Transformative Marks Podcast

Cultural Symbols and Self-Discovery in Indigenous Tattoo Art with Kris and Wes Wilson

• Dion Kaszas and Kristine and Wes Wilson • Episode 42

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#042 What if the art of tattooing could reconnect us to our roots and transform our self-identity? Join me, Dion Kazas, as I welcome Kristine and Wes Wilson to discuss their involvement in the Nlaka'pamux Blackwork project and their personal journeys with Indigenous tattoos. Kristine talks about her significant role as a model and supporter in the Earthline Indigenous tattoo schools and how her meaningful tattoos have fueled a cultural resurgence in skin stitching. Wes shares his transformative experience of overcoming hesitation due to his vitiligo and embracing tattoos, paving a path toward self-acceptance and cultural expression.

We also celebrate the creative genius of Janessa Wilson, whose traditional motifs have turned a simple jersey for the Salmon Arm Silverbacks into a canvas of cultural symbolism. Her designs are a testament to visual sovereignty, embodying a profound connection to the earth and heritage. This episode shines a spotlight on the collaborative spirit of various organizations, like the Canada Council for the Arts, Arts Nova Scotia and the IOTA Institute, that are nurturing community identity by  sponsoring the development of a visual dictionary of Nlaka'pamux art, ensuring these cultural symbols remain vibrant and recognized.

Photography and storytelling emerge as crucial tools in preserving and healing communities. We explore how a couple's dedication to capturing precious moments, especially after the fire in Lytton, illustrates photography's power in safeguarding cultural legacies. The episode concludes with the sacredness of documenting tattoo experiences, where unexpected connections and the honor of sharing intimate spaces underscore the project's profound impact. As we continue to honor these personal and cultural journeys, we find inspiration in the stories that bind us and the legacies we leave behind.

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
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I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts & We acknowledge the support of Arts Nova Scotia

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Speaker 1:

It's definitely a sacred place. When you go in there, it's like a ceremony.

Speaker 3:

The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I have helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.

Speaker 2:

I'm Christine Wilson. I come from Lower Nicolandia, abandoned mayor of BC, and I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. My name is Wes Wilson, I am Insa Kutton. I'm from Layton, bc. Wilson.

Speaker 3:

I am in Tlacotan, I'm from Lytton BC, I am a husband, a father photographer. So we're here for the in Tlacotan McBlackwork roundup kind of the culmination and the finishing of a project that has, uh includes 18 different individuals who've received into cut mcblack work and we're doing interviews, doing portraits. Final portraits will end up being in an exhibition with everybody being highlighted in the work that they did as a collaborator in this journey. It's pretty cool that both of you were actually photographers as part of this project, or I would say, documenters, because you not only did photography but you also did some of the video work, which that will end up in a documentary at some point. Not sure what that totally looks like yet. So what was? I guess, chris, we'll start with you to share your journey in terms of what it was coming into receiving tattoos in the first place, because you're the one who received tattoos first. So, and I would say, not even just um black work or our ancestral work, but tattoos in general, what was that journey for you to get marked, to be tattooed?

Speaker 2:

I think my tattoos are all very special to me and they've been thought about or I've received them from you for some reason, or work that you wanted to do, and I was happy to collaborate with you on that. I'm always open to new tattoos, but my first tattoo is a rose for my grandma yeah, which wasn't done by you but designed by you, so that's really cool. Um, and being the first to receive the the back piece that I have was really cool. It was both happy to get it finished but sad at the same time because I still wanted to do more.

Speaker 3:

And.

Speaker 2:

I know there's always time to do more, so big time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, it's always interesting. I always hold you up because you're you and Jamie are kind of the first ones that whenever I have something going on, I'm like, hey, I need somebody to come get tattooed. You know, photographers coming, a newspaper person, whatever. So I really hold you up and I thank you for you know uh being willing to be that person that is there to support my work. So you know I love you and I thank you for uh always stepping in and doing that. You know you and I thank you for uh always stepping in and doing that. You know it's important work and your willingness to do it, you know uh really sits in my heart big, you know.

Speaker 2:

So I appreciate that yeah, yeah, and I'll always be there. I mean, and it's really neat to when people do see the tattoos, like especially with the hand poke and the skin stitch.

Speaker 3:

Um, that builds a bit of a conversation with people and so I think that's really cool too, that people get to see that yeah, yeah, and I always uh tell the story of you uh being the guinea pig in the tattoo schools. So, uh, my sister christine has been uh part of uh many uh ancestral skin markers and cultural tattoo practitioners journey into the beginning of their work, especially in terms of the skin stitching. So the practice that I usually did for, I think, the first two or three tattoo schools we would I'd be demonstrating on my sister and then I'd be like, okay, are you guys ready? And they'd all look at me, what are you?

Speaker 2:

ready?

Speaker 3:

no, do I have to yeah, okay, yeah, and so, yeah, they'd all end up jumping in there and taking those first few stitches, you know. So I appreciate that as well, uh, lifting you up for that, because it's actually really big work in terms of the contribution that you've given to other communities, right. So you think of all of those practitioners that you sat with. You know that's big work, and so, uh, again, thank you for doing that for me, but also for those other communities, because now those people are training people yeah and that that contribution you've given is just compounding out into the future, right?

Speaker 2:

so yeah, just big props and lift you up for that thank you, and it's really neat to see, like as their progression, as they start to have started doing more tattoos, and just how it just progressed so well for them and just being able to spread. That is really cool.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, awesome. So, wes, let's go to your tattoo journey. What was it like for you? Because I know you had a bit of a different idea about tattoos in the beginning, and then eventually you got both of your legs fully tattooed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so let's start with that journey. Yeah, it's been a huge journey. Uh, for me, always in the past, the tattoo was just, you know, like ink on skin and, um, I've always been afraid of needles and, um, I didn't really want a tattoo, yeah, any tattoos whatsoever. Um, mainly because of my vitiligo, I didn't want want to tattoo any tattoos whatsoever. Mainly because of my vitiligo. I didn't want to disturb it or activate it, that kind of thing. But once I heard of Dion starting a practice bringing back traditional tattooing, it sparked something in my my brain and some interests and I'm like this is gonna be something different. Yeah, and there's gonna. There's a lot more meaning in the tattoos that I got well, for myself anyways, compared to just, I don't know, like a contemporary tattoo. Yeah, yeah, so what was that?

Speaker 3:

Because we started with the Stein owl.

Speaker 1:

The Stein. Yeah the Stein logo. Yeah, that came up because I was raised by my grandmother and she was a big part of opening our school back in Lytton. Yeah, and the Stein logo is our logo for the school. So that's how I wanted to memorialize her is get that tattooed on to me. And how we went about putting a tattoo on my skin was this hand poke yeah so that really it kind of it was different than like a tattoo gun.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It had more meaning, it was more traditional.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it made me want to be more active in this project. Awesome, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's cool. Uh, I just reflecting on, uh, that first interview we did back at the old vertigo tattoo shop. Hey, that was what uh 2013, maybe, or 14, yeah, maybe, yeah, 2013, I believe, because it was like my first year of my master's degree. I was taking the course, uh, digital filmmaking for activists and scholars, and we did a little documentary and both of you were willing to come and do that interview, so it'll be cool to see kind of like this as the update of that interview.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know that's cool.

Speaker 3:

Um, chrisris, when you think of the, because west brought up the, the different techniques um, can you reflect on? That a little bit in terms of your own experience um yeah yeah receiving machine receiving hand poke and then also coming back to receiving machine for intracarpal black work right.

Speaker 2:

Um, I always find that with you know, traditional hand poke and skin stitch, I just feel my body feels so much calmer than than the gun, just because I think maybe it's not as repetitive or I'm not quite sure what it is but, my body just feels a lot calmer.

Speaker 2:

I know, know, with my one tattoo on my neck, I probably almost fell asleep when you hand poked it, um, and you know, to come back to doing the needle and the gun with my back piece, I mean some points, I thought I was just gonna cry and keel over, you know, but just that was my, how my body was feeling Right, feeling right and and how much more trauma is caused, yeah, by a gun compared to, um, a needle and thread, or you know, five, ten needles hand poked yeah so it's quite interesting to see how your body reacts to it.

Speaker 2:

But both, both obviously have the same meaning to me. You know they're both, they, they're all important to me in some way. But yeah, it's a lot more traumatizing with the gun. Yeah, give me more needles than one single needle please.

Speaker 3:

And what about you, Wes? What's that difference that you experienced between the hand poke and then the machine work?

Speaker 1:

I really liked the hand poke. Yeah, the hand poke, and then the machine work. I really like the hand poke. Yeah, um, it felt more um, I don't know like I don't know if it's the right word, but like intimate yeah, kind of yeah, um, with the, with the gun, it was more intrusive and painful yeah um how to tolerate a lot more pain with the gun.

Speaker 3:

We did a lot more.

Speaker 2:

Just a little bit yeah.

Speaker 1:

One thing I would like to try, though, is the skin stitch. Oh, you're down.

Speaker 3:

You're ready to do it. That's awesome.

Speaker 1:

I don't know when, not today, let's go. Yeah, don't know when that's so cool Not today, not today, let's go, let's go yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we can, totally that can get sorted out. Yeah, that's cool to also see a bit of that growth with your journey, because I know before you were like hells to the no.

Speaker 2:

I'm not getting that. I'd say I'm going to cdr and he'd say okay, have fun I'm not doing that, so that's cool to see that.

Speaker 3:

Uh, different journey and you know you brought it up earlier in terms of um, the, the coloration and your vitiligo, is it? Yeah, vitiligo, yeah, vitiligo yeah um, and I wonder if you're open to exploring some of that in terms of the marks that we did on your feet and kind of the way that that's transformed your relationship with your skin and with your body. Uh, receiving the marks, yeah, um, I.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like the term that you're using, transformative marks, because I feel like a I don't know, kind of like a shapeshifter almost. I grew up my whole life with Vitiligo. It didn't bother me as a child, yeah, and but I, when I came into um teenage years, um, I started to spread. People started to notice and a lot of um unknown for me, yeah, like I don't know what, what it is nobody really explained it to me how to do a lot of self exploration yeah so vitiligo for me was a lot of shame, embarrassment, depression.

Speaker 1:

Try to hide it, yeah, like I remember one family portrait where I try to cover it up. Yeah, it didn't work, though you could see it in the family portrait.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I was worried about that with getting a tattoo, because usually what happens is when I damage my skin, my skin can't get its pigmentation back yeah that's one of the reasons why I get it.

Speaker 1:

Um, so I was worried about that, and, um, the tattoos didn't really affect my skin in that way. What it did do, though, it it transformed me into a new person. Um, that I remember. Um, when dion first started tattooing, I asked for a tattoo to cover out my vitilego. Right, yeah, and I'm glad we didn't do that. Yeah, it was always something that I was ashamed of, yeah, and I wanted it covered up. Mm wanted it covered up, and along my journey, we did my two full leg sleeves and my feet, and it totally transformed me, going almost 40 years not walking around barefoot, ashamed of my vitiligo. And this past year, since we're done, um, it's amazing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I can walk around in sandals. Like imagine um, um not wearing sandals your whole life and then all of a sudden that mid-40s, it's like that's all he wants to wear now.

Speaker 3:

That's all I want to wear now, yeah yeah yeah, I wanted to uh explore that with you and uh, again, uh, in a similar way, really hold you up, uh, for the work that you've done in terms of, uh, you know, becoming an advocate and an educator and somebody who is now standing up and talking about that shame, talking about that journey of hiding and not really knowing, you know, in terms of, because, of course, other people are going through that similar situation and so it's really powerful, uh, what you're doing in that way of like, just you know, owning it and loving it and, you know, being that person that is proud of who you are in your body, and so I, again, I hold you up for that and you know, um, it made me real happy when I heard you tell that first story to me when we were in one of the sessions that you know, you went into the co-op and somebody was like hey, and they give you a fist bump and you know another person who probably has those same experiences that you had, Right.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, I lift you up for becoming an advocate and also for standing proudly in who you are. It's pretty powerful. So. I just want you to know that I honor that and I hold that up and it's pretty awesome. Thank you, yeah, big time, chris, when you think of the oh. One thing I wanted to explore a little bit was some of the tattoos and the marks that we gave. Both of you are living a similar rendition, or living on a jersey for a hockey team.

Speaker 2:

Let's explore that a little bit.

Speaker 3:

Either of you can pick it up in terms of explaining and then maybe toss the ball back to the other one it up in terms of explaining and then maybe toss the ball back to the other one.

Speaker 2:

Oh well, um, our daughter, janessa wilson. She designed a jersey for the salmon arm silverbacks, um, and it's an orange jersey. It has, um the salmon which is on wes's forearm and um landline and trees on the back which are I have on my arm, um, and it felt like it was kind of it was just amazing that she chose those things to put on there and that it represents our culture in a way that, you know, other people may not see it if it wasn't out there on her jersey and we're super, super, super proud of her in a way, it feels like, um, we should have explained that more.

Speaker 1:

I'm not sure. Yeah, um, like the symbolism and all that kind of stuff, we never got that opportunity. But here we are today being able to talk about it and bring it forward. But yeah, I'm so proud of the work that our daughter does and how she took what she sees in everyday life as being Native culture and putting it out there into the world in her eyes In her eyes. So I was surprised when I saw that she put that on her design.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's pretty cool, and one of the reasons I wanted to bring it up too is because that is one of the reasons why I started this work is so that it becomes normal again. You know, because when you think of our ancestors, you know, even 100, 150 years ago, like those design symbols, motifs, would have been everywhere they would have been on clothing, they would have been on baskets. They would have been on clothing, they would have been on baskets.

Speaker 2:

They would have been all over the place. They would have been beaded.

Speaker 3:

And the one thing that I think is really cool is how that earth line and those trees which also can be interpreted as mountains if you look at the silhouette instead of the individual trees is that that's actually a traditional placement for those designs? Wow, is that that's actually a traditional placement for those designs? Wow, because when you think about it, when you're wearing that garment and when it goes all the way around, you're actually encircled symbolically in the earth because you're wearing the earth and it circles all the way around you, so you're actually within the earth, and so that really talks about our relationship to the earth and all that is right. But it also honors the fact that the individual is still there, and the individual is still important, because I think a lot of people get stuck on, you know, just thinking about everything outside themselves, to the point where they disappear, and so that teaching, I think, is really about the balance between caring for self and all, including the earth.

Speaker 2:

And so it's pretty cool to see that that where that placement is.

Speaker 3:

it's actually like an ancestral placement for that on that type of garment Wow.

Speaker 2:

That's amazing, like I never knew that. So to know that it just makes it even more special. Yeah, right, like.

Speaker 1:

I never even thought about it like how um you talked about how that was a normal thing on our clothing yeah back then. Yeah, it's like yeah, that's pretty cool. It means a lot more now. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's like it was being channeled through her yeah, and I would say that for me, that is also part of the excitement of why I created the visual dictionary for it. So those folks that don't know over the past, since 2012, I've been collecting bits and the Intagatmuk Visual Dictionary, which is a visual catalog of our ancestral visual language. And for me, why I did that is so that our artists can start to use that in their shirts, in their logo designs, in whatever they want to use it for, on their paintings and murals, so that our you know, say, a fly pattern shows up.

Speaker 3:

Maybe it's a realistic, you know rendition, but then a little fly pattern shows up right yeah, and so that, again, it's a form of visual sovereignty and for me, uh, that's what that jersey is. Is that that Janessa took our visual language and asserted our sovereignty as Intlikaatmuk and interior Salish, because those design symbols and motifs are also, you know, found in the Shwetm territory, which is where Salmon Arm Silverbacks is uh, salmon arm silverbacks is.

Speaker 3:

So really, it's an assertion of our sovereignty as an indigenous people, as interior salis people, part of that territory so I just wanted to highlight that because I think that it's really important and, uh, both of you, you know, should be so proud that she, that you've nurtured her, uh, her talents and those gifts in such a way that she was willing to step out and offer that to the world. So, you know, I lift again both of you up for doing that.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3:

But when I think about the oh okay, circling back now, just because you mentioned the jersey or you mentioned the tattoos, and I was like, oh, those are on the jersey.

Speaker 3:

You gotta gotta hit that um, what was, when you think about the either of you receiving the intercom of black work piece I know west you talked about it a little bit in terms of the transformation, in terms of your relationship to your body and that shame associated um, what has been your experience with receiving it, because it is such a big piece? You know, chris, I think we took two sittings, two sittings yeah, that's it see.

Speaker 2:

This is why I was a little sad it was done already after two sessions.

Speaker 1:

Could we?

Speaker 3:

have more and so it was two sessions of at least five to six hours. I think each. So you know, probably 10 to 12 hours to get that finished. And then Wes, yours was what? Six or seven, I think I can't remember. I just did a.

Speaker 2:

It was a lot. I think it was seven yeah.

Speaker 3:

A roll call on my Instagram of how many we took, but I can't remember 100%, but, yeah, six or seven, and you know those were also long sessions, and so I just want to give an opportunity for any reflection that either of you have in terms of receiving the work or any experiences.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just opening that up for you to share oh my gosh, my tattoo took, yeah, so long to get through and, um, while I was getting my tattoo, life goes on right and and it was kind of like a therapy. Going into these tattoo sessions and reflection on my past, I brought up memories, emotions and just what I went through in my head. And just what I went through in my head, like saying prayers and reflecting on my teachings from when I was younger, appreciating the culture that I was taught, and that these marks are actually on baskets that our ancestors made yeah, it's a very deep, loving feeling. Yeah, yeah, it gives me a sense of pride when I walk around now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, Looks badass too. Yeah, that looks badass. And what about you, Chris?

Speaker 2:

It kind of felt like I was like because, I mean, I grew up in suburban white community and what about us? Right? Yeah, and I think that was the biggest part for me is that it kind of just brought me back to my roots.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, when.

Speaker 3:

I think about that too. We did take a trip up the Stein Valley and we have taken, you know, family trips. I've taken the family to different pictograph sites and things and some of those tattoos that both of you have on your skin, like you've seen them, or you've seen the places that those come from. So do you have any reflection on that experience of like either I'm not sure when the timeline was, whether you got them before or after but yeah, being in those places where some of those designs and symbols come from in terms of the pictographs Any reflection on that?

Speaker 2:

Well, I know, when we went into the Stein with the family, I think I had mine already and I was able to point out to the kids that's on my arm and I think I think it was Tyler, that was like he saw it first and he's like mom, mom, that's yours, right. So that was really cool to see that connection too. Right like that.

Speaker 2:

That's where it's come from, and now I have it and Wes has it and you know it just connects you back to think like they sat there and they put these pictographs on here, you know, and art has been such a big part of Native communities, right, and so it's neat to see that connection. I think that was for me. That's kind of the biggest wow moment for me. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have two hand-poked tattoos in our pictographs and they bring me back home into the Sign Valley. The smell, the warmth, the tranquility, the pride of knowing that these are marks that were made centuries ago or decades ago. Yeah and yeah, it just brings me back home.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, because you spent a bit of time in there as a youth and a young person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah there as a youth and a young person. Yeah, yeah, I remember, you know, like walking through that valley and just seeing random pictographs along the trail and um just mesmerized about yeah you know how old they are and uh being taught uh by my elders um to respect them and honor them and, in a way, we are honoring them, yeah yeah, it's cool to also think and reflect back, because, uh what?

Speaker 2:

tyler was only three when we went in maybe going on, just about going on to four maybe I think he was two and a half the first time, oh wow. And then we went the following year, and so he was probably three and a half at that time oh wow. And then we went the following year, and so he was probably three and a half at that time wow and he walked and that whole distance himself.

Speaker 3:

That's what I always tell people. I have that picture of him walking with everybody and he's just and his little backpack with his snacks and his socks.

Speaker 2:

You know, um, and I'm, you know, continuously through that trip I felt a little bit bad sometimes. No, son, I can't pick you up, I already have my pack on me yeah so he'd sit down on the ground and I well, you can sit there or you can come with us. That's your choice dude yeah so he'd sit for a couple minutes and then he'd come and then or else he'd be like mom, I need a snack.

Speaker 2:

We just had a snack you're good, I promise yeah you know, but super proud of the kids for doing that trip as well and it's really neat because they do talk about that trip.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right, and they do want to go back and they do want to see more of it, right, and now that they're older, it'll be a really fun thing to do with them, right? I mean, even if it is just to go, you know, three days in and back out, or you know, whatever it is, but I'd really like to take them back in there. Yeah, and talking about looking at pictographs and stuff, I just remember when we went we called it car camping, that one trip and you showed us different pictographs and, like I say, the kids still talk about that.

Speaker 2:

so it's really important for them to see those things and then they can show you know whoever they feel they need to or want to.

Speaker 3:

So yeah, and I think when I think about that, it's also like a process of showing that we're still engaged in these cultural things. We're going to visit, we're going to give offerings, we're actually living that part of our ancestors. Visiting those places is important in terms of the continuation of our community on our landscape right in that cultural way.

Speaker 3:

but yeah, I just wanted to reflect on that because I always share that picture sometimes of him and I'm like you know he was three and he walked that whole like 25K all by himself. I'm like took us a little bit longer, but he made it all the way and everybody's just their jaw drops.

Speaker 2:

Well, and my part was him going over the devil's staircase. I was so worried and I was so scared and you know, even the other two kids were like mom, he's fine yeah I'm like okay, okay he's good. He's good and of course he did it. But yeah, you know, and it's that's something he's always done, that's he likes to be outdoors, and he was always hiking with you as well and with grandma. So that's, I think that helped too.

Speaker 3:

Yeah it's cool. I guess also an opportunity, because we just had kind of the launching or the dropping of the Intikamuk visual dictionary. Do either of you have any refract reflections about, um, you know, uh, receiving that and looking through it?

Speaker 2:

wow, yeah I you know, every time I look at it, you know, like I say, it came from a paperback coiled book that you know these were just pages with pictures yeah right and to see it in an actual book form.

Speaker 2:

It's just, it's amazing to see it and I'm so proud of you for all that research and all that work you did to share with, with the communities and and the people. Like I just think that's so amazing. I mean, it wasn't an easy job and you just dove right in and and you saw a vision and you made it come true and that's really amazing and the fact that you made the trek to all these amazing places to see things that a lot of us never have and record that and put it somewhere where we can all see that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, um, in the past when we were in study, we've never had that resource. All we've had was like a little paper by James Tate right. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty amazing that that work is there for the future generations.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. And again I lift up each of you for the contributions that you've given to that. You know, part of that is going on to the Stein right, part of that is, uh, you know, traveling me with with me to different places. Part of that is also the encouragement and the uh receiving the work. You know, because all of that feeds into that desire, because you know again, just like you, in the beginning I had a few pages and I'm like desire because you know again, just like you, in the beginning I had a few pages and I'm like, ah, you know, so I created the thing that I wish that I had. And I also have to hold up the Canada Council for the Arts and Arts, nova Scotia, as well as the Iota Institute and all of the team members from all of those places who contributed to the research in terms of funding and travel, as well as to the publication or the printing of 175 copies which is going out to community and that's ongoing until those are gone. But yeah, so just wanted to highlight their contribution to the project, make sure that they get the credit that's due to them, because that's all really important work that they do in supporting our communities.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, it was just super cool to have that conversation with all of us here. I think there was what 15 or 16 of us, maybe 20, just having a conversation about you know the visual dictionary and what it means for the future, because for me that's a vision of, and actually the jersey is actually part of, that vision. As now, you know, janessa had access to those designs because you were wearing them, but that's pretty much all she had access to those designs because you were wearing them, but that's pretty much all she had access to. But now, people who are from our communities, who want to use it and I would encourage people from our communities to use those designs, symbols and motifs, because those are the things that lift up us as a community.

Speaker 3:

It's the same as our oral language, it's actually our visual language and those are the things that when we look at them, just the same as one of the speakers talks in our language, we can recognize it if you know it and you can recognize it. Well, the same way, when you're wearing that mark, you can know oh hey, where are you from.

Speaker 3:

Right and so we can start to use those things and we can become recognized, because one of my goals has been, and my dream has been, that we become just as recognizable from our artwork as the northwest coast and the woodlands folks, and so it's cool to see that happening on this jersey, so it's just super cool.

Speaker 3:

Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.

Speaker 3:

One of the things I also wanted to touch on a little bit in terms of the work that you have done in community in terms of providing photographs, being a photographer and, you know, going to different events, working in weddings and all of those type of things. So I just want to give you an opportunity to share about what was your reasoning for offering that as a service to community? And also you know what has been that vision that you had. I know you're taking a bit of time off from some of that stuff, but you know it's also something important to lift up because, again, it's making us visible and, uh, it's a beautiful service for our communities um being a photographer.

Speaker 1:

My um main objective was to preserve people's um events so they can enjoy it in the future. I've always enjoyed photos. I have a huge collection that I have tucked away in shoeboxes. And I'm hoping that the people that I'm working with that they could, you know, have that collection. Speaking of that, unfortunately we had a huge fire in Lytton where we lost our town.

Speaker 1:

We lost our one and a half reserves, so I'm glad that I was there to capture all those moments and not only weddings but community events um birthdays, um, I like I'm just so happy that I'm able to give that back to people that that lost everything, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to uh, you know, lift you up in that now and give you an opportunity to share about that, because that's also, you know, big medicine, that's big work that you've done, not only in terms of going there and being able to provide that service, but doing it in a way that people feel comfortable, that you're there and you know how to roll into the scene and yeah, right, yeah but uh also, on the flip side, is uh taking the time and energy to actually gift those things back?

Speaker 3:

because of course, like uh, it is devastating and it gives people just a little bit of comfort and solace to be able to maybe revisit some of those things. Even re went in revisiting them.

Speaker 3:

They're revisiting those places that are now gone yeah right, whether it was out, uh, in the backyard, or whether it was, yeah, you know, uh, people always say, you know, get your photos right. Yeah, these things happen and so you taking the time because it takes time and energy and that's effort and that's work, uh that you put into, uh, you know, collecting those and then sending them. So, yeah, I lift you up again for that, because that's a really good medicine for that for your community, in terms of all of the loss that happened, but also helping them to celebrate in a new way yeah, and um, um the the privilege of having a photo of people who are no longer with us here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and give, give the nap back yeah, big time.

Speaker 3:

That's that's really important to me, yeah and I know you know you have been on some of these trips and these adventures of photography.

Speaker 2:

So what was that?

Speaker 3:

What has been that experience for you in terms of supporting that work?

Speaker 2:

Well, I'm just going to say I'm no professional photographer here, but I get him to put it on the what I call dummy mode and six out of six one turns out. We're happy.

Speaker 3:

But no.

Speaker 2:

I was really happy for him to ask me to to go along with him and do this and be a second camera for him um to help him see his vision.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And I think after the first couple we kind of just figured it out and you know where I needed to be, where he needed to be, and I think that was a really neat thing to do as a couple as well, because it gave us something to work together on as well. So and I appreciate for him bringing me along on that journey Um and Ups and downs for sure, but you know he'll just give me the look.

Speaker 1:

You see it happening right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but no, it was really neat to do that. And the fact that he can now provide, you know, photos of weddings and, like he says, birthdays, or even just a shot of Main Street.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right, even just a shot of main street, yeah Right For people to go. That's my home Right and I think that's really important and I think that really lifts him up to be able to do that for his community.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, big time. Yeah, yeah, it's important work. Um, the one thing I wanted to also explore a little bit is um, you helped do photography for a book recently, maybe a year or two ago. Oh yeah, maybe talk a little bit about that and that'll give us a good segue into some of the work that you're now doing. I believe it's with the same organization, yeah, so maybe so it's all.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's all full circle with everything I was all of our work. I had the privilege of working with Lana from Rise Up, indigenous Wellness, and we collaborated on a book where Lana is getting the youth back onto the land, getting them off of the computers and bringing them into the forest and giving them teachings, not only in Tlacatm but Stetliam, and there were collaborators there from America. So the things that the youth learned were based on traditional games and that kind of thing, and my job was to illustrate the games so I could go along with the instructions in the book. Cool, yeah, it was pretty awesome to do that. Yeah, that project and I love the outcome of the book.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a nice book, yeah yeah, it is cool and having a book signing oh yeah, that was a great experience and where did?

Speaker 1:

you do that. It was a. We did that in Salmon Arm at one of the local coffee shops.

Speaker 2:

Oh cool At Anvil Coffee Shop. Anvil Coffee.

Speaker 1:

There was a lot of pride in that because I got a lot of credit in the book. I invited the chief and my family and they came up and it was a big celebration.

Speaker 3:

Oh, that's cool yeah yeah, we were in the newspaper and it was pretty amazing yeah yeah, no, I think those are those things that, uh, you know, that's one of the reasons I wanted to bring it up, because I think it's important for us to celebrate people who, indigenous people, who are doing awesome stuff right and having more opportunities to celebrate, because we have more than enough times of difficulty and mourning and all of those things dealing with some of those traumas, et cetera, deaths, all of that. It's important for us to also celebrate those victories and those things that are uplifting and help us to move forward right.

Speaker 3:

So I just wanted to give an opportunity to celebrate that and lift you up for doing that, because it's so exciting and so cool to see. And I just actually came across that book again the other day as I was going through my bookshelf. I was like oh so cool.

Speaker 1:

I'm talking about Full Circle. When Janessa did her jersey for the Salmon Arm Silver Box, there was a fundraiser. Yeah, so all the profits from the fundraiser, the money went back to Rise Up Indigenous Wellness.

Speaker 3:

Oh, that's cool yeah.

Speaker 1:

So full circle, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, she got to choose a nonprofit for it to go back to and that's what she thought was appropriate, so that a non-profit for it to go back to and that's what she thought was appropriate.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, that was pretty amazing. That's awesome. So, um, yeah, tell me about rise up, uh, since you've uh started working there, and, yeah, anything that you want to share about that uh, I work with rise up indigenous wellness and salmon arm.

Speaker 2:

Um, lana and cheryl are my bosses. I guess I'd call them, they're my friends. No, I've known, we've known Lana for oh, 16 years I think, as she was the Indigenous worker at South Broadview and that's where our kids attended, and so there's been a relationship with Lana for that long. And you know, last I believe it was last March um, she, lana and Sherelle said we have an opportunity, would you be interested? And I was like, well, what is it? She said well, it's a we're going to call it security food coordinator. Yeah, um, so I get to distribute food bags monthly to about 16 families in Salmon Arm at this point and I couldn't be happier doing what I'm doing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, and they do a lot of workshops with the youth, as well as trying to create different groups, such as girls groups, boys groups, elders groups.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Just to get people together and talking about you know communities and what we can do to help our members.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, and so many different things that they do, but I'm very happy to be there. I said I haven't wanted to work in 13 years and for this opportunity to come up. I was just so happy to do it and to see the when I distribute food and see the, the kids faces light up. You know, because you know there's an, there's a tomato in there you know oh I'm just gonna eat this tomato yeah you know.

Speaker 2:

So that's one of my things is just to see the, the happiness from, from the families and and the elders as well, that we we could support as well, and um, seeing them and having conversations with them. You know, um, because you know they don't always have people there to to have a conversation with, yeah, so to be able to take that time is really important for me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, um, but yeah, I just love it yeah and I I thank lana and cheryl for giving me this opportunity yeah, awesome, lifting them up, rising them up that's great it also gives me an opportunity to help Christine with her work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it's a good flip.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we flip ideas off of each other a lot and it's really neat and even the kids too. They'll be like Mom. What are you doing today, mom? And Sebastian one day came along with me when I did the food boxes, so he got to see me doing that too as well.

Speaker 1:

So it's kind of nice to do it. It's like a family event kind of.

Speaker 3:

Well, it also teaches them a lot, too right In terms of, like, what jobs and what things can look like to help you pay the bills. Right In terms of having that opportunity to give those lessons to them, in terms of that important work that you know, feeding people that need it, right. So it's pretty cool to see that and also to know that they're getting some of those opportunities cultural and community opportunities you know, in Salmon Arm, yeah, which is pretty cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it was really neat for spring break because we worked with Niskanlith and we did two weeks of camp youth camp and so the first week was three days of basketball and then two days of baseball and then the following week was Indigenous camp. So we did things on the land. And for the second week, tyler and Janessa came with me, so that was really cool to have them with me and experience that and see what I do.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, awesome. One thing I wanted to explore as we're starting to wind down, is you got facial markings last summer? I believe it was. You know all the years just kind of blend together. Was it last summer? I think it was last summer, I believe it was. You know all the years just kind of blend together so, yeah, maybe uh share in as much as you're comfortable. Uh, what that?

Speaker 2:

uh, you know what those markings are about if you'd like to, or just you know what was the um drive to get them and or what has been your experience wearing them well, I know, since you started doing the black work and and all that and I've seen um the face tattoos I always wanted one, but I didn't want to just say, put one on me, because that's not what it was about. I think if you're putting something on your body, and especially your face, that you need to be proud of it yeah so it took about five years.

Speaker 2:

I think, um, I had a dream where it was just circles under my eyes, yeah, and then I had consecutive dreams, like I say, over about five years, and it developed into what I have today. Um, and so the three under my eyes are for my kids, and then the West and I own my temple, I guess.

Speaker 3:

Cool. Yeah so yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 2:

And wearing them. It's really funny because I completely forget that I have them, like you know, and it's either you get people that just stare, but then when you look at them, they look away.

Speaker 1:

Oh shit, I got caught.

Speaker 2:

Or you have the opposite, where they do come up to you and they do say, oh, those are nice, but what does it mean? So to have those conversations is important, and I really appreciate it that people do come and ask instead of just staring right. You know, if you want to know, come and come and ask yeah right, I have them on my face because I'm proud of them yeah right, and it's just.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting to see people's reactions yeah, you know, I mean I've never I haven't had anything negative thus far, you know, and yeah, I'm just really proud to have them and the meaning behind them that came to me.

Speaker 3:

Cool, just as we're again winding down, do either of you have anything else that you feel that you'd like to share? You know, I always like to give that opportunity because I always have that experience of, like, going through an interview, you're like, oh, I wish I would have said that, I wish they would have asked me that question. So, yeah, just giving an opportunity for either of you to share any further thoughts about the things that we've already explored or any things that you feel, uh, you'd like to share for people to think about. Yeah, anything, yeah, just an open opportunity to kind of give some final thoughts as we're winding down.

Speaker 2:

I just want to say thank you to you for allowing us or me and us to be on this journey with you in more ways than just getting our tattoos. I think it was amazing to see the progression through doing photos and video on this project and to create those relationships with those people receiving those tattoos. I think that was really important and I appreciate that from you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think it also brings up something important to maybe explore a little bit further, because I forgot about that is when I first thought about bringing people on to do the work of documenting, of course, because some people are basically nude when they're getting the work done. So I thought that was going to be really an intrusive part, you know, like something that was negative for the people. But I realized that it actually was actually an integral and an important part of the project, just because each of you who I've asked to come in as documenters actually contributed a lot to that project, have contributed a lot to that project, have contributed a lot to the project. So maybe, just maybe, some reflection on what it was like to document and to be there, because it wasn't only just documentation, because each of you also offered your gifts in terms of your cultural teachings, whether that was just Chris coming and holding a hand, or placing your hand on someone's foot, or Wes bringing, you know, a smudge when you knew that that person was needed, or, you know sharing, you know maybe, some story or whatever, especially when I think of having Simon there and, you know, just sharing some of that stuff which actually contributed so much to the project and that person's journey.

Speaker 3:

So part of that is for me to accept, you know, you know the thanks that you gave me and for lifting me up, so I appreciate that. But I also appreciate each of you and he'll hold each of you up, because the the reality is is that you both contributed to in the cut with black work in a variety of powerful ways, not only just wearing the work, but documenting the work and then also being the human beings that you are. Um has helped the project because you were able to come into that space where people are in a vulnerable state and document but then also hold that space in such a sacred and powerful way that the people felt okay with you being there. So I hold each of you up and just open up any further comment on that experience.

Speaker 1:

It was definitely an honor to be invited to be part of this project and document it. Traveling to the place of our work, there's always that anxiety Like, oh, what's going to happen? Who's going to be there, what are we going to do? That kind of thing. And then arriving there and realizing hey, I know you. You're from Lytton or we're cousins or that kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

We've worked together in the past. It made it easy being there comfortable. I thank you and all the people that we met and collaborated with for allowing us to be there and be part of it, and I feel like it was a sacred space and us being able to contribute, supporting them emotionally, spiritually, reading the room right, Lighting that smudge, doing prayers. I was pretty shocked when I showed up and Simon was there, who is my cousin from back home in Lytton. It was definitely a blessing to be there and work with him and talk about where I grew up and our family and how this is all related to it. Yeah, that was cool. It's definitely a sacred place when you go in there.

Speaker 1:

It's like a ceremony.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that is the one thing that I've had the opportunity in speaking with people and thinking about it. It's like all of those things that you never like, I never intended and I never knew that you were related and you know, all of these things, these connections and these opportunities that have arisen because of the project is just. It boggles my mind. You know, these are things that you actually could never plan and they just happened because that was the journey that needed to be taken. Right, it was just crazy.

Speaker 1:

Bringing Inflacom people back together. Yeah, it was cool.

Speaker 3:

And that also happened. You know, when I first thought about it, I didn't think that it would be mostly intricate people who would apply, but that's the way that happened yeah and I was like awesome let's do it yeah, any thoughts for you in terms of the documentation or the photography or the support?

Speaker 2:

I think it was really special just to be accepted into people's space, because getting a tattoo isn't something, especially this black work it's not. It's not just from flash art and it. It has a meaning to the people that are getting it. And to be able to be allowed to be in that space with them and in that moment, in whatever they're feeling, was really important yeah, awesome, yeah, and I thank you both for the contribution that you've given, um, as supporters, um, and as photographers and documenters.

Speaker 3:

Um, you know it's uh, it's awesome, and I think that you know it will help to contribute to the lifting up of our communities. Right, because when you think about all of those pieces that were documented that will go into books and go into exhibitions, you know like it's pretty powerful. So I appreciate both of your contribution to that, um, and I just give, yeah, another opportunity for anything else that you'd like to bring up.

Speaker 2:

I don't think I have anything else right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, coming where I come from like 13 years ago and not wanting a tattoo, yeah, and being able to walk around and have that pride, not Not being, not body shaming or skin shaming.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Putting myself out there.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Is awesome, and when I go stand before my ancestors, they will recognize me.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, awesome. Well, I thank you both for taking the opportunity to you know. Come, of course, having a camera right in your face is always a difficult thing.

Speaker 3:

So I thank you both for coming to share with me on the Transformative Marks podcast, and also for sharing in this project and giving me the opportunity to share your story, uh, through the photography that we did and the documentation of each of your work, as well as the work that you did. So I hold uh both of you up and I thank you, uh for uh your contribution to this journey. Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me, uh, through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed. Thank you very much.

Speaker 3:

I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. And over next week's episode, we're going to talk to Gregory Williams, a Haida tattoo artist, and in this episode, we talk about the connection between leaving a legacy and honoring those who have passed in our work as artists and cultural tattoo practitioners. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.