dad grew up there, right was that? It was that right.
Speaker 1:Well, they actually live right across the road, but yeah, when we went out on the the cliffs yeah, that's called cape one cove and my great, great great grandparents are from there okay, that's what it was yeah, and I walk there every day yeah, it was so cool to see some of that stuff of that connection of land and visit that, so that was cool.
Speaker 3:That was one of the highlights for me. Yeah, um, and then it's interesting too to explore the differences for you, maybe, of the different places that we did the work. So the next place that we did the work then after that was actually here in Lac Lejeune, in the territories, and so what was it like to then, you know, maybe reflect on what that was like to come here and to do that work here?
Speaker 1:that was the last session that mom came to yeah, which is interesting, yeah because then having coming here together, uh, my mom and I to see you and to keep working together, that was also a pretty big session, I think, and being here, I walked a lot, drove a lot, visited a lot, visited my cousin on that trip. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And learned some family stories I didn't hear before, yeah, stories I didn't hear before, yeah, so it was, yeah, it was pretty impactful to be here in that way and I think it's probably something I'm still processing. I'm going to go visit some family again this time and I'll get to go see True Tribal in Vancouver at the end and go into the collections at the Museum of Vancouver, and there's actually some documents of my family there that. I'm going to visit at the same time, yeah, so I feel like that's just coming around actually.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow yeah.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, we did some sessions at the shop yeah in in halifax, so, or in bedford now, um, but yeah, what was that? You know? Can you reflect maybe on? You know all of those different places you know, of course this is like totally on the spot, but you know we could pick it up or not but yeah, maybe reflect on what. What it was like, because we've done this work in so many different places right, the gallery, your home, uh, airbnb in lac lejeune, and then, uh, in the tattoo shop hfx tattoo, uh, where I'm currently working in bedford. You know what was that experience like?
Speaker 1:So I think that's part of why our relationship feels so long too. Been all these places yeah yeah, but Bedford, being in Megamagi, felt like a greater. It's a greater extension of home, like I've been going through there my whole life you know, yeah, I, um, I know that area. Yeah, well, so like place wise, that is also home yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, in a different way, but yeah, being in the shop, I guess setting wise is.
Speaker 3:I've been spent a lot of time in tattoo shops so it was just like hey, yeah, this is a shop, this is a shop yeah, but bringing in your like, having your practice and making sure that we maintain ceremony and intention of the work.
Speaker 1:Um it's, it was different than walking into any old shop yeah and I've been in your shop with a friend of mine getting her work done too, and and that yeah yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's uh. I guess that's uh. I asked that uh because, yeah, I wanted to see how, of course, because it changes, or that movement between all of those spaces. But what I'm hearing is, like you felt that that uh, being in the shop didn't change the way that we had been working already no, no, not at all and, and I think actually probably changes a tattoo shop yeah more so than us yeah, I think yeah, yeah, big time in a good way
Speaker 3:yeah, that's a cool reflection Cause. Yeah, just because you've had that experience of being tattooed with this work and all those variety of places and then going to the shop and you know, uh, the reflection of how the work that we're doing changes the shop more than the work that we're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cool and I think like we as indigenous people, as Inquicum people, live in this very westernized world and we're doing medicine work and so we have to, like our land has been fucked and changed from coast to coast to coast to coast, so we have to maintain that practice in space, wherever we are not just in a tattoo shop yeah like I went for a walk this morning and I was jumping fences yeah so yeah we, we still have to. We have to do that every day everywhere, yeah, yeah, big time yeah yeah, that's cool all the
Speaker 3:time yeah, thanks for that reflection. Know, um, maybe I haven't had, um, oh, maybe, yeah, steven came to the shop and he's part of this project and yeah, uh, maybe I'll have to ask him again what that experience was like. But yeah, um, any other reflections of the project you know um, oh, we for your piece we did add some double curves and things. Yeah, that to folks who are indigenous, so adding motifs from their own communities, to continue that, not only my work as creating visual sovereignty for us as intercomic people, but offering people to embody some of the marks from their communities in a different way. So, yeah, that was kind of cool evolution of that thought in my own practice is, you know, doing that for you in terms of that hybridity of who you are.
Speaker 1:But you have the mix of those, uh, peoples that you are yeah, that was cool yeah, I think, um yeah, I've had some thoughts about that too, and that I'm eat so many nations of indigenous people like we're visitors and travelers and sharers yeah, that's a word so, yeah, like sharing our visual culture and our goods and but also um patterns and I think I heard Nahan talk about excuse me the octopus bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how that comes from Wabanaki territory. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But Tlingit, have that too on the complete other coast yeah. And so same bag, yeah. But that symbolizes for me like this sharing of goods and and ourselves, like there's also you know, you can, you can kind of you choose belonging and nationhood sometimes when you enter into another family or network. Kin network. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. My thought thread is dissolving a little bit. No, no, that's cool, I mean that's why we're just having a conversation right.
Speaker 3:Part of it's just exploring, Part of it's like, yeah, just sharing some of those things that we're reflecting on sometimes at the moment. So yeah. It happens to me all the time. I'm like I had a thought it's gone, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we too are often pressured, and this is total Indian Act stuff. But pressured to be just this, yeah, Pick one. Yeah. And don't. Yeah. You know you cannot add to that, deviate from that, become more than this one thing, oh, 100%, and that's personhood, community-wise, nation-wise, the job you do. Yeah. You know, yeah. And I think we're just not that. No.
Speaker 1:Like look at you. You, you do a million things, I do a million things. Who, who doesn't like? Yeah, the reality is, we all have to yeah yeah and want to, I want to I don't want to be that one.
Speaker 3:No, I don't, I am. That's what I was saying is reflecting on my dad. I think he worked at the sawmill for like I don't know, like 40 or 50 years same job, and my parents have lived in the same house since I was like three months old, you know. So it's like I don't know if I could. I don't know if I could do 40 or 50 years in the same job. You know different timeframe, you know different. I guess that also speaks of the privilege that I have. You know, maybe he didn't want to, but that's the things that he decided he needed to do. So, yeah, just interesting to reflect on that too. I don't know if I could do that. Yeah, takes a special person to do that, I guess. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, any other reflections or any questions, you know, because this is also an opportunity. If you have some things that have been percolating in your mind that you want to explore together, we could do that too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new. Consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:I do have a question. I do have a question. So for me over the past couple of years, like I, I it last year was at a crossroad of like okay, as a business owner do I my firm?
Speaker 1:business could be full fulltime all the time and or my work practice, as like both my creative practice, but could also be my full occupation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pick, you know, I could like kind of commit one way or another and, um, so I'm kind of letting go my my farm as a business, but still like maintaining lots of farming and beekeeping.
Speaker 1:But in my life and education has been very mentorship and experiential based. I haven't gone to university or engaged in academia at all university or engaged in academia at all, but I'm a researcher at heart through like doing and making and talking and visiting and going places and but also accessing what I can, um, what I do have access to in terms of archival stuff, uh, but in the past couple of years I have been, I have kind of a struggle with academia, I guess, and like museum collections and stuff, but I've been visiting them more and more through talking with you and seeing how you navigate. But I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the role of academia and academics, that how it gave you what you needed. I'm sure there's other people with the same question, because it's a system that's not necessarily accessible to a lot of us, like it's a privilege I didn't have growing up, but now I'm starting to come around to it a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's an interesting question because my mom and I were actually talking about this the other day, that she actually shared with me that when I was I don't know, in kindergarten or, like you know, in the early grades of school, they actually told my mom I was never going to be able to read.
Speaker 1:Holy shit.
Speaker 3:Right. And so we have that document written like oh he's, you know, a happy kid and blah, blah, blah, but we don't think he'll ever be able to read, right. And so the reality is I actually struggled through school. Part of that is like total ADHD, of like this is fucking boring. You know, I don't want to read this stupid book, right, you know all of that type of stuff.
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, but it wasn't until I was actually interested in those subjects that I started to succeed in those places. And plus, as I have continued, even though, from my own perspective, I find academia, scholarship, writing, all of that stuff challenging because it is its own system and it is a colonial system and they want things to be the way that they want them. And I also find that a lot of times, like a lot of the editors of these texts, they're actually asking questions to be extractive instead of just accepting what is being offered, right, like that privilege or that insistence that they have a right to know something, and like trying to push back against that. And so part of it is my work in those institutions. My work in gaining education has been to start to be able to fill those spaces in the way that I feel that they need to be done, and I would also say I have come to realize that not only are those degrees are important for some of us, because it helps to give us access to spaces easier and quicker.
Speaker 3:That helps to then forge a path for those who are coming after that don't necessarily have those same degrees, right, and also, because you know I've been to that spot, I can go hey, reach out to this person, right, these are the people you need to see, these are the people you need to visit. This is what you need to say sometimes, like here are some examples of how you get into that space. And then, yeah, insisting that we become our own storytellers, because the reality is is that somebody's going to tell the story, but it's important for us to tell that story because it's going to be truly ours like people walk into the true tribal exhibition, experience it completely different than any other tattoo exhibition they've been through and because it's actually embedded in the depth of those practitioners.
Speaker 3:Right, because those were conversations that I had with them. Those are conversations that you know I had with all of you as part of this project and people I've worked with throughout the time that I've been doing the work. It's like this isn't just some fun project. It's actually bringing making our voices visible to the world right.
Speaker 3:And lifting that up, and so you know I find academia and scholarship challenging. I've actually, like, started to reject that phrase or term as a scholar. I don't want to be a scholar because I have experienced what that is and what that looks like, but I am a born again coyote, and so my mission is to help transform the world, despite my own inadequacies, despite my ego, despite all that stuff, despite my ego, despite all that stuff, and to do that in a way that truly honors our practices, our way of teaching and sometimes getting into those spaces is important, then, also acknowledging and creating new spaces for us to talk about it. So, for example, one thing I've been thinking about to talk about it. So, for example, one thing I've been thinking about a way to begin to create a storehouse or an archive of written material about our practices in terms of those who are doing the work is by publishing the transcripts of the podcast, right?
Speaker 3:So I'm talking to all of these practitioners and so now, then that can be accessed as a written document, Right? So I'm like these are things I'm thinking about. It's like how do we start to create these things? Yeah, that will have like. Yes, it's important to put it on line.
Speaker 1:But you know these, you know, having it written is there's something different and unique about that? Yeah, something a little farther reaching maybe. Yeah, yeah, potentially potentially if social media flops.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if everything goes down, you'll still have those books, yeah, yeah, I don't know if I answered the question, but no, you did everywhere there, yeah.
Speaker 1:I like that. No, it does answer the question and I think, like I'm having an experience right now, that I'm working with Memorial University of Newfoundland on a research question project and they invited me in as a, as an artist and not a, not academic or scholar, which I think is really important. So I'm yeah, I'm kind of um thinking about my approach there, so that helps, yeah and.
Speaker 3:But I mean on the flip. I think it's also a challenge, because that term of scholar for some people does something. When you're talking to them. It may actually give you more access. Yeah. Right, and so I don't think. A lot of times I think people think of it as like prestige, but for me it's not necessarily the prestige of it. It's actually what it can help me to accomplish to help our people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and you bring people along the way with you. Yeah, you don't go alone. Yeah, yeah, totally. Always bringing people right. You are yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So yeah, it's interesting to think about some of that stuff, like, maybe it's a question of like, when do we use it and when don't we use it?
Speaker 1:How is it a tool?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we use it. How is it a tool? Yeah, yeah, big time. Yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it. When is that using that?
Speaker 3:term become a tool, yeah, for the work that we do yeah yeah, for community yeah, so yeah, I like that um, I think, um, as we kind of continue to move along, we've kind of like, skirted it, touched it. Come back is, uh, the work that you do, right, right. And so you've talked about the farm and then, uh, some of your work as an artist. So let's start to move in that direction. Tell me a little bit more about your farm and then also about your practice.
Speaker 1:I'll start with the firm. Yeah, it's little, yeah, and it's definitely a more regenerative style firm. I tend to a lot of crops that are, I guess you know, we raise a corn that is indigenous to the Great Lakes. There it's been raised for many thousands of years by Potawatomi and Anishinaabek people. I grow a potato that I got in trade that traditionally was traded between, I can't remember, peru and somewhere along the coast, west coast here, and I got it in trade and I've been planting and saving those potatoes for about 15 years, wow, yeah. And so the farm has a lot of food on it and a lot of medicinal plants, from, you know, different types of sage and elecampane for lung medicine, to valerian root for sleep, to hops yeah. And then a lot of dye plants, yeah, so from Japanese indigo to madder root, to dyer's coreopsis and chamomile and Dyer's chamomile.
Speaker 1:So it's not a very focused farm, it's not a commodity, a commodity based farm, yeah, and all of the plants are interplanted, so there aren't rows, with one thing, they're very much, and it's six acres. It's not all farmed or agriculturalized. There are areas that have beds in them. We also keep chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese, sometimes pigs, and planted an orchard last year, which was exciting. So peaches and apricots, which?
Speaker 1:is exciting. Apples, pears and hazelnuts yeah, and hazelnuts grow wild in our valley in Gatelisk, but they're a somewhat different hazelnut than the wild ones, wow. So fruit, tree fruit and nut vegetables, medicines, dyes and eggs, and bees, honeybees. So, and I like to. This will be my 16th year tending bees and over the past couple of years I've been thinking about and working with them a bit differently and instead of calling them colonies of bees, communities of bees, and thinking and working in such a way that, um, like they're an introduced species, so trying to work more with the responsibility of that yeah um, it's just a big one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because there's a lot of dialogue about in public dialogue and discourse about honeybees being, you know, our greatest pollinators. Yeah. And they are, that's true, but they're introduced. There's many thousands of colonies or communities of honeybees on Turtle Island territory where one apiary could have 10,000 colonies of bees, which is, you know, when you introduce 10,000 colonies, 80,000 bees to each community, then that's whatever the math is on that. But there are 50 species of bee in just on the island of Uxtahumgug in Newfoundland Wow. And so, but the forage hasn't changed. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when I'm introducing these honeybees, which are great, there's also 50 species of native bees, plus all the moths, plus all the other pollinators, and the forage is the same. So what you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, what is that yeah?
Speaker 1:And what's enough yeah like. So I'm somewhere around a dozen communities of honeybees right now and that's where it will stay. Yeah, yeah, um, and I've been teaching a bit of beekeeping workshops in the past couple of years to, uh like to, to neighboring communities, and I mentor probably four other beekeepers. Yeah, and I've been thinking a lot and teaching a lot about a decolonized method of beekeeping and changing their style of box too that they're kept in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because it's pretty European practice to keep honeybees, you know but there are pretty, very old methods that are that are, I don't know, friendlier to them, I think, than an industrialized vertical style of beekeeping. That's a whole like other thing, but so that's the farm and it's solar powered, which I mentioned, and my studio's there too. It's in my home community, which is quite rural and by times can feel, can also feel a little isolating in a lot of in some ways. So then, practice wise yeah I'm a weaver natural dyer.
Speaker 1:I've been making a lot of pigment and paint and yeah, um and yeah my and painting a lot more recently too, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess they're all. They all inform the other, like those are a lot of things to be at, but they they definitely are all interwoven.
Speaker 3:I would think I would say One thing, that one question that comes to mind is when you think of the project, of receiving the work, has that changed and transformed your practice? Or in any type of way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, have worked with a lot of different textile motif over time, and my great, great grandmother, I found, was a weaver, and I've made a body of work with her recently too, which was always a bit of a pipe dream. Yeah. But then doing this work with you, I was like, why does that have to be a pipe dream? Yeah, I can just do that. Yeah, so I did. Yeah, I can just do that. Yeah, so I did. Yeah. And have been showing that. Wow. Over the past year. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think I've felt more confidence to share my work in that way and to move beyond the function of textiles. Yeah. For a long time I was a painter, before I was a weaver I. When I got into weaving, I was really obsessed with the function of it and making something beautiful that's meant to be used. And I still am. I still love our baskets and, and you know, making making your world around you. Yeah. I'm still very much entangled with that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I also at the same time want to. I do make my materials and incorporate that into the work, and sometimes it's very much not functional but it serves something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've become more I would say happy in that process. Oh cool. Yeah, wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's cool. So maybe talk a little bit about the type of weaving and textiles that you create, because you know what you're doing, isn't you know? Maybe not everybody would have a context of what you're actually doing in the process and all of that stuff yeah, so I'm also a spinner.
Speaker 1:I spin yarn from time. I don't don't weave with my hands on yarn very much, yeah, um, simply because of time, but it, um, I weave everything from like a washcloth size textile to blankets, and I'm most interested in blankets right now yeah uh, and I've woven on most styles of looms yes I have a vertical raven's tail style loom that I weave on sometimes.
Speaker 1:I have two floor looms that I work on. One is called the counterbalance, one's called the counter marsh, one's made in Quebec, one's made in Sweden. Yeah, I use those very often. I've worked on ankle looms, I've worked on frame looms. Yeah, I've worked Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, often I've worked on ankle looms, I've worked on frame looms, I've worked, yeah. So I've done any and every style of weaving, tump line weaving. I work with um heddles to make tump line cool I teach tump line weaving yeah yeah, yeah, and I dye every yarn I use before I weave with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sounds like um in a lot of ways as well. I know that you do a lot of mentorship as well, so why have you found that to be important?
Speaker 1:That teaches me how to be a beginner. I personally get better at each stage. Yeah, weaving is a very slow and a process itself. It's not instantly gratifying. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's so many steps, um, but mentorship, it's, it's, it's a model I believe in, that's outside of academia, as we were just talking about. It's very, um, like cell or driven in a partnership kind of way, um, and it's led by the apprentice, it's led by the mentee, yeah, which reminds me how to be in relationship. I love that about the process of working with someone and collaborating. I'm a collaborator, I almost never work alone. Yeah, or sometimes. I do, but I'm not as proud of it.
Speaker 1:So it's. I also really, I would say, love anarchy in a lot of ways, yeah, but you know, when we're burning something down, you got to build. You got to build up in the way that you are imagining it can't be imagination all the time and I think mentorship is that. It's reclaiming education, teaching, sharing generosity. It's embodying those things, because I've been a mentor in paid capacities, but nine times out of ten yeah I'm giving it away yeah because I think we have to do that for each other and whatever we're building up yeah, big time yeah
Speaker 1:yeah cool hopefully that wasn't too theoretical.
Speaker 3:No, no, it was awesome. No, I think I think it's good. Yeah, yeah, no, I think mentorship is such an integral part of the work that I do as well, right? In terms of bringing people along and finding the right people to hold that right. And when you find that person you know, invest in them. So, yeah, I think I would agree with you. It's just that's the way that you, uh, begin to create the future yeah, right, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1:It's um such a it's beyond a two-way gift, it's. It's a gift that's spread so far. You know, I recently taught a pigment making workshop and gave away a couple years of research of pigment making from dye plants and wrote about it like detailed every recipe made a palette, gave that away and then taught a workshop and I just felt like there's 15 people here, how many people are they going to teach you?
Speaker 1:know, and this process is. I heard from a few of the students that they'd been wanting to learn this, couldn't find anything about it, and what they did find was so steeped in an inaccessible language and and it's.
Speaker 3:It's not hard, it's yeah, it doesn't have to be written like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, yeah and so I'm just so excited about like 15 people learning that. How many more are going to be able to do that? And like take their material gathering process back into their own hands, like it should be common knowledge.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would say like yeah, I guess that really what would you say gives evidence to the reality of that anarchy principle. Yeah. Of like yo, like you, don't got to be like spending all this cash on this stuff. It's there.
Speaker 1:It's right there, yeah, you have.
Speaker 3:You can create it Right and you don't have to pay for it. Yeah, right, so that is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like commoning the knowledge and the practices.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that is sovereignty as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time, because you don't have to be relying on that system to do the things that you feel called to do. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Do you have any other reflections, thoughts, ideas coming up about any of this stuff that we have explored as we start to kind of wind down?
Speaker 1:No, but I feel really excited, yeah, but yeah, I don't think I have anything right now.
Speaker 3:Oh, I think yeah, because we're at the Inthacomic Blackwork Roundup. We haven't really talked about that. You know what has, um, you know what has? You know, of course we're just at the beginning, at the start of it, but like when you think about this gathering and us being able to share together what goes in your mind, I'm uh, uh, I'm really happy to be here and just be visiting and kind of talking and sharing what we've all just been through together.
Speaker 1:But we haven't all been together yet though in one place. I'm excited for that. It doesn't feel like a wrap-up for me, though.
Speaker 3:No, no, it's not no, but yeah, it's just kind of yeah. Starting to tie off the end of this piece before we move into the next.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it's that thread coming together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time. Yeah, no, I think we've had a good conversation and so I just want to thank you for visiting with me on the Transportive Marks podcast. It's awesome to be able to bring in those people who are wearing the work as well as people who are doing the work. You know, I think we've been exploring the potential of sharing me, sharing and mentoring you and you know, becoming a skin marker so that's exciting, that's very exciting. And you know, becoming a skin marker so that's exciting, that's very exciting. But, yeah, and you know, part of that is also maybe a lesson for those people who want to get into skin marking and they want to learn from somebody is find a way to build relationships with those people you want to be mentored by. Yeah, build relationships with those people you want to be mentored by. Yeah, because for me, uh, part of that is experiences in the past of having people just coming in and sharing in that more western construct where it's like I don't know if I really wanted to share this with that person, right, uh, just because and some sometimes they're just unsafe people sometimes, um, maybe at the time in their life that they gained that knowledge, they weren't, uh, the right person to hold it. So for me, really, as I'm moving forward, it's like finding those people that I know we're gonna hold it in that good.
Speaker 3:And I would say, when I talk to a lot of the people that I mentor is a lot of times people will come up oh you're gatekeeping. I'm like, yeah, I'm fucking gatekeeping because that's my responsibility in this case and in this instance. And so part of that is I say that to lift you up and to say that you know, I see the value and the way that you do the work that you do and the way that you hold it. So I'm lifting you up and to say that you know, I see the value and the way that you do the work that you do and the way that you hold it. So I'm lifting you up in that and saying that you know that is the reason why I've agreed to.
Speaker 3:You know, start to explore the possibility of mentorship is because of who you are and the way that you hold the work that you do, the way that you care for people, all of that stuff right. But it's a lesson for those people out there who want to get into the work is find ways to support the people that you want to learn from so they can find out who you are right, because we don't know who somebody is until we've had time spent time with them, and that's the only way that some of us will actually give that knowledge away now, just because of the experiences that we've had. So in part, that's lifting you up. In part, that's also like saying to people out there is, you know, that's a lesson yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited about our conversation about mentorship and what it can look like to as a model and I think, yeah, fuck, yeah to gatekeeping that, because there's no quick giveaway. There's no quick answer and you're talking about relationship in what you just said. You and multiplicity of relationship, like not not someone you meet once, but like from here to however long the relationship is and as it changes over time and, yeah, and all the people that come in and out of yeah that yeah, yeah, big time yeah, it's, it's a time commitment and thank you, dion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 3:And over the next week's episode, where I talk to Sheldon Louie, a Sioux or Okanagan artist, and in this episode we talk about the reality of acting in an ethical manner in the cultural tattooing space as well as the professional artist space. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.