Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Resilience Through Art: Greg Williams's Journey of Healing and Haida Tattoo Revival
#043 Greg Williams, a Haida tattoo artist, musician, and jewelry maker, takes us on a profound journey of healing and creativity in this episode. We explore how personal tragedy, such as the devastating loss of his daughter, led Greg through battles with substance abuse before finding redemption and purpose in art. His transformative experience in New Zealand, where a vibrant community rekindled his passion for tattooing, is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the power of communal support in reconnecting with one's roots.
The episode highlights the significance of Indigenous Tattoo gatherings like Toi Kiri, where artists find both personal growth and professional inspiration. Greg shares his narrative of overcoming self-doubt and embracing new experiences, illustrating how these events foster a sense of belonging among Indigenous tattoo artists. The rich emotional connections formed during the tattooing process offer solace to both artists and clients, showcasing the deep cultural ties and energy exchanges that are integral to Indigenous art forms.
We also delve into Greg's musical journey, a passion deeply embedded in his family's legacy. From childhood performances to present-day aspirations of playing alongside his children, music remains a powerful outlet for self-expression and healing in his life. Together, we celebrate the intersection of art, culture, and community, and how these elements can guide one through life's challenges. Join us for an exploration of creativity's transformative power and how it shapes identity, fosters connection, and brings about personal and artistic evolution.
You can find Greg at:
Instagram @haida_inkk
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
After doing that for a little while, her cancer came back and she had to go to Philadelphia for radiation treatment with my wife and it didn't end well. You know, she passed away at the age of 10, 5 years later, so I didn't have to really do much. It started to spiral down with alcohol and drugs.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I have helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Kaju Kaya. That's my Haida name. I'm from the Skidans clan of the Haida Nation. My English name, which I actually just learned, is a welsh name oh, wow, williams, yeah, um, but, as you know, the our last names were given to us. So I don't know, there's no really history with our, with our family, more than a couple generations of that last name, but it's uh. My english name is gregory williams. Uh, I go, uh, I noticed that people have been calling me by my nickname, which is gig yeah much more marketable than my english name, yeah, and a lot easier to say than my high name, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I I just go with that. Really awesome. I'm a tattoo artist and a musician and I've been making jewelry for like over 20 years now Wow, but tattooing being my most favorite thing to do, I noticed, besides being a dad yeah, and a husband, yeah, and a friend yeah, tattooing's the next.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the next thing up. Yeah, so tell me the journey that brought you to be tattooing.
Speaker 1:I guess as an artist as a child. Yeah, it's always interested me to be an artist and to be a musician since a very young age and there was a year, from a year like 16 to the age of 25, I guess I was pretty lost and just partying and being an idiot really. Yeah. And that's probably like my prime as a singer, like vocally. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I've been singing for, like you know, over 30 years and playing music for over 30 years, and I've always loved drawing as a kid but never really thought of it being a full-time career.
Speaker 1:You know, I guess I don't really consider it a job. Yeah, you know, we're drawing. It's so much fun, man, I never pictured myself being a full-time artist and as I got older, I started to lean towards what I loved doing as a child, as being someone who just sat around and drew pictures all day. And it became a reality after I started making jewelry and my daughter finished her last chemo session, her first round of chemo, and she was doing fine at the time. She got cancer when she was five, wow, and they gave her like six months to live Wow, which still blows my mind, man yeah, that feeling of like hearing that it's just it's still to me, you know, because we lost her and it's still a daily struggle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, for us mentally and physically and spiritually, and tattooing for me really helps 100 art and music really helped get me through. Of course, obviously, my wife and my son were like the forefront of my mental health. Yeah, um, and I think the reality set in that I wanted to become a tattoo artist and, um, her last day of chemo I had the opportunity to go to a school, you know similar to what you had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and long story short, I left that day and came back a month later with the acquired beginner skills to become a tattoo artist and for for the next little while I was doing bad tattoos on my family and my friends.
Speaker 1:You know how it is and some people evolve a lot quicker, but for me it was a little slower. But after doing that for a little while her cancer came back and she had to go to Philadelphia for radiation treatment with my wife and it didn't end well. Hmm, you know, she passed away at the age of 10, five years later. So I didn't tattoo for, really do much and start to spiral down with alcohol drugs yeah.
Speaker 1:I started to I guess uh, I can't find the word, but it was tough, man. Yeah, very down down a very dark hole yeah and didn't feel myself evolving anymore as a person or as an artist. And then, with my son, asked me one day to just dad, I want you to quit drinking.
Speaker 1:My wife obviously wanted me to, yeah as well right and uh, it was like probably she passed away 11 years ago, this May 11th Wow. And eight years ago I quit drinking. Wow, and my life completely changed. Yeah, I wouldn't be here talking to you if I didn't. Yeah. And then I still felt empty. You know, my wife and I were growing apart. Even though I was sober. Quit drinking sugar, quit drinking alcohol, quit doing drugs. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I felt like I wasn't evolving still as a person and as an artist. I threw it out into the universe a couple years ago that I needed help. Ironically, you answered, which still blows my mind. You messaged me out of the blue. You're like we need to talk. So I was like more than happy to anything. Yeah, and another long story short you got me to New, to new zealand, to spend, uh, to meet, you know, our new family. Well, yeah, your family already, but the, uh, our family and friends in new zealand, um, for these workshops yeah and uh, my life has changed completely since then yeah.
Speaker 1:I've evolved into more the person who I wanted to be, yeah, who. I'm still following that path, spiritually, mentally, of the person I wanted to be inside, as well as the artist I wanted to become, and jumped on a plane. I'm telling you, man, we barely got, even got there. You know, yeah, a good friend of mine, patrick Shannon actually, he's the one who got paid for me to go there. Wow, he does media and coaching, business coaching. Yeah, he's a member of the haida nation.
Speaker 1:But without you and him at that particular moment in time to get me to new zealand, man, I don't know where I would have been now. You know, I wouldn't have fell off the wagon by any means. Yeah, but as far as artistically and spiritually, I don't know if I would evolve the way I wanted to evolve without going there and um, meeting you, and nahan, of course, and q and julius, and linda, and, uh, and like auntie linda, as you know, it's just, she's amazing, they're all amazing, julie, chantel, and I could go on with a list of people that you know. Queue, I wish we could live there, man. I wish the bridge between us and them was like from here to Vancouver.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, yeah. But that's really brought me here today with you is that journey of going to Aratora and the maori and the tahitians and samoans.
Speaker 1:they're, as you know, very giving people yeah and the energy that's created in in these environments for me is is contagious and it keeps me going. Yeah, you know, really, every time I see you in the han, you know, like, you guys are really inspired me as a tattoo artist, cause you guys, really you started this movement in Canada for us. You know, yeah, and I'm glad to follow in your steps. You know, even though they're a little too big for me, um, seeing you in the Han, really, you know, it's uh, it's special to me, the relationship that I have with you guys, yeah, and it really keeps me motivated on the right path, the red road as well, yeah, you know, to still continue to evolve as an artist, to never, ever think that, oh, I got that licked. Yeah, because, as you know, it doesn't happen that way. No, yeah, because, as you know, it doesn't happen that way. And no, um, just the, uh, the people that I've met, uh, and going on that road, yeah, that route that you put me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it also got me in contact with the shop that I've been guest spotting in vancouver yeah, called liquid amber tattoo awesome collective in vancouver, and the uh with the interview that I did with you led me to an interview with them. Yeah, for uh, indigenous tattooing. Yeah, and uh led to a guest spot. Wow, the last three years I've been like 40 50 hours a week when I go there, man, and that's not something I can do at home all the time, but it's really uh, it's kept my chops up, so to speak. Yeah, you know it's like a guitar, but good guitar player hanging around better guitar players. Yeah, you know you evolve and become better and, yeah, that's how I feel when I'm around you guys. You know, watching you tattoo and the pieces that you do for me inspire me to keep on moving forward yeah, yeah, reaching, reaching to the next thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I wouldn't not a jedi yet, yeah, but I can feel that you're moving, that I'm evolving that way. You know, I don't have my clients following me around yet like you do but it's so cool though, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really this journey for me the last three years is, uh, my wife and I get along a lot better. She likes me again. Yeah, I'm a little too old to be homeless, yeah, but it's uh really like that. Uh, that connection I've made on that first trip to this workshops in toro, so, yeah, they still.
Speaker 1:It's still uh, I can't really put into words what what that relationship and that connection that I've made through you with them, you know, and that when we're all together it's like it's like the Beatles being together. It's like, wow, it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just so, so powerful man, it's like, it's like the beatles, yeah, being together, it's like wow, look at this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just so, so powerful man, and I just can't get enough of it awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's uh I, I would uh mirror or mirror or like uh, you know, uh, I can relate to what you were saying because you know, I would say that you know, 2015 for me, uh, we went to Altaroa for the first time and it was just me. I didn't know anybody when I went there, yeah, and so when I rolled up there, you know, uh, el Festin from the Mark of the Four Waves tribe, kind of like you know, was like hey of the four waves tribe, kind of like you know, was like hey, let's meet up. And so we met up and then he started to introduce me to a bunch of folks. So it was interesting to go there in that year and I would say that that sense of feeling and community, I totally get that. That that was like when I arrived there and I met everybody, it was like, oh, I'm home, like this is my family yeah, instantly, like auntie linda, I think was a big part of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's the first. Well, chantelle was the first person I met and she's, as you know, very friendly and welcoming. Yeah, I stayed with her and, uh, she let my jet lag, so she let me go to sleep for like eight hours and you know, having some estranged dude in your house, you know it must have been a little odd for her, but, and then, of course, auntie Linda and Julie are so welcoming. Yeah, just being on the marais, yeah, it's amazing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I guess, for those folks who are watching and listening, we're talking about Toikiri, which is uh usually in uh the fall, like October, november of every year. This year it's October In October this year, yeah, and it's in uh Tauranga or Mount Maunganui um uh Aotearoa, new Zealand. So, uh, check it out. If check it out, if you're an indigenous tattoo artist, cultural tattoo practitioner, head on over to Toi Kiri webpage and check out and get registered and come on over life changing if you're an artist.
Speaker 1:it's definitely life changing if you want to center yourself, speak as an artist and as a person, and I think being surrounded by such talented and open-minded artists really help you to evolve as a person. You know, and every word you said about the experience has been true in some yeah, words you said about the experience has been true.
Speaker 2:and then some yeah, you know, yeah, I would say that, um, you know it, that I think that experience of feeling disconnected especially with as or I guess, not having connection to other practitioners, other indigenous tattoo artists, I think is a pretty common thing, like a lot of folks are just in their shop, you know, working with awesome people that you know maybe are non-indigenous, but you don't have that same connection because you don't have those same similar experiences. And so when you go to something like you know Toikiri or you know even here heard the response of those folks who came out to the opening of true tribal, the exhibition here in vancouver they were like wow, like this is the first time I've been in a space where there was that many indigenous tattoo artists and that's just a small amount yeah, oh yeah you know, and you would know more than me or us what's out there in.
Speaker 1:Canada and North America for Indigenous people, yeah, which, yeah, you're right. It's pretty cool because it felt really powerful when we're all standing there introducing ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was cool man. Yeah, it was pretty awesome. You know, I just want to. I appreciate all of the things that you shared and I'm thankful that you took those opportunities that came up and that you were able to take from each of those experiences what you needed to help you to become the person that you want to be. So I lift you up for taking those opportunities, because not everybody does right. Those life-changing opportunities come up but sometimes we find we're too busy or we feel like we don't deserve it, or we feel like, you know, scared or intimidated, or you feel like, you know, maybe I'm not the right person. All of those doubts, self-doubt good enough not good enough.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, uh, the imposter syndrome kicks in all of that stuff. So I hold you up because you know it does take courage sometimes to go and do those things. So, uh, you know, I'm thankful that you did that and I just hold you up and taking those steps that you needed to. You know even the steps to stop. You know to become clean and to live your life in a way that benefits you and your family in the best way. So that's awesome and I lift you up for that thanks, man, like it's.
Speaker 1:uh, it was like seeing in color and clarity after, yeah, I quit drinking it. Drinking and drinking one night a week ended up being two and then three, and then just trying to go to sleep Because the first thing and last thing I think of every morning is wow, she really passed away. Man, she's not here anymore, we still try to wrap our brains around that, but we've learned how to live for her, yeah, and not carry around that negative energy and turning it into positive energy because like I know I'll see her again yeah, you know yeah and um.
Speaker 1:This whole last three years after meeting you guys has allowed me to create good energy every day and try to lift people up around me versus trying to blanket their happy and good energy. Create good energy for people Because good energy is so contagious, man, that little tingling you get when you're talking to people. Yeah. It's a good feeling and with what's going on around the world right now multiple countries, man the world's future is very unpredictable and unclear. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:And people like yourself and other artists. They have the opportunity to create good energy and, to you know, somehow aid people to get through this, this mental battle that the world's going through. Yeah, uh, obviously the physical, with the war part, but yeah, it's unhealthy yeah, big time you know it's an unpredictable future and it's being around these people helps us get through. Yeah, life a lot easier, I think yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:So, um, I would, uh, you know, let's back up a little bit and tell me about your shop that you have the name of it.
Speaker 1:You know what you got going on there the tattoo shop I have is called Haida Ink. It's on Haida Gwaii in Dajing Geats, that's the southern town of Haida Gwaii. I've had it for the last 8 years, since I became clean and starting to evolving into a person. Yeah, uh, the first couple years wasn't very pretty. It was a very ugly room with a couple little chairs and it didn't have much going on for it. Yeah, and now that I look back at it, I was like what?
Speaker 2:Really yeah, but I had to start somewhere. You got to start somewhere, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know I can see why people at home may have not seen the confidence in the shop or me. Yeah, considering how it looked. Yeah, but I knew I had to start somewhere and just jump in with both feet and just start getting better, yeah, and gain people's confidence and trust as an artist. Yeah, and it's been eight years now and I'm starting to feel that my art's getting to where I'm comfortable and confident really confident about what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, confident uh really confident about what I'm doing. Yeah and um, I feel that, uh, having this shop is is a gift and the opportunity for me to tattoo people is is a gift. Yeah, I feel very lucky and fortunate to be able to do this for a living. Yeah, and to share that with other indigenous people and other people in general who are not indigenous, and I'm finding more and more people who are very conscious and about, uh, cultural appropriation appropriation.
Speaker 1:Yeah and um the requests I get, the very lengthy, detailed messages of why they want indigenous art yeah and for me it's really cool to see that evolving, yeah, where people are caring where the art comes from yeah and who's doing it? Yeah, there was a point and in our nation where we didn't have any hide artists, mm-hmm to tattoo us, yeah, and we didn't have anybody who was high to show us how to tattoo, yeah, so I learned from a friend of mine in Ontario. That school I went to Mark Perrin he's Greek. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, Greek taught me how to tattoo, which is cool, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:And we have some non-Indigenous artists on our island who have been practicing indigenous art, who still tattoo hide art yeah um, there was a point in in time where we didn't have anybody else to do this besides someone non-indigenous, yeah, and even to show us, uh, how to tattoo, yeah, echoing, who taught me? Um? But we've come to the point now where we have more indigenous people. How to people from our nation who tattoo, yeah, who can continue to tattoo indigenous people on our island people and I don't want to say that we don't need their help anymore, but you don't need their help anymore.
Speaker 1:We don't I'll say, I'll say it you don't have to, I'll say it for you yeah, you're right, though we've come past that now and I think, like you wouldn't see me tattooing mati art, not for anything yeah and when I bring this up in uh toanga yeah they're still like what yeah, really yeah, um, but the artist at home, I, you know, I really respect her as an artist and a person, yeah, and I respect her a lot and as much, just that I won't mention her name, yeah, you know, because I yeah, I don't want people trashing on her man because she's a really cool person. Yeah, yeah, totally, I really respect her and yeah, actually, and there's people who think it's still okay to get tattooed by an indigenous person, getting indigenous art yeah you know, and I've heard people say well, you don't see the Irish or Japanese or Chinese complain when people do their art, and I thought about it.
Speaker 1:To me, they have a very long history, written history and verbal history of their art and their culture and it's a lot. I don't want to say richer, but it's been recorded longer. Yeah. And there's no threat to their culture or their art. Yeah, with people who get Celtic art or Chinese or Japanese dragons. What we have, we're holding onto dearly. Yeah what we have we're holding on to dearly. Yeah, as you know and other people may or may not know that indigenous people are evolving into who they used to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the resurgence of art and culture is coming back with the language. Yeah, and it's one of the few things that we own and have, yeah, and keep dear to us, and I understand why a lot of people in the indigenous communities get very offended when people use our art inappropriately. Yeah, and it's something that we still need to hold on dear to and it's something that we're allowed to do again, yeah, and I understand that you know, and uh, echoing back to these, not needing the assistance of non-indigenous people to tattoo us anymore. Hopefully that more indigenous people will be inspired to learn how to tattoo, yeah, from indigenous people. Yeah, you know, um, I would never say that I'm a master at tattooing, um, but I think I've evolved enough to teach other people how to tattoo, yeah, successfully and properly. To cross contamination and being clean and being sterile is so important, and it's something I know that you're just as obsessed with as I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and um, I think we have the capabilities of teaching many indigenous people how to tattoo now yeah, big time and like you know of course, you already know this with your, with earth, your earth line school yeah and uh, first time I've heard you, I was like what, who is this guy? Yeah, there was no animosity, or like you know try not to swear or anything.
Speaker 2:Go ahead and swear, it doesn't matter like who in the fuck?
Speaker 1:is this guy, you know, but I was like more curious, like I'd try, you know, start looking into more of what you do, I'm like this guy's got his shit together.
Speaker 1:Man, you know, and and I immediately start looking your direction for guidance um, not so much not for the, uh, the the inspiration of hide art, yeah, but the inspiration of tattooing and the mindset of being an indigenous tattoo artist. I didn't have that yet. Yeah, you know, I'm still, of course, evolving, but from our first conversation with you until now, I'm like a completely yeah, it's a big difference yeah, total, total transformation oh, yeah, man, yeah, you know, and the tattoos that you've given me you know really, every day I wake up and it reminds me yeah, keep fucking going, motherfucker, just keep doing what you were doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, you man, you know, and you know, unfortunately, on our island it's a bit of a popularity contest with who tattoos them, and non-Indigenous people, or even Indigenous people from other communities, come to the island and they feel very, you know, fortunate to get tattooed by an Indigenous artist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where some people didn't really care who tattooed them yeah and I've learned to for that not to affect how I feel and I think yeah, there was a couple years where I was just fucking pissed yeah you know and took it personally yeah you know, and you know, and looking back at it, you know like shaking my head like it's okay, man, yeah, just move on. Yeah, you know, and I've learned to. You know like shaking my head like it's okay, man, yeah, Just move on. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know and I've learned to listen to that my son and my wife are really like on a daily basis. Keep me in check. Yeah. You know, because they've seen me at my worst. Yeah, you know, and they've seen me where I'm at my elements of being my best.
Speaker 1:Yeah me where I'm at my elements of being my best. Yeah, and they've seen me struggle artistically, mentally and you know, with the addiction and yeah, um, they, they supported me the whole time. You know, and going to talonga the first time, that was like the last straw, you know, we were barely yeah, she's barely clinging on to me, you know, and she's like ready to kick me overboard. You know, we were barely yeah, she's barely clinging on to me, you know, and she's like ready to kick me overboard you know, evolve or fuck off you know yeah and um.
Speaker 1:Coming back she saw the difference in me spiritually yeah and um, it's allowed me to. The last three years of being in toronto has allowed me and being around you guys has allowed me me to move on and not let this affect me anymore Of people getting tattooed by a non-Indigenous person. Yeah, you know, to each his their own. Yeah big time. And one day they're going to someone's going to ask Mo, who did that? Yeah.
Speaker 1:That tattoo and they're going to have to answer them. Yeah, you know, and I, mo, who did that yeah, that tattoo, and they're going to have to answer them. Yeah, you know, and I'm okay with that, you know, because I love what I do and I love the people that I do it on. Yeah, and that exchanging of energy throughout the tattoo and you can feel them evolve. Yeah, their demeanor completely changes over time. Yeah, and they're becoming who they want to become. Yeah, you know changes over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they're becoming who they want to become. Yeah, you know, because everybody's going through something every day big time. You know like life is hard, man, and some people are just torn behind those smiles, you know yeah, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes.
Speaker 1:No, man and people really open up to you. When you get a tattoo, yeah, there's very few that don't say much, yeah, but you could feel it. When they're done, there's, yeah, that little head nod and just that fist pump, you know, yeah, it means just as much as a hug and tears. Yeah, you know everybody's different you know, and I've really again, it's something that I've learned from my son and my wife. You know that. You know nobody's perfect, yeah, and everybody's going through something.
Speaker 3:My wife, you know that you know, nobody's perfect, yeah, and everybody's going through something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I really, you know, you're a big part of me. I don't know if I'm or not, but you're a big part of who I've become this last few years being around you, nahan, really my wife notices it too. When I'm around you guys, it's just like calm, you know, like it just really settles me in to becoming, because I'm not. I have a couple of good bros at home that I hang out with. Yeah, not many.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my bro Tripper and Jesse and my friend Nick, these are. I have other friends, but these are the friends that I connect with the most. Yeah, and they keep me grounded as well. Yeah, you know, because I don't have the opportunities to hang out with you in the hunt every day as much as I want to. Yeah, yeah, well, when I'm around you guys, my wife notices right away. She seems like those guys totally mellow you out.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm you know, because I hate being, I hate anger, I hate negative energy. Mm-hmm, I hate anger, I hate negative energy and I'm doing my best to not let stuff bother me at home. Yeah, you know, I love being at home, I love being on hide and go in. Yeah, the people are great. You know some situations up there. It's a small community, yeah, and sometimes it gets hard for us to live up there, as beautiful as it is. Yeah, but the culture and the people really make you feel that you need to be there. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:You know I'll never catch up to someone like Nahan culturally, yeah, or even like Corey Bullpitt or, you know, kuiwa they're the other two. They both hand poke tattoo. Yeah, that they don't do full time, I think it's like a part time thing for them. Yeah, but I'll never be as culturally rich as them. Yeah, not in this lifetime. Yeah, there's no way.
Speaker 1:You know like I feel the same way they do, yeah, about our culture and their spiritual beliefs. But they've got brought up, you know, since they're little, yeah, with the culture and the language. And then you know, unfortunately I I had to move away when I was a child, it's like five years old, and I came back when I was 18. Yeah, and kind of saw, during that time I didn't know where I came from.
Speaker 1:My wife sorry my mom would always say you're different, yeah, indigenous, you come from more like Pacific indigenous people. They're in canoes. Yeah, pacific indigenous people where they're in canoes. And she kind of related it to more about being not Polynesian but in that realm of the same influence, because the indigenous people where I grew up in Edmonton for 15 years in the interior of Prince George, it's different, and she always explained that the Haida people were different indigenous people and when I moved home and discovered why I like drawing and why I like playing music and art. Community is very culturally rich with artists. Everybody does some kind of art at home. Yeah, and it's really cool to see the people of Skidding it and Masset are very again, I'm going to use the word culturally rich. Yeah.
Speaker 1:They've evolved into a very strong community with culture, with dancing, singing, yeah, and it's beautiful to see. You know, and I just don't have the mental capacity to remember the language I could speak it by looking at it. Yeah, like I can read it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I can't understand it. Yeah, you know, like my Uncle Harvey and my late Auntie Laura and my Uncle Duke they're the three language speakers, like the full-speaking Haida people who teach left. My auntie passed away now but I have that close of a connection to learn the language. But I don't have the capacity in my brain to remember shit anymore. Yeah, since 1992, I noticed, since the answer that came to be you know yeah because I play music every song before 92.
Speaker 1:I still remember yeah anything now, man, I still gotta look at some kind of reference. Yeah, you know, I think for me. I still have a lot to learn about tattooing. Yeah, and myself and people in general, and I'm looking forward to the journey that continues yeah, of evolving yeah yeah, you know, because if I feel this good already about it, yeah. It's going gonna get fucking more and more and more. Yeah, you know even with it like literally every tattoo. You know, I'm still.
Speaker 2:There's stuff that happens throughout that too, I'm like oh yeah, yeah, oh, that was nice yeah, yeah, I wanted to uh touch back on the you know some of the stuff that you shared about uh appropriation and uh, you know a lot of people don't understand that, and the way that I relate it uh is to a meme that I seen where, uh, in the meme there's two pictures and one is of uh native children in residential school and the other picture is white kids playing cowboys and Indians, and you know it says you know the reason that we you know that what that shows is that the reason sometimes we get pissed off is because they were allowed.
Speaker 2:There was a time when they were allowed to play Indian, and they're continuing to play Indian, but it was illegal and it was a constant process of elimination of our indigeneity and who we were, as Haida, as Tlingit, as Creeree, as Intukamukw people, and so that legislation of who we are is one of the reasons why we get so pissed off when they continue to play Indian.
Speaker 2:When now we're here and you can come to us to get that work done, if you really want to get that work done, you know there's some of us who are willing to share the gifts from our cultures and our communities with the world. You know some other people don't feel like they can share, and that's their prerogative, that's up to them. But some of us yourself and me included are willing to offer that gift to the world from our cultures and our communities, you know. So just step into the reality that you know, uh, if you're looking to get work indigenous tattoos, artwork go to somebody who is from that culture, that community, and ask them because, number one, you're allowing them to share that gift. Number two, you're helping to support that community, their family, you're helping to support that indigenous artist and uh, yeah, so just wanted to put that out there. That the reality is is we get pissed off because you're still playing indian and you're allowed to play indian. Well, it was illegal for us to be who we are yeah, man.
Speaker 1:One thing I've also noticed is sometimes I feel that, man. One thing I've also noticed is sometimes I feel that at home I'm not indigenous enough yeah, and out in the world, I'm not white enough. Yeah, you know, being ukrainian and haida, these are two cultures that are still getting picked on. Yeah, look what's happening in ukraine yeah, big time and um, we're definitely not built.
Speaker 1:We're not built to break. Yeah, you know, and I even think that, uh, um, you know, echoing, the last three years have made me pretty strong and our people have made us. All they did is people make each other strong? Yeah you know, and people's opinions can vary, and people's opinions can really hurt and dampen yes, someone yeah you know, with what's happened to us with our daughter, yeah, and kai has uh really taught me how to to move forward with my time, short time with her. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's also made me think that people are wasting their time not liking me. Yeah, yeah. You know I'm okay with it. Yeah. I'm not meant to make everybody in this world happy. Yeah. And we're meant to have enemies, you know. Unfortunately, some have more than others. Yeah, we're meant to have enemies. Unfortunately, some have more than others. I can honestly say don't waste your time not liking me. Because it's just going to bounce off me now. I don't need that energy.
Speaker 1:And I only carry good energy and I only like to create good energy. And. I've evolved enough now to confidently say you know, it doesn't bother me anymore. Yeah, you know, for one reason or another, whether it's the way I look or my height, or you know even something that my, the old version of me, may have done or said yeah you know, uh, I feel I've rectified my mistakes in my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm only here to make positive choices and create positive energy, to create good artwork, as best artwork as I can, whether it's Haida or another type of indigenous art from another nation, yeah, another type of indigenous art from another, uh nation, yeah, um, I do my best to um to provide for my family, yeah, to be the best friend I can for people and to be as honest as I can about anything and sometimes this the truth I speak.
Speaker 1:People don't like it, yeah, they don't. It hurts, yeah, right. And I've evolved enough to where that's just the way it is with me now. Yeah. You may not like what I'm saying, but it's really the honest version of me. Yeah. You know, and I'll be the first to admit the last 30 years selling drugs, doing things that were not honest, yeah, and I can understand why people still may think that I'm that version of me. Yeah. You know, but I'm not, yeah, and it feels good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. It feels real good. Yeah, I'm glad you're here and you made it through all that stuff, because not everybody makes it through those times and those you know, for a variety of reasons. So I'm thankful that you're here and that you know you're doing the things that you need to do to become and continue to evolve into the person that you want to be the best version of yourself person that you want to be the best version of yourself.
Speaker 1:In the last few years, you know, and hope I'm not forgetting anybody, you know, but meeting you and nahan yeah, auntie linda, julie chantel yeah, cute, daniel julius, yeah, you know, the tahitians like, yeah, these are people that's like. Yeah, these are people. That's the conversations, to echo my mind, and they really helped me move forward. Still, yeah, you know, and some of the relationship we have over time, yeah, may not mean as much to one person as it does the other. Yeah, you know, but really, if I didn't connect with you, man, I would not be here. I wouldn't have evolved into the person who I want to be and am becoming.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know yeah. Especially artistically, you know, yeah, I'm just like those motherfuckers.
Speaker 1:man, I got to pull my fucking socks up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, start running, because you guys are doing really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and um, you and the han have, uh, such a way you carry yourselves artistically and personally and um, two different dudes. Yeah, you know he's very, as you know, he's very mellow and, yeah, his stoic and yeah, he can say just as much as you without saying nothing sometimes. Yeah, which is cool. Yeah totally yeah, man.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say that I think there's an important thread to maybe pull from there that isn't fully articulated but is important to highlight. Highlight and I think that is that you know, uh, for people who are listening, you know, maybe, uh practitioners that are coming up or folks who haven't had opportunities uh, to go to an event that has a large amount of indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners there, and that feeling, that energy that you will get there is transformational.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, find an opportunity, whether that's a tattoo gathering at Tyendanega, whether that's an exhibition opening like the one we just had here at True Tribal at the Museum of Vancouver, or whether that's Toikiri in Aotearoa in New Zealand, or whether's you know uh, the Indigenous Tattoo Festival.
Speaker 2:You know, there's so many different places where we're gathering as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers, and so take that opportunity if it comes up, because it will change your life and it will give you uh help you to build relationships that support you in your life's journey, but also in your artistic journey. And sometimes that's not even necessarily that you're going to have the best of friends when you go to that place, but you'll find inspiration. But on those, for those lucky people, you get to meet people, uh, that become your friends and you build relationships with. So you know, uh, for those who are coming up, these are places for you to uh build who you are as an artist and a person 100 man, that support that you get, uh, in the workshops and even just being in the room together and talking.
Speaker 1:I've heard other people when we're there in Tolonga saying how powerful it is, like when they're on the outside looking in. I heard some people talking. It's like, wow, you feel that energy in there. Everybody individually has a powerful energy and demeanor to them. You know, and I think it's uh, it's very healthy, yeah, big time it's very healthy creating that, that source of energy. You know, like I I think I said to you the other day, it's like when you plug your phone into charge and you see the battery going up, yeah, you walk out of there glowing, you know, big time, you know I was related to the video game
Speaker 2:your battery starts to charge totally and hey, there, listeners, it's dion kazis, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Wwwko-ficom forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Another thing that I've learned over the last few years is being positive and looking at people who I know you know may not like you. I should say me yeah um I look at, I get the. I look at positive things out of them yeah, and and still try to create good energy, because, whether you like me or not, I'm still going to respect you yeah and I've learned to, um, to understand and be that some people need to have that person to throw the negative energy on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't like that guy yeah fuck him you know, and I'm okay with that, yeah, you know, because I can take it and I can absorb that negative energy and I can throw back good energy at you. Yeah, big time. And I'm still going to continue to do this, and not only for my daughter and my wife and my son and my new friends and my brothers, but for them, yeah, to try to help them evolve. Yeah, big time, you know. And, um, not everybody has art yeah and music.
Speaker 1:Yeah to to rely on. Yeah, as you know it can do so much for you. Just tattooing for a day, you know, it makes you feel good yeah, and some people don't have that outlet. Yeah you know, and it's hard for them to, to, to move through life, yeah, without knowing even what that energy is. Yeah, you know, and there's other ways, you know. Some people skydive or, yeah, they get that adrenaline rush. Yeah, but I truly believe that the energy that's created through art and music is different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's magic yeah, big time, 100, 100 magic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you can feel it. Yeah, you can feel it through the tattoo, you know, and it's um very addicting like I mentioned to you the other day that I'm highly addicted to tattooing yeah, and the energy it brings yeah, yeah, that's a good uh.
Speaker 2:I like how you uh articulated that, as when I think about it, like when I articulate the tattoo medicine, you know got the shirt from, uh, natalie standing cloud brought it up from, uh, you know, oklahoma, cherokee nation, uh for the exhibition, and I've talked about tattoo medicine. I guess that is related to the person receiving it, but you're talking about magic. So tattoo magic, and I would say that that is maybe more associated with the experience of the practitioner, the person doing the work. You know, because I definitely know that you sometimes my own mind can start running around, but when I get into the work, when I start tattooing, when I sit down to do that, it just calms down and I'm able to be present in that exact moment, at that time, and I have to focus, and so I would say that that is the magic for me is being able to just be in that one spot and just to focus on that one thing.
Speaker 1:And the, the exchanging of energy, uh, for me is very powerful. You know, and some more than others, you can feel them evolve from the beginning of the tattoo to the end, big time, and you're you're getting them. You know, you're understanding what they want to get out of it. It's like water being thrown on you. It's just like a blanket of positive, good energy. I just love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time. So I just want to shift gears a little bit and ask you about your music. Tell me about that. What type of stuff do you do? What has that journey been? Any of that type of stuff you want to share?
Speaker 1:Since I was little, I've always been fascinated with music. Yeah. Drums in particular at the time, and knew that I liked singing, but I never thought that I could, you know, become a musician. You know, my dad and my mom are both musicians and both sides of my family are pretty musically inclined. Yeah, like my Ukrainian side of the family, most of them. Yeah, one of them is my cousin, adam is a, uh, music teacher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, plays a few instruments and sings and is a professional opera singer. Yeah, uh, my cousin alex is also a musician and my both of my grandparents on the ukrainian side are both musicians. My mom, uh, plays guitar and piano and sings. Yeah, my dad played drums and sang yeah um, my uncle uh played saxophone and both. It's hard for me not to get get that you know, and as I got older, I was understanding.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see yeah I see why I like this so much. Yeah and um, I've been playing music for about 30 years and it started out really in um prince george, when I lived there for a time, a place called the urban coffee house. Okay, um, every sunday you go there and it's like an open mic. 90s was a very, a very inspiring time for music with seattle grunge, yeah, and just the live music scene was a lot better than yeah, as to compare to now. My brother and I were talking last night it's fucking hard to even find a jam in vancouver anymore. Yeah, live music has got really kicked to the side. Yeah and um, in the 90s you could go and watch a band five days a week open mics. It was just littered with musicians in the 90s and this guy named andre bailey and from prince george.
Speaker 1:One day he, uh, I was talking with him and I told him I really like singing yeah I've had a few friends of mine yeah this fellow named laurence treve and another guy named trent potskin when I was in high school they're like holy fuck man, he can actually sing. Yeah I'm just down, walking down the road on the way to school, singing anyway, I'm like fuck off, yeah as if no, really, man, that sounded good, yeah, so they'd get me to sing to them, sometimes on the way to the school, because they liked it. Never did.
Speaker 1:I think that I'd be able to become a singer, and then one day my friend, andrew Bailey said I'm going to bring you to a place called the Urban Coffee House. You're going to love it. It's exactly what you need. I think he's like the music version of you for me. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So he picked me up, brought me there and then I was instantly hooked and I met other musicians who helped me evolve into a player, like a friend of mine Chris Tebow, mark and Tony Reggenwater, mike M, mike mian, their drummer, wayne at the time. These people and, uh, our late great friend, dan england, who passed away from covid, but these guys gave me the opportunity from salmon arm, yeah, yeah, I knew, I knew him wow, he's like a dear friend of mine yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew him In that small fucking world man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's crazy. No kidding, yeah, he was like a dear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I know, he taught music.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, big dude, yeah big big guy. That's weird man in a small fucking world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's crazy that I remembered his name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like he's one of the first guys I went on the road with with chris tebow, and we had a band called smoking pistols and I was wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:I was just oblivious to providing for myself. Then, yeah, but that's a trip that blows my fucking mind like he was a real dear friend of mine. Yeah, yeah and uh, he was actually gonna come up and spend a few months at our house before he passed. Yeah, and we were going to make an album. Yeah, and after meeting these guys, they gave me the opportunity to play at a level, because they're all great musicians. Musically, like playing instruments, I wasn't at that level, but vocally they saw something in me that I could do.
Speaker 1:Yeah at that level, but vocally, they saw something me that I could do. Yeah, so it allowed me to grow as a as a musician quick, quicker and uh, my late, uh friend I played with him for over 20 years. Ron souza yeah, I learned a lot from him as a musician and, um, he was a also a dear friend of dance, okay, and the three of us were gonna make an album together. Yeah, they both passed away. Wow, my friend ron passed away last year and it was a hard, hard pill to swallow and it's still. I'm still getting used to, yeah, playing without him. Yeah, because he helped me. I would say chris, chris Tebow, dan England and Ron Souza.
Speaker 1:They helped me get to be the musician I am today and, of course, my cousin T. His nickname was T Wills. He was a bass player at Terry Williams, a real brilliant musician. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I learned a lot from these guys and they helped me become the musician I am today, and one of my goals as a musician was to be able to play with my kids, and my daughter was a very gifted singer. She was obviously needed somewhere else, but she, uh, was obviously going to be our singer. And when my son was a baby, uh, kyron, we put him in our car seat with headphones on. Yeah, he's like a couple months, like you know, five, four, five months old, not very big yet. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But we put him in the middle of our rehearsal spaces with Ron Susan. Um, middle of our rehearsal spaces with Ron Susan. Charlie Robertson is a guitar player I've been playing with for the last 20 years, very gifted guitar player. Yeah, I learned a lot about theory and dynamics with from Charlie and Ron yeah we had a band for years called honey brown.
Speaker 1:Hmm, got the stole the name from Dan, yeah, because he named his band Honey Brown. Yeah, and he said he was being interviewed for a radio show and what's your band's name? And he happened to be standing in front of a Honey Brown poster. Oh. Honey Brown, so that's what he called it. Yeah. And at the time I drank Honey Brown. Yeah, Just out of respect for Dan. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But, when my son was like a baby. I could fucking tell that he was a drummer. Yeah, I was like, holy fuck. Yeah, yes, because I've seen his feet and his hands moving in sync with the music. And I was like, and they saw it too. You know, 14 years later he walked into our rehearsal space and I I prepped him for the songs that I wanted him to learn.
Speaker 1:But I told my bandmates I'm like I think he's ready yeah so he came downstairs and fucking killed it, yeah, and his drumming is so far beyond mine. You know, I'll never say that I'm a wicked drummer. I love drumming and I knew what I was doing. But he is, he's got something there. It's a gift and I don't think he knows it or sees it yet. I don't want to push him. His mom's always like don't you fucking push him too hard, so I let him kind of do his thing. I just give him the instruments he needs and let him. But he goes and plays on his own, and now we've been playing in a couple bands together for since he's 18 now, for 4 years, him, yeah, but he goes and plays on his own and now we've been playing in a couple bands together for since he's 14.
Speaker 1:He's 18 now, for four years now, wow and um. The first time I went to toronka and I came back, we had to be isolated for two weeks yeah, that's right so I was in the basement. That was 2020, right? Yeah, I'd fuck all the doing.
Speaker 1:That's when we're washing our fucking food and yeah walking around like we're doing surgical fucking procedures on everybody, um, but I was stuck in the basement for two weeks and, uh, recorded a bunch of songs and, um, original songs, yeah, and that it inspired me. Being where we were and the people that we met inspired me to record the bass and the guitar and the drums to 16 songs. Yeah, never kept any of the vocal tracks. I'm still not comfortable with my listening to my own singing voice, ah, even though my Haida name Adjuhaya means good singer. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I have a hard time listening to it. It's a confidence thing. It's just weird for me to think yeah. I sound fucking wicked. I don't hear that. I love doing it. For me, singing contrary to what some people think that a singer loves limelight and needs the attention of the people it's the endorphins you actually get from singing and that exchanging of energy is what I'm addicted to. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's so powerful. Sometimes, when music is created, I see colors. Yeah, when music is created, I see colors and um, it's. It's. The energy and the rush and the endorphins I get from playing music is really why I love doing it. Yeah, it's not ego. Yeah, it's not. I like standing in front of 20 000 people yeah the more people, the more energy yeah that's what people don't get.
Speaker 1:It's the energy and the endorphins and the rush that we get from doing it. Yeah, is why we do it. It's so addicting, man. And by no means is it an ego thing, because one thing I I do not have is an ego about anything. I don't think I'm spectacular at anything. I love doing a lot of things. Yeah, there's a difference. Yeah, big time. So this year my son and I are going to record some original songs. Cool, yeah, man, we have.
Speaker 1:There's a sound there yeah and him and I have a synchronicity, yeah with, and I can't explain. You know he's my son, but yeah it's just so tight, yeah, when we're playing and there's such little, I have to show him. Yeah, I just really just the beginning and the endings. You know he gets everything else yeah and I just I learned so much from him still know like he's like my conscience, sometimes Like what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, Fucking idiot. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Him and my wife will be the first and I love it Like they put me in my place so much they see me like sometimes I have a I get a temper problem. Yeah, you know, and that's just from evolving, you know, it's just pushing out the, the bugs. Still right, they're quick to tell me when I'm mentally or physically like you're fucking up. Yeah, stop yeah, you know and it's so important to have that. You know someone, that who knows you that well.
Speaker 2:You know because there's no, they see the twitch. There's no guard. There's no guard. You know with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's no filter. When I'm around them, that's just me, and you know, sometimes it's just like, yeah, I'm fucking physically and mentally drained, you know. Big time. When I see you and Nahan, you know you guys put me in a place mentally without even saying anything. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's something that I felt and my wife noticed it and actually said it. Yeah, she knows me fucking better than anybody. Yeah, noticed it and actually said it. Yeah, she knows me fucking better than anybody. Yeah, and same with my son. You know like they notice when I'm fucking. I guess spiritually sedated yeah yeah, if that's a, that's a term it is now spiritually sedated. Yeah, I could. Yeah, yeah, it's really comfortable. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Where, being spiritually sedated, it feels for me that I can carry on and it's like a force field around me that keeps me positive and keeps me happy. Yeah, and that's why I'm up at eight in the morning, you know, because I knew I needed to talk to you. Yeah. Talking to you is something I don't get to do very often. Yeah. Especially about shit that we like to talk about. Yeah, Because at home I have people to talk to, of course, but yeah. They're just the connection's, not the same yeah. You know.
Speaker 1:Like you know, even though we're not blood related, I feel very connected to you. Yeah. And your beliefs are the same yeah big time. We have the same interests, yeah, and you're very driven with what you're doing. Yeah, with your project. Yeah, and the amount of care that you put out into the world and share with the world about Indigenous tattooing is very. I want to thank you for that. You know. I'm sure other people have, man. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But really, I hope you see what you're doing for people, Because what you're doing is very powerful man, and the way you're sharing it with the community, yeah, and you're lifting a lot of people up. You know, besides me, you know, yeah, there's probably 50 of me out there who feel the same way. What you've done, you know listening to people talk at, uh, the opening yeah that one dude. Yeah, I can't remember his name, but listening to him talk man is so cool to hear how he's evolved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and I'll never get used to this aspect yeah you know I love talking to you, but for for me cameras and yeah, you know I'm performer yeah, it still makes me feel a little uneasy. Yeah, I'm getting used to it. Yeah, you know we'll you used to it. Yeah, I notice, even when I'm watching stuff I find myself moving a lot. That's probably just a nervous twitch, but I feel more comfortable saying how I feel now versus before. I could just do it through music. You give me a guitar. I'll tell you how I feel for four hours. Yeah, big time yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, sit me down in front of a mic and a camera. It's a little different. Yeah, it's a lot different actually, but I think I'm getting it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sorry, my mom's supposed to be coming over.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, worries, yeah your mom's supposed to be coming over, oh no worries. Yeah, your mom's great.
Speaker 2:I got to meet her there oh, she's just saying everybody's still sleeping over at my brother's, so we got more time.
Speaker 1:I thanked her for giving birth to you actually yeah, she told me that gave her a big hug and it's cool to see the support that you have and if I could travel around all the time to these things. Gave her a big hug and it's cool to see the support that you have and if I could travel around all the time to these things. You know, eric Hanna is motherfuckers though man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had a guy tell me that last week when I was tattooing him he actually booked 16 hours over two days Wow and wanted seven large tattoos. He lasted for five of them, oh nice. He turned pretty pale and I was almost puking by the end of the second day. Yeah, he told me that Air Canada. Well, the planes after COVID. They raised their prices because of the lack of planes they had during COVID. Yeah, they discovered that people could actually pay it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they kept it that high. Yeah, it's crazy the amount of money that they charge for us to travel, but it's worth it yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it is worth it, but it does. I mean, it's not to deny the fact that it makes it more difficult, especially for the work that we're doing. And you know, sometimes, um, yeah, that challenge, uh, so I do admit, you know, even though I told everybody to get going and traveling and all that stuff, I also honor the fact that sometimes that's difficult, right yeah, and it's a privilege. We have a privilege to be able to do what we do and go where we go.
Speaker 1:So it's like the halifax tattoo convention. Yeah, I really wish I could go, you know, but I think it'd be selfish for me to go there this time around. Yeah, it'd be good for me. Yeah, you know I'd probably get some business there, but I need to be home, yes, with my wife and my son. And we have a new dog now, corgi puppy, okay, named walter okay, he's real cool yeah yeah he. He was a dog that my daughter always wanted to get when she was alive.
Speaker 1:She always wanted a corgi named walter oh wow, so you got it my wife got it for my son and I for christmas and he's just the cutest little thing. But mental health dog yeah, he's really good at keeping us happy and entertained. Yeah, and you know we're real animal lovers. Yeah. And it's the same type of energy that's created when you have a little animal like that. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, yeah, man Again, I just want to pivot and give you an opportunity to talk about the jewelry that you make as well. You know, these are big things that you do and I would say they overlap and help to support each other in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely Like. I've been making jewelry for over 20 years and I've had the privilege and honor to make money at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and unfortunately, our society puts us in a position where we have to make money to survive and if we can go back to the bartering system, it would be fucking wicked, yeah, but as life has it, we need to make money. Yeah, be fucking wicked, yeah, but as life has it, we need to make money. So between, like, making jewelry, tattooing and playing music, I I managed to to provide for my family and I've been making jewelry for the last over 20 years and I've had some really good teachers and I'd have to say every height of artist, yeah, has taught me something. Yeah, to name a few, you know, like the late Pat Wesley is a very strong influence on a lot of hide artists, my cousin Jimmy Eaton Shaw, who was my first carving teacher, yeah, he used to live in East Van and I would just go visit him and stare at him long enough and bug him, or yeah, and he's like, okay, fuck, I'll show you what I'm doing, yeah I was really interested, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:And um, uh, wayne wilson, he's uh, jim, along with jim edenshaw, norm bentley, uh, jesse sarber, who's a non-indigenous person, who who supplies a lot of people with silver and gold. He's taught me a lot about how to solder jewelry properly. One of my best friends now, jesse Brillin, is phenomenal at representing and chasing his jewelry, his silver and gold pieces.
Speaker 1:They're like $10,000 to $30,000 bracelets, yeah, and it's mind-blowing what he does, like the silver and gold pieces are like $10,000 to $30,000 bracelets, yeah, and it's mind-blowing what he does and he's probably by far the most humble artist that I've known. Yeah, the stuff he does and you have a conversation with him, there's like zero ego yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's just amazing what he does. I don't think he has a website yet, but his name's Jesse Brillen. I don't think he has a website yet, but his name is Jesse Brillin, and he's really inspired me to go on another level with jewelry. You know, I'll never compare myself to him, yeah, but he's inspired me to do different things with jewelry. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And Billy Bellis was another good teacher. I hope I'm not leaving anybody out. I've learned a lot from looking at, obviously, robert Davidson and the late Ben Davidson's work. Yeah, very, very gifted artist. Jim Hart. Yeah, another master carver, my cousin Gujo. He doesn't make silver jewelry, but these are artists that have inspired me. Yeah. Where I learned a lot about inling is I used to be involved in a guitar company called Heideguai Guitars, and this was like 20 years ago now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We used to build acoustic guitars with high art on them. Wow, yeah, it was. Uh, I wish I was the artist now back then, because I was just fucking learning and I looking at some of the shit I did then I was like, holy fuck, really did I use my left hand or my feet, you know? Um, I was just learning in it. We had the company with two. My older brother and I had a company with two non-indigenous Luthiers. Yeah. Rob Bustos and Mark Banto. Yeah.
Speaker 1:In hindsight, you know, I wish some things could have been different. Yeah. The company folded, probably like 16 years ago or something, can't remember when. But uh, they're great guys. Yeah, um, I think the the company was meant to stop when it did. Yeah, because the guitars now are worth a pretty penny and them, uh, my, my brother and I worked at larabee guitars for a year and, um, we um, long story short, we started our own business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mark and rob, we created a partnership yeah they're the experienced luthiers and, uh, I managed to work my way around the shop to learn just about all the aspects of building the guitar. Yeah, um, but by no means was good at it. Yeah, enough to. There are certain things that I could do really well, but I didn't know enough to build a guitar on my own from start to finish yeah and um mark and rob both had um previous companies building electrics and acoustic guitars and, yeah, we felt that it was cool at the time to uh, just to to start this, yeah you know, I think we made like 70 guitars over four years and in the beginning it was more hands-on, with the four of us doing each part.
Speaker 1:But we quickly discovered that we needed different things to do to make this work productively and Mark and Rob, being the experienced leaf years, handled most of the production. Where I start learning the aspects of art and how we can put hide art on the guitars successfully without appropriating art. Yeah, and to give homage to the artist, at the time I didn't really draw formline art, I didn't really know how to.
Speaker 1:This was over 20 years ago and we used Pat Wesley's. We bought some designs off of him and used CNCnc machines and some aspects of engraving because I was just learning how to carve yeah we did a few with uh like actually hand carving um, but it wasn't meant to be yeah and and it's a tough industry to be in and, uh, if my brother and I were the people we are now yeah then we'd probably still be making them yeah, big time but that was part of the steps of us evolving, yeah, as people.
Speaker 1:Yeah and uh, I don't regret at all being partners with mark and rob. They're great people and very talented people yeah you know, um, I'd be lying to you saying if I wouldn't want to do it again. You know, I think it'd be cool maybe to make a couple a year with these guys. Yeah, I still remember how to do everything that I did then yeah, uh, just better at it now yeah, and jewelry for me nowadays.
Speaker 1:I've had carpal tunnel surgery on both wrists oh, oh, wow, a few years back. Tattooing doesn't hurt them, yeah, thank goodness. But now when I make jewelry, it's a different pushing motion.
Speaker 1:There's a lot more force coming from the center of your hand. I can't do it as long as I used to, yeah, but I use a lot of the techniques. I use a lot of the techniques that because I went to the American School of Luthier in Healdsburg, california, for guitar designing and inlaying with a guy named Larry Robinson who does stuff. Then he used to do a lot of Fender and Gibson's custom inlaying like $100,000 guitar and he taught me how to inlay really well and so I use that in jewelry making now and so I really like inlaying with shell and, um, just try to use other aspects of of uh, of uh, art, yeah, to include with jewelry and, yeah, kind of fusing two together, yeah, so, between jewelry, tattooing and playing music, um, I kind of some sometimes like to do all three in a day yeah very rewarding, you know, yeah, but um, when I'm at home now, I kind of play off of what my family's doing yeah
Speaker 1:and, uh, go and do the shit I want to do in between that. Because for for me, now is before I was always I gotta get downstairs and make money, I gotta go carve, you know. And now, when I go home, I just, you know, sit around and tell my wife, you know, sees me sitting around too long, shouldn't you be doing something? Yeah, but just the opportunity for me to be there for them, yeah, where it gets to the point where they want me to get up and do something yeah you know, yeah, I'll give them the time that they need with you know yeah whether they want me around or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do the things I was supposed to do as a, as a partner, and and my son and I are really close. We have a very tight bond yeah he loves fishing. I think that's a gene that he got from my dad and a couple of my brothers. Yeah, you know fishermen. Um, I know how to play ice hockey. Yeah, I didn't know how to fish or run a boat. Yeah, like oh, it's easy you know, it's real simple.
Speaker 1:You know about, like, playing drums and singing is easy for me yeah you know, running a boat may be easy, but no one's fucking ever showed me how to do it yeah.
Speaker 1:So we got him a boat a couple years ago and it's still sitting there because I have no fucking clue how to use it, or you know, and, um, even if you know how to use a boat really well, there's still things that could go wrong. Yeah, big time. And for those reasons, I really want to my son to learn how to use these boat properly. And but, him and I, uh, we see a lot of concerts together, we play music together, and yeah, we have a very tight bond, you know, like I, like I said, he's sometimes my conscience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes it's too close. Yeah, it's like talking to myself in the mirror you know, but 99% of the time they're right. Yeah. It's that 1%. They're wrong where I'm doing sound or something I'm like no no, no, you're wrong. Yeah, where I'm doing sound or something. I'm like no no, no, you're wrong. Yeah, but 99% of the time their advice and their outlook on me is right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I've learned now the last couple of years is reflecting what these tattoos are that Julius, maura and Q gave me. And is that right? Yeah, yeah, q's side and Julius' side, oh yeah, but these tattoos for me, as you know, with the Mahdi, the significance and the meaning behind them is very strong. Yeah, there's something else I want to bring up after this. I needed to let my daughter go and Mate the Tahitian. Yeah. And two. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The first time we went there. I was hanging out at the bus yeah you know, I don't want to say what we were doing there but, we're hanging out every night and they really helped me through that transition.
Speaker 1:The first time I went to new tolonga and I didn't know anybody, we passed around the guitar as well as other things and shared the evening and they helped me to start to evolve, to let her go and to learn how to let her go. Two guys I've never met in my life, yeah, and I was so connected with them, you know yeah the whole time they're there.
Speaker 1:The first week I was every night, you know, and they just our conversations really helped me, yeah, prepare myself to let her go. And then the last time I was there, when I got this, I was finally able to do that and it's a hard thing to do. I still have a hard time, but these tattoos were meant to listen more. Yeah, and to absorb what people are saying, not just to listen, to respond, but to help them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And to evolve from that and to pass that on to my son and other people. Yeah. And the significance of markings can do so much for you if you allow them to that reminder every day of being that person who you want to be, and when you forget, when you feel yourself slipping. When I look in the mirror again, it brings me right back to that place. And that moment I got it.
Speaker 1:It keeps me fucking strong man, and for me it's so important to be a good listener. Some people block people out with tattoos, put headphones on and there's two separate worlds. I can't and never will do that. Yeah, I need that connection. I need to know they're okay. I need to ask them every fucking 15 minutes are you okay? Yeah you know, because what they're going through physically yeah uh, for during that tattoo, mentally and spiritually is just as hard yeah big time and not only do.
Speaker 1:You got to provide them with a spiritual and mental support. You got to make that there, make sure their physical being is you know, you want them puking or passing out, and yeah, and if you're not talking to them and helping them move through this process, it's. I don't feel that it's complete. Yeah, and I can't separate myself from the client and me. There has to be a connection there yeah 100 because they're getting it, you know, for a reason. Yeah, and to understand that reason yeah helps me as well.
Speaker 1:The exchanging of energy is so important and and every tattoo from me is like that. And some artists I don't want to say don't give a shit, but they don't want that connection. They put on a blinder and they don't even talk to you. There's people who have non-Indigenous people and I have to say it's non-indigenous people sometimes and I've gotten tattoos where I've waiting for the, the enlightenment yeah you know like show me your mana you know, show me your inner chi I want to know about you.
Speaker 1:I need to, I need to feel your energy, and it's not there, and I think, for me, that that's, um, it's just as important as the tattoo. Yeah, yeah, 100 percent yeah, for for me, music and art keeps me evolving and keeps me who I want to be yeah, you know, yeah, big time oh and it's just so rewarding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just can't get enough of it. Yeah, and I don't sleep much. I sleep maybe four or five hours a night. The other day I slept six hours and it felt like holy fuck, did I sleep all day? Yeah, I slept an extra hour and it felt weird, you know. Yeah, every once in a while I'll get too tired and sleep like maybe eight hours. Yeah, it doesn't happen often, but um, I've always been a good napper. Yeah, like 6 pm 20 minutes, I'm good to go till four or five in the morning. Yeah, now, one thing that drives my wife nuts because I could sit here. You know, if I'm leaning against the wall, sitting up straight, no one's talking, and I could fall asleep for five minutes and feel recharged. Yeah, you know, and it's literally like if I have five minutes between a client, I'll close my eyes and that juice is charged again.
Speaker 1:And this is something that I've been used to since I learned, first learning how to carve. Yeah, continue to learn how to carve, and it's just uh if I didn't have to sleep yeah, man, I'd get a lot done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hell yeah yeah, it'll be that time where I can just record in silence, you know. But yeah, my goals for this year are um, to record, uh, you know, maybe an ep EP with my son. I don't want to say 10 or 12 songs because I have enough material, but you've got to be realistic about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And another thing that I wanted to talk to you about is something that you inspired me to do a couple years ago with what you're doing with Urination, where you created a written language, and I was talking do a couple years ago with what you're doing with urination, yeah, where you created a written language. Yeah, and I was talking to a couple people at the your opening about this as well. And one thing I've admired about the mali and the pacific island tattooing is a lot of the markings have uh meaning yeah every symbolism behind it represents either a god, something has to do with nature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's always a meaning behind every line in detail. The koredo that the mari give you when they draw the design on you reflects onto this the, the significance of their uh written language, of their art, and one thing that the west coast form line, like the form line art that we have in british columbia, being over like 300 nations in BC alone, everybody has their own form line. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And whether some people can see it or not. A lot of it looks the same, but it's all completely different. Yeah. And what I've been asked a lot in New Zealand when I'm tattooing even like the Maori people that come in and like what does this mean? Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm looking at him with a fucking blank face. I'm like I don't know. You know, like a raven is a raven, an eagle killer whale? We have significance in our art to represent each clan yeah and the form line that shapes each uh animal or being yeah belongs to each clan and or a clan crest yeah there are crests that we have that, um, non-heidi people can't have. Yeah, and it's just. I discovered the same with the mati.
Speaker 1:There's mati art that non-mati get yeah and art that mati get yeah and this is the same with four minor where, uh, some designs belong to chiefs. Yeah, certain clans were like example, like a five fin killer whale or a two fin killer whale in the from the skidigit um, southern end of the island belongs to the skidance clan, which is the clan that I belong to. Um, but the common reality with the questions that when I'm tattooing more people, particularly in new zealand, what are the? What does the detail in the art mean, whether it had a meaning at one point or to now, if it was a meaning, it got lost.
Speaker 1:What I want to do over the next couple of years, with the help, of course, of master carvers, yeah, which, um, julie made a good point when I was talking to her about this the other day that I should look to the carvers, yeah, for the interpretations and the weavers, yeah, just to do research, because I told her that you know the same thing I'm telling you now you know like we need to have some kind of meaning. Yeah, behind all the detail, the secondary and the tertiary designs of the form line, inside the form line, create a written language, like you were doing what you did with your culture yeah and um, with the help of master carvers and uh, your grant writing skills.
Speaker 1:You know I'm gonna get something to do, but I still need a lot of direction from you, and what I'm going to do over the next couple years is create a written language with the help of these master carvers that I mentioned to you yeah to give um meaning. Yeah, and I was actually talking to another client of mine. Uh, she's, she's haida and she's also from the I don't want to say the wrong nation, but she lives in North Van. Yeah.
Speaker 1:She thinks that there was, as well as I do, that it could have got lost along the way.
Speaker 1:And instead of creating just a written language for the Haida people, if we can, collectively in British Columbia, come up with a significance for every deity, even though it's a little different, but it's something that needs to be done a written language needs to be created with form line art to give it more meaning besides it just being a killer whale or a raven, and to have more of a personal. With form line art to give it more meaning besides it just being a killer whale or a raven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to have more of a personal uh tattoo yeah with the koredo that the mari do with their tattoos, where, uh, every tattoo is very individual. Yeah, with their. Yeah, and have that detail that can tell that story. Yeah, because that was like the most common when I was doing finger tattoos on this group of ladies in New. Zealand. Yeah. They all had these tattoos and like, tell us what they mean. And I was just like and I wasn't going to make anything up yeah, and I had to tell them. You know, it's something that is, it's going to evolve. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You anything up? Yeah, and I have to tell them. You know it's something that is it's going to evolve. Yeah, you know I can give you my meaning of what, yeah, it means. But I want to have a collective meaning of what their art means yeah, beyond the form line, yeah, the, and it's important that we have this and um, you inspired me to do that cool 100 and uh, julie was very helpful.
Speaker 1:Uh, she's very helpful with any oh yeah, big time yeah, very powerful woman you know and, uh, her ideas, uh, when I roll them off of her, yeah, to have her interpretation of, yeah, what I want to do is just opens up another portal in my brain and I was like, oh, yeah, that's fucking cool, you know, and, yeah, I think that's yeah. Another thing with the us evolving as artists is, the more people I talk to these things, it just makes me learn more. It's like another fucking door has opened, yeah, of knowledge. You know that big time that I wouldn't have thought of that, you know, and I'll never, fucking ever say I'm good or smarter at anything, you know just a good listener exactly, yeah, and I love what I do and yeah the more questions I ask, the more I learn.
Speaker 1:And yeah, without stepping on anybody's toes. Or yeah, just trying to be the best person that I can be and be the best artist that I can be for for, uh, for the people that I'm tattooing. And, yeah, and be the best person I can be for the people who like me and the people who don't yeah, big time and.
Speaker 1:And I'm okay with both. Any way I can help someone musically, artistically. I love to support young musicians and young artists and not tell them what to do, but just share the stuff that I've been through and the shit that I've been through and that long road where they don't have to take. You know, there's not a shortcut, yeah, but just a smoother road of knowledge, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, yeah, I think that's. You know I've really enjoyed our conversation. I think that's a good spot to start to wind down and you know I've really it is. I can totally see the growth you know in you from you know a couple of years. What was that 2020?
Speaker 1:Our first conversation, our first conversation that we recorded. I was like that little squirrel in Ice Age.
Speaker 2:Then you know, we all started somewhere, right. You know it is a different experience to give your thoughts and your feelings and have it recorded. So yeah, I totally. You know I was there at one time, but I've also been doing this a long time, you know, just interviewing and being on camera. So it just takes time to get used to that.
Speaker 1:But you know, and I honestly can say, the last few years, you know, like you and I've said it before but I'll say it again, like you, nahan and Auntie, linda and and Julius, julie and Q and Daniel, and you know, of course, my wife and my son. Yeah. But that connection I have with you guys has really, really brought me here today. Yeah, you know, and I miss our family in New Zealand very much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it won't be long before we're going back. Well, I still haven't gotten the okay if New Zealand very much. Yeah, won't be long before we're going back, Well.
Speaker 1:I still haven't got the okay, if I can go yet. Yeah, because we have some. We've neglected our house the last 11 years or 15 years I guess it's 15 years now because our daughter got sick when she was five and she's passed away 11 years ago now, so we've neglected a lot of our things that need to be done around our house.
Speaker 1:We have to get a new metal roof yeah we're building a fence for walter, yeah, so he can run free. Yeah, can't fucking catch him, man. His legs are like fucking six inches long open field. Forget it you're not catching them.
Speaker 1:He's done yeah, we have to fucking, you know, yeah, but I haven't got the okay from my boss yet about going there. I really hope I can go yeah but we need to build a fence and a deck and we need to paint our house this summer and, yeah, the last uh few years of going there have been worth every penny. But again, I've got to listen to my wife, yeah, and her decisions, 99% of the time, are accurate. Yeah. And I just can't imagine not going there. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:It's just part of my soul's routine now, yeah, you know, yeah, if, if I can work my ass off, uh, this summer, like I'm doing now, then uh, hopefully we can go, then you can make it yeah yeah, because I want my legs tattooed yeah, well, I appreciate your time and I thank you for coming to visit with me on the transport marks podcast.
Speaker 2:Um, I look forward to a follow-up in the future and we can follow the growth that you do.
Speaker 1:You know, uh, and do another interview, you know, in another couple of years yeah, thanks, man, but uh, you can reach me at hideaink2ksca and, um, I'm I'm here to to help, yeah, and I'm here to learn, yeah, and I'm here to help. Yeah, and I'm here to learn, yeah, and I'm here to share positive energy and create good energy. Yeah and again. I thank you for your time, dion, and again everybody that I've mentioned in this today life is short man. Yeah, it's shorter than you know it. Yeah big time.
Speaker 1:You never know the last time you're going to look at the moon or the sun. Yeah. The last time you're going to talk to anybody, and some people just don't realize that. Yeah. Your life could change in a second. Yeah yeah, your life could change in a second, yeah and um, it's.
Speaker 1:It's important to embrace and love what's around you. Yeah, and live for the moments. Yeah, don't let money or anything like that take control of how you think or you feel. I think it's important that money can always be made, yeah. And the second, that you let it control your mind and your life. You're not evolving, yeah, you know, and I just hope that people can to realize how short life is. Yeah, and appreciate it. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:We're good Awesome.
Speaker 1:I love you man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love you too. Hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me, uh, through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, uh, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Uh, following this, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. We talk about the connection between ancestral tattooing practices and the revival of our ancestral communities and artistic practices. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.