Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Canoes, Culture, and Tattoos: Navigating Heritage with Stephen Recalma
#038 Transform your understanding of cultural heritage and personal growth through the lens of Indigenous tattooing. Join us as we feature Stephen Recalma and his journey with the Nlaka'pamux Blackwork Project. Stephen opens up about his journey through the extensive process of receiving a full bodysuit tattoo inspired by his ancestral roots. Listen to his heartfelt reflections on the emotional and physical trials he faced, and learn how patience, acceptance, and internal healing became integral parts of his transformative experience. Dion shares the project's mission and the challenges encountered, including an unforeseen COVID-19 interruption.
Discover the deeper meanings behind traditional patterns like the fly pattern, not just as artistic expressions but as profound cultural symbols and personal emblems. These designs serve as prayers and reminders, impacting the wearer's life in multifaceted ways. Through our engaging conversation, you'll gain insights into the Indigenous perspective of context and multiple meanings, contrasting sharply with Western interpretations. We stress the importance of documentation and community involvement in preserving these cultural practices, emphasizing their significance for both personal reflection and communal archival.
Our discussion also touches on the interconnectedness of art, culture, and ancestral knowledge. Stephen's roles as a canoe skipper, archaeologist, and community leader bring a rich tapestry of experiences to the table. Hear about the intuitive skills required for both skipping canoes and tattooing, and how understanding physical, emotional, and spiritual states is crucial in both realms. Tune in to be inspired by the depth of cultural connection and personal development shared in this episode.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
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I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts & We acknowledge the support of Arts Nova Scotia
Reflecting on our first session back in Salmon Arm and hitting my knee like that one's forever gonna stick with me because we're going away on my knee and I'm like I got five minutes left. My legs are just shaking like crazy and then that was it. I had to tap out and I couldn't do another day.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian, métis and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Inca comic skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Stephen Rekalma. My ancestral name is Mali, das I come from, the Kuala Lumpur First Nation on Vancouver Island.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So, just for everybody who's listening, we'll do a. This is just going to be a bit of a different episode than the ones that I've done in the past, because Stephen is not a tattoo artist or a cultural tattoo practitioner, but actually a participant or a collaborator in my Inthakatmuk Blackwork project, and so the Inthakikamuk Blackwork Project is a contemporary manifestation of Intikamuk and interior Salish tattooing, and so I had a vision of creating a contemporary Intikamuk tattoo practice that honors the visual language of my ancestors. Do this project, I recruited 18 people to receive body suits, full sleeves, leg sleeves, torso suits, back pieces, etc. Just to highlight and to bring forward what I was trying to imagine, because a lot of time as a tattoo artist or a cultural tattoo practitioner, people won't get something unless they see it being worn, and so part of the project was to show people what I was imagining, and I would also say part of it was to learn. You know part of it was a learning process because, you know, I guess nowadays you do have people doing seminars in terms of like, uh, how do you lay out a bodysuit, how do you do this bigger work, but you know that's just within the last year or so.
Speaker 2:I've been seeing that and so for me it was like, okay, how do I do this and what steps do I need to take?
Speaker 2:And so, uh, concurrently with that project of Inthac McBlackwork the one that you know Stephen has a bodysuit from I was also researching Intacap Mc designs, patterns and motifs, bringing that forward so as the what would you say, the lexicon of the visual language that I'd be using in the Intacap McBlackwork project, that I'd be using in the intercom of Blackwork project. So I just wanted to give people a sense of like why we're talking if you're not a, you know, a tattoo artist, yeah, um, so yeah, that's just a bit of background in terms of, uh, my conversation uh with Stephen today, in terms of uh receiving his intercom book Blackwork bodysuit, um, so I guess what we are I would say maybe like 85 done your bodysuit. So we're just coming to the end of that um, steven actually flew out here uh from vancouver island to do two days on his ribs. So, um, yeah, I guess, just tell me the journey of what brought you to want to get this work and what was that process of like stepping into it um, it's been a wild, wild journey.
Speaker 1:Um, I remember I was very drawn to have a devil's club tattoo around the time just before we started and, um, echo came back and was covered with her starting of her bodysuit and I was like, oh my god, like this is wild, like how can I be a part of this? And so I sent in my application and you got back to me like fairly quick, yeah, and you're like, well, I got one left and it's a body suit. And I was like whoa, like okay, let's do it, not fully realizing like how much would be complete. Yeah, and it's not just the, um, the visual basketry pattern designs all over my body, it's like the internal healing work that's really gotten done too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, uh, when you say that, um, I guess let's start with you know, what has it been like? Uh, because the reality is is that you know, we've tattooed you in, you know, I don't know, maybe like five, six, seven different places. You know, I don't know, maybe like five, six, seven different places. You know, uh, throughout the journey of working on getting your bodysuit done, um, you know, I guess part of that journey has been one of this, one of the times we had what four days set for us to work on your bodysuit and then we got COVID, yeah, and we had to like cancel that whole trip. So each of us traveled Stephen came from Vancouver Island, I came from Nova Scotia, and we met in the middle and at that time both of us got COVID and we had to like halt.
Speaker 1:And so you know, it's been quite of a like up and down journey to get this work done yeah, um, I was just speaking with keith last week and I was like man, I feel like kind of a burden because I haven't gotten any, like I'm not done yet and it's supposed to be done. And he's like just go with it, like it's gonna get done, how it's gonna get done. And um, that's just the with it. Like it's going to get done how it's going to get done, and um, that's just the way it is. Yeah, so learning to accept that that process of like sure there's going to be some setbacks and that's just in life in general. So, uh, we just go with it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. Uh, I think it's a good point to bring forward. Is that, um, you know, a lot of times people will reach out and they want to get work done, whether that's you know ancestral marks with the hand poke or skin stitch, you know face markings, whatever, or you know other ancestral markings with the machine, um, and I'll always be like you know what if it's meant to be it'll happen, and it'll happen when it's supposed to, so let's not worry about having to, um, you know, rush it Right.
Speaker 1:Um, and so, yeah, what has been that journey of you know, uh, getting the work done for you? It's just been a journey, like that's it. Um, all the places that we've traveled to within the past I think it's been two years now um, it's brought me places with you and with, like, joining other people, uh, that I never thought I would cross paths with, and, um, it's just an amazing experience. Yeah, yeah, it's just a journey, that's all you know when you, when I think about that.
Speaker 2:You know you said uh earlier and of course, uh only if you're in as much as you're comfortable. But you said you know it's not only the external. You know transformation of your body in terms of uh, wearing these design symbols and motifs, but it's also an internal journey. You know transformation of your body in terms of wearing these design symbols and motifs, but it's also an internal journey. You know what do you mean by that? Can you say a bit more?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think suppressing trauma, feelings, emotions, has been huge and it's helped me be able to recognize those and release them and and also speak to my healing journey. As well as these patterns on me, the fly pattern has been huge. Yeah, just using my voice more and speaking up, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:That's the one thing I did want to explore with you a little bit, because, you know, we'll always be chatting on the phone or whatever, and you're like, oh, you know, that fly pattern really was speaking to me today, right, and so you know I don't know if I've shared before, but that comes from a seal or Okanagan story.
Speaker 2:You know how food was given and you know, sometimes I'll share stories when we're doing the work, and I will share what these patterns are, because a lot of times people think they're just patterns and the reality is is that each pattern is picked for each individual with specific intention, and sometimes that's not necessarily, you know, conscious to me and my intention, but the pattern is chosen, uh, for the wearer and you know, it seems that that uh pattern, that fly pattern, is really one that resonates with you and I find that is so true that you know, uh, people will, even people who have picked, uh, what would you say, um, just like a design that I have available, unavailable design and then I tell them the story and they're like, oh, like this, so fits. You know what I'm going through and what my life is and my journey, and so when I design these body suits or these pieces, it's with intention to help you to tell your story, uh, your life's journey. And also, I would say, sometimes there are prayer some of those patterns, because sometimes you need to be reminded that you need to use your voice, right. And then, with the fly pattern, it's also sometimes you need to realize that you got to listen to that annoying voice as well, right? So there's so many layers in terms of what these patterns mean and how they interact with your life, yeah, and so I just wanted to ask you you know what, um, what has that been like wearing that fly pattern? And tell me more about when you say I've been using my voice like, uh, what does that mean for?
Speaker 1:you. It's been really cool, because before I would just like suppress my voice. I'd be like, no, I'm just going to sit back and I'll just let things happen and I won't say anything and then with just, it can be my family, it can be anyone. I'll be like you can't be saying that, like that's not right or like that, if that's something that I see that is wrong, um, but sometimes I'll bring something up. I'll be like no, like, if we do it this way and it's just more um, more positive, I would say yeah, um, and not just for myself, but for others around me who are listening or willing to listen yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:Going back to what you just said about our, the designs um, it's wild to me about how many different meanings my bodysuit has. Um, like my legs and the bows of the canoe and the ripples coming off is crazy. As well as like a snake moving, moving around, um, as well as lightning, um, yeah, it's just really cool like the many different meanings, for it can be one pattern but it can mean different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's such a yeah, it's a good point to bring up, because, you know, part of this podcast is to help uh people learn and understand, and I think this is a good uh way to share about. Uh, you know the patterns a lot of times. You know, uh, the colonizer the european anthropologist came and they would ask you know, uh, the colonizer, the european anthropologist came and they would ask you know, uh, what does this pattern mean? And somebody would say, oh, that's lightning. Somebody else they'd ask, oh, what does this pattern mean? And somebody would say, oh, those are ripples in the water. And then they'd ask somebody else, oh, those are steps going up the mountain. And they'd be, like what do you mean? This is lightning ripples and steps going up the mountain. And they'd be like what do you mean? This is lightning ripples and steps going up a mountain.
Speaker 2:Like it's one thing or the other. Like you know, a lot of times that is a indication of like, that western understanding of it has to be one thing and it is only one thing. Like there is, like you know, that goes back to. You know, uh, european philosophy, greek philosophy, all of those things of like, and I would even say you know it goes back to christianity. That god is, you know, the all-knowing, all-being god, and you know that's where you know truth comes from. But the reality is, when we talk about and we think about it, it's context. Right, we understand that the pattern can have a different meaning based on the context of who the viewer is. Yeah, you know what's happening in life and so, uh, that's one thing I always share about our patterns and our designs and our symbols.
Speaker 2:You know, that's one of the reasons, uh, that the uh, you know, one of the reasons we were called ignorant and savage and dumb is because we couldn't figure out what our patterns meant right but the reality is is that we understand that we have subjectivity and it can be multiple things at the same time, based on who's looking at it, based on who's interpreting it, and I would even say, uh, especially with you know, uh, body marking, uh, it could mean something different on a different day, exactly, so you'll look down and you'll be reminded of how much of a badass you are when you're skipping the canoe, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Or um, when you, uh, you know one day you'll remember, ah, you know there's a bit of that lightning, that that's coming out right. And then it's interesting when I think about that in terms of like, uh, you know, you said that, you know suppressing some of those, that voice, and so you know that comes out in the lightning right, because eventually that pressure has to be released at some point.
Speaker 1:And so, remembering that these are lessons that guide your, your journey point, and so remembering that these are lessons that guide your, your journey totally. And I also like going back to what you just said um, depending on which territory you're in, too, like that's going to mean something totally different and it can mean something different for this specific body of water or this river or this lake, like um, and so it's really cool to reflect on Inca K'atma, like basketry and patterns and motifs, and then, going back to home in Pentlatch territory, it's just really cool to. It's like bridging nations is what it's essentially doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's cool, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, it's cool, yeah, yeah. So what has been, uh, your journey with, uh receiving the marks? Because it's not only like part of it is that internal journey, but part of it is also like being uh. Well, I guess really what I'm thinking about when I'm trying to articulate the question is pain. What has been your journey with the pain of receiving? Like you know, a lot of people will sit for, you know, a couple hours an hour and that's all they can do. But you know you've been on quite a journey to navigate that experience of being in the pain. Yeah, so you know what has that been like, because you know it's pretty much. You know I would say, once we're done, it's going to be. You know, 80 of your skin is probably going to be covered.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right yeah, um, reflecting on our first session back in Salmon Arm and hitting my knee Like that one's forever going to stick with me because we're going away on my knee and I'm like I got five minutes left. My legs are just shaking like crazy and then that was it. I had to tap out and I couldn't do another day.
Speaker 1:I think, we did two days, maybe Day and a half, really, yeah, um, but compared to where my, my relationship with pain is at now is completely different. Um, I think the the drive to complete this uh body suit is a lot higher. Um, from the beginning to now, um, and the relationship with pain is like is very great because it's really helping me push through. Um, in completing this um yesterday, like not thinking that we could even finish the shading on my left rib, like not happening, yeah, but also Robin messaging me about 90% of my Ross family ancestors being born here and saying that my ancestors are here present with me, which I already knew, but not on my mom's side.
Speaker 1:So that's really cool and really helped me push through oh, that's cool um, yeah, that was really cool to and she messaged at the right time. Yeah, um, maybe that was the day before, but still it really helped me push. Yeah, um, um, maybe that was the day before, but still it really helped me push. Yeah, um, also, just coming out here to this territory and be like it really helped me, um, maybe persevere through through the pain of like let's get this done. Yeah, um, the lack of no sleep yesterday I was like I don't know if today is going to be the day, but my pain tolerance is huge now yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool, uh, you know, uh, we did uh just remind I thought you were probably going to go there for the little me.
Speaker 2:This is, uh, five minutes left, yeah, and it was like for those of you who are like watching, you know, it was like just the tiniest little bit and I don't even think it was five more minutes. No, we did like maybe a minute and a half and you're like nope, I'm tapping out, we're done for today. Yeah, and it was so funny. I just remember, you know, you know what.
Speaker 1:You had, that little bit, you know, like a little hill of a patch of ink on your knee, and you sat with that for maybe a year or something you know like eight months, maybe six, eight months, yeah, and I just remember every time I'd see you, you'd tell me the story of like you telling people that story that, hey, this is five more minutes's right here, yeah, yeah, and it was cool to um even share that at the shop yesterday maybe it was within the past couple days, but, being like I could only do five minutes on my knee, and then I lift up my knee and they're like, oh shit, like that's done, yeah, so that's a nice feeling. Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 2:uh feel I bet you it was like a cool feeling to like actually get that knee completed, and you're like and then you yes, you still have the story, but you're not reminded of that time where you're like nope, I only got five minutes Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like it must've felt empowering to get that.
Speaker 1:Extremely and and it's like all over my my body now it's like I can only do like how much more time, not much. All over my my body now it's like I can only do like how much more time?
Speaker 2:not much, but it's like let's keep going yeah, so yeah, and I think that's maybe like a valuable way to look at that as well is to go like only focus on the next minute. Yeah, right, like okay, I got it, I'm going, I'm going and going and yeah, and then that will add up, and so you know, when steven's talking about that, you know it's actually his whole rib and side and then onto the hip. That we did, uh, yesterday and the day before, so we matched those two up. So you know it's like a good five, six hours of tattooing on, uh, the ribs and torso. So you know it's a lot of work and a really, really painful spot, you know, up into the armpit. Even so, it's a good push. So it's pretty cool for me and exciting to see you, you know, uh, doing that progression of like being comfortable in that discomfort.
Speaker 2:Because I think a lot of times in our lives today you know when I think about uh, you know a lot of times our tattooing have to do having to do with coming of age ceremonies, with fasting, you know all of those things which were processes that our ancestors created for us to go through discomfort and to realize that we could make it through that discomfort. I think a lot of times people, with whatever they're doing whether that's exercise, whether that's getting a big tattoo, you know it could be any number of different things that are uncomfortable and create discomfort and pain they can't see themselves getting through it. And I think it's just such a valuable metaphor for life that, yes, it's going to suck, but you can get through the suck and you're going to make it through that time. It's like that. You know that pain cave, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to suck, but it's only temporary, right like, yeah, you can sit in it for as long as you want, but you gotta get out of it at some point yeah so it's nice to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just get through yeah, um, is there anything else? When you think about the tattoo project, you know, the wearing of the marks, the getting of them, any of that stuff that you want to explore or talk about, or you know, I would say even, like, if you have questions for me, because for me this is like a conversation, you know, it's not just an interview. So you know, if anything comes up for you to your mind of like hey, what do you think about this? Or like, hey, I wanted to talk about this, feel free, cool, go ahead and you know, and you know whatever, yeah, um, it's really interesting growing like, yeah, growing up in a predominantly white town.
Speaker 1:Um, the town of qualicum has a teepee on their crest, on their town crest, so they don't know a whole lot of indigenous history, um, but when I'm in that town and I'm walking down the street, it's wild to see the way that people like will look at the tattoo of my body when it's whenever it's exposed and, um, they don't fully understand it. Um, so it's really interesting to be in that town, yeah, and sometimes people will ask, like, what does it mean? And I'm like I don't have time for this, like I don't want to make time for some people, um, because, um, they don't care, like they're they might be curious, maybe they care in that moment, but, um, yeah, it's a really interesting experience to be in that that town yeah, sparks in my mind just comes.
Speaker 2:You know, uh, because you traveled uh with me and uh the crew we took to new zealand, to aotearoa, for the 2023 toikiri Indigenous Tattoo Festival and also came along to do some documentation for the True Tribal Exhibition. He did some videography for me in documenting Julie Pama Pangali and Terhi Kolamatangi doing their work, and so what was it like being in a place of predominated by indigenous people with markings, you know, because it's a different experience. It just sparked in my mind because you're like, you know, when I'm back home, you know, in uh, qualicum, you know it's a pretty, pretty vanilla town.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But when you were in Altaderoa and we were, you know pretty much everybody we were hanging with is fairly heavily marked. So what was that experience? Like you know, comparing and contrasting those hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new. Consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording Season 2. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:It was a beautiful experience that whole time being around Indigenous artists of all sorts, not just tattoo artists, they could be drawing, they could be painters, they could be instrument makers. Just seeing how vast those people are and how everyone comes together and celebrates their art, their talent, their work is amazing. It's a very uplifting experience. Yeah, um, yeah. And also going back to like the videography and like photography has been huge for me, because it's something that I never saw myself getting involved in. Um, but you really helped put that trust in me in being able to operate a camera, being able to have a video camera, just a camera for stills. Even the drone.
Speaker 1:That was a huge thing for me is when you were like it's just a drone, if you crash it, you crash it. But it really sparked a lot more for me to document. I still don't as much as I should, but it's really important to document. Yeah, um, because wherever we go, like, we can see these, these unique experiences. But are these unique people? But also in our own communities, um, we have a lot of people who are going to have a story that might not be there. Yeah, um, for much longer.
Speaker 2:so, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's uh interesting, it sparks in my mind. I was uh over the past. You know, a couple months I've been going through my archive of different videos and photos that I've taken. You know, know, in my journey with ancestral skin marking and you know, seeing the video of me when I was in Samoa or New Zealand, or even back home at Lower Nikola, you know, doing different tattoo events with community. You know, tattooing some of the elders and the knowledge keepers on the land.
Speaker 2:It was pretty cool to be able to take that memory lane. You know, go down that memory lane because I have documented so much of this journey. So, yeah, it just sparks in my mind the importance, especially as practitioners, because I always say, you know, like these interviews, the footage that we capture, it's really like an archive for our community. Yeah Right, and so you know, if you're a practitioner, if you're an artist, if you're someone, uh, who was doing work for your community, you know take the opportunity as best you can to document it. You know, sometimes, to be honest, it gets a little bit uh arduous, a little bit uh uh overwhelming sometimes, because you're experiencing everything through a camera lens.
Speaker 1:So that was my own experience of always documenting everything, so it's like finding that balance between documentation and also enjoying the experience, enjoying the day right yeah, yeah, it's been really cool to like to follow you with the camera lens and, uh, these are other artists as well, because for one person to do that, that's a lot of work. Yeah, um, and when you bring a crew in and give them those tools to be like, yo, you got this. Yeah, like here, try this, uh, it's really uplifting and I feel like it's been that way throughout this whole journey is very uplifting. Yeah, um, I even think of like sometimes we're doing sessions and I'll be standing on like a windowsill or something like getting like what I think is a great angle. Um, yeah, and it's, it's really cool. Like I haven't even seen any of the pictures or the video, but yeah, it's gonna be cool to see some of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it probably feels good to uh. I mean, it will probably feel good when you're like oh, that was me. Yeah, I captured that, I got that shot. Yeah, it'll probably feel pretty cool, especially going from what a couple of years ago now. Uh, you know, you didn't have experience holding that camera and I would say, probably a lot of fear around you know, uh, you know holding it and doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, with what you just said is like I had fear within myself as well, like that lack of self-confidence, um, and this this project has really helped bring out a lot of confidence within me and help alleviate that fear and self-doubt. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool. You know there's a few other things that I want to kind of veer away from the tattoo stuff, because I think you know this podcast for me is not only talking to people connected to tattooing, tattoo artists Uh, you know I'm going to move into interviewing some artists and stuff like that, but I think you have some other experiences that people will find really interesting. And you know, when I think about, uh, you know, the one that's most closely connected to the work that we've done is I came out to Qualicum and we did some of the sessions out, you know, in your territory, and you took me out on the land and we did some harvesting of Devil's Club, a traditional ancestral medicine, and so you know what has that journey been for you in learning some of those things. And then also, you know what was it like going out on the land and doing that. And you know I do have to hold you up and I thank you for taking me out on the land and showing me that knowledge, because you know it really is a beautiful gift to get some of that knowledge.
Speaker 2:A beautiful gift to get some of that knowledge and, you know, even being able to harvest it and to build a relationship. You know, that's the one thing that you really instilled when we went out there. You know, it's not just about harvesting this, it's actually about building a relationship with this plant. That's right. And so, you know, we're not wearing gloves, even though Devil's Club has a few little pokies. Yeah, but you're like, no, this is about. You know, we're not wearing gloves, even though Devil's Club has a few little pokies, but you're like, no, this is about, you know, building a relationship. And you can't build that relationship when you're wearing gloves. Right, you're disconnecting yourself from it. So, yeah, do you want to?
Speaker 1:talk a little bit about that. Yeah, that kind of ties in with the pain, right? Yeah, pain with tattooing. Because pain with tattooing, um, because that was a a beautiful experience getting you, getting you to come out to the territory and on the land to harvest some medicine, um, and my uncle is the one who who taught, who taught me about not wearing gloves with harvesting devil's club, um, which I thought was wild. And then you just do it. Yeah, you just grab that plant and you speak to it, you tell it who you are, where you're from and what your purpose and intentions are with it. Yeah, it's really cool to reflect on how we went out on the land and harvested some devil's club together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that medicine sat for, like I think, a year and a half, like a long time, and it's finally getting worked with now. Yeah, and when you brought out that stock, just like, oh yeah, we did that together.
Speaker 1:And then you brought out the little devil's club bead with the coyote tooth. That was like whoa, like that's something that I never saw or pictured at all. Yeah, so to see your twist on medicine with that medicine is really cool too. Um, yeah, I love working with devil's club and just connecting with that. That plant medicine is super powerful yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:And the other thing is, you know, um, the one of the other beautiful things about that experience was, you know, of course, being on the land, but you know, we'd stop little places and you'd be like, hey, you'd move some, you know some of the moss off to the side and you'd be like, here, here's a little bit of a root. You know, taste this, right, but it's like, um, it was cool to see how much knowledge that you have and then also to imagine, you know, the knowledge that the ancestors had of like. You know, you look at it and if you don't have an understanding or knowledge of that, it just looks like just a forest, right, and people look at it and they don't know how much value is in there in terms of sustaining us, healing us, all of that stuff. And you were just like here, taste this.
Speaker 1:Right, I totally forgot about that. Yeah, the licorice root.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool to think about that and so, yeah, it was really cool to experience that and have you take me out there, and so I thank you for you know doing that. It was a gift to me to be able to visit your territory and to uh gain some more knowledge. You know, and I think some of that stuff going forward will go towards, you know, uh, my own making of some of that. Uh, you know, devil know devil's club self or you know, giving to people for their uh tattoos, and so you know, I know we I'm going to come back out and we'll finish that process off, probably with a new batch at some point. Um, just so that I can get that whole experience, so that I can start to offer that to people.
Speaker 1:Totally yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um, you know that connects. Then, next to um, you know you do a lot of work with your community in terms of archeology and working on the land. So what has that experience been like, uh, for you? Uh, going out and doing that work.
Speaker 1:That's been um, just an, an interesting journey, an unexpected one, actually. Um, quitting working for fisheries and oceans at something that I was doing for like 15 or 20 years and then just being like I'm done, this isn't fulfilling me anymore. Um, and then helping within my nation, which was also unexpected to start doing um and just getting tossed into some archaeology is a really cool experience, and seeing um, finding human remains is as a wild. Uh. Finding tools is really a really cool experience. Or even trade beads here and there. Um, and just the. The vast amount of midden in some of these spots is insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and even in qualicum, like all the rocks that have been, they're buried now, but they were all brought up by hand and it's like it's a lot of rocks, yeah yeah, and it's interesting, uh, bring some uh interesting uh conversation forward around, like the, even the determination of, like these are remains, yeah right, when, when I think about that, it's like well, no, this is actually a grave site. Yes, they are remains, they're ancestral remains, but it's a bloody graveyard. And the reason that a lot of times you're there to observe and to work through is because people are developing that land and building their houses on graveyards. Land and building their houses on graveyards, yeah right, and so it really like brings to the forefront how uh insignificant our ancestors are to the people developing those sites. Yeah, you know, when I think about that, it's like, oh well, let's just go build our house on the local community cemetery, because, you know, it's an interesting turn of phrase which says, oh, these are just remains, as opposed this is a cemetery.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, those two things are. There's a different. What would you say? Like, just the changing of that language does something interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really wild to uncover human remains and then being like, oh, we're just going to put some concrete over here now and we'll remove the human remains as well and we'll repatriate them, but we're still going to put our house here. The amount of money that people spend on archaeology and having their house developed is insane, and that's something that I've thought of too. It's like we're not going to a cemetery and just like, no, we're just going to put our house here now, like this doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when it's happening to our ancestors, it's just yeah, mind-boggling yeah, it really is just yeah, boggles my mind in terms of like well, I mean, the reality is, is that it's no different than what they have done to us in reality, like in our everyday lives? Yeah Right, like the erasure of our existence and the insistence that we are of no value. You know, it just goes to show you that that extends out further and further.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like this was your land, but it's ours now we're taking it and we're putting our million dollar house up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's crazy, yeah, but yeah it's pretty cool. Sometimes you know I'll be get a little ding, a notification that a message is coming through. I'll look at it and it's like you know an arrowhead or a piece of archaeology that you found, like. So it's pretty cool to see you out there. What is it like to you know when you're in your territory doing that work? What is it like to find some tools that your ancestors would have used?
Speaker 1:That's a really cool experience. The one day we were coming home from some sort of trip and I'm like what's that? And Luca picks it up and it's an arrowhead or a projectile point, and I still have it and it was in my driveway, wow, where I've been walking every day, and just really cool to find something so unique like that and just whole yeah. Yeah. The amount of tools that's around the territory that we get to find is a as a really like whoa, like look how, um, I don't maybe intelligent or sophisticated these are people were, with what they needed to do, yeah, like look what they just created.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, they adapted to what they needed to do, yeah, and they created this yeah, yeah, when I think about that, uh reminds me of my own experience with uh pictographs.
Speaker 2:You know, going out to the land and visiting those pictograph sites and you realize, you know, uh, that your ancestors were there, right, like there's evidence of their journeys, you know, with pictographs, into their spiritual journeys and that stuff. But yeah, like to think that that arrow point was something that helped to sustain your people, to ensure that you came here. And, like I, always it's like you look at some of those artifacts or those materials and you realize, like, how brilliant people were, especially with the material that they were using. Yeah, right, like they were so effective at what they needed to do. And so, for me, when I think about technology, technology is successful if it's its use. It, you know, if it's able to effectively do its use, you know, uh, its use is realized. So, in terms of, like, uh projectile points, it's killing an animal, yeah, so that you can eat it and survive that's right, and that's what I think of every time I go to some of these arc sites.
Speaker 1:It's like, look what this? I try to envision what this land would have looked like pre-contact, and just like how big the trees would have been and how green everything would have been and undeveloped, um, as well. As like, oh, what's your goal today? I just want to eat and live Like that's it, yeah, like, and I want to take care of my family, so I'm going to go out and hunt and we're just going to eat, yeah, so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's also helps you to again reemphasize and realize you know what how basic our everyday needs actually are. Yeah, you know, like we can make things so bloody complicated in life and you know, the reality is is that you know we actually are very blessed to live in the time that we live. Yeah, you know like it's kind of crazy to think of that time period and like what it actually took to get you know 365 days Right, you know, yeah, like it was actually a feat to be able to make it back to the next year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also think of how much archaeology is incorporated in my exploring around my home as well, because I go to Denman or Hornby as well as Jedediah Island and just seeing these gathering spots. We didn't have reserves back then. Yeah, we had a seasonal spot where something was flourishing at that moment in time for x amount of days. So you go there and harvest your herring or or your geoduck or clams, and then you move to the next spot and you just move around. So it's really cool to have that. That lens to be like we didn't just stay in one spot for this long. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty cool. You know, as I think about the other thing that you do in your community is that you know you skip a canoe for your community. So what is that like? What was the journey for you to learn how to do that work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been skipping the canoe since 2009 or 2010. The nation bought this canoe and they're like, oh well, we need someone to skip it. And it's going to be you. And I'm like, nah, I'm not doing that, I don't want to do that and I don't know how. Um, and then I, I did it with like a little bit of mentorship, um, and I fell in love with it.
Speaker 1:Um, just my ability to read the waters, um, is um really beneficial for guiding the people who are actually like doing the majority. They're doing the work, they're paddling hard and I just help uplift them and um get them to their journey safely. Um, it's been a very beautiful experience where it's gotten me to skip canoes all over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really cool. To be able to read a individual from the back of their head and know what they're going through is like super unique, like not everyone can be like this person's going through it right now, just by looking at the back of their head. Yeah, um, so like, like, okay, just give them a break, like let them gather their thoughts, emotions, feelings for a few minutes and then they can keep going, because the water is where we can release a lot of that pain and trauma that we need to release. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's cool that you say that because, uh, you know I can relate that back to um, you know, doing the work, doing the tattoo work, sometimes it's like you know you're talking about reading, uh, you know someone's uh state, mental state, physical state, uh, just by looking at the back of their head. And a lot of times you know, when you're tattooing you're kind of zoned into this like little. You know six inch, you know square, that you're working in and sometimes if you're doing a longer line, you could extend that. You know, feel the view, but you also uh, get a sense of being able to read where somebody is, you know, physically, emotionally, spiritually. Yeah, well, you're doing that work.
Speaker 2:You know just zoning in, and even though you're concentrating, sometimes you can be like, oh, you know, we need to take a break. Yeah, you know, like we just, we just need, you know, a couple, three, five minutes, and then somebody will be able to continue, because sometimes that experience of getting the work done, you get inside your head and you're like, is this ever going to bloody well end? And so sometimes, when you give somebody three or five minutes to just relax and come back to themselves, they're able to continue because they realize that it is going to end. They realize that it is going to end. So it's pretty cool to get that uh connection in that relationship of like uh being able to read people, because you've been in that situation for long, so long, and I would say it's like also an intuition that you have. And it was also cool to um observe you picturing that right, because I could see, as you were talking about it, you you were picturing reading those ways. Yeah, like that experience. So it's pretty cool, that's really cool to hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and very similar, like reflecting on our session yesterday. It's just like you read me. Yeah, I got my face covered up, but you can still read me, yeah big time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty cool and that also comes back to you know, coming back to your bodysuit, how cool it is to see those patterns, those wave patterns, right Like it is such a they fit you so well in terms of your work as a skipper for a canoe for your community. Yeah, like, so cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you first approached me with the drawing of the bodysuit was incredible, like I had in my own perspective, like what things meant. And then I told you and you're like, actually this, but that's really fitting too, yeah, so that's like whoa, like I didn't. That's crazy that you just told me that story and that's what you do so yeah, because I didn't know that you were a skipper of a canoe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I designed that those, specifically those wave patterns, yeah, and you were like, oh well, this is, what you know, one of my responsibilities as a leader in my community I was like, oh, that's why those needed to be right. So, yeah, it's pretty cool to see how those things manifest into the wearing of those marks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really beautiful. And on this past journey we were sitting there in Alki Beach in Seattle and I was just holding my paddle in the canoe waiting to ask permission to come ashore and there was this woman beside me and she was like staring and she's like is that dion's work? It's like, yeah. She's like that's incredible. I'm like, yeah, this was done like two days ago and I had to jump in this canoe and like get here, yeah, which was crazy. It feels like after every session, I'm always jumping into the next thing. Yeah, um, and I don't. I don't always fully let my body rest properly because there's so much drive behind things I want to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it shows that you're a leader, though you know, and I don't know that you know that or recognize it or acknowledge it in yourself. But you know, I just wanted to highlight, you know, the reality that you know all of the things that we've talked about really speak to how much of a leader you are for your community, right. And I would also say it's another reason why I think it was important for me to talk to you, because I think that it shows that us, as Indigenous folks, can be leaders in our communities and contribute in powerful ways that are not as a skin marker or not as somebody who is held up really high in a variety of ways, like doing the archaeology, like that is important leadership work, you know. And so just acknowledging all of those arc teams that go out, you know, those field crews that do the work, you know that's important and powerful work for our communities to preserve and to care for those ancestors that are coming out of the ground and being, you know, put in their final place, you know that's leadership right. And then you think of, like, the work that you do with the medicines.
Speaker 2:You know, I know you probably don't talk about that very much or put it out there, but it's going to be out there now, but you have, you know, a lot of knowledge there, right, and so I'm just lifting you up and all of those things that you do and, uh, honoring you in that work that you do. And then, you know, as a skipper for your community's canoe, you know, that is another powerful way that you are standing up for your community. And I would also say, you know, in past episodes I've talked about one of the reasons I want to do this podcast is so that the youth have somebody to look up to. Yeah, and so I'm just bringing it forward to your consciousness that you, you know, being a skipper for your community's canoe is one of those places where a young version of yourself could be looking up. And, oh, I want to be like Stephen Right.
Speaker 2:And so I'm just holding you up in all of those ways that you are a leader for your community, your community, and I would also say, you know, don't forget, you know, some of the things that you've shared with me, because you know we all go through hard times, right, and so it's important to always visit that water, right, when we're going through the waves and the lightning's coming.
Speaker 2:You know, I'll go back to that water, that water, right, it's just such a powerful lesson and I can tell that, uh, that is part of the way that you heal, just by the way that you talk about it, and so I'm just, you know, bringing that forward to your consciousness and I always say, uh, I was I can't remember who I was talking to, but the other day I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have to go back to this podcast and listen to it when you know this and this is happening. So, yeah, you know, when you uh need that, you can always come back and listen and be reminded to go visit the water, absolutely and I think that was one of my favorite parts about coming here was the first thing we did is went to the water.
Speaker 1:And the first thing I did when I left home is I went to the water and I just spoke to creator and ancestors and asked them to give me the guidance and everything I need for my life journey, for healing work. So I'm really grateful that you brought me to the water over here to experience that, um, because it's not every day I'm over on the East coast of Canada.
Speaker 2:Coast to coast.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah Cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um yeah, just as we're winding up, is there any other final thoughts that you want to bring forward? Uh, you know, about any of the things that we've talked about?
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, the, um, the, the drive to complete this has been huge, um, because I know that my pattern would be self sabotage and even reflecting on coming out here before like fuck am I gonna do this? Like, am I gonna complete this body suit, because normally I'll get to like that 85, 90, and then something will happen and I'll be like, good enough, yeah, like we're done, yeah, um, but I was reflecting out the water recently, before this trip, and I'm like, nah, I'm doing this, I need to. To see something through on me is totally different. To see something through is just a beautiful experience that I'm coming to terms with, accepting, yeah, um, and just wanting to fulfill my, my healing journey, my tattoo journey, yeah, um, my journey with you, my time, um, that I've been really fortunate to get to spend with you. I'm really grateful that we crossed paths and you just help uplift indigenous badass people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and just the perspective, your, your perspectives on things is really nice to hear, because sometimes it's like, oh, I didn't think about that. Yeah, like, what about this? Oh well, what about that? And that can be on anything, yeah, so it's really nice to hear your guidance and just your mentorship, um, through this whole project has been incredible and I love you for everything you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love you too, and you know it's one of the you know I was saying I can't remember who I was saying it to the other day is like you know, when you shared with me is like what's next after I finish this, you know? And I always feel like, oh, I was talking with, uh, april rain. Uh, I did a podcast interview the other day and we were talking about, like, reflecting how spending so much time with your clients, it's like what, like we're done.
Speaker 2:You know, like we've spent 80 to 100 hours working on your body suit, and then it's like we're done, what, okay, what's next, you know like you just become such good friends, uh, you know, with the well, as a practitioner, you become such good friends with people that you're working with, you know, yeah, um, but I know that you know, uh, when we're finished, that that that's not the end. I know we'll figure out ways to collaborate in a variety of different ways. When I think about that, part of that is some of the Devil's Club, some of that type of stuff, finding opportunities to collaborate in a variety of different ways. I think that that will come and I think you know part of that is also the reality of you know coming and you doing some of the video and the photography for.
Speaker 2:Echoes, you know, and then coming to Aotearoa to do some of the work there. So, you know, those are just good examples of ways that, know, when we cross paths, you know, opportunities arise. Yeah, yeah, thank you for, and, um, I guess I also uh have to thank you for those words you know and acknowledge.
Speaker 2:you know, because sometimes it's hard to take those good words in. Yeah, uh, we have a tendency to, you know, not acknowledge them and not take them into our hearts, just because of the training that we've had and all that stuff. Maybe some of that's like you don't feel like you deserve it. Yeah, you know that type of stuff. So I just want to thank you for sharing those words and for lifting me up and I let you know that I take them in and I accept them and you know they'll live there and provide good stuff when I need it. Cool, so thank you for that. Thank you, and I appreciate you being willing to come in and be interviewed.
Speaker 2:You know, we did a bit of an interview. You know, part of this will be used for a documentary film about the whole project. Yeah, but this will also be part of the podcast now, cool, I thought it was going to be. You know, because it's it probably interesting for people to hear people who've gotten the work. You know, uh, and I always say that it's important to uplift people who are wearing the work, because for me, yes, I sit there for the 80 or the hundred hours of us doing the bodysuit, but you're actually doing the work of living in the world with it. You know, when it comes to indigenous people, some of that is living in a racist world. Yeah, you know, and as a heavily tattooed person, regardless of the racist part, there is discrimination being marked period. Uh, whether it's, you know, an ancestral tattoo design or whatever just being tattooed, sometimes there's discrimination right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah, uh, it's. I think it's important to also have conversations with people who wear the work and, uh, also to uplift people who are doing dope like you said, badass shit, right. So I hope you consider yourself part of that group and I thank you for your time and I thank you for, you know, continuing to make that commitment to finishing this project. For continuing to make that commitment to finishing this project. I imagine in the future we'll have a follow-up when you're fully completed, but, yeah, I just thought it was important to have this conversation now because we're going into what's the roundup for the whole project. But, yeah, thank you for spending this time with me and letting people hear your story and your journey.
Speaker 1:Thank you for allowing me time and space to share it.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, Thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head on over next week's episode where I talk to Joseph Huia. In this episode, we talk about apprenticing and coming up in a contemporary moco studio. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.